Παναγιωτη, you are a genius! It must have taken you a lot of time and effort to arrive to such excellent result. Well done and thank You for sharing your findings. I will now follow your suggestions and silence this ringing platter. Mind you, in the past I did have a Linn LP12 and it's platter rang worse than the AT120!
Thank you very much for all this knowledge and experience. I just tested play a record with the coins, a rubber mat and a weight stabilizer at the center and the platter rumble was reduced notoriously. Thank you again!
Now I'm figure out how to make a 1mm thick bronze ring to replace the coins or fin some kind of industrial metal seal, like those used in piping to test
@@takyslav there is this Nordic guy who also did some excellent tests. I don’t know about his soft clay solution, maybe more mass is what the platter needs, which is one of your approaches. Love the tinkerers, 👍👍👍 th-cam.com/video/SIV04GcHJLs/w-d-xo.html
Hi sir I did notice that if sound deadening materials were added it did have an affect on speed storability . You could detect the motor trying to compensate for the extra wait . Do you think this is a acceptable compromise to be allowed for the benefit of of deadening the plater . Best wishes and kind regards to your good self 😀👍👍👍
An additional comment. The results shown in the last picture make clear that the rubber mat (white color) is better than the cork/coins damper (magenta color) only in the very low frequencies, while above 200 Hz the cork is clearly superior. Given the special importance of damping the higher range of frequencies, I will experiment with a cork replacer of the rubber. I need to make it in 2 layers, to create the 1 mm thinner central part, hosting the thicker LP label region.
Panayotis Kritidis I use a thick cork mat and that gave me great results on the sound. It's about 4mm of thickness. I don't have any software to check the improvement and quality. I just listen and compare.
Like many others, I have an AT LP120 with a wobbly platter. Has the main reason for the wobbly platter ever been determined (warped platter, lose or bent spindle, something else), and do you know how to fix it? Regards Daniel
Mine was fixed by removing the platter, cleaning off the spindle walls, turning the platter a quarter turn and firmly returning it into position using equal downward force. If it still wobbles try again, another quarter turn. Its not the platter thats wobbling, its not been installed evenly sometimes do to dust or dirt where the platter mets the spindle. - Good luck
LP120 was called "professional" by AT not due to some very high sound quality, but due to a number of features making easier the work of a DJ. So it is rather suitable for a "loud party". Nevertheless, today I would use for a "loud party" some specialized digital software and if a "vinyl sound" is wanted - good digital copies of vinyl recordings.
Silly question, but what did you use to bond the cork to the underside of the platter. Adhesive spray? Glue? I've seen other people use sorobothane or a sound dampening rubber material underneath. Had you tied any of those and found cork compared better? Also, would you mind explaining your town arm mod? I saw on Audiokarma someone actually used shrink tubing. I'd bought some but chickened out last second. It was impossible to get over the arm cleanly/neatly- plus I was afraid of cooking the internal tone arm wires- so I went back to using o-rings... Sigh- the tubing seems to do a better job though from the mods I've seen and man does it look cool- especially with a black head shell. Curious what you used.... Thanks and sorry for so many questions and the lengthy post.
Hi. 1. I used UHU glue to bond the cork. So the cork can be relatively easily removed, if necessary. 2. I damp the tonearm with a 5 mm wide black elastic strip used in underwear. No glue, just some tension + initial and final fixation with harder rings. Easy to remove.
Panayotis Kritidis perfect, thank you! That makes sense using a less permanent glue. I have some left over speaker glue from a refoam I think would be perfect. I think I’m going to try another method for the tone arm. Your elastic method gave me this idea so all credit to you. I’m going to use a combination of the o-ring dampening method on the opposite ends(two on each side and this stuff called shrink flex (they use it on speaker wires and for cable management/longevity) between the two sets of o-rings. Hoping it’ll cut off any resonance between the two sets of o-rings while also making it look nice. Here’s the link: 25ft - 3/8 inch Flexo PET Expandable Braided Sleeving - BlackRed - Alex Tech Braided Cable Sleeve www.amazon.com/dp/B072M98HTV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_yKXHBb09KYART Added bonus: I’ll use the excess for cable management between my LP120 and Marantz receiver : )
The rumble is an added noise. The ringing adds 'coloration' of the sound = resonances in certain frequencies. BTW, you often formulate short questions, which need long answers. I think that a lot of good courses on Hi-Fi are available in the Net.
Panayotis Kritidis thanks! I have been learning about the turntables, LPs, cartiege almost a year through TH-cam. I will looking for the HiFi courses that you told me
Interesting video! I see your anti-skating mechanism is different from the original you posted before. I am very interested in your method, but see that you don't have a video showing it in detail. I have been reworking mine after I watched a review on the AT-LP120 on HIViNyws Channel th-cam.com/video/J_LzV45Ha30/w-d-xo.html. He mentioned the tonearm bearings feel tight so I tried loosening them to help the anti-skate spring do it's job better. I loosened the bearing with a small screwdriver and and held onto the middle portion and tightened until the play was gone. I then checked to make sure it would move freely with no binding. Then I put on my analog test LP and played the anti-skate track and got the right sound by adjusting my anti-skate dial. It's working okay, but feel I need to get away form that and use the weighted system you have. About the platter dampening, I used a rubberized spray sealant called Flex Seal to put an initial coating on the bottom. Then I later used Sound Coat that really killed the ringing. On top of the platter I use a Achromat by Funk acrylic pad with a Herbie Foam pad on top of it for more dampening. Your method is great and more thought out and your test results show great results. I always enjoy seeing different ideas on improving this turntable. Thanks!
Vinyl 2CD Rescue, thank You for the comments. As for the antiskating mechanism, this is just a new version of my old one, with more convenient location of the elements. This is not "my method" at all, but just a version of a widely used method in the past and, sometimes, today too. I will describe it in a special clip later. About the tonearm bearings: I did the same in my tonearm. My criterion for correct adjustment is the presence of a VERY slight freedom of the bearing, just listenable as a soft "click" when pushing and pulling the tonearm by hand. As for the motor noise reduction, I continue to test various damping materials and will post later my findings and preferred solutions. It is important to have a material combining elasticity and friction in proper manner. Some materials will demonstrate a gradual plastic deformation, which will make them thinner, less elastic and less effective. In this case, if we like the INITIAL effect, we have to use wider pieces, in order to distribute the motor/platter weight to larger area. A criterion of good condition, except the acoustical test, is the constant height of the platter after - say - 1 day. And something very important! Due to the 'contents' of the motor system block, it's center of weight does not coincide with the platter center, but is located slightly to the front. (The original construction did not oblige the designers to balance the block). This means that in the case of strictly symmetrical suspension, the suspended motor system + the platter on it will have a slight slope to the front. Therefore, we need some more damping material in the front direction to achieve the platter's horizontality. Greetings!
Thanks for the great info! I did apply the same thickness of dampening material all the way around, but didn't notice any sloping. I'll take some measurements, but I have the platter level itself. When I applied the Sound Coat I made sure to cut and apply the same size pieces in opposition to each other to keep it balanced. Even before I dampened the platter when playing at 45 RPM the turntable would make the suspended platform I have it on wobble (it's actually a slight wobble to where it sways slowly back and forth about maybe a 1/4 and inch). It still has it, but not as bad so I have to put a piece of foam between the platform and the wall to prevent the wobbling when playing 45 rpm. The things we have to do to make this turntable better.
"The things we have to do to make this turntable better." Exactly! Why give 1000 Euro more for something we can do by ourselves with 100 Euro or less? Now I am thinking about a simple and reliable linear tonearm construction. I want to avoid the luxurious air bearing variant and try first a 'purely mechanical' and later - may be - a servo motor driven version, based on this purely mechanical and some simple angle detection system.
Κ.Κρητίδη καλησπέρα.Εχω το AT LP 120 το οποίο αγόρασα πριν απο 7-8 ημέρες καινούργιο απο κατάστημα της Αθήνας.Παρατήρησα οτι υπάρχει κάποιος θόρυβος απο το μοτέρ το οποίο περνάει στη βελόνα.Αυτο έγινε ακόμα πιο αισθητό οταν εκανα μια ηχογράφηση ενους βινυλίου στον υπολογιστή και το άκουσα με τα ακουστικά.Επίσης παρατήρησα οτι οταν ανεβάζω τις στροφές στις 78 και χωρίς κάποιον δίσκο πανω , μονο με το πλατό , ο θόρυβος είναι έντονος απο το μοτέρ.Τι μου προτείνετε να κάνω πέρα το να το στείλω πισω στην εταιρεία?Είδα οτι πολλοί κάτοχοι του συγκεκριμένου πικάπ εχουν το ίδιο πρόβλημα (motor noise). Ευχαριστώ εκ των προτέρων.
Αν ακούς θόρυβο από το μοτέρ τότε να ελπίζεις ότι με την αλλαγή μιας βελόνας αυτό να σταματήσει. Ή θέμα γείωσης είναι ή αλλιώς στείλτε το πίσω. Δες την γείωση....
Very nice! Finally someone backs things up by showing measurements! 👍
Παναγιωτη, you are a genius!
It must have taken you a lot of time and effort to arrive to such excellent result.
Well done and thank You for sharing your findings. I will now follow your suggestions and silence this ringing platter.
Mind you, in the past I did have a Linn LP12 and it's platter rang worse than the AT120!
Ci avevo pensato ma ora che ho visto lo farò anche io.
Thank you very much for all this knowledge and experience. I just tested play a record with the coins, a rubber mat and a weight stabilizer at the center and the platter rumble was reduced notoriously. Thank you again!
Now I'm figure out how to make a 1mm thick bronze ring to replace the coins or fin some kind of industrial metal seal, like those used in piping to test
This is an excellent video, thanks. So you know if the newer 120s have this issue also?
Some newer Technics models have better damped platters, but I don't know if 120s are amongst them.
@@takyslav there is this Nordic guy who also did some excellent tests. I don’t know about his soft clay solution, maybe more mass is what the platter needs, which is one of your approaches. Love the tinkerers, 👍👍👍
th-cam.com/video/SIV04GcHJLs/w-d-xo.html
Audiophile god!
Hi sir I did notice that if sound deadening materials were added it did have an affect on speed storability . You could detect the motor trying to compensate for the extra wait . Do you think this is a acceptable compromise to be allowed for the benefit of of deadening the plater . Best wishes and kind regards to your good self 😀👍👍👍
Hi. I don't think the effect you describe is significant.
Why did this?
An additional comment. The results shown in the last picture make clear that the rubber mat (white color) is better than the cork/coins damper (magenta color) only in the very low frequencies, while above 200 Hz the cork is clearly superior. Given the special importance of damping the higher range of frequencies, I will experiment with a cork replacer of the rubber. I need to make it in 2 layers, to create the 1 mm thinner central part, hosting the thicker LP label region.
Panayotis Kritidis I use a thick cork mat and that gave me great results on the sound. It's about 4mm of thickness. I don't have any software to check the improvement and quality. I just listen and compare.
could be interesting to see how this works with a rubber-cork mat... i'm just wondering
Luis Fabres I did try and works well but they are just my likes
good! I will give it a try... thanks
I read that some people use acrylic mat under LPs. What do you think about that and did you use/measure it?
Can you suggest a way and a matterial to dampen the subchasis base?
Can you elaborate on your anti skating mod?
Like many others, I have an AT LP120 with a wobbly platter. Has the main reason for the wobbly platter ever been determined (warped platter, lose or bent spindle, something else), and do you know how to fix it? Regards Daniel
It would be good to know the type and the extent of the 'wobbling'.
Thank you for answering! This isn't my platter, but my wobble look similar to the wobble in this video:
th-cam.com/video/QenLVc-gCB8/w-d-xo.html
Mine was fixed by removing the platter, cleaning off the spindle walls, turning the platter a quarter turn and firmly returning it into position using equal downward force. If it still wobbles try again, another quarter turn. Its not the platter thats wobbling, its not been installed evenly sometimes do to dust or dirt where the platter mets the spindle. - Good luck
What adhesive did you use to glue the cork to the inside of the platter?
Nothing special - the simple UHU (not the "stick", the slower hardening one). The reason - to be able to "undo" with no serious problems.
Are these turntables good enough for any loud party?
LP120 was called "professional" by AT not due to some very high sound quality, but due to a number of features making easier the work of a DJ. So it is rather suitable for a "loud party". Nevertheless, today I would use for a "loud party" some specialized digital software and if a "vinyl sound" is wanted - good digital copies of vinyl recordings.
Silly question, but what did you use to bond the cork to the underside of the platter. Adhesive spray? Glue? I've seen other people use sorobothane or a sound dampening rubber material underneath. Had you tied any of those and found cork compared better? Also, would you mind explaining your town arm mod? I saw on Audiokarma someone actually used shrink tubing. I'd bought some but chickened out last second. It was impossible to get over the arm cleanly/neatly- plus I was afraid of cooking the internal tone arm wires- so I went back to using o-rings... Sigh- the tubing seems to do a better job though from the mods I've seen and man does it look cool- especially with a black head shell. Curious what you used.... Thanks and sorry for so many questions and the lengthy post.
Hi.
1. I used UHU glue to bond the cork. So the cork can be relatively easily removed, if necessary.
2. I damp the tonearm with a 5 mm wide black elastic strip used in underwear. No glue, just some tension + initial and final fixation with harder rings. Easy to remove.
Panayotis Kritidis perfect, thank you! That makes sense using a less permanent glue. I have some left over speaker glue from a refoam I think would be perfect. I think I’m going to try another method for the tone arm. Your elastic method gave me this idea so all credit to you. I’m going to use a combination of the o-ring dampening method on the opposite ends(two on each side and this stuff called shrink flex (they use it on speaker wires and for cable management/longevity) between the two sets of o-rings. Hoping it’ll cut off any resonance between the two sets of o-rings while also making it look nice. Here’s the link:
25ft - 3/8 inch Flexo PET Expandable Braided Sleeving - BlackRed - Alex Tech Braided Cable Sleeve www.amazon.com/dp/B072M98HTV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_yKXHBb09KYART
Added bonus: I’ll use the excess for cable management between my LP120 and Marantz receiver : )
in which way The ringing and rumble affect on the quality sound?
The rumble is an added noise. The ringing adds 'coloration' of the sound = resonances in certain frequencies. BTW, you often formulate short questions, which need long answers. I think that a lot of good courses on Hi-Fi are available in the Net.
Panayotis Kritidis thanks! I have been learning about the turntables, LPs, cartiege almost a year through TH-cam. I will looking for the HiFi courses that you told me
Panayotis Kritidis I really enjoy your videos and tutorials. Keep going man! :) Together for making a better at-lp120 ahaha
Interesting video! I see your anti-skating mechanism is different from the original you posted before. I am very interested in your method, but see that you don't have a video showing it in detail. I have been reworking mine after I watched a review on the AT-LP120 on HIViNyws Channel th-cam.com/video/J_LzV45Ha30/w-d-xo.html. He mentioned the tonearm bearings feel tight so I tried loosening them to help the anti-skate spring do it's job better. I loosened the bearing with a small screwdriver and and held onto the middle portion and tightened until the play was gone. I then checked to make sure it would move freely with no binding. Then I put on my analog test LP and played the anti-skate track and got the right sound by adjusting my anti-skate dial. It's working okay, but feel I need to get away form that and use the weighted system you have.
About the platter dampening, I used a rubberized spray sealant called Flex Seal to put an initial coating on the bottom. Then I later used Sound Coat that really killed the ringing. On top of the platter I use a Achromat by Funk acrylic pad with a Herbie Foam pad on top of it for more dampening. Your method is great and more thought out and your test results show great results. I always enjoy seeing different ideas on improving this turntable. Thanks!
Vinyl 2CD Rescue, thank You for the comments. As for the antiskating mechanism, this is just a new version of my old one, with more convenient location of the elements. This is not "my method" at all, but just a version of a widely used method in the past and, sometimes, today too. I will describe it in a special clip later.
About the tonearm bearings: I did the same in my tonearm. My criterion for correct adjustment is the presence of a VERY slight freedom of the bearing, just listenable as a soft "click" when pushing and pulling the tonearm by hand.
As for the motor noise reduction, I continue to test various damping materials and will post later my findings and preferred solutions. It is important to have a material combining elasticity and friction in proper manner. Some materials will demonstrate a gradual plastic deformation, which will make them thinner, less elastic and less effective. In this case, if we like the INITIAL effect, we have to use wider pieces, in order to distribute the motor/platter weight to larger area. A criterion of good condition, except the acoustical test, is the constant height of the platter after - say - 1 day.
And something very important! Due to the 'contents' of the motor system block, it's center of weight does not coincide with the platter center, but is located slightly to the front. (The original construction did not oblige the designers to balance the block). This means that in the case of strictly symmetrical suspension, the suspended motor system + the platter on it will have a slight slope to the front. Therefore, we need some more damping material in the front direction to achieve the platter's horizontality.
Greetings!
Thanks for the great info! I did apply the same thickness of dampening material all the way around, but didn't notice any sloping. I'll take some measurements, but I have the platter level itself. When I applied the Sound Coat I made sure to cut and apply the same size pieces in opposition to each other to keep it balanced. Even before I dampened the platter when playing at 45 RPM the turntable would make the suspended platform I have it on wobble (it's actually a slight wobble to where it sways slowly back and forth about maybe a 1/4 and inch). It still has it, but not as bad so I have to put a piece of foam between the platform and the wall to prevent the wobbling when playing 45 rpm. The things we have to do to make this turntable better.
"The things we have to do to make this turntable better."
Exactly! Why give 1000 Euro more for something we can do by ourselves with 100 Euro or less?
Now I am thinking about a simple and reliable linear tonearm construction. I want to avoid the luxurious air bearing variant and try first a 'purely mechanical' and later - may be - a servo motor driven version, based on this purely mechanical and some simple angle detection system.
Κ.Κρητίδη καλησπέρα.Εχω το AT LP 120 το οποίο αγόρασα πριν απο 7-8 ημέρες καινούργιο απο κατάστημα της Αθήνας.Παρατήρησα οτι υπάρχει κάποιος θόρυβος απο το μοτέρ το οποίο περνάει στη βελόνα.Αυτο έγινε ακόμα πιο αισθητό οταν εκανα μια ηχογράφηση ενους βινυλίου στον υπολογιστή και το άκουσα με τα ακουστικά.Επίσης παρατήρησα οτι οταν ανεβάζω τις στροφές στις 78 και χωρίς κάποιον δίσκο πανω , μονο με το πλατό , ο θόρυβος είναι έντονος απο το μοτέρ.Τι μου προτείνετε να κάνω πέρα το να το στείλω πισω στην εταιρεία?Είδα οτι πολλοί κάτοχοι του συγκεκριμένου πικάπ εχουν το ίδιο πρόβλημα (motor noise).
Ευχαριστώ εκ των προτέρων.
Αν ακούς θόρυβο από το μοτέρ τότε να ελπίζεις ότι με την αλλαγή μιας βελόνας αυτό να σταματήσει. Ή θέμα γείωσης είναι ή αλλιώς στείλτε το πίσω. Δες την γείωση....