I didn't even realize that people debated this. I thought it was well known and accepted that Gohan is the strongest un-fused character at the end of the Buu saga.
I didn’t realize this until I was an adult lol, I guess I was so amazed by ssj3 which use to be my favorite. But it’s very obvious that Ultimate Gohan is stronger
it kinda of mess since of the anime and fillers, and people mix it with the manga, in anime goku is stronger by the end, in the manga gohan is the strongest
@spinozilla2421 Lol there is no ”in the anime vs in the manga” in Dragon ball or Z. The anime is the literal same story as the manga, just animated. Gohan is the strongest in both because there are no differences in the stories. This is not Super where manga and anime have different continuities of the same story. Every difference and ”change” that you have seen in the anime vs what happened in the manga, like calling Kid Buu ”strongest Buu” are all just mistranslations when dubbed, not actual changes to the story. SSJ3 Goku is weaker than Gohan in either format of the story
@@grydon6422 last I checked Garlic jr arc, otherworld tournament, and other anime exclusive stuff never happen in the manga. It very clear anime is different as there is more added content from it filler episodes with one such episodes has goku beat a copy of ultimate gohan with guides telling and the episodes itself confirming these copy warriors in buu are just as strong as the real version, with goku beating and holding his own with this copy with just regular sjj
@@spinozilla2421Him besting a copy means nothing especially cause it was non canon anyway. Let's just stick to facts. Inside buu Goku stated that he couldn't beat Super Buu with SS3 while Gohan clearly stomped Suoer Buu.
Didn’t realize this was a thing. I thought it was already an accepted fact. Gohan was trashing Super Buu while SSJ3 Goku was evenly matched with Fat Buu.
Dead Goku. Alive Goku was barely handling kid Buu, which is weaker than fat Buu/super Buu. Super Buu is just as strong as Fat Buu, just his power is unrestricted, to a point.
Is that why Goku was rivaling Gohan inside Buu as SS2? Or why even with all the Z fighters (including Gohans) energy wasn't enough to beat Kid Buu? But Goku thought him at full power SS3 would be enough?
@cinemamadness6920 also the energy from the spirit was enough to beat Buu, Goku just lacked the stamina to utilize it, which is why porunga restored his energy to push back the spirit bomb
He’s literally the author. He literally is the final and best possible source. Anything he says that doesn’t make sense in the story is still true, it’s just a official plot hole.
Akira Toriyama also said that Krillin was the strongest human, even though he originally classified Tien as human and Tien is far stronger than Krillin. On top of this, Uub is also human and far surpasses both Tien and Krillin as well. So sorry if the words of Akira Toriyama retroactively don't amount to squat!
Ssj3 Goku "keeping up " with Superbuu in the anime is the same as Krillin escaping Cell in the plane scene , doesnt mean Krillin is anywhere near Cell even by filler
In the anime We could see Goku was teying to fight but quickly getting overwhelmed as time passes. Krillin was just doging Cell to find excape route. But understood your reference !
filler also made Destructo disc reflect off cell, made 0 cell, but speaking of C disc, goku could end most villans if he had killer intent and used C disc
Even if SSJ3 was stronger, it has a huge drawback in the form of it's massive energy usage. Gohan's ultimate form doesn't drain energy like SSJ3 does making it much more efficient for combat.
It doesn't even drain energy like Super Saiyan for that matter. (Though it wouldn't matter much here since both Goku and Gohan mastered efficient and effortless use of SS1)
I appreciate the video, but anyone who thinks full power Ultimate Gohan has any chance at losing to ANY power level of Goku pre-god ki is hilarious. The only reason in Super that Gohan gets clapped by ANYONE is the fact that he is practically written out of the show, otherwise he would still be the King of Pure Power. DBZ power levels are in this order: Gohan, Goku, Gotenks, Vegeta, Piccolo.
Nah it's Vegito, Gohan, Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo Vegito and Gohan are obvious, Gotenks was equal to Super Buu, Goku was scared of him (and only scales slightly above fat buu and about equal to kid Buu) and Vegeta is Vegeta
It’s too bad Gohans new form went to his head and he got absorbed because of it. He got cocky and messed up. Goku, said “ Gohan can beat him now” because Goku is done being the savior of everyone else. Wants people to learn how to save themselves if he weren’t there. He also knew that would be good for Gohans progression as a fighter. I can see why you think Gohan hadd the edge… but… he didn’t. Just the way it is. Same thing now where people are arguing Beast Gohan is stronger than UI Goku. He’s not. It’s simple as that.
Him being actually weaker is debatable though because when he output all that power against Cell it was with rage. There's no way he could've accessed that kind of anger without a trigger, that's why Goku told him to fight with his emotions and nobody could touch him before battling Vegeta. He still knew that was the trick to unleashing his latent power. Him going SSJ2 at the tournament was far from the full power he'd used against Cell and could be dangerous to the people in the arena. To me, it makes little sense that he wouldn't go full power against Dabura given he'd turned 2 of his best friends, and his absolute best friend into stone. It would've made a lot more sense if Gohan got made because of this but instead he wasn't really at all, was basically just messing around. I still think he would've won that battle eventually but still, story wise it just seems wrong that Gohan wouldn't react to them being stoned more.
@@Valientlink not that this would change your mind, but gohan having an adult body generally means he can hold more ki and his punches/kicks have more reach/depth so it’s likely he had a lot more in him thanks to age + gohan only had half of ki & one arm against super perfect cell, so with ss2 traditionally being seen as double ss1, it lines up well enough in my opinion
@@Valientlink buu saga just like cell saga was dragged on for plot, so forgetting mystic gohans pathetic plot loss, Ssj2 gohan shoulda beat dabura i agree
@@Valientlink you thinking that 2 friends getting turned into stone should be a trigger for Gohan to unleash his rage tells us you forgot all about the fact that Gohan just cried like a little BEOTCH when his family and friends were getting wrecked by the Cell Juniors, and it wasn't until Android 16 had his head smashed that Gohan finally turned up. So it makes perfect sense he wouldn't get mad with Dabura, because he didn't get mad with the Cell Juniors.
@@Mr10before9 If the Cell juniors had turned Goku or Piccolo into stone statues and his only way to get them back to normal was to beat them you can bet he'd pop off. Piccolo and Krillin were as good as dead in that state, a strong enough wind could've knocked them down or two 7 year olds. The writing in the buu arc was just not good period except for how it developed Vegeta. He's the only person who got genuine character development unless you count Mr. Satan which I don't.
I always reasoned that Goku was able to somewhat hold his own against super buu was that he has better fighting instincts than Gohan. Goku spent 7 years training in other world while Gohan hasn’t trained at all in that 7 years. It’s like an athlete who takes a break from playing his sport. He has to shake the rust off.
Part of the problem is people think Kid Buu is more powerful that Buutenks and Buuhan and claim “well goku matched kid buu, so beats Ultimate Gohan” like people think goku post fusion got some massive power up when he never did.
Actually, majority of people know that Super Buuhan and Super Buutenks are stronger than Kid Buu, Kid Buu is just the most dangerous because he is just rage and no control.
I shit you not, I've seen arguments made about how Goku and Vegeta both got a power up from the fusion ,and theres a whole ass video from another TH-cam video claiming Goku got a power up from the elder kai giving him his life. 🤦♂️
7:59 I disagree that that was what the anime filler was showing. If you watch it, Goku dodges (once), blasts Buutenks back and unleashes an ineffectual barrage of ki blasts. So ends all the success he has against Buutenks. The rest of the fight is them clashing at super speed with any successful hits being in Buu's favor against Goku. More than that, Goku was fighting to stall Buu so Gohan could find the potara earring, except Buu was able to keep Gohan from doing that at the same time, Goku's interference proving ineffectual. This filler doesn't show Goku keeping up with Buu, it's showing "Tien holding off Cell" again. Except Goku had even less success. The manga demonstrates that Goku is outclassed by Buu and the filler shows the same thing. I never got why people think they're supposed to be different takes.
I believe many people just think SSJ3 Goku is stronger, because well, it's Goku - THE main character and has the SSJ3, which was the highest SS level at this point. Plus, it was Goku who finally defeated Buu. So many of us are very biased towards Goku, especially when keeping Gohan's lack in training in mind. Maybe the escalation in power levels contributes to it as well, since we (especially when we were kids) believed: The more recent an opponent is, the stronger he is and therefore Kid Buu must be stronger than even Buu + Gohan fused, because Goku was able to kinda keep up with him, while Gohan was absorbed by a "weaker" Buu form. Just my 2 cents.
@kulo4912 Not... really. Compare Goku in the filler to Gohan in his own filler. Mystic Gohan did much better for (I think) a whole episode's worth of fighting before the anime went back to manga material. Goku only had 1 dodge, 1 blast, and time for a short sequence of Vegeta's technique TM.
@kulo4912 True, which leads to the next point that usually comes up: that Buutenks must've been fighting more seriously against Goku than against Gohan because of the time limit of the Gotenks fusion within. That Goku's successful "1 dodge, 1 blast, and Vegeta technique" that was beyond what Gohan could accomplish by the time Buutenks got serious is meant to convey "Goku > Gohan". Except... Buutenks, even in the manga, wasted time kicking Tien unconscious. And then bragging about it. So to my mind, if Buu can make the mistake of letting time slip away there, he can make the same mistake again by not fighting Goku as super-seriously as possible. Making Goku's anime-only meager initial successes against Buu well within what the manga conveyed as well.
Goku's comment about wanting to wish for Gohan and Gotenks to come and fight Buu on the kai planet kinda sums up the question i think. It was Vegeta's call to not have them fight.
_I love when Goku stated that super Saiyan three is a Power that can only be handled in otherworld_ _I also love when Vegeta stated to Goku, at least you’re stronger than your son was against cell, that helped me understand the dynamics of super saying in general._ _Put super Saiyan three that was displayed in the tournament Saga with Kepler and her sister was a stronger super Saiyan three than ultimate Gohan in that saga._
Good video. It makes sense that Goku would tell depowered Piccolo-Buu that "Gohan can handle you now" simply because he knew Ultimate Gohan didn't burn energy as fast as his SSJ3 form.
this is actually taking things out of context, first off:Goku just returned alive and it is stated that once you return alive you don't have instantly access to your full power in chapter 515 by Goku himself when he talked to Vegeta, 2nd:as you yourself mentioned, Goku said that he was going to lose by going out as he was aka as small as he was inside buu, also Goku legit powers down and isn't worried about Buuccolo, the reason for which he said: Gohan can handle you is because he wants the next generation to do what he does aka to protect the earth, you yourself showed it for Gotenks so applying it for Gohan too isn't a problem, also Kid Buu isn't inferior to Super Buu, it doesn't matter which continuity you look at, Kid Buu is the strongest buu, that's across guides, dbz anime, manga and db kai
4:10 “Buu’s power is going to be crucial in giving the final answer to our main question.” You are completely right in this statement, however, this is where you falter in your analysis. I will explain momentarily.
Great video. I agree with getting evidence from the manga. I also mostly agree with what you said. However, what I got from piccolo's dialogue about superbuu being 'stronger' than buu was that he was'nt necessarily stronger but more agressive( uses his existing powers with straight up intent to harm) unlike buu who only plays with his enemies. I think of the splitting of evil buu from buu and absorbtion to be like a switch of modes not necessarily a power up. What do you think?
Thank you very much. You know as far as that statement with piccolo you have a point, and at a different perspective Super Buu could just be fat buu with fat buu releasing full power and evil, ready to fight. However, super buu is definitely stronger than the fat buu and this is proven with goku stating that he could take on fat buu at ssj3, but not super buu.
@@Neverend117 Goku was probably saying that he or Vegeta can't beat Super Boo while being tiny, there was no guarantee he would grow to his normal size while being out of Super Boo's body, I think that is why he says he can't beat him "like this"
*Id always say Goku is stronger than Gohan. Gohan couldn’t land a single hit on Buutenks but Goku did way better than Gohan ever did. Goku blasted Buutenks down for a minute. Gotenks says He was a little stronger than Super Buu. Supreme Kai says Kid Buu was the strongest form. Goku says before fighting Kid Buu he was totally holding back the whole time to let Gohan & Gotenks fight. How could Super Buu be stronger than Kid Buu? Piccolo says Gotenks is equal to Super Buu. Goku was way stronger than Gotenks and Gohan, Goku blasting Buutenks down was the proof everyone already knows, Gohan not being able to scratch Buutenks. I’ll burn the Manga. Animation all the way.* *Edit. Gohan got 4 good hits at the beginning before he got destroyed. Had to rewatch to make sure. Goku wasnt getting that damaged from the attacks though. He would just stand or flip up.*
I believe you but just for the sake of argument. Did goku tell vegeta that he was stronger than both of them because he hadn’t shown vegeta ssj3 at this point?
No matter how much stronger gohan was at this point he could not beat goku. The sad fact is that gohan was and probably still is just incapable of defeating anyone unaided. He’s too much of a wimp
Yeah It's probably a plothole but you could just headcanon that Goku followed his saiyan instincts and just wanted a good fight despite the whole universe being in danger. This isn't really the first time he's done that either... *cough* Cell *cough*.
2 things: 1 Goku saying, "I could have beaten the fat buu" is NOT the same thing as saying he was stronger than the fat Buu, being stronger than someone and beating them doesnt have to necessarily be a thing. I am 100% certain that Krillen would have defeated Nappa if Nappa didnt dodge that destructo disk, but that still wouldnt in any way made Krillen as strong or stronger than Nappa, there was still a massive power delta between the 2 of them. 2 Gohan's post old kai release is NOT a transformation, I have quite a few reasons for this, the first is Old kai said that Gohan isnt transformed, the second is Goku says he is normal also, Picollo also said he wasnt transformed, if this was a form, then Goku would have found it, Goku found a transformation past SSJ2, so he was on the same trajectory as Gohan as Gohan also went SSJ2, so his next step should have been "Mystic" if that was actually a supposed form, but both Goku and Gotenks skipped the "mystic form" entirely, this is no time for Gohan to all of a sudden get a new transformation that 2 other characters somehow skipped. The old kai told Goku to not go SSJ when he was going to fight Buu and he and Gohan fuse, the reason was because he said sense the fusion from the rings is permanent, he doesnt know the effects of how staying powered up like that forever would have on the fusion, so if that is the case, he should have told Gohan to power down into his "base form" which never happened, he was going to fuse with Gohan as is, why? Because Gohan was in his base form, what "mystic Gohan" is, is nothing more than when Vegeta powered up in the Saiyan series in front of Goku before he went X3 Kaioken, and infront of Frieza after he got healed by Dende, the hair change? If it wasnt for the fact Vegeta's hair never changes, I am sure his hair would have changed forms each of the 2 times he powered up I named, his facial change? He looks to me exactly the same there as Future Gohan, in short its his matured adult, battle-ready face. On the subject of Gohan and Buu with Gotenks and Picollo absorbed, I dont think that Buu was a whole lot stronger than Gohan the way alot of people want to believe, Goku said he lost over 1/3 of his power, so am I supposed to believe Gohan wasnt atleast that much stronger than Super Buu? The dude didnt even get an exercise vs Super Buu, the power "gap" seemed more than it was because of Gohan's lack of training for 7 years, Picollo's mind, and Gohan not getting to see that fight; also Buu's approach to that fight was far far far different than the filler Goku fight, he only did counterattacks and ranged energy-based attacks on Gohan, whereas he was willing to charged Goku with full confidence head on, there is your difference right there. Another point is, IF Goku was stronger than Gohan, he would have simply absorbed Goku, that would have easily taken care of Gohan IF Goku was stronger.
This is pretty much agreed on by the community nowadays. But you wouldn't believe how many debates on who was stronger SSj3 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan / Kid Buu VS Super Buu if you look back 5-10 years on db forums, TH-cam and Reddit etc. The dragon ball games continue to pretend that Kid Buu is an equal or stronger than Super Buu though for some reason though...
Notice how the only ppl who swear ssj3 goku is stronger than gohan are those who; 1. Think kid buu is the strongest buu 2. Fabricate goku getting zenkais when he doesn’t experience anything near death the whole saga, even against kid buu 3. Look at the anime filler that contradicts itself when ssj goku fights clone ultimate gohan, then right after says he can’t beat a super buu who was getting washed by ultimate gohan 😭😭😭 4. Try to write a different story than what was made
Kid buu doesn’t have to be the strongest buu to be stronger than super buu Goku said super buu was stronger because he was 4 inches tall and literally inside him Goku is relative to Kidd buu and Kidd buu is stronger than super buu that’s why people compare him to buuhan
@@sebtw8918 goku said “we can’t go out there like this” when literally in the next sentence goku refers to fusion and berates vegeta for destroying the potara
No difficulty, you have a form that doesn't even use as much ki as even regular Super Saiyan vs a form that can be maintained for like, 10 minutes tops. Yeah Goku has a higher fight IQ but the gap between them is just way too big that he wouldn't be able to keep up with Gohan's speed.
ok, so i like your conclusion you came to and how you explain it. i also agree that gohan is the strongest unfused character. what I don't agree with is super buu being stronger than kid buu. kid buu is literally the strongest form of the pure buu (meaning buu without absorptions). and the fact that ssj3 goku can hang in there with him means he could hang in there with super buu. i think what he meant by he would kill us if we leave like this is he would simply catch goku and vegeta exhausted and in base and would kill them.
I agree, although the plot for buu didn't make much sense to begin with, fat buu is ssj2 majin vegeta level so weaker than goku, super buu is grey buu that asborbed fat so basically super buu is muscular fat buu same power level, so goku should still win, but buus power scaling doesn't make sense anyways, because when super buu asborbed gotenks piccolo and gohan, and then goku and guys took out gohan and guys, Super buu SHRUNK 💀💀, and became kid buu?? which made 0 sense and somehow kid buu who was junior super buu somehow got when stronger than super buu, LITERALLY makes 0 sense, so i dont think u should overthink on why super buu is stronger than fat buu, we have to imply all buu form changes are stronger since it makes no sense, cuz if super buu is just muscular fat buu, shouldn't kid buu just be a weaker super buu aka fat buu since goku took out fat buu from super buus body? so shouldn't kid buu only be grey buu power level, which is even weaker than majin vegeta, again buu saga makes 0 sense, i copy pasted this message in another comment but i put it here too, the power scaling is weird
Kid Buu is not the strongest, Super Buuhan is the strongest...Kid Buu is simply the most unhinged because he has a child's mind, making him the most dangerous because he lacks control. Goku mentions this, stating that when Buu transformed from Super Buu to Kid Buu that his ki had actually reduced and that Buu had gotten weaker.
Genki is supposed to be more potent than regular ki. This would actually be the very first time I’ve ever heard someone suggest life energy is less potent than normal energy. It’s not anyone’s fault tho, the writing in dragonball is so terrible you can make a case for all sorts of shit.
I mean since Laughingstockmedia backs this up, then it is definitive at this point. Gohan was stronger than Goku during this point. There is so much and so many people that back this up. And honestly Gohan being stronger than Goku doesn’t change Dragon Ball Z at all.
@@Malthizar I’ll breakdown it down. Simply put. Fat Buu is OP. Yet is The weakest. Grey Buu is far Stronger than Fat Buu. Super Buu is far Stronger than Grey Buu. Buff Buu, far Stronger than Super Buu. Kid Buu, far Stronger than Buff Buu. Kid Buu is the Original and Most Powerful Majin Buu. His backstory tells us, each and every variation of him is naturally weaker than the original. There is a hierarchy of power, that does not change. Ever. In The Frieza Arc, Base form Frieza - 530,000. 1st Transformation Frieza - 775,000. 2nd Transformation Frieza 1,000,000. Final Form Frieza - 120,000,000. The Cell Arc; No. 20, No. 19, No. 18, No. 17, No. 16, Imperfect Cell, Semi Perfect Cell, Perfect Cell, Super Perfect Cell. The Buu Arc; Fat Buu 30%, Grey Buu 40%, Super Buu 60%, Buff Buu 70%, Kid Buu 100%. As u can see.. from left to right. The hierarchy of power never changes. From weakest to Strongest. Many fans understand this hierarchy of power in the Frieza Arc, and The Cell. It is a very easy concept to grasp. However, when it comes to The Buu arc. These same fans now mysteriously pretend as if this basic concept is now somehow complicated. Whether there are numerical power level or not, the power scaling concept never changes. The toxic fans & haters in disguise choose to be very disingenuous when it comes to the Buu Arc, bcuz they understand what the hierarchy of power is, and what it means for The Z fighters. Particularly who The Strongest Z fighter is in the Buu Arc. Goku was The Strongest In The Universe in the Frieza Arc. Gohan Became The Strongest In The Universe during The Cell Arc (Thanks to Goku’s specifically training him, they don’t like to acknowledge that). This is sonethin the fans love, cuz they wanna see Gohan become stronger than Goku. Coo, I’m on board, it is a great moment and it fits the story narrative. Then we come to the Buu arc. Now we have a problem. Bcuz many character driven fans and haters of the DB series both want one thing. Not to see Goku as The Strongest. These folks have been around in the previous two arcs. But they were silent bcuz most fans of the series love the two previous arcs. However, the 3rd arc is the least well received bcuz it does not fit these fans & haters narrative. Which is to see Goku not be The Strongest. They are willing to lie, and say the most in order to not deal with this reality. The power scaling concept that has been consistent throughout the whole series. They now wish to lie and become very disingenuous bcuz they refuse to accept the truth. That’s what’s been goin on for years.
I really don't understand the buu scaling, so in the saga, Fat buu splits and a grey counter part has his half power and absorbs fat buu, and instead of fat buu becoming fat but evil he gets a tall muscular form which makes 0 sense and is somehow according to goku stronger the than fat buu? because super buu is literally fat buu split but then evil tookover, I don't understand how super buu is stronger, than when vegito got absorbed and goku took out the z fighters and buu from super buus body, he became a kid again made no sense and somehow the kid without the fat buu asborbed is still pink and not grey and is also stronger than super buu?? I never understood kid buus power scaling and super buus
@@jordanglasper1064 very interesting take on the fandoms treatment of arcs and goku, I like it, U agree the fandom hates goku for 0 reason and garggling cell saga teen gohan, i like buu saga gohan more and generally dont like the cell arcs writing choices but i also don't like the buu arc much better to me after the namek saga left dbz became more about entertainment and less about good writing because namek saga did not have as much questionable moments as cell and buu saga and the villian was actually good in the namek and saiyan saga, imo, but the senzu bean was a good example of fans not understanding Goku, it takes u down a rabbit hole of thoughts, goku haters tend to be vegeta fan boys, vegeta fanboys tend to be cell arc fanboys, cell arc fanboys tend to be teen gohan fanboys, teen gohan fanboys tend to be buu saga haters, buu saga haters tend to hate anything after the cell arc, too much to go through honestly 💀
another point to add to the spirit bomb argument: wouldnt it make sense if the spirit bomb, as strong as it is, relies on the guy pushing it? its just a mass of energy, and since goku was so weakened, kid buu managed to push it back at him
Great video! However, i dont get the final conclusion that SSJ3 Goku is anywhere near Ultimate Gohan. Gohan is far far superior to Super Buu but the gap between Super Buu and Goku is far enough that him and Vegeta jumpin his ass wouldn't do anything.
I think its obvious that Gohan is leagues above Goku Lv3 which is why the Hirudigarn movie made no sense. Gohan shoulda solo'd that thing if Goku beat it
Goku could have beaten Fat Buu by teleporting to him and then taking him to other world right before he had to go back, because his Super Saiyan 3 state had less of a drawback in his dead body and the time would no longer be limited. He could have taught fusion beforehand and not transformed into Super Saiyan 3 yet and helped the next generation a lot still by beating Buu when he had the chance. Give the next generation a technique that they could use in future battles. Have Vegeta get revived and Vegeta and Gohan can learn fusion from the kids, Piccolo, and Krillin. Tien and Yamcha could learn it, too. Generally making everyone way stronger on average.
Never thought of goku potentially just transferring buu to other world but that’s an interesting idea. Assuming he could get hold of buu and allowed enough time to concentrate, buu has the ability to copy techniques, similar to how he copied the Kamehameha in the fight. Also note kid buu copied instant transmission and chased goku and vegeta, so fat buu may have been able to copy it too. This could result in a more dangerous threat who can go anywhere he wanted in an instant
i doubt it works like that. Goku had a sort of living stamp on him for a day going back to otherworlds environment wouldn't change that. It's more like setting a meter it's outside of his control if you leave the parking spot early or not
Shows how unnecessary the Buu saga was, they literally just chose to drag it on because of stupid decisions. Frieza saga, no one had a choice. Goku had to fight
The answer is obviously no. We can just use logic. Regardless of who you think is stronger Super Buu or Kid Buu, they are at least comparable power wise. Gohan was far and away more powerful than Super Buu where Goku and Kid Buu were more closely matched.
I doubt it. Vegito is 100% Sayian filled with 2 of their strongest ever. They have honed battle instincts and have that desire to battle. Gohan always wanted a peaceful life, not fight life threatening battles. Even with training he'll lose out because of that factor
he would wash vegito, bro Gohan was above ssj3 dead goku that trained for 7 years, imagine gohan training he would be OP, he would be a good contender for beerus in battle of gods
Goku: “I stand no chance against buu, vegeta and i were the same strength.” Reality: Goku is STRONGER than buu. Goku: “buu is more powerful than either of us! He’ll kill us if we fight him.” Reality: goku battles fairly evenly with a slightly more powerful version of buu. Though it’s true that ultimate gohan is stronger than ssj3 goku, goku’s quotes cannot be used as evidence for anything. Kid buu is stronger than Super Buu by a very small margin. Goku contradicted himself twice. His quotes in the buu Saga Are not evidence for anything.
First, no doubt Ultimate is stronger than ss3. I still don’t think he coulda beat Buu. Buu showed a godly amount of resistance to physical and ki attacks. All the Buu’s. Fat Buu pulled himself right back together after Vegeta released all his energy to kill him. Gotenks vaporized Super Buu, piece by piece. Put himself together. Vegito made a game of it. Kid Buu blew himself and multiple planets to piece’s multiple times. What u said about the genki-dama made me think, nobody but Goku was gonna be able to pull it off because he was the only one who coulda pulled a technique like that minus Tien. Raw power just wasn’t gonna get it done. U should do a video on how u think Buu’s fusion works. It seems like it works both ways and if it does we can’t definitively say who stronger out of the Buu’s. Absorbing the Kai’s seems to have negatively effected Buu. The fusion wearing off had negative effects. Buuhan shoulda be lightyears ahead of Vegito if Buu and Gohan were that far ahead of Goku and Vegeta. In the same way Buutenks was ahead of Ultimate… In Dbz we can’t take statements too serious. Ultimate Gohan, going by the statements, should have access to all of his power. Yet we have Beast Gohan now lol Again, can’t take the statements literally. Sorry for the rant lol Ultimate is stronger than ss3. Probably not by much and Goku could probably still get the dub.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your opinions. Thanks for watching too. As for that video, I will be working on which buu is the strongest, and pretty much break down all the forms-which will kinda answer how it works with absorptions etc
@@Neverend117 But that is not what Piccolo said. The only thing Piccolo said was that Super Buu's body is in shape compared to Fat Buu's. When he said the change in his Ki, he talked about how evil it was; if Buu Ki had increased, Krillin would have noticed and gotten scared like usual. One thing people don't know about the Z Fighters is they can tell if someone Ki is good or evil. Thanks to Mr. Satan, Fat Buu Ki started to change into good Ki after the two idiots killed the dog. Fat Buu dispelled all of his evil Ki, and it transformed into the Skinny Buu. Skinny Buu ate Fat Buu and locked the good buu away. In the Buu arch, the only way Buu got stronger was by absorbing someone. Where did this increase in power come from? The only person Skinny Buu Absorbed was fat Buu! It's Basic math. If the original Fat buu is 100. Fat Buu - Skinny Buu =40. Skinny Buu=60 Fat Buu =40. Skinny Buu + fat Buu =100. Where is this extra Power coming from? Even when you look at Kid Buu, it's still No different from Fat BUu or Super Buu. The only difference is his size; they are all the same. The only Buu's that are stronger is Buutenks and Buuhan because they are the only Buu's who absorbed other fighters to increase their power. You can see where their increase in power comes from Buutenks increase comes from Gotenks and Piccolo. Buuhan's power comes from Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan. Now we can say that Kid Buu Power decreased when he spat out fat Buu, the only time Buu might have been Weaker than Fat Buu or Super Buu. If you say that Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu, then you need to explain where this increase in power came from? Piccolo never said Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu He just said he was in better shape. His body is better suited for fighting that; all he is saying is he lost weight.
@@sonnywoods6846 I really don't understand the buu scaling, so in the saga, Fat buu splits and a grey counter part has his half power and absorbs fat buu, and instead of fat buu becoming fat but evil he gets a tall muscular form which makes 0 sense and is somehow according to goku stronger the than fat buu? because super buu is literally fat buu split but then evil tookover, I don't understand how super buu is stronger, than when vegito got absorbed and goku took out the z fighters and buu from super buus body, he became a kid again made no sense and somehow the kid without the fat buu asborbed is still pink and not grey and is also stronger than super buu?? I never understood kid buus power scaling and super buus Your comment was great and logical me and U think exactly the same but based off gokus statements kid buu he couldn't beat, majin vegeta> Fat buu so with your logic shouldn't have ssj vegeta and ssj3, goku stomped kid buu if hes the same level as fat buu, the issue is buu saga power scaling makes 0 sense it's as if every buu transformation he gets a power up
Very excellent power scaler. Some people dont understand how to scale thinks for making this page. Remember we can compare ss3 gotanks his base form was stronger than goku. When gotanks was ss1 u can see he can still fight super buu but then goes ss3. In his ss3 gotanks had a lot of trouble with super buu too and gohan came and woop super buu really bad while go tanks had trouble and go tanks is ss3 fusion. And there level wasn’t much different to goku. But mystic gohan easly defeated buuu compared to a ss3 form which led me to believe goku is slightly or as strong as super buu since he near gotanks level. But gohan easly beat super buu like one tap about to one shot him. So ss3 goku can’t possibly be near mystic level since goku base form isnt as strong as gotanks
Ha honestly after thinking about it a while when adding this to my watch list I concluded also that ultimate gohan was stronger and could beat ssj3 goku. Great video too and love all the art!! Thank you
Very good. Honestly though I feel as though the whole "Canon vs. Non-canon stuff" is better thought of as different continuities. Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the manga continuity un-questionably loses at least in the Buu Saga. In the anime though the scaling is much different so that could have a different answer.
He did not keep up with SSB Goku He kept up with ssj2 Goku who had the upper hand the majority of the fight They exchanged 2 hits in blue while Gohan begged Goku to stop holding back and then got one shot by blue kaioken It's just the same scenario as Goku vs Krillin just less surpressed.
I always thought it went in this order (as far as power not regeneration or durability) by the end of Z: 1. Vegito 2. Buuhan 3. Buutenks 4. Ultimate Gohan 5. Buucolo 6. SSJ 3 Gotenks 7. Super Buu 8. Kid Buu / and or Uub after Goku training 9. SSJ 3 Goku 10. Evil Grey Buu 11. Fat Buu/and or Uub maybe 12. Vegeta 13. Uub
Bro, you’d be surprised. The main reason ppl even try to argue is because they want to upscale kid buu to being the strongest. Usually, kid buu stans will say goku got a bunch of zenkais during the buu saga, when he literally doesn’t get in any near death experience at all in the buu saga, even against kid buu, so he doesn’t get any large zenkais. The other issue is because of the IDIOTIC filler with goku fighting clone gohan as a ssj, which contradicts itself when later on koi says he can’t beat super buu without potara. Kid buu stans don’t even acknowledge how dumb the filler clone stuff is, but still swear ssj goku should be able to beat ultimate gohan when, again, he doesn’t go through any training or any zenkais. People like to fabricate goku getting stronger throughout the buu saga, when it just isn’t the case. Unfortunately, some fans want to create the story instead of talk about the story
@@bzdagoatKidd Buu doesn’t have to be strongest buu to be stronger than Kidd buu Goku said super buu was stronger because he was inside of him Also why would they make Kidd buu weaker than super buu
@@sebtw8918 I'm pretty sure it's explained in story that Kid Buu isn't the strongest Buu, he's just the most vicious which is what makes him the most dangerous.
Then why did they decided to go with the genkidama against kid buu? At that point Gohan was already alive, seems to me like pretty clear evidence they.didn't have much faith in gohan against kid buu
Can't take what Goku said there to be facts that he could have beaten fat boo with super Saiyan 3 when he didn't see the extent boo could regenerate and his stamina
Honestly, im in the vast vast VAST minority but I strongly believe Fat Buu was stronger than kid Buu and there's strong evidence for it Fat Buu fought DEAD Goku Lv3 (so much higher stamina) and after watching the fight multiple times, once Fat Buu's competitive fire was lit, it looked like he took a slight upper hand against Goku. He was definitely surprised by Buu's strength At worst, Fat Buu was equal to DEAD Goku Lv3 as both were holding back but Goku clearly looked like he was breaking a sweat while Buu looked unfazed and even excited Watch the Fight again. Fat Buu might've been stronger than Lv3 Goku on the slick but he definitely looked stronger than Kid Buu who fought Goku in his physical body
Tyler: We’ll use the manga because the anime has filler and dub changes that confuse the audience. Also Tyler: Puts a video out about Ultimate Gohan, but focuses on 0:31 “Mystic Gohan”.
More dbz fans really need to learn how the genki dama works. People who think kid buu could take Gohan always bring up that argument and I have to keep myself from mentally checking out cause bruh.... good video
Hey man, great bideo, your points make alot of sense out of what "Ultimate" really means in the context of Super where he trains and grows...even stronger than his Ultimate form. I feel like Beast Gohan kinda flies in the face of the "Ultimate= Gohan's max, rage-boosted power without needing him to rage," but then again it feela like they pulled it out of thin air mixed with memba-berries anyway.
great video, completely agree ssj3 goku is weaker than ultimate. quick question, what would you say about the argument about goku and vegeta's size affecting power and that the statement about super buu was goku talking about him being small against super buu?
Thank you! And I would say it’s irrelevant bc goku states, and I’m paraphrasing here, that they’ll get killed if they go out like this. So even at full size, out of boos body, they’d get beat
8:45 I think the reason Goku said this (now Gohan can handle you) has little to do with their power levels, but rather because: A) Gohan was battered up while Goku was still fresh (even though Dende healed him earlier, but I believe Dende only heals wounds without restoring stamina... I could be wrong though), and B) This was Gohan's fight to begin with, and Goku simply returned the right to finish off Buu to him. I still think Ultimate Gohan is slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku though,, especially with the stamina draining factored in.
Piccolo did not say that Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu; he just said his body is better suited for fighting since he is in shape. When Piccolo says the change in Buu Ki, he is not talking about his power increasing if it did Increase, Krillin would have noticed. He is talking about how his Ki changed to pure evil. One thing a lot of fans don't know because of the dub version of DBZ is that the Z fighters can tell the difference between Evil Ki and Good Ki. Fat Buu Ki changed from evil to Good thanks to Mr. Satan. But when he changed to Super Buu, his Ki changed to Pure evil without a hint of good in it. When it comes to power Fat Buu before the split is equal to Super Buu. During the Buu arch, the only way Buu gets stronger is by absorbing other fighters. If Super Buu is stronger than the original Fat Buu, where did this increase in Power come from? The only way he increases his power is by absorbing someone stronger. The only difference between Fat Buu and Super Buu is one is fat, and the other one is in shape, as stated by Piccolo.
I agree, although the plot for buu didn't make much sense to begin with, fat buu is ssj2 majin vegeta level so weaker than goku, super buu is grey buu that asborbed fat so basically super buu is muscular fat buu same power level, so goku should still win, but buus power scaling doesn't make sense anyways, because when super buu asborbed gotenks piccolo and gohan, and then goku and guys took out gohan and guys, Super buu SHRUNK 💀💀, and became kid buu?? which made 0 sense and somehow kid buu who was junior super buu somehow got when stronger than super buu, LITERALLY makes 0 sense, so i dont think u should overthink on why super buu is stronger than fat buu, we have to imply all buu form changes are stronger since it makes no sense, cuz if super buu is just muscular fat buu, shouldn't kid buu just be a weaker super buu aka fat buu since goku took out fat buu from super buus body? so shouldn't kid buu only be grey buu power level, which is even weaker than majin vegeta, again buu saga makes 0 sense
@@bleeblah8184my guy grey buu is literally fat buus half power, thats like goku splitting himself in half and u saying if goku fuses with it then hes even stronger than before the split 😂
Yall are forgetting a very important detail when goku was talking to vegeta fighting kid buu he said yes if i was at full power I could defeat him but i wanted yal to defend the world i wont always be here , second when goku and vegeata fought super buu he already absorbed gohan and sssj3 gotenks.. also when gohan tried to get earring he had already absorbed gotenks which is why gohan couldnt defeat him anymore3rd when super buu was turning to kid buu vegeta said he is getting stronger which was also was followed up by supreme ki when he next told the story about kid buu and how he was weakend by abortion of the south ki
Actually no Goku is the strongest at the Buu saga 💀inside Buu body he was tiny and didn't have his full power hence why super Buu would beat him 😭so many statements and guide books stating Goku is the strongest non fused fighter
Saying kid buu is stronger than gohan because he pushed back goku's spirit bomb, is like saying jiren is stronger than both omni kings because when both of them gave goku their energy for the spirit bomb, jiren was still able to push it back with one hand lol
Probably yes, but only because Goku has a lot of battle experience at his back + it's a martial artist not just a powerful brawler. Gohan has higher power in ultimate but what else? Masenko and kamehameha? Gohan may be a smart guy in general, but in battle, Goku wins if it's a fast battle or is still dead ( because SSJ3 high energy drain), if not Gohan wins.
I think something people forget is that Saiyans get stronger every fight, and their power level increases DURING a fight. Gohan was done fighting after he lost and got absorbed. Goku wasn't. When Goku asked for everybody's energy for the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu, Gohan gave his own ki and it wasn't enough to kill Buu. I think it's reasonable to assume Goku's SSJ3 was close to, if not equal to, Ultimate Gohan by that point.
I’m quite sure wrath of the dragon Goku while not Canon could defeat ultimate gohan. In raw power and speed I can grant that gohan could be stronger. But goku is a much smarter fighter and can close the gap between opponents where literally everyone else in the whole damn show gets folded if they are even slightly weaker than the enemy whereas goku always does well when on the back foot.
Movie 13 takes place after majin buu saga at least "inspiration wise" the movies have a continuity of their own with some intersections here and there with the show , considering its a Toei , the movies being somewhat an adaptation on the show itself (Koyama being the director) Plus Dragon fist , is a hax in itself like Krillin cutting Frieza or Tien's Shin Kikoho
@@Neverend117 I know and agree with this. But I do believe some of the implications they push forward can be relevant to how the story can perceive characters. But even then I agree take it with a grain of salt
Plus Fat Buu was able to fight Kid Buu too, lmao, and Kid Buu’s fighting form has the Kid Goku debuff compared to Super Buu like Super Buu is Roshi. Plus the bigger body can harness more Ki by default. So it’s not looking good for Goku here even with his one-minute ki accumulation he wouldn’t get in a normal fight
yea i also didn't think this was a discussion. Even if you don't listen to them talk or read any words, it's blatantly implied gohan is the strongest until vegito
5:28 “Not expensing any energy thru Super Saiyan Transformations.” What u fail to realize is this all Super Saiyan Transformations, except for Super Saiyan God, all have “ki” leakage to varying degree. However, all Traditional Super Saiyan Transformations can be trained to perfection in order to Master that state and completely stop “ki” leakage of the form, when or while powering up in that form. As shown with Goku & Gohan in the Cell arc. The Saiyan base form is the only humanoid form that has no regular “ki” leakage during a power up.
Im sure he can. Then u gotta ask yourself why didn’t they bring gohan to fight kid buu? Therefor ss3 goku had the best chance to beat kid buu. If gohan was stronger they would’ve brung/instant transmission or wished gohan there. My logical answer.
People don’t like to hear that answer tbh lol 😂. Ultimate Gohan is my favorite Gohan form but sometimes he’s a bit overhyped. Some people cap and have him like 8 times stronger than ss3 or sone crazy number like that. If that was the case he would have killed Buutenks no problem.
Used google, Here's your answer: They didn't want to bring back Gohan because they wanted to use the spirit bomb so the earthlings can "save themselves." Genki Dama = Spirit Bomb Source: Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4 Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the Dragon Balls Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.” Vegeta: “No. Start making ready for... Genki Dama!" Goku: "G-Genki...?! D-Did you just...?! That's your great plan?! It won't work! Taking a bit of energy from everyone on Earth won't be nearly enough for-" Vegeta: "I said, let the Earthlings save themselves for once! You're going to take more than a bit! Take as much energy as you can!"
I didn't even realize that people debated this. I thought it was well known and accepted that Gohan is the strongest un-fused character at the end of the Buu saga.
I didn’t realize this until I was an adult lol, I guess I was so amazed by ssj3 which use to be my favorite. But it’s very obvious that Ultimate Gohan is stronger
it kinda of mess since of the anime and fillers, and people mix it with the manga, in anime goku is stronger by the end, in the manga gohan is the strongest
@spinozilla2421
Lol there is no ”in the anime vs in the manga” in Dragon ball or Z. The anime is the literal same story as the manga, just animated. Gohan is the strongest in both because there are no differences in the stories. This is not Super where manga and anime have different continuities of the same story.
Every difference and ”change” that you have seen in the anime vs what happened in the manga, like calling Kid Buu ”strongest Buu” are all just mistranslations when dubbed, not actual changes to the story. SSJ3 Goku is weaker than Gohan in either format of the story
@@grydon6422 last I checked Garlic jr arc, otherworld tournament, and other anime exclusive stuff never happen in the manga. It very clear anime is different as there is more added content from it filler episodes with one such episodes has goku beat a copy of ultimate gohan with guides telling and the episodes itself confirming these copy warriors in buu are just as strong as the real version, with goku beating and holding his own with this copy with just regular sjj
@@spinozilla2421Him besting a copy means nothing especially cause it was non canon anyway. Let's just stick to facts. Inside buu Goku stated that he couldn't beat Super Buu with SS3 while Gohan clearly stomped Suoer Buu.
Didn’t realize this was a thing. I thought it was already an accepted fact. Gohan was trashing Super Buu while SSJ3 Goku was evenly matched with Fat Buu.
Dead Goku.
Alive Goku was barely handling kid Buu, which is weaker than fat Buu/super Buu.
Super Buu is just as strong as Fat Buu, just his power is unrestricted, to a point.
kid buu is stronger than all of them@@JohnWiku
@@yayocowboykid buu is weaker than super buu
@@JohnWikuno tf he isnt
To answer the question: its very obviously “no.”
Correct.
Not correct
Is that why Goku was rivaling Gohan inside Buu as SS2?
Or why even with all the Z fighters (including Gohans) energy wasn't enough to beat Kid Buu? But Goku thought him at full power SS3 would be enough?
@cinemamadness6920 you do understand that Goku vs Gohan was only filler right?
@cinemamadness6920 also the energy from the spirit was enough to beat Buu, Goku just lacked the stamina to utilize it, which is why porunga restored his energy to push back the spirit bomb
Citing the manga was the best approach, good work!
I think the anime is the main reason why people get confused about the power levels.
Thank you and agreed. Manga is from the author himself
@@Neverend117and the author is a walking contradiction.
Or you could just say, Akita Toriyama confirmed that Gohan is the strongest unfused character in DBZ.
true but hes a horrible source as his logic is all over the place
He’s literally the author. He literally is the final and best possible source. Anything he says that doesn’t make sense in the story is still true, it’s just a official plot hole.
@@dustypaladin9216the problem is that Toriyama contradicts himself all the time.
@@dustypaladin9216 dude is a walking contradiction
Akira Toriyama also said that Krillin was the strongest human, even though he originally classified Tien as human and Tien is far stronger than Krillin. On top of this, Uub is also human and far surpasses both Tien and Krillin as well. So sorry if the words of Akira Toriyama retroactively don't amount to squat!
Ssj3 Goku "keeping up " with Superbuu in the anime is the same as Krillin escaping Cell in the plane scene , doesnt mean Krillin is anywhere near Cell even by filler
In the anime We could see Goku was teying to fight but quickly getting overwhelmed as time passes.
Krillin was just doging Cell to find excape route.
But understood your reference !
filler also made Destructo disc reflect off cell, made 0 cell, but speaking of C disc, goku could end most villans if he had killer intent and used C disc
I don’t think it’s that big of a difference but I see wym
SS3 Goku never confronted super Buu. You are thinking of kid Buu.
These things matter.
@@christopherbaker1716yes he did, momentarily, before fusing with vegita
Even if SSJ3 was stronger, it has a huge drawback in the form of it's massive energy usage. Gohan's ultimate form doesn't drain energy like SSJ3 does making it much more efficient for combat.
Agreed
It doesn't even drain energy like Super Saiyan for that matter. (Though it wouldn't matter much here since both Goku and Gohan mastered efficient and effortless use of SS1)
Super agreed
Thats why Goku suggested Gohan to take on Buu instead of him
SSJ3 was stronger.
But the rest is accurate.
Why is this a debate? We know damn well gohan is stronger
They messed up Gohan so much in Super. Buu was supposed to be Gohan’s wakeup call to continue training in peacetime. No excuse the second time.
Gohan is a shit character
At least the Super Manga keeps him training.
@@katamas832yea I’m happy they changed him again for the movie so he trains while studying
He's brilliant in GT though and he is just who he is. People need to accept that. He's an earthling. He doesn't take joy in fighting only
I appreciate the video, but anyone who thinks full power Ultimate Gohan has any chance at losing to ANY power level of Goku pre-god ki is hilarious. The only reason in Super that Gohan gets clapped by ANYONE is the fact that he is practically written out of the show, otherwise he would still be the King of Pure Power. DBZ power levels are in this order: Gohan, Goku, Gotenks, Vegeta, Piccolo.
Start of super Goku could beat Gohan
@@yep1486 I literally said that in my post. Read it again.
Start of Super power levels are not the same as End of DBZ power levels.
Nah it's
Vegito, Gohan, Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo
Vegito and Gohan are obvious, Gotenks was equal to Super Buu, Goku was scared of him (and only scales slightly above fat buu and about equal to kid Buu) and Vegeta is Vegeta
@@yep1486yes , gohan started to train later with piccolo
@@sheebify if u want to be technical, its Gokhan then vegito, gohan was literally about to wear the earing
5:33 this right here. A lot of people don't understand what the point of Ultimate Gohan was, and this is correct.
💯
Just hidden/sleeping power unlocked
I always knew the answer myself but you broke it down perfectly. If I ever need to debate someone on this again, I'm sending them this video
It’s too bad Gohans new form went to his head and he got absorbed because of it. He got cocky and messed up.
Goku, said “ Gohan can beat him now” because Goku is done being the savior of everyone else. Wants people to learn how to save themselves if he weren’t there.
He also knew that would be good for Gohans progression as a fighter.
I can see why you think Gohan hadd the edge… but… he didn’t.
Just the way it is.
Same thing now where people are arguing Beast Gohan is stronger than UI Goku. He’s not. It’s simple as that.
I’m surprised you didn’t point out Goku was surprised Vegeta could go Ssj2 just to really harp on how much weaker Gohan was before going Ultimate
Him being actually weaker is debatable though because when he output all that power against Cell it was with rage. There's no way he could've accessed that kind of anger without a trigger, that's why Goku told him to fight with his emotions and nobody could touch him before battling Vegeta. He still knew that was the trick to unleashing his latent power.
Him going SSJ2 at the tournament was far from the full power he'd used against Cell and could be dangerous to the people in the arena. To me, it makes little sense that he wouldn't go full power against Dabura given he'd turned 2 of his best friends, and his absolute best friend into stone. It would've made a lot more sense if Gohan got made because of this but instead he wasn't really at all, was basically just messing around. I still think he would've won that battle eventually but still, story wise it just seems wrong that Gohan wouldn't react to them being stoned more.
@@Valientlink not that this would change your mind, but gohan having an adult body generally means he can hold more ki and his punches/kicks have more reach/depth
so it’s likely he had a lot more in him thanks to age + gohan only had half of ki & one arm against super perfect cell, so with ss2 traditionally being seen as double ss1, it lines up well enough in my opinion
@@Valientlink buu saga just like cell saga was dragged on for plot, so forgetting mystic gohans pathetic plot loss, Ssj2 gohan shoulda beat dabura i agree
@@Valientlink you thinking that 2 friends getting turned into stone should be a trigger for Gohan to unleash his rage tells us you forgot all about the fact that Gohan just cried like a little BEOTCH when his family and friends were getting wrecked by the Cell Juniors, and it wasn't until Android 16 had his head smashed that Gohan finally turned up. So it makes perfect sense he wouldn't get mad with Dabura, because he didn't get mad with the Cell Juniors.
@@Mr10before9 If the Cell juniors had turned Goku or Piccolo into stone statues and his only way to get them back to normal was to beat them you can bet he'd pop off. Piccolo and Krillin were as good as dead in that state, a strong enough wind could've knocked them down or two 7 year olds. The writing in the buu arc was just not good period except for how it developed Vegeta. He's the only person who got genuine character development unless you count Mr. Satan which I don't.
I always reasoned that Goku was able to somewhat hold his own against super buu was that he has better fighting instincts than Gohan. Goku spent 7 years training in other world while Gohan hasn’t trained at all in that 7 years. It’s like an athlete who takes a break from playing his sport. He has to shake the rust off.
This is literally the answer. Gohan was stronger, and gokus was just a better martial artist.
Yeah, we can see Goku is used to getting kicked around by stronger opponents like: Raditz, Vegeta, Frieza, Cell, Buu, hmm...
@@yournumberonepalJiren, Broly, Moro, Granolah, Gas.
@@Kilzer_OGAndroid 19, Tao Pai Pai, Mr Popo….
@@Rillorolla Super 17, Beerus, Zamasu, Turles
The answer is, if we are only talking about raw power: clearly no. Gohan is stronger.
👆
Pre-Super ultimate Gohan slaps everyone.
Buuhan and Vegito enters the chat💀
Lol
@@nerdtom4513slaps all non fused characters
@@urekmazino6800 First of all the guy said everyone, he was strongest only in the end of DBZ
I thought everyone knew that Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu Saga.
Same people still think Kid Buu is stronger then Buuhan too
@@TreyTruth619 lol it’s funny
Kid Buu ain't even as strong as Fat Buu, let alone any form of Super Buu absorptions 😂😂😂
Part of the problem is people think Kid Buu is more powerful that Buutenks and Buuhan and claim “well goku matched kid buu, so beats Ultimate Gohan” like people think goku post fusion got some massive power up when he never did.
Actually, majority of people know that Super Buuhan and Super Buutenks are stronger than Kid Buu, Kid Buu is just the most dangerous because he is just rage and no control.
@@Mr10before9 Youd be surprised. Lot of people claim the opposite for some reason
I shit you not, I've seen arguments made about how Goku and Vegeta both got a power up from the fusion ,and theres a whole ass video from another TH-cam video claiming Goku got a power up from the elder kai giving him his life. 🤦♂️
I haven’t watched the video yet, but the answer is clearly no. Gohan was by far the most powerful single Z Fighter once his power was unlocked.
His base is weak, but the ultimate form multiplier is just crazy
7:59 I disagree that that was what the anime filler was showing. If you watch it, Goku dodges (once), blasts Buutenks back and unleashes an ineffectual barrage of ki blasts. So ends all the success he has against Buutenks. The rest of the fight is them clashing at super speed with any successful hits being in Buu's favor against Goku. More than that, Goku was fighting to stall Buu so Gohan could find the potara earring, except Buu was able to keep Gohan from doing that at the same time, Goku's interference proving ineffectual.
This filler doesn't show Goku keeping up with Buu, it's showing "Tien holding off Cell" again. Except Goku had even less success. The manga demonstrates that Goku is outclassed by Buu and the filler shows the same thing. I never got why people think they're supposed to be different takes.
I believe many people just think SSJ3 Goku is stronger, because well, it's Goku - THE main character and has the SSJ3, which was the highest SS level at this point. Plus, it was Goku who finally defeated Buu. So many of us are very biased towards Goku, especially when keeping Gohan's lack in training in mind. Maybe the escalation in power levels contributes to it as well, since we (especially when we were kids) believed: The more recent an opponent is, the stronger he is and therefore Kid Buu must be stronger than even Buu + Gohan fused, because Goku was able to kinda keep up with him, while Gohan was absorbed by a "weaker" Buu form. Just my 2 cents.
Goku doesn’t keep up with buutenks but does better than gohan did
@kulo4912 Not... really. Compare Goku in the filler to Gohan in his own filler. Mystic Gohan did much better for (I think) a whole episode's worth of fighting before the anime went back to manga material. Goku only had 1 dodge, 1 blast, and time for a short sequence of Vegeta's technique TM.
@@balrighty3523 yeah but once buutenks got serious gohan couldn’t land a single hit
@kulo4912 True, which leads to the next point that usually comes up: that Buutenks must've been fighting more seriously against Goku than against Gohan because of the time limit of the Gotenks fusion within. That Goku's successful "1 dodge, 1 blast, and Vegeta technique" that was beyond what Gohan could accomplish by the time Buutenks got serious is meant to convey "Goku > Gohan".
Except...
Buutenks, even in the manga, wasted time kicking Tien unconscious. And then bragging about it. So to my mind, if Buu can make the mistake of letting time slip away there, he can make the same mistake again by not fighting Goku as super-seriously as possible. Making Goku's anime-only meager initial successes against Buu well within what the manga conveyed as well.
Goku's comment about wanting to wish for Gohan and Gotenks to come and fight Buu on the kai planet kinda sums up the question i think. It was Vegeta's call to not have them fight.
there was an interview about how ultimate gohan was the strongest unfused character by toriyama... that was before super tho
I don't doubt Gohan's power, endurance and potential but his experience in comparison
He will still win, the power gap is just too big
Mystic Gohan are you serious?!😅😂
_I love when Goku stated that super Saiyan three is a Power that can only be handled in otherworld_
_I also love when Vegeta stated to Goku, at least you’re stronger than your son was against cell, that helped me understand the dynamics of super saying in general._
_Put super Saiyan three that was displayed in the tournament Saga with Kepler and her sister was a stronger super Saiyan three than ultimate Gohan in that saga._
Good video.
It makes sense that Goku would tell depowered Piccolo-Buu that "Gohan can handle you now" simply because he knew Ultimate Gohan didn't burn energy as fast as his SSJ3 form.
Exactly...plus his SSJ3 form threatened the Earth every time he transformed into it
it' s simply the fact that gohan outclassed him without gotenks, goku couldn' t beat him
@@deadline6149 Goku didn't fight him without Gotenks
this is actually taking things out of context, first off:Goku just returned alive and it is stated that once you return alive you don't have instantly access to your full power in chapter 515 by Goku himself when he talked to Vegeta, 2nd:as you yourself mentioned, Goku said that he was going to lose by going out as he was aka as small as he was inside buu, also Goku legit powers down and isn't worried about Buuccolo, the reason for which he said: Gohan can handle you is because he wants the next generation to do what he does aka to protect the earth, you yourself showed it for Gotenks so applying it for Gohan too isn't a problem, also Kid Buu isn't inferior to Super Buu, it doesn't matter which continuity you look at, Kid Buu is the strongest buu, that's across guides, dbz anime, manga and db kai
4:10 “Buu’s power is going to be crucial in giving the final answer to our main question.” You are completely right in this statement, however, this is where you falter in your analysis. I will explain momentarily.
6:57 Your Voice impression of Piccolo is not too bad. I love how u kid around. That’s a positive quality to have as an adult.
Great video. I agree with getting evidence from the manga. I also mostly agree with what you said. However, what I got from piccolo's dialogue about superbuu being 'stronger' than buu was that he was'nt necessarily stronger but more agressive( uses his existing powers with straight up intent to harm) unlike buu who only plays with his enemies. I think of the splitting of evil buu from buu and absorbtion to be like a switch of modes not necessarily a power up. What do you think?
Thank you very much. You know as far as that statement with piccolo you have a point, and at a different perspective Super Buu could just be fat buu with fat buu releasing full power and evil, ready to fight. However, super buu is definitely stronger than the fat buu and this is proven with goku stating that he could take on fat buu at ssj3, but not super buu.
Definitely a power up.
@@Neverend117 also when u said its filler when ssj3 goku kept up with super buu, it doesn't matter if its filler since its still a feat
Congrats on the views keep grinding man
@@Neverend117 Goku was probably saying that he or Vegeta can't beat Super Boo while being tiny, there was no guarantee he would grow to his normal size while being out of Super Boo's body, I think that is why he says he can't beat him "like this"
Still talking about this shit 15 years later.....
You earned a sub my friend, excellent dialogue and pacing. I look forward to your future releases!
Thank you I appreciate this. More coming soon brotha
*Id always say Goku is stronger than Gohan. Gohan couldn’t land a single hit on Buutenks but Goku did way better than Gohan ever did. Goku blasted Buutenks down for a minute. Gotenks says He was a little stronger than Super Buu. Supreme Kai says Kid Buu was the strongest form. Goku says before fighting Kid Buu he was totally holding back the whole time to let Gohan & Gotenks fight. How could Super Buu be stronger than Kid Buu? Piccolo says Gotenks is equal to Super Buu. Goku was way stronger than Gotenks and Gohan, Goku blasting Buutenks down was the proof everyone already knows, Gohan not being able to scratch Buutenks. I’ll burn the Manga. Animation all the way.*
*Edit. Gohan got 4 good hits at the beginning before he got destroyed. Had to rewatch to make sure. Goku wasnt getting that damaged from the attacks though. He would just stand or flip up.*
It's not even close. Even if we're being extremely charitable to SS3 Goku, Gohan makes him a joke
I believe you but just for the sake of argument. Did goku tell vegeta that he was stronger than both of them because he hadn’t shown vegeta ssj3 at this point?
Vegets found out in otherworld about goku achieving SSJ3 before fusion and before they were absorbed. For the sake of argument of course.
No matter how much stronger gohan was at this point he could not beat goku. The sad fact is that gohan was and probably still is just incapable of defeating anyone unaided. He’s too much of a wimp
Lol. No.
Gohan smacks super Buu. Goku SSJ3 barely kept up with kid Buu, who is WEAKER than super buu
i find it funny that a kai didnt think to grab gohan when they were fighting kid buu. But of course goku show.
Yeah It's probably a plothole but you could just headcanon that Goku followed his saiyan instincts and just wanted a good fight despite the whole universe being in danger.
This isn't really the first time he's done that either... *cough* Cell *cough*.
2 things:
1 Goku saying, "I could have beaten the fat buu" is NOT the same thing as saying he was stronger than the fat Buu, being stronger than someone and beating them doesnt have to necessarily be a thing. I am 100% certain that Krillen would have defeated Nappa if Nappa didnt dodge that destructo disk, but that still wouldnt in any way made Krillen as strong or stronger than Nappa, there was still a massive power delta between the 2 of them.
2 Gohan's post old kai release is NOT a transformation, I have quite a few reasons for this, the first is Old kai said that Gohan isnt transformed, the second is Goku says he is normal also, Picollo also said he wasnt transformed, if this was a form, then Goku would have found it, Goku found a transformation past SSJ2, so he was on the same trajectory as Gohan as Gohan also went SSJ2, so his next step should have been "Mystic" if that was actually a supposed form, but both Goku and Gotenks skipped the "mystic form" entirely, this is no time for Gohan to all of a sudden get a new transformation that 2 other characters somehow skipped. The old kai told Goku to not go SSJ when he was going to fight Buu and he and Gohan fuse, the reason was because he said sense the fusion from the rings is permanent, he doesnt know the effects of how staying powered up like that forever would have on the fusion, so if that is the case, he should have told Gohan to power down into his "base form" which never happened, he was going to fuse with Gohan as is, why? Because Gohan was in his base form, what "mystic Gohan" is, is nothing more than when Vegeta powered up in the Saiyan series in front of Goku before he went X3 Kaioken, and infront of Frieza after he got healed by Dende, the hair change? If it wasnt for the fact Vegeta's hair never changes, I am sure his hair would have changed forms each of the 2 times he powered up I named, his facial change? He looks to me exactly the same there as Future Gohan, in short its his matured adult, battle-ready face.
On the subject of Gohan and Buu with Gotenks and Picollo absorbed, I dont think that Buu was a whole lot stronger than Gohan the way alot of people want to believe, Goku said he lost over 1/3 of his power, so am I supposed to believe Gohan wasnt atleast that much stronger than Super Buu? The dude didnt even get an exercise vs Super Buu, the power "gap" seemed more than it was because of Gohan's lack of training for 7 years, Picollo's mind, and Gohan not getting to see that fight; also Buu's approach to that fight was far far far different than the filler Goku fight, he only did counterattacks and ranged energy-based attacks on Gohan, whereas he was willing to charged Goku with full confidence head on, there is your difference right there.
Another point is, IF Goku was stronger than Gohan, he would have simply absorbed Goku, that would have easily taken care of Gohan IF Goku was stronger.
Nice video 💪🏻
Thanks!
Sup Broku, looking forward to the return!
This is pretty much agreed on by the community nowadays. But you wouldn't believe how many debates on who was stronger SSj3 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan / Kid Buu VS Super Buu if you look back 5-10 years on db forums, TH-cam and Reddit etc.
The dragon ball games continue to pretend that Kid Buu is an equal or stronger than Super Buu though for some reason though...
Notice how the only ppl who swear ssj3 goku is stronger than gohan are those who;
1. Think kid buu is the strongest buu
2. Fabricate goku getting zenkais when he doesn’t experience anything near death the whole saga, even against kid buu
3. Look at the anime filler that contradicts itself when ssj goku fights clone ultimate gohan, then right after says he can’t beat a super buu who was getting washed by ultimate gohan 😭😭😭
4. Try to write a different story than what was made
Kid buu doesn’t have to be the strongest buu to be stronger than super buu
Goku said super buu was stronger because he was 4 inches tall and literally inside him
Goku is relative to Kidd buu and Kidd buu is stronger than super buu that’s why people compare him to buuhan
@@sebtw8918 goku said “we can’t go out there like this” when literally in the next sentence goku refers to fusion and berates vegeta for destroying the potara
@@sebtw8918 explain candy vegito then?
No difficulty, you have a form that doesn't even use as much ki as even regular Super Saiyan vs a form that can be maintained for like, 10 minutes tops. Yeah Goku has a higher fight IQ but the gap between them is just way too big that he wouldn't be able to keep up with Gohan's speed.
ok, so i like your conclusion you came to and how you explain it. i also agree that gohan is the strongest unfused character. what I don't agree with is super buu being stronger than kid buu. kid buu is literally the strongest form of the pure buu (meaning buu without absorptions). and the fact that ssj3 goku can hang in there with him means he could hang in there with super buu. i think what he meant by he would kill us if we leave like this is he would simply catch goku and vegeta exhausted and in base and would kill them.
I agree, although the plot for buu didn't make much sense to begin with, fat buu is ssj2 majin vegeta level so weaker than goku, super buu is grey buu that asborbed fat so basically super buu is muscular fat buu same power level, so goku should still win, but buus power scaling doesn't make sense anyways, because when super buu asborbed gotenks piccolo and gohan, and then goku and guys took out gohan and guys, Super buu SHRUNK 💀💀, and became kid buu?? which made 0 sense and somehow kid buu who was junior super buu somehow got when stronger than super buu, LITERALLY makes 0 sense, so i dont think u should overthink on why super buu is stronger than fat buu, we have to imply all buu form changes are stronger since it makes no sense, cuz if super buu is just muscular fat buu, shouldn't kid buu just be a weaker super buu aka fat buu since goku took out fat buu from super buus body? so shouldn't kid buu only be grey buu power level, which is even weaker than majin vegeta, again buu saga makes 0 sense, i copy pasted this message in another comment but i put it here too, the power scaling is weird
Kid Buu is not the strongest, Super Buuhan is the strongest...Kid Buu is simply the most unhinged because he has a child's mind, making him the most dangerous because he lacks control. Goku mentions this, stating that when Buu transformed from Super Buu to Kid Buu that his ki had actually reduced and that Buu had gotten weaker.
@@Mr10before9 i said pure form of buu, buuhan is an absorption. Buuhan and buutenks are clearly stronger than super buu and kid buu.
Goku also knows that he cannot maintain SSJ3. Even if he could beat Buu as super Buu, his stamina would run out. Gohan is still stronger though
Genki is supposed to be more potent than regular ki. This would actually be the very first time I’ve ever heard someone suggest life energy is less potent than normal energy. It’s not anyone’s fault tho, the writing in dragonball is so terrible you can make a case for all sorts of shit.
I mean since Laughingstockmedia backs this up, then it is definitive at this point. Gohan was stronger than Goku during this point. There is so much and so many people that back this up. And honestly Gohan being stronger than Goku doesn’t change Dragon Ball Z at all.
LSM knows his stuff!!
it wont be an argument because whatever the people say that take ssj3 goku's would be invalid or utterly wrong.
That "terrible Piccolo impression" was shockingly good hahah
7:11 “Super Buu is Stronger than Fat Buu, simple as that. It is blatantly obvious, but well said.
It is not blatantly obvious
@@Malthizarwell only for people that are very good at power scaling 😂
@@Malthizar I’ll breakdown it down. Simply put. Fat Buu is OP. Yet is The weakest. Grey Buu is far Stronger than Fat Buu. Super Buu is far Stronger than Grey Buu. Buff Buu, far Stronger than Super Buu. Kid Buu, far Stronger than Buff Buu. Kid Buu is the Original and Most Powerful Majin Buu. His backstory tells us, each and every variation of him is naturally weaker than the original.
There is a hierarchy of power, that does not change. Ever. In The Frieza Arc, Base form Frieza - 530,000. 1st Transformation Frieza - 775,000. 2nd Transformation Frieza 1,000,000. Final Form Frieza - 120,000,000.
The Cell Arc; No. 20, No. 19, No. 18, No. 17, No. 16, Imperfect Cell, Semi Perfect Cell, Perfect Cell, Super Perfect Cell.
The Buu Arc; Fat Buu 30%, Grey Buu 40%, Super Buu 60%, Buff Buu 70%, Kid Buu 100%.
As u can see.. from left to right. The hierarchy of power never changes. From weakest to Strongest. Many fans understand this hierarchy of power in the Frieza Arc, and The Cell. It is a very easy concept to grasp. However, when it comes to The Buu arc. These same fans now mysteriously pretend as if this basic concept is now somehow complicated. Whether there are numerical power level or not, the power scaling concept never changes.
The toxic fans & haters in disguise choose to be very disingenuous when it comes to the Buu Arc, bcuz they understand what the hierarchy of power is, and what it means for The Z fighters. Particularly who The Strongest Z fighter is in the Buu Arc. Goku was The Strongest In The Universe in the Frieza Arc. Gohan Became The Strongest In The Universe during The Cell Arc (Thanks to Goku’s specifically training him, they don’t like to acknowledge that). This is sonethin the fans love, cuz they wanna see Gohan become stronger than Goku. Coo, I’m on board, it is a great moment and it fits the story narrative.
Then we come to the Buu arc. Now we have a problem. Bcuz many character driven fans and haters of the DB series both want one thing. Not to see Goku as The Strongest. These folks have been around in the previous two arcs. But they were silent bcuz most fans of the series love the two previous arcs. However, the 3rd arc is the least well received bcuz it does not fit these fans & haters narrative. Which is to see Goku not be The Strongest. They are willing to lie, and say the most in order to not deal with this reality. The power scaling concept that has been consistent throughout the whole series. They now wish to lie and become very disingenuous bcuz they refuse to accept the truth. That’s what’s been goin on for years.
I really don't understand the buu scaling, so in the saga, Fat buu splits and a grey counter part has his half power and absorbs fat buu, and instead of fat buu becoming fat but evil he gets a tall muscular form which makes 0 sense and is somehow according to goku stronger the than fat buu? because super buu is literally fat buu split but then evil tookover, I don't understand how super buu is stronger, than when vegito got absorbed and goku took out the z fighters and buu from super buus body, he became a kid again made no sense and somehow the kid without the fat buu asborbed is still pink and not grey and is also stronger than super buu?? I never understood kid buus power scaling and super buus
@@jordanglasper1064 very interesting take on the fandoms treatment of arcs and goku, I like it, U agree the fandom hates goku for 0 reason and garggling cell saga teen gohan, i like buu saga gohan more and generally dont like the cell arcs writing choices but i also don't like the buu arc much better to me after the namek saga left dbz became more about entertainment and less about good writing because namek saga did not have as much questionable moments as cell and buu saga and the villian was actually good in the namek and saiyan saga, imo, but the senzu bean was a good example of fans not understanding Goku, it takes u down a rabbit hole of thoughts, goku haters tend to be vegeta fan boys, vegeta fanboys tend to be cell arc fanboys, cell arc fanboys tend to be teen gohan fanboys, teen gohan fanboys tend to be buu saga haters, buu saga haters tend to hate anything after the cell arc, too much to go through honestly 💀
another point to add to the spirit bomb argument: wouldnt it make sense if the spirit bomb, as strong as it is, relies on the guy pushing it? its just a mass of energy, and since goku was so weakened, kid buu managed to push it back at him
When Gohan bounced it back at Vegeta, it messed him up royally, but not enough to call an ambulance.
Accurate video with proof and most importantly no bias😊
Great video! However, i dont get the final conclusion that SSJ3 Goku is anywhere near Ultimate Gohan. Gohan is far far superior to Super Buu but the gap between Super Buu and Goku is far enough that him and Vegeta jumpin his ass wouldn't do anything.
I think its obvious that Gohan is leagues above Goku Lv3 which is why the Hirudigarn movie made no sense. Gohan shoulda solo'd that thing if Goku beat it
This isn’t a debate, it’s very clear in both Gohan is stronger
Goku could have beaten Fat Buu by teleporting to him and then taking him to other world right before he had to go back, because his Super Saiyan 3 state had less of a drawback in his dead body and the time would no longer be limited. He could have taught fusion beforehand and not transformed into Super Saiyan 3 yet and helped the next generation a lot still by beating Buu when he had the chance. Give the next generation a technique that they could use in future battles. Have Vegeta get revived and Vegeta and Gohan can learn fusion from the kids, Piccolo, and Krillin. Tien and Yamcha could learn it, too. Generally making everyone way stronger on average.
Never thought of goku potentially just transferring buu to other world but that’s an interesting idea. Assuming he could get hold of buu and allowed enough time to concentrate, buu has the ability to copy techniques, similar to how he copied the Kamehameha in the fight. Also note kid buu copied instant transmission and chased goku and vegeta, so fat buu may have been able to copy it too. This could result in a more dangerous threat who can go anywhere he wanted in an instant
you're right but the plot dragged on
i doubt it works like that. Goku had a sort of living stamp on him for a day going back to otherworlds environment wouldn't change that. It's more like setting a meter it's outside of his control if you leave the parking spot early or not
Shows how unnecessary the Buu saga was, they literally just chose to drag it on because of stupid decisions. Frieza saga, no one had a choice. Goku had to fight
The answer is obviously no.
We can just use logic.
Regardless of who you think is stronger Super Buu or Kid Buu, they are at least comparable power wise. Gohan was far and away more powerful than Super Buu where Goku and Kid Buu were more closely matched.
Another question:
Would Ultimate/Mystic Gohan be as strong/stronger than base Vegito if he didn't stop to train?
I doubt it. Vegito is 100% Sayian filled with 2 of their strongest ever. They have honed battle instincts and have that desire to battle. Gohan always wanted a peaceful life, not fight life threatening battles. Even with training he'll lose out because of that factor
he would wash vegito, bro Gohan was above ssj3 dead goku that trained for 7 years, imagine gohan training he would be OP, he would be a good contender for beerus in battle of gods
Goku: “I stand no chance against buu, vegeta and i were the same strength.”
Reality: Goku is STRONGER than buu.
Goku: “buu is more powerful than either of us! He’ll kill us if we fight him.”
Reality: goku battles fairly evenly with a slightly more powerful version of buu.
Though it’s true that ultimate gohan is stronger than ssj3 goku, goku’s quotes cannot be used as evidence for anything. Kid buu is stronger than Super Buu by a very small margin. Goku contradicted himself twice. His quotes in the buu Saga Are not evidence for anything.
First, no doubt Ultimate is stronger than ss3.
I still don’t think he coulda beat Buu. Buu showed a godly amount of resistance to physical and ki attacks. All the Buu’s. Fat Buu pulled himself right back together after Vegeta released all his energy to kill him. Gotenks vaporized Super Buu, piece by piece. Put himself together. Vegito made a game of it. Kid Buu blew himself and multiple planets to piece’s multiple times.
What u said about the genki-dama made me think, nobody but Goku was gonna be able to pull it off because he was the only one who coulda pulled a technique like that minus Tien. Raw power just wasn’t gonna get it done.
U should do a video on how u think Buu’s fusion works.
It seems like it works both ways and if it does we can’t definitively say who stronger out of the Buu’s. Absorbing the Kai’s seems to have negatively effected Buu. The fusion wearing off had negative effects. Buuhan shoulda be lightyears ahead of Vegito if Buu and Gohan were that far ahead of Goku and Vegeta. In the same way Buutenks was ahead of Ultimate…
In Dbz we can’t take statements too serious.
Ultimate Gohan, going by the statements, should have access to all of his power. Yet we have Beast Gohan now lol
Again, can’t take the statements literally. Sorry for the rant lol
Ultimate is stronger than ss3. Probably not by much and Goku could probably still get the dub.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your opinions. Thanks for watching too.
As for that video, I will be working on which buu is the strongest, and pretty much break down all the forms-which will kinda answer how it works with absorptions etc
@@Neverend117 But that is not what Piccolo said. The only thing Piccolo said was that Super Buu's body is in shape compared to Fat Buu's. When he said the change in his Ki, he talked about how evil it was; if Buu Ki had increased, Krillin would have noticed and gotten scared like usual. One thing people don't know about the Z Fighters is they can tell if someone Ki is good or evil. Thanks to Mr. Satan, Fat Buu Ki started to change into good Ki after the two idiots killed the dog. Fat Buu dispelled all of his evil Ki, and it transformed into the Skinny Buu. Skinny Buu ate Fat Buu and locked the good buu away. In the Buu arch, the only way Buu got stronger was by absorbing someone. Where did this increase in power come from? The only person Skinny Buu Absorbed was fat Buu! It's Basic math. If the original Fat buu is 100. Fat Buu - Skinny Buu =40. Skinny Buu=60 Fat Buu =40. Skinny Buu + fat Buu =100. Where is this extra Power coming from?
Even when you look at Kid Buu, it's still No different from Fat BUu or Super Buu. The only difference is his size; they are all the same. The only Buu's that are stronger is Buutenks and Buuhan because they are the only Buu's who absorbed other fighters to increase their power. You can see where their increase in power comes from Buutenks increase comes from Gotenks and Piccolo. Buuhan's power comes from Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan. Now we can say that Kid Buu Power decreased when he spat out fat Buu, the only time Buu might have been Weaker than Fat Buu or Super Buu.
If you say that Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu, then you need to explain where this increase in power came from? Piccolo never said Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu He just said he was in better shape. His body is better suited for fighting that; all he is saying is he lost weight.
@@sonnywoods6846 I really don't understand the buu scaling, so in the saga, Fat buu splits and a grey counter part has his half power and absorbs fat buu, and instead of fat buu becoming fat but evil he gets a tall muscular form which makes 0 sense and is somehow according to goku stronger the than fat buu? because super buu is literally fat buu split but then evil tookover, I don't understand how super buu is stronger, than when vegito got absorbed and goku took out the z fighters and buu from super buus body, he became a kid again made no sense and somehow the kid without the fat buu asborbed is still pink and not grey and is also stronger than super buu?? I never understood kid buus power scaling and super buus
Your comment was great and logical me and U think exactly the same but based off gokus statements kid buu he couldn't beat, majin vegeta> Fat buu so with your logic shouldn't have ssj vegeta and ssj3, goku stomped kid buu if hes the same level as fat buu, the issue is buu saga power scaling makes 0 sense it's as if every buu transformation he gets a power up
Your a clown Goku would stomp fat buu.
Very excellent power scaler. Some people dont understand how to scale thinks for making this page. Remember we can compare ss3 gotanks his base form was stronger than goku. When gotanks was ss1 u can see he can still fight super buu but then goes ss3. In his ss3 gotanks had a lot of trouble with super buu too and gohan came and woop super buu really bad while go tanks had trouble and go tanks is ss3 fusion. And there level wasn’t much different to goku. But mystic gohan easly defeated buuu compared to a ss3 form which led me to believe goku is slightly or as strong as super buu since he near gotanks level. But gohan easly beat super buu like one tap about to one shot him. So ss3 goku can’t possibly be near mystic level since goku base form isnt as strong as gotanks
you really explaining this like a pro
thank you so much
Oh thanks, I appreciate it!
Ha honestly after thinking about it a while when adding this to my watch list I concluded also that ultimate gohan was stronger and could beat ssj3 goku. Great video too and love all the art!! Thank you
Very good. Honestly though I feel as though the whole "Canon vs. Non-canon stuff" is better thought of as different continuities.
Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the manga continuity un-questionably loses at least in the Buu Saga.
In the anime though the scaling is much different so that could have a different answer.
Fantastic video man! Can't wait to see more from you.
Thank you!
gohan kept up with ssj blue as well. and he was just "Getting back in shape"
Thats just super bs calm down
@@forcecalibration924gohan was training for 2 years at that point
@@forcecalibration924 He's making a simple comment and your response is it's bs and to calm down? I think you're the one who needs that lol
Yeaaah Super power scaling is not a good reference...
He did not keep up with SSB Goku
He kept up with ssj2 Goku who had the upper hand the majority of the fight
They exchanged 2 hits in blue while Gohan begged Goku to stop holding back and then got one shot by blue kaioken
It's just the same scenario as Goku vs Krillin just less surpressed.
I always thought it went in this order (as far as power not regeneration or durability) by the end of Z:
1. Vegito
2. Buuhan
3. Buutenks
4. Ultimate Gohan
5. Buucolo
6. SSJ 3 Gotenks
7. Super Buu
8. Kid Buu / and or Uub after Goku training
9. SSJ 3 Goku
10. Evil Grey Buu
11. Fat Buu/and or Uub maybe
12. Vegeta
13. Uub
Bro, who tf is out there saying SS3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan 💀 Like, did they even watch the show?
Bro, you’d be surprised. The main reason ppl even try to argue is because they want to upscale kid buu to being the strongest. Usually, kid buu stans will say goku got a bunch of zenkais during the buu saga, when he literally doesn’t get in any near death experience at all in the buu saga, even against kid buu, so he doesn’t get any large zenkais.
The other issue is because of the IDIOTIC filler with goku fighting clone gohan as a ssj, which contradicts itself when later on koi says he can’t beat super buu without potara. Kid buu stans don’t even acknowledge how dumb the filler clone stuff is, but still swear ssj goku should be able to beat ultimate gohan when, again, he doesn’t go through any training or any zenkais.
People like to fabricate goku getting stronger throughout the buu saga, when it just isn’t the case.
Unfortunately, some fans want to create the story instead of talk about the story
@@bzdagoatKidd Buu doesn’t have to be strongest buu to be stronger than Kidd buu
Goku said super buu was stronger because he was inside of him
Also why would they make Kidd buu weaker than super buu
@@sebtw8918 I'm pretty sure it's explained in story that Kid Buu isn't the strongest Buu, he's just the most vicious which is what makes him the most dangerous.
@@jayb8934 hair right I literally found this out like 2 hours ago and was like oh
So sorry
Then why did they decided to go with the genkidama against kid buu? At that point Gohan was already alive, seems to me like pretty clear evidence they.didn't have much faith in gohan against kid buu
Can't take what Goku said there to be facts that he could have beaten fat boo with super Saiyan 3 when he didn't see the extent boo could regenerate and his stamina
Video was good and pure facts 🔥
Honestly, im in the vast vast VAST minority but I strongly believe Fat Buu was stronger than kid Buu and there's strong evidence for it
Fat Buu fought DEAD Goku Lv3 (so much higher stamina) and after watching the fight multiple times, once Fat Buu's competitive fire was lit, it looked like he took a slight upper hand against Goku. He was definitely surprised by Buu's strength
At worst, Fat Buu was equal to DEAD Goku Lv3 as both were holding back but Goku clearly looked like he was breaking a sweat while Buu looked unfazed and even excited
Watch the Fight again. Fat Buu might've been stronger than Lv3 Goku on the slick but he definitely looked stronger than Kid Buu who fought Goku in his physical body
@@jdrmanmusiqking fat Buu was stronger than kid Buu
@@jdrmanmusiqkingno he wasn’t 😭 you gotta reread dbz
@@Hal-wu2ch great analysis there. Mustve went to Harvard to learn such amazingly precise use of emoji's
Tyler: We’ll use the manga because the anime has filler and dub changes that confuse the audience.
Also Tyler: Puts a video out about Ultimate Gohan, but focuses on 0:31 “Mystic Gohan”.
Only in the movies
Cuz I swear the tapion movie makes it seem like Goku is stronger than both ultimate gohan and Gotenks💀
More dbz fans really need to learn how the genki dama works. People who think kid buu could take Gohan always bring up that argument and I have to keep myself from mentally checking out cause bruh.... good video
Hey man, great bideo, your points make alot of sense out of what "Ultimate" really means in the context of Super where he trains and grows...even stronger than his Ultimate form. I feel like Beast Gohan kinda flies in the face of the "Ultimate= Gohan's max, rage-boosted power without needing him to rage," but then again it feela like they pulled it out of thin air mixed with memba-berries anyway.
Thank you and yeah..beast is a whole other animal to dissect lol. Maybe after the super hero arc in the manga is over, Ill dive into gohan beast
That's because the series has never made sense and trying to make sense of it is maybe fun as a fan but is a waste of time objectively
@@dannybradley8391 EXACTLY
Bro you kinda sound like Geekdom101, great content keep it up
great video, completely agree ssj3 goku is weaker than ultimate. quick question, what would you say about the argument about goku and vegeta's size affecting power and that the statement about super buu was goku talking about him being small against super buu?
Thank you! And I would say it’s irrelevant bc goku states, and I’m paraphrasing here, that they’ll get killed if they go out like this. So even at full size, out of boos body, they’d get beat
@@Neverend117 **Like this** means at full size? Reading comprehension left the chat.
8:45 I think the reason Goku said this (now Gohan can handle you) has little to do with their power levels, but rather because: A) Gohan was battered up while Goku was still fresh (even though Dende healed him earlier, but I believe Dende only heals wounds without restoring stamina... I could be wrong though), and B) This was Gohan's fight to begin with, and Goku simply returned the right to finish off Buu to him.
I still think Ultimate Gohan is slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku though,, especially with the stamina draining factored in.
Piccolo did not say that Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu; he just said his body is better suited for fighting since he is in shape. When Piccolo says the change in Buu Ki, he is not talking about his power increasing if it did Increase, Krillin would have noticed. He is talking about how his Ki changed to pure evil. One thing a lot of fans don't know because of the dub version of DBZ is that the Z fighters can tell the difference between Evil Ki and Good Ki. Fat Buu Ki changed from evil to Good thanks to Mr. Satan. But when he changed to Super Buu, his Ki changed to Pure evil without a hint of good in it.
When it comes to power Fat Buu before the split is equal to Super Buu. During the Buu arch, the only way Buu gets stronger is by absorbing other fighters. If Super Buu is stronger than the original Fat Buu, where did this increase in Power come from? The only way he increases his power is by absorbing someone stronger. The only difference between Fat Buu and Super Buu is one is fat, and the other one is in shape, as stated by Piccolo.
True
lol dude Super Buu is stronger because its Gray Buu+Fat Buu in one body
I agree, although the plot for buu didn't make much sense to begin with, fat buu is ssj2 majin vegeta level so weaker than goku, super buu is grey buu that asborbed fat so basically super buu is muscular fat buu same power level, so goku should still win, but buus power scaling doesn't make sense anyways, because when super buu asborbed gotenks piccolo and gohan, and then goku and guys took out gohan and guys, Super buu SHRUNK 💀💀, and became kid buu?? which made 0 sense and somehow kid buu who was junior super buu somehow got when stronger than super buu, LITERALLY makes 0 sense, so i dont think u should overthink on why super buu is stronger than fat buu, we have to imply all buu form changes are stronger since it makes no sense, cuz if super buu is just muscular fat buu, shouldn't kid buu just be a weaker super buu aka fat buu since goku took out fat buu from super buus body? so shouldn't kid buu only be grey buu power level, which is even weaker than majin vegeta, again buu saga makes 0 sense
@@bleeblah8184my guy grey buu is literally fat buus half power, thats like goku splitting himself in half and u saying if goku fuses with it then hes even stronger than before the split 😂
Tbf, even with that it is still consistent that Super Buu>Fat Buu.
Yall are forgetting a very important detail when goku was talking to vegeta fighting kid buu he said yes if i was at full power I could defeat him but i wanted yal to defend the world i wont always be here , second when goku and vegeata fought super buu he already absorbed gohan and sssj3 gotenks.. also when gohan tried to get earring he had already absorbed gotenks which is why gohan couldnt defeat him anymore3rd when super buu was turning to kid buu vegeta said he is getting stronger which was also was followed up by supreme ki when he next told the story about kid buu and how he was weakend by abortion of the south ki
Sure, Gohan is a lot stronger, but Gohan isn't goku and goku solos.
Great analysis man.
What is there to debate about. Goku was evenly matched with fat Boo. Gohan wiped the floor with Super Boo. End of discussion
Glyde great video. You answered a question I've had for many years 🙏
Ultimate Gohan has always been stated to be the strongest unfused character in the Buu Saga
Strongest and winning in a fight are two completely different things
Never been stated before
@@injuringtk3346 It has always been stated that Ultimate Gohan was the strongest unfused character in the Buu saga
@@anderswallin3883 never stated before
@@anderswallin3883Toriyama never said that
Actually no Goku is the strongest at the Buu saga 💀inside Buu body he was tiny and didn't have his full power hence why super Buu would beat him 😭so many statements and guide books stating Goku is the strongest non fused fighter
Gohan stomps. No stamina issues either.
8:35 because the major plot point in this scene was so that goku and gohan would defeat Buu together but now they dont have to since hes nerfed.
Easy
Saying kid buu is stronger than gohan because he pushed back goku's spirit bomb, is like saying jiren is stronger than both omni kings because when both of them gave goku their energy for the spirit bomb, jiren was still able to push it back with one hand lol
Fucking amazing breakdown! You deserve every like
@@jaquilmuhammed3862 I love this. Made my day, thank you. And don’t worry, the uploads are about to be back very very soon. Stay tuned 💯
Probably yes, but only because Goku has a lot of battle experience at his back + it's a martial artist not just a powerful brawler. Gohan has higher power in ultimate but what else? Masenko and kamehameha? Gohan may be a smart guy in general, but in battle, Goku wins if it's a fast battle or is still dead ( because SSJ3 high energy drain), if not Gohan wins.
I think something people forget is that Saiyans get stronger every fight, and their power level increases DURING a fight. Gohan was done fighting after he lost and got absorbed. Goku wasn't.
When Goku asked for everybody's energy for the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu, Gohan gave his own ki and it wasn't enough to kill Buu.
I think it's reasonable to assume Goku's SSJ3 was close to, if not equal to, Ultimate Gohan by that point.
I’m quite sure wrath of the dragon Goku while not Canon could defeat ultimate gohan. In raw power and speed I can grant that gohan could be stronger. But goku is a much smarter fighter and can close the gap between opponents where literally everyone else in the whole damn show gets folded if they are even slightly weaker than the enemy whereas goku always does well when on the back foot.
Well remember the movies are definitely completely separate from the main series, that includes powers and feats
Movie 13 takes place after majin buu saga at least "inspiration wise" the movies have a continuity of their own with some intersections here and there with the show , considering its a Toei , the movies being somewhat an adaptation on the show itself (Koyama being the director)
Plus Dragon fist , is a hax in itself like Krillin cutting Frieza or Tien's Shin Kikoho
@@Neverend117 I know and agree with this. But I do believe some of the implications they push forward can be relevant to how the story can perceive characters. But even then I agree take it with a grain of salt
@@Neverend117Le cope
How do we rate SSJ3 Gotenks? He was putting in work on SuperBuu
Video comin this weekend 👀
Plus Fat Buu was able to fight Kid Buu too, lmao, and Kid Buu’s fighting form has the Kid Goku debuff compared to Super Buu like Super Buu is Roshi. Plus the bigger body can harness more Ki by default.
So it’s not looking good for Goku here even with his one-minute ki accumulation he wouldn’t get in a normal fight
yea i also didn't think this was a discussion. Even if you don't listen to them talk or read any words, it's blatantly implied gohan is the strongest until vegito
Not to mention that mystic Gohan was the closest thing to god ki at the moment
5:28 “Not expensing any energy thru Super Saiyan Transformations.” What u fail to realize is this all Super Saiyan Transformations, except for Super Saiyan God, all have “ki” leakage to varying degree.
However, all Traditional Super Saiyan Transformations can be trained to perfection in order to Master that state and completely stop “ki” leakage of the form, when or while powering up in that form. As shown with Goku & Gohan in the Cell arc.
The Saiyan base form is the only humanoid form that has no regular “ki” leakage during a power up.
this is conunting out anything in super dude, this is purely dbz. Plus super is the worst mess in powerscaling.
Goku said he was able to defeat Majin Buu with his SSJ3 form.
He said he might be able to. But he never said it with full confidence.
@@CosmicGoku529yes he's does when he's about to fight kid buu.
@@Geozone117 Actually in the canon Manga Goku tells Piccolo that he wasn't strong enough to beat Majn Buu.
Finally thank you!
Thank you for watching!
Im sure he can. Then u gotta ask yourself why didn’t they bring gohan to fight kid buu? Therefor ss3 goku had the best chance to beat kid buu. If gohan was stronger they would’ve brung/instant transmission or wished gohan there. My logical answer.
People don’t like to hear that answer tbh lol 😂. Ultimate Gohan is my favorite Gohan form but sometimes he’s a bit overhyped. Some people cap and have him like 8 times stronger than ss3 or sone crazy number like that. If that was the case he would have killed Buutenks no problem.
Used google, Here's your answer:
They didn't want to bring back Gohan because they wanted to use the spirit bomb so the earthlings can "save themselves."
Genki Dama = Spirit Bomb
Source:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the Dragon Balls
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No. Start making ready for... Genki Dama!"
Goku: "G-Genki...?! D-Did you just...?! That's your great plan?! It won't work! Taking a bit of energy from everyone on Earth won't be nearly enough for-"
Vegeta: "I said, let the Earthlings save themselves for once! You're going to take more than a bit! Take as much energy as you can!"
@@midsectionmark8956 😂facts
@@co8wei gohan & gotenks would’ve got washed by kid buu anyways. Gohan & gotenks really didn’t win any fights in that arc.