4:32 - Note the appearance of "Sonic Stadium" on the list; this is refering to what ultimately became "Knuckles' Chaotix". Picture the final game, only with Sonic in place of Mighty, and Tails is playable as well (not bugged up to the point of being unusable).
@@jamesbryan287 Pretty sure I had just nabbed them straight from the Hidden Palace. I was really into romhacks and emulation, so I was in the right places at the right time lmao
Something worth further mentioning is that the earliest Sonic & Knuckles prototype (25 May 1994) is still entirely reliant on the data for Sonic 3, to the point that the game straight up crashes if it is attempted to be played without it (and loading a save state will barely help as other crashes will soon occur, as well as art corruption everywhere). However, the Sonic & Knuckles flag has already been implemented at this point, indicating that the bare minimum had been worked on. With how dysfunctional S&K was by 25 May, my theory is that they were waiting for all the stages to be beatable until officially beginning work on S&K; the 8 April prototype has the final few stages in a broken state, but by 17 May, the entire game, barring the ending was implemented. At this point, especially with word that LE was likely about to be scrapped, the developers began finally working on the S&K elements; given how quickly the game was split apart, having the title screen assets and some flags setup doesn't sound "unreasonable" for a week of work in crunch time.
I have to wonder how correct Naka's statement is that the cancellation of SVP Sonic 3 and the switch to 2D happened in June 1993- a lot of information that has come to light since that interview seems to indicate the change happened earlier. Sonic 3's level concept art- as featured in Origins- seems to depict a 2D sidescrolling game, but uses an early placeholder design for Knuckles. However, there exists a piece of concept art of Knuckles not too far off from the final design, dated April 1993, which strongly suggests that the switch from 3D to 2D happened in April at the absolute latest
It probably will never happen.... But using time travel to find alternate versions of some Sonic games would be sweet. We could find out what the true completed version of Sonic 3 would have looked like. For that matter, we could find out what Sonic 2 was originally going to be like (and where Sonic CD fits into all this).
I too often dream of using a time machine to explore alternate gaming histories, like a timeline where the Vectrex was a runaway success, or a timeline where the Pioneer LaserActive wasn’t a complete flop.
I stumbled across this video thanks to the youtube algorithm. As a long-time Sonic fan it’s fascinating to learn all this information about Sonic 3C. The most interesting tidbit for me is that although I had known SEGA had been eyeballing the SVP as a sort of Aladdin Deck Enhancer-esque device with swappable cartridges of its own back then, I had no idea that Sonic 3 was one of the games considered for it. My mind would have absolutely been blown to see a 3D Sonic on the Genesis back then. Thanks much for your work with this video. I’m looking forward to learning more!
When I was a kid I use to imagine Michael Jackson hanging out at the carnival zone because of the music beats. Then when I was older I found out he really did the voices. The carnival zone just had a Michael Jackson vive to me. I was in my 20s when I found out now I'm 40 pushing 41.
@@abc_4226 damn, just because a comment has emojis its a "bot" comment? smh, this is a real person and youd know if you took 1 second to look at their channel
I don't believe the SVP actually had audio capabilities. Virtua Racing didn't even have the audio pins connected to anything, and the decap of the SVP didn't seem to have anything related to audio either.
I wish there was a romhack of Sonic 3K that was basically a "finished" version of what this was supposed to be. Ending theme that has the full zone medley, Big Arms included at the end of launch base, etc. I know Sonic 3 Complete is already kind of that, and its options and stuff are cool, but I'd like something more traditional as well, something without all the fixes and changes Complete had, like the changes to how the super form was toggled and stuff. Basically something more akin to how it would of released in 94 if it wasn't canceled.
I think SEGA could still resease this full ver for sonic 3,but on the Sega Saturn instead,imagina Sonic 3 limited edition,with remixed tracks,new improved graphics and bugfixes,just like Sonic 3D:flickies Island!I think they should rerelease sonic 3 instead of sonic 3D ngl
Every time I hear that Sonic 3 end credits I start to sing "I was wandering in the rain...". It's still kinda strange/awesome that MJ and Buxer reworked that rather upbeat Sonic music of theirs into a slow ethereal song about MJ's depression and loneliness following the false allegations (the tabloids had been attacking him since mid 80s especially since he bought the ATV catalogue which included all the Beatles songs, which really angered racist tabloids here in the UK, no wonder they didn't care to report the actual facts about fraudster Evan Chandler in 1993). And both pieces of music work really well for their intended purposes.
Desde mucho tiempo, Sonic 3C (Limited Edition) es la version definitiva de jugar Sonic 3 y pense yo antes que era la version de Sonic 3 antes que fuera separado entre dos juegos. Entonces, el proto de 3ro de Noviembre confirma la etapa donde se empezaron a separar. Mucho tiempo tenian pensado del la habilidad drop dash.
I wonder if we will someday get an earlier prototype of Sonic 3. Because apparently, some of the music tracks from Origins derive from an earlier prototype.
@@antiseize11 Again, I’m not talking about the November 3rd prototype, I’m saying that I hope we can get a prototype that is much earlier than the Nov. 3 build. The reason is so that we can possibly see early versions of Mushroom Valley and Lava Reef Act 2.
4:20 i was doing an idea to make a sequel of Sonic 3 & Knuckles which is called: "Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles: going to Mars" Using Sonic Delta Reloaded as base of the game This is a fully inspiration of cancelled script of Sonic Mars for 32X and Tom and Jerry Blast Off to Mars (2005) The game will feature mini martians in a whole huge city called Toledo and King Thingg is the lead of the place Suddenly Dr. Robotnik took many attempts to took islands and the Little planet so he decided to took over the planet mars after of return to accending the Death Egg Peep is a female martian who works as protector of mars with others and goes with her pet Oubo And then she goes to Earth and find the Main hero to save Mars Sonic the Hedgehog so Peep asked about Robotnik is took control of mars and he accepted to join with Tails, Knuckles and Amy Robotnik also stole the invice-a-tron First of all they're going to a small island named "breeze blob island" That's about it...
05:03 I just had a look at a S3&K built by a disassembly, whilst the retail/beta dump is 4M, the assembled Rom is 3.2M (or 26-27M). I wouldn't be surprised if it was originally intended to be 24M but the game was just got too big. Note: I haven't looked too deeply into this (e.g. what's included or not such as music), it's just a casual observation.
Sega of Japan didn't produce 4MB (32 meg) cartridges for the Megadrive at the time if at all, so I don't know if it could've gotten released. In May 1994 I don't think any 16-bit games were that large. FF6 is 3MB and was considered the hugest game at the time. 18 games are this size and they were all built in the US. 3C was 32, Sonic 3 and S&K are 16 each, making it the only 4MB game in Japan
I do think 3Mb (24Mbit) was the intention for Sonic 3C, but maybe they weren't able to get the size down as the game progressed in development and more content was added. An earlier prototype of Sonic 3C might help to answer this question.
@@SilverSonic1992 I always thought sonic 3 & knuckles and 3C were 3MB, but hidden palace gives you a 4MB rom with 3C. Sonic 3 & knuckles rom is also 4MB. If they scrapped the 2 player mode, maybe get rid of the stupid slots bonus stage for instance it could've been enough to be 3MB. the manual for sonic & knuckles stated that with 3 locked on, it was 34 megs, but that isn't true. they just wanted it to seem that massive because donkey kong country was coming out soon and it'd been hyped up since the summer. I'm pretty sure that 2 megs, as i recall reading about this years ago, something to do with 2 megs of empty ram that aren't used.
wait, that guy at 1:47.... where was this picture taken? how was it taken? theres no way he would have that much technology in jail. Because he's in jail
Magazines at the time advertised Sonic 3 & Knuckles as a 34Mbit ROM. Technically, you are correct - only 4MB is ever loaded into the ROM address space. But if you were to count the physical data on the cartridge itself like they did back in the day, you would get a total size of 4.25Mb. This additional 2Mbit chip is only used in Knuckles in Sonic 2, as I mentioned in the video.
"The topic of 3C will become very relevant soon..."
:o
I am genuinely interested
he means sonic 3 limitless, right
@@Salberrysweet That's our project, lol.
@@Salberrysweet what is this
ooh
Its a miracle that Sonic 3 came out so well with so little time.
In another timeline we could've had the worst title out of the classic games
Same thing can be said about Sonic 2.
Pretty crazy how SEGA rushed Sonic games since the early days.
4:32 - Note the appearance of "Sonic Stadium" on the list; this is refering to what ultimately became "Knuckles' Chaotix". Picture the final game, only with Sonic in place of Mighty, and Tails is playable as well (not bugged up to the point of being unusable).
The leaked builds of Sonic 3C were oddly my preferred way to play the game as a kid in an emulator lmao
Where did you find them?
@@jamesbryan287 Pretty sure I had just nabbed them straight from the Hidden Palace. I was really into romhacks and emulation, so I was in the right places at the right time lmao
Does it still have the original MJ ost?
@@Lucrei. You mean the original Brad Buxer ost
@@Jeremo-FD Correct
Something worth further mentioning is that the earliest Sonic & Knuckles prototype (25 May 1994) is still entirely reliant on the data for Sonic 3, to the point that the game straight up crashes if it is attempted to be played without it (and loading a save state will barely help as other crashes will soon occur, as well as art corruption everywhere). However, the Sonic & Knuckles flag has already been implemented at this point, indicating that the bare minimum had been worked on.
With how dysfunctional S&K was by 25 May, my theory is that they were waiting for all the stages to be beatable until officially beginning work on S&K; the 8 April prototype has the final few stages in a broken state, but by 17 May, the entire game, barring the ending was implemented. At this point, especially with word that LE was likely about to be scrapped, the developers began finally working on the S&K elements; given how quickly the game was split apart, having the title screen assets and some flags setup doesn't sound "unreasonable" for a week of work in crunch time.
This is genuinely very well explained and has done more stuff to explain what Sonic3C is than other places I have read, thanks for the video!
Thank you so much! Glad it was easy to understand.
So basically they were planning to release Sonic 3C (possibly sonic 3 & knuckles) as it's own limited release
I love how even though this game is 3 decades old we still find out new things about it.
I mean the more you expirence the game the more you learn new thing
"silver sonic 1992, new video every ice age"
😂
Worth the wait though, been through worse.
He uploaded a video a month ago
@@Sonictheoofhog4 that 1 month felt like an entire historic period
Fun fact: the earth technically is in An ice age, it'd just in the warm up phase
I have to wonder how correct Naka's statement is that the cancellation of SVP Sonic 3 and the switch to 2D happened in June 1993- a lot of information that has come to light since that interview seems to indicate the change happened earlier.
Sonic 3's level concept art- as featured in Origins- seems to depict a 2D sidescrolling game, but uses an early placeholder design for Knuckles. However, there exists a piece of concept art of Knuckles not too far off from the final design, dated April 1993, which strongly suggests that the switch from 3D to 2D happened in April at the absolute latest
It probably will never happen....
But using time travel to find alternate versions of some Sonic games would be sweet.
We could find out what the true completed version of Sonic 3 would have looked like.
For that matter, we could find out what Sonic 2 was originally going to be like (and where Sonic CD fits into all this).
I too often dream of using a time machine to explore alternate gaming histories, like a timeline where the Vectrex was a runaway success, or a timeline where the Pioneer LaserActive wasn’t a complete flop.
hell yeah i love sonic cd
i'd like to time travel to get the tokyo toy show prototype of sonic 1
@@RainbowiaPS3 i was thinking about that to
I'd love to know how the prototype tracks would sound if they were finished.
Its a shame that the 32x never got a special version of sonic 3
I stumbled across this video thanks to the youtube algorithm. As a long-time Sonic fan it’s fascinating to learn all this information about Sonic 3C. The most interesting tidbit for me is that although I had known SEGA had been eyeballing the SVP as a sort of Aladdin Deck Enhancer-esque device with swappable cartridges of its own back then, I had no idea that Sonic 3 was one of the games considered for it. My mind would have absolutely been blown to see a 3D Sonic on the Genesis back then. Thanks much for your work with this video. I’m looking forward to learning more!
Thank you, it means a lot!
When I was a kid I use to imagine Michael Jackson hanging out at the carnival zone because of the music beats. Then when I was older I found out he really did the voices. The carnival zone just had a Michael Jackson vive to me. I was in my 20s when I found out now I'm 40 pushing 41.
I’m socked ngl. I knew what Sonic 3C was but I always thought that the C stood for complete (not to be confused with the hack of the same name)
sonic 3 cancelled edition
Guess the C has taken on another meaning.
more like sonic 3 the cancelled revised but scrapped edition btw.
XD
🎉🎉🎉
No Words. Quality videos every time. I dare anyone to find another channel as good as this
I do my best. Thank you!
Bot comment?
@@SilverSonic1992 Are you going to do a video on unused music sequences in Sonic 3?
@@abc_4226 damn, just because a comment has emojis its a "bot" comment? smh, this is a real person and youd know if you took 1 second to look at their channel
@@neonXG Bold of you to assume that
1. The emojies made me guess
2. I didn't look at the channel
3. This is a real person
I don't believe the SVP actually had audio capabilities. Virtua Racing didn't even have the audio pins connected to anything, and the decap of the SVP didn't seem to have anything related to audio either.
You are correct - though it seems to have perpetuated itself as a common myth.
@@SilverSonic1992and in Strange Version of Sonic 3 Beta IS rom hack? Im want it to play that 😮😮
You missed one S3
Sonic 3D
Blast
Was explicitly looking for that
I wish there was a romhack of Sonic 3K that was basically a "finished" version of what this was supposed to be. Ending theme that has the full zone medley, Big Arms included at the end of launch base, etc. I know Sonic 3 Complete is already kind of that, and its options and stuff are cool, but I'd like something more traditional as well, something without all the fixes and changes Complete had, like the changes to how the super form was toggled and stuff. Basically something more akin to how it would of released in 94 if it wasn't canceled.
So, basically 3C is what irl we have S3&K but with some changes, right?
Yeah
Pretty much yeah, except it would be on a single cartridge, instead of stacking the S3 cartridge on top of the S&K cartridge
3:03 - They also moved "Flying Battery Zone" to "Sonic 3B" to even the two halves out, so both halves would each have *6 normal, two act zones.*
the fact that sonic 3 limited felt close to completion sucks. i loved the new hidden palace knuckles animation in one of them.
I think SEGA could still resease this full ver for sonic 3,but on the Sega Saturn instead,imagina Sonic 3 limited edition,with remixed tracks,new improved graphics and bugfixes,just like Sonic 3D:flickies Island!I think they should rerelease sonic 3 instead of sonic 3D ngl
That was interesting and hey, I love the ending credits music.
I noticed that one of the 3C prototypes is specifically dated May 17, 1994, the same as that Sonic Mars script.
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles Credits Theme
4:25
so that means there was a Sonic game planned for the 32x instead of just Knuckles Chaotix
Your videos give me a very nostalgic feeling idk why
The music.
@@Spectrophia It's a lot more than that
@@cipherjoe9 So you do know why.
Sonic 3 felt like a cruise ship that was being made part by part but got canceled
What an unusual development, 3 versions of a game because of time constraints, the success of this game was deserved
Every time I hear that Sonic 3 end credits I start to sing "I was wandering in the rain...". It's still kinda strange/awesome that MJ and Buxer reworked that rather upbeat Sonic music of theirs into a slow ethereal song about MJ's depression and loneliness following the false allegations (the tabloids had been attacking him since mid 80s especially since he bought the ATV catalogue which included all the Beatles songs, which really angered racist tabloids here in the UK, no wonder they didn't care to report the actual facts about fraudster Evan Chandler in 1993). And both pieces of music work really well for their intended purposes.
Desde mucho tiempo, Sonic 3C (Limited Edition) es la version definitiva de jugar Sonic 3 y pense yo antes que era la version de Sonic 3 antes que fuera separado entre dos juegos. Entonces, el proto de 3ro de Noviembre confirma la etapa donde se empezaron a separar. Mucho tiempo tenian pensado del la habilidad drop dash.
Glad to see you back (though im late)
Thanks!
I wonder if we will someday get an earlier prototype of Sonic 3.
Because apparently, some of the music tracks from Origins derive from an earlier prototype.
The prototype rom was released on Hidden Palace and The Cutting Room Floor since 2019
@@antiseize11
I mean a prototype BEFORE that one.
@@SonicPlayer2004 The one you're talking about is already available
@@antiseize11
Again, I’m not talking about the November 3rd prototype, I’m saying that I hope we can get a prototype that is much earlier than the Nov. 3 build. The reason is so that we can possibly see early versions of Mushroom Valley and Lava Reef Act 2.
@@SonicPlayer2004 Oh okay, you didn't mention this before
4:20 i was doing an idea to make a sequel of Sonic 3 & Knuckles which is called:
"Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles: going to Mars"
Using Sonic Delta Reloaded as base of the game
This is a fully inspiration of cancelled script of Sonic Mars for 32X and Tom and Jerry Blast Off to Mars (2005)
The game will feature mini martians in a whole huge city called Toledo and King Thingg is the lead of the place
Suddenly Dr. Robotnik took many attempts to took islands and the Little planet so he decided to took over the planet mars after of return to accending the Death Egg
Peep is a female martian who works as protector of mars with others and goes with her pet Oubo
And then she goes to Earth and find the Main hero to save Mars
Sonic the Hedgehog so Peep asked about Robotnik is took control of mars and he accepted to join with Tails, Knuckles and Amy
Robotnik also stole the invice-a-tron
First of all they're going to a small island named "breeze blob island"
That's about it...
Thats a very good idea :O
A video documenting Sonic 3C and it recieved a dislike? Odd.
no shit this revised version of that sonic 3 game was cancelled jeez.
@@josephfrye7342 no shit literally everyone knew it from sonic retro
@@josephfrye7342what is the point of making this response are you dumb
How do you know it received a dislike?
@@Spectrophia Illegal ways.
6:35 could this have been foreshadowing the lost prototypes video?
Not entirely. I actually started on the lost prototypes video before this one. There's still more related to Sonic 3C once I get around to that.
@@SilverSonic1992 the version sonic 3C limited edition Return for fans in form to sonic 3 complete rom hack the 2013
05:03 I just had a look at a S3&K built by a disassembly, whilst the retail/beta dump is 4M, the assembled Rom is 3.2M (or 26-27M).
I wouldn't be surprised if it was originally intended to be 24M but the game was just got too big.
Note: I haven't looked too deeply into this (e.g. what's included or not such as music), it's just a casual observation.
Sega of Japan didn't produce 4MB (32 meg) cartridges for the Megadrive at the time if at all, so I don't know if it could've gotten released. In May 1994 I don't think any 16-bit games were that large. FF6 is 3MB and was considered the hugest game at the time. 18 games are this size and they were all built in the US. 3C was 32, Sonic 3 and S&K are 16 each, making it the only 4MB game in Japan
I do think 3Mb (24Mbit) was the intention for Sonic 3C, but maybe they weren't able to get the size down as the game progressed in development and more content was added. An earlier prototype of Sonic 3C might help to answer this question.
Super Street Fighter II cart was quite large
@@antiseize11 under 3MB actually
@@SilverSonic1992 I always thought sonic 3 & knuckles and 3C were 3MB, but hidden palace gives you a 4MB rom with 3C. Sonic 3 & knuckles rom is also 4MB. If they scrapped the 2 player mode, maybe get rid of the stupid slots bonus stage for instance it could've been enough to be 3MB. the manual for sonic & knuckles stated that with 3 locked on, it was 34 megs, but that isn't true.
they just wanted it to seem that massive because donkey kong country was coming out soon and it'd been hyped up since the summer. I'm pretty sure that 2 megs, as i recall reading about this years ago, something to do with 2 megs of empty ram that aren't used.
I wish Sega was able to finalize the prototype music for both, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and the Japanese version of Sonic 3.
Pretty good and informative video.
Thanks!
I would've paid the $100 for Sonic 3C if it was actually released. I also know it would've sold gangbusters despite the price.
Splitting the game in two may have actually hurt overall sales. It's an interesting consideration.
wait, that guy at 1:47.... where was this picture taken? how was it taken? theres no way he would have that much technology in jail. Because he's in jail
Dawg.
Dawg.
Dawg.
Dawg.
AKTUALLY he received a suspended sentence.
I noticed something within the music: The more it looped, the more the echo channel started to desync - just like in Flying Battery Act 1!
and also big arms/final boss
Sonic 3C never ended up releasing yet Sonic 3D (Blast) did…!
When will you do the SK zones for S3 prototype???
All in due time.
Still waiting on Sonic 3E...
I guess you'll have to settle for Sonic 3K?
Talk to me when Sonic 3Z comes out.
At least we got Sonic 3D
Wait a minute, no-
C’mon, where’s our Sonic 3DD?
Where's Sonic 3F smh
Dude, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is exactly 4MB, NOT 4.25. Those 4MB include "Sonic 2" code.
Magazines at the time advertised Sonic 3 & Knuckles as a 34Mbit ROM. Technically, you are correct - only 4MB is ever loaded into the ROM address space. But if you were to count the physical data on the cartridge itself like they did back in the day, you would get a total size of 4.25Mb. This additional 2Mbit chip is only used in Knuckles in Sonic 2, as I mentioned in the video.
Can you cite your source regarding the SVP integration?
Sure, I got it from "The Story of Sonic Team - 1997 Developer Interview". It should be easy to find with a search.
I like the credits in Limited Edition better than s3&K
Sonic 3C (ROmhack) Vs. Sonic 3 A.I.R.
Both ;-;
I thought they meant Sonic 3C (Sonic 3 Complete)
good video
Thank you!
hypeeeee
“CANCELLED”
Or is it…?
It- It is
@@TuxerTuxar or... is it?
Sonic 3 canned edition
I don't watch videos to read man
Watch something else then.
Why you even comment?