Ours was probably on our first playthrough, returning to the Undead Asylum to find a Black Knight ominously guarding our cell.. and then he also dropped the Black Knight Sword! Helped out that build a lot...
Stumbling my way through the Tomb of The Giants searching for any source of light, I found a Black knight instead. Somehow we both fall to our deaths.. and then I see the black knight halberd pop up on my screen 😮
The absolute dread of finding the black knight on top of the tower after hellkite, whilst exploring and after accidentally finding the burb black knight the same way during first playthrough. I will never forget our first time 😢
To this day I’ll never forget the feeling of killing my first black knight in the undead burg on my first DS1 playthrough. Certified all time epic gamer moment.
@@raymondzellar5523 lucky drop! I never finished my first playthrough of DS1 on Xbox 360 unfortunately. Picked up Remastered on PC years later and got the halberd to drop from my first knight in dark root garden a couple hours in. Had no idea how good it would end up being and how lucky I was lol. Gotta love those moments when you’re still a souls noob.
@@alyseleem2692 It literally just explains how summoning works in the same paragraph as getting the stone from Solaire. It's tutorial knowledge, the tutorial doesn't really end until you kill Taurus tbh
@@things-z8o No. It makes the opposite of sense. It allows anybody to take any premise that makes absolutely no sense and just...present it as a theory. It allows anything and everything under that specific excuse. It ignores any possible way to connect these things through a chain of logic and time, and instead, makes it a jumble of random ###. P.S: It's " Time is stagnant". That's the actual translation. Time is stagnant during the fading of the Fire, allowing you to summon people from different points in the past. That's it. That's what it is. As the other guy said, it explains a mechanic. If you wanna stretch it, it also explains why night and day don't really change when you're playing, but besides that? Nothing.
There's actually an explanation for why Silver Knights leave behind bodies in DkS3: if you strike them, you'll notice that they seem to bleed, but the blood isn't red but rather black. What's going on in that the Silver Knights of DkS3 are armor suits reanimated by Aldrich, who poured bits of his sludgy body into them and is using his power of reminiscence to replicate their fighting styles of old, presumably as a result of eating Gwyndolin, Gwyndolin's old faux sunlight clergy, and/or some of his old Darkmoon adherents. Interestingly, this also explains what's going on with the Silver Knights in DkS1: they're illusory troops made by Gwyndolin but because he's not versed in Lightning miracles due to being raised with moon sorcery, he could only replicate the knights' movements but not imbue them with their legendary lightning.
I think the knights are just abyssal and not on the level you fight on the right side of the Anor Londo entrance. The only real ones left are the ones in the Gwynevere and Nashsnds room guarding the last of what they cherish and remember even Smoughs hammer itself.
Nothing in DS3 comes close to supporting that idea. The DS3 silver knights are human Irithyllians (since they are hollows) who have taken the mantle of the original silver knights, as shown by the statues of young squires holding silver knight swords in the city. They were then presumably killed by Aldritch and his adherents and became hollows.
I didn't know there was a debate whether the silver and black knights were human or not. They aren't, they are amongst (and descendants of) those beings who found souls within the First Flame, but they are not humans, only those who share fragment of the Dark Soul are humans, and Gwyn sealed the arms and armor of the human knights with a ring of fire (Ringed Knights).
No doubt, human knights are clearly unique and distinct, as would their armor suggest. However it seems to me the debate is rather whether the silver and black knights are actually living humanoids, or merely ghosts in a shell (hah). Upon encounters in game - as is the case of black knights - they are apparitions in solid armor. But we do assume they were once living humanoids, some becoming restless and haunting the armor after the flame is kindled
Very interesting! DS3 definitely brought new light to a lot of the uncertainty of DS1 so perhaps we should've included the later information. Beforehand it was a classic debate!
A lot of people know that Miyazaki was a massive fan of the Berserk series, but Miura, the author of Berserk, was a massive fan of the King Arthur movie starring Liam Neeson and Patrick Stewart. In that movie, the armor of the knights of the round table change to reflect their status. At their prime, it shone and reflected light because the land was prospering, but during their fall, it was muddy and rusting, because their king fell ill and with it the land. I think Miyazaki reflected this storytelling in the design of the Silver Knights. The black knights we fight have been burned both figuratively and literally, due to the war against the dragons, the repelling of demonkind caused by the bed of chaos, and to their godking offering himself as kindling. The silver knights we fight in Anor Londo aren't even real, just mere illusions conjured by Gwyndolin, and thus, their armor is shining with brilliance to reflect better times and instill false hope.
I'm pretty sure those silver knights are still alive and firing arrows after killing gwyndolin and gwynevere's illusion. Still doesn't discredit your connection, though
No, it’s just because black knights went through a lot, and are more battle tested, be it through demons, or the kindling of the flame, you can see that through the use of their weapons, being much more powerful. Black in this case, back in feudal Japan, was the color used for war, simply because it helped with blood stains from your opponents after their death. Silver, on the other hand, is a much more pristine and regal color, denoting the cuddled (compared to black knights) silver knights. Keep also in mind, Gwyn was going to link the fire alone, those silver knights that accompanied him, fully aware of the risk, did it out of their own loyalty to Gwyn, and even in their current destroyed state, still protect Lordran/Lothric.
What if there are two generations of Black Knights? The first Generation fought in the war against the demons and were charred black, but never followed Gwyn to the kiln, instead they wander Lordran. The Silver Knights seen in the cutscene would be the second generation of Black knights, charred in the Kiln of the first flame and now stand sentry over it with Gwyn.
@ivankrylov6270 The demons were spawned due to the witch Izalith trying to recreate the first flame because it was dying. It didn't work obviously, and so Gwyn offered himself as kindling to bolster the dying flame. Canonically, it only makes sense the first generation silver knights were during the Dragon War, and the second being bodyguards to Gwyn to prevent anyone from sabotaging the first flame
@@mangoman1866Silver knights had demon slaying weaponry ... before they became burned. All black knights have demon slaying tools. Could be coincidence that only black knight survivors were those with such weapons... as clearly Gwyn's most loyal were those he took with him to Izalith/Kiln. Those that remained "intact" were the most faithful of the faithful.
There is only one generation of Black Knights, they are the ones who fought with Gwyn against the demons and imediately after followed him to the kiln. You are overcomplicating a very simple plot-point for no reason.
Holy shit, more than a decade and I never gave a second thought that the cutscene might be Gwyn kindling the flame and not finding the soul. Learn something new about this game every once in a while. Not only is his hair greyer but he's kinda plump compared to the lightning throw against the dragons.
Honestly you've been our favorite soulslore tuber since.... god what was it i found your videos in 2019 and thought you'd become something of a revenant knight yourself.
I really love how you use the soundtrack of Gothic 2, but it always takes me out a little bit as my mind goes wandering around the marketplace of Khorinis
Hawkshaw just doesn't disappoint when making a video, everything in the video is beautiful, with that music in the background and your voice that's just so suiting, can't disappoint
So happy you've made this. Black knights were the face of the game that made me get into souls. I made sure on my Tattoo sleeve to include a Black Knight with a Greataxe, my favorite of their weapons. I always believed the silver and black knights were of the race of the lords. Their size is too much.
@@trufreedom Haha yeah any npcs that are larger than human but smaller than giant I consider to be all the same race. And yeah haha my whole sleeve is dark souls and my chest piece is Elden ring. But having the black knight on was one of my biggest musts for the tattoo. 😂
There are also Silver Knights present at the time that our character enters the world, so there is literally no reason to think that there is only 1 possible point in time that silver knights were turned black, they didn't act as 1 single unit, they acted in at least 2 units (one defending anor and one going to war) but much, much more likely is that they operated like a real army - in dozens or hundreds of different units. If anything, there are probably many more silver knights around the world and also many more black knights who were transformed by events other than the kindling or demon war. Been watching Hawkshaw for years and this is the first time he has dropped a definitive that is so not definite
Finally a great and comprehensive video on the knights. Iconic characters yet very hard to grasp what they actually are so iam glad a good explaination exists now. Outstanding work
Dark Knights are, and will always be the most badass and well design enemies in the franchise in my opinion. Love their design so much. Especially with the greatsword, man that's so cool. I will always remember my first meeting with the one in undead parish. The very first in undead burg didn't struck that mucg with me because he is not that hard but the one in the tower damn when you're new in the franchise like I was in 2011 and didn't know backstab and parry, this guy is so strong EDIT : I also love the fact that their is no concret loot with him, just him (apart from the loot he drop after but you don't know that yet). The first BK has a ring, here it's juste your guts vs this tall armor guy. If you're here to fight him, it's just to test your skills in this tiny roof. And they have magnificient animations, slow and straight, That's so cool
They're the most intimidating enemies to me in DkS1, all of their attacks just felt so crushingly weighty, making you instinctively step back no matter how many times you've seen it.
Magnificent video as always, discovered your account fairly recently but I’ve binged every video. Thank you for all your effort it does not go unnoticed
Oh man I've thought about how cool wandering enemies would be! I'll never forget the dread of a high lvl giant walking by in a noob zone. EverQuest was brutal. A terrifying high lvl thing just randomly showing up anywhere in the world is a cool idea
I love the idea of the Black Knights hunting you throughout the world. Could have worked like NPC invaders, perhaps tied to the sin system where higher sin gets you more frequent black knight invasions.
Just today I was wondering, if I still get a Hawkshaw video this year. Lovely christmas present ! Though the Black Knights were never that keen to give me presents but rather their weapons to the head...
For those interested there was also a Dark Souls: Age of Fire comic made, featuring a Silver Knight Captain. Silver Knight Arkon was the protagonist in that comic.
I never understood why in some Lore people say that silver knights armor melted into black knights armor when the armors are different and don't look actually melted. The Horns do not have the same shape as the wings and the neck piece is different, silver knights neck piece is low profile and black knights are high profile, if knight armor was melted shouldn't be Reversed? Like silver knights having high profile neck piece and black knights low progile because of the armor being melted? I always thought the armors were just made different since the very beginning, being the Black Knights armor silver but with the horns and high profile neck piece , instead of the wings and low Profile neck piece. Also Silver Knights armor doesn't have engravings and Black Knights armors do have engravings, should not be otherwise because of the melting? Even when miyazaki said the silver knights turned into the black knighst because of the flame, doesn't make sense from the armor design. Anyways i just feel like nobody points the obvious, and i am not a Lore geek but for me does not make any sense
I know its a Dark Souls oriented video / series, but I can’t stop to appreciate the Gothic music you shove left and right in your videos lately. Hope maybe a Gothic series now that the game came out on *recent hardware*( Nintendo Switch ) and PC patches released by THQ
Maybe it's a bit of both. Whose to say that Gwyn's forces were so utterly divided into purely just two groups? Whose to say that Gwyn didn't retain enough of his mind to assign some knights after burning? Also; the Demon's Souls similarity is more likely the Blue-Eyed and Red-Eyed Knights.
Nothing really implies that Gwyn sacrificed the black knights on purpose, the wording of the silver and black knight's armor descriptions implies they chose to follow him on their own. THEY split into two groups, and the black knights FOLLOWED ("PURSUED" in japanese) Gwyn to the kiln. It wouldn't make sense for Gwyn to do that in the first place. He already has the most powerful soul in existence to fuel the flame, voluntarily burning half of Anor Londo's military for no reason would be idiotic, as we see in the DLC. Also, the description of the Black Knight Shield is slightly different in japanese. It states that the shields of those who faced the demons a long time ago are darkened and fire-resistant. This is different from the english directly stating that facing the demons is what charred the shields black, it's vaguer and doesn't necessarily imply a direct causality. Together with their armor description, the implication is that the knights who faced the demons were the ones who followed Gwyn (obvious since all BKs still wield their demon-hunting equipment, and directly stated in their shield desc), and therefore they were the ones who were burnt by his kindling, becoming BKs in the process. This was outright confirmed in the DW Interview, but is also supported by item placement. You can get BK weapons at any point in the game, which paints a vague picture of how they came to be. Then, only at the end of the game do you get their armor in a pick-up at the kiln, which makes their story clear. People tend to ignore the fact that item descriptions aren't just dry encyclopedia entries, but that sometimes their placement and order in which you obtain play an important part in the story-telling. There is no decade-long plothole, it's just a translation issue, one of many.
I think that its clear the intended story is for the armour to have been burnt black by demons, and the confusion is caused by the quote having potentially obsice wording. They were silver knights, they did transform when Gwyn linked the flame (from knights with thought and a purpose, to aimless wanderers) and they changed when they were burned. (Either by the first flame, or the demons) In terms of the intro, it seems like it is Gwyn finding the lord soul. I think Gwyns hair is a matter of lighting. It doesnt seem to be coloured when hes fighting the dragons.
Are we positive that Black Knights can only have one origin and not both? Because honestly, as long as there are more Silver Knights that exist in Anor Londo serving the gods that remained behind for who knows how long, there are still Knights that could have then be burned by fighting Demons. I know it's probably anti-climatic for a lot of people that a bigger distinction isn't made, but I can totally see a "royal guard" that is burned with Gwyn and the remaining soldiers that are still doing his will fighting agaisnt demons.
Both can be true in a sense. They got burned black by the demons, but also all became incorporeal in the linking. The only thing he misspoke about was the linking causing the coloration?
Gothic ost was a very fitting choice, good job with a great decision. edit: if I am not mistaken they even used medieval 2 soundtrack which if true is very cool
Thanks you for this! I have a deep emotional connection to the black knights and their weapons. My favourite weapon in ANY game is the Black Knight Sword. It’s elegant yet ferocious and fast.
The Black Knight armor does say that they were burned in the First Flame (in DS1): "The knights followed Lord Gwyn when he departed to link the Fire but they were burned to ashes in the newly kindled flame, wandering the world as disembodied spirits ever after."
As a true Polish Gothic lover, I really appreciate the use of Gothic 2 soundtrack in your videos. Even though I was listening to you talking about the lore of DS, my mind was in a completely different place - the harbour town of Khorinis :)
Always had to cheese the greatsword BK in undead burg with the stairs, fighting him on the tower top was a surefire way to throw your controller into the wall
The Silver knights themselves were transformed when Gwyn linked the fire. But the Black knights shields and armour were burned and charred when they fought Demons. Words like transformed don't always have to be visual or literal. Especially when talking about Souls games.
Maybe some silver knights became black in the war with chaos (and then ended up wandering lordran), and the other black knights in the kiln were silver knights who didn't go to izalith...
The Dragonslayer armor in DS3 is empty. Now I’m picturing black knights having gone hollow and they’re basically limp corpses inside an armor animated by an infused will that was lost by its wearer long ago. My new head canon.
Just a thought, when the dev said that the silver knights became the Black knights when Gwyn linked the flame, he could’ve meant that was the moment they stopped being the original silver knights in black armor and instead then became the wraith-like Black Knights we know. So instead of it being a comment on when their armor changed color it’s about when they literally BECAME the Black Knights. Still doesn’t explain the intro cinematic issue but this might be my new head canon.
Hawkshaw, I've commented this in many of your videos... Dark souls (in general from soft) follows the archaeologist's/historian's path of storycrafting/telling. The item descriptions, while reliable aren't 100% factual. You can see this , for example, in Artorias' items that aren't located in the DLC. The narrator carries some subjectivity. It's as if you study a letter of a guy in 1852 and try to "guess" the social and political implications. This also happens in Elden ring, you can see the descriptions being somewhat objective, but in truth, the victor documents the history and most of them GLAZE the elden ring followers and leaders. Therefore, the narrator in the item descriptions of the black knights' items might be "spreading a rumour". They probably didn't want it to be known that fire is fading and they had to relink and since those 2 events maybe happened one after another (demon war - maybe it didn't happen? - -> Linking), it was then common place that the armors and weapons were charred due to their heroic actions. No religious leader, especially the one who is deified, would want it to be known that his power is fading. I can go into further extent and with more examples. Maybe it's easier for the videos to ignore this but most of LoreTubers are taking descriptions as FACTS and not as partially subjective from the "narrator"...
Fair point! We definitely try to acknowledge when this strongly impacts a specific interpretation or other facts, and in Elden Ring it feels especially relevant so it's something we are conscious of. But at the end of the day it's tough to parse much if taking a strong stance on it - the motivations of characters are complicated, let alone whoever is behind each description!
Maybe the black knights burn first on the demon war and the armor gain the fire resist and after that when they burn for the first flame it protect the soul inside that continue to serve... If is confuse what i said remember... Time is convoluted is dark souls...just like my writing 😅
This is why Dark Souls is so great. It just can’t die. The irony is palpable. Dark Souls is amazing, and the lore is extensive. Truly an inspiration to me as a story writer.
on my first playthrough it took me like 25 min to kill that damn knight in undead burg(sword) and when i finally killed him with like 20 backstabs he dropped his sword witch i used thru the entire game so that was fun really good sword but a bit too good in the early game
15:21 I don't agree with "it can't be both" - that could possibly mean that Silver Knights Gwyn took with him to fight Chaos were not blackened, but tempered, and did not turn into completely black colour as we see them in game. however, the impact of the Kiln was so strong, yet somehow did not impact silver to its melting point, that it turned silver black from inside out. if you were to scratch a Silver Knight whose armour was oxidised from time, or blackened by Chaos fire, you'd still find bright silver underneath. with Black Knights, their silver is now black that you can't simply scratch off. so, the Black Knights had a dark sheen to them due to Chaos fire, but the Kiln fire turned them dark completely.
When I went back to the undead asylum on my first playthrough, I was really surprised to see a black knight but it shined all white so it was ominous. I thought it was a shiny!
I always thought it was very odd that Gwyn looked so old during the opening cutscene in that moment where he *appears* to be finding the Lord Soul within the First Flame. Like, did this guy just spawn out of the darkness already as an old man? Never made sense to me. Thanks for answering that riddle!
Maybe turning from Silver Knights to Black Knights during the Linking of the Fire didn't necessarily imply the change of their armour's colour, but changing and becoming something different. And fighting chaos demons then gave their armour special fire-resistant properties and the black colour. Nice video, thx!
I’ll never forget my first time entering the Kiln of the First Flame. Seeing those spectral knights walking across the staircase made me just sit there and watch. Dark Souls is truly a special game.
I always viewed Silver/Black Knights more as androids or some sort of artificial sentinels than actual living beings, but outside of following their duty no matter what and being boundlessly loyal to Gwyn, I don’t have anything else to support it.
In their on way they are hollow, without purpose, and broken. They were once people with as much personality as any NPC you would find, but losing their godking and losing to the Chaos Flame turned them into the same kind of ragged creatures that dot the Asylum, just with better gear and training.
I've heard the argument that "There are two conflicting stories about Gwyn and the War Against the Demons". But I don't see the problem. Gwyn linked the fire as a part of the war against the demons. Both things can be true at the same time. Take that as truth, and then go back and reexamine everything else connected to it. It is a fun and interesting trip.
These guys are something else in yout first blind run of ds1. Not knowing the game well or the genre, they were scary as hell. And when you finally learn to kill one its also something else
I've got a theory here: Maybe there is a discrepancy as to when the Silver Knights were burned because Gwyn burned himself DURING the war with the Demons. With resources split, Gwyn aimed to keep the age of fire alive by sacrificing himself to it and so, burned himself and his knights. They were charred by the first flame and those who remained charged deep into Izalith to carry out the will of their lord.
I just noticed an easy way to interpret what they meant is more like. Before the linking, they were Silver Knights, clad in black. After the linking after becoming the hollow shells they are now. They are TRUE Black Knights. As there is nothing left of the "Silver Knight" that once occupied the armor outside of the will for duty.
Well in the interview he said "they are transformed" and "when they burned" referring to becoming only spirit, he did not mention the state of the armours, so those could already have been charred
Best memory of a dark knight (and consequently the level of ease I had the first time I played ds1) was in my first playthrough, getting to dark root basin, resting at the 'hidden' bonfire in the lil' cave and somehow managing to backstab kill the black knight there (pretty sure it took me a couple tries). Then it dropping the halberd. I had been using the gargoyle tail axe and getting that halberd was so darn good. Just seeing the damage it did.. ofc I sent the rest of the game only using that.
In ds3 they didn't really feel super memorable, but in ds1 I absolutely love them. I got EXCITED on my 1st playthrough every time I met one. The one guarding the bonfire in darkroot basin is probably my favourite.
Hey man good to see you again. I´m curious, I remember chatting with you on twitch on your stream. It must have been almost 2 years ago. We we´re talking about potential games to explore and I recommended the gothic series to you , with RagnarRox´s Loveletter video of it. Now im hearing the ambient music of khorinis in the background of the video :D Im guessing you got around to trying the game ? I hope to see more of you again and wish you happy holidays!
It's definitely thanks to those times that we're using the music here! Unfortunately haven't managed to do a full play through yet but really enjoyed that video on it
Their armor was charred warring against demons and the knights themselves were burned in the kiln. This could be a good compromise between what Hatsuyama and the item description says.
I know it's not a contest and I'm certainly not trying to throw shade, because this community is full of fantastic creators. But it genuinely confuses me whenever I hear someone call anyone besides Hawkshaw the "best FromSoft lore TH-camr." This channel is simply on another level from anyone else imo, at least in terms of the depth of research and attention to detail.
Maybe the Silver Knights who fought in Izalith are the ones the item descriptions were talking about, while Gwyn's personal guards are the ones the game dev was talking about in the interview
What's your most memorable Black Knight moment?
Ours was probably on our first playthrough, returning to the Undead Asylum to find a Black Knight ominously guarding our cell.. and then he also dropped the Black Knight Sword! Helped out that build a lot...
@@Hawkshaw Mine was attempting to parry the undead burg one in the tower after playing DS3, missing the timing, and getting RUINED
Stumbling my way through the Tomb of The Giants searching for any source of light, I found a Black knight instead. Somehow we both fall to our deaths.. and then I see the black knight halberd pop up on my screen 😮
I died 13 times to the halbert knight. He didn’t drop it.
The absolute dread of finding the black knight on top of the tower after hellkite, whilst exploring and after accidentally finding the burb black knight the same way during first playthrough. I will never forget our first time 😢
To this day I’ll never forget the feeling of killing my first black knight in the undead burg on my first DS1 playthrough. Certified all time epic gamer moment.
And it's justified too! You aren't really supposed to be able to face them that early, it's like a mini version of fisting the Asylum Demon. Congrats!
I got the black knights sword my first time beating him
@@raymondzellar5523 lucky drop! I never finished my first playthrough of DS1 on Xbox 360 unfortunately. Picked up Remastered on PC years later and got the halberd to drop from my first knight in dark root garden a couple hours in. Had no idea how good it would end up being and how lucky I was lol. Gotta love those moments when you’re still a souls noob.
And when you get the black knight sword and realise it’s gonna be your main weapon
Me learning sorcery for the sole purpose of killing that thing and being eternally grateful Black Knights can't climb ladders
Slaps "time is convoluted in lordran"
This bad boy can fit so many plotholes
Dear God, do I despise that one.
It ends any coherent discussion. My hatred for it knows no bounds.
@@alyseleem2692 It literally just explains how summoning works in the same paragraph as getting the stone from Solaire. It's tutorial knowledge, the tutorial doesn't really end until you kill Taurus tbh
@@juter1122 Precisely! And yet, people use it for EVERYTHING!
@@alyseleem2692 cuz it makes sense
@@things-z8o No. It makes the opposite of sense. It allows anybody to take any premise that makes absolutely no sense and just...present it as a theory. It allows anything and everything under that specific excuse. It ignores any possible way to connect these things through a chain of logic and time, and instead, makes it a jumble of random ###.
P.S:
It's " Time is stagnant". That's the actual translation. Time is stagnant during the fading of the Fire, allowing you to summon people from different points in the past.
That's it.
That's what it is.
As the other guy said, it explains a mechanic.
If you wanna stretch it, it also explains why night and day don't really change when you're playing, but besides that?
Nothing.
There's actually an explanation for why Silver Knights leave behind bodies in DkS3: if you strike them, you'll notice that they seem to bleed, but the blood isn't red but rather black. What's going on in that the Silver Knights of DkS3 are armor suits reanimated by Aldrich, who poured bits of his sludgy body into them and is using his power of reminiscence to replicate their fighting styles of old, presumably as a result of eating Gwyndolin, Gwyndolin's old faux sunlight clergy, and/or some of his old Darkmoon adherents.
Interestingly, this also explains what's going on with the Silver Knights in DkS1: they're illusory troops made by Gwyndolin but because he's not versed in Lightning miracles due to being raised with moon sorcery, he could only replicate the knights' movements but not imbue them with their legendary lightning.
Dumb and reach
The lightning that Gwynn gave up before burning himself?
I think the knights are just abyssal and not on the level you fight on the right side of the Anor Londo entrance. The only real ones left are the ones in the Gwynevere and Nashsnds room guarding the last of what they cherish and remember even Smoughs hammer itself.
Nothing in DS3 comes close to supporting that idea. The DS3 silver knights are human Irithyllians (since they are hollows) who have taken the mantle of the original silver knights, as shown by the statues of young squires holding silver knight swords in the city. They were then presumably killed by Aldritch and his adherents and became hollows.
They don't use lightning in ds1 because hollows can't use miracles
I didn't know there was a debate whether the silver and black knights were human or not. They aren't, they are amongst (and descendants of) those beings who found souls within the First Flame, but they are not humans, only those who share fragment of the Dark Soul are humans, and Gwyn sealed the arms and armor of the human knights with a ring of fire (Ringed Knights).
No doubt, human knights are clearly unique and distinct, as would their armor suggest.
However it seems to me the debate is rather whether the silver and black knights are actually living humanoids, or merely ghosts in a shell (hah). Upon encounters in game - as is the case of black knights - they are apparitions in solid armor. But we do assume they were once living humanoids, some becoming restless and haunting the armor after the flame is kindled
I guess it really is that easy to figure out lore sometimes. Could it be possible that some were the exception to the rule, tho?
They are weak to Occult damage. Just that fact settles the debate, I reckon.
yeah i mean ds3 gave us way more information so is that not hindsight tho? @@levicurtis6669
Very interesting! DS3 definitely brought new light to a lot of the uncertainty of DS1 so perhaps we should've included the later information. Beforehand it was a classic debate!
"Plot Against the Gods" mentioned
TAKE A SHOT
Okay...
I'm officially hollow...
A lot of people know that Miyazaki was a massive fan of the Berserk series, but Miura, the author of Berserk, was a massive fan of the King Arthur movie starring Liam Neeson and Patrick Stewart.
In that movie, the armor of the knights of the round table change to reflect their status. At their prime, it shone and reflected light because the land was prospering, but during their fall, it was muddy and rusting, because their king fell ill and with it the land.
I think Miyazaki reflected this storytelling in the design of the Silver Knights. The black knights we fight have been burned both figuratively and literally, due to the war against the dragons, the repelling of demonkind caused by the bed of chaos, and to their godking offering himself as kindling. The silver knights we fight in Anor Londo aren't even real, just mere illusions conjured by Gwyndolin, and thus, their armor is shining with brilliance to reflect better times and instill false hope.
I'm pretty sure those silver knights are still alive and firing arrows after killing gwyndolin and gwynevere's illusion. Still doesn't discredit your connection, though
@@Sylph_C0 Never had a reason to go back there tbh. That's why I assumed they also despawned like the ones inside
The giant guardians and the sunlight is an illusion, but not the silver knights.
Silver knights are not illusory. Dark Souls 3 has Silver Knights way long after any illusion had been banished.
No, it’s just because black knights went through a lot, and are more battle tested, be it through demons, or the kindling of the flame, you can see that through the use of their weapons, being much more powerful.
Black in this case, back in feudal Japan, was the color used for war, simply because it helped with blood stains from your opponents after their death. Silver, on the other hand, is a much more pristine and regal color, denoting the cuddled (compared to black knights) silver knights.
Keep also in mind, Gwyn was going to link the fire alone, those silver knights that accompanied him, fully aware of the risk, did it out of their own loyalty to Gwyn, and even in their current destroyed state, still protect Lordran/Lothric.
So glad you are still making Souls content, your Demon Society video is what got me into DS lore. Keep up the excellent work Hawkshaw!
Thank you! We love that demon video, so glad we brought you to the lore through it!
the moment you announced you would continue making videos, i was so happy. glad to have you around Hawkshaw
What if there are two generations of Black Knights? The first Generation fought in the war against the demons and were charred black, but never followed Gwyn to the kiln, instead they wander Lordran. The Silver Knights seen in the cutscene would be the second generation of Black knights, charred in the Kiln of the first flame and now stand sentry over it with Gwyn.
I think it's the other way around. First gen were there to fight against the dragons while the second gen fought the demons
@ivankrylov6270 The demons were spawned due to the witch Izalith trying to recreate the first flame because it was dying. It didn't work obviously, and so Gwyn offered himself as kindling to bolster the dying flame. Canonically, it only makes sense the first generation silver knights were during the Dragon War, and the second being bodyguards to Gwyn to prevent anyone from sabotaging the first flame
Why would the Kiln generation of black knights also have demon-slaying weapons?
@@mangoman1866Silver knights had demon slaying weaponry ... before they became burned. All black knights have demon slaying tools. Could be coincidence that only black knight survivors were those with such weapons... as clearly Gwyn's most loyal were those he took with him to Izalith/Kiln. Those that remained "intact" were the most faithful of the faithful.
There is only one generation of Black Knights, they are the ones who fought with Gwyn against the demons and imediately after followed him to the kiln. You are overcomplicating a very simple plot-point for no reason.
Yes! Black knights!!! My favorite enemies next to the Silver knights and demons
The most fun enemies to fight in any Souls games are always the OP humanoids, even though other fights are flashy.
I've never felt more joy when seeing a TH-cam video compared to when Hawkshaw makes a Dark souls video.
Holy shit, more than a decade and I never gave a second thought that the cutscene might be Gwyn kindling the flame and not finding the soul. Learn something new about this game every once in a while. Not only is his hair greyer but he's kinda plump compared to the lightning throw against the dragons.
Honestly you've been our favorite soulslore tuber since.... god what was it i found your videos in 2019 and thought you'd become something of a revenant knight yourself.
I really love how you use the soundtrack of Gothic 2, but it always takes me out a little bit as my mind goes wandering around the marketplace of Khorinis
Hawkshaw just doesn't disappoint when making a video, everything in the video is beautiful, with that music in the background and your voice that's just so suiting, can't disappoint
Can we appreciate this man has been making quality lore videos for 7 years now!!!!
So happy you've made this. Black knights were the face of the game that made me get into souls. I made sure on my Tattoo sleeve to include a Black Knight with a Greataxe, my favorite of their weapons.
I always believed the silver and black knights were of the race of the lords. Their size is too much.
I always thought they were related to the gods as well!
And part of your tattoo is a black knight? That's ba af! 🤘
@@trufreedom Haha yeah any npcs that are larger than human but smaller than giant I consider to be all the same race. And yeah haha my whole sleeve is dark souls and my chest piece is Elden ring. But having the black knight on was one of my biggest musts for the tattoo. 😂
honestly im so fucking glad your back to making dark souls lore, by far the greatest lore master we have
I believe both are canon, black knights can be found ou tside the kiln as they were burnt by demons, and those stuck inside were burnt by the kiln
There are also Silver Knights present at the time that our character enters the world, so there is literally no reason to think that there is only 1 possible point in time that silver knights were turned black, they didn't act as 1 single unit, they acted in at least 2 units (one defending anor and one going to war) but much, much more likely is that they operated like a real army - in dozens or hundreds of different units.
If anything, there are probably many more silver knights around the world and also many more black knights who were transformed by events other than the kindling or demon war.
Been watching Hawkshaw for years and this is the first time he has dropped a definitive that is so not definite
@@boblionia agreed wholeheartedly, said it way better than i could
At around 0:50 that music... I did not expect that... Thank you for bringing a smile to my face
gothic soundtracks , omg this channel keeps getting better and better
Definitely one of the most badass and pure designs Fromsoft has made
Finally a great and comprehensive video on the knights. Iconic characters yet very hard to grasp what they actually are so iam glad a good explaination exists now. Outstanding work
Amazing video please please continue with ds1 content, I feel like there is still so much to discuss and your channel is a true beacon in this regard
14:53 Age of Mythologies soundtrack is a great choice!
Dark Knights are, and will always be the most badass and well design enemies in the franchise in my opinion. Love their design so much. Especially with the greatsword, man that's so cool. I will always remember my first meeting with the one in undead parish. The very first in undead burg didn't struck that mucg with me because he is not that hard but the one in the tower damn when you're new in the franchise like I was in 2011 and didn't know backstab and parry, this guy is so strong
EDIT : I also love the fact that their is no concret loot with him, just him (apart from the loot he drop after but you don't know that yet). The first BK has a ring, here it's juste your guts vs this tall armor guy. If you're here to fight him, it's just to test your skills in this tiny roof. And they have magnificient animations, slow and straight, That's so cool
They're the most intimidating enemies to me in DkS1, all of their attacks just felt so crushingly weighty, making you instinctively step back no matter how many times you've seen it.
@@apophisstr6719 They're not so hard but if you mess up, they will hard punish. They're pretty strong to wipe out stamina when shielding too.
Magnificent video as always, discovered your account fairly recently but I’ve binged every video. Thank you for all your effort it does not go unnoticed
Oh man I've thought about how cool wandering enemies would be! I'll never forget the dread of a high lvl giant walking by in a noob zone. EverQuest was brutal. A terrifying high lvl thing just randomly showing up anywhere in the world is a cool idea
I love the idea of the Black Knights hunting you throughout the world. Could have worked like NPC invaders, perhaps tied to the sin system where higher sin gets you more frequent black knight invasions.
That age of mythology music you used hit me in the nostalgia. Loved it as well as the video itself great stuff
Just today I was wondering, if I still get a Hawkshaw video this year. Lovely christmas present ! Though the Black Knights were never that keen to give me presents but rather their weapons to the head...
For those interested there was also a Dark Souls: Age of Fire comic made, featuring a Silver Knight Captain. Silver Knight Arkon was the protagonist in that comic.
Really dug the mock war between the knights and demons footage.
I've been waiting for this for too long! Praise the sun... Praise Hawkshaw!
Love the video man, perfect early Christmas present. Merry Christmas Hawkshaw
I never understood why in some Lore people say that silver knights armor melted into black knights armor when the armors are different and don't look actually melted. The Horns do not have the same shape as the wings and the neck piece is different, silver knights neck piece is low profile and black knights are high profile, if knight armor was melted shouldn't be Reversed? Like silver knights having high profile neck piece and black knights low progile because of the armor being melted? I always thought the armors were just made different since the very beginning, being the Black Knights armor silver but with the horns and high profile neck piece , instead of the wings and low Profile neck piece.
Also Silver Knights armor doesn't have engravings and Black Knights armors do have engravings, should not be otherwise because of the melting? Even when miyazaki said the silver knights turned into the black knighst because of the flame, doesn't make sense from the armor design.
Anyways i just feel like nobody points the obvious, and i am not a Lore geek but for me does not make any sense
I know its a Dark Souls oriented video / series, but I can’t stop to appreciate the Gothic music you shove left and right in your videos lately. Hope maybe a Gothic series now that the game came out on *recent hardware*( Nintendo Switch ) and PC patches released by THQ
Maybe it's a bit of both. Whose to say that Gwyn's forces were so utterly divided into purely just two groups? Whose to say that Gwyn didn't retain enough of his mind to assign some knights after burning? Also; the Demon's Souls similarity is more likely the Blue-Eyed and Red-Eyed Knights.
So happy to hear Gothic soundtrack in the background
thank you for spreading another tale of this twisted and beautiful world of dark souls
0:48 Gothic soundtrack
i love ur vids, not only cuz they are the best of lore vids but also u give them gothic music man u hit my feelz af
black knights r pretty cool.
Nothing really implies that Gwyn sacrificed the black knights on purpose, the wording of the silver and black knight's armor descriptions implies they chose to follow him on their own. THEY split into two groups, and the black knights FOLLOWED ("PURSUED" in japanese) Gwyn to the kiln. It wouldn't make sense for Gwyn to do that in the first place. He already has the most powerful soul in existence to fuel the flame, voluntarily burning half of Anor Londo's military for no reason would be idiotic, as we see in the DLC.
Also, the description of the Black Knight Shield is slightly different in japanese. It states that the shields of those who faced the demons a long time ago are darkened and fire-resistant. This is different from the english directly stating that facing the demons is what charred the shields black, it's vaguer and doesn't necessarily imply a direct causality. Together with their armor description, the implication is that the knights who faced the demons were the ones who followed Gwyn (obvious since all BKs still wield their demon-hunting equipment, and directly stated in their shield desc), and therefore they were the ones who were burnt by his kindling, becoming BKs in the process.
This was outright confirmed in the DW Interview, but is also supported by item placement. You can get BK weapons at any point in the game, which paints a vague picture of how they came to be. Then, only at the end of the game do you get their armor in a pick-up at the kiln, which makes their story clear. People tend to ignore the fact that item descriptions aren't just dry encyclopedia entries, but that sometimes their placement and order in which you obtain play an important part in the story-telling.
There is no decade-long plothole, it's just a translation issue, one of many.
The black knight sounding so at peace as we put him to rest lol
I think that its clear the intended story is for the armour to have been burnt black by demons, and the confusion is caused by the quote having potentially obsice wording. They were silver knights, they did transform when Gwyn linked the flame (from knights with thought and a purpose, to aimless wanderers) and they changed when they were burned. (Either by the first flame, or the demons)
In terms of the intro, it seems like it is Gwyn finding the lord soul. I think Gwyns hair is a matter of lighting. It doesnt seem to be coloured when hes fighting the dragons.
Are we positive that Black Knights can only have one origin and not both? Because honestly, as long as there are more Silver Knights that exist in Anor Londo serving the gods that remained behind for who knows how long, there are still Knights that could have then be burned by fighting Demons.
I know it's probably anti-climatic for a lot of people that a bigger distinction isn't made, but I can totally see a "royal guard" that is burned with Gwyn and the remaining soldiers that are still doing his will fighting agaisnt demons.
Both can be true in a sense. They got burned black by the demons, but also all became incorporeal in the linking. The only thing he misspoke about was the linking causing the coloration?
Gothic ost was a very fitting choice, good job with a great decision.
edit: if I am not mistaken they even used medieval 2 soundtrack which if true is very cool
Thanks you for this! I have a deep emotional connection to the black knights and their weapons. My favourite weapon in ANY game is the Black Knight Sword. It’s elegant yet ferocious and fast.
I’ve been waiting for this so excited!!!!!
The Black Knight armor does say that they were burned in the First Flame (in DS1):
"The knights followed Lord Gwyn when he departed to link the Fire but they were burned to ashes in the newly kindled flame, wandering the world as disembodied spirits ever after."
As a true Polish Gothic lover, I really appreciate the use of Gothic 2 soundtrack in your videos. Even though I was listening to you talking about the lore of DS, my mind was in a completely different place - the harbour town of Khorinis :)
Always had to cheese the greatsword BK in undead burg with the stairs, fighting him on the tower top was a surefire way to throw your controller into the wall
The Silver knights themselves were transformed when Gwyn linked the fire. But the Black knights shields and armour were burned and charred when they fought Demons. Words like transformed don't always have to be visual or literal. Especially when talking about Souls games.
Your videos are absurdly good. Truly unique, creative and attentive content.
Love the music from Gothic playing in the background. Brings back some memories.
Maybe some silver knights became black in the war with chaos (and then ended up wandering lordran), and the other black knights in the kiln were silver knights who didn't go to izalith...
Have demons, have black knight in undead asylum, undead burg.
8 years later and I'm still learning more about the lore. What a masterpiece of gaming.
The Dragonslayer armor in DS3 is empty. Now I’m picturing black knights having gone hollow and they’re basically limp corpses inside an armor animated by an infused will that was lost by its wearer long ago.
My new head canon.
22:14 Hole in one!
Awesome video! Thank you for the lore
This gonna be a banger
Just a thought, when the dev said that the silver knights became the Black knights when Gwyn linked the flame, he could’ve meant that was the moment they stopped being the original silver knights in black armor and instead then became the wraith-like Black Knights we know. So instead of it being a comment on when their armor changed color it’s about when they literally BECAME the Black Knights.
Still doesn’t explain the intro cinematic issue but this might be my new head canon.
Gothic 2 ost - respect. Great video!
Making me want to do another play though. Great video!
Hawkshaw, I've commented this in many of your videos...
Dark souls (in general from soft) follows the archaeologist's/historian's path of storycrafting/telling. The item descriptions, while reliable aren't 100% factual. You can see this , for example, in Artorias' items that aren't located in the DLC. The narrator carries some subjectivity. It's as if you study a letter of a guy in 1852 and try to "guess" the social and political implications. This also happens in Elden ring, you can see the descriptions being somewhat objective, but in truth, the victor documents the history and most of them GLAZE the elden ring followers and leaders.
Therefore, the narrator in the item descriptions of the black knights' items might be "spreading a rumour". They probably didn't want it to be known that fire is fading and they had to relink and since those 2 events maybe happened one after another (demon war - maybe it didn't happen? - -> Linking), it was then common place that the armors and weapons were charred due to their heroic actions. No religious leader, especially the one who is deified, would want it to be known that his power is fading.
I can go into further extent and with more examples. Maybe it's easier for the videos to ignore this but most of LoreTubers are taking descriptions as FACTS and not as partially subjective from the "narrator"...
Fair point! We definitely try to acknowledge when this strongly impacts a specific interpretation or other facts, and in Elden Ring it feels especially relevant so it's something we are conscious of.
But at the end of the day it's tough to parse much if taking a strong stance on it - the motivations of characters are complicated, let alone whoever is behind each description!
Maybe the black knights burn first on the demon war and the armor gain the fire resist and after that when they burn for the first flame it protect the soul inside that continue to serve...
If is confuse what i said remember...
Time is convoluted is dark souls...just like my writing 😅
I think the only human knights are the ringed city knights since it is in their item description.
This is why Dark Souls is so great.
It just can’t die.
The irony is palpable.
Dark Souls is amazing, and the lore is extensive. Truly an inspiration to me as a story writer.
on my first playthrough it took me like 25 min to kill that damn knight in undead burg(sword) and when i finally killed him with like 20 backstabs he dropped his sword witch i used thru the entire game so that was fun really good sword but a bit too good in the early game
The total war Rome soundtrack was a nice touch 😀
15:21 I don't agree with "it can't be both" - that could possibly mean that Silver Knights Gwyn took with him to fight Chaos were not blackened, but tempered, and did not turn into completely black colour as we see them in game. however, the impact of the Kiln was so strong, yet somehow did not impact silver to its melting point, that it turned silver black from inside out. if you were to scratch a Silver Knight whose armour was oxidised from time, or blackened by Chaos fire, you'd still find bright silver underneath. with Black Knights, their silver is now black that you can't simply scratch off. so, the Black Knights had a dark sheen to them due to Chaos fire, but the Kiln fire turned them dark completely.
Where did you learn to write like this? Listening to you is like listening to poetry
When I went back to the undead asylum on my first playthrough, I was really surprised to see a black knight but it shined all white so it was ominous. I thought it was a shiny!
Everyone is talking about the Gothic soundtrack, but the Total War soundtrack at 7:01 was perfect too
I always thought it was very odd that Gwyn looked so old during the opening cutscene in that moment where he *appears* to be finding the Lord Soul within the First Flame. Like, did this guy just spawn out of the darkness already as an old man? Never made sense to me. Thanks for answering that riddle!
Another Hawkshaw classic
Maybe turning from Silver Knights to Black Knights during the Linking of the Fire didn't necessarily imply the change of their armour's colour, but changing and becoming something different. And fighting chaos demons then gave their armour special fire-resistant properties and the black colour.
Nice video, thx!
I’ll never forget my first time entering the Kiln of the First Flame. Seeing those spectral knights walking across the staircase made me just sit there and watch. Dark Souls is truly a special game.
I always viewed Silver/Black Knights more as androids or some sort of artificial sentinels than actual living beings, but outside of following their duty no matter what and being boundlessly loyal to Gwyn, I don’t have anything else to support it.
In their on way they are hollow, without purpose, and broken. They were once people with as much personality as any NPC you would find, but losing their godking and losing to the Chaos Flame turned them into the same kind of ragged creatures that dot the Asylum, just with better gear and training.
I think you can fight an NPC in the Ringed City which is a black knight and has a little more personality
Absolutely amazing video man 🔥👌👌
I've heard the argument that "There are two conflicting stories about Gwyn and the War Against the Demons". But I don't see the problem. Gwyn linked the fire as a part of the war against the demons. Both things can be true at the same time. Take that as truth, and then go back and reexamine everything else connected to it. It is a fun and interesting trip.
Can't go wrong with Gothic 2 ost
I will forever mourn the loss of the Silver Knight melee weaponry from DS3.
These guys are something else in yout first blind run of ds1. Not knowing the game well or the genre, they were scary as hell. And when you finally learn to kill one its also something else
I've got a theory here: Maybe there is a discrepancy as to when the Silver Knights were burned because Gwyn burned himself DURING the war with the Demons. With resources split, Gwyn aimed to keep the age of fire alive by sacrificing himself to it and so, burned himself and his knights. They were charred by the first flame and those who remained charged deep into Izalith to carry out the will of their lord.
I just noticed an easy way to interpret what they meant is more like.
Before the linking, they were Silver Knights, clad in black. After the linking after becoming the hollow shells they are now. They are TRUE Black Knights. As there is nothing left of the "Silver Knight" that once occupied the armor outside of the will for duty.
Well in the interview he said "they are transformed" and "when they burned" referring to becoming only spirit, he did not mention the state of the armours, so those could already have been charred
Best memory of a dark knight (and consequently the level of ease I had the first time I played ds1) was in my first playthrough, getting to dark root basin, resting at the 'hidden' bonfire in the lil' cave and somehow managing to backstab kill the black knight there (pretty sure it took me a couple tries). Then it dropping the halberd. I had been using the gargoyle tail axe and getting that halberd was so darn good. Just seeing the damage it did.. ofc I sent the rest of the game only using that.
In ds3 they didn't really feel super memorable, but in ds1 I absolutely love them. I got EXCITED on my 1st playthrough every time I met one. The one guarding the bonfire in darkroot basin is probably my favourite.
Hey man good to see you again. I´m curious, I remember chatting with you on twitch on your stream. It must have been almost 2 years ago. We we´re talking about potential games to explore and I recommended the gothic series to you , with RagnarRox´s Loveletter video of it. Now im hearing the ambient music of khorinis in the background of the video :D Im guessing you got around to trying the game ? I hope to see more of you again and wish you happy holidays!
It's definitely thanks to those times that we're using the music here! Unfortunately haven't managed to do a full play through yet but really enjoyed that video on it
my dude u finally made it., u fionally puzled it all out
Their armor was charred warring against demons and the knights themselves were burned in the kiln. This could be a good compromise between what Hatsuyama and the item description says.
Heck Yeah!!!!! Love these guys BK forever
14:41
I see no colour but grey...
Humanity consumed by the demons as the trigger of conflict between Anor Londo and the Witches is an interesting thought. Hadn't heard that before.
I know it's not a contest and I'm certainly not trying to throw shade, because this community is full of fantastic creators. But it genuinely confuses me whenever I hear someone call anyone besides Hawkshaw the "best FromSoft lore TH-camr." This channel is simply on another level from anyone else imo, at least in terms of the depth of research and attention to detail.
Maybe the Silver Knights who fought in Izalith are the ones the item descriptions were talking about, while Gwyn's personal guards are the ones the game dev was talking about in the interview