@@smilingbandit6900 Actually, Dorn had a talk with Malcador in which he confessed that he was afraid that if he knew the full reasoning behind Horus's betrayal, he could be convinced as well. To which Malcador responds that understanding Chaos is madness (or something along those lines).
just imagine the eye roll of the chaos Gods,as their every champion is like"omg wtf am i doing,plz kill me"the 3 Gods ll be like"ffs not him 2" and tzeench be like"everything goes just...as....planned"
I wonder why doesn't anyone refers to how Luther managed to strike Lion? Lion isn't just anybody... remember that even Horus is afraid of him and tries hard to keep Lion away from Terra while he encounters the Emperor. You should all refer and not forget to mention that as Lion fought Luther and despite all the gifts and power Chao's gods granted to Luther couldn't overcome Lions swordsmanship. It was a long duel and then Lion saw an opening that would have given a death blow to Luther but the thought of his dear friend dead didn't let his blade to strike and that fraction of a second that mercy overtook Lions thought Luther found his own opening and stroke hard on Lion. As Lion was falling Luther understood what happened... that he had given an opening to Lion and that Lion didn't strike him. Only then he saw what was happening. That he had betrayed Lion and Chao's had twisted him to do so. It was then that he collapsed, mentally wounded next to Lion after realising the mind blowing truth.
Always saw their fight as a parallel to what happened to the Emperor and Horus, a mirror of sorts. The Lion is like is father in many ways. The only difference is that Luther did'nt die and he has a terrible awareness of his crimes as a reward.
@@texasallstar6969 sure, one of their only displays of humanity makes them retarded. Obviously, killing not only your brother, but one of the few people you can really relate, is one of the most normal human things. I would argue that killing their friends and family without a flinch would make them more retarded.
The Emperor fighting Horus; The Lion fighting Luther. If the Lion had the strength and will to overcome Luther, would he have destroyed him as utterly as the Emperor did Horus? Conversely, if the Emperor didn't destroy Horus, would Horus have laid down his arms and spared his father as Luther did the Lion? What we know for sure is that in both cases, the dark powers fled Horus and Luther at the last moment; offering each a period of sobriety with which they were horrified at their own handiwork. I'd love to hear a conversation, even a telepathic one, between The Lion and his father. Both were directly betrayed by someone they cared for. Perhaps they could help each other heal? A thought had occured to me. Would it be possible for the Emperor to effectively transfer his being into the body of one of his sons? If it were possible, who do you think he would choose, and why?
Lion did get the opportunity. In their fight Lion had an opening and upper hand, it was stated he could have finished Luther then and there but chose not to. Luther was not only his best friend but his father figure, and he had already lost his real dad which left him utterly devastated, he didnt want to lose another, so he let his guard down and as he did Luther attacked him and wounded him.
Luthor was left to purge the Terran Dark Angels because the Lion didn't trust them. Those responsible for opening fire on the fleet were Alpha Legion in Dark Angels armour.
That could be except for the fact the AL could never infiltrate the DA, not even Alpharius could completely figure out their internal hierarchies and secret codes
After reading Luther: First of the Fallen, I find it both tragic and kind of amusingly ironic that Luther did more for Terra than the Lion. Seriously, his dealing with Corswain and encouragement sends Corswain to Terra...and using the idea that 'I know the Lion, he will be heading there' to manipulate him is fascinating as well. Did Luther actually think the Lion would be there? Regardless, he talked the DA (some loyal, some Fallen) to the Siege, while the Lion gave up in what I would say is his most dishonorable, pessimistic state.
Lol what a massive load of horse crap 🤣 Someone needs to read up on a whole variety of books.. your claims are not only wrong but baseless, its not like there have been 15-20+ books that cover these events and more, which all tie in together. Also you need reading comprehension classes, if thats what you gather from that book. Remember, Luther is a master manipulator, yet you are taking every word of his for value.
Since you have zero clue about these other books that actually answer your questions, i will list three of them, in them you will get your answer: Ruinstorm, Dreadwing, and Mortis (new siege of Terra book). To claim Luther did more for Terra is the most idiotic comment to date. What Lion did in the rangdan xenocides alone, far outweighs what anyone else has done. Also he was the main reason behind sang and his legion surviving the Ruinstorm and sang being able to reach Terra in time for its defence. It was thanks to Lion that Corswain could even reach Terra in time to activate the astronomicon, by splitning up his forces and making Corswain the seneschal.
@@awarhammering3955 For Terra, Luther advised Corswain to travel there and gave him Vassago (explaining his presence in Mortis and developing him from AOC). 10,000 DA Astartes were present at Terra, and none of that was to do with the Lion. Corswain found the Astronomican dark, he was guided by a seer. He was moved by Luthor's words, and the Lion sadly saw things as lost. Rather than getting triggered, consider that the Lion not being perfect, and his pessimism overriding his ability and dignity is clearly visible as a plot element when contrasting Heresy stories with Lord of the First, and pride being the fatal flaw of the 1st is a gigantic part of their story. Dreadwing has this stated directly by Holguin. Reading those novels gives the insight that the Lion is incredibly powerful among Primarchs, and so is deceived into often being absent. The Fallen are capable of good, possessing qualities offsetting the Loyalist brutality and obsession clouding their view. Either a kneejerk reaction, or blindness to the pride of the DA being their weakness while unlikely help is their strength is making you complain unnecessarily.
Hi Wolf Lord Rho ! Excellent video and narration ! For your reflexion about the timeline, having started WH40K int he 90's with the V2, I still own this revered tome which is the Codex Angels of Death. I always considered that the lore at this time was not entirely clear and the terms used where to be taken with caution and "flexibility". It was the transition period between the original lore of Rogue Trader and the much deeper, complex and grimdark lore we know now. For instance, space marines could equip shuriken pistols in Rogue Trader, and there where instances of mixed people, half eldar, half human, and so on. When they reworked all this, a lot of terme where used more loosely, without much overthinking about the when and where. So I remember that the codex said that Lio El Jonson was angered and struck down to see the Heresy had grown on his own planet after he crossed the galaxy to purge it after the Defeat on Terra. So, yes, technically they admit in the same sentence that the Lion was engaged in the Scouring AND still place it within the Horus Heresy. We could simply consider the Scouring to be the final part of the Heresy, the Battle of Terra "only" being its pinnacle ;p That's how I see it anyway :)
I would definitely be interested in a WH40K book of an Unforgiven Black Angel Astartes living out his life under the guise of an Ogryn, having to pretend to be dumb and trying his best to cover his augmentation scars and knowledge until one day trouble finds him and cat comes out of the bag.
I just finished re reading "Descent of Angels" the other day. I would like to know what happened to librarian Zahariel. I'm hoping upon return to Caliban with Luther that he did not turn. Also, when did they write in Luther's escape?
The changling freed him shortly before the Battle on Fenris between Magnus and the furry Boys. It is mentioned in on of baldemorts Vids, Ritual of the Damned i think🤷
I love my Dark Angels, I know they are Loyal to the end, Lion’s loyalty is definitely unshakable, but Lion did make the mistake of having compassion for his brother, Lion knew of the near betrayal of Luther in the Sarosh campaign but him not just executing him on the spot for it may as well definitely changed the 1st legion forever, who knows how it would have gone down but it’s an interesting thought.
i actually think it would be pretty cool if he would forgive them. i like 40ks dark and grim setting and all, but sometimes i wish it had a little more kindness, and i know it sounds a bit weird and maybe out of place, but it could be a good contrast to the overal setting.
an awakened Lion, many a backhead slap done to many a Dark Angel, and possibly a Primarch or two. After all it's always the First's prerogative to do that to all the numbers that follow...just ask Russ and the Nighthaunter.
warhammer needs a "return to the light" story so to say. there are so many stories about loyal sons falling to chaos but we have yet to see a story about a chaos space marine understanding his predicament and trying to return to become a loyal space marine yet again or even better a full chaos warband regreting their fall to chaos and returning to the empire as a loyal warband or new chapter. The Regreting Sons.
Still not convinced... The fact that cypher is a rank not a person, the sword he carries and his actions. The fact that the Fallen were predominantly from Earth rather than Caliban. The actions of the fallen fleet in the Nexus aiding Russ? Also there are more than just the Imperium and Chaos at work during the Heresy. I think the Dark Angel story offers a tempting opportunity to revisit the pages of Rogue Trader when Space Marines existed as Imperial, Mercenary and Renegade.
Waiting for all the Siege of Terra books to come out before I dive into them. What's your thoughts on a 'The Scouring' short series? Could get The Iron Cage in there and maybe see how Guilliman implemented the Codex...
Good job those mercenary space marines orks didnt take a leading roll eg incapacitated Luther THAT would be an interesting retcon and species change faster than the emperor could cry Malcador 😂🤣 Some of the old school stuff is pretty interesting, if not a little chaotic lol, I came in on 3rd edition prior to my 1st full time job my family would “not pay that much for plastic toy soldiers” 🤷♂️ 1st GW purchase, Salamanders war on Armageddon box set Big E knows how much that would cost today but set me back £150 (weeks wages) but came with everything you could dream of to start with and I’ve not seen a box set like it since 😢 Vulkan lives 🔥✊🏿🔥
So dose any one knows what the Dark Angels official line was as to what happened to the Lion as they have been keeping the hole international conflict thinking a secret I don’t recall ever hearing it.
They have no idea, the last time they saw him was during the battle of Caliban when he went to fight Luther, when they arrived they found Luther lying on the ground crying and The Lion nowhere to be seen In the Eye of Ezekiel, a demon shows Ezekiel a vision of the fight and he sees Lion on the ground next to Luther, then Cypher comes in and approaches Lion, kneeling beside him as if listening his final words before the vision fades out
I've just looked up that question and it seems like the official version is that Caliban was claimed by the Dark Gods and Lion was pressumably killed in the conflict.
I've just finished saturnine loves it , I digress what book is next in the siege of terror? Any help would be much appreciated. And love your book break downs as someone new to the lore it really helps understand.
In the latest book, the idea "No, you loyalists need to repent because the Lion would be ashamed of you" is pretty shocking and probably hilarious for Traitors.
ASMODAI!! INTERROGATE?! OUR ASSUMTIONS ARE CONFIRMED!! WHAT?! HE HAS A SUSPICIOUS BOOK!! BOOK!! HE'S IN CAHOOTS WITH THE FALLEN!! FALLEN!! MAKE HIM REPENT!! REPEEEEEEEEEEEEENT!
luther, should have had it out in private with the lion as soon as the lion returned, demanding to know why his actions were wrong, and why he deserved to be sent home and asking, if he accepts his friends reasons, to be allowed to redeem himself in something like an ultramarines death oath.
But the Warp Storm that scattered the Fallen was because of the Dark Angels of the 40k. Cypher - let free by the Dark Angels time and time again. The Dark Angels story is far from simple when they were a legion bow 10k forward...
I fully expect that we'll be getting Primaris Terminators and they'll be coming with the Lion. Let's face it, Space Marines are bland without Terminators and the 1st Legion has always had the most iconic Terminators of all the loyalists in the lore.
Brother Ultrass, once he was called that. It was countless mortal lifetimes ago. Countless names, hundreds of cities and towns, dozens of worlds. Every thirty years he would pull up the roots he had set down and relocate. The identity he assumed had to be discarded. Yet he never forgot them. Each life he lived was spent attempting to pay a debt to humanity he may never repay. Each human settlement the would find something lacking. A faulty water filtration system here, corruption in its management there, lackluster security forces, poor soil, poor education... there was always something. He would join whatever local administration and after a decade or two he would have that settlement running better than it had ever had before. Then, he would leave. A drop in the bucket for the debt he owed but it was something. It was on the planet of Thraxx that this wayward soul would over extend his reach. The entire planet was a horrid logistical mess. This ghost, this man who was more than a man believed that just this once he could accomplish so much more if he simply wormed his way into the role of the planetary governor. It was a risk, but he felt his intentions were noble. It took decades, but soon he sat at the throne of power, Thraxx became ordered and efficient, beating like a strong vibrant heartbeat in the darkness of Imperial Space. The people loved him, his laws were just, his reforms brought hope to the masses, even the echisiarchy hailed him a new saint. The sudden arrival of the Tyranids however brought the danger he had fled for so long. while the ships and guardsmen under his command were adequately holding the line, the arrival of the Dark Angels shook him to his core. He wished to flee, but could not leave his charges. He had spat on one set of oaths, he would not do so again. This nameless man oversaw the conflict, all the while dreading the moment of victory as much as the possibility of defeat. But the faith he brought to the people spurred them to defend their home. His forces fought with a fury that Cadia would nod in approval of. The Great Devourer was repelled, and reconstruction began. His hands flew over the papers in his hands, laying down edicts and suggestions, designs for buildings and defenses, knowing what was to come. Even as he heard the sound of power armored feet marching up to his office he worked. Just one more page, one more note, one more good deed to balance out what he had been a part of on Caliban all those centuries ago... A knock on his door stopped his twin hearts, and tore his attention from his frantic labors. A humorless chuckle rose from his throat, they actually chose to knock. He laid his pen down on his desk and stood. There was no escape this time. No place to go. with the conviction of a man standing at the gallows he answered the dreadful knock, "Come in, brother. You have me at last."
I prefer the abandonment by Lion / ruination of Caliban by heavy industry as a reason for Luthor to reject the Imperium. His wish to preserve Caliban that was during his age of Knightly orders. Also Lion murdered Nemiel for being too loyal to the Emperor ... so he should stfu and apologize to Luthor LOL.
I think the Lion sent Luther back because he wanted someone he knew to be competent to take control of Caliban and fix things that the wider Imperium was screwing up, but Luthers own sense of guilt and jealousy led to his fall. He felt exiled, despite Lion placing him in perhaps the most trusted position he possibly could. He felt jealous of Lions fame and glory. He felt guilty that he felt all of that, and felt that exile was deserved. It created a massive loop of dark and depressed thoughts that ended up causing him to fall. I believe the Lion was loyal, but to a certain point, and killed Nemiel because he was blindly fanatical instead of having the sense to ask questions. Like any soldier, you must be loyal, but you must also be cognizant of certain flaws within the organization that you serve. Fanatics do not see those flaws, and have no place within a military organization (as weve seen in the "modern" 40k, where everybody is a fanatic, or through historical examples in out world) because the commit massive attrocities unquestioningly and unprovoked. Fanatics, especially in this setting, lead to entire worlds burning for no reason beyond one person looking at them funny. And while the Great Crusade was about getting all of humanity into the Imperium, they did use a lot of "hearts and minds" tactics to try to ensure compliance and loyalty, and tried to avoid utterly destroying a world simply because they could.
We betrayed nothing! We were the ones betrayed! All we did, in the name of the imperium, was fire on those traders. As punishment for attacking their favorite children, the chaos gods sucked us into their domain. There we have done our best to stay hidden, from the chaos gods and their favored children the dark Angels. That is a terrible secret the dark Angels keep. And we will be silent no more....
I’m not a fan of the implication that when the Dark Angels find a Fallen that’s laid down his weapons and armour just living a normal human life, just working, working as a bodyguard, a lone soldier, farmer or even a nomad, not worshiping CHOAS or causing trouble. That they still make him repent for his sins and betrayal and torture him to death of take him to the “Happy farm to play with other Dark Angels”. Like, if they’ve renounced their ways of thinking at the time of the betrayal and are actively just living in retirement then why do the DA have to make them “repent”. Just leave them alone and find Attias, Cypher or hell, rescue Epimethius from Abby. I’m sure a few of the fallen have become black shields for the Deathwatch though. TL:DR leave the good “fallen” trying to just live alone for bigger prey
@@timothylyons5686 Really? Alpha legion was there before the Emperor? I'm pretty sure the Cypher that isn't current Cypher was there before the Emperor. If it was Alpha, I hope they retcon that. 2 main and a third faction amongst the second faction sounds great for stories.
@@nyrukdaerog3973 read Shroud of Night by Andy Clark. In it Kassar the leader of the Alpha legion mentions that the Alpha legion have suits of Armour from all the Astartes armies going back to m the first foundings. A lot collected after the Isstvan massacres. They used them for many missions.
@@nyrukdaerog3973 the Alpha legion took the armour of the Dark Angels after the Isstvan massacres. They made their way to Caliban and waited until the Lions return. They then used the armour to start the insurrection which led to the fight between Luthor and the Lion. Read the book
Perturabo fleeced the Lion good and proper. Used the bigs guns to purge the Loyalists. The Lion must of done a Homer Simpson 'Doh!!!!!' And no mistake. Bell end.
Lion'El could have avoided this if he had just paid more attention to his homeworld and the tragedy that was unfolding there. The Imperials started immigrating to Caliban and treating the natives like the Colonial settlers treated the Native Americans. They impoverished the native people, essentially enslaved them, ruined the natural landscape with their hive cities, and destroyed their traditions and culture. By the time the old council members approached Luther to do something, people couldn't even properly bury their dead. With no word from LEJ, Luther became corrupted at that point.
I think that that is why Lion sent Luther back. Who better than the second in command to take command and fix things on the home world when the boss cant go personally? Unfortunately, it seems that either Lion didnt tell Luther this and made him feel unwanted and tossed aside, he DID tell Luther this, Luthers own guilt and jealousy ate away at him until he fell to chaos.
This is one of that moments that show what is the mining of "dark future", and one of the best exemples of ignorance and rage being the winners. Sure many of the fallen were treitors. But what of the others who simply trust there supirior words? Are they treitors? I don't think and I hope that the lion when awakes can bether judge them and take them back to the fold.
Please ignore this heretical propaganda, it only exists to undermine our strength during these troubled times! Now please report immediately to your nearest Dark Angel support contingent for a debrief .......please!
My favorite fraction. I like them much more than any other Space marine chapter. They are norę human than most, wel, humans in the imperium. I hope Lion and Luther will unite them into Legion when they return and make them Renegate fraction. And kick Asmodai in the balls for being w dick and all the ridiculous shit he is done over the years.
![ตีสิบเดย์ [FULL] | เปิดใจ "อาจารย์ เบียร์ ฅนตื่นธรรม" นักสนทนาธรรมสายดุดัน!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vqaBI_mnoDk/mqdefault.jpg)
Luther trips "I have fallen, and I choose NOT to get up!"
Asmodai wishes a word with you, brother.
INTERROGATE!?
Asmodai can probe me all day for my dirty secrets uwu.
“Harder daddy.”
@@sussy_6998 Brother, should... should we just give this ones the emperor’s mercy. Slaanesh has tainted this one and it’s kinda nasty
M A K E T H E M
R E P E N T
A S M O D A I
@@johnzarella7013 give him the emperor's wrath....
*Commissar's looking at a suspiciously talkative Orgyn*
When the ogryn whispers "hydra dominatus"
“Dusting off your codexes” *Thousand Sons players are inside the room, angry* xD
Just put the dust inside an emertical sealed armor, writes some runes and Voilá you have your own rubric marine
The Audiobook "Master of the First" shows exactly where the true Fallen come from. Astellan shows himself to not truly loyal to anyone, but himself.
The Lion and Russ are the two primarchs that would never turn.
When his father calls him, the Lion shall return.
as would Russ
dont forget dorn
@@smilingbandit6900 Actually, Dorn had a talk with Malcador in which he confessed that he was afraid that if he knew the full reasoning behind Horus's betrayal, he could be convinced as well. To which Malcador responds that understanding Chaos is madness (or something along those lines).
@@smilingbandit6900, Dorn was true, he just may not be alive.
@@Matihood1 Mal also said that one of their brothers know about chaos (Lion probably)
They need to bring the lion back already, Peterbo needs to be addressed
Too true.
just imagine the eye roll of the chaos Gods,as their every champion is like"omg wtf am i doing,plz kill me"the 3 Gods ll be like"ffs not him 2" and tzeench be like"everything goes just...as....planned"
I wonder why doesn't anyone refers to how Luther managed to strike Lion? Lion isn't just anybody... remember that even Horus is afraid of him and tries hard to keep Lion away from Terra while he encounters the Emperor.
You should all refer and not forget to mention that as Lion fought Luther and despite all the gifts and power Chao's gods granted to Luther couldn't overcome Lions swordsmanship. It was a long duel and then Lion saw an opening that would have given a death blow to Luther but the thought of his dear friend dead didn't let his blade to strike and that fraction of a second that mercy overtook Lions thought Luther found his own opening and stroke hard on Lion.
As Lion was falling Luther understood what happened... that he had given an opening to Lion and that Lion didn't strike him. Only then he saw what was happening. That he had betrayed Lion and Chao's had twisted him to do so. It was then that he collapsed, mentally wounded next to Lion after realising the mind blowing truth.
Always saw their fight as a parallel to what happened to the Emperor and Horus, a mirror of sorts. The Lion is like is father in many ways. The only difference is that Luther did'nt die and he has a terrible awareness of his crimes as a reward.
because all of the primarchs are retarded. even russ hesitated in his moment to kill horus.
@@texasallstar6969 more the writers just know one idea to create tension in a fight
@@texasallstar6969 sure, one of their only displays of humanity makes them retarded.
Obviously, killing not only your brother, but one of the few people you can really relate, is one of the most normal human things.
I would argue that killing their friends and family without a flinch would make them more retarded.
@@Nemoknowsnothing 100%
The Emperor fighting Horus; The Lion fighting Luther.
If the Lion had the strength and will to overcome Luther, would he have destroyed him as utterly as the Emperor did Horus? Conversely, if the Emperor didn't destroy Horus, would Horus have laid down his arms and spared his father as Luther did the Lion?
What we know for sure is that in both cases, the dark powers fled Horus and Luther at the last moment; offering each a period of sobriety with which they were horrified at their own handiwork.
I'd love to hear a conversation, even a telepathic one, between The Lion and his father. Both were directly betrayed by someone they cared for. Perhaps they could help each other heal?
A thought had occured to me. Would it be possible for the Emperor to effectively transfer his being into the body of one of his sons? If it were possible, who do you think he would choose, and why?
It would have to be Magnus. The golden throne would tear apart the body of any but the mightiest of psykers. Even Malcador only lasted a few hours.
Lion did get the opportunity. In their fight Lion had an opening and upper hand, it was stated he could have finished Luther then and there but chose not to. Luther was not only his best friend but his father figure, and he had already lost his real dad which left him utterly devastated, he didnt want to lose another, so he let his guard down and as he did Luther attacked him and wounded him.
Just started a dark angels army. Really looking forward to more story
Welcome neophyte.
@@Dreadbringer wonderful calico
Wolflord Rho: Today we're talking about the "fallen"
Me a young pup marine - why am i hearing RRRREEEEPPPPPPPEEEEENNNNNNNTTTTTTT in the background
Luthor was left to purge the Terran Dark Angels because the Lion didn't trust them.
Those responsible for opening fire on the fleet were Alpha Legion in Dark Angels armour.
That could be except for the fact the AL could never infiltrate the DA, not even Alpharius could completely figure out their internal hierarchies and secret codes
@@Sigismund697 they didn't need to. Based on the film 'Battle of the Bulge' small units of Alpha legion were infiltrated into the Dark Angels.
Big E's last forgotten words: don't forget to enable audio.....
So mysterious, and the Fallen will eat something that isn't sand.
I just feel bad for the common folk of Kaliban getting blasted away.
After reading Luther: First of the Fallen, I find it both tragic and kind of amusingly ironic that Luther did more for Terra than the Lion. Seriously, his dealing with Corswain and encouragement sends Corswain to Terra...and using the idea that 'I know the Lion, he will be heading there' to manipulate him is fascinating as well.
Did Luther actually think the Lion would be there? Regardless, he talked the DA (some loyal, some Fallen) to the Siege, while the Lion gave up in what I would say is his most dishonorable, pessimistic state.
A wonderful leason in ego and humility
Lol what a massive load of horse crap 🤣 Someone needs to read up on a whole variety of books.. your claims are not only wrong but baseless, its not like there have been 15-20+ books that cover these events and more, which all tie in together. Also you need reading comprehension classes, if thats what you gather from that book. Remember, Luther is a master manipulator, yet you are taking every word of his for value.
Since you have zero clue about these other books that actually answer your questions, i will list three of them, in them you will get your answer: Ruinstorm, Dreadwing, and Mortis (new siege of Terra book). To claim Luther did more for Terra is the most idiotic comment to date. What Lion did in the rangdan xenocides alone, far outweighs what anyone else has done. Also he was the main reason behind sang and his legion surviving the Ruinstorm and sang being able to reach Terra in time for its defence. It was thanks to Lion that Corswain could even reach Terra in time to activate the astronomicon, by splitning up his forces and making Corswain the seneschal.
@@awarhammering3955 superior nerd alert
@@awarhammering3955 For Terra, Luther advised Corswain to travel there and gave him Vassago (explaining his presence in Mortis and developing him from AOC). 10,000 DA Astartes were present at Terra, and none of that was to do with the Lion. Corswain found the Astronomican dark, he was guided by a seer. He was moved by Luthor's words, and the Lion sadly saw things as lost.
Rather than getting triggered, consider that the Lion not being perfect, and his pessimism overriding his ability and dignity is clearly visible as a plot element when contrasting Heresy stories with Lord of the First, and pride being the fatal flaw of the 1st is a gigantic part of their story. Dreadwing has this stated directly by Holguin.
Reading those novels gives the insight that the Lion is incredibly powerful among Primarchs, and so is deceived into often being absent. The Fallen are capable of good, possessing qualities offsetting the Loyalist brutality and obsession clouding their view. Either a kneejerk reaction, or blindness to the pride of the DA being their weakness while unlikely help is their strength is making you complain unnecessarily.
Ahh when acceptable mutations where a much bigger idea in GW lore made it easier to hide a space marine in plain sight.
Hi Wolf Lord Rho ! Excellent video and narration ! For your reflexion about the timeline, having started WH40K int he 90's with the V2, I still own this revered tome which is the Codex Angels of Death. I always considered that the lore at this time was not entirely clear and the terms used where to be taken with caution and "flexibility". It was the transition period between the original lore of Rogue Trader and the much deeper, complex and grimdark lore we know now. For instance, space marines could equip shuriken pistols in Rogue Trader, and there where instances of mixed people, half eldar, half human, and so on. When they reworked all this, a lot of terme where used more loosely, without much overthinking about the when and where. So I remember that the codex said that Lio El Jonson was angered and struck down to see the Heresy had grown on his own planet after he crossed the galaxy to purge it after the Defeat on Terra. So, yes, technically they admit in the same sentence that the Lion was engaged in the Scouring AND still place it within the Horus Heresy. We could simply consider the Scouring to be the final part of the Heresy, the Battle of Terra "only" being its pinnacle ;p
That's how I see it anyway :)
BTW man, I'm not seeing this video in my notifications, it shows up in my recommended videos though, so I got that going for me which is nice.
Asmodaiiii!!
Interogate!
Hes got a suspicious book
Book?!!
He's in kahoots with the fallen!!
THe fallen?!!
Make him repent!
Repeeeeeeennnt!!!
Imagine the Lion and the Wolf combined in arms! The Emperor Protects indeed!
Luther: my son-father, im so sorry
Okay great, but where does Cypher fit into this?
Zahariel
Great videos! I’m a huge warhammer40 fan and you’ve put me on to some good reads thanks!
The 3rd-ed Chaos Codex is one of my favorite just sit down and reads.
Do a collab with Morgoth!! He's started reviewing 40k with a look at Horus Rising 😁
Hello there folks.
Or arch he made i think past raven gard novel
I hope for the love of the emperor that you are not going to just tell us what Astelan dreamt together in his 10k years as a traitor.
I would definitely be interested in a WH40K book of an Unforgiven Black Angel Astartes living out his life under the guise of an Ogryn, having to pretend to be dumb and trying his best to cover his augmentation scars and knowledge until one day trouble finds him and cat comes out of the bag.
I just finished re reading "Descent of Angels" the other day. I would like to know what happened to librarian Zahariel. I'm hoping upon return to Caliban with Luther that he did not turn.
Also, when did they write in Luther's escape?
the answer is in "fallen angels"
The changling freed him shortly before the Battle on Fenris between Magnus and the furry Boys. It is mentioned in on of baldemorts Vids, Ritual of the Damned i think🤷
I just did as well, zahariel and nemiel, im pretty sure they turn, being as how close they are to luther.
The warhammer 40k universe already has too great a calamity lurking around every corner its time for the primmarchs to return
I love my Dark Angels, I know they are Loyal to the end, Lion’s loyalty is definitely unshakable, but Lion did make the mistake of having compassion for his brother, Lion knew of the near betrayal of Luther in the Sarosh campaign but him not just executing him on the spot for it may as well definitely changed the 1st legion forever, who knows how it would have gone down but it’s an interesting thought.
I can't wait for The Lion to wake and start hunting The Fallen.
i actually think it would be pretty cool if he would forgive them.
i like 40ks dark and grim setting and all, but sometimes i wish it had a little more kindness, and i know it sounds a bit weird and maybe out of place, but it could be a good contrast to the overal setting.
I think Lion will hunt those that are with chaos but those who realised that it was wrong he will leave alone or take them into the legion
an awakened Lion, many a backhead slap done to many a Dark Angel, and possibly a Primarch or two. After all it's always the First's prerogative to do that to all the numbers that follow...just ask Russ and the Nighthaunter.
A wolf lord rho episode about my faction (fallen dark angels) i better find a shadow in the corner to watch this , in case any chaplains are about ..
Khm
@@RADINNS khm?
@@themachine7534 yeah like caughin in matter I am here, pointing to your comment
"Dusting of your codex's..." how brave of you to assume I own a codex
It's not a legal document, if it gets the point of what I'm talking about across I don't care that it's wrong
@@namenull7399 Big pp energy
@@tanjaeubanks So his text is saying it wrong..........clearly there’s some warp nonsense going here and it’s not him.
Has Guilliman ever been on the Rock? Because Primarchs can sense each other. Or I remember reading something like that.
HE’S IN CAHOOTS WITH THE FALLEN! ASMODAI!?
REPPPPPPPPPENT!!!
Never knew chaos spacemarines could be so cool
I think Rho needs to read the newest Russ Primarch novel, that's what I think as some of this is in that...
warhammer needs a "return to the light" story so to say. there are so many stories about loyal sons falling to chaos but we have yet to see a story about a chaos space marine understanding his predicament and trying to return to become a loyal space marine yet again or even better a full chaos warband regreting their fall to chaos and returning to the empire as a loyal warband or new chapter. The Regreting Sons.
I Cato Sicarius, would never fall because I am a Ultramarine, pathetic
Ha! Amateur's.
When you gonna cross the Rubicon Primaris Cato?
Sorry mate, but the Ultramarines have had some of their members turn to chaos, not many, but a few.
@@nicholascerillo4000 Not many, nearly an entire successor chapter fell to chaos. Black Templars on the other hand....
I Cato Sicarius, Think that the Silver Templars are better then Dorns angry boys.
Still not convinced... The fact that cypher is a rank not a person, the sword he carries and his actions. The fact that the Fallen were predominantly from Earth rather than Caliban. The actions of the fallen fleet in the Nexus aiding Russ? Also there are more than just the Imperium and Chaos at work during the Heresy. I think the Dark Angel story offers a tempting opportunity to revisit the pages of Rogue Trader when Space Marines existed as Imperial, Mercenary and Renegade.
Waiting for all the Siege of Terra books to come out before I dive into them.
What's your thoughts on a 'The Scouring' short series?
Could get The Iron Cage in there and maybe see how Guilliman implemented the Codex...
Pretty sure the scouring is the next series after the siege
Good job those mercenary space marines orks didnt take a leading roll eg incapacitated Luther THAT would be an interesting retcon and species change faster than the emperor could cry Malcador 😂🤣
Some of the old school stuff is pretty interesting, if not a little chaotic lol, I came in on 3rd edition prior to my 1st full time job my family would “not pay that much for plastic toy soldiers” 🤷♂️ 1st GW purchase, Salamanders war on Armageddon box set Big E knows how much that would cost today but set me back £150 (weeks wages) but came with everything you could dream of to start with and I’ve not seen a box set like it since 😢
Vulkan lives 🔥✊🏿🔥
The fallen Loofah.. how can we cleanse our past now?
So dose any one knows what the Dark Angels official line was as to what happened to the Lion as they have been keeping the hole international conflict thinking a secret I don’t recall ever hearing it.
They have no idea, the last time they saw him was during the battle of Caliban when he went to fight Luther, when they arrived they found Luther lying on the ground crying and The Lion nowhere to be seen
In the Eye of Ezekiel, a demon shows Ezekiel a vision of the fight and he sees Lion on the ground next to Luther, then Cypher comes in and approaches Lion, kneeling beside him as if listening his final words before the vision fades out
I've just looked up that question and it seems like the official version is that Caliban was claimed by the Dark Gods and Lion was pressumably killed in the conflict.
8:42 "...major psychic displays of power being on display."
_hmm_
_yes_
_the floor here is made of floor_
"Now we all know the story of the fallen..."
Dark Angels will have a seizure at listening this intro rofl
I've just finished saturnine loves it , I digress what book is next in the siege of terror? Any help would be much appreciated. And love your book break downs as someone new to the lore it really helps understand.
Fury of magnus is the next book
@@bobakrabii6220 thanks a lot appreciate it.
#TheFallenDidNothingWrong
Yes they did!
In the latest book, the idea "No, you loyalists need to repent because the Lion would be ashamed of you" is pretty shocking and probably hilarious for Traitors.
True after all #BlameMagnus
Pay no attention citizen, I was a really big child and played all the sports... Also I've been manager of this Wal-Mart for 474 years
Please stop making me feel old...
My 2nd edition Ultramarine Codex is still the best lore packed codex I ever read. imo.
Good old days.
Have there been more books put out about the siege? I'm currently finishing up Saturnine.
ASMODAI!!
INTERROGATE?!
OUR ASSUMTIONS ARE CONFIRMED!!
WHAT?!
HE HAS A SUSPICIOUS BOOK!!
BOOK!!
HE'S IN CAHOOTS WITH THE FALLEN!!
FALLEN!!
MAKE HIM REPENT!!
REPEEEEEEEEEEEEENT!
luther, should have had it out in private with the lion as soon as the lion returned, demanding to know why his actions were wrong, and why he deserved to be sent home and asking, if he accepts his friends reasons, to be allowed to redeem himself in something like an ultramarines death oath.
But the Warp Storm that scattered the Fallen was because of the Dark Angels of the 40k. Cypher - let free by the Dark Angels time and time again. The Dark Angels story is far from simple when they were a legion bow 10k forward...
Yes
I fully expect that we'll be getting Primaris Terminators and they'll be coming with the Lion. Let's face it, Space Marines are bland without Terminators and the 1st Legion has always had the most iconic Terminators of all the loyalists in the lore.
AAAASMOOODII
sees title...
ASMODAI!!!!!
The part of some realising they wrong is right as there is a mission in battlefleet gothic armada 2 some of them escaped in ships
Brother Ultrass, once he was called that.
It was countless mortal lifetimes ago. Countless names, hundreds of cities and towns, dozens of worlds. Every thirty years he would pull up the roots he had set down and relocate. The identity he assumed had to be discarded. Yet he never forgot them. Each life he lived was spent attempting to pay a debt to humanity he may never repay. Each human settlement the would find something lacking. A faulty water filtration system here, corruption in its management there, lackluster security forces, poor soil, poor education... there was always something. He would join whatever local administration and after a decade or two he would have that settlement running better than it had ever had before. Then, he would leave. A drop in the bucket for the debt he owed but it was something.
It was on the planet of Thraxx that this wayward soul would over extend his reach.
The entire planet was a horrid logistical mess. This ghost, this man who was more than a man believed that just this once he could accomplish so much more if he simply wormed his way into the role of the planetary governor. It was a risk, but he felt his intentions were noble. It took decades, but soon he sat at the throne of power, Thraxx became ordered and efficient, beating like a strong vibrant heartbeat in the darkness of Imperial Space. The people loved him, his laws were just, his reforms brought hope to the masses, even the echisiarchy hailed him a new saint.
The sudden arrival of the Tyranids however brought the danger he had fled for so long. while the ships and guardsmen under his command were adequately holding the line, the arrival of the Dark Angels shook him to his core. He wished to flee, but could not leave his charges. He had spat on one set of oaths, he would not do so again. This nameless man oversaw the conflict, all the while dreading the moment of victory as much as the possibility of defeat. But the faith he brought to the people spurred them to defend their home. His forces fought with a fury that Cadia would nod in approval of. The Great Devourer was repelled, and reconstruction began. His hands flew over the papers in his hands, laying down edicts and suggestions, designs for buildings and defenses, knowing what was to come. Even as he heard the sound of power armored feet marching up to his office he worked. Just one more page, one more note, one more good deed to balance out what he had been a part of on Caliban all those centuries ago...
A knock on his door stopped his twin hearts, and tore his attention from his frantic labors. A humorless chuckle rose from his throat, they actually chose to knock. He laid his pen down on his desk and stood. There was no escape this time. No place to go. with the conviction of a man standing at the gallows he answered the dreadful knock, "Come in, brother. You have me at last."
When the lion sword is reforged all will be forgiven 🗡️
Some might say the fallen were the real loyalists. After all the "Lion" drug his heels waiting to see who would win.
Never Forget. Never forgive
Forget Nothing. Forgive No One.
FYI, it’s “wreak havoc” not “wreck havoc.” Wreak is pronounced like “reek.”
Report to the Inquisitor for questioning.
Do Dark Angles still hate Space Wolves ?
I prefer the abandonment by Lion / ruination of Caliban by heavy industry as a reason for Luthor to reject the Imperium. His wish to preserve Caliban that was during his age of Knightly orders.
Also Lion murdered Nemiel for being too loyal to the Emperor ... so he should stfu and apologize to Luthor LOL.
I think the Lion sent Luther back because he wanted someone he knew to be competent to take control of Caliban and fix things that the wider Imperium was screwing up, but Luthers own sense of guilt and jealousy led to his fall. He felt exiled, despite Lion placing him in perhaps the most trusted position he possibly could. He felt jealous of Lions fame and glory. He felt guilty that he felt all of that, and felt that exile was deserved. It created a massive loop of dark and depressed thoughts that ended up causing him to fall. I believe the Lion was loyal, but to a certain point, and killed Nemiel because he was blindly fanatical instead of having the sense to ask questions. Like any soldier, you must be loyal, but you must also be cognizant of certain flaws within the organization that you serve. Fanatics do not see those flaws, and have no place within a military organization (as weve seen in the "modern" 40k, where everybody is a fanatic, or through historical examples in out world) because the commit massive attrocities unquestioningly and unprovoked. Fanatics, especially in this setting, lead to entire worlds burning for no reason beyond one person looking at them funny. And while the Great Crusade was about getting all of humanity into the Imperium, they did use a lot of "hearts and minds" tactics to try to ensure compliance and loyalty, and tried to avoid utterly destroying a world simply because they could.
Fallin', but at what cost?
I want to know what was trusted to Cypher in the Lions last moments.
Besides the Lion's sword who knows.
@@markmueller-rougier3098 we'll just have to wait
We betrayed nothing! We were the ones betrayed! All we did, in the name of the imperium, was fire on those traders.
As punishment for attacking their favorite children, the chaos gods sucked us into their domain.
There we have done our best to stay hidden, from the chaos gods and their favored children the dark Angels.
That is a terrible secret the dark Angels keep. And we will be silent no more....
Me and my watcher in the dark , are ... watching you from the dark ...
Zahariel i remember...
I’m not a fan of the implication that when the Dark Angels find a Fallen that’s laid down his weapons and armour just living a normal human life, just working, working as a bodyguard, a lone soldier, farmer or even a nomad, not worshiping CHOAS or causing trouble. That they still make him repent for his sins and betrayal and torture him to death of take him to the “Happy farm to play with other Dark Angels”. Like, if they’ve renounced their ways of thinking at the time of the betrayal and are actively just living in retirement then why do the DA have to make them “repent”. Just leave them alone and find Attias, Cypher or hell, rescue Epimethius from Abby. I’m sure a few of the fallen have become black shields for the Deathwatch though.
TL:DR leave the good “fallen” trying to just live alone for bigger prey
YES! Absolutely! I agree with you! 🖤
Bad influence had gotten to them, but they saw the error of their mistake. Leave those nice poor fellas alone.
I mean if they were gonna leave them in peace I don’t think they’d write about it.
Wasn't there 3 groups? Lion, Luther, and another mysterious group with not-Cypher Cypher?
The third mysterious group was Alpha Legion.
@@timothylyons5686 Really? Alpha legion was there before the Emperor? I'm pretty sure the Cypher that isn't current Cypher was there before the Emperor. If it was Alpha, I hope they retcon that. 2 main and a third faction amongst the second faction sounds great for stories.
@@nyrukdaerog3973 read Shroud of Night by Andy Clark.
In it Kassar the leader of the Alpha legion mentions that the Alpha legion have suits of Armour from all the Astartes armies going back to m the first foundings. A lot collected after the Isstvan massacres.
They used them for many missions.
@@timothylyons5686 that doesn't explain how they were on Caliban before the Dark Angels and Emperor were, which that cypher group was.
@@nyrukdaerog3973 the Alpha legion took the armour of the Dark Angels after the Isstvan massacres.
They made their way to Caliban and waited until the Lions return.
They then used the armour to start the insurrection which led to the fight between Luthor and the Lion.
Read the book
Who's "Loofer"? :p
Once a traitor, always a traitor.
🔥🎸🔥
Perturabo fleeced the Lion good and proper. Used the bigs guns to purge the Loyalists. The Lion must of done a Homer Simpson 'Doh!!!!!' And no mistake. Bell end.
When u gonna talk about the yellow king up in here up in here
Who me
ASMODAI!!!!!!!!!!
Wait there is Dark Angels traito.....
Your names Tim.
Lion'El could have avoided this if he had just paid more attention to his homeworld and the tragedy that was unfolding there. The Imperials started immigrating to Caliban and treating the natives like the Colonial settlers treated the Native Americans. They impoverished the native people, essentially enslaved them, ruined the natural landscape with their hive cities, and destroyed their traditions and culture. By the time the old council members approached Luther to do something, people couldn't even properly bury their dead. With no word from LEJ, Luther became corrupted at that point.
I think that that is why Lion sent Luther back. Who better than the second in command to take command and fix things on the home world when the boss cant go personally? Unfortunately, it seems that either Lion didnt tell Luther this and made him feel unwanted and tossed aside, he DID tell Luther this, Luthers own guilt and jealousy ate away at him until he fell to chaos.
Asmodai is about to make you repent.
This is one of that moments that show what is the mining of "dark future", and one of the best exemples of ignorance and rage being the winners. Sure many of the fallen were treitors. But what of the others who simply trust there supirior words? Are they treitors? I don't think and I hope that the lion when awakes can bether judge them and take them back to the fold.
Always thought the Dark Angels came across as arses...
The Fallen...puff, I think u means the rightful sons of Caliban
Please ignore this heretical propaganda, it only exists to undermine our strength during these troubled times! Now please report immediately to your nearest Dark Angel support contingent for a debrief
.......please!
Interrogate?
Luther did nothing wrong
My favorite fraction. I like them much more than any other Space marine chapter. They are norę human than most, wel, humans in the imperium. I hope Lion and Luther will unite them into Legion when they return and make them Renegate fraction. And kick Asmodai in the balls for being w dick and all the ridiculous shit he is done over the years.
I still don’t trust the DA.
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