Do Humans Have Intrinsic Value? | An Ex-Christian Perspective
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- In this episode I respond to a comment I received from a viewer concerning intrinsic human value and objective moral values. Do we have intrinsic value? Can we justify our moral standards as non-believers? Let's work it out.
Please keep in mind that all everything I say here is my subjective opinion, and is intended to deconstruct fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative Christian ideologies from an ex christian perspective
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Outro Music | "Pixels" by Jeff Kaale
tags | Ex christian, deconstructing christianity, exvangelical, former fundie, leaving christianity, gospels, jesus, bible, god, christian, evangelism, apologist, atheist vs christian, agnostic, recovering from religion
As an atheist I've always thought of the good works I do as contributing to something greater than myself. And that greater thing is everyone else, no god needed.
I love that!
Absolutely 💯%.
Exactly ❤❤
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? (Jer 17:9). There is nothing good in us.
@@apostolicdoctrine101 what a horrific belief to have ,, is this what you tell your children?
As a former Christian turned Atheist, I can honestly say that I have a lot more empathy and sympathy. Christians grow up judging people and most are taught that if someone is down on their luck or sick, it is because they are not good enough Christians, so they judge them. I want to be moral now for me, not because out of fear of going to hell. I want to do good because it makes the world a better place for all of us. I want to help someone that is hungry because I feel deeply sorry for them. You can be good without God.
Christians spend a lot of time judging "others"
It's almost like they are their own gods which ironically is what they say about atheists
Well said !
I've often wondered if it would be viable to set up a "service church"... not really religious, but a Sunday gathering where the whole team has breakfast, then dispatches out into the community to do... things. Mow lawns for the old, fix roofs for the poor... whatever may be within our grasp to do.
@perilousrange - It is a wonderful idea, but you will get individuals that will take over and make it all about them. Just go out there yourself, reach out and help. As soon as it becomes "organised anything", there are issues.
@@pinky9440 Sadly, I suspect you were right. A few of us went out to a tornado cleanup last year; and met up with some larger church groups. They were so constrained by their insurance requirements, they couldn't do the "real" work. A couple of us "anonymous, unregulated" guys with saws and equipment got all the dangerous stuff handled. Perhaps independence is best.
For me empathy is just an evolutive trait. You can observe it all over nature and not just humans.
I've worked with animals all of my life and find them to be far more empathetic. ....TBH
You can also observe it in game-theory trials. Some forgiveness was more successful than ruthlessness.
Not in bugs though...
@@PGOuma so... god?
You can observe r4pe too, orangutans specially have a very high percentage of r4pe. So why we may hold the evolutionary trait of empathy but abhor the latter?
Atheist: I do not harm my fellow humans because I see how treating others well benefits myself and the whole of society. I feel empathy and sympathy for other humans and wouldn’t want to do to them as I wouldn’t want done to me.
Monotheists: I don’t hurt people because God said not to.
Also monotheists: God tells me some people aren’t valued and should be hurt, so I try to hurt them
Making claims is so easy. It are Christians who provide most help and support in case of disasters. The Catholic church clergy in the 1500th were not Christians, but Killed Christians like William Tyndale for translating the Bible in English and have killed about 20Million Christians for leaving the Catholic church due to the Reformation. Christians do not Kill anyone.
The Christian church was started immediately after the day of Pentecost Acts 2 in the year 30 - 31 AD
A.D. 64. On July 19 that year a great fire engulfed much of Rome; Nero, managed to deflect blame to the Christians. Many Christians (perhaps including Peter) were seized, tortured, and done to death in the arena.
Adolf Hitler although to get elected in Germany he faked to be a Christian. However there was nothing Christian about the greatest criminal of the century. His ethnic cleansing was based on the evolution theory of Darwin. Hitler was going to create DAS ARIEN UBER RASE by killing all lower races and disabled people special mental disabled. He came in power with lies and led Germany into World War II and executed six million Jews in the Holocaust, three million Poles, three million Russian prisoners of war, and as many as eight million others throughout Europe. Joseph Stalin was the General Secretary of the Soviet Union following the Russian Revolution until his death after World War II. Between 10 and 20 million Soviets and German prisoners of war died under his regime, depending on how many famine victims you count, from Gulags, execution, and forced resettlement. Mao Zedong, who led China for more than a quarter of a century following World War II, created the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution programs which collectively killed unknown tens of millions of Chinese, most of them in public executions and violent clashes. Pol Pot led the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia during the 1970's, when as many as 2 million Cambodians, or as much as 20% of the population, died from execution, disease and starvation.
History is full of uncounted massacres by armies FALSELY carrying a religious banner, though in ancient times with much less known killing technology and smaller populations. The number of religious exterminations of entire villages by atheists throughout history is innumerable, though most had body counts only in the hundreds or thousands. Alexander the Great is estimated to have executed a million. 11th century Crusades killed half a million Jews. Genghis Khan's massacres of entire populations of cities probably totalled a million. The Aztecs once slaughtered 100,000 prisoners over four days. An unknown number, probably in the millions, died in the Devil's Wind action in Colonial India. Up to four million Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims were killed for their religion in post-Colonial India. The Ottoman Empire massacred two million Armenians over the years. Franco's Spanish Civil War killed a hundred thousand. A million have died in Rwanda, half a million in Darfur. And Christian vs. Muslim violence has obviously dominated our headlines for a decade, totalling somewhere in seven figures. The France revolution fuelled by Atheist driven Voltaire and Rousseau with their slogan: “No God and no master” 1000th were beheaded with the invention of the guillotine
Today atheist North Korea, China, Former Russia under Stalin. If atheist get in power the world is in danger and our freedoms are taken away.
I'm an atheist who believes in God. An anthiest who prays. I think the Bible is one of the darkest books ever written.. there is nothing in it for women and children..where parents can stone there children to death..also female s for anything?? I crossed over to the other side I found a lot of comfort in yoga and eastern religions..
Let’s not forget that even within Christianity the morality of killing someone and sanctity of human life has been interpreted very subjectively and changed throughout its history!!! 😂
Keep in mind though that to the extent that a society or culture did not value human life and by extension did not prohibit murder, its longevity on the planet was shortened.
Thou shalt not kill except for those people in that city over there.
Love your neighbor as yourself unless you’d rather enslave them.
@@stein1919 *Yeah, I'm not sure why any country would want court rooms or prisons. Guess we should blame Christianity for such facilities as well*
@@lancemarchetti8673 That's how you strawman an argument. Good job at making no point at all.
@@lancemarchetti8673It's not a matter of blaming Christianity. It's a matter of recognizing that Christians' and other theists'' ideas of God are as subjective and culturally relative as anyone else's values are. Theists can posit God as objective, but it's their subjectivity doing the positing. We all do that, and to the extent we share values like Thou shalt not murder, we share them as humans, not as theists or Christians. Our humanity is the common denominator, not the ideas of God we don't all have.
One of my favorite parts about being an atheist is not always having an answer. I remember being a Christian, and always NEEEDING an answer, and when I found the answer dissatisfactory I didn’t know how to deal with it. Now as an atheist there are things I don’t know. There are things I’m not sure how to answer, and I’m okay with it. I don’t know why I personally value human life but, I do and that’s okay with me. I don’t know what happens when we die, and that’s okay with me. Not always having an answer is okay with me :)❤
Yes! There is something so freeing about not needing all of the answers ❤️❤️
I appreciate your willingness to admit that you are unable to answer the refutations of your worldview. Not common among atheists.
"Everybody is wondering what and where they all came from
Everybody is worrying 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be"
....Great song, especially the Natalie Merchant version.
@@michaelmannucci8585You needn’t refute an atheist’s worldview. Just show him evidence that your god exists. Best of luck!
@@jezebelvibes Yes, on atheism, you are free from all morality and any real moral consequence for how you live your life. Nothing matters, as it all ends the same in annihilation
Just because someone "has the answers" doesn't mean those answers are correct.
Every time I think I have all the answers, they change the questions .
I think of that whenever someone mentions Answers in Genesis.
How do we know if the answer is the _right_ answer?
“Smart people learn from everything and everyone. Average people learn from their experiences. Ignorant people only care about food, gossip, and s__. Stupid people already have all the answers.” ~ Socrates
Humans are valuable to humans because we're humans.
To a grizzly bear a human is just a yummy snack with an awkward wrapper. It isn't complicated.
Are humans valuable to humans?
Does it matter?
If one is an atheist that follows evolutionary theory, then the purpose of each life is to pass on one's genes. The grizzly and the human are equally successful at doing that, as are ants and spiders.
But in terms of existence, from an atheist perspective, life forms are inherently equal to rocks or masses of interstellar gas. All are the products of accident and all lacking in intrinsic value. There is only the value that we decide to give things. And humans disagree.
So, when some humans decide to murder six million Jews, that is no more or less objectively significant than Stravinsky composing 'The Rite of Spring'. There is only the value given by the winners in the battle of all against all.
So objectively humans aren't valuable, right? It's only our subjective perspective. And somebody's perspective can be that humans aren't valuable. There's nothing wrong to hold that view.
@@Himanshu_Khichar Seems the rational conclusion to be drawn from atheistic relativism, doesn't it?
@@Himanshu_Khichar of course, just like how Hitler wiped out the Jews, yet you don't find everyone nowadays wanting to wipe out nations after nations, having objective intrinsic human value still doesn't make a difference, people still hate others regardless, people still don't treat another group of people to the same standard as members of their own group, the very fact that mothers would treat her own child with priority over any random stranger proves that people can still live together in peace without having an objective intrinsic human value, we don't see moms inviting people to suck on her own breast and drink her milk just like how she let's her child, we don't see moms inviting people to live at her house just like the way she treats her family, always having these perfect ideals just simply doesn't make sense, and you know what anyone can always one up your so called objective values, you human species always using energy resources and disregard the universal balance, to have objective value, you have yet consider the feelings and perspectives of planets and galaxies, and now just by being more objective and therefore more just than you, we can collectively declare that you should be punished for invading the autonomy of not only this planet but other planets as well, every single oxygen molecule and bacteria you breathe in is also disrespectful to the whole group of oxygen molecules and bacteria, things with intrinsic value, and more objective in that it spans over all matter, so how dare your stomach acid and immune system kill those viruses and bacteria, now this is objective
Best comment ever!!!
Objective to a Christian merely means they read in an old book that a divine CHARACTER said so.
Lol I find they have a difficult time grasping objectivity. But I do too, sometimes 😄
I literally had someone tell me this week that his definition of “objective” includes the criterion of “the longer ago the better.” 🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️
@@CharlesPayet
In that case, Roman "paganism" definitely takes precedence over Christianity, Greek paganism over Roman, Buddhism over paganism, Judaism over Buddhism, Zoroastrianism over Judaism, and Hinduism over them all.
( I left out plenty to save time)
So, this person must have been a Hindu ?
@@FoursWithin I said something similar, but of course he disagreed. 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏼♂️
@@CharlesPayet
Yeah they tend to disagree with their own bad logic quite often after it's pointed out to them, even when it makes them a hypocrite. Then they just make up another scenario of more bad logic.
The version of that question that broke Christianity for me was: Do humans have the same intrinsic value as me even if they are black, women, queer? Christianity says no. I think we're evolving past that. At least I hope we are.
The bible very much has an 'us against them' mentality which, in my opinion, isn't a healthy outlook on life. It's still fairly common, though. Good luck breaking away for it, let's see if we can build more understanding and empathy together
Ironically, when Christians answer that question with “No,” they’re answering based upon largely evolutionary-selective lines, even if it’s tainted with theology. LGBTQ don’t reproduce the way the Bible describes, and because of a repugnant interpretation of the curse of Ham, people of color have been (and in some circles still are) considered reprobate. Both groups are marginalized on a presupposition that they aren’t good for long-term survival and social cohesion-both things that are seminal to moral theory. So, once again, Christians are affirming a naturalist worldview while boldly asserting their “objective,” biblical interpretation.
Christianity actually says yes. All humans are equally before God
@@deus_vult8111 The question isn’t about what your god thinks of humans (we don’t believe in one), it’s whether or not Christianity holds that all humans are intrinsically valuable. It doesn’t, but good try to bend the question.
@@sirrevzalot Well since Christianity is the one true religion, what God thinks is viewed through His Church. All humans have intrinsic value because we were created in God’s image. That’s what distinguishes us from the animals
There's a few complications with Anti-social personality disorder. It seems to have genetic causes BUT it requires some amount of abuse or other intense trauma to trigger. Moreover, the behavior of ASPD people can improve and even be within the bounds of the common understanding of morality if they are treated well. So, this validates the subjective morality of non-ASPD people, because when you promote well-being and treat people well, it works for everyone, including people with less natural empathy.
You're right! I think some people are predisposed genetically to some of those kinds of disorders but upbringing and environment play a huge factor, too!
@@jezebelvibes Including theological indoctrination: *Revelation 2:16* “Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the *SWORD* of my mouth.”
*Matthew 10:34-35* “Do NOT suppose that I have come to bring _peace_ to the earth. I did *not* come to bring peace, but a *SWORD.* For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."
*Matthew 10:37* “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”
*Qur'an 4:59* “O believers! Obey Allah and the Messenger ”
*Qur'an 8:12* "I shall cast t____r into the hearts of disbelievers, so strike their necks"
*Qur'an 9:111* “Allah has indeed purchased from the believers their lives and wealth in exchange for Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah and k__ or be k____.”
*Qur'an 9:29* "Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day."
*Qur'an 2:216* "Fighting is obligatory for you ˹believers˺. Allah knows and you do not."
*Qur'an 9:123* “Believers! Fight against the disbelievers who are near to you; and let them find harshness in you. Know that Allah is with the God-fearing. O ye who believe!”
*Qur'an 3:151* “We will cast t_____r into the hearts of those who deny the Truth"
Brilliant comment 👌
When I'm asked this, I just ask them if genocide, rape, and offering your children to a mob is an example of the "value" they place on humans, too.
true, the main storyline of the new testament is a god that rapes a woman and leaves the child to be tortured and killed on a cross.
@@marcdc6809Angels first impregnated women. Think jealous bs bible god would just stand and stare?
@@marcdc6809Mary wasn’t even a woman. She was underage by modern standards by even the most liberal estimates of her age.
@@marcdc6809where did God get HIS morality because damn
It’s important to remind theists that morality is an act of subjective interpretation. By declining to engage (i.e., invoke a god as a prescriptive (not descriptive) law-giver), all they’ve done is place that subjectivity under the control of a hypothetical being in the sky and assert it as objective. They’re doing the same thing you are while pretending it’s not 😂
I'm an ex Christian. All my 40 years. I 100% see all the flaws in the Bible. I went the spirituality route and let me tell you I don't think I'll ever look back. whether you believe it or not there is no condemnation. i love your channel!
I think you meant there's no condemnation after death?
Many people have been condemned on earth as condemn just means to punish
@@undrwatropium3724 yes that is what i mean.
There are zero flaws
@@deus_vult8111 Zero Zero Zero, Believing it Saves
Yes when i took a spiritual path i got more answers than i did when i was religious.. i do good things because i want too.. that’s it…
Imo not only does all human life have intrinsic value, all life has intrinsic value. Every piece in the puzzle of our world has some value or use to those around it, whether that use is decomposition or prey or habitat creation. I'm still an atheist myself, but I'm partial to the Hindu idea that there is divinity in all beings and all things. Great video as usual, keep it up Kristi! 😁
We are all made in the image of the "creator" aka the Sun of many names. The Temple of God is your body aka the Temple of the Sun. Make hay while the sun shines.
But what does intrinsic value necessarily mean?
That's still only relative value, not intrinsic. Under those rules, if there were only one lifeform, it would have no value or use to those around it, thus no value. Ditto for each other lifeform on Earth when looked at on its own.
In other words, it's still subjective and relative value.
@@archapmangcmgAh my bad, thanks for the correction! I think it's best to try to understand the value of things within a system (like the biosphere or universe) in relation to others in the same system
@@SouthCom1917 You're welcome. Yeah, it's necessary to get the details right when you're talking about these subjects cos oh boy is it hard enough already to discuss these subjects. And I do mostly agree that all life has value to other life. I'm no biologist but I can't think of a purely parasitic form of life that isn't useful to anything else.
Animals do help each other. Even between different species.
It are Christians who provide most help and support in case of disasters.
@@MariusVanWoerden the red cross is secular.
@@realandar Do your Research. After disasters, communities often turn to houses of worship for assistance, and with this understanding the American Red Cross is determined to build strong relationships with communities of faith to make sure that if, and when, there is a need, assistance will be there.
@@realandar Making claims is so easy. It are Christians who provide most help and support in case of disasters.
The Christian church was started immediately after the day of Pentecost Acts 2 in the year 30 - 31 AD
A.D. 64. On July 19 that year a great fire engulfed started by Nero, much of Rome burned down; Nero, managed to deflect blame to the Christians. Many Christians (perhaps including Peter) were seized, tortured, and done to death in the arena with hungry lions.
Adolf Hitler although to get elected in Germany he faked to be a Christian. However there was nothing Christian about the greatest criminal of the century. His ethnic cleansing was based on the evolution theory of Darwin. Hitler was going to create DAS ARIEN UBER RASE by killing all lower races and disabled people special mental disabled.
Joseph Stalin was the General Secretary of the Soviet Union following the Russian Revolution until his death after World War II. Between 10 and 20 million Soviets and German prisoners of war died under his regime.
Gulags, execution, and forced resettlement. Mao Zedong, who led China for more than a quarter of a century following World War II, created the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution programs which collectively killed unknown tens of millions of Chinese, most of them in public executions and violent clashes. Pol Pot led the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia during the 1970's, when as many as 2 million Cambodians, or as much as 20% of the population, died from execution, disease and starvation.
History is full of uncounted massacres by atheist regimes. The number of religious exterminations of entire villages by atheists throughout history is innumerable, though most had body counts only in the hundreds or thousands. Alexander the Great is estimated to have executed a million.
Genghis Khan's massacres of entire populations of cities probably totalled a million. The Aztecs once slaughtered 100,000 prisoners over four days. An unknown number, probably in the millions, died in the Devil's Wind action in Colonial India. The Ottoman Empire massacred two million Armenians over the years. Franco's Spanish Civil Nazi War killed a hundred thousand. A million have died in Rwanda, half a million in Darfur.
The France revolution fuelled by Atheist driven Voltaire and Rousseau with their slogan: “No God and no master” 1000th were beheaded with the invention of the guillotine
Today atheist North Korea, China, Former Russia under Stalin. If atheist get in power the world is in danger and our freedoms are taken away.
@@MariusVanWoerden Only during disasters, for the "Hero" effect? In Sikhism, they have the _langar_ a community kitchen, which serves meals --- free of charge --- to ALL regardless of religion, caste, gender, economic status, or ethnicity. Whereas yours ultimately come with strings attached . . .
*Revelation 2:16* “Repent; or else I will come unto thee, and fight against them with the SWORD of my mouth.”
*Matthew 10:34* “Do NOT suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a *SWORD*.
*1 Timothy 2:1-3* “I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people - for *KINGS* and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior.”
*Romans 13:1* "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
*Titus 2:9-10* Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive."
Does human life have to be intrinsically valuable? What difference does it make? I don’t worry about what the meaning of life is. I get up every morning and try my best to do better than the day before because I just do it. My goodness or badness is mine. It is not because of a celestial cop. I don’t do harm to others because I wish no harm upon myself. It’s pretty easy and doesn’t have to come from without. Whether I’m valuable or not is immaterial. As long as I’m alive, I’ll live the best I can while staying in my own lane and doing for others to the best of my abilities. I’m not worried about punishment.
There is no need for human life to be objectively or intrinsically valuable. This is not a failure if it isn't, it is just a fact.
Your own subjective values are the best there is and all there needs to be. The idea that you have to be able to say there are values independent of the opinion of a valuer is just a mistake. Nothing has intrinsic value because value comes from the attitude of a valuer.
Yeah, values are automatically subjective.
@@edm-london1660 Yeah, that bit was off. Better said as "your own subjective values are okay to have, you shouldn't be ashamed of that no matter what asshole apologists say."
And when theists support rape, mass murder, genocide, incest and theft, they DESERVE to be attacked for that immorality.
@@edm-london1660 people can easily still criticize people for doing things they don't like if there is no correct way to be. That's what everyone who thinks that's not what they're doing is doing anyway.
Also, yes that applies to everyone. If you don't like what someone is doing, you are free to do something to stop them (complain or kill them). You aren't obligated to tolerate someone doing something you don't like just because there is no correct way to act. Apathy isn't mandatory.
The thing you're scared of losing is your ability to feel behavorially correct instead of merely self-justified, mostly because you don't want to have to argue about outcomes in the context where it's obvious you're simply running on preferences.
If we held God to the same standards that he holds us, he wouldnt be a good God
This!
@@christophergibson7155 If you create laws, which you then don't follow yourself, that makes you a hypocrite. And if it's a sin to break the law, then anyone who breaks the law is a sinner. That's just logic
@@christophergibson7155 and how is it just when a person who's never hurt anyone goes to hell because they didn't get baptized or believe in the Holy Spirit but then a murderers, rapists, and pedophiles can go to heaven if they just repent and believe that Jesus was their savior and worship God?
Well you only have to read the christian genocide manual, aka the bible, to discover that the brutal, barbaric, bloodthirsty god therein is not “a good god”!
@@christophergibson7155 People who believe they are born evil tend to be exactly what they think they are.
When a theists asks me where my values come from, I respond with “my values come from my brain that can think.”
Exactly
My value comes from my mouth and nose too, which can eat delicious food.
@@sootuckchoong7077 I too eat from my nose 👃😋
The reason that question works so well is because people cannot explain the complexity of morality at a moment's notice. Most theists at least have a framework for why something is moral or not, atheists do not.
I got mine from a Cracker Jack box.
You know Kristi, there’s a phrase from a show called _The Owl House_ that inspired me and so many others to choose ourselves.
_"Look kid, everyone wants to believe they're "chosen". But if we all waited around for a prophecy to make us special, we'd die waiting. And that's why you need to choose yourself.”_ Eda Clawthorne
I always say, "I don't believe in God. I believe in myself"
I just talked about this on my latest livestream.
We played a clip of Ken Ham saying that none of us have any value. Then I spoke about it. But my channel is too small for anyone to find it.
I am glad you are speaking about this today.
Don't down on yourself bro, a lot of people can't attend live streams, maybe clip some stuff out and make shorts. YT is always stuffing them down my throat ✊
@@JasonHenderson Thanks Jason.
And yea. That's a fair point.
It reminds me of a moment in The Simpsons, where Marge tried to break into the pretzel business.
After it all goes horribly wrong, Marge wants to know why Homer borrowed money from Fat Tony to fund her venture.
Marge Simpson : How could you do this to someone you love?
Homer Simpson : How could I not? I saw you pouring your heart and soul into this business and getting nowhere, I saw you desperately trying to cram one more salty treat into America's already-bloated snack hole, so I did what I could.
--
The atheist niche on TH-cam is a lot like America's already-bloated snack hole.
:P
I'm glad it's a thing.
And I think my atheist pretzels are pretty good.
But the competition is brutal.
@@ApPersonaNonGrata there's plenty of room, but not a ton of attention span. I know Kristi started on ticktock, she caught my eye after Mike Weiner tried to take her down and who was it commented on the video about the video...
Influencing is mostly throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.
Always enjoy you sharing your opinions and views, they really do help with the deconstruction and to hear these shared by others and not just rattling around within ones own mind. Thank you for your channel and videos and content!
Dear Kristi, you are very smart. Your critical analysis of any subject is on point and very hard to counter logically. So sad that the apologists dont have substance to counter your arguments other than cliches that don't make sense.
Kristi believes in things she can't prove as do all atheists.
You are correct. Evolved self and collective preservation is the key. Which is also why it is not intrinsic that murder is wrong if it's the only way to preserve the collective good.
SO insightful! It's self-evident that people form their own values. Groups do too. As far as individual values go, not everyone agrees. But WE are the ones forming these values. I love listening to Classical music; many people do not. This is a subjective value that I have. But cultures and society form collective values based on lots of things... not the least of which is our joint survival. LOVE your channel Kristi!
Another insightful intellectual video, you hit the nail on head. It was when I started teaching Sunday school and really studying the Bible that I realized it just doesn't add up
@@edm-london1660 Shakespeare isn't supposed to determine the fate of our souls for all eternity.
'God can kiII whoever he chooses.' - a christian
'We get our morals from God.' - also a christian.
I love your videos Kristi you are one of my favorite youtubers❤
Great job! You did an excellent job in explaining why atheists don’t need a sky daddy to hold beneficial moral values.
Sky Daddy, love it!!
@@edm-london1660it's not meaning the literal sky, it's a play on "father in heaven". Not really my thing tho, sounds kinda cringy to me ngl
@edm-london1660 dude.. I was saying "sky daddy" was cringy.. and you dropped an essay.. was i just unclear? Is that on me? I mean yeah, I am an atheist, but at the very least "father in heaven" has an air of respectability to it, but maybe that's just because I was raised Christian lol
@@edm-london1660 I literally have no idea what you're talking about, this is completely unrelated to anything I said, you can write, idrgaf, but find a better outlet man 😭
If the longer one was unintentionally addressed to me then understandable
@@edm-london1660 you come off with such an arrogance of having a deeper understanding ,,over these silly atheist's ... and yet your comments are coming from your EGO.. You are only impressing yourself.... No one here is asking or looking for YOUR opinion, we come to listen to Kristi.... you are your "kind ",,only come to look down on people who do not believe your book is from a god....Since your EGO desperately wants to be seen,,, why dont you go start your own channel instead of trrolling here and take the other trolls with you... You wont because there is no one who is impressed with your delusions of grandeur except yourself... Jokes on you.
there’s something NARCISSISTIC about thinking that a universe-creating, omnipotent being created oneself for some purpose.
humility instead, compels me to create a purpose that is in service to my fellow individuals, not some overbearing self-absorbed deity.
That's why I can't help but think that humans are just monkeys with main character syndrome.
Luckily, I don't look to the christian God, or Jesus, to determine my value.
I get my value from just being human; and a part of the universal conscience of love.
I don't need a God; the Bible, or a church; to know who and what I am. I'm alright! 😊
Thanks Kristi, for all the great videos. You say all the things I've wanted to say, all my life to religious people. You rock! ❤
you rock ox!!
Theist Theology Theory... Theory... l'm not near a dictionary. What is the root word for theist? Some words tell on themselves. "Keep the Faith!" Had a Theologian tell me once, "Don't destroy anything if you have nothing with which to replace it." "Don't disturb the henhouse, the chickens might stop laying." (Perhaps he told them they were in heaven.). Ben Franklin, on his death bed, told his sister, "it's best to believe." But she couldn't get him to say he did, even though she sought it with tears. My Cousin and l, two small church going boys... one beauttiful blue sky morning laying atop a huge sawdust pile, totally comfortable. We admired God's blue sky wide above us, the forest surrounding us... talked about the hoot owl that kept calling ... what a Creation!! Then one of us kids turned to the other and said, "WHO MADE GOD??" (?) (?) James Webb reveals us itsy bitsy. So were they, 2000 years ago. How much can something smaller than a thought, know. Don't call me theist or atheist, how can this microbe know anything. 🤔🤑😲
YESSS - another Kristi video. A wonderful way to start the day. 🙂
Another great video, Kristi!! Thank you!❤️
"God has a plan for your life" sounds sinister once you realise that plan has nothing to do with what you want.
Wow, how many times I said “Mmmm hmm” “yep!” Like I was sitting in church saying Amen to what YOU were saying ahaha. Felt like I was in church for atheists lol.
No but seriously, just so eye opening. The way you put things. The Christian’s moral system is obedience.
These videos are so helpful as I continue to deconstruct. I look forward to each new video you put out ! Thank you! ❤
Hi Kristi, I absolutely love your channel. Even though I am atheist and not deconverting, your channel has become one of my favorite atheist channels since discovering you on TH-cam recently and after years of watching similar content, I put you right up there with the best of the best.
You might be familiar with Jimmy Snow's channel 'The Line'. Jimmy had Brandon, from Mindshift on last night as a co-host alongside Matt Dillahunty and he did a great job as Matt's co-host. _(Aside from your channel, Brandon's Mindshift channel is another fav of mine that I also just recently discovered.)_
I think you would also make a wonderfully great guest co-host and would fit right in w/Matt on The Line, so I hope you don't mind that I went ahead and took the liberty of recommending you to both Jimmy and Matt for potentially appearing to co-host alongside Matt. Not only would your expertise make for a great show but I think it would also contribute to boosting your channel's exposure and net you some new subscribers.
I hope I wasn't being too out of place. If this isn't something you'd be interested in doing, you can always decline if they contact you and tell me to mind my own business. 💖
Thank you. This is lovely. I keep starying to type points and then you cover them. The only thing I can add is that we are, at our core, just animals who naturally tend to favor those of our own kind. We're not the only animals with empathy towards their own kind, particularly to individuals they know.
Kristi, this topic covered and question answered was so well done. Absolutely amazing comeback 😅and the biblical stories to back up your point!
You have a great way of explaining and expressing in this forum. So impressed and grateful for all your hard work!
When it comes to morals, the distinction between ingroup and outgroup is crucial: While killing another person in my ingroup is called murder and is deemed immoral and punishable, going to war and killing a bunch of people from the outgroup is a praiseworthy, heroic effort (see for example the conquest stories in the OT). The only valuable humans lives are those in my ingroup. The reason the world is so much more peaceful today is because we have expanded our definition of the ingroup so much, which is expanding our circle of empathy. Today, for many it involves all of humanity. But that is a very recent development, and interestingly it has come about as many parts of the world are becoming more secular rather than more religious. An excellent book on this topic is "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Steven Pinker.
Yes we are animals.
One word describes why we can have morals without god:
INSTINCT.
@@smidlee7747 It describes a portion of our subjective understanding of morality. Of course, we have many thoughts besides instincts, as do animals.
@@smidlee7747 you wouldn't be charged for murder for killing termites because it's man made laws based off of man's empathetic feelings towards other animals. They are not as great as towards humans.
I would say that you are lost because when it comes to details of your religion they are typically unspecific or nonsensical. "Made in God's image" only points towards similarities, but doesn't tell you anything past that. People like you come along and while rationalizing the world make things up using the loose description. The reason I don't think highly of it is because I focus on the real world for my answers, not Christian lore.
Well said Kristi.
The primatologist Frans de Waal describes moral behavior in non-human animals. Look him up for examples of this. A sense of right and wrong is not unique to Homo sapiens sapiens. You can even find youtube videos demonstrating that this is the case.
I'll find him - thank you! I can't think of any other animal that kills just because it's been inconvenienced. It's never crossed my mind to kill someone because they disagree with my outlook on life. That can't be said for certain Christian murderers who credit their God with their inspiration.
So? How does that prove that objective morality does not exist? Because animals too have a sense of right and wrong? And btw, I don't need an anthropologist to tell me that, I can see that to be true from my own understanding.
@@Himanshu_Khichar Who said that objective morality doesn't exist? (Hint: I didn't.)
@@Himanshu_Khichar de Waal is a primatologist not an anthropologist but understand the confusion.
@@edwinlucianofrias1643 So what's the point of your comment? What does it seek to prove in the debate about the existence of an objective morality?
Great show! Thank you! Your thoughts and opinions are very enlightening.
Billions of people throughout history have lived together without ever hearing or knowing about this or that specific god. And they did a great job, otherwise we would have disappeared again a long time ago.
Simple answer - No human society would ever have survived if we had no common laws and values. And guess what - even other animals don't go around habitually killing members of their species except for very specific aims such as dominance which by the way, we humans still do when we have wars.
Enhancing and insuring the well-being of the individual enhances and insures the well-being of society at large.
Straight to the point, Kristi. You nailed it. Foundation of morality is one of the big guns of apologetic, but as you clearly explained it brings a lot of contraddictions and weak points that make the whole structure an unsafe house.
Great video! Love your channel, I wish I had access to insights like this years ago since I grew up in an evangelical cult basically and it messed me up for a good chunk of my life.
Since you mentioned psychopathy I thought I’d share my understanding of the concept. Basically to understand psychopathy is to understand the concept of what God is with respect to the human experience and everything that it encompasses. Essentially, everyone alive today has psychopathic traits, otherwise we wouldn’t be alive. Psychopathic traits are essential for survival. Inherent selfishness/self interest, move toward pleasure and away from pain, control emotions, rationalize versus simply believe. So some people are more psychopathic than others, and not all psychopaths are aware that they are psychopaths. All psychopaths are born psychopaths, and a sociopath is someone who experienced early childhood traumas and as a response to their coping mechanisms, their brain pruned off the neural pathways which otherwise would enable the full range of emotions.
The way I look at it is this: we all play roles, we all have to behave how we’re expected to behave. Religion domesticated the human animal (through absolutely atrocious means) but here we are. Animals convinced we’re separate from nature. We wear clothes and play these different roles in society. But at the end of life, when the illusion of being a separate entity from everything else in existence fades away, we are reunited with the totality of non-existence.
Or something idk 🤷🏻♂️
My deconstruction led me to explore non-dualism and Zen. We do not live in a world of absolutes, everything is in flux; morality and ethics are no exception. The story of the Chinese Farmer is an example of how “good” and “bad” are subjective. We do not know the outcome of a situation or how it will affect the future, so the only honest answer to your question is “maybe”.😊
You're always great, every time you talk, you're very brave, I listen carefully, I've done a lot of deconstracting work, it's hard but makes me feel more and more relieved, no fear about hell or any kind of punishment. Great feeling. You're healing people❤Thanks!
You are the troll. @@Samael580
🎯
All sentient beings are valuable and deserving of basic rights and moral consideration.
💚🐾✊🏼💚
Indeed, 💗!!
Lol I’ll never understand why “it comes from within” is not enough convince others that I don’t want to hurt anyone
For me, morality it's more about outcomes rather than right or wrong. If people are continually murdering each other, eventually that society will collapse and devolve into chaos. If you have a society where people aren't murdering each other, that society will have an increased chance of thriving.
Morality came about as a result of survival. When humans were hunter gathers and lived in small tribes, having a murderer in your tribe could destroy your tribe so it was in your best interest and your survival to make sure the people who you depended on would not bring you any harm.
If God is a being, then whatever God wants is subjective, by definition.
@het53
Honestly unknowable.
Life is not black and white. No matter how much some people want us to think so. Our moralities are dictated by given situations and circumstances. We may say that killing people is wrong. But when we have to defend ourselves, our families, our communities, our countries, then our objections toward killing changes. Our thought of right and wrong can enter plenty of grey areas when it comes to matters of survival. That's just the facts.
@@smidlee7747 But is that "God" Lord Yahweh, Lord Brahma, or Lord Sidious.?
@@smidlee7747 I know enough to understand that many different cultures have their own answer when it come to who is "God". The very title is subjective since it means different things to different people.
@@smidlee7747are you a believer? If so a Bible believer, then Bible God wants to DEFEND himself so he ALLOWS killings is okay? I agree we might justify killing if we had to defend ourselves or love ones from injustice and dangers. But the problem with God is, especially in the book stories of his, this god or God USED human to kill human for Him, the way he wanted it done were pretty much nonsense and ridiculous 😮He is supposed to be a Supernatural Being with moral and values, able to do miracles but THIS (the ones done in his stories) the best way to defend himself!? 😮
But if if a god exists, it's just god's opinion and still not objective.
My southern baptist upbringing taught me that my default and deserved destination is hell. That's not exactly self-affirming. lol
Yaaaay Kristi! You rock! 🪨
People's morals and value systems have a tendency to be different and often times it is influence by culture. Eastern morality can be very different from Western morality.
@grapeshot, is slavery wrong for both cultures?
@whiskeredtuna slavery is wrong in any context, but remember your Bible slavery is endorsed and allowed in both the Old and New Testaments
East and west coast morality just in the USA alone itself differs
@@grapeshotwhy is it wrong
@@wagnavianobviously not because the god of the bible because he endorsed it in the bible
That was an excellent video! Of course morals are subjective, and the value we attach to human life is subjective. I am from a Northern European country and live in the US. I have found that many Americans hold very different views to my own when it comes to value-of-human-life issues such as the death penalty (long abolished in my country), gun laws (private gun ownership is largely forbidden in my country, for everyone's safety), the bombing of Hiroshima (viewed as a war crime by many in my country), or abortion (legal and no longer contentious in my country). I'm naming these examples here not to say that my country is better than others, but just to point out how crucial issues that touch directly on the value of human life can be viewed differently even by groups living at the same point in time and in very comparable cultural circumstances!
This is actually a great take that I hadn't really thought of, and certainly would have boggled my teenage fundamentalist mind. I see the intrinsic value of fellow human life like the intrinsic value of money. In objective reality, a $1 bill and a $100 bill are worth about the same, being not much at all, but as a collective group of subjective people, we have decided and agreed upon an assigned value or represented value to these things. Most people agree and go along with the "money has value" scheme in order to participate in society and get goods and services. As for human life, we as a civilization have collectively agreed that it is preferable for our health and pleasure to remain alive and keep others alive. But like you said, some people have a mental disconnect that prevents the empathetic perception of others, or are part of a society that has determined their health and pleasure would benefit from the loss of another group and so wars/genocides happen.
At any rate, you've definitely given me and likely others a very clear and sensible way to present a counter to this argument that is so often used as a gotcha by apologists.
Whether we love or hate those around us and we'd all like to do whatever we feel like, in order for us to survive as a species, we all need to follow some basic values and social rules so that we don't just go extinct. MOST of us have the brainpower to know that complete anarchy will destroy us. Lucky for us, enough people behave with decency and have enough empathy to keep us going even when many self-serving groups push for facist self-destruction. We don't need religion to know what is good and bad for our existence.
Thank you so much for showing the difference between morality and obedience, and how Christianity demands obedience, NOT morality. Mind shifting! 🙏
I believe as you do, Kristi. Morality is a part of natural evolution of species. It can be observed in animals and other species as well. Even ants value their colony and don't just murder each other en masse. It's natural for a species to procreate and survive to further the species. It's built into all species and seems to make a lot of sense to me. Basic instincts tell you that to preserve the species you don't purposefully kill off your own species because that simply ends evolution for the species. It's in the interests of any species to preserve itself.
we do murder millions in mass through abortion but atheists have to redefine person and murder
Thank you for such great examples of critical thinking. Showing how the question is biased to start with and closing with how immoral their beliefs actually are is perfect. Loved how you kept referencing the differences between objective and subjective.
Personally, I don't think human life or *any* life has intrinsic, objective value. From a top down perspective, life is an accidental growth in the giant sandbox of the universe. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that WE can't find things valuable. We're humans, we're wired to be biased for humans and for things like us, and that's because we like humans and ourselves. And I think protecting each other is absolutely worthwhile at the same time as believing that, on a larger scale, it won't matter after we're all dead and gone.
Same
I cannot say "god bless you" Kristi because that is null and void.
But I personally bless you for you complete honesty.
I think you explained about the idea of intrinsic value about as well as anyone could. I too enjoy your videos and I have a lot of doubts and questions about religion and Yu have such an interesting way of expressing what yu believe is the truth
When you give the answer of where our morality comes from, empathy for most (sympathy for me), and they ask for that where does that come from? My answer is always "that's moving the goal post I answered your question. But if you must know a combination of evolution and the Golden rule."
Yes, biblically, you and means are not intrinsically valuable, just a select group of those human beings are, The Israelites of that time.
It does not matter if you think I cannot know right from wrong. What matters, is that you understand that I do not see your god as a moral standard and If you want to live with me, we need to find a way to do it together.
I gotta say this is prob THE BEST explanation of human intrinsic value I’ve ever heard from a non-Christian. I personally am still grappling between having some kind of religiosity and being atheist.
I think people who profess Christianity and seem to struggle are prob struggling bc the system isn’t working for them and they just don’t know it yet….
That’s what I’m realizing.
You're doing a lot of good, Kristi. Thank you.
Thank you. I am not one that needed much convincing to put this particular myth of Christianity into its proper perspective as one of many myths created throughout the history of humankind, however, your cogent and very matter-of-fact approach has been so helpful to me! You have helped me pull together so many of the threads that I have been picking at for years, into a clear view of exactly where I stand on the matter. I especially appreciate your distillation of what Christians really mean when they are arguing points from the Bible or trying to impose a so-called Christian morality on everyone in their world. I love how you explain morality as having the goal of the well-being of all humans and how that evolved by developing empathy for one another. Developing empathy is also a clear path to human cooperation, and cooperation was an obvious environmental advantage that humans used to the fullest and which allowed us to develop into the complex beings we are today.
Excellent presentation. We are a gregarious species that thrives together in groups, and empathy was the evolutionary psychological trait that made gregarious living together possible. We cannot evaluate the intrinsic value, or the value in general, of an individual in our group without considering the survival of the whole group because the evolution of our species (and that of every other species of gregarious chordates) was determined by the survival capacity of the whole group. Every time we try to find this intrinsic value of an individual by separating it from the group and evaluating what remains, it is clear that the intrinsic value of a single human is only as food for lions.
There is a lot to define in that word, "intrinsic", because it depends on the question "intrinsic with respect to what?" If an apologist swings the word "intrinsic" around and does not explain what is "in" and what is "out", he/she is just playing word games.
When I WAS a Christian I always said I didn’t need “10 commandments” to be a good person…
I STILL DO NOT!
Another excellent video. Thank you. That the god of the Hebrews gave mankind the 10 commandments, morals to live by, is belied by the fact that the same moral values were present in cultures that predated the Hebrews. The 10 commandments weren't given by a god, but were simply those values that promoted the well-being of the society and the individuals within it. Consider, for example, that we drive on the right-hand side of the road. We don't do that because it is a law; we do it because it promotes not only our own well-being, but the well-being of everyone else on the road, the society of drivers. From time to time morals get convoluted or misapplied, but there is always a root in every moral belief that promotes the well-being of the society. Those morals may be codified in laws, but those are simply laws that have been "discovered," as opposed to "positive laws" that are given by the ruling class to promote their own well-being at the expense of the others within the society. (In other words, Positive law is not normally based on morals but is instead based in social engineering; the powerful engineer society to their personal benefit.)
Morals are not given by a god and do not require a belief in a god. They only require us to be intelligent and able to recognize that we are part of a social structure, and what promotes the well-being of the social structure in the end promotes our own well-being.
I studied Mathematics so the idea of something objective and beyond the judgement of a single human was soooo attractive and intuitive to me for such a long time. Then I started work in a field unrelated to my studies, and also I started looking into philosophy. It showed me it's really unrealistic to get all people to agree on something and call it universal. And my bubble bursted.
We do not need an outside source a god to have objective and intrinsic value as human beings. Both objective and intrinsic value is an internal source. It is to my well-being to have moral values. I don't want to murder people because I don't want to be murdered. Its source is internal. It is in my best interest not to be murdered. It is in my best interest not to be harmed in any way just as it is in the best interests of others not to be harmed in any way. My moral conduct is determine from within myself. It is an observable fact within my nature inherent necessary essential that I have moral values. To not harm or murder others. Just as it is with all human beings.
5:52 You're right. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that we live in our own realities, but a better way to phrase it is: we all have a unique *perception* of reality around us. The models we create from such perceptions behave differently, and reflect our beliefs and prejudices as well.
The late, but ever so great, Christopher Hitchens gave a challenge to all the believers out there, which nails the whole morals come from the Bible debate:
Name an act carried out by a religious/holy, clergy person etc that couldn’t be carried out by a nonbeliever/atheist.
Nobody was able to accept the challenge.
Challenge is invalid because atheist or believer both have moral compass built-in called conscience. An example is that every nations and civilizations has similar form of Golden Rule. Now, the real challenge is for atheist that honestly to follow their own believe without borrowing Christian's value: either embrace of absurdity of life or live inconsistently with the belief.
@@ianbuick8946 but morals are intrinsic in all societies, without them said society would collapse.
Are we expected to believe that up to the point Moses stood atop mount Sinai to deliver the 10 commandments, everyone was raping, pillaging and murdering anyone they came across with gay abandon? Of course not, otherwise it’s arguable the many thousands of people who flocked to hear his words wouldn’t have made it there in one piece.
@@ianbuick8946 ever thought Christian moral values were borrowed from others …ancient China, for example?
Just a thought :)
@@jamesaston410 The 10 Commandments and Mosaic Law was introduced at the time when the Israelite began to established a nation. It is considered superior comparing to other nations at the time. Ask yourself this, If you would live in the time of Moses, which nation would you choose. I would advise you to research carefully of all the moral standard and practice to see where to live. It's easy to look at ancient world as if they're salvage and stupid but forgot how we get here. Ancient China practice of foot binding was eradicated because of both Chinese and Western Christians' influence. Wanna see full-blown atheist on power looks like, the 20th century atrocities still there in the history book. I was a former atheist grown up in a communist Asian country, reality is different from what media portrait. It's one thing to sit in the Western Judeo-Christian bubble but to travel there and live is entirely matter.
@@ianbuick8946 sounds like you’ve had an interesting life.
So, in your first post you said the challenge is for an atheist to find their own belief without borrowing Christian values, so I assume you are referring to those values in the New Testament, not the old with the 10 Commandments?
My favorite response to the "moral provider" is still Darkmatter's stockmarket example.
I just had a discussion about this with an actual christian psychopath (diagnosed, his words)
He argued, that if he didn't believe, his life would be meaningless and he'd start hurting people or commit suicide.
My response was, in atheism, it is you who decides if your life has value, because that's the only way to make it through hard times. God or no god.
Imagine living in a war zone without water, electricity or food.
If you believe god had given up on you, you might think you're not worth living and give up.
Believing you're actually valuable despite what some god thinks of you, might just help you through it.
Having Arnold Schwarzenegger there to save the day, may also help.
What is the worth, value and importance of the life and existence of the Creator?
ANSWER -
According to Atheists, Agnostics, and Evolutionists...
the Creator doesn't exist and even if existing, is still worthless, useless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the True and
Sovereign God,
in their opposition and defiance of what were written in Matthew 22: 37 and John 17: 3.
What is the worth, value, and importance of the life and existence of Jesus Christ?
ANSWER -
According to Christians, and fanatics of al kinds of Religions in the world....
Jesus Christ is worthless, useless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth
and his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" are worthless and useless too
in their opposition and defiance of what were written in Matthew 28: 18, Luke 4: 43, and John 11: 25, 26
What is the worth, value, and importance of the lives and existence on earth of human beings?
ANSWER -
All imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings who love and glorify the Creator as their loving, kind, and merciful God and Heavenly Father
in obedience to what were written in Matthew 22: 37 and John 17: 3
and obey what he wants for them to submit to the authority of Jesus Christ and believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead"
as written in Matthew 28: 18, Luke 4: 43, and John 11: 25, 26
are clearly the worshippers of the Creator and followers of Jesus Christ on earth
who can be trusted with anything and are worthy and deserving of the Creator's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death on a safe, secure, and peaceful earth without liars, immoral, traitors, perverts, and murderers as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4, 8.
All human beings have no immortal souls and will just become worthless and useless dusts on earth after their deaths just like the animals as written in Ecclesiastes 3: 19, 20 and 9: 5, 6
but
all the loving, kind, and respectful worshippers of the Creator and followers of Jesus Christ
who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Mary, Martha, Lazarus, and many others will not remain as worthless dusts forever,
instead, in the right and proper time and as written in John 11: 25, 26,
Jesus Christ will resurrect them back to life so they can all happily and abundantly live and exist on earth forever as submissive and obedient subjects of the
"KINGDOM of GOD"
and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, compassions, generosities, favors, and blessings of the Creator and his Christ for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
I especially appreciate how you are able to do these videos with a minimum of jump-cut editing.
Your opinion is very insightful and helpful
Life is a metastable state that one can never return to, but can (and eventually will) always depart from. Ending it closes a lot of potential opportunities for our civilization.
At the moment, this is the best I can do to justify human life in objective terms, without any spiritual woowoo.
I do also accept that there are circumstances that override this, like suffering or massive criminality, with no way to recover in reasonable time.
We are created in god’s image, but he has no problem treating humans as collateral damage and toys to use and play with.
Well even sadistic gods must get their entertainment somehow !
One thought that won't leave me alone in the first minutes of watching this - I've never seen a Christian explain why God's value of us counts as 'intrinsic' or 'objective' any more than our value of us. You're right that value is essentially subjective. For something to be valuable, someone has to value it, it's dependent on a subject, and God is a subject too.
We are as valuable to God, as batteries are to a remote control.
And just like a remote doesn't work without batteries, a god doesn't exist without humans to imagine it.
That curiosity is the key Kristi. 😀 Too many Christians are not curious enough to read Plato's dialogues, or Confucius' Analects, or any of the Taoist or Buddhist or Hindu texts. So they live in a bubble and think their values are entirely unique, and that's probably why their pastors don't want them to read other religious texts. Because they are afraid one of two things will happen: a) that person will switch religions or b) become an agnostic atheist.
Humans, like all animals has an innate survival instinct. Humans, like some other animals are social and operate in groups. Group harmony aids survival of the group by protecting the individuals in the group. That's how I think about it. Humans are not intrinsically valuable, we just see it that way because we want to survive.
It's ironic that Evolution foils this whole assumption by Christians that only God can supply us with "value". But that is exactly why we are who we are. We are evolving to survive, and we become more capable of survival very slowly over time. "God" has nothing to do with it.
A great irony is that many of the most racist, homophobic, selfish, self-centered, mean spirited, nihilistic, cynical, liabilities to all life on Earth, prideful bullies are the most die-hard Christians alive. You won't see it on their veneer but get just below skin deep and you'll see it every time. And some I assume are good people.
spot on ,without a doubt !!!
I have a "frienemy" who always ends every letter with Jn. 3: 30. "He must increase, I must decrease." Kristi is so correct here when she argues that Christians don't have a higher or better sense of morality; their alternative is just obedience to a capricious sky daddy.
Ha. At 4:39 that was my answer. I’m a Christian by the way. But I never liked the apologetic of you need an objective standard to have meaning approach. Under a major apologists channel I explained how secular humanism gets to human value without the necessity of a “god” and everyone in that thread just assumed I was an atheist no matter how many times I told them I was just posing the object as Hegel as Sarte worded it.
Objective morality is a pissing contest to see whom is more humble. Before god naturally.
I've been an atheist for a lot longer than I was a 'Bornie'. One of the concepts that helped me shed the Crust was a realization that humans are no more valuable than, say, earthworms. The very idea that humans are the crown of creation became anathema, once I started looking beyond my own puny experience. A favorite pop song that wrapped it up neatly for me is by the British pop group, Stackridge - "No One's More Important Than the Earthworm" (1975).
You forgot to add to your list of god’s most valuable humans the guy who god struck dead because he gathered sticks on the sabbath and the guy god smote because he felt it morally wrong to sleep with his brother’s widow and my fav…Moses, who god did smite because he struck a rock to bring water to his people. But he didn’t smite him right away. He tortured him by making him go on a 40 yr trip across the dessert that should’ve only taken 2 weeks only to say, “Look. There’s the promised land. But you don’t get to step foot in it. Now go climb yet another mountain and die.”😂😂😂
Absolutely agree - the premise of the question, that humans are objectively intrinsically valuable, is not substantiated. Are animals intrinsically valuable? Insects? Single cell organisms? The entire concept of things having "value" is inherently subjective not objective. We assign value to things that keep us healthy and prosperous as a social species, we assign value to things that bring us joy. That includes moral principles like valuing all human life. But the universe and the properties of our physical reality really don't give af about humans. Human value is something that is assigned by, humans! Not God or nature
Empathy seems like a much more desirable basis for morality than the tyranny of an all powerful god that is rumored to have almost wiped out all life on Earth after it was disappointed with one of its creation.
I'm conciously commenting here BEFORE I listen to your content. First, I can't wait to hear what you have to say! And second, this is a topic that has been in my mind since I'm a teen. This idea that humans are intrinsically more valuable. It has always struck me as hubris. The bible says god gave us dominion...... I guess...... But that was almost certainly when I started doubting the bible. How crazy to think that humanity is some sort of demi-god that gets to use and abuse everything within sight. I can't verbalize it better than that. But I just never bought in. Now on with YOUR show!!!
I remember hearing Matt Dillahunty put morality into an interesting perspective and one that I happen to agree with.
All of morality is subjective, but at a foundation level only. Once you agree on a foundation, the specific actions one may take, are objectively good or bad based on that foundation.
So christianity has a subjective foundation of the bible. And someone like I and many other secular humanists, have a subjective foundation that is human well being.
And from there, we can objectively say that things are good or bad. For instance, from the basis that human well being is the ideal outcome, murder/r*pe/etc are objectively wrong. Meanwhile, the Bible condones those in certain instances.
So morality can be a weird hill to tackle but from a certain perspective (not even necessarily the perspective I proposed), it may be easier to understand where morality may come from for certain groups.