I also discovered that better suspension is definitely important for rider fatigue. Can make a big difference feeling wiped out versus a good day of riding.
I own a set of cone valves and traxx shock, and the thing about the cone valves, in order for you to get optimal performance it has to be Taylored to you… taking a generic setting or a setting that’s not for you it will feel better, but it won’t be perfect
From what I understand cone valve forks are more complicated to set up properly, so you sound spot on. Probably not for someone other than an avid rider who knows his bike.
Congrats Kyle on your decision to finally upgrade. Often when I see your videos and then head out for a ride on my KTM with custom suspension, I'm thinking, so glad I'm not riding a stock bike like Kyle is right now. But, I will say that the new 23's from KTM have finally got ok suspension.
Agreed. It’s particularly the sharp hits and big hits… the cone fork soaks them up like butter. Could run over a brick flat open and barely feel it. Itching to see what my 23 300SX like when it comes though… 🤞🙏😁
Disagree. I bought the $2,500 KYB forms for my KTM and they were outstanding...but I rode my buddies '23 with cone valve and there is a noticeable differrence of plushness and how well it sticks to the ground. i've owned and ridden both.
I've had several friends run the cone valves & ditch them for the cheaper dal soggio sphere kit from Stillwell. I went straight to the spheres & they're freaking awesome. Recently went to Colorado & they're unbelievable. To be clear, not knocking the cones, but have confirmed what 6 others have recommended
You know Kyle, you made a excellent point at the end of the video. Your not buying them for one bike, but can be used on the next few. ,( As long as they don't change much) that got me very interested in up grading too.
The intensity and type of riding is directly related to the noticeable differences. Its been my experience that the stock forks are for massive race worthy hits...like big air and hard landings. The revalved forks that I ride would probably not do so well in motocross situation, but on single track and gnarly technical terrain they're a dream and my wrists and shoulders are grateful.
I had a Traxx rear shock on one of my past bikes, and it really was amazing. And I don't know anything. Now I have Ohlins TTX on my bike, and I have to say - I am a believer in great suspension. It really makes a difference.
Please compare the cone valve to a WP fork with springs. We basically need a spring to spring comparison to cover all of the options. The XCWs use springs in the forks.
At least on my '20 husky FE350, the stock XPLOR was absolutely terrible. Would pack up and become harsh on repeated bumps or small hits, and blew through travel on drops or jumps. Replaced with a mx tech lucky cartridges and the improvement was massive.
I have found that even a basic fork service with revalve makes a big difference. I now consider a revalve mandatory on any bike I buy regardless of brand.
I appreciate and agree with Kyle’s comments that even small improvements add up over a long ride or race. I had my AER forks revalved by a local shop and the improvement over sharp impacts really helped save energy and let me grip the bars looser. Big difference over a 100 mi race. I’d love to try the cone valves, they sound appreciably better!
How can you compare these forks when you are not using the correct "spring rate" on your WP AER48s? The issue isn't t the air pressure with the AER48s. The issue is the midvalve and valving.
Kyle thanks for posting this and taking the time to start these discussions! Ive tried pretty much every setup and brand out there: setup (valving/ spring rate) are far more important than any brand of fork. So many videos claiming "cone valves" are this magical unicorn that will forgive all sins is like saying "I'm putting KYB's on my bike and they will transform my riding." The marketing and myth behind "cone valves" rivals Tiffany's diamonds. When people spend 5k on suspension they are much more likely to sing praises rather than acknowledge they aren't perfect - this doesn't help those researching choices. Personally I think the 6500's or KYB's are better than the CV's. Please spend some time with a competent tuner or two and have a detailed conversation on what exactly you want and how skilled you are. You won't do yourself any favors upgrading your skills for the tuner. "I want to roar over rock gardens and land from three story buildings" isn't realistic, suspension is a compromise. One final note: the air pressure specs on the AER's are there for a reason. Dropping air pressure to soften compliance places the fork in a different position and can result in an unbalanced bike and harsher feel (the square edge reference in the video perhaps) once the speeds pick up. It's like changing two or three spring rates on a spring fork. If you get too far out of range with clicker experimentation return to baseline settings and start over changing one variable at a time. I personally like a slower rebound on the AER's but you may or may not. Don't be afraid to experiment with big adjustments until you can feel it. If you like the lower pressure more power to ya but it isn't without consequences. I hope this helps; I borrowed a lot of these points from lots of mistakes and many experienced people who helped me over the years. Happy riding/ racing!
I thought the air pressure with wp forks was to set the height of the forks and nothing to do with dampening that’s all done with the clickers. If I remember right it was a wp factory suspension guy saying that on a podcast somewhere
2.5 wt oil at 175 ml an added no float midspeed valve and light base valving on the aer and low pressure at 105 to 108 . #55 drill hole on the rebound side for free bleed. Way better then cones for no money
I rode a friends cone valves for like 5 minutes in some ultra rocky singletrack. The difference was immediately noticeable - and I ride a YZ with KYBs which are set up just about perfectly for me.
KYB is the gold standard for dirt bike forks IMO. If they come set-up too stiff then a good trail valving makes them near perfect. The WP forks are great too after the bike has a ton of hours to loosen them up good. Air forks suck. Wait until you go riding with someone that has them and they lose a seal.
@@carlatamanczyk3891 The fork seals don't have anything to do with keeping the air in the forks. The old KYB PSF forks ARE like that but those are garbage & are an old school open chamber fork. Showa & WP are a closed chamber design & the air is in its own chamber. When you know how to set them up, they are great. No different than a spring fork. The air is a replacement for the spring. The pressure is only meant to be a spring rate. Most people use the air in the wrong way. Actually, a LOT of people use springs incorrectly as well.
I bought a KTM and spent like $1300 getting a KYB SSS fork conversion. I think my next bike will just be a YZ 250 (2 stroke) and just already have the suspension I want. I'll probably need a stiffer spring being 210 pounds but yeah the KYB SSS, as Carl said, are the gold standard. I mean the Ohlins are so expensive but I hear nothing but good things about them. You would have to, as Kyle says, have them on your next 3 bikes. Not a bad idea really.
It's the valving setup in these particular cone valve forks that makes the difference, not just because they are "cone valve" forks. compared to stock aer xc forks, almost any fork can be made to feel alot better than aer with custom valving. The aer forks can be revalved to feel much better in the rocks, and with just a gold valve kit they feel really good, and add in a spring conversion and they are even better, then they are pretty good and much cheaper than cone valves, for anyone looking for a good cheaper improvement.
Great review! I get it... but. I'm an old guy (56) that have been riding for a looong time and have been through many good and bad fork setups. Currently have a '20 TX300I with the factory XACT air forks. I hated them at first until I dropped the air pressure down to 120. No more issues...keep in mind I am 56yo and have slowed down some...lol...my 2cents.😁
Good suspension is plush for the small stuff but can hold up on the big hits. That is quite a slow trail and it is rough but not really compared to what I ride in New Zealand. I run RG3 on my CRF450 and I can't fault them, my friends say my bike is a cheater bike. Good suspension makes it safer to go faster.
Lower stiction is what you're paying through the nose for. Translates into better ride and better traction via quicker initial response to bumps and holes.
I remember going from a dual sport bike to a sachs equipped 2008 husqvarna 450 enduro.The difference was night and day.i was stunned how i could crash through holes and rocks.For my 10 cents i prefer to set them a bit softer ,less tiring and easier to compress the suspension
Thanks for the video and your channel - I like it a lot! Your riding test result and conclusion is fully correct and (for me) easy to explain by theory and practical knowledge I have built up over many years (engineer and enduro rider doing suspension, including using the well known restackor calculation tool). Cone valve means (only!) the so called mid valve design for compression direction. The other parts are more or less conventional stuff. Mid valve usually is what has a bottleneck effect to harsh impacts aka high damping speeds. Standard midvalves are a bit harder to reduce said bottleneck than cone valve. But it can be done. Thus - 3500$ is a bit much for this plus but also the parts come with high quality and a obviously improved rebound setup (which also is possible with stock components). Back to back with AER forks the well known increased friction of AER system also contributes - making the AER system for Enduro less comfortable. Comparing Cone-valve to an well set up Kayaba fork would have been more fair in comparing - maybe. just my opinion ;-)
I had an ohlins setup on 2 japanese and 1 KTM and they were pretty friggen sweet.....better than a revalve on stock stuff......this was for MX and GPs It was about 2k for inserts and shock, They were pretty amazing piece of suspension
The Öhlins TTX shock is the only shock that works well on the XCW KTMs with the PDS suspension. It baffles me why WP can’t figure it out. Until KTM puts KYB suspension on their bikes I won’t buy another one.
Kyle I`m a big fan . I like that you review different bikes and even mods to those bikes. You did exactly the right thing by comparing stock verses Cone valve . I think you may mis the Cone Valve forks when you review other bikes . Maybe you could have a separate drawing for a suspension package like that . I`d enter ......
I don't have the cone valve on my 21 te300i but I put the pro 6500 cartridge in which basically the same setup without the cone value, and absolutely love the forks now. The stock with proper spring and valving still was harsh
Gona do the same to my 23 fc450 with race tech gold valves set up mx Gona respring the rear and gold valve too At 225lb the stock suspension does not work well.
@@jessewilson8283 Huge improvement, really happy with the initial test. I installed them for this weekend's ride and put a couple hours on them on some rocky power line trails and was really impressed. The float is set in comfort, comp at 18 and reb at 20. I put 325ml vs the 380 the sheet calls for and they were impressively plush without being too soft. At race pace in rougher terrain with high speed braking bumps I may need to change things up a bit but for the rocks and square edge step ups from this weekend they worked very well. Much less fatigue and far more confidence inspiring.
KREFT - My 2K Kreft build with valve control added was awesome for trail and track. the settings and paperwork I got made me a better tuner. for 1/2 the price of these one could get a pro build from KREFT.
I think a good comparison would be the 6500 cartridge kit from wp to the cone valves. That way it’s spring to spring rather than air to spring. Iv heard great things about the 6500 kit.
The forks are only as good as the shock and vice versa. You cant change a fork and expect it to work perfectly without also having a shock setup to match it.
Suspension is absolutely critical! Number one modification! But don’t drink the coolaid.. don’t buy a set of CV .. save the money, get a set of WP 6500’s , luckys, or ravens, KYB etc.. What you are feeling and talking about is the difference in a well set up spring fork vs a air fork and not switching the shock will drastically change how the fork works. So still running the super Trax with the aer.
I switched from Yamaha to KTM and was not impressed with the aer fork at. I ended trying two different spring conversions and the closest thing to kyb is the Mx-tech Lucky kit. I had it set up by N2Dirt. Best set up for all around riding and on par with KYB SSS.
While I dont have CV's I have A kit Mx Tech forks and rebuilt shock. It made a ginormous difference. I hope some day I can afford to purchase their national shock because I heard it is amazing!
As much as I would like a cone valve set up I just can't bring myself to spend that kind of money. I have the stock xplor spring suspension on my 2020 xcw. I weigh about 185 and have found that by running Tubliss (probably not for racing) and a fatter front tire such as the 90/90 Goldentyre, I get way less deflection and a pretty dam nice plush ride. I run about 6-7 psi out front. I am also lucky enough to have the preload settings on top of my fork. If I hit the desert and its whooped I can preload it by +3 and I never bottom. Just thought I'd share what's worked for me. Thanks for all that you do Kyle!!!
I’ve had Kevin at MotoXperts do 2 sets of WP for me. One set is the 6500 cartridge and the other was a revalve and gold valve the AER forks. I can’t really tell one way or another which is better now. The gold valve allows the fork to run like 50cc more oil which helps a ton. The 6500 kit is more cost effective than a full set of cone valves. Both are closed cartridge mid valve 48mm. One just runs a conical valve and small spring vs a shim stack. The biggest improvement to WP is the Trax shock. That things is worth it’s weight in gold. Way more rear wheel hookup and it handles chop light years better than the stock Xact shock.
The AER forks on my old KTM were horrific.. even after multiple revalve/air set ups. I couldn't get them to work for me. I don't notice just how bad they are until I rode a bike with better forks. The cone valves are far better.. they hold a line better and work way better the more aggressive you ride. But more importantly they work extremely well on your off days.. when your not riding at 100%. You've made a great choice Kyle 👍
I assume you are running Tubliss... I switched to the cone valves and trax shock with Nuetech soft mousse. Could not get it dialed in -- too harsh. Went back to tubliss with cone valves and trax shock and the set up is the best - of course Solid Performance stuck with me the whole way with different settings, springs etc. until the suspension was perfect. Try running mousse as an experiment for the channel and highlight your findings.
I took the multi-bike route when i decided to buy a Smart Carb 2. It moved from my 99' 300EXC to my '17 300 XCW. I've had it 4-5 years now. It's made it definitely worth it. I don't think i'm a good enough rider for Cone Valves. I may never be, actually.
Hey Kyle. So you are gonna swap the cone valves out with each new bike for 3-4 bikes? Are you going to rebuild the fork for each new bike? And what did you do to prep the cone valve for your specific needs? I have a 2022 300-xc and am thinking your idea might work for me. Thanks!
Without a doubt the cone valve forks will make you the best B/C level weekend warrior you can be. 😂 Plus your friends will think you’re rad…at least that’s what they say about mine. 😂 I’ve got a low hour 2022 set I’ll give you a good deal on. 😂 They were used on my David Pingree VitalMX Race shop build FC501.
aww the good old warm up wash ride. love those trails. I wonder what happened with that burned up section. just went there this last weekend and noticed it was all burned up.
I have a TM 250 Fi. I like it. Obviously Kyle has a great channel with lots of followers, but maybe I should do a review showing some on bike riding like he does.
Im confused. I thought the xcw comes with the non air forks with the springs? Are those cone valves spring or air? Why wouldn’t you compare air to air &/or spring to spring?
At the end you said you're going to buy a set of xplor pro's to use on multiple bikes. Are you worried about the standard going from 48mm forks to 50mm?
Showa A-kit is the most expensive by far, cause EVERYTHING is coated billet aluminum or titanium with kashima and titanium nitride. Just bought a set for my Honda CRF450RX I've been building for Sprint Enduro & GNCC. -KYB & MX Tech are next, and the least expensive are WP and Ohlins...probably Ohlins and WP feel the best for vet guys in all reality, but I wanted to keep everything Honda for my build...Showa & MX Tech have attention to detail for every little part on their suspension packages to deliver the very best product that has performance, durability, and longer service interval technology built into it.
I figured out at a young age that I can personally go faster and ride better spending money on suspension than engine in most cases. And yes, I did learn and continue to learn better technique. Then again, I'm old enough to remember "White Power" before WP.
I have a 15 300xc. Bought slavens Mx tech lucky kit send everything to Mx Tech for them to do that and the shock. Night and day… I was able to do a hair cheaper than $3500 and that’s with Kashima coating, triple adjuster, etc.
xcw has oil forks/ xc has air forks or am I wrong? Just wondering if these cone shocks would replace both (oil and/or air) front forks? I'm not a big fan of the xc's air forks.
The xcw(te) forks are valves far to soft for any sort of faster riding. I consider myself a C class rider but my te250i forks are terrible in the desert. I did stiffen them up but it only helped a little. I'm looking at the kyb and 6500 kit or some cones if the price is right. Something people don't consider in the cone vs cartridge is that you are buying another set of forks not just the inner components
Great like ever! P.s. could You explain in a near future the NomOusse sistem and manteinance and than compare It with the other sistema like tubliss , Traxy, mousse (various special ones) , tube (and tube in old cutted tube) and tubeless . Many thanks and go on!!!!
If you don’t Taylor the cones to your riding/level or are a beginner rider there is a small chance you will get injured on them because the cones are very digressive and need higher starting pressures to get them moving but once they move they become more linear in the stroke. In summary don’t putz around in them because those forks can deflect off things. I Personally like the cones with the cone removed and a normal midvalve out in for off-road pretty plush/firm fork.
If you think that's impressive you should throw some aftermarket suspension on there for MX Tech or Enzo, I have MXT forks and it's the best money I have ever put into a bike.
subliminally encouraging people to pay exorbitant amounts of money on high level suspension upgrades when there are suspension tuners all over the country that can make the stock internals work really well for most applications for less than half the price
Not a beta. I've heard shercos feel a little smaller than ktm. I think the best for tall is a Yamaha. The pds on ktms likes to make the bike taller vs a husky/gas gas bike. But with so many aftermarket products you could make any work for a tall person
@@dirkdiggler3009 Kyle makes zero sense... He refuses to race, but wants to drop thousands on A kit suspension... I terribly disagree with a lot of his ideas... you are spot on in regards to the 6500 cartridges though.
@@jasonlash544 Well its obviously his passion. So I give him credit for trying his best to explain to the average rider whether or not these products make a difference. Not many people will be able to afford or justify factory suspension on a 13k bike and he must be doing well financially to do what he does. Hats of to him really. I just think this video would have had more value if he had taken the time to compare bone stock suspension both ends with factory suspension both ends. He left the traxx shock in for both tests which would have effected the feeling of the stock fork. He also didn't mention if he had the traxx shock setup for him personally. Otherwise he is making good content for a specific type of rider. Mostly riders who are getting into the sport and only have limited experience.
Hold up, you're gonna recommend cone valves without even mentioning the service intervals? That alone rules out cone valves for the vast majority of riders.
I need more money in my life before I commit to the cone valves! I love the idea of buying them and using them for several bikes though. That is a great option.
You seem like a great guy. Your content is good. It's very specific and I don't watch as much as I used to. I am pretty sure your specificity is catering to a smaller and smaller, as well as high end market. Your channel is not for the 90% of us just looking for fun and value. I wish you luck though.
contact Morgan Spradling with highlandcycles in Montrose Co tbt suspension has some mods to the air fork that might be worth trying for way less money.
The problem with these riding test,, even if the rider is not attempting to sell the product, is the rider's mental prejudice that since their expensive, other riders swear by them, they are better than stock forks. I'm not suggesting the test have no value, but there is noting scientific about the test and its based on the riders opinion. Who would pay 1/3 the cost of a the bike better forks when you could invest it in a better bike?
Night and day difference. Have them on my 250, 300, 500 and 790. So far I've been able to buy a new bike every 2 years and just swap the WP Pro components but for 2023 250 only the folks transfer. In 2024 the shock will be different on all my bikes but maybe the 790.
people need to understand you need to service your forks shocks at 30hrs or so to keep perfomance. 50+ hrs is just wrecking your ride and equiptment. Dryer areas you can get away with longer hours.
This test while appreciated is kind of irrelevant. You should be doing a comparison between the stock setup and a factory setup tailored to you. It has to include the shock though. Simply slapping a fork on might feel better at the bars through the wrist. But for all important bike balance both ends need to be changed at the same time or else it is pointless. I would think the cone valve or a 6500 kit will only really shine once you have the shock setup to match it.
@@dirkdiggler3009 I've tried a trax shock on my bike versus the stock one and I didn't really notice a difference on single track. But I don't have cones to compare to stock. That being said my 99 yz400f forks are better then my 21 te250i.
@@KoltFin I got my rear shock revalved with the bladder conversion and noticed a huge difference. I think the stock suspension on KTM, Husq, GG bikes could be a lot better for the money. It really is frustrating.
@@dirkdiggler3009 100% agree, my local suspension shop quoted me like $1500 just to rework/revalve my stock stuff. Do you have a pds or a linkage bike? My buddy has a 18 xcw that he had alpine Xc install a bladder kit. He said it was a big improvement. Especially over roots.
Kyle, I disagree with absolutely nothing you have to say! I do whis you had shown or tried the forks in some slow technical rocky trails. I personally have the most issue with the AER's in a recovery situation where the fork has to step over baseball to softball size rocks to get started again. This i where the AER's will not comply enough (compared to spring forks). One more thing, remember the 23's are all new, so wait untill you start on you new gen. bike to spend that cash.😁😁
It's sort of ridiculous how long Cone Valve/Trax suspension has been around and they don't put them in all their bikes. How much more could it cost to manufacturer? The premium price of the 3 KTM brands and a 2006 Yamaha has better boingers. 💸💸💸
You’re not wrong. I’ve moved over to a TM after 10 years on KTM and lots of playing with suspension, 2CS,4CS,XPLOR,AER. I’ve ridden the Cone Valve and Traxx as well. I agree with someone else here who says the Traxx shock makes a bigger difference than the forks. With all of that said, the TM with KYBforks and TM in house shock are at least equal if not better after break in, with proper weight springs. Trying not to be a fanboy of whatever I’m currently riding. One guys perspective.
Why would they put them in when they can sell them for big bucks after? About 10 years ago KTM changed from a company that was run by motorcycle people to a company run by accountants. Enough people are addicted to their "Kool-aid" and cannot see that there are better options out there for less money. But hey, people buy Harleys too.
I'm sick of the junk forks ktm puts on their high priced bikes. The xplor fork is a bargain basement cheap fork that comes standard on the $13,500 500 exc-f. I agree that cone valve forks can't be that more expensive to manufacture and what ktm charges for a bike should come stock from the factory.
I also discovered that better suspension is definitely important for rider fatigue. Can make a big difference feeling wiped out versus a good day of riding.
Definitely true.
It's obvious, the less you have to fight the bike, the more energy you save.
its ONLY about this
I own a set of cone valves and traxx shock, and the thing about the cone valves, in order for you to get optimal performance it has to be Taylored to you… taking a generic setting or a setting that’s not for you it will feel better, but it won’t be perfect
From what I understand cone valve forks are more complicated to set up properly, so you sound spot on. Probably not for someone other than an avid rider who knows his bike.
Congrats Kyle on your decision to finally upgrade. Often when I see your videos and then head out for a ride on my KTM with custom suspension, I'm thinking, so glad I'm not riding a stock bike like Kyle is right now. But, I will say that the new 23's from KTM have finally got ok suspension.
Agreed. It’s particularly the sharp hits and big hits… the cone fork soaks them up like butter. Could run over a brick flat open and barely feel it.
Itching to see what my 23 300SX like when it comes though… 🤞🙏😁
KYB forks with trail valving should be on every dirt bike used on nasty trails. Just my own experience and opinion.
Agree. I've had several $10k KTMs and my 15 year old Yamaha with KYB is better than them all.
Kyb is just better everywhere than WP.
If it doesn’t have KYB suspension I am not buying the bike!
Disagree. I bought the $2,500 KYB forms for my KTM and they were outstanding...but I rode my buddies '23 with cone valve and there is a noticeable differrence of plushness and how well it sticks to the ground. i've owned and ridden both.
@@MXJEFF94 To each his own.
I've had several friends run the cone valves & ditch them for the cheaper dal soggio sphere kit from Stillwell. I went straight to the spheres & they're freaking awesome. Recently went to Colorado & they're unbelievable. To be clear, not knocking the cones, but have confirmed what 6 others have recommended
You know Kyle, you made a excellent point at the end of the video. Your not buying them for one bike, but can be used on the next few. ,( As long as they don't change much) that got me very interested in up grading too.
The intensity and type of riding is directly related to the noticeable differences. Its been my experience that the stock forks are for massive race worthy hits...like big air and hard landings. The revalved forks that I ride would probably not do so well in motocross situation, but on single track and gnarly technical terrain they're a dream and my wrists and shoulders are grateful.
Your assessment is right on.
I had a Traxx rear shock on one of my past bikes, and it really was amazing. And I don't know anything. Now I have Ohlins TTX on my bike, and I have to say - I am a believer in great suspension. It really makes a difference.
How much does the Ohlins suspension set you back?
@@tommywallbangerwas a while back, so maybe around 1.100 for the rear and maybe around the same for the TTX fork cartridges that go in the stock tubes
Agree, Ohlins TTX internals on KX450 Showa forks transformed my bike!
I'm looking for rear shock and I have to choose between Trax and Ohlins. I do technical trails and rocky rivers a lot.
Please compare the cone valve to a WP fork with springs. We basically need a spring to spring comparison to cover all of the options. The XCWs use springs in the forks.
At least on my '20 husky FE350, the stock XPLOR was absolutely terrible. Would pack up and become harsh on repeated bumps or small hits, and blew through travel on drops or jumps. Replaced with a mx tech lucky cartridges and the improvement was massive.
Like Peter said the stock xplor forks are quite bad. On my 21 te250i they don't handle chop or speed very well. Just medium slow hits.
I have found that even a basic fork service with revalve makes a big difference. I now consider a revalve mandatory on any bike I buy regardless of brand.
I appreciate and agree with Kyle’s comments that even small improvements add up over a long ride or race. I had my AER forks revalved by a local shop and the improvement over sharp impacts really helped save energy and let me grip the bars looser. Big difference over a 100 mi race. I’d love to try the cone valves, they sound appreciably better!
How can you compare these forks when you are not using the correct "spring rate" on your WP AER48s? The issue isn't t the air pressure with the AER48s. The issue is the midvalve and valving.
Kyle thanks for posting this and taking the time to start these discussions! Ive tried pretty much every setup and brand out there: setup (valving/ spring rate) are far more important than any brand of fork. So many videos claiming "cone valves" are this magical unicorn that will forgive all sins is like saying "I'm putting KYB's on my bike and they will transform my riding." The marketing and myth behind "cone valves" rivals Tiffany's diamonds. When people spend 5k on suspension they are much more likely to sing praises rather than acknowledge they aren't perfect - this doesn't help those researching choices. Personally I think the 6500's or KYB's are better than the CV's. Please spend some time with a competent tuner or two and have a detailed conversation on what exactly you want and how skilled you are. You won't do yourself any favors upgrading your skills for the tuner. "I want to roar over rock gardens and land from three story buildings" isn't realistic, suspension is a compromise. One final note: the air pressure specs on the AER's are there for a reason. Dropping air pressure to soften compliance places the fork in a different position and can result in an unbalanced bike and harsher feel (the square edge reference in the video perhaps) once the speeds pick up. It's like changing two or three spring rates on a spring fork. If you get too far out of range with clicker experimentation return to baseline settings and start over changing one variable at a time. I personally like a slower rebound on the AER's but you may or may not. Don't be afraid to experiment with big adjustments until you can feel it. If you like the lower pressure more power to ya but it isn't without consequences. I hope this helps; I borrowed a lot of these points from lots of mistakes and many experienced people who helped me over the years. Happy riding/ racing!
I thought the air pressure with wp forks was to set the height of the forks and nothing to do with dampening that’s all done with the clickers. If I remember right it was a wp factory suspension guy saying that on a podcast somewhere
My Kreft full kit, front and rear, is amazing. Couldn't be happier.
2.5 wt oil at 175 ml an added no float midspeed valve and light base valving on the aer and low pressure at 105 to 108 .
#55 drill hole on the rebound side for free bleed.
Way better then cones for no money
I rode a friends cone valves for like 5 minutes in some ultra rocky singletrack. The difference was immediately noticeable - and I ride a YZ with KYBs which are set up just about perfectly for me.
KYB is the gold standard for dirt bike forks IMO. If they come set-up too stiff then a good trail valving makes them near perfect.
The WP forks are great too after the bike has a ton of hours to loosen them up good.
Air forks suck. Wait until you go riding with someone that has them and they lose a seal.
@@carlatamanczyk3891
The fork seals don't have anything to do with keeping the air in the forks. The old KYB PSF forks ARE like that but those are garbage & are an old school open chamber fork. Showa & WP are a closed chamber design & the air is in its own chamber. When you know how to set them up, they are great. No different than a spring fork. The air is a replacement for the spring. The pressure is only meant to be a spring rate. Most people use the air in the wrong way. Actually, a LOT of people use springs incorrectly as well.
I bought a KTM and spent like $1300 getting a KYB SSS fork conversion. I think my next bike will just be a YZ 250 (2 stroke) and just already have the suspension I want. I'll probably need a stiffer spring being 210 pounds but yeah the KYB SSS, as Carl said, are the gold standard. I mean the Ohlins are so expensive but I hear nothing but good things about them. You would have to, as Kyle says, have them on your next 3 bikes. Not a bad idea really.
@@tommywallbanger I love my YZ but I ordered a TM and it should be somewhere in the Atlantic right now. Has KYB forks and a TM Shock
It's the valving setup in these particular cone valve forks that makes the difference, not just because they are "cone valve" forks. compared to stock aer xc forks, almost any fork can be made to feel alot better than aer with custom valving. The aer forks can be revalved to feel much better in the rocks, and with just a gold valve kit they feel really good, and add in a spring conversion and they are even better, then they are pretty good and much cheaper than cone valves, for anyone looking for a good cheaper improvement.
what gold valve kit do you like for the later model 21/22 AER forks?
Have you tried a revalve with the cone mid valve conversion?
@@KoltFin no
@@mschumaker1 343407c
@@tom97zr2 say what?
It would be great if you can take those forks apart to show us what makes them work so well. I can't find any pictures online.
Great review!
I get it... but.
I'm an old guy (56) that have been riding for a looong time and have been through many good and bad fork setups. Currently have a '20 TX300I with the factory XACT air forks. I hated them at first until I dropped the air pressure down to 120. No more issues...keep in mind I am 56yo and have slowed down some...lol...my 2cents.😁
Good suspension is plush for the small stuff but can hold up on the big hits. That is quite a slow trail and it is rough but not really compared to what I ride in New Zealand. I run RG3 on my CRF450 and I can't fault them, my friends say my bike is a cheater bike. Good suspension makes it safer to go faster.
I had RG3 do the forks on my '99 KX250 for the gnarly PNW trails. I miss those forks.
Lower stiction is what you're paying through the nose for. Translates into better ride and better traction via quicker initial response to bumps and holes.
You can get some similar improvement on stock forks by using quality seals and fork oil. I’m always amazed how good stock forks feel after a service.
I remember going from a dual sport bike to a sachs equipped 2008 husqvarna 450 enduro.The difference was night and day.i was stunned how i could crash through holes and rocks.For my 10 cents i prefer to set them a bit softer ,less tiring and easier to compress the suspension
Thanks for the video and your channel - I like it a lot!
Your riding test result and conclusion is fully correct and (for me) easy to explain by theory and practical knowledge I have built up over many years (engineer and enduro rider doing suspension, including using the well known restackor calculation tool).
Cone valve means (only!) the so called mid valve design for compression direction. The other parts are more or less conventional stuff. Mid valve usually is what has a bottleneck effect to harsh impacts aka high damping speeds. Standard midvalves are a bit harder to reduce said bottleneck than cone valve. But it can be done. Thus - 3500$ is a bit much for this plus but also the parts come with high quality and a obviously improved rebound setup (which also is possible with stock components).
Back to back with AER forks the well known increased friction of AER system also contributes - making the AER system for Enduro less comfortable. Comparing Cone-valve to an well set up Kayaba fork would have been more fair in comparing - maybe.
just my opinion ;-)
I had an ohlins setup on 2 japanese and 1 KTM and they were pretty friggen sweet.....better than a revalve on stock stuff......this was for MX and GPs
It was about 2k for inserts and shock,
They were pretty amazing piece of suspension
The Öhlins TTX shock is the only shock that works well on the XCW KTMs with the PDS suspension. It baffles me why WP can’t figure it out. Until KTM puts KYB suspension on their bikes I won’t buy another one.
Kyle I`m a big fan .
I like that you review different bikes and even mods to those bikes.
You did exactly the right thing by comparing stock verses Cone valve .
I think you may mis the Cone Valve forks when you review other bikes .
Maybe you could have a separate drawing for a suspension package like that .
I`d enter ......
I don't have the cone valve on my 21 te300i but I put the pro 6500 cartridge in which basically the same setup without the cone value, and absolutely love the forks now. The stock with proper spring and valving still was harsh
Just received a set of 6500s to install before the weekend. Good to hear you like them.
@@TeamStruggleBunny yes totally transformed handling, they act better the faster you push them, had solid performance valve them
Gona do the same to my 23 fc450 with race tech gold valves set up mx
Gona respring the rear and gold valve too
At 225lb the stock suspension does not work well.
@@TeamStruggleBunny how did you end up liking the 6500s
@@jessewilson8283 Huge improvement, really happy with the initial test. I installed them for this weekend's ride and put a couple hours on them on some rocky power line trails and was really impressed. The float is set in comfort, comp at 18 and reb at 20. I put 325ml vs the 380 the sheet calls for and they were impressively plush without being too soft. At race pace in rougher terrain with high speed braking bumps I may need to change things up a bit but for the rocks and square edge step ups from this weekend they worked very well. Much less fatigue and far more confidence inspiring.
KREFT - My 2K Kreft build with valve control added was awesome for trail and track. the settings and paperwork I got made me a better tuner. for 1/2 the price of these one could get a pro build from KREFT.
He has tried kreft and motoxperts work on bikes before. I think he likes the cones more.
I rode cone valve fork with the shock. Its like Cadillac cushy with tremendous holdup. Really good.
I think a good comparison would be the 6500 cartridge kit from wp to the cone valves. That way it’s spring to spring rather than air to spring. Iv heard great things about the 6500 kit.
I like mine!
That's an expensive test lol
THe 6500 are better than stock no where as good as the WP Pro cone valve.
I have the 6500 cartridge and they work great. My friend has the convalves and I can't notice the difference, but they cost half.
The forks are only as good as the shock and vice versa. You cant change a fork and expect it to work perfectly without also having a shock setup to match it.
Suspension is absolutely critical! Number one modification!
But don’t drink the coolaid.. don’t buy a set of CV .. save the money, get a set of WP 6500’s , luckys, or ravens, KYB etc..
What you are feeling and talking about is the difference in a well set up spring fork vs a air fork and not switching the shock will drastically change how the fork works. So still running the super Trax with the aer.
I switched from Yamaha to KTM and was not impressed with the aer fork at. I ended trying two different spring conversions and the closest thing to kyb is the Mx-tech Lucky kit. I had it set up by N2Dirt. Best set up for all around riding and on par with KYB SSS.
What other kit did you try?
@@AUSTIN_457 dal soggio sphere
You need to add a camera to the fork tube with a side shot w/60fps+ of the different forks in action over the same terrain.
I replaced the WP forks with Ohlins fork - feedback way less, much more planted everywhere - safer riding
Planted riding? Whats that? These AER forks have me dancing all over the place and i can't stand them
While I dont have CV's I have A kit Mx Tech forks and rebuilt shock. It made a ginormous difference. I hope some day I can afford to purchase their national shock because I heard it is amazing!
As much as I would like a cone valve set up I just can't bring myself to spend that kind of money. I have the stock xplor spring suspension on my 2020 xcw. I weigh about 185 and have found that by running Tubliss (probably not for racing) and a fatter front tire such as the 90/90 Goldentyre, I get way less deflection and a pretty dam nice plush ride. I run about 6-7 psi out front. I am also lucky enough to have the preload settings on top of my fork. If I hit the desert and its whooped I can preload it by +3 and I never bottom. Just thought I'd share what's worked for me. Thanks for all that you do Kyle!!!
You’re right! Just did that to my 2023 KTM Ersberg rodeo 300 XCW!
I’ve had Kevin at MotoXperts do 2 sets of WP for me. One set is the 6500 cartridge and the other was a revalve and gold valve the AER forks. I can’t really tell one way or another which is better now. The gold valve allows the fork to run like 50cc more oil which helps a ton. The 6500 kit is more cost effective than a full set of cone valves. Both are closed cartridge mid valve 48mm. One just runs a conical valve and small spring
vs a shim stack.
The biggest improvement to WP is the Trax shock. That things is worth it’s weight in gold. Way more rear wheel hookup and it handles chop light years better than the stock Xact shock.
The AER forks on my old KTM were horrific.. even after multiple revalve/air set ups. I couldn't get them to work for me. I don't notice just how bad they are until I rode a bike with better forks. The cone valves are far better.. they hold a line better and work way better the more aggressive you ride. But more importantly they work extremely well on your off days.. when your not riding at 100%. You've made a great choice Kyle 👍
I assume you are running Tubliss... I switched to the cone valves and trax shock with Nuetech soft mousse. Could not get it dialed in -- too harsh. Went back to tubliss with cone valves and trax shock and the set up is the best - of course Solid Performance stuck with me the whole way with different settings, springs etc. until the suspension was perfect. Try running mousse as an experiment for the channel and highlight your findings.
That's where mine are from
I took the multi-bike route when i decided to buy a Smart Carb 2. It moved from my 99' 300EXC to my '17 300 XCW. I've had it 4-5 years now. It's made it definitely worth it. I don't think i'm a good enough rider for Cone Valves. I may never be, actually.
Hey Kyle. So you are gonna swap the cone valves out with each new bike for 3-4 bikes? Are you going to rebuild the fork for each new bike? And what did you do to prep the cone valve for your specific needs?
I have a 2022 300-xc and am thinking your idea might work for me.
Thanks!
That's some true life details! Great review of the products!
the XCWs dont have air forks...? they should be xplor, which are springs, but incredibly soft.
He is riding an XC not an XCW.
I have Cone Valves. Brand new the setting is real firm so they need a revalve straight away. Once set up they are superb.
Without a doubt the cone valve forks will make you the best B/C level weekend warrior you can be. 😂
Plus your friends will think you’re rad…at least that’s what they say about mine. 😂
I’ve got a low hour 2022 set I’ll give you a good deal on. 😂
They were used on my David Pingree VitalMX Race shop build FC501.
That’s my concern with getting cone valves… you become a walking “C vet hero” stereotype 😂
@@DmitriyAdv Just cover your cone valve forks with stickers from some 4CS forks and people will be amazed at your skill!
@@youtubeaccount9058 that's a great idea hahaha. Too bad that the tops of Cone valves are so distinct.
Why would you have to buy all new forks just to change out a internal valve?
That is a valid point.
aww the good old warm up wash ride. love those trails. I wonder what happened with that burned up section. just went there this last weekend and noticed it was all burned up.
More parts reviews please. Ps you should try a tm en300fi.
I have a TM 250 Fi. I like it. Obviously Kyle has a great channel with lots of followers, but maybe I should do a review showing some on bike riding like he does.
@@roostafish961 do it!
Im confused. I thought the xcw comes with the non air forks with the springs? Are those cone valves spring or air? Why wouldn’t you compare air to air &/or spring to spring?
Kyle, are they the xplor WP XPLOR pro 7548 or the XACT pro 7548? My understanding is they are a different length for the XC vs the XC-W bikes
At the end you said you're going to buy a set of xplor pro's to use on multiple bikes. Are you worried about the standard going from 48mm forks to 50mm?
Sorry, second question; this may be heresy but, how is wp vs kyb or ohlins? Other than being on brand, is there any reason not to look at them?
I have a Husky TE300 with Xplor fork and my friends YZ450F is way more comfortable on the trail
Question where are the boys did you separate?? My grandson like to se them ride
Which sets are more expensive, the cone valves for WP or the A Kit for others?
Other are more pricey. Ohlins etc. Cone valve 6-8k. Others closer to 10
@@russphillips3732 Wow, OK, so basically the cost of the bike, again! Thanks.
Showa A-kit is the most expensive by far, cause EVERYTHING is coated billet aluminum or titanium with kashima and titanium nitride. Just bought a set for my Honda CRF450RX I've been building for Sprint Enduro & GNCC. -KYB & MX Tech are next, and the least expensive are WP and Ohlins...probably Ohlins and WP feel the best for vet guys in all reality, but I wanted to keep everything Honda for my build...Showa & MX Tech have attention to detail for every little part on their suspension packages to deliver the very best product that has performance, durability, and longer service interval technology built into it.
@@jonathondavis170 Thanks!
I figured out at a young age that I can personally go faster and ride better spending money on suspension than engine in most cases. And yes, I did learn and continue to learn better technique. Then again, I'm old enough to remember "White Power" before WP.
is the tick over set real high? it sounds like it. maybe its an xc thing?
I’ve got A kit on my Husky FC350, the forks are great, but the shock is where the real benefit is.
Spend coin on some kyb stuff and then do a comparison to any wp hoo hah you like
Wow normally you get like 500 views in 8 hours this is at 5k in 5 hours keep up the good work and new video style.
At 1/3 the price aero kit still beats out kyb or 6500 or conevalve converted bladder style
What are you talking about? The only "converted bladder style" is for the rear shock.
@@KoltFin no old closed cartridge had a bladder instead of a spring to compress the fluid
How would you compare them to the kreft kit?
I have a 15 300xc. Bought slavens Mx tech lucky kit send everything to Mx Tech for them to do that and the shock. Night and day… I was able to do a hair cheaper than $3500 and that’s with Kashima coating, triple adjuster, etc.
Even with more rebound ?
Did you do anything with your shock to match the cone valves ?
What about the xplor forks?
xcw has oil forks/ xc has air forks or am I wrong? Just wondering if these cone shocks would replace both (oil and/or air) front forks? I'm not a big fan of the xc's air forks.
The xcw(te) forks are valves far to soft for any sort of faster riding. I consider myself a C class rider but my te250i forks are terrible in the desert. I did stiffen them up but it only helped a little.
I'm looking at the kyb and 6500 kit or some cones if the price is right. Something people don't consider in the cone vs cartridge is that you are buying another set of forks not just the inner components
KYB feels so much more supportive and responsive over the WP.
Compared to Kreft?
Great like ever! P.s. could You explain in a near future the NomOusse sistem and manteinance and than compare It with the other sistema like tubliss , Traxy, mousse (various special ones) , tube (and tube in old cutted tube) and tubeless . Many thanks and go on!!!!
If you don’t Taylor the cones to your riding/level or are a beginner rider there is a small chance you will get injured on them because the cones are very digressive and need higher starting pressures to get them moving but once they move they become more linear in the stroke. In summary don’t putz around in them because those forks can deflect off things. I Personally like the cones with the cone removed and a normal midvalve out in for off-road pretty plush/firm fork.
That is not to say you cannot make them amazing but off the shelf they may require work to make safe and comfortable.
I think those forks are more than $3500! Plus you gotta get them revalved and possibly resprung...most guys are north of $5k all in.
130 psi!?!? Then complaints about harshness? Thing is super undersprung… he’ll just the spring rate is enough to make the CV feel better
If you think that's impressive you should throw some aftermarket suspension on there for MX Tech or Enzo, I have MXT forks and it's the best money I have ever put into a bike.
you should use xtrig rocs to make the forks work like they should!! The stock clamps are binding them
subliminally encouraging people to pay exorbitant amounts of money on high level suspension upgrades when there are suspension tuners all over the country that can make the stock internals work really well for most applications for less than half the price
Random question, what is the best bike for someone that’s really tall?
Not a beta. I've heard shercos feel a little smaller than ktm. I think the best for tall is a Yamaha.
The pds on ktms likes to make the bike taller vs a husky/gas gas bike. But with so many aftermarket products you could make any work for a tall person
Is that out in Eagle mountain?
But you loved the Kreft moto set up... I feel like you love whoever gives you a deal.
Anything that he’s riding currently. A lot of catchy absolute words. BEST. ULTIMATE. SMOOTHEST.
Kreft is good. WP6500 with a bladder conversion kit on the shock and tuned for your riding is better. I have owned both.
@@frabraz I stopped putting stock in what he says years ago..
@@dirkdiggler3009 Kyle makes zero sense... He refuses to race, but wants to drop thousands on A kit suspension... I terribly disagree with a lot of his ideas... you are spot on in regards to the 6500 cartridges though.
@@jasonlash544 Well its obviously his passion. So I give him credit for trying his best to explain to the average rider whether or not these products make a difference. Not many people will be able to afford or justify factory suspension on a 13k bike and he must be doing well financially to do what he does. Hats of to him really. I just think this video would have had more value if he had taken the time to compare bone stock suspension both ends with factory suspension both ends. He left the traxx shock in for both tests which would have effected the feeling of the stock fork. He also didn't mention if he had the traxx shock setup for him personally. Otherwise he is making good content for a specific type of rider. Mostly riders who are getting into the sport and only have limited experience.
KYB conversion from Technical Touch is under $2k...
KYB comes stock on at least 4 other brand of bikes...lol
Hold up, you're gonna recommend cone valves without even mentioning the service intervals? That alone rules out cone valves for the vast majority of riders.
I need more money in my life before I commit to the cone valves! I love the idea of buying them and using them for several bikes though. That is a great option.
The wp 6500 cartridge it's 95% the same as the convalve, but half as expensive
You seem like a great guy. Your content is good. It's very specific and I don't watch as much as I used to. I am pretty sure your specificity is catering to a smaller and smaller, as well as high end market. Your channel is not for the 90% of us just looking for fun and value. I wish you luck though.
contact Morgan Spradling with highlandcycles in Montrose Co tbt suspension has some mods to the air fork that might be worth trying for way less money.
If stock is good for Jarvis, then it's definitely good for me as well :)
His "demo day" bikes are sometimes stock with super soft set/valving.. his race bike is WP Cone Valve and rear is traxx 👍
WP cartridge 6500 is not bad... almost cone valve ...
The problem with these riding test,, even if the rider is not attempting to sell the product, is the rider's mental prejudice that since their expensive, other riders swear by them, they are better than stock forks. I'm not suggesting the test have no value, but there is noting scientific about the test and its based on the riders opinion. Who would pay 1/3 the cost of a the bike better forks when you could invest it in a better bike?
Thanks for this video
Night and day difference. Have them on my 250, 300, 500 and 790. So far I've been able to buy a new bike every 2 years and just swap the WP Pro components but for 2023 250 only the folks transfer. In 2024 the shock will be different on all my bikes but maybe the 790.
The shock mount is different for 23? I know they put that hand adjuster on the bottom.. but will my '20 shock that's been set up not fit the 23?
@@jasonlash544 It is on the 23 XC and the SX. In 24 they say it will be different on the XC-W as well.
@@wfodavid well darn... At least the forks are swappable
Perfect stage b kit for the average joe~
people need to understand you need to service your forks shocks at 30hrs or so to keep perfomance. 50+ hrs is just wrecking your ride and equiptment.
Dryer areas you can get away with longer hours.
This test while appreciated is kind of irrelevant. You should be doing a comparison between the stock setup and a factory setup tailored to you. It has to include the shock though. Simply slapping a fork on might feel better at the bars through the wrist. But for all important bike balance both ends need to be changed at the same time or else it is pointless. I would think the cone valve or a 6500 kit will only really shine once you have the shock setup to match it.
The rear shock is set for him. He left the supertrax shock on for both rides.
@@KoltFin I know. Which is my point. He should have compared stock suspension vs factory. Both fork and shock back to back.
@@dirkdiggler3009 I've tried a trax shock on my bike versus the stock one and I didn't really notice a difference on single track. But I don't have cones to compare to stock. That being said my 99 yz400f forks are better then my 21 te250i.
@@KoltFin I got my rear shock revalved with the bladder conversion and noticed a huge difference. I think the stock suspension on KTM, Husq, GG bikes could be a lot better for the money. It really is frustrating.
@@dirkdiggler3009 100% agree, my local suspension shop quoted me like $1500 just to rework/revalve my stock stuff.
Do you have a pds or a linkage bike? My buddy has a 18 xcw that he had alpine Xc install a bladder kit. He said it was a big improvement. Especially over roots.
Suspension setup is key
I put the cone vavle fork on my 890. Blew my mind.
240 or 270mm?
@@frankpusch4616 270mm. It's a very tall bike now.
Our WP air forks suck! Less the 10 hrs and there leaking air. I agree with most. Compare drop in conversation kit to the 3500$ kit.
Buy a set of Kayaba inserts,much cheaper and just as good,maybe better
Kyle, I disagree with absolutely nothing you have to say! I do whis you had shown or tried the forks in some slow technical rocky trails. I personally have the most issue with the AER's in a recovery situation where the fork has to step over baseball to softball size rocks to get started again. This i where the AER's will not comply enough (compared to spring forks). One more thing, remember the 23's are all new, so wait untill you start on you new gen. bike to spend that cash.😁😁
Nice one Kyle 👍
It's sort of ridiculous how long Cone Valve/Trax suspension has been around and they don't put them in all their bikes. How much more could it cost to manufacturer? The premium price of the 3 KTM brands and a 2006 Yamaha has better boingers. 💸💸💸
You’re not wrong. I’ve moved over to a TM after 10 years on KTM and lots of playing with suspension, 2CS,4CS,XPLOR,AER. I’ve ridden the Cone Valve and Traxx as well. I agree with someone else here who says the Traxx shock makes a bigger difference than the forks. With all of that said, the TM with KYBforks and TM in house shock are at least equal if not better after break in, with proper weight springs. Trying not to be a fanboy of whatever I’m currently riding. One guys perspective.
Why would they put them in when they can sell them for big bucks after? About 10 years ago KTM changed from a company that was run by motorcycle people to a company run by accountants. Enough people are addicted to their "Kool-aid" and cannot see that there are better options out there for less money. But hey, people buy Harleys too.
I'm sick of the junk forks ktm puts on their high priced bikes. The xplor fork is a bargain basement cheap fork that comes standard on the $13,500 500 exc-f. I agree that cone valve forks can't be that more expensive to manufacture and what ktm charges for a bike should come stock from the factory.
I’m very disappointed with my WP xplor forks on my 22 300XCW and think these might be just the ticket!
That's because the xplor fork is a bargin basement cheap fork.
@@mxbadboy263 not true, bettercquality than KYB...ask a good tuner