Here’s the thing. Young people produce loads of collagen naturally. So you may be filling an already full cup. How about the studies in people over 60 because that is when it matters and may make a genuine difference
Collagen is a fancy word for specific amino acids that make up structural tissues of the body (cartilage, ligaments, bone, skin, etc) If you’re consuming adequate protein in your diet, you are already getting these amino acids in. Collagen is a sham.
Yeah, cuz ppl over 60 already learned how to digest whole proteins and peptides without breaking them down to individual amino acids. Makes total fucking sense.
I've read that glycine production slows after 30 and therefore supplementing with collagen could potentially stall connective tissue decline. I hope we get a study with older people
Also, I really do not understand why they keep using young male research subjects. They are going to be fine no matter of what! I think these studies should be really focusing on aging population. I cannot imaging they would not find subjects for a study like this. Any university has staff and professors and I am sure they are all aging too....
cuz young males are your most anabolic population. If you make untrained young male train, you also should see increase in anabolic response in connective tissue. This study shows, that collagen shows no increase in connective tissue growth against placebo even in most growth-prone population. Good luck trying to repair joints that are already degrading with that.
All i know is this starting in my 30s i was getting bad knee pain to where i couldn't even do leg press or many other leg exercises and after i introduced collagen and that's the only change i made the pain was going away by 3-4 weeks and the one time i stopped taking it started to come back .. and im very skeptical of supplements but thsts one that made a noticeable difference for me. So i dont know how it works, or why, if its amino acids or whatnot but I'll take it forever, not for the protein i treat it as a joint supplement
Same. When I was 27 I had some minor knee issues when training. And that was 8 years ago. Since I took Collagen never again. Oh wait. Once, when I didn't take it for a month... And I immediately felt it again.. What a coincidence :D So, it clearly isn't placebo. Because I had so much to do that month that I just forgot about it.
Same it gets rid of my knee pain. Also my nails grow maybe 3 times faster. I don't take it for muscle protein synthesis. I take it for skin nails and joints like everyone else does.
Why focus on "connective tissue synthesis" when most people use collagen for their skin? Please do a video on the effect of collagen on skin health or lack thereof.
It’s likely the high amount of glycine in collagen that’s giving people skin benefits. I just use a glycine powder. A lot less expensive and I know its proven benefits.
Skin is made up of connective tissue, most of which is collagen. It makes perfect sense to study connective tissue synthesis in response to collagen supplementation.
In case someone is wondering: In this study also hydroxyproline concentrations increased following collagen peptide supplementation (p < 0.05). This might matter as apparently the receptors that activate the collagen build-up in connective tissue (and skin cells) respond specifically to hydroxyproline or it's peptides. (from collagen) Previous to the discussed study results it was hypothesized by some that hydroxyproline supplementation might increase collagen in connective tissues. It does not seem to. Perhaps in some situations an effect could be shown, like in burn victims or otherwise injured, but likely not in healthy individuals.
You said the study only lasted a week, isn’t connective tissue turnover around 3-4 weeks though, so if the study was 6 weeks it may show collagen in the new connective tissues, also weight lifting is not the best practice for connective tissue gains, but rather jumping and sprinting high impact exercises would be superior for bone and connective tissue Adaptation.
Pretty much what I was thinking. 1 week just doesn't sound long enough to draw any real conclusions, unless maybe the company is claiming it can be effective in that short a time.
Would love to have more research on the older community (weird to think of myself in that manner). I've noticed much more joint pain as I age, especially getting back to working out, and also my skin elasticity lessening. Figure at worst collagen is just a little waste of $. Few months into use I've noticed increased nail/hair growth but not sure anything more. Will keep it up longer and see.
@@ac27934 I've heard about this, but the findings on these studies on humans(!) are mixed. Maybe @biolayne can give us an update? Personally I feel fine when I take 1500 mg in the morning.
Thats good to hear that its helped with the pain management of your arthritic shoulder:-( As I've got an arthritic hip & what was originally a labral tear in my shoulder, but didn't have any surgery (Instead I was having H.B.O.T) So it would be interesting to hear what collagen type you were using? T.I.A
While it doesn’t seem to do much of anything for connective tissue, there is some decent scientific evidence showing that it can improve skin health and the appearance or wrinkles/fine lines.
Yes ive also seen these, would be great if layne could over these instead. Especially when hes trying to answer if collagen supplements are overall effective. Which they seem to be in some areas.
@@cyclamen831Layne says in this video that those results were shown in this study. BUT he went on to say that mechanistically it doesn’t make sense why so he’s reluctant to recommend it. Just watch the video lol
@ also, a reason for this is the same reason he doenst go over more benefits of cold plunges. It’s not his speciality. Layne is not the type to cover something that he isn’t an expert in cause he could be wrong. If you want skin advice, find a good dermatologist to follow. Layne is a protein/nutrition expert. Which is why he mainly covers protein synthesis in this.
If you care about your skin appearance and or skin health, use a moisturizer with SPF first. Pretty much everything else is secondary to that. Also look into topical retinoids, maybe. There is more substantial evidence that it improves skin appearance (including collagen in skin, if I recall correctly)
this is IN MUSCLE. Muscle is few percent collagen obviously. And no one takes it to increase muscle collagen. It seems logical that we couldnt even measure slight changes in this little amount of collagen in muscle. And in such little amount there is also not a high demand for collagen... so why would it even do something.
Personal observation that I realize could be subjective- My hair growth is next level since I started taking collagen, also seems more shiny and luscious 😊
In my late 40's I started taking collagen for knee and joint pain specifically. I do a lot of mountain biking and trail running. I'm not sure if it's placebo, but it really seems to help my knees. It would be interesting to study if there is any kind of difference in young vs old. The referenced study is 25 year olds. Seems like when you are young, you have the world by the balls and don't need to supplement anything. 🤣 I never felt the need to supplement when I was 25. I'm 51 and blood work has revealed the need to supplement several things like DHEA, B12, VitD, Testosterone, Thyroid, Folic Acid.
It also helped my knees when I started taking it at 27, and I didn't even have bad knees. Just sometimes they hurt from squatting or whatever. I don't think it's a placebo, I just think there are no long-term studies. Collagen synthesis takes a lot of time. They should do this over 2 years and then check.
My wife (60 year old) swear that in just two weeks collagen supplementation cleared her knee pain, that lasted more than a year. I was using collagen after surgery, and she tried it when I told her it might help her for wrinkles (it didn't seem to work for that, but I won't tell her this part).
Ive cycled on and off collagen and have noticed a difference in how my knees feel when im on it and off it. Im 36, healthy, exercise frequently with a mix of resistance, endurance, and mobility training. Been active my entire life and in tune with my body. I'm not sold on the idea it's placebo, could be but regardless I have felt a noticable difference.
Thanks for including links to the studies! The second study showed higher average connective protein synthesis rates for whey and collagen vs. placebo, but it didn't rise to the level of statistical significance. There is also a section at the end with links to similar articles, including one titled "Ingestion of a Whey Plus Collagen Protein Blend Increases Myofibrillar and Muscle Connective Protein Synthesis Rates" -- so maybe taking both is the answer? I put both in my coffee, and combined with light lifting, my bad knee is getting better -- slowly but steadily.
Hey Dr. Layne, I personally strength train for gymnastics, focusing on moves like the iron cross, Maltese, and planche. These exercises place a huge amount of pressure on the connective tissue, and I used to experience significant pain in my biceps tendons before I started taking collagen. Literally three hours after my first dose of collagen, my pain decreased significantly. Ever since, I’ve been taking collagen, and whenever I stop, the pain slowly comes back. What do you think?
Almost certainly placebo effect, three hours after consuming collagen isn't enough time for it to even be digested, let alone be taken up by connective tissue.
It is significantly chondroprotective, so with continued ingestion you are protecting your joints and essentially improving their function (by decreasing damage from use and encouraging healing and recovery) which has the downstream effect of making you less sore, just like your knees /and legs/ would be less sore after a long walk. /It is not placebo/, it has both direct and indirect effects. Keep on doing what you are doing, it is not in your head at all. What it is not going to do is be great for building muscle /directly/, but protecting and improving joint function can certainly help you exercise harder and recover more quickly.
A 15g scoop a day is a miniscule amount. When I've supplemented with collagen and noticed benefits in injury recovery, I was taking several times that amount a couple of times a day.
I'm just saying that since taking Collagen I stopped having knee pain (from squatting), and my skin health overall increased to a very high degree, to a point where everyone asks me what I'm doing... And I took Protein powder over that time, and it didn't have the same effect (despite having all the amino acids required to produce Collagen). So, for me it seems like there is something that we might have not discovered yet or looked at properly? In the end, it's not expensive, and it is natural (like you'd eat fish skin), so whatever. So, in the end, the worst thing it does is being a waste of money.
It doesn’t fit Layne’s agenda that collagen may strengthen connective tissue, so he isn’t looking or even thinking about the limitations and flaws in this study
Collagen contains a unique amino acid called hydroxyproline, which is why collagen supplementation may be able to increase collagen synthesis (in theory). I'm not saying it does, but there is a plausible mechanistic basis for how it might
These collagen studies could be another example of a product that has shown to not hurt, but also not be much help. It would be interesting to see what future studies show as far as any possible benefits that are still not known.
It does hurt the wallet, to be fair. Gelatin is a lot cheaper per gram and has not been shown to differ in effect in non-industry funded/sponsored human trails. It might even be that even cheaper proteins have just as much effect on connective tissue and skin as (overpriced) collagen supplements.
Hi there! Currently studying for my license exam to become a dietitian! And I really enjoy watching your videos as review and to re-enforce my learning 🤓
Collagen supplementation is for hair, skin and nails. It's why i take it and anecdotally it works for me. I just don't count it towards my daily protein target for MPS.
Here, for the Algorythm, and to say THANK YOU as some of your knowledge sharing here (along two other youtube science based channels) has helped me taking good decisions during the last year to repair my body, losing weight and training hard with more inspiration in my now 50 years young body. Blessings in all your doings, Layne!
As others noted, it would be interesting to see more studies in different populations, e.g. older subjects and especially during recovery from injury. I'm generally quite skeptical about collagen supplements, especially in the context of a sufficiently high overall protein intake. That said, after my recent quad tendon autograft ACL reconstruction, I did take 10-15g of collagen and 3-5g of glycine per day for the first few months. I figured it was a reasonably cheap and low risk insurance policy (akin to a multivitamin) that might be useful in my specific situation. For that matter, a placebo effect that made recovery feel better and faster was also a useful outcome.
I know it’s easy to clip the mic to your neck, but obviously that gets rustled and messes with the sound. What I have been doing recently Is just grabbing a heart rate monitor strap putting that on and then hooking the mic to that under my shirt, give that a shot, it makes the sound a lot less distorted. Love your stuff
@britsticher8889 Silica supplementation, vitamin d, vitamin C are some of the cofactors that have been shown to increase collagen production. Also, polyphenols found in green tea prevent collagen breakdown
Probably won't change anything - but as noted by others in these comments, studying connective tissue synthesis in young men between the ages of 22 and 28 seems intuitively pointless. Do young men even suffer connective tissue degeneration or anything that might stimulate a need for connective tissue synthesis for anything other than traumatic injury recovery? Not suggesting the results would be any different if tested on older adults, but simple logic seems to dictate older adults are the audience that most likely has actual age-related connective-tissue degradation and thus potential greatest benefit from collagen supplementation. Results might not be any different, but the point is - we don't know. As designed, this study seems almost pointless.
I take it to prevent joint injury, I understand the studies are building up against that working, but aside from cost, I don't see any harm in it. I also am interested if these studies focused on older people.
Great stuff. Reliable references and clear explanations. I'm stopping taking gelatin (= degraded collagen) supplement. It was a pain in the ass to dissolve and tasted shit anyway.
I bought some of this because gut health quacks said it *might* help with IBS/bowel conditions. I never noticed it working, but it's a field of health where you'll try just about anything if it means you'll get an ounce of relief. Many, many quacks in that space though.
I have often wondered about this. Given that large, undigested proteins moving across the lumen would be incredibly problematic, obviously deamination has to happen. Collagen cannot make it straight into the bloodstream. Do you think it is reasonable to suggest that the sheer concentration of glycine inherent in collagen protein could drive increased collagen production? Thanks for a great video.
The 2023 study you cite involved consuming the collagen AFTER the resistance exercise. Would be interesting to see a human study expanding on Keith Barr's work in which the collagen/gelatin is consumed BEFORE the exercise, allowing for the aminos/di and tri peptide concentrations to peak in the blood before stimulating the connective tissue.
I wonder about collagen protein derived from bone broth? I've been making my own and swear it has helped me recover and repair. I have 2-4 cups a day consistently. My family wants to choke me out for making it and smelling up the house. It better be good damnit.
One week?? IThe intructions on my collagen peptide supplement (Jamieson) says that 5 months are required. I have no idea if there is research to back that up. But I do know that connective tissue regeneration is a much slower process than muscle. One week does not make any sense whatsoever.
Connective tissues like tendons and ligaments don’t have blood supplies so they would be very to respond. I wonder if there is an effect out 6 months to a year. But in any case, that may be slow enough that supplementation doesn’t matter because you don’t need a lot of substrates to keep up with the rate of replacement or growth. Based on this though, it makes sense, perhaps a good quality protein like whey is all you need.
I took collagen for about four months to see if it would help heal a bad rash on my ankles and lower calves caused by an allergic reaction to a steroid cream. I took bovine collagen for awhile, then i took marine collagen for awhile, and neither of them helped with the rash, but what happened instead was that the skin on tops of both of my feet started getting really thick, so thick that it felt uncomfortable when I walked. Plus it looked funky which worried me. So I quit taking the collagen but it took nearly six months for the skin on tops of my feet to return to normal.
I'm not sure how they measure some these things for collagen or how the tests were done, but if one group was given whey then they could compare it to regular protein supplements. Maybe they have the same effect or more on skin etc. 🤷🏼♂️
I think it makes sense that it doesn't actually make a difference. (I may be wrong). My thought process is: If you are already consuming all the aminoacids in your diet through meats, whey protein, bcaas, etc, why would it make a difference to consume collagen?
I always advice that to everyone. I have some from the time I didn't take collagen but when I really exploded in terms of muscle mass and took Collagen nothing happened.
As someone with Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, I really wish there an ability to foster great collagen production. People with EDS are believed to have faulty production of collagen. ie we make it but it’s flawed, resulting in weak collagen. Producing more won’t directly help, but producing less as we age might why symptoms get worse in our 40s and beyond (at least they have for me)
After how bad your vegetable oil video was, I actually unsubscribed. So I was surprised to see this video pop up. Since I take collagen every day I figured I'd give it a listen. I'm still going to be taking collagen. At the least just for the glycine.
I just stepped on the band wagon. Wish I'd watched this video sooner. I'm desperate to heal my chronic injuries. I'm getting new chronic injuries all the time and I too am super skeptical on the efficacy of collagen peptides for connective tissue and cartilage repair. I just started taking type 2 bovine collagen. I guess I'll check back in 2 months for an update. 🤷🏻♂️
Glycine is more than just a building block for collagen; it plays a crucial role in metabolism too. It helps in synthesizing creatine, which boosts energy production in muscles, and can improve insulin sensitivity, aiding blood sugar control. Plus, it has antioxidant properties that reduce oxidative stress. Overall, glycine works with other amino acids to support muscle recovery and metabolic health, making it a valuable addition to our diet! Thus eating the whole animal as our ancestors did may aid nutritional deficiencies and/or imbalances in the long run.
I have no explanation for why but my nails only grow when I take my collagen daily. When I forget it for a few days, a couple weeks later all my nails break. Maybe it’s the glycine? 🤷♀️
Hydroxyproline is a unique amino acid found only in collagen, which is needed for collagen synthesis. If collagen supplementation does help, that's probably why- it provides tons of a limiting amino acid that you don't get from other protein sources. That's why the "collagen doesn't work better than any other protein" argument for connective tissue doesn't make sense, because even though the whole collagen protein is torn apart in digestion, you still get intact hydroxyproline
This study used young males. Young males produce enough collagen themselves and do not need supplements. They performed resistance training which does almost nothing to stimulate connective tissue growth. Connective tissue thickens from very heavy isometric and eccentric exercises, and it becomes adequately elastic when stressed by performing explosive exercises like leaping to build Achilles elasticity. So the study tests the effect of collagen supplements on people who should have no reason to benefit from it whatsoever. Test its effects on older people who are performing tendon specific training. That way, we’d know if collagen supplements help build connective tissue. This isn’t complicated.
Layne, hasn’t it been shown very recently that some collagen peptides are not broken by digestion and do enter the blood. Please excuse my non-scientific way if expressing myself. See the very recent video by Verhoeven.
@MBT372 haha thanks but I am starting to need the claimed benefits of collagen peptides! I have been taking Vital for about 8 months now and my skin got a lot more tighter but it's hard to isolate and conclude it was due to this supplement. The reason is I also added a few different skin care routines too and I started eating healthy.
Irrelevant video talking about a 1 week study, what is this BS? Since I've been taking collagen daily I have no more issues with my joints so these type of studies mean 0. And there are a lot of people getting the same benefits + skin, hair, nails with collagen.
@biolayne1 I feel like there were some studies that showed positive effects when using collagen supplements and vitamin c for connective tissue. I'm currently using collagen, mostly because i'm desperate in trying to heal some tendon issues, but sounds like it might be a waste of money :/
I had read similar. Only thing that really helped my acute tendon issues and injuries was BPC-157, which is a bit outside the normal supplementation line that most people draw
@@sidious-dy9rh I had oral BPC, which is not really the usual kind and also does not have strong scientific consensus on its effectiveness. I’ll say, though, I had a literally overnight change when I took it.
i do 2 scoops of vital proteins in my morning coffee. 2 cups 2 scoops. Seems like I have healthier skin, nails, hair. Might be the placebo effect. Costco usually has some really good Collagen powder on sale.
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Here’s the thing. Young people produce loads of collagen naturally. So you may be filling an already full cup. How about the studies in people over 60 because that is when it matters and may make a genuine difference
Collagen is a fancy word for specific amino acids that make up structural tissues of the body (cartilage, ligaments, bone, skin, etc)
If you’re consuming adequate protein in your diet, you are already getting these amino acids in.
Collagen is a sham.
Similar to when vitamin companies target fit and healthy people instead of the people that might actually be deficient in something.
A young person still needs raw materials and more of it to utilize.
Exactly
Yeah, cuz ppl over 60 already learned how to digest whole proteins and peptides without breaking them down to individual amino acids. Makes total fucking sense.
I've read that glycine production slows after 30 and therefore supplementing with collagen could potentially stall connective tissue decline. I hope we get a study with older people
Also, I really do not understand why they keep using young male research subjects. They are going to be fine no matter of what! I think these studies should be really focusing on aging population. I cannot imaging they would not find subjects for a study like this. Any university has staff and professors and I am sure they are all aging too....
its far easier to get college students to do these studies
@@NeuronIronyeah they tend to need more the money and more keen to efforts and taking risks that elder people
Adults have lives and families and don't care to be a lab rat. Not hard to understand
cuz young males are your most anabolic population. If you make untrained young male train, you also should see increase in anabolic response in connective tissue. This study shows, that collagen shows no increase in connective tissue growth against placebo even in most growth-prone population. Good luck trying to repair joints that are already degrading with that.
@@NeuronIron I'm old, where do I sign up?! I will do it for free
All i know is this starting in my 30s i was getting bad knee pain to where i couldn't even do leg press or many other leg exercises and after i introduced collagen and that's the only change i made the pain was going away by 3-4 weeks and the one time i stopped taking it started to come back .. and im very skeptical of supplements but thsts one that made a noticeable difference for me. So i dont know how it works, or why, if its amino acids or whatnot but I'll take it forever, not for the protein i treat it as a joint supplement
Same. When I was 27 I had some minor knee issues when training. And that was 8 years ago. Since I took Collagen never again. Oh wait. Once, when I didn't take it for a month... And I immediately felt it again.. What a coincidence :D So, it clearly isn't placebo. Because I had so much to do that month that I just forgot about it.
Same it gets rid of my knee pain. Also my nails grow maybe 3 times faster. I don't take it for muscle protein synthesis. I take it for skin nails and joints like everyone else does.
Why focus on "connective tissue synthesis" when most people use collagen for their skin? Please do a video on the effect of collagen on skin health or lack thereof.
Agreed
It’s likely the high amount of glycine in collagen that’s giving people skin benefits. I just use a glycine powder. A lot less expensive and I know its proven benefits.
Layne is a powerlifter so he naturally focuses on becoming as strong as possible without injury.
I use it for my joints
Skin is made up of connective tissue, most of which is collagen. It makes perfect sense to study connective tissue synthesis in response to collagen supplementation.
In case someone is wondering:
In this study also hydroxyproline concentrations increased following collagen peptide supplementation (p < 0.05).
This might matter as apparently the receptors that activate the collagen build-up in connective tissue (and skin cells) respond specifically to hydroxyproline or it's peptides. (from collagen)
Previous to the discussed study results it was hypothesized by some that hydroxyproline supplementation might increase collagen in connective tissues. It does not seem to. Perhaps in some situations an effect could be shown, like in burn victims or otherwise injured, but likely not in healthy individuals.
You said the study only lasted a week, isn’t connective tissue turnover around 3-4 weeks though, so if the study was 6 weeks it may show collagen in the new connective tissues, also weight lifting is not the best practice for connective tissue gains, but rather jumping and sprinting high impact exercises would be superior for bone and connective tissue Adaptation.
Pretty much what I was thinking. 1 week just doesn't sound long enough to draw any real conclusions, unless maybe the company is claiming it can be effective in that short a time.
Why would you need full turnover to see the results?
Yeah the study should be 6 months at least. To see the collagen working.
@@davorzdralo8000because results?
@@dodgek5270 yes, results. You get those much sooner than the full turnover of tissue. So why would you need to wait that long?
Would love to have more research on the older community (weird to think of myself in that manner). I've noticed much more joint pain as I age, especially getting back to working out, and also my skin elasticity lessening. Figure at worst collagen is just a little waste of $. Few months into use I've noticed increased nail/hair growth but not sure anything more. Will keep it up longer and see.
As for joint pain, have a look at glucosamine and chondroitin (and yes, you can find reseach on this).
@@the_notorious_basglucosamine could be problematic for insulin resistance. See Ben Bikman's video on this.
@@the_notorious_basglucosamine could be problematic for insulin resistance. See Ben Bikman's video on this.
@@ac27934 I've heard about this, but the findings on these studies on humans(!) are mixed. Maybe @biolayne can give us an update? Personally I feel fine when I take 1500 mg in the morning.
I will say collagen has helped the pain management of my arthritic shoulder. That’s why I am sticking with it…. I am 61
Thats good to hear that its helped with the pain management of your arthritic shoulder:-( As I've got an arthritic hip & what was originally a labral tear in my shoulder, but didn't have any surgery (Instead I was having H.B.O.T) So it would be interesting to hear what collagen type you were using? T.I.A
While it doesn’t seem to do much of anything for connective tissue, there is some decent scientific evidence showing that it can improve skin health and the appearance or wrinkles/fine lines.
do you mind linking a few studies with regard skin appearance? Thanks!
Yes ive also seen these, would be great if layne could over these instead.
Especially when hes trying to answer if collagen supplements are overall effective. Which they seem to be in some areas.
@@cyclamen831Layne says in this video that those results were shown in this study. BUT he went on to say that mechanistically it doesn’t make sense why so he’s reluctant to recommend it. Just watch the video lol
@ also, a reason for this is the same reason he doenst go over more benefits of cold plunges. It’s not his speciality. Layne is not the type to cover something that he isn’t an expert in cause he could be wrong. If you want skin advice, find a good dermatologist to follow. Layne is a protein/nutrition expert. Which is why he mainly covers protein synthesis in this.
If you care about your skin appearance and or skin health, use a moisturizer with SPF first. Pretty much everything else is secondary to that.
Also look into topical retinoids, maybe. There is more substantial evidence that it improves skin appearance (including collagen in skin, if I recall correctly)
this is IN MUSCLE. Muscle is few percent collagen obviously. And no one takes it to increase muscle collagen. It seems logical that we couldnt even measure slight changes in this little amount of collagen in muscle. And in such little amount there is also not a high demand for collagen... so why would it even do something.
Personal observation that I realize could be subjective- My hair growth is next level since I started taking collagen, also seems more shiny and luscious 😊
I feel like my very thin hair became marginelly more thick. And my nails a little less brittle.
In my late 40's I started taking collagen for knee and joint pain specifically. I do a lot of mountain biking and trail running. I'm not sure if it's placebo, but it really seems to help my knees. It would be interesting to study if there is any kind of difference in young vs old. The referenced study is 25 year olds. Seems like when you are young, you have the world by the balls and don't need to supplement anything. 🤣 I never felt the need to supplement when I was 25. I'm 51 and blood work has revealed the need to supplement several things like DHEA, B12, VitD, Testosterone, Thyroid, Folic Acid.
It also helped my knees when I started taking it at 27, and I didn't even have bad knees. Just sometimes they hurt from squatting or whatever. I don't think it's a placebo, I just think there are no long-term studies. Collagen synthesis takes a lot of time. They should do this over 2 years and then check.
My wife (60 year old) swear that in just two weeks collagen supplementation cleared her knee pain, that lasted more than a year.
I was using collagen after surgery, and she tried it when I told her it might help her for wrinkles (it didn't seem to work for that, but I won't tell her this part).
Ive cycled on and off collagen and have noticed a difference in how my knees feel when im on it and off it. Im 36, healthy, exercise frequently with a mix of resistance, endurance, and mobility training. Been active my entire life and in tune with my body. I'm not sold on the idea it's placebo, could be but regardless I have felt a noticable difference.
Thanks for including links to the studies! The second study showed higher average connective protein synthesis rates for whey and collagen vs. placebo, but it didn't rise to the level of statistical significance. There is also a section at the end with links to similar articles, including one titled "Ingestion of a Whey Plus Collagen Protein Blend Increases Myofibrillar and Muscle Connective Protein Synthesis Rates" -- so maybe taking both is the answer?
I put both in my coffee, and combined with light lifting, my bad knee is getting better -- slowly but steadily.
Good to know !
Hey Dr. Layne,
I personally strength train for gymnastics, focusing on moves like the iron cross, Maltese, and planche. These exercises place a huge amount of pressure on the connective tissue, and I used to experience significant pain in my biceps tendons before I started taking collagen. Literally three hours after my first dose of collagen, my pain decreased significantly.
Ever since, I’ve been taking collagen, and whenever I stop, the pain slowly comes back. What do you think?
Almost certainly placebo effect, three hours after consuming collagen isn't enough time for it to even be digested, let alone be taken up by connective tissue.
It is significantly chondroprotective, so with continued ingestion you are protecting your joints and essentially improving their function (by decreasing damage from use and encouraging healing and recovery) which has the downstream effect of making you less sore, just like your knees /and legs/ would be less sore after a long walk. /It is not placebo/, it has both direct and indirect effects. Keep on doing what you are doing, it is not in your head at all. What it is not going to do is be great for building muscle /directly/, but protecting and improving joint function can certainly help you exercise harder and recover more quickly.
A 15g scoop a day is a miniscule amount. When I've supplemented with collagen and noticed benefits in injury recovery, I was taking several times that amount a couple of times a day.
I think ultimately we need more glycine proline and hydroxyproline and typical protein sources don't have a ton of them
I'm just saying that since taking Collagen I stopped having knee pain (from squatting), and my skin health overall increased to a very high degree, to a point where everyone asks me what I'm doing... And I took Protein powder over that time, and it didn't have the same effect (despite having all the amino acids required to produce Collagen). So, for me it seems like there is something that we might have not discovered yet or looked at properly? In the end, it's not expensive, and it is natural (like you'd eat fish skin), so whatever. So, in the end, the worst thing it does is being a waste of money.
Curious to know the timeline of your supplementation.
It doesn’t fit Layne’s agenda that collagen may strengthen connective tissue, so he isn’t looking or even thinking about the limitations and flaws in this study
Collagen contains a unique amino acid called hydroxyproline, which is why collagen supplementation may be able to increase collagen synthesis (in theory). I'm not saying it does, but there is a plausible mechanistic basis for how it might
These collagen studies could be another example of a product that has shown to not hurt, but also not be much help. It would be interesting to see what future studies show as far as any possible benefits that are still not known.
It does hurt the wallet, to be fair. Gelatin is a lot cheaper per gram and has not been shown to differ in effect in non-industry funded/sponsored human trails. It might even be that even cheaper proteins have just as much effect on connective tissue and skin as (overpriced) collagen supplements.
Appreciate the continuation on this topic. For the algorithm!!!!!!
Hi there! Currently studying for my license exam to become a dietitian! And I really enjoy watching your videos as review and to re-enforce my learning 🤓
Collagen supplementation is for hair, skin and nails. It's why i take it and anecdotally it works for me. I just don't count it towards my daily protein target for MPS.
Here, for the Algorythm, and to say THANK YOU as some of your knowledge sharing here (along two other youtube science based channels) has helped me taking good decisions during the last year to repair my body, losing weight and training hard with more inspiration in my now 50 years young body. Blessings in all your doings, Layne!
it's not the information we wanted, but it's the information we needed...
As others noted, it would be interesting to see more studies in different populations, e.g. older subjects and especially during recovery from injury. I'm generally quite skeptical about collagen supplements, especially in the context of a sufficiently high overall protein intake. That said, after my recent quad tendon autograft ACL reconstruction, I did take 10-15g of collagen and 3-5g of glycine per day for the first few months. I figured it was a reasonably cheap and low risk insurance policy (akin to a multivitamin) that might be useful in my specific situation. For that matter, a placebo effect that made recovery feel better and faster was also a useful outcome.
I know it’s easy to clip the mic to your neck, but obviously that gets rustled and messes with the sound. What I have been doing recently Is just grabbing a heart rate monitor strap putting that on and then hooking the mic to that under my shirt, give that a shot, it makes the sound a lot less distorted. Love your stuff
Is there anything that has been shown to increase conective tissue synthesis?
Resistance training :)
Growth hormone
BPC-157 has shown to increase collagen
@britsticher8889 Silica supplementation, vitamin d, vitamin C are some of the cofactors that have been shown to increase collagen production. Also, polyphenols found in green tea prevent collagen breakdown
Probably won't change anything - but as noted by others in these comments, studying connective tissue synthesis in young men between the ages of 22 and 28 seems intuitively pointless. Do young men even suffer connective tissue degeneration or anything that might stimulate a need for connective tissue synthesis for anything other than traumatic injury recovery? Not suggesting the results would be any different if tested on older adults, but simple logic seems to dictate older adults are the audience that most likely has actual age-related connective-tissue degradation and thus potential greatest benefit from collagen supplementation. Results might not be any different, but the point is - we don't know. As designed, this study seems almost pointless.
Finally! A guy that says the truth about this, thank you so much my friend!
I take it to prevent joint injury, I understand the studies are building up against that working, but aside from cost, I don't see any harm in it. I also am interested if these studies focused on older people.
Great stuff. Reliable references and clear explanations. I'm stopping taking gelatin (= degraded collagen) supplement. It was a pain in the ass to dissolve and tasted shit anyway.
I bought some of this because gut health quacks said it *might* help with IBS/bowel conditions.
I never noticed it working, but it's a field of health where you'll try just about anything if it means you'll get an ounce of relief. Many, many quacks in that space though.
they give olympia level athlete "Gelatin" in big amounts (in norway)when they are injured, even if there may not be to many studies to prove it..
I have often wondered about this. Given that large, undigested proteins moving across the lumen would be incredibly problematic, obviously deamination has to happen. Collagen cannot make it straight into the bloodstream. Do you think it is reasonable to suggest that the sheer concentration of glycine inherent in collagen protein could drive increased collagen production? Thanks for a great video.
Thanks for simplify that kind of info for us!!
Faulty study for multiple reasons not to mention glycine is a under consumed amino acid so collagen is definitely a good thing to take regardless
I had actually never heard of anyone younger taking this for connective tissue. My understanding was, it’s used by the older generations for skin.
The 2023 study you cite involved consuming the collagen AFTER the resistance exercise. Would be interesting to see a human study expanding on Keith Barr's work in which the collagen/gelatin is consumed BEFORE the exercise, allowing for the aminos/di and tri peptide concentrations to peak in the blood before stimulating the connective tissue.
Are there any high-quality studies looking into collagen's effect on the health of fibrous connective tissue?
I wonder about collagen protein derived from bone broth? I've been making my own and swear it has helped me recover and repair. I have 2-4 cups a day consistently. My family wants to choke me out for making it and smelling up the house. It better be good damnit.
Great Video! Thank you 🔥👏💪🫶
Many NIH studies show benefits including brain benefits.
One week?? IThe intructions on my collagen peptide supplement (Jamieson) says that 5 months are required. I have no idea if there is research to back that up. But I do know that connective tissue regeneration is a much slower process than muscle. One week does not make any sense whatsoever.
Without even watching the video, I can already tell Lame is going to say no. My scientific rationale? He loves to piss in everybody's corn flakes.
'He loves to piss in everybody's corn flakes.' There's currently no scientific evidence that proves ...
Does collagen supplementation help with tenton strengthening/integrity ????
Connective tissues like tendons and ligaments don’t have blood supplies so they would be very to respond. I wonder if there is an effect out 6 months to a year. But in any case, that may be slow enough that supplementation doesn’t matter because you don’t need a lot of substrates to keep up with the rate of replacement or growth. Based on this though, it makes sense, perhaps a good quality protein like whey is all you need.
I took collagen for about four months to see if it would help heal a bad rash on my ankles and lower calves caused by an allergic reaction to a steroid cream. I took bovine collagen for awhile, then i took marine collagen for awhile, and neither of them helped with the rash, but what happened instead was that the skin on tops of both of my feet started getting really thick, so thick that it felt uncomfortable when I walked. Plus it looked funky which worried me. So I quit taking the collagen but it took nearly six months for the skin on tops of my feet to return to normal.
OK, it sounds convincing, but the question still remains: how to improve my connective tissues, ie. induce synthesis?
From my understanding I think most of it is done during puberty or earlier.
Exercising I would assume
Resistance training and enough rest 😂
I wasted 6 minutes and heard nothing
Oh you do ? You sell a whey protein. I was looking to buy some. I'll buy yours because you have my trust
You don't deliver where I live. Nooooo !
What about "tendon training" and using collagen?
What about a peptide like GHK-cu injectable and topical?
I'm not sure how they measure some these things for collagen or how the tests were done, but if one group was given whey then they could compare it to regular protein supplements. Maybe they have the same effect or more on skin etc. 🤷🏼♂️
I think it makes sense that it doesn't actually make a difference. (I may be wrong). My thought process is: If you are already consuming all the aminoacids in your diet through meats, whey protein, bcaas, etc, why would it make a difference to consume collagen?
I believe it is because of my collage supplementation, that I dont have strechmarks from muscle growth
I always advice that to everyone. I have some from the time I didn't take collagen but when I really exploded in terms of muscle mass and took Collagen nothing happened.
What about the data by Keith Barr using gelatine?
As someone with Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, I really wish there an ability to foster great collagen production. People with EDS are believed to have faulty production of collagen. ie we make it but it’s flawed, resulting in weak collagen. Producing more won’t directly help, but producing less as we age might why symptoms get worse in our 40s and beyond (at least they have for me)
After how bad your vegetable oil video was, I actually unsubscribed. So I was surprised to see this video pop up. Since I take collagen every day I figured I'd give it a listen. I'm still going to be taking collagen. At the least just for the glycine.
Great video as always! Could you try to put your mic on center of your neck so it wouldn't maybe interact with your movement as much.
I just stepped on the band wagon. Wish I'd watched this video sooner.
I'm desperate to heal my chronic injuries. I'm getting new chronic injuries all the time and I too am super skeptical on the efficacy of collagen peptides for connective tissue and cartilage repair.
I just started taking type 2 bovine collagen. I guess I'll check back in 2 months for an update. 🤷🏻♂️
Glycine is more than just a building block for collagen; it plays a crucial role in metabolism too. It helps in synthesizing creatine, which boosts energy production in muscles, and can improve insulin sensitivity, aiding blood sugar control. Plus, it has antioxidant properties that reduce oxidative stress. Overall, glycine works with other amino acids to support muscle recovery and metabolic health, making it a valuable addition to our diet!
Thus eating the whole animal as our ancestors did may aid nutritional deficiencies and/or imbalances in the long run.
It's always fun when he goes science on us
Drinking bone broth might help. It has collegen and geletin, proteins fats and traceminerals
What about vitamin C supplementation to help collagen production?
I decided try some after reinjuring my rotator cuff. Most noticeable thing I saw was my body hair getting thicker 😭😭
if collagen cannot be absorbed (i am not questioning that), how is creatine absorbed?
Do they have studys of people eating hyperprocessed collagen vs people chewing gristle like a 1000 chews to get it down. Love chewing on gristle
I have no explanation for why but my nails only grow when I take my collagen daily. When I forget it for a few days, a couple weeks later all my nails break. Maybe it’s the glycine? 🤷♀️
Hydroxyproline is a unique amino acid found only in collagen, which is needed for collagen synthesis. If collagen supplementation does help, that's probably why- it provides tons of a limiting amino acid that you don't get from other protein sources. That's why the "collagen doesn't work better than any other protein" argument for connective tissue doesn't make sense, because even though the whole collagen protein is torn apart in digestion, you still get intact hydroxyproline
It is more condensed than whey concentrate,we use both cause we are cheap and need the protean ( food avoidance syndrome) source anyway.
What about skin and hair?
This study used young males. Young males produce enough collagen themselves and do not need supplements. They performed resistance training which does almost nothing to stimulate connective tissue growth. Connective tissue thickens from very heavy isometric and eccentric exercises, and it becomes adequately elastic when stressed by performing explosive exercises like leaping to build Achilles elasticity. So the study tests the effect of collagen supplements on people who should have no reason to benefit from it whatsoever. Test its effects on older people who are performing tendon specific training. That way, we’d know if collagen supplements help build connective tissue. This isn’t complicated.
Layne, hasn’t it been shown very recently that some collagen peptides are not broken by digestion and do enter the blood. Please excuse my non-scientific way if expressing myself. See the very recent video by Verhoeven.
Are there any supplements that can improve connective tissue because I'm only 33 but my knees are killing me
Don't know about connective tissue synthesis, but it definitely helps me sleep. Doesn't take much, just a small spoonful. Probably around 5 grams.
What would you do for connective tissue repair? Any tips?
The study was for connective tissue but not about hair/skin/nails. So the results of this study doesn’t cover that, right?
If eating amino acids always break down to their base components for general use by the body then why does creatine work?
Thanks for the information
Any benefit if you have connective tissue tear or damage?
It was shown the some very small peptides are not digested and the body can uptake as is
Shhhh. I'm trying to trick myself into a placebo effect
Any hemp protein studies worth talking about?
Does it do anything for joints(knees)?
I am so glad that commenters are smart! Test this for older people. Test me! I am 43.
You're young
@MBT372 haha thanks but I am starting to need the claimed benefits of collagen peptides! I have been taking Vital for about 8 months now and my skin got a lot more tighter but it's hard to isolate and conclude it was due to this supplement. The reason is I also added a few different skin care routines too and I started eating healthy.
Collagen gave me pain in my joints especially the knee. It took me 6 months to get better.
does it help with dry skin?
And that’s why you have combine it with Glycin
i still prefert to use growth hormone for connective tissue 😉😉
Thanks Layne
soooo wtf am i supposed to do for my tendons...
The position of the mic doesn't help with the audio quality. Keep it in the middle.
I was taught that you need extra glycine and vit C to ensure that the collagen is utilised.
Thank you for sharing
Just in time for my ligament tear 🔥
Irrelevant video talking about a 1 week study, what is this BS? Since I've been taking collagen daily I have no more issues with my joints so these type of studies mean 0. And there are a lot of people getting the same benefits + skin, hair, nails with collagen.
im a 39 year old male, i dont supplement collagen for training benefits...
What about bone broth?
@biolayne1 I feel like there were some studies that showed positive effects when using collagen supplements and vitamin c for connective tissue. I'm currently using collagen, mostly because i'm desperate in trying to heal some tendon issues, but sounds like it might be a waste of money :/
I actually noticed nicer skin after using collagen.
I had read similar. Only thing that really helped my acute tendon issues and injuries was BPC-157, which is a bit outside the normal supplementation line that most people draw
@@0dayExploitcurious to know how did you take the bpc157?
@@sidious-dy9rh I had oral BPC, which is not really the usual kind and also does not have strong scientific consensus on its effectiveness. I’ll say, though, I had a literally overnight change when I took it.
Because it is not a supplement. You are using a doping agent as non-approved medicine for something that would probably heal with time and rest.
i do 2 scoops of vital proteins in my morning coffee. 2 cups 2 scoops. Seems like I have healthier skin, nails, hair. Might be the placebo effect. Costco usually has some really good Collagen powder on sale.
There is studies on skin. It's not placebo.
I get terrible acne on the temples from beef collagen