I completely forgot to add that detail back into my notes but that's why it's at C. Divine Guardian has no spells but the Troth ability gives it a different playstyle while WotHL has no spells and I don't think the Cloud distinguishes it from base Paladin all that much.
@@SlanderedGaming Divine Guardian is very viable if you use the horse from divine bond in combination with divine troth, that is very tanky. Beside of that the dog/wolf is one of the best animal companion in the game but the paladin's warmount is better. At level 11 it gains the celestial template giving it elemental resistance against acid, cold and electricity, damage reduction 10/- which is cumulative with bulwark and it's own pool of smite evil. And at level 15 it gains spell resistance 11 + paladin-level. If you take into consideration that the war horse's smite evil is cumulative with mark of justice you realise against evil creatures no animal companion is as tanky and damaging as the paladin's divine mount.
Speaking of Seelah, on my first playthrough, I managed to make her a hellknight and it was pretty funny to see her chastise Regill while being one herself.
Also, I had never heard the word "Troth" before this class, but looking it up it's related to betrothed! It's an archaic word for a pledge, especially a marriage pledge, so that's why we still have betrothed. Certainly gives it flavor if nothing else.
Another reason people wont play paladin, is the angel path which is its natural mythic path of choice, works much much better with Oracle or cleric. Oh well.
Go Trickster. It synergizes with a martial focused class better, plus it opens up legend path if you want to diverge from trickster later. Legend is perfectly suitable for a paladin.
I don't think Seelah's existence should be a problem, fortunately we got her at level one, so we can change her from level 2 to pretty much any melee class except barbarian. My favorite option is to make her a Demonslayer ranger shield bashing machine, in any case there are a lot of ways to have her and a paladin mc and both be completly different.
I agree that you can but I disagree that more than 5% of the player base actually does. You can look through the comments here and see the vast majority of people concur with my assessment that most people just stick with Seelah as a Paladin and skip the class.
I like the Paladin class in WotR. It feels "right" (just like the Cleric) story-wise. Unless you choose Lich path of course. Keep up the great work, Slandered , really appreciate your videos! Best on youtube!
Played the game for the first time with Seelah, and wow you ain't kidding. The entire playthrough just feels more 'stable' with paladin tankiness and auras. Seelah never dies! Her horse does sometimes, but she just gets back up ready to go. She would have made a really fun romance option. At least she's always down for a beer. Great paladin representation. Anyway, happy Spring.
everyone romanceable are either ancient or terrible people(looking at you too Sos, don't think I didn't realize you were w/your side piece the entire time?). Seelah would have been the only good stable somewhat normal relationship.
This is the class I've been waiting to hear your opinion on the most, especially with just how strong base Paladin is in this adventure path. I know my opinions on the class, but always fun to hear someone else's take. My personal favourite archetype is the Stonelord just for the flavour of it. Not nearly as good as base Paladin but I still love it
Paladins are another S+ tier for me. Their smites stack, so even if you have multiple paladins, it doesnt matter, they still get their respective bonuses if say two paladins smite the same target. Also mark of justice can be stacked in the same fashion. Ever seen an arcanist magic missile something for 40 damage 5 times in a row with a level 1 spell? Its because mark of justice can be stacked and abused. That and the fact that over 90% of the enemies you fight in this campaign are chaotic and/or evil, plus the paladin gets a free fully leveled mount he can ride on so he can focus on only two stats (str and cha), paladin is S++ in my book. I've ran a campaign with 3 paladins in my merc custom party and it was actually disgustingly broken. For added insult to injury, you can also subclass into hellknight for their specific smite ability and guess what, it also stacks with their own smite lol. The other paladins trade off significant things for their abilities. I'd rank them all lower than the base paladin. The only reason I dont rank paladin as high as I do say oracle sorcerer or cleric in terms of power is that they're cucked by alignment which can be annoying especially for the main character. I've heard of people losing their lawful good nature by taking nothing but good context menu options which can be very annoying, but there are scrolls of atonement to help deal with that issue I guess. Its honestly the only down side I see for the paladin class. The best mythic path for the paladin in my eyes is probably trickster mythic path which will mess with your alignment is the main reason I brought this up. Legend also is absolutely devastating of a path to follow.
@@SlanderedGaming Why not? As I stated, all of your smites stack with hers, as well as mark of justice. Its not an issue. In fact, I'd say its a bonus to run Seelah with your MC as 2 paladins. The only world I would rank a paladin as a C ranked class, is if I'm playing another game altogether like Kingmaker where the majority of enemies you fight are neutral. In this campaign, everything is evil or chaotic (or both).
@@aylictal There’s just too many class options and characters to run with 2 paladins in one party. In my opinion. I’d wager few people would do it. But it would definitely be strong.
@@quincymims2580 And many of those classes abilities dont stack. You want to run a sensei and a bard? Too bad, their songs dont stack. Want to use a clerics guarded hearth and a bard song? Too bad those dont stack. Want to run a martyr and a bard? Too bad their songs dont stack. How about a monk wisdom to AC bonus with instinctual warrior wisdom to AC bonus? Doesnt stack. What about bless + heroism +good hope +greater heroism? None of these abilities and examples stack. Guess what does stack? Smite evil, mark of justice, and smite chaos. Guess what else stacks? Pets (as well as outflank/seize the moment procs from said pets, and attack of opportunities).
My main playthrough was with Warrior of Holy Light. And yes, I benched Seelah (not because she's a bad party member, but simply because I wanted my main to be a paladin and as you noted two paladins is redundant.) Because WoHL doesn't cast spells (as others have already noted) you dump every single attribute point into Strength and Charisma, keeping Con at around 14, and treat every other stat as a dump stat. If you do this WOHL becomes a nearly unstoppable machine that is capable of absolutely wrecking boss encounters right up in their faces. Think of WOHL basically like a hard-hitting fighter but with a whole bunch of extra defenses and immunities, the best saving throws in the game, and a party wide buff that remains useful right up to the endgame.
Yes, I built it with this assembly: 16-13-14-10-10-17 and put all the points in charisma. Bosses had fun getting Marked and Crushed, resulting in a Charisma modifier of 12.
Martyr and Stonelord definitely have interesting potential. Stonelord gives me strong monk multiclass vibes, especially since they both require lawful alignment, so I'm thinking of one of the pre Danny Rand Iron Fists who upheld the code of K'un-Lun while wandering the realms in search of disciples to carry on their teachings. I remember trying Divine Guardian in Kingmaker because I thought it would be an interesting way to play Paladin by designating them as the defender of one of the squishier party members and then being less than impressed with it, since I could never find a situation where protecting a single ally seemed valuable.
why are so many of these subclass gimped so hard? then at the end you have holy warrior of light which is legitimately a strict upgrade over the base class and loses nothing. that game balance is nuts.
Some of these subclasses are definitely whack but FYI I completely missed that HWoL gets no spellcasting so it's definitely not an upgrade over Paladin. I'll correct that in the summary vid.
my very first playthrough was a paladin. He's definetly not a C rank class considering ure only fighting demons. A pally can do a lot , esspecially in this setting. And having bot mc and seelah does definetly not diminish the class.
It doesn't diminish the class but it definitely creates a situation where 95% of players are not going to choose it. If there's no reason to take a class I cannot put it higher than C.
@@SlanderedGaming well , at that point u're talking variety , not necesarily viability. Hilariously enough , i had a playthrough with 6 pallys in the party on core as well. I was going full deus vult in that crusade trying to rp as a templar knight lol. You need high use magic device on most of said pallies ofc , but hilariously enough , it was nowhere near as bad as i thought it would go. I swiched it out in the end , because the lack of high level arcane magic was starting to get annoying , but i've played a serious amount of time in the game with it , and as i said , it was nowhere near as bad as i expected. The reality is that a pally usually comes with a pet associated , and imo any class that can get a mount , is by default not weaker then B+
When I played Kingmaker, I used a Hospitaler paladin with some vivisectionist levels as my character. It was great in that game, but in this one Daeran makes everyone else's channel positive energy abilities look like garbage in comparison. Especially true with the Midnight Isles DLC, because you can buy a circlet that increases it by 4d6, and a mask available in the first voyage gives him +6 to wisdom and charisma. That said, I think that while you are correct in a vacuum, since there are up to two other paladins available for your party if you are playing as one yourself, Smite and Mark of Justice would be redundant. Pick an archetype without Smite and have Seelah in the party, problem solved. If it were me, I would go Martyr, for 2 reasons. First, the only bard in the party is Lich specific and only available late game, and second, I also agree that the idea of Stigmata pairs perfectly with your wound that opens and closes on its own.
Regarding warrior the holy light, I initially made the same mistake as you as the character creation menu doesnt clearly highlight this, but they lose spellcasting. Otherwise, yes, it would be a clear upgrader over paladin, but the aura effect is nowhere near strong enough to off set the loss of casting.
Stonelord's defensive stance will halt your mount as well. I really recommend the mercy to remove fatigue, so you can drop the stance to reposition and then reactivate it. Reach weapons are a must-have for the sub-class as well.
I enjoy warrior of the holy light as a simple build, but it has 2 major weaknesses lack of spells, and every action it performs is a standard action preventing full attacks. If you combine holy light with vital strike you can get most of the damage output spam your abilities and if on a horse even move. At the cost of going critical multi-tasking heavy. Making it almost like a debuffer.
Yeah I used clumsy wording during the video in saying that it's better than Paladin because it's not. I mean to say the Cloud provides a slightly different playstyle so there's a case for ranking it above C.
I think you are right on the money with Martyr. Mechanically it replicates enough of a Bard so I think you can justify another Paladin in the party aside from Seelah. But more importantly thematically it is great. I enjoy playing the class as a Joan of Arc type character. Where instead of formal training as a Paladin they were from an unassuming background and one day chosen for a task.
I tend to agree. Seelah isnt perfect, but she is good enough to make the prospect of a pure paladin distinctly unappealing. Mark of justice makes stacking paladins as silly as stacking skalds, unless you go for a non smiting archetype. On the other hand, it can be a very good 2 level dip for a charisma based tank.
On Warrior of Holy Light - it lacks spells, so that's bad, but I find myself REALLY liking the lvl 12 Power of Faith ability of Resistance 30 for all elemental types. My typical approach on elemental resistance is to cast one or two of the five with my spellcasters, e.g., just fire and lightning, depending on scenario. But when walking into an encounter where the bad guys are flinging acid or sonic - or a surprise encounter where I haven't had a chance to do my buff spells for the day - it's a huge bonus to automatically resist everything on everyone with a single button click (on top of all the other bonuses which stack). As for dumping Seelah, I don't dump her. I just say, "I'm the paladin this run" and set her to dirge bard or skald, and I take care of the Paladin work instead of her. As for Paladin spells I find myself rarely using the Paladin spell list. The spells are decent, and some are quite good at high level, but my typical go-to strategy is going to be "hit bad guys", click Smite Evil for nasty bad guy, and Mark of Justice for very nasty bad guy. I already got buffed by the team's casters, I already have a holy sword, so why am I going to spend a standard action or two on a situational spell? The Power of Faith ability is much less micromanagement, which I like. The extra Lay On Hands also helps immensely with the typical tasks I have for my Paladin, like removing blindness, curses, and other annoying status effects for the party, and makes being a backup healer easier since I have more heals. I think losing spellcasting is a fair trade that fits with my playstyle.
Agreed I worded that incorrectly. I feel like the Cloud distinguishes it slightly from base Paladin but it's still not worth selecting so I ranked it at C.
Seems kind of odd to knock the class so much because a companion fills the role already. Fighter/oracle/cleric didn't get knocked down like that and I could argue 2 paladins can have more synergy than 2 fighters.
Wenduag is Evil and mutually exclusive with another party member so I could easily see you not having her. Daeran is forced into the Life Mystery so it absolutely still makes sense to choose another Oracle if you wanted something different. Sosiel has a mediocre starting build and he only works with Good aligned parties. Seelah doesn't have any of those drawbacks.
Sure, but that still leaves enough not annoying characters to fill my party without her. Woltjif is worse than Seelah but I don't use either.@@dezzywikins
As my first full playthrough of Kingmaker was done on a Lawful Neutral 2H Paladin, I got to say, that the class works out great, along a certain baseline but honestly does lack a bit of a specific hook to it. Most of the time I just felt like a Jon-Doe-Fighter with a cleric dip.
@@SlanderedGaming I get it, although I find paladin can be really good as a two handed fighter. I use seelah as a tank as I find playing a tank to be boring :P at least without a mythic path, tower shield specialist is boring ... until you add aeon to it or devil, then Its a blast. mythic paths add sooo much to the game, are you going to redo your mythic path videos ? or take a break ?
Ok, just curious. If you had to make a full party of Paladins(no duplicates), what would you pick? I'd say a Stonelord, a Divine Guardian, a Divine Scion, a base Paladin, a Marytr and a Warrior of the Holy light.
I never thought about using it, but watching this video made me think about a "ranged-centric" party with the Divine Hunter. For example 4 ranged characters (maybe Lann, Aru, Daeran and Ember or Nenio) and 2 melee characters. Then having Lann or the MC replacing him as a Divine Hunter and simply disregard the need for those ranged feats. And have like 4 pets helping out with the melee. In this specific case it would even make sense to have a second paladin as one of the melee chars, so that you still have MoJ.
Just wanna point out that, if you use divine hunters precision ability well, you've probably saved your spellcasters 2 feats. That's greater spell focus in an extra school
That's true but I feel like you want those feats 24/7. You cannot control the initiative order and don't want a situation where your mages go first but they don't have the feats because your Paladin hasn't got a hit in yet.
I'm curious what you're ranking would be for base paladin if Seelah wasn't an option? Love this series that you're doing, I have jotted down a lot of ideas for future playthroughs because of it.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this - but you keep saying Death Kneel in all these videos. Kneel has two E's. It's pronouned like Nell. The K is silent. It's spelled with two L's. Not putting you down or anything, just trying to help. I mostly like Pally for the 3 point dip with a Scaled Fist. Divine Grace stacks your saves with your AC bonus from charisma so it's a nice synergy. I've really only considered taking Seelah to 8 paladin because I wanted to test her with Gendarme at 12. Mostly I have her take a 3 point dip to Scaled Fist for movement speed and Saves, take Pally at 4 max for channeling (usually 3 though - as Channeling I can do with Saucy, and Ember as a divine herbalist gets the next best thing to lay on hands) Then I put on 2 primalist to gain Uncanny Dodge so she doesn't loose her bonus' and take Dragon Disciple to 6 = if I don't want My Little Pony re-runs in my head lol. [My sister made me watch it. We liked very different shows growing up] * Shoulld mention if it hasn't been covered; movement speed bonus' from different classes DO stack. So you can make someone pretty mobile if you can get at least 2, with light armor build. The restriction on Monk means you're not getting Barbarian for it as well, which kind of sucks... but you can do as many as three in one Toon.
@@SlanderedGaming Hey you managed to get through every mythic path playthrough - so as a Lich master of Death, I should definitely Kneel ; ) * I'm still trying to get through one playthrough. I feel good about my attempt at Gold dragon - which I've named the save file Dragon's Dogma!
@Slandered Gaming I bring Seelah with most runs, she's an effective tank and with the Steed Divine Bond even more so. Usually I make Paladin’s with Damage in mind so I make a combo to be the Hammer while she is the Anvil.
Call me crazy, but I liked Warrior of the Holy Light. That party wide buff was really cool, and I never picked Paladins because they could cast spells anyways.
How do you give paladin base a C but divine hunter a B- ? Lol sorry but base paladin is easily A to S tier especially when an angel paladin. Yes if you have your paladin and and seelah in the same party then I agree the rating drops to B or C.
Your last sentence makes it clear you agree with my ranking. The player gets Seelah right from the start so there is no reason to pick this class and therefore it drops to a C. If Seelah was not available as a party member than yes it would be an S ranked class.
Having Seelah really does make any MC paladin redundant. And I'd argue that the base paladin makes as good a ranged archer as Divine Hunter and keeps mark of justice. It's a shame too because being a Angel Paladin just sounds badass. But Crusader Cleric fits that role better with it's merged spell book.
I just finished my Core run through with an Aasimar Battle/Ancients Oracle Angel and it was bonkers how strong the build was. I felt sorry for poor Seelah since everything was always already dead by the time she got to the party.
@@stephencnunez Seelah should be mounted and charge into the party but yeah a blaster Oracle/Angel has already nuked the area from orbit if they went first.
@@SlanderedGaming Primarily because while paladin does very good dmg in its own right, the reason most people including myself take paladin is to complete the checklist of a well stocked party, very similiar to cleric. Cleric can be played offensively as well as a pure healer, but many times people just have cleric in the team so that it can - again - tick a checkbox in the capable party list. It's needed but not fun, which is why for paladin is much better roleplaying-wise than it really is any other way, all those classes you ranked, I agree with gameplay wise, but rp-wise - hospitalier for example is great as not a cliche paladin, but someone who can put in a little fighting but is much treating someone's wounds after combat, like a medieval combat medic, as infact many paladins in the lore are, rather than fighters. Stuff like that makes me just focus on min max, and take the needed self dip of lvl 3 or the longer haul mark of justice lvl 11 dip.
Giving the base class a C seems a little off to me. None of the good subclasses maintain the majority of what the base class offers -- they're all significantly different. So giving it a C makes it seem like there are strictly better subclass options (like Dirge Bard over base Bard), but that isn't the case. Like, you give Divine Guardian a B, but then immediately say it's worse than the base class, which is a C. Huh?
If you had payed attention he said that the base class got a C because there is no need to lv.20 the class with a KC as you already gain access to base class Paladin right from the start in Seelah. I too also believe the base Paladin is S rank but I know I would never pick it in a game with access to it so early on
I believe these rankings to be spot on for 90% of the content but this one is the worst. Base Paladin is by far the best choice. Divine hunter should be an F and unless you consider various dips (3 divine guardian for instance) it’s not even close (not counting stone-lord’s race specific choice).
Like Orsik said the class is rated C because 90% of players are not going to take it since you get Seelah right from the start. If Seelah was not an option then Paladin would be S rank. We have consistently rated classes C even if they were good if it was obvious players would never pick it.
@@SlanderedGaming I dont understand why you'd say that. You gave base oracle an A while daeran is in the game and can be got pretty early. But you give paladins a C because seelah is a paladin? Eh?
While i found the choice of giving base class/archetypes non-related rating a bit strange, i do see the point of it: there are many ways to build oracles, while paladins tend to be quite similar. As a main you usually don't select life mystery as an oracle, and most of the oracle's identity comes from its mystery choice (many builds end up getting nature and battle mysteries).
Hah, you start this one as human but are switched to dwarf by stonelord. Did you record this before Oracle? It seemed different you started that one with dwarf from the start.
Stonelord requires you to be a Dwarf. I recorded this after Oracle but I was looking through it before I recorded Oracle so that's probably why I would be a Dwarf.
I just discovered your channel as I’m getting into WotR on console. I’ve watched some of your build videos for like Bloodrager into dragon, and the Crusader… but could you please make a Paladin build? Paladin is my fav class and I want to make one that utilizes mounted combat on the warhorse, with sword and shield. And (for a bonus,) do you have a Crusader Mounted build that can act like a Paladin but doesn’t have to be LG? Thanks so much!
@@SlanderedGaming Thanks for the reply brother! I really appreciate (and see) that you reply to everyone. I'm loving WotR but I'm stuck at the part before the fight at the inn haha I like to run a custom party, and I'm making 6 merc's and will sub in companions for quests -- but it's hard to find the right group. I've toyed around with: Paladin, Viv/Sacred Huntsman, Dirge Bard, Elemental Wizard, Orcale on a wolf and Zen Archer/Demon Slayer. But as soon as I think I've landed on a team, I find a new idea or something that pulls me away --- I really want to play the game! haha
Warrior of Holy light is a good class to multi with. Also I never really used paladin spell. With a cleric on the team a lot of times they can cover what I dont have.
Slandered, Seelah died in the tunnels beneath Kenabres, you have to let her go, it wasn't your fault. 🤣 Seriously though, I love Seelah, I think she's great, but unless you were planning on doing a hard-as-nails unforgiving type Paladin that's closer to Aeon than Angel and would dismiss Seelah from the party it's really hard to say that you need another paladin. I don't think having more mark of justice around is necessarily a BAD thing since you could use it on more enemies, but why not just diversify your party more?
Surprising to see Divine Hunter, which gives up a lot for meh ranged abilities, get rated so much higher than Divine Scion, which gives up similar things for an ability that almost makes up for it and a lot of extra damage. Not great overall but a Paladin/Slayer is definitely stronger than Paladin/half-assed Ranger. Having access to a horse is also not as make or break for a Paladin as other classes that can get pets, Divine Weapon Bond is always useful and they're really tanky on their own, so it's mainly just movement speed. Hospitaler is also a good archetype. There's no reason a Paladin with good channel energy ability couldn't be a party healer. Have someone w Heal for emergencies and you're fine for most of the game. And, like... yes, if you main a Paladin you could totally leave Seelah on the bench and bring some extra damage along, or just roll w 2 Paladins side by side as your frontline if you really want to.
Divine Scion doesn't get a pet. :) Also I don't rate classes in different brackets between each other. So Divine Hunter is rated against Hunter while Divine Scion is rated against Paladin. Hospitaler loses Mark of Justice and multiple Smite rankings. Again the archetype's are rated against the base class and that loss is extremely difficult to overcome. Two Paladin's is redundant and having them both on your team really doesn't help you. The vast majority of players are not doing this.
I think this is the only instance where I think your base class ranking is right out to lunch! Paladin is an A base class and I don't think it's particularly close. Here's why you're wrong :) - Not everyone will want to have Seela in their party, especially on evil playthroughs (Seela's your eBae and you know you're biased!) - There's enough diversity in mercies and auras between subclasses to avoid significant overlap when running more than one paladin - Mark of Justice is game-breakingly strong. While they don't stack with one another the limited uses mean having multiple paladins being able to use them throughout a dungeon is most welcome, ESPECIALLY on higher difficulties - As a base they're a full BAB class with access to fully levelled pets, martial weapon and all armor proficiencies, the best class ability in the game (smite/mark of justice), arguably the best defensive passives in the game (aura of courage, divine grace, immunities) and divine casting - Makes one of, if not, THE best 2-level dip in the entire game
LMFAO -You must be Lawful Good to level in Paladin so evil parties cannot take the class. -Not if you both have the base Paladin which is what I ranked as C -No the solution to low Mark of Justice uses is to focus on Charisma which is what I do when levelling Seelah -Agreed in my opinion Paladin is S+ if Seelah is not in the game -Dips don't count for the ranking :)
You mean take a bunch of made adventurers as a paladins while your PC is evil? That's weird lore wise. guess if your doing some min/max meta play on unfair it works but why would they follow him?
@@SlanderedGaming Lol I should have written it better, my first point wasn't about the paladin class specifically it was about not always wanting Seela in the party in general. I shouldn't have had it as a bullet but a separate comment, though you'd probably have downvoted it to hell as blasphemy xD
abit confused at 2:28 you say divine guardian isn't better than the base class, but at the end you give the divine guardian a higher score than base class? i know this vid is pretty old now so you likely won't see this but i'm confused as to which is better haha
Mechanically Paladin is better than all of it's subclasses except for the new one that was just released. At the same time it doesn't make sense to take Paladin since Seelah already has it and two of them is a crowd. Divine Guardian has mechanics that are different enough from base Paladin that it makes sense to take it and since it is of more use to the actual player I rate it higher.
ahh okay so base paladin is better but since you already have one, if you wanted a second paladin for some reason then divine guadrdian > base class, makes sense now thanks! @@SlanderedGaming
I simply stick with Seelah. At level 4, I dip her into Beast Tamer Cavalier to pick up Smokey, her boar, then use her Level 5 Paladin afterward to get him all caught up. Makes for a great tanky front line when she can't get hit, and she can Lay On Hands him while riding him to keep him going!
You really can’t fathom someone keeping Seelah on the bench :p I don’t think you considered that someone would dislike her personality and would not want to use that precious 6th slot on her when there are so many interesting companions. Personally, playing a paladin is actually very tempting exactly because I can leave her on the bench while still having a paladin in the group.
@@SlanderedGaming she’s uh…”gee whiz, golly gee adventure awaits!” character. Painfully generic and theater-kid acted. I would much rather have an interesting character like Camellia or Daeran or Regill along for the ride. Even Sosiel seems like he might have more potential (haven’t beaten the game yet). Just seems like they went ultra-generic and safe with Seelah.
@@SlanderedGaming in the table top you can often stack multiple archetypes so long as they don't override the same abilities. I like stacking Divine Hunter with Holy Guide. Basically becoming a ranger with smite and lay on hands. It's a lot of fun.
I'm just going to do what i do with every other game that gives me a companion that uses the class I'm interested in and change her class/ dismiss her in the first opportunity I get. Sorry Seelah, I'll make sure you stick around in my next playthrough.
I think I like the Divine Guardian for my first play through. I want someone warrior or divine focused as I think they would lead a crusade since the game forces you into that. Why would an alchemist, druid, rogue or bard be leading a crusade. That is one thing this game and kingmaker did I was not fond of, forcing me into a more lawful role, or being unrealistic. I was rather disappointed the 2h fighter was so poor as I would be playing this as a 2h Fighter.
Yeah. I have to say Paladin suffers from exactly what you said: Seelah. I even have a mod that lets me respec companions from rank 1, and I still just kept Seelah as a base Paladin, because everything else felt like it sacrificed too much (I was *tempted* to make her a martyr, but I didn't feel it really 'fit' her). So I don't really see msyelf ever using any of the Paladin subclasses (I might make Seelah a Martyr eventually if I do a playthrough where I'm utterly bored with her as a Paladin, just for a change, but even that likely wouldn't happen). It's something of a shame, actually. A MC Paladin would fit the story fantastically, but as you say, you don't need 2, and Seelah being a Paladin is too ingrained in her character to comfortably make her anything else rp-wise (I mean, *maybe* I could stretch to Cleric-Crusader, but I'd really have to hold my nose as I did it and her stats don't really work well for it).
I've always considered the paladin subclasses to be pretty seriously underwhelming. There are a couple that you could maybe dip a level or two into, but most of them are pretty awful. Some of them are slightly more viable here than in the tabletop version, and some of them are worse than in the tabletop version. Notably, losing out on spells, while still a huge detriment, is much less crippling here because the game doesn't have some of the best paladin spells, such as litany of righteousness. The horse bond is also much better here than in the tabletop, mostly because of how absurd the numbers can get for things like AC, as well as the fact that it doesn't seem like you can just purchase a mount. For context, the most intimidating stat block in the entirety of the tabletop game is Lucifer, who im pretty sure is homebrew, is CR 39 and has an AC of 74, and most late game bosses in this game have 80 AC.
We all have that one class that we absolutely do not care for. For me that class happens to be the Paladin. I hated the class yesterday. I hate the class tomorrow.
I don't entirely agree with how you evaluate the Martyr. It's not a replacement for a base Paladin - it's not a melee beatstick. It's a Paladin-Bard hybrid, and it fills the Bard's role in the party - a frontline secondary fighter whose key utility is in buffing the rest of the party.
The ranking structure requires that the archtypes get compared to the base class. Even though it's not technically a Paladin replacement I still look at what Martyr provides in comparison with Paladin.
I think if you pick paladin you're specifically not going to bring Seelah outside companion quests. I'd guess people watching these videos like your voice and they like wrath but its not like they don't know about Seelah. Paladin is A+ class for people who know about Seelah
The question is if you value having a Paladin in your team are you actually rolling a separate Paladin and leaving Seelah on the bench? My answer is that 90%+ of players are not doing that and therefore the class is really just filling up a slot regardless of it's mechanics.
@@SlanderedGaming Dunno, we're like a year from the official release. I think people know what classes the companions have at this point or even if they're new they can look them up without many spoilers. Like I think Shadow Shaman is up there for most versatile and powerful class but Cammy exists and her subclass covers most of the same ground. So if you want to be a shaman you don't bring her. She's probably in at least 80% of parties. When she's not its because people recognise she's a serial killer or they're playing a shaman themselves. I like Seelah but if I wanted to play a paladin she's warming the bench
i would just like to say that thematically warrior of the holy light makes the most sense if you go with angel because in angel all your powers come from light from within your soul and about Sila there are people like me who chose companions based on roleplay people like me will have soriel sila and ember in one party and plus having multiple healers can be very helpful when you take a lot of damage
personally i never liked this class, i think paladins are boring, and i hate good character, plus it's just a weaker version of fighter, combined with a weaker version of Cleric (yes, it has smite evil and mark of justice, but i think you can pick another class that gives better buffs overall). And when i make a character, i spend a lot of time optimizing the hell out of character creator, and i make more "focused" builds, so fighter feats are invaluable (or cleric's spellbook, with crusader feats).
Out of the topic, I just found out that if you use "Bane of spirit" ring, every damage you do is Force damage, and that including every elemental enchantment on your weapon, means with that ring, you never need any Ascendent Elements and just make all your fire, ice and electric became FORCE elements!
@@SlanderedGaming well, i just use it on those annoying 0.5 damage enemies. Oh yeah, forgot you are not into turn based, which yeah, but that item is free action so it activate instantly, just pause, use it, and kill those annoying enemies in no time.
You missed a key point about the warrior of the holy light. They don’t get paladin spells. No spells at all. That’s their major downside.
I completely forgot to add that detail back into my notes but that's why it's at C. Divine Guardian has no spells but the Troth ability gives it a different playstyle while WotHL has no spells and I don't think the Cloud distinguishes it from base Paladin all that much.
@@SlanderedGaming Divine Guardian is very viable if you use the horse from divine bond in combination with divine troth, that is very tanky.
Beside of that the dog/wolf is one of the best animal companion in the game but the paladin's warmount is better. At level 11 it gains the celestial template giving it elemental resistance against acid, cold and electricity, damage reduction 10/- which is cumulative with bulwark and it's own pool of smite evil. And at level 15 it gains spell resistance 11 + paladin-level.
If you take into consideration that the war horse's smite evil is cumulative with mark of justice you realise against evil creatures no animal companion is as tanky and damaging as the paladin's divine mount.
Speaking of Seelah, on my first playthrough, I managed to make her a hellknight and it was pretty funny to see her chastise Regill while being one herself.
😂😂
It's nice to see funny hypocrisy rather than depressing hypocrisy. 😀
Also, I had never heard the word "Troth" before this class, but looking it up it's related to betrothed! It's an archaic word for a pledge, especially a marriage pledge, so that's why we still have betrothed. Certainly gives it flavor if nothing else.
Thank you! I also had never heard of it and was wondering where the word came from.
Another reason people wont play paladin, is the angel path which is its natural mythic path of choice, works much much better with Oracle or cleric. Oh well.
Agreed.
Go Trickster. It synergizes with a martial focused class better, plus it opens up legend path if you want to diverge from trickster later. Legend is perfectly suitable for a paladin.
I kinda wanted to do a caviler angel run some day. A Holy warrior with a holy steed.
@@aylictal eww. A chaotic trickery mythic for a lawful good pillar of justice? No.
@@davidburnett5049 what do you think seelah's story is about? that same scenario more or less.
I don't think Seelah's existence should be a problem, fortunately we got her at level one, so we can change her from level 2 to pretty much any melee class except barbarian. My favorite option is to make her a Demonslayer ranger shield bashing machine, in any case there are a lot of ways to have her and a paladin mc and both be completly different.
I agree that you can but I disagree that more than 5% of the player base actually does. You can look through the comments here and see the vast majority of people concur with my assessment that most people just stick with Seelah as a Paladin and skip the class.
I like the Paladin class in WotR. It feels "right" (just like the Cleric) story-wise. Unless you choose Lich path of course. Keep up the great work, Slandered , really appreciate your videos! Best on youtube!
Thank you!
@@SlanderedGaming just the truth!
Played the game for the first time with Seelah, and wow you ain't kidding. The entire playthrough just feels more 'stable' with paladin tankiness and auras. Seelah never dies! Her horse does sometimes, but she just gets back up ready to go.
She would have made a really fun romance option. At least she's always down for a beer. Great paladin representation.
Anyway, happy Spring.
Yup she makes everything better. LOL
everyone romanceable are either ancient or terrible people(looking at you too Sos, don't think I didn't realize you were w/your side piece the entire time?). Seelah would have been the only good stable somewhat normal relationship.
This is the class I've been waiting to hear your opinion on the most, especially with just how strong base Paladin is in this adventure path. I know my opinions on the class, but always fun to hear someone else's take. My personal favourite archetype is the Stonelord just for the flavour of it. Not nearly as good as base Paladin but I still love it
Yup I think Stonelord looks fantastic.
Paladins are another S+ tier for me. Their smites stack, so even if you have multiple paladins, it doesnt matter, they still get their respective bonuses if say two paladins smite the same target. Also mark of justice can be stacked in the same fashion. Ever seen an arcanist magic missile something for 40 damage 5 times in a row with a level 1 spell? Its because mark of justice can be stacked and abused. That and the fact that over 90% of the enemies you fight in this campaign are chaotic and/or evil, plus the paladin gets a free fully leveled mount he can ride on so he can focus on only two stats (str and cha), paladin is S++ in my book. I've ran a campaign with 3 paladins in my merc custom party and it was actually disgustingly broken. For added insult to injury, you can also subclass into hellknight for their specific smite ability and guess what, it also stacks with their own smite lol.
The other paladins trade off significant things for their abilities. I'd rank them all lower than the base paladin. The only reason I dont rank paladin as high as I do say oracle sorcerer or cleric in terms of power is that they're cucked by alignment which can be annoying especially for the main character. I've heard of people losing their lawful good nature by taking nothing but good context menu options which can be very annoying, but there are scrolls of atonement to help deal with that issue I guess. Its honestly the only down side I see for the paladin class. The best mythic path for the paladin in my eyes is probably trickster mythic path which will mess with your alignment is the main reason I brought this up. Legend also is absolutely devastating of a path to follow.
I agree with Paladin's being S+, I just don't think anybody is going to choose it with Seelah being available.
@@SlanderedGaming Why not? As I stated, all of your smites stack with hers, as well as mark of justice. Its not an issue. In fact, I'd say its a bonus to run Seelah with your MC as 2 paladins. The only world I would rank a paladin as a C ranked class, is if I'm playing another game altogether like Kingmaker where the majority of enemies you fight are neutral. In this campaign, everything is evil or chaotic (or both).
@@aylictal There’s just too many class options and characters to run with 2 paladins in one party. In my opinion. I’d wager few people would do it. But it would definitely be strong.
@@quincymims2580 And many of those classes abilities dont stack. You want to run a sensei and a bard? Too bad, their songs dont stack. Want to use a clerics guarded hearth and a bard song? Too bad those dont stack. Want to run a martyr and a bard? Too bad their songs dont stack. How about a monk wisdom to AC bonus with instinctual warrior wisdom to AC bonus? Doesnt stack. What about bless + heroism +good hope +greater heroism? None of these abilities and examples stack.
Guess what does stack? Smite evil, mark of justice, and smite chaos. Guess what else stacks? Pets (as well as outflank/seize the moment procs from said pets, and attack of opportunities).
@@aylictal I know - I’m simply saying most people want distinctiveness in their party when you’re presented with 199 options.
My main playthrough was with Warrior of Holy Light. And yes, I benched Seelah (not because she's a bad party member, but simply because I wanted my main to be a paladin and as you noted two paladins is redundant.)
Because WoHL doesn't cast spells (as others have already noted) you dump every single attribute point into Strength and Charisma, keeping Con at around 14, and treat every other stat as a dump stat. If you do this WOHL becomes a nearly unstoppable machine that is capable of absolutely wrecking boss encounters right up in their faces. Think of WOHL basically like a hard-hitting fighter but with a whole bunch of extra defenses and immunities, the best saving throws in the game, and a party wide buff that remains useful right up to the endgame.
Nice! That actually sounds like a really fun playthrough.
Yes, I built it with this assembly: 16-13-14-10-10-17 and put all the points in charisma. Bosses had fun getting Marked and Crushed, resulting in a Charisma modifier of 12.
I'm actually eager to try martyr. Seems real cool too. Being the inspiration of good to your people sounds really cool
Yup it's really nice.
The only mounted Bard in the Game!
@@PsychCaptain ooooh even better. Now that has me sold even more
Martyr and Stonelord definitely have interesting potential.
Stonelord gives me strong monk multiclass vibes, especially since they both require lawful alignment, so I'm thinking of one of the pre Danny Rand Iron Fists who upheld the code of K'un-Lun while wandering the realms in search of disciples to carry on their teachings.
I remember trying Divine Guardian in Kingmaker because I thought it would be an interesting way to play Paladin by designating them as the defender of one of the squishier party members and then being less than impressed with it, since I could never find a situation where protecting a single ally seemed valuable.
I loved playing as Martyr it was really awesome for Gold Dragon.
why are so many of these subclass gimped so hard? then at the end you have holy warrior of light which is legitimately a strict upgrade over the base class and loses nothing. that game balance is nuts.
Some of these subclasses are definitely whack but FYI I completely missed that HWoL gets no spellcasting so it's definitely not an upgrade over Paladin. I'll correct that in the summary vid.
@@SlanderedGaming i correct my statement then as well. i retract it in fact.
my very first playthrough was a paladin. He's definetly not a C rank class considering ure only fighting demons. A pally can do a lot , esspecially in this setting. And having bot mc and seelah does definetly not diminish the class.
It doesn't diminish the class but it definitely creates a situation where 95% of players are not going to choose it. If there's no reason to take a class I cannot put it higher than C.
@@SlanderedGaming well , at that point u're talking variety , not necesarily viability. Hilariously enough , i had a playthrough with 6 pallys in the party on core as well.
I was going full deus vult in that crusade trying to rp as a templar knight lol. You need high use magic device on most of said pallies ofc , but hilariously enough , it was nowhere near as bad as i thought it would go. I swiched it out in the end , because the lack of high level arcane magic was starting to get annoying , but i've played a serious amount of time in the game with it , and as i said , it was nowhere near as bad as i expected. The reality is that a pally usually comes with a pet associated , and imo any class that can get a mount , is by default not weaker then B+
Thanks to this video I started a Stonelord today. The archetype had not been on my radar so far.
When I played Kingmaker, I used a Hospitaler paladin with some vivisectionist levels as my character. It was great in that game, but in this one Daeran makes everyone else's channel positive energy abilities look like garbage in comparison. Especially true with the Midnight Isles DLC, because you can buy a circlet that increases it by 4d6, and a mask available in the first voyage gives him +6 to wisdom and charisma.
That said, I think that while you are correct in a vacuum, since there are up to two other paladins available for your party if you are playing as one yourself, Smite and Mark of Justice would be redundant. Pick an archetype without Smite and have Seelah in the party, problem solved. If it were me, I would go Martyr, for 2 reasons. First, the only bard in the party is Lich specific and only available late game, and second, I also agree that the idea of Stigmata pairs perfectly with your wound that opens and closes on its own.
I agree and that's why some of the other archtypes are ranked higher than C. Martyr and Stonelord are definitely valid options.
Regarding warrior the holy light, I initially made the same mistake as you as the character creation menu doesnt clearly highlight this, but they lose spellcasting. Otherwise, yes, it would be a clear upgrader over paladin, but the aura effect is nowhere near strong enough to off set the loss of casting.
Yup I hate that they don't make that more obvious.
Stonelord's defensive stance will halt your mount as well. I really recommend the mercy to remove fatigue, so you can drop the stance to reposition and then reactivate it. Reach weapons are a must-have for the sub-class as well.
Nice good call outs.
I enjoy warrior of the holy light as a simple build, but it has 2 major weaknesses lack of spells, and every action it performs is a standard action preventing full attacks.
If you combine holy light with vital strike you can get most of the damage output spam your abilities and if on a horse even move. At the cost of going critical multi-tasking heavy. Making it almost like a debuffer.
Yeah I used clumsy wording during the video in saying that it's better than Paladin because it's not. I mean to say the Cloud provides a slightly different playstyle so there's a case for ranking it above C.
@@SlanderedGaming sorry I wasn't meaning to criticize it's still an excellent way to play and damage output can be very very similar.
@@thecombativemedic521 Nah you are all good dude the fault was mine. :)
I think you are right on the money with Martyr. Mechanically it replicates enough of a Bard so I think you can justify another Paladin in the party aside from Seelah.
But more importantly thematically it is great. I enjoy playing the class as a Joan of Arc type character. Where instead of formal training as a Paladin they were from an unassuming background and one day chosen for a task.
Great idea to a summary in the end. Thanks!
Thanks! I was against it at first but seems like people really enjoy having that summary so I'll keep doing it.
I tend to agree. Seelah isnt perfect, but she is good enough to make the prospect of a pure paladin distinctly unappealing. Mark of justice makes stacking paladins as silly as stacking skalds, unless you go for a non smiting archetype.
On the other hand, it can be a very good 2 level dip for a charisma based tank.
Yup that was pretty much my perspective.
If I remember correctly your smite can stack with others pal Mark of justice and smite chaos. So two pals are not that useless.
On Warrior of Holy Light - it lacks spells, so that's bad, but I find myself REALLY liking the lvl 12 Power of Faith ability of Resistance 30 for all elemental types. My typical approach on elemental resistance is to cast one or two of the five with my spellcasters, e.g., just fire and lightning, depending on scenario. But when walking into an encounter where the bad guys are flinging acid or sonic - or a surprise encounter where I haven't had a chance to do my buff spells for the day - it's a huge bonus to automatically resist everything on everyone with a single button click (on top of all the other bonuses which stack).
As for dumping Seelah, I don't dump her. I just say, "I'm the paladin this run" and set her to dirge bard or skald, and I take care of the Paladin work instead of her.
As for Paladin spells I find myself rarely using the Paladin spell list. The spells are decent, and some are quite good at high level, but my typical go-to strategy is going to be "hit bad guys", click Smite Evil for nasty bad guy, and Mark of Justice for very nasty bad guy. I already got buffed by the team's casters, I already have a holy sword, so why am I going to spend a standard action or two on a situational spell? The Power of Faith ability is much less micromanagement, which I like. The extra Lay On Hands also helps immensely with the typical tasks I have for my Paladin, like removing blindness, curses, and other annoying status effects for the party, and makes being a backup healer easier since I have more heals. I think losing spellcasting is a fair trade that fits with my playstyle.
Nice that's a setup that definitely works.
Warrior of the Holy light cannot cast spells though. I wouldn't say it is a straight up upgrade over the base paladin at least not in every situation.
Agreed I worded that incorrectly. I feel like the Cloud distinguishes it slightly from base Paladin but it's still not worth selecting so I ranked it at C.
Seems kind of odd to knock the class so much because a companion fills the role already. Fighter/oracle/cleric didn't get knocked down like that and I could argue 2 paladins can have more synergy than 2 fighters.
Wenduag is Evil and mutually exclusive with another party member so I could easily see you not having her. Daeran is forced into the Life Mystery so it absolutely still makes sense to choose another Oracle if you wanted something different. Sosiel has a mediocre starting build and he only works with Good aligned parties. Seelah doesn't have any of those drawbacks.
@@SlanderedGaming Her drawback is that she's annoying.
@@GetterRay no more so than half of the other companions...
Sure, but that still leaves enough not annoying characters to fill my party without her. Woltjif is worse than Seelah but I don't use either.@@dezzywikins
@@GetterRay fair enough
As my first full playthrough of Kingmaker was done on a Lawful Neutral 2H Paladin, I got to say, that the class works out great, along a certain baseline but honestly does lack a bit of a specific hook to it.
Most of the time I just felt like a Jon-Doe-Fighter with a cleric dip.
Yeah Paladin's are fantastic. I might try the class out when I replay Kingmaker.
martyr is not meant to be a tank its more of a support class, its definartly interesting themeticatically depending on the mythic class
Agreed I just talk about it more as a tank since it's being compared to Paladin.
@@SlanderedGaming I get it, although I find paladin can be really good as a two handed fighter. I use seelah as a tank as I find playing a tank to be boring :P
at least without a mythic path, tower shield specialist is boring ... until you add aeon to it or devil, then Its a blast.
mythic paths add sooo much to the game, are you going to redo your mythic path videos ? or take a break ?
It's not as tanky as a traditional Paladin, but that buff applies to your horse, which is nice.
Another great video
Thank you!
Ok, just curious. If you had to make a full party of Paladins(no duplicates), what would you pick?
I'd say a Stonelord, a Divine Guardian, a Divine Scion, a base Paladin, a Marytr and a Warrior of the Holy light.
Base, Stonelord, Martyr, Divine Hunter, Hospitaler, Divine Scion. Two tanks, support, ranged, healer, damage dealer.
I think this would make more sense (and be more diversified) with Cleric or Oracle, no?
awesome series!
I never thought about using it, but watching this video made me think about a "ranged-centric" party with the Divine Hunter. For example 4 ranged characters (maybe Lann, Aru, Daeran and Ember or Nenio) and 2 melee characters. Then having Lann or the MC replacing him as a Divine Hunter and simply disregard the need for those ranged feats.
And have like 4 pets helping out with the melee.
In this specific case it would even make sense to have a second paladin as one of the melee chars, so that you still have MoJ.
One day I might take a Kineticist who is surrounded by mostly ranged characters to see what that is like.
@@SlanderedGaming I'd guess "easy" would be the answer. =)
Maybe even throw in an Alchemist as well.
Just wanna point out that, if you use divine hunters precision ability well, you've probably saved your spellcasters 2 feats. That's greater spell focus in an extra school
That's true but I feel like you want those feats 24/7. You cannot control the initiative order and don't want a situation where your mages go first but they don't have the feats because your Paladin hasn't got a hit in yet.
I'm curious what you're ranking would be for base paladin if Seelah wasn't an option? Love this series that you're doing, I have jotted down a lot of ideas for future playthroughs because of it.
I rank Paladin S+. In my opinion there's a big difference between when Seelah is on my team or when she is not.
@@SlanderedGaming “ok, I should go paladin on lich mythic since I hear Seelah leave... wait why am I evil now”
Well if you're just Role-Playing a run then Paladin angel is really thematic. I also consider stuff like that :)
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this - but you keep saying Death Kneel in all these videos. Kneel has two E's. It's pronouned like Nell. The K is silent. It's spelled with two L's.
Not putting you down or anything, just trying to help.
I mostly like Pally for the 3 point dip with a Scaled Fist. Divine Grace stacks your saves with your AC bonus from charisma so it's a nice synergy. I've really only considered taking Seelah to 8 paladin because I wanted to test her with Gendarme at 12. Mostly I have her take a 3 point dip to Scaled Fist for movement speed and Saves, take Pally at 4 max for channeling (usually 3 though - as Channeling I can do with Saucy, and Ember as a divine herbalist gets the next best thing to lay on hands) Then I put on 2 primalist to gain Uncanny Dodge so she doesn't loose her bonus' and take Dragon Disciple to 6 = if I don't want My Little Pony re-runs in my head lol. [My sister made me watch it. We liked very different shows growing up] * Shoulld mention if it hasn't been covered; movement speed bonus' from different classes DO stack. So you can make someone pretty mobile if you can get at least 2, with light armor build. The restriction on Monk means you're not getting Barbarian for it as well, which kind of sucks... but you can do as many as three in one Toon.
Yup it's been mentioned and I changed it since then. LOL Thanks!
@@SlanderedGaming Hey you managed to get through every mythic path playthrough - so as a Lich master of Death, I should definitely Kneel ; )
* I'm still trying to get through one playthrough. I feel good about my attempt at Gold dragon - which I've named the save file Dragon's Dogma!
As Paladin is my go-to class I would rank it A or S, even with Seelah being part of the party.
Paladins are cool.
I also think skipping Seelah is fine.
I believe that Paladin's are an S tier class that most people would never pick. When playing as Paladin do you leave Seelah on the bench?
@Slandered Gaming I bring Seelah with most runs, she's an effective tank and with the Steed Divine Bond even more so. Usually I make Paladin’s with Damage in mind so I make a combo to be the Hammer while she is the Anvil.
@@SlanderedGaming I haven't done a paladin run but yes I would leave her on the bench.
Call me crazy, but I liked Warrior of the Holy Light. That party wide buff was really cool, and I never picked Paladins because they could cast spells anyways.
The cloud is definitely interesting.
How do you give paladin base a C but divine hunter a B- ? Lol sorry but base paladin is easily A to S tier especially when an angel paladin. Yes if you have your paladin and and seelah in the same party then I agree the rating drops to B or C.
Your last sentence makes it clear you agree with my ranking. The player gets Seelah right from the start so there is no reason to pick this class and therefore it drops to a C. If Seelah was not available as a party member than yes it would be an S ranked class.
Having Seelah really does make any MC paladin redundant. And I'd argue that the base paladin makes as good a ranged archer as Divine Hunter and keeps mark of justice. It's a shame too because being a Angel Paladin just sounds badass. But Crusader Cleric fits that role better with it's merged spell book.
Yup I 100% agree.
I just finished my Core run through with an Aasimar Battle/Ancients Oracle Angel and it was bonkers how strong the build was. I felt sorry for poor Seelah since everything was always already dead by the time she got to the party.
@@stephencnunez Seelah should be mounted and charge into the party but yeah a blaster Oracle/Angel has already nuked the area from orbit if they went first.
Love your work! I think “death KNELL” is what you keep wanting to say though! Not “kneel”.
Wow. I was today years old when I found out it's not kneel. Thank you!
@@SlanderedGaming I really have looked forward to each of these videos from you!
Paladin is the class that's technically great but that I never really want in my party, lvl 3 or lvl 11 multiclass everytime.
Interesting why?
@@SlanderedGaming Primarily because while paladin does very good dmg in its own right, the reason most people including myself take paladin is to complete the checklist of a well stocked party, very similiar to cleric. Cleric can be played offensively as well as a pure healer, but many times people just have cleric in the team so that it can - again - tick a checkbox in the capable party list. It's needed but not fun, which is why for paladin is much better roleplaying-wise than it really is any other way, all those classes you ranked, I agree with gameplay wise, but rp-wise - hospitalier for example is great as not a cliche paladin, but someone who can put in a little fighting but is much treating someone's wounds after combat, like a medieval combat medic, as infact many paladins in the lore are, rather than fighters. Stuff like that makes me just focus on min max, and take the needed self dip of lvl 3 or the longer haul mark of justice lvl 11 dip.
Giving the base class a C seems a little off to me. None of the good subclasses maintain the majority of what the base class offers -- they're all significantly different. So giving it a C makes it seem like there are strictly better subclass options (like Dirge Bard over base Bard), but that isn't the case.
Like, you give Divine Guardian a B, but then immediately say it's worse than the base class, which is a C. Huh?
If you had payed attention he said that the base class got a C because there is no need to lv.20 the class with a KC as you already gain access to base class Paladin right from the start in Seelah.
I too also believe the base Paladin is S rank but I know I would never pick it in a game with access to it so early on
I believe these rankings to be spot on for 90% of the content but this one is the worst. Base Paladin is by far the best choice. Divine hunter should be an F and unless you consider various dips (3 divine guardian for instance) it’s not even close (not counting stone-lord’s race specific choice).
Like Orsik said the class is rated C because 90% of players are not going to take it since you get Seelah right from the start. If Seelah was not an option then Paladin would be S rank. We have consistently rated classes C even if they were good if it was obvious players would never pick it.
@@SlanderedGaming I dont understand why you'd say that. You gave base oracle an A while daeran is in the game and can be got pretty early. But you give paladins a C because seelah is a paladin? Eh?
While i found the choice of giving base class/archetypes non-related rating a bit strange, i do see the point of it: there are many ways to build oracles, while paladins tend to be quite similar. As a main you usually don't select life mystery as an oracle, and most of the oracle's identity comes from its mystery choice (many builds end up getting nature and battle mysteries).
Hah, you start this one as human but are switched to dwarf by stonelord. Did you record this before Oracle? It seemed different you started that one with dwarf from the start.
Stonelord requires you to be a Dwarf. I recorded this after Oracle but I was looking through it before I recorded Oracle so that's probably why I would be a Dwarf.
I just discovered your channel as I’m getting into WotR on console.
I’ve watched some of your build videos for like Bloodrager into dragon, and the Crusader… but could you please make a Paladin build? Paladin is my fav class and I want to make one that utilizes mounted combat on the warhorse, with sword and shield.
And (for a bonus,) do you have a Crusader Mounted build that can act like a Paladin but doesn’t have to be LG?
Thanks so much!
Interesting that's a thought will look into that.
@@SlanderedGaming Thanks for the reply brother! I really appreciate (and see) that you reply to everyone. I'm loving WotR but I'm stuck at the part before the fight at the inn haha I like to run a custom party, and I'm making 6 merc's and will sub in companions for quests -- but it's hard to find the right group. I've toyed around with: Paladin, Viv/Sacred Huntsman, Dirge Bard, Elemental Wizard, Orcale on a wolf and Zen Archer/Demon Slayer. But as soon as I think I've landed on a team, I find a new idea or something that pulls me away --- I really want to play the game! haha
I wonder how well Stonelord and Stalwart Defender would synergize together. Do the Defensive Stance abilities stack in some way?
I believe they do yes.
Warrior of Holy light is a good class to multi with. Also I never really used paladin spell. With a cleric on the team a lot of times they can cover what I dont have.
Finally
Slandered, Seelah died in the tunnels beneath Kenabres, you have to let her go, it wasn't your fault. 🤣 Seriously though, I love Seelah, I think she's great, but unless you were planning on doing a hard-as-nails unforgiving type Paladin that's closer to Aeon than Angel and would dismiss Seelah from the party it's really hard to say that you need another paladin. I don't think having more mark of justice around is necessarily a BAD thing since you could use it on more enemies, but why not just diversify your party more?
Exactly. I love Paladin but I just don't think it makes much sense to take it.
No amark of Justice is a hard no.
Ayyy Seelah’s hairline is CRAZY in that thumbnail.
Surprising to see Divine Hunter, which gives up a lot for meh ranged abilities, get rated so much higher than Divine Scion, which gives up similar things for an ability that almost makes up for it and a lot of extra damage. Not great overall but a Paladin/Slayer is definitely stronger than Paladin/half-assed Ranger. Having access to a horse is also not as make or break for a Paladin as other classes that can get pets, Divine Weapon Bond is always useful and they're really tanky on their own, so it's mainly just movement speed.
Hospitaler is also a good archetype. There's no reason a Paladin with good channel energy ability couldn't be a party healer. Have someone w Heal for emergencies and you're fine for most of the game.
And, like... yes, if you main a Paladin you could totally leave Seelah on the bench and bring some extra damage along, or just roll w 2 Paladins side by side as your frontline if you really want to.
Divine Scion doesn't get a pet. :) Also I don't rate classes in different brackets between each other. So Divine Hunter is rated against Hunter while Divine Scion is rated against Paladin.
Hospitaler loses Mark of Justice and multiple Smite rankings. Again the archetype's are rated against the base class and that loss is extremely difficult to overcome.
Two Paladin's is redundant and having them both on your team really doesn't help you. The vast majority of players are not doing this.
"Part 15" instead of 16 in video title.
Fixed. Thank you!
I think this is the only instance where I think your base class ranking is right out to lunch! Paladin is an A base class and I don't think it's particularly close. Here's why you're wrong :)
- Not everyone will want to have Seela in their party, especially on evil playthroughs (Seela's your eBae and you know you're biased!)
- There's enough diversity in mercies and auras between subclasses to avoid significant overlap when running more than one paladin
- Mark of Justice is game-breakingly strong. While they don't stack with one another the limited uses mean having multiple paladins being able to use them throughout a dungeon is most welcome, ESPECIALLY on higher difficulties
- As a base they're a full BAB class with access to fully levelled pets, martial weapon and all armor proficiencies, the best class ability in the game (smite/mark of justice), arguably the best defensive passives in the game (aura of courage, divine grace, immunities) and divine casting
- Makes one of, if not, THE best 2-level dip in the entire game
LMFAO
-You must be Lawful Good to level in Paladin so evil parties cannot take the class.
-Not if you both have the base Paladin which is what I ranked as C
-No the solution to low Mark of Justice uses is to focus on Charisma which is what I do when levelling Seelah
-Agreed in my opinion Paladin is S+ if Seelah is not in the game
-Dips don't count for the ranking :)
You mean take a bunch of made adventurers as a paladins while your PC is evil? That's weird lore wise. guess if your doing some min/max meta play on unfair it works but why would they follow him?
@@SlanderedGaming Lol I should have written it better, my first point wasn't about the paladin class specifically it was about not always wanting Seela in the party in general. I shouldn't have had it as a bullet but a separate comment, though you'd probably have downvoted it to hell as blasphemy xD
yeah I see what hurts the Paladin class the most
*look at Seelah*
Aside from the Stonelord who is really cool
abit confused at 2:28 you say divine guardian isn't better than the base class, but at the end you give the divine guardian a higher score than base class? i know this vid is pretty old now so you likely won't see this but i'm confused as to which is better haha
Mechanically Paladin is better than all of it's subclasses except for the new one that was just released. At the same time it doesn't make sense to take Paladin since Seelah already has it and two of them is a crowd. Divine Guardian has mechanics that are different enough from base Paladin that it makes sense to take it and since it is of more use to the actual player I rate it higher.
ahh okay so base paladin is better but since you already have one, if you wanted a second paladin for some reason then divine guadrdian > base class, makes sense now thanks! @@SlanderedGaming
Chose paladin in order to become hellknight as a backstory for my character. 😂
I simply stick with Seelah. At level 4, I dip her into Beast Tamer Cavalier to pick up Smokey, her boar, then use her Level 5 Paladin afterward to get him all caught up.
Makes for a great tanky front line when she can't get hit, and she can Lay On Hands him while riding him to keep him going!
Nice that make ssense.
👍🏾👍🏾🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
You really can’t fathom someone keeping Seelah on the bench :p I don’t think you considered that someone would dislike her personality and would not want to use that precious 6th slot on her when there are so many interesting companions. Personally, playing a paladin is actually very tempting exactly because I can leave her on the bench while still having a paladin in the group.
How can you not like Seelah? LOL
@@SlanderedGaming she’s uh…”gee whiz, golly gee adventure awaits!” character. Painfully generic and theater-kid acted. I would much rather have an interesting character like Camellia or Daeran or Regill along for the ride. Even Sosiel seems like he might have more potential (haven’t beaten the game yet). Just seems like they went ultra-generic and safe with Seelah.
Thematically, I really like the Divine Hunter. It's far better in ttrpg, but it's fun to role-playing a paladin of Erastil.
Roleplaying wise it's probably great it's just hard for me to mesh with a Paladin archer.
@@SlanderedGaming in the table top you can often stack multiple archetypes so long as they don't override the same abilities. I like stacking Divine Hunter with Holy Guide. Basically becoming a ranger with smite and lay on hands. It's a lot of fun.
Seelah is a great paladin as she's a real pal 😃
Nope not sorry.
😂😂
Also warrior of light losses spell casting
I'm just going to do what i do with every other game that gives me a companion that uses the class I'm interested in and change her class/ dismiss her in the first opportunity I get. Sorry Seelah, I'll make sure you stick around in my next playthrough.
I think I like the Divine Guardian for my first play through. I want someone warrior or divine focused as I think they would lead a crusade since the game forces you into that. Why would an alchemist, druid, rogue or bard be leading a crusade. That is one thing this game and kingmaker did I was not fond of, forcing me into a more lawful role, or being unrealistic. I was rather disappointed the 2h fighter was so poor as I would be playing this as a 2h Fighter.
stone lord with a nice reach weapon. try and run past me, see what happens.
😂😂
16:09 she always dies in my playthroughs after the.. "accidents", so heck yeah I would
Yeah. I have to say Paladin suffers from exactly what you said: Seelah. I even have a mod that lets me respec companions from rank 1, and I still just kept Seelah as a base Paladin, because everything else felt like it sacrificed too much (I was *tempted* to make her a martyr, but I didn't feel it really 'fit' her). So I don't really see msyelf ever using any of the Paladin subclasses (I might make Seelah a Martyr eventually if I do a playthrough where I'm utterly bored with her as a Paladin, just for a change, but even that likely wouldn't happen).
It's something of a shame, actually. A MC Paladin would fit the story fantastically, but as you say, you don't need 2, and Seelah being a Paladin is too ingrained in her character to comfortably make her anything else rp-wise (I mean, *maybe* I could stretch to Cleric-Crusader, but I'd really have to hold my nose as I did it and her stats don't really work well for it).
Yup that's exactly why I felt comfortable putting it at C even though Mechanically it's an S class.
I've always considered the paladin subclasses to be pretty seriously underwhelming. There are a couple that you could maybe dip a level or two into, but most of them are pretty awful. Some of them are slightly more viable here than in the tabletop version, and some of them are worse than in the tabletop version. Notably, losing out on spells, while still a huge detriment, is much less crippling here because the game doesn't have some of the best paladin spells, such as litany of righteousness. The horse bond is also much better here than in the tabletop, mostly because of how absurd the numbers can get for things like AC, as well as the fact that it doesn't seem like you can just purchase a mount. For context, the most intimidating stat block in the entirety of the tabletop game is Lucifer, who im pretty sure is homebrew, is CR 39 and has an AC of 74, and most late game bosses in this game have 80 AC.
I don't think any of them are as good as base Paladin but I am interested in Stonelord.
We all have that one class that we absolutely do not care for. For me that class happens to be the Paladin. I hated the class yesterday. I hate the class tomorrow.
Really?! How can you not like Paladin? What are two classes that really grab your attention?
@@SlanderedGaming wizards and rogues. Honestly the thassilonian wizard really called to me in Kingmaker. I just have zero love for the paladin.
I wish Seelah could be a Martyr. Being a Paladin/Bard would make her way useful
I don't entirely agree with how you evaluate the Martyr. It's not a replacement for a base Paladin - it's not a melee beatstick. It's a Paladin-Bard hybrid, and it fills the Bard's role in the party - a frontline secondary fighter whose key utility is in buffing the rest of the party.
The ranking structure requires that the archtypes get compared to the base class. Even though it's not technically a Paladin replacement I still look at what Martyr provides in comparison with Paladin.
Kind of wish you can change the sub class of all the characters at times. Would give them more replay value.
I think if you pick paladin you're specifically not going to bring Seelah outside companion quests. I'd guess people watching these videos like your voice and they like wrath but its not like they don't know about Seelah. Paladin is A+ class for people who know about Seelah
The question is if you value having a Paladin in your team are you actually rolling a separate Paladin and leaving Seelah on the bench? My answer is that 90%+ of players are not doing that and therefore the class is really just filling up a slot regardless of it's mechanics.
@@SlanderedGaming Dunno, we're like a year from the official release. I think people know what classes the companions have at this point or even if they're new they can look them up without many spoilers.
Like I think Shadow Shaman is up there for most versatile and powerful class but Cammy exists and her subclass covers most of the same ground. So if you want to be a shaman you don't bring her. She's probably in at least 80% of parties. When she's not its because people recognise she's a serial killer or they're playing a shaman themselves. I like Seelah but if I wanted to play a paladin she's warming the bench
i would just like to say that thematically warrior of the holy light makes the most sense if you go with angel because in angel all your powers come from light from within your soul and about Sila there are people like me who chose companions based on roleplay people like me will have soriel sila and ember in one party and plus having multiple healers can be very helpful when you take a lot of damage
To me Paladin is perfectly balanced and do not need archtype
I deeply dislike Seelah as a character so I'm thinking of making a paladin so she can forever stay on the bench.
Dislike Seelah?!!! Oh the horror.... 😂
Funny....i took it.
Stay tanky yall.
personally i never liked this class, i think paladins are boring, and i hate good character, plus it's just a weaker version of fighter, combined with a weaker version of Cleric (yes, it has smite evil and mark of justice, but i think you can pick another class that gives better buffs overall). And when i make a character, i spend a lot of time optimizing the hell out of character creator, and i make more "focused" builds, so fighter feats are invaluable (or cleric's spellbook, with crusader feats).
Paladin's aren't really my thing but I do like having Seelah on my team.
Out of the topic, I just found out that if you use "Bane of spirit" ring, every damage you do is Force damage, and that including every elemental enchantment on your weapon, means with that ring, you never need any Ascendent Elements and just make all your fire, ice and electric became FORCE elements!
Yup that's true but I think you have to activate it every round or something like that. I decided it was too annoying.
@@SlanderedGaming well, i just use it on those annoying 0.5 damage enemies.
Oh yeah, forgot you are not into turn based, which yeah, but that item is free action so it activate instantly, just pause, use it, and kill those annoying enemies in no time.