It's absolutely incredible nowadays to see such a calm conversation on stereotypes and Political Correctness. At points, they even seemed to reach a consensus!
The 70s seems like a comic golden age- Monty Python, Dad's Army, Morecambe and Wise, Rising Damp, Porridge, Fawlty Towers (Are You Being Served was naff)- then Only Fools and Horses, Red Dwarf, Black Adder were very good, I thought. Stewart Lee provides something quite rare and interesting I think.
Borat was a mockery of western stereotypes of middle easterners. He was parodying how that culture is perceived and exploited people's ignorance for comedy. He was making a statement. GOD FUCKING DAMN IT people should just know this by now.
True, but sometimes it is worth asking if everybody watching sees it that way, and if not, can it be damaging even if it is unintentional? It’s a fair question to ask I’d say.
@DnB and Psy Production I’m not claiming to be superior but if you look at the clear outcome, it’s not as if the majority of the audience took it as a mockery of western perceptions of the east
No, it's actually wonderfuly refreshing to see someone on the Internet, let alone TH-cam, being thoughtful enough to consider and give a coherent response to the matter at hand. These things so often turn into a barrage of ad-hominem insult slinging matches. In a way, your personal conduct here, seems to deconstruct my point about people willing to leave themselves open to be challenged!
@DnB and Psy Production Notably when the same interviewer interviewed Ben Shapiro. What was meant to be an interview were someone was given the chance to address their harshest criticisms, because Ben was too sensitive it turned into a argument. Political commentators of today are too polarised.
The Labour stereotype of the duffel coated Socialist Worker selling geography teacher has gone, says Andrew Neil in 2005 ..... Ten years on and it's back.
SBC was satirizing stereotypes. That was the entire humor for me, that people would buy such obvious nonsense was what made me laugh, so much so that the people of Kazakhstan complaining that he got it wrong was actually funnier for than the actual character!
Co-creater of Alan Partridge? Is that right? I thought it was Armando Ianucci, Steve Coogan and David Schneider. I know he wrote for the Day to Day along with Richard Herring but I didn't think he wrote for 'Alan Partridge' or could be credited for the creation of his character (though I might be wrong)
How I Escaped My Certain Fate is quite cheap now on amazon, as well as being a work of honest genius. As a lifelong bandit of digital media, the great work that is Milder Comedian is the only thing that has shamed me into actualy buying a dvd, and the fact that his other shows are not easily torrentable means that at some point I'l probly buy them too. Cheeky bastard.
Saying he respects the show for having found a new batch of stereotypes doesn't necessarily mean he enjoys the show, just that he can show respect where respect is due. I wouldn't be surprised if he rips into it somewhere, but it almost seems too easy a target. Describing it as formulaic almost makes me think he would be less likely to attack it, though, because playing with or making references to 'comedy formulas' is a pretty frequent part of Lee's standup.
At the risk of indulging in youtube comment discussions, I differ with your perception of Borat. (I think). Whilst overly long, I found it masterful not only comedicly but also in it's surgical analysis of modern human life/awareness. The film did not look to propogate stereotypes in my view, but to turn them around. I see you've had this conversation already.
I beleive that you have challenged my views surrounding this particular film, and it's interesting to see someone elses take on a something that has been covered in controversy. I can see that you obviously think that I have some kind of 'I'm better than everyone', self righteous issues, but I really am just trying to understand and empathise with every view point, regardless of what I personally think. Also I take it that you don't like 'borat'? Haha (just to get that totally straight)
I hope people don't lose their sense of humor. I agree that racism is terrible and that it can be a somewhat murky area, where comedy ends and it begins to be rude. I personally though, think that stereotypes can be hilarious, even (and sometimes especially) if they are about my society or cultural group.
06:54 "National stereotypes are dangerous because we live in a multi-cultural country." That doesn't make sense. Surely that negates any truth of a stereotype and reduces it to merely a funny concept. However, If think what he meant to say was that: For politicians it is dangerous to make such stereotypical assumptions about voters and the society for which they are trying to govern.
@ZZKe7 although it's probably a safe assumption since Little Britain lacks the ability to move beyond stereotypes - it doesn't have actual "characters"
***** It's a good joke. Here's another one: 90's eskimo face has let himself go. I don't think a million people watch Stewart Lee. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, who cares? For those unaware of the "in joke", they will have to get in on it. Otherwise, it's funny to those of us who know. It's got nothing to do with originality, the whole point of the joke is that some people get it, and others don't. There is nothing stupid about the joke, you've just heard it so often you've become jaded. Go sink into your shit nostalgia for a TV show that's gone to shit.
***** I never meant to try and be ingenious, I was making a joke that the community of Stewart Lee's audience will get. Are you saying SL doesn't look like Morrissey? Are you saying I was trying to be funny by saying he looks like someone he doesn't? Why would someone do that? That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. You're fucking boring me now.
well alot of the spaniards I knew in Britain loved that show, thats just my personal and real experience, not a questionable media report- maybe some were though, they shouldve done a poll. Some people are offended by everything in fairness. I strongly doubt the average spaniard even in Spain gave a toss!
@baffo27 Google it. It was a popular sketch show about 5 years ago from Matt Lucas and David Walliams. Had lots of stereotypes of Brits, such as the 'chav' Vicky Pollard ("Yeah but no but yeah but no but").
the point is that, Borat was issued on general release with the full awareness that a vast majority of its intended audience already possessed the same distorted stereotype of the world, which the film only further sought to propagate. If this weren't true, the creators surely would have had a blank slate to work from. Why weren't the Kazakhs portrayed as some green-skinned, cloud-dwelling, fantastical super-beings?
In a nutshell - If social and moral norms (which affects ow we view ourselves and others) is a relative phenomenon, then surely, the only 'fixed' (albeit paradoxical) rule we can hope to have is to understand the very real prospect the fallibility of our own values. As a film, I just feel Borat seems to entrench these beliefs, rather than challenge them - regardless of which ideological starting point you're coming from. And rather frustratingly, that very entrenchment also applies to me.
I once read a book called the grand tour by Christopher Hippert. It's basically a book that points out that the people of Europe even 300 years ago lived up to their stereotypes. As long as the sixteenth century travelers were describing the Italians as voluble, unreliable and hopelessly corrupt, the Germans as gluttonous, the Swiss as irritatingly officious and tidy, and the French as being, well, French. Not relevant to the discussion maybe, but hoped people would find it interesting.
@Clembo Prometheus gave us fire right? Its a useful gift, without it we wouldn't be able to...um....put a giant cross on the lawn of people different from us and set it alight.
Borat was a brilliant comedy character that exposed OTHER people's prejudices and made the assumption that all great comedians do, like Lee, that their audience is smart enough to realize that, sadly it's rarely the case. Little Britain was original in its first series, maybe the second at a push but after that it was extremely lazy and repetitive. Can't recall much stereotyping though merely portraying individuals within British society that do exist but we'd rather not talk about them.
Barthes wrote in 1967 about the death of the author. The interpretation no longer belongs to the writer. It may seem obvious to us because we're more familiar with the tropes he's lampooning, but Cohen has failed to express that same irony to a larger audience.
What I'm saying is that such people may well be watching it for the knob gags, but at the same time, their generalised and ill-conceived preconceptions are to them, seemingly being validated and reinforced by the film. Where the moral justification argument for Borat falls down, is due to the fact that, having watched the film, nobody leaves with their own personal views challenged to the point of invoking a change in attitudes.
I totally see what you are saying, so what party do you fall into? Is there some middle ground to your spectrum of audience response? Would you agree that 'Borat' relies on prejudice and misconceptions to achieve 'cheap' laughs at someone elses expense? I'm just trying to get an idea of what your personal views are. But I don't think it give people licence to 'look down' on those who don't seem to be able to self criticise.
What's objectionable about stereotypes is not their mere existence but the way in which they are sometimes used to completely reduce a distinctive individual or group to that stereotype in people's minds, and it is even more objectionable when the reductive label is both damaging and misleading, for example when a stable, law-abiding Scotsman is publicly portrayed as a violent homeless alcoholic. The example of Tory Boy William Hague is not like this because it is damaging and wholly accurate.
Poor Stewart, he looks like he's come direct form a very long week at the Edinburgh fringe - i bet he'd rather have gone to bed than do a late-night tv programme :)
That's sort of what I meant, he plays with formulas where as shows like Little Britain stick to one rigidly, relying on the public's affection for their characters to want to see them over and over again. But yeah, see what you're saying about only praising one aspect of LB. But he does suggest that there are other "good things". I guess I just see it as a low form of comedy so a comic I like praising it at all annoyed me. I accept that's reactionary though!
Four people talking about a delicate subject for nearly eight minutes, only one puts their foot in it and has to be steered away from what they were saying. I wish I was surprised.
Stewart Lee the comedian for people who think they are a lot more intelligent than they actually are. You know the thinking persons comedian. Doesn't tell those obvious laugh out loud jokes.
My god stew had no idea, Borat is showing the stereotype of AMERICANS and the way they might think about an unknown middle east country, Kazakhstan, they all got wooshed so hard
@Replay107 But does your audience know that the material is intentionally ridiculous, or are you just giving them confirmation of the ridiculous stereotypes they believe in?
I like Stewart Lee because he gives it to you straight like pear cider that's made from 100% pear.
Yeah but KD Lang has let herself go.
100% pear!
GREAT!
@@josephcostello837 one MASSIVE pear! Imagine that!!
Pear
"... but a self-styled stereotype can help you become a public personality."
narrated over footage of the guy who would milk it all the way to #10
I think describring Ratko Mladic's public perception as a self-styled stereotype is rather cynical.
"I've taped it"
My God.
2:26 Lee calling out Nestlé's human rights atrocities 15 years ago
Wow, this conversation is so naughties BBC.
Love Stewart Lee.
He gets in his usual dig of Jim Davidson here
It's absolutely incredible nowadays to see such a calm conversation on stereotypes and Political Correctness. At points, they even seemed to reach a consensus!
"I think that's new labours great loss" yes
All this talk about stereotypes, I say just give it to us straight, like a pear cider made from 100% pear.
6:52 Stewart Lee's cold and queasy gaze of barely-masked discomfort.
Lee has two settings: laughing and non-laughing, and no transition between them
6:13 particularly. I did laugh after reading your comment and then seeing that bit, I must admit.
The 70s seems like a comic golden age- Monty Python, Dad's Army, Morecambe and Wise, Rising Damp, Porridge, Fawlty Towers (Are You Being Served was naff)- then Only Fools and Horses, Red Dwarf, Black Adder were very good, I thought. Stewart Lee provides something quite rare and interesting I think.
Natmanprime I have always spoke like that. It's not an affectation. 🙂 I was born up north and grew up down south.
@Natmanprime He's from Solihull
was about to say this, he's from Solihull and that's not an affectation, that's how they speak.
I like Stewart Lee's voice.
I like just his trousers
It’s suited for nature documentaries
You know what Diane Abbott wants? The moon on a stick.
Borat was a mockery of western stereotypes of middle easterners. He was parodying how that culture is perceived and exploited people's ignorance for comedy. He was making a statement.
GOD FUCKING DAMN IT people should just know this by now.
True, but sometimes it is worth asking if everybody watching sees it that way, and if not, can it be damaging even if it is unintentional? It’s a fair question to ask I’d say.
but thick people don't get that.
Yea I agree. But the issue is, outcome based. Are the mass populace smart enough to make the distinction?
@DnB and Psy Production I’m not claiming to be superior but if you look at the clear outcome, it’s not as if the majority of the audience took it as a mockery of western perceptions of the east
I guess that's the genius really, it can work on both levels and had a greater target market
I love the image of the BBC legal team spitting out their 11 o'clock coffee : "Andrew, stop this bitch - now!"
No, it's actually wonderfuly refreshing to see someone on the Internet, let alone TH-cam, being thoughtful enough to consider and give a coherent response to the matter at hand.
These things so often turn into a barrage of ad-hominem insult slinging matches.
In a way, your personal conduct here, seems to deconstruct my point about people willing to leave themselves open to be challenged!
" it's political correctness gone vague "
Stewart Lee's imaginary black wife has materialized!
97channel not like his white wife, who’s a drunken violent harridan, he won’t negotiate with her
Not at all like he described.
Genius from his Irish male wife 🇮🇪
Wow...everything seems so pleasant back then. All smilie and happy
@DnB and Psy Production Notably when the same interviewer interviewed Ben Shapiro. What was meant to be an interview were someone was given the chance to address their harshest criticisms, because Ben was too sensitive it turned into a argument. Political commentators of today are too polarised.
"You've got to get the RIGHT stereotype." Indeed, Ken. Indeed.
wonderful.
That is the most hilarious comment on TH-cam that I've read in ages! It's delightfully irony-filled!
?
Who is Lee's tailor? Absolutely exquisite cut!
That suit was cut by Hawkes of Saville Row
Ainsley Harriet has let himself go
'The whole notion of what's politically correct is really vague now'.
Looks DIRECTLY at Diane Abbott.
Doesn't stop looking.
The Labour stereotype of the duffel coated Socialist Worker selling geography teacher has gone, says Andrew Neil in 2005 .....
Ten years on and it's back.
Because New Labour caused great damage, as part of the crisis of right wing capitalist economics.
Five more years on and it's gone again :(
@@ScrambleBandOfficial ain't that the truth
My hero
SBC was satirizing stereotypes. That was the entire humor for me, that people would buy such obvious nonsense was what made me laugh, so much so that the people of Kazakhstan complaining that he got it wrong was actually funnier for than the actual character!
"Rowdy beach invaders" is far more offensive when said with an Italian accent,
I think SL is a very funny guy but I think this shows he's also really intelligent (which is also obvious from a lot of his material)
I'm glad to see them use a blur song.
I wonder if Diana abbot will rewatch this video.
Co-creater of Alan Partridge? Is that right? I thought it was Armando Ianucci, Steve Coogan and David Schneider. I know he wrote for the Day to Day along with Richard Herring but I didn't think he wrote for 'Alan Partridge' or could be credited for the creation of his character (though I might be wrong)
Lenny Henry used to do some terrible black stereo types but it never hurt his career.
You should see his Chinese character.
th-cam.com/video/1vWOPu5onVM/w-d-xo.html
In the seventeen years that I've been doing standup, nobody gets the joke.
stewart Lee is so insightful!
"Oh no, who will think of the rich white folk?"
And On the Hour as well, which is (obviously) brilliant.
And then i got off the bus...28 yrs old i was
How I Escaped My Certain Fate is quite cheap now on amazon, as well as being a work of honest genius. As a lifelong bandit of digital media, the great work that is Milder Comedian is the only thing that has shamed me into actualy buying a dvd, and the fact that his other shows are not easily torrentable means that at some point I'l probly buy them too. Cheeky bastard.
I love Stewart Lee. I also love Jim Davidson.
And you're allowed to, great isn't it?
seconded
Saying he respects the show for having found a new batch of stereotypes doesn't necessarily mean he enjoys the show, just that he can show respect where respect is due. I wouldn't be surprised if he rips into it somewhere, but it almost seems too easy a target. Describing it as formulaic almost makes me think he would be less likely to attack it, though, because playing with or making references to 'comedy formulas' is a pretty frequent part of Lee's standup.
Holy shit 10 years ago ..almost.
+H4NDCRAFTED I was just thinking that when I came on this video, over 10 years old now
+H4NDCRAFTED Its quite interesting just to watch the cultural discussion as it was 10 years ago
At the risk of indulging in youtube comment discussions, I differ with your perception of Borat. (I think). Whilst overly long, I found it masterful not only comedicly but also in it's surgical analysis of modern human life/awareness. The film did not look to propogate stereotypes in my view, but to turn them around. I see you've had this conversation already.
Black women fighting naked on the floor is a stereotype?
I don't think she ever connects her answers to the questions that precede them.
Why's Tinita Tikaram in the gents?
1:29 I wonder how many people ever thought Boris would be the PM
How far we've fallen.
Especially with the myriad of other stereotype-related songs they had to choose from.
I beleive that you have challenged my views surrounding this particular film, and it's interesting to see someone elses take on a something that has been covered in controversy.
I can see that you obviously think that I have some kind of 'I'm better than everyone', self righteous issues, but I really am just trying to understand and empathise with every view point, regardless of what I personally think. Also I take it that you don't like 'borat'? Haha (just to get that totally straight)
Anyone else notice how Andrew Neil's thatch seems to subtly change colour with the varying (economic) climate.
Whats that crumpled Morrissey Doing on national television
I hope people don't lose their sense of humor. I agree that racism is terrible and that it can be a somewhat murky area, where comedy ends and it begins to be rude. I personally though, think that stereotypes can be hilarious, even (and sometimes especially) if they are about my society or cultural group.
Is there a stereotype for being in Maxwell's black book... Twice?
Such a shame this is so short. 7 minutes is hardly a long enough time to discuss this topic.
Ban-Ki Moon has left himself go
Sort of thing Stewart Lee could sound good saying.
06:54 "National stereotypes are dangerous because we live in a multi-cultural country." That doesn't make sense. Surely that negates any truth of a stereotype and reduces it to merely a funny concept.
However, If think what he meant to say was that: For politicians it is dangerous to make such stereotypical assumptions about voters and the society for which they are trying to govern.
@ZZKe7 although it's probably a safe assumption since Little Britain lacks the ability to move beyond stereotypes - it doesn't have actual "characters"
Morrissey's let himself go.
***** Doctor Who is pretty stale.
*****
No one cares about the 5th doctor either, except you. So why don't you stop pissing on my parade.
*****
It's a good joke. Here's another one: 90's eskimo face has let himself go.
I don't think a million people watch Stewart Lee. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, who cares? For those unaware of the "in joke", they will have to get in on it. Otherwise, it's funny to those of us who know. It's got nothing to do with originality, the whole point of the joke is that some people get it, and others don't.
There is nothing stupid about the joke, you've just heard it so often you've become jaded.
Go sink into your shit nostalgia for a TV show that's gone to shit.
*****
I never meant to try and be ingenious, I was making a joke that the community of Stewart Lee's audience will get. Are you saying SL doesn't look like Morrissey? Are you saying I was trying to be funny by saying he looks like someone he doesn't? Why would someone do that? That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. You're fucking boring me now.
***** I bet you own a fedora irl
"and black Dianne Abbot..." herm
I appreciate any blur song that isn't country house charmless man etc. being used
Stewart Lee looked at Ken Clarke like he was planning on getting up and pissing on him.
Stew I like your laugh.
Terry Christian's let himself go
He looks worse than Stuart lee for sure. Check him out.
@@charlessky3957 In fairness, he's got a good few years on Stewart.
Ratko Mladic has let himself go.
Clarkey Cat - proud. And proud to BE proud.
Stewart smiling at himself , his work for Spitting Image obviously got under the skin of some people. Well worth the effort then!
well alot of the spaniards I knew in Britain loved that show, thats just my personal and real experience, not a questionable media report- maybe some were though, they shouldve done a poll. Some people are offended by everything in fairness. I strongly doubt the average spaniard even in Spain gave a toss!
@baffo27
Google it. It was a popular sketch show about 5 years ago from Matt Lucas and David Walliams. Had lots of stereotypes of Brits, such as the 'chav' Vicky Pollard ("Yeah but no but yeah but no but").
Lol, even though it's only four years ago, it feels like a totally different era.
Lol, even though it's only 10 years ago, it feels like a totally different era.
Good god
bizarre seeing youtube video posted '16 years ago' wow
the point is that, Borat was issued on general release with the full awareness that a vast majority of its intended audience already possessed the same distorted stereotype of the world, which the film only further sought to propagate.
If this weren't true, the creators surely would have had a blank slate to work from. Why weren't the Kazakhs portrayed as some green-skinned, cloud-dwelling, fantastical super-beings?
In a nutshell - If social and moral norms (which affects ow we view ourselves and others) is a relative phenomenon, then surely, the only 'fixed' (albeit paradoxical) rule we can hope to have is to understand the very real prospect the fallibility of our own values.
As a film, I just feel Borat seems to entrench these beliefs, rather than challenge them - regardless of which ideological starting point you're coming from.
And rather frustratingly, that very entrenchment also applies to me.
I once read a book called the grand tour by Christopher Hippert. It's basically a book that points out that the people of Europe even 300 years ago lived up to their stereotypes. As long as the sixteenth century travelers were describing the Italians as voluble, unreliable and hopelessly corrupt, the Germans as gluttonous, the Swiss as irritatingly officious and tidy, and the French as being, well, French.
Not relevant to the discussion maybe, but hoped people would find it interesting.
@Clembo Prometheus gave us fire right? Its a useful gift, without it we wouldn't be able to...um....put a giant cross on the lawn of people different from us and set it alight.
Did he say Stew wrote Alan Partridge?
Borat was a brilliant comedy character that exposed OTHER people's prejudices and made the assumption that all great comedians do, like Lee, that their audience is smart enough to realize that, sadly it's rarely the case. Little Britain was original in its first series, maybe the second at a push but after that it was extremely lazy and repetitive. Can't recall much stereotyping though merely portraying individuals within British society that do exist but we'd rather not talk about them.
Barthes wrote in 1967 about the death of the author. The interpretation no longer belongs to the writer. It may seem obvious to us because we're more familiar with the tropes he's lampooning, but Cohen has failed to express that same irony to a larger audience.
It's not pear cider , its PERRY
Made from 1 MASSIVE pear
What I'm saying is that such people may well be watching it for the knob gags, but at the same time, their generalised and ill-conceived preconceptions are to them, seemingly being validated and reinforced by the film.
Where the moral justification argument for Borat falls down, is due to the fact that, having watched the film, nobody leaves with their own personal views challenged to the point of invoking a change in attitudes.
I totally see what you are saying, so what party do you fall into? Is there some middle ground to your spectrum of audience response?
Would you agree that 'Borat' relies on prejudice and misconceptions to achieve 'cheap' laughs at someone elses expense? I'm just trying to get an idea of what your personal views are.
But I don't think it give people licence to 'look down' on those who don't seem to be able to self criticise.
Two minutes too many didn’t have Stewart Lee in.
What's objectionable about stereotypes is not their mere existence but the way in which they are sometimes used to completely reduce a distinctive individual or group to that stereotype in people's minds, and it is even more objectionable when the reductive label is both damaging and misleading, for example when a stable, law-abiding Scotsman is publicly portrayed as a violent homeless alcoholic.
The example of Tory Boy William Hague is not like this because it is damaging and wholly accurate.
You know all these people? Haven't they let themselves go
Poor Stewart, he looks like he's come direct form a very long week at the Edinburgh fringe - i bet he'd rather have gone to bed than do a late-night tv programme :)
id never really considered the fact that political correctness did encourage a new wave of comedy. thank god for pc
That's sort of what I meant, he plays with formulas where as shows like Little Britain stick to one rigidly, relying on the public's affection for their characters to want to see them over and over again. But yeah, see what you're saying about only praising one aspect of LB. But he does suggest that there are other "good things". I guess I just see it as a low form of comedy so a comic I like praising it at all annoyed me. I accept that's reactionary though!
@chrisjoneschrisjones I hope that was intended with irony.
Don't forget Peter Baynham!
Four people talking about a delicate subject for nearly eight minutes, only one puts their foot in it and has to be steered away from what they were saying.
I wish I was surprised.
@de1evo Ah, The Hour.
Stewart Lee the comedian for people who think they are a lot more intelligent than they actually are. You know the thinking persons comedian. Doesn't tell those obvious laugh out loud jokes.
@DnB and Psy Production And I suppose you think making that unoriginal point elevates you to a higher intellectual plain?
My god stew had no idea, Borat is showing the stereotype of AMERICANS and the way they might think about an unknown middle east country, Kazakhstan, they all got wooshed so hard
What happened to us?
Dianne Abbot is very opposed to stereotypes and all generalisations.
@Replay107 But does your audience know that the material is intentionally ridiculous, or are you just giving them confirmation of the ridiculous stereotypes they believe in?
He really has let himself go
It didn't make sense for Stewart Lee to defend Borat for racial stereotyping.
Todd Carty has