082220/1628pst. That was the most intelligent discussion, educational even. The presentation was not scripted, the two people exchanged views and comments that came out quite naturally, which is very commendable. The gentleman in yellow Jacket explained well to the other gentleman, who was quite inquisitive to understand the intricacies of flooded Pb cell batteries and the LiFePo4 batteries, or the comparison between the two. I have yet to come across such intelligent program in YT in my life. No comments on “ others!” You know what I mean ! Thank you, both of you. My respects and 73s...
Very well done. I had my lithium’s shut down on me last year and wouldn’t take charge. Did the same thing as described with another battery and woke up the charger. Great questions and a great report. Keep up the good work
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the prismatic being better. Especially in an off road scenario. Cylindrical cells are wound tightly and encased in a metal casing, This minimizes electrode material from breaking up from mechanical vibrations, thermal cycling from charging and mechanical expansion. The complete opposite to prismatic construction ! Remember those Optima glass matt super tough off road starter batteries from the 90s? No coincidence each cell was constructed in a cylindrical manner.
I’ve a lithium and matched with a redarc BCDC the advantages are amazing . Just the weight and capacity are enough on why I really like my set up. Steve 🇦🇺
We just upgraded from AGM's to Lithiums by building our own battery bank on our sailboat (we liveaboard) using 180 amp hour, 3.6-volt CALB cells, and a DALY BMS, wiring the cells in a 4s2p orientation. So stoked on the upgrade! We charge our lithiums in 2 different ways. We send the power from our 120 amp Balmar alternator on our engine to our 100 amp-hour sealed lead-acid starter battery. From there a Renogy 60 amp DC-DC charger takes the load from the alternator and puts it in a lithium profile and in turn charges the lithium batteries. It was a fun build!
I learned all of this when I quit smoking and started vaping , hahaha. Li-on batteries are great. Seems like there could be a little capacitor that would at least allow the charger to "see" the battery when its flat though. It will get normal really soon. AGM batteries are gonna be antiques .....maybe in the morning
Very unclear definition as there are several DIFFERENT Lithium battery technologies. Main known ones are LiPo and LiFePo. The former is used in phones, Electric cars etc as it has higher energy density. But also the known ,explosive fire, variety. It use allows smallest size for given energy capacity. The storage battery presented is LiFePo variety, where the far more stable, less fire prone technology is better, at small loss of energy capacity for given volume is of no concern. But for clarity this presentation should not refer to just 'Lithium' battery but state the technology specifics. Even the optimal charging is affected by Lithium technolgy used.
Great video and really helpful. The comment about Prismatic cells confused me as it conflicted with some other research I have done. What I have identified is that some manufacturers provide protection both in terms of physical (explosion proof jacket) and electrical (internal fuses) at a cell level. Prismatic cells are bigger and therefore both more dangerous in the case of explosion and cylinder cells. Cylindrical cells because there are more of them, have more redundancy at a cell level so a problem with a single is less likely to be as serious. So it may be more true to say that the quality of the cells used is more important, and a reflection of cost, than whether they are prismatic or cylinder.
As someone that's trying to get a rig put together, and looking at the differences between these two batteries I really appreciate all this information, especially about how bad of an idea it is to put a lithium battery under the hood. Tons of great information here, thank you! I'll have to check out more of your video's. :D
You asked all the right questions, and Heiner answered very well. The first thing he answered well, was that the Lithium battery case is just a "housing" of the bits inside, so that case and how it looks is the thing that actually confuses everything...because if the look the same, then it should be the same, and that is where the issue starts. Lithiums are fantastic BUT you have to match and design it to work how you want, and unless you are technical at heart, you will struggle. You just started to touch on connecting multiple batteries at the end of the clip, and that is really when it gets complicated...if you need 24V or >200AH...then you really need to match and understand....whereas AGM's you can really still connect them in parallel and/or serial as you see fit, and when you need to...LifePo4 need planning. Great Video.
Excellent discussion. However, here in the US we have a wide range of weather. During the year I can travel areas where the temperature can vary between -10 (-23C) to 115 (46C). At his time lithium batteries have complications when dealing with weather extremes that my 8D AGM’s don’t have. I’m excited about lithium battery potential, but right now they don’t answer all my needs like an AGM does.
Interesting to see that AGMs (and FLAs) still "win" for certain applications such as under the hood of a car. Also, the guy wrongly said that a high current draw from an AGM battery lessens the capacity. That is not true. It doesn't significantly lessen the capacity of the battery, it just lessens the effective capacity of the battery at that higher amperage draw. For example, if a 100Ah rated AGM battery has 50Ah of usable energy (without damage to the battery) rated at the 20 hour drain rate, that means you can draw 2.5A for 20 hours to get 50Ah out of the battery (assuming a healthy fully charged battery). However if you instead put a 25A load on that same fully charged battery, then you wont get 2 hours @ 25A. You might only get 1.5 hours, but that doesn't mean the battery dropped to only 37.5 Ah usable energy. You can still extract the "missing" 12.5 Ah, just at a slower rate (such as the 2.5A rate). I suggest that draining the batteries either way (either 2.5A for 20 hours) or 25A for 1.5 hours, then 2.5A for 5 hours (both are 50Ah of drain), will leave the battery is a similar state of charge (around 50%). If you don't believe me, try it. I usually do capacity tests on batteries that way. I use a high drain rate until my inverter beeps (usually at 10.5V under load), then I lighten the load and keep going.
I have one big question left after this brilliant and very educational video: how or more when you gonna charge these batteries, when they don't like to be charged all the time by just a little. I mean, practically, you charge them, start your trip, use them for let's say 1 day and they are down to 70%. Do you then just switch off the charger and wait until it's down to 10% and only then switch the charger back on? But then you plan to just stay in one place for another 2 days but then your battery is flat?! How this works in real life?
I just bought an Ultra lead carbon battery, which so far seems amazing in terms of charging speed from Solar and can go to deeper discharge than AGM. (same price as AGM) Biggest issue for me with battery systems is the ridiculous prices for the DC to DC chargers like red arc.
Mark Jennings You are correct in the price for the Battery management systems as lithium set up is expensive (chargers or bms), i have a back up power system in the house and was advised not to go lithium because of the risk of thermal runaway inside a house. AGM's have there down side but until lithium batteries is improved a bit more i will stick with the old tried and tested AGM batteries.
I learned a lot from this. Thank you. I could put a lithium starter under my seat in my Defender but then I heard 1. The price and 2. The trickle charge issue. So I'll stick with AGM for my starter battery.
Love your work Andrew! Keep it up! I had so many questions about Lithium batteries and this is very insightful and answer almost all my questions, except 1. Almost all battery chargers and gauges measure the voltage of the battery to determine its state of charge. But since the Lithium battery has a virtually constant voltage (until shutoff), how do you measure/determine its state of charge?
Most lithium ion batteries are made in China, then a company puts its name on it. The weak point of these can be the bms . When buying a battery, ask questions about the bms , if they can’t show you one or give you the proper specs in writing go elsewhere. A great source of information on this subject is Will Prowse’s TH-cam channel.
The most important question and answer (for me!) was the very last one; "why 2x 100ah batteries v. 1x 200ah battery." To add to the electrical engineering answer Heiner gave, unlike AGM/Flooded batteries, you can easily add more batteries to the system later. That means you can start with 1x 100ah battery + DC/DC charger+charger/inverter+MPPT solar controller for your system and then after your cardiologist bills are paid due to the sticker shock, you can buy another 100ah lithium and add it into the system ;-)
Great video Andrew. Heiner (sorry if I misspelt his name) is fantastic at giving clear explanations of the technology and the function of the batteries. You both did a great job. Really enjoyed it and feel much more confident about the value and limitations of lithium batteries. Thanks lads.
as a RC enthusiast, the LiFePO4 batteries are the future if you want reliability, long term storage and cold weather operation. If you want larger capacity, straight lithium cells like a 18650. If you need high draw, fast discharge and recharge, LIPO. and I define high draw as 30-40C, as in draining 100ah in 5 - 10 minutes. Think drones or arc welding.
Great video, Andrew. I have just got into lithium power, all the factors of this new technology add up and significantly outweigh the larger initial outlay in dollar terms. I won't even mention the weight savings
I know others have stated this already but if anyone has questions about LiFe (lithium) batteries, battery management, whats good and whats garbage...go over to DIY Solar, Will Prowse's channel and watch some of his beginner videos. You'll learn a ton and its all honest info. All this electrical stuff seems complicated but once its explained correctly its not too bad. The takeaway for me has been "Go with lithium" like a Battle Born or other quality make.
if you want to start your car with it, there are AGM batteries on the market eg.: Enersys EP, XE; Odyssey extreme, Powersafe SBS, Interstate MTZ,... example: Enersys XE16 12V 16Ah Crankingamps: >600A or Odyssey PC2250 12V 125Ah Crankingamps: 2250A
I'd like to add, where they rate the cycle life (2000cycles at 70% DoD for eg). It's my understanding it's a rating until the original capacity has reduced to 80% (100ah battery now holds 80ah). So essentially the life of the battery could go for many thousands more cycles with slowly diminishing capacity.
@@itsMSpace then add another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD while the battery has 80% of its original capacity and you've got yourself ? maybe 60% of its original 100ah when you bought it so if you just ran a 50L fridge thats 8+ years and youd still have a 60ah battery that could last another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD.......... ~i need a lithium battery~
@@VEOPengineering actually it's pretty good for 18650 lithium ion cells. Alot of the spec sheets say 500-1000 cycles. Those Winston lifepo4 cells seem to be rated at 5000 cycles 80% DoD. That's what I've made my packs with and can't fault them. No noticeable capacity loss after 6 years.
I’d never buy a battery based off 18650 cells. They don’t last and were never designed for this kind of application or for high discharge rates. My lithium can discharge at 250a constant (I have 2 under bonnet ) and rated for -20 to +80c temps and 3year full replacement warranty applies. This means I have 500a available for my winch, and that’s with the car turned off. My 200amp alternator can charge direct at 200amp to the battery no external bms so from flat to full is 1 hr. At idle I gain more charge in 30mins than solar could provide all day and I can run a 3000w invertor as well. Those cheap batteries can run a fridge and charge up some phones, camera batteries but lack the real performance. Cut them open and the bms is very basic and count the cells and they don’t match the claimed capacity
@@VEOPengineering We are talking about 2 different lithium battery chemistries here. I too would not buy a battery based off 18650 laptop cells. I however don't let them go to waste and build "Powerwalls" with them for other projects. My house runs off big lifepo4 cells. And I keep the charge between 30-90% at the extremes. That's a very high C rate to charge your batteries in 1hr. Impressive none the less. Lead acid is archaic in comparison and reminds me of a sieve that leaks alot of the energy put into them. Yep those inbuilt BMS are the limiting factors for lithium discharge rates. It makes people think they don't compare to AGM. But it's the complete opposite. Also lifepo4 is a safe battery chemistry. A Shame this wasn't explained properly in the video.
This guy needs to look into what a BMS does.....or BATTERY MANAGEMENT system does. One of its functions is to maintain the charge of each cell equally, ie ensure that all the cells are evenly charged and are charged up according to the charge required of each cell. What happens outside of the battery is reflected back to the BMS and it goes to work charging the cells according to the load on the battery.
The cut off is in alot of the chargers, if the charger knows it is a lithium battery that has fallen under a certain voltage, it will not charge it because the insides of the battery "May" catch on fire due to insides of the battery being damage. If you trick the charger to think it is not a lithium cell and charge it above a certain voltage, you can continue to recharge the lithium cell battery as a lithium cell. This worked for me.
Hi Andrew, I have a 120ah Lead crystal battery have done for a few years, after watching the video and the comment of possibly not being able to purchase Lead crystal batteries in Australia anymore, I had a look and there appears that you can still purchase them. Trailer camper Australia was one of the sellers.
I learned a few things with this one, recently I also chose lithium. However, my biggest concern while choosing was not mentioned in this video: cold weather charging. Most lithium batteries bms will shut down bellow 0º to avoid damaging the cells. That's the only thing I would have liked to see mentioned in here. (Not a concern in Australia or South Africa I assume). Thanks for the great videos.
Amazing video Andrew! Easy to understand and great information for all of us. I've been dying to get hold of a Lithium Battery in Malaysia but can't find one. Keep up the great work you are doing for the 4x4/overlanding community!!
So for engine compartment stored batteries. Extreme heat with lithiums is a concern in the desert temps of 100°f plus. Under hood temps can reach 200°f plus. The interior/cab alone here in south west Arizona can reach 122°f.
Richie P Will is a genius on Lithium batteries and BMS but not specialized on electric systems used in mining, heavy duty used 4x4 and off-road camper vans. Heiner is the expert on that for Australien conditions. That the point in this vid. Cheers
I bought 2 of those amptron batteries last year, havent installed them yet, just charged them and put them in the shed. Pulled them out last week and one was completely dead and would not wake up via jumpstart or via a proper power supply at a certain voltage. Its currently going back for investigation.
So... the take on this is: AGM battery good for under the hood of your car, GREAT starter battery and can handle the constant charging from your alternator as long as the engine is running. Lithium battery good for RV's, campers, running electric cars, motorcycles, trolling motors and golf carts. They are like deep cycle batteries that don't require constant charging while in use. Also, like the guy said, AGM battery can be on a constant charger and not hurt the battery. Lithium battery requires a special charger that shuts down the charging after the battery is fully charged. Both batteries have pros and cons depending on your application.
read some reviews, they don't like cold temperatures, and charging can be a issue unless you spend Big dollars getting the correct chargers unless you want them to fail/die after a period. Also i have some people telling me of thermal runaway inside there campers.
very good information about lithium batteries for today they are the best but very expensive and the bms circuit prevent thermal runaway and causing the battery to explode from short circuit condition . the only thing to worry about lithium battery is physical puncture. they say it lasts 2000 cycles but in realty it reach alot lower than 2000 . using a smart power charger that record the charging and discharging curve (1st cycle recordings )using a constant load and this information can be compared to curves example after reaching 600 cycles if the curves are 20% in difference expect the battery is fading away and can't last longer when it was brand new .
Something to remember here is the information from Suppliers IS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT! I work in a battery shop & there is a very well known brand of lithium Motorcycle battery sold all over the world that advertise they are Prismatic cells. Every single one I have cracked open have lithium polymer cells with no protective casing! I dont sell these by the way.
I've spent years touring remote parts of Australia & spent a fortune on building my truck over time.. take it from me after testing multiple battery set ups, lithium IS the way to go & far superior to AGM batteries for your accessories/gadgets etc.. costly yes but not really considering the overall benefits.
LiFePO4 is a rollercoaster in my present build decision making. Yes there is deep discharge and high cycle life ability, very high (95%) Watt-hour efficiency and superb energy density per kg . However, very few products seem to have a convincing CCA rating for emergency engine starting, most prohibit in-series use to make 24V without more complex BMS, charging and general use below 0 Deg C seems restricted to 5% Amps of Ah size and/or need for heating mats. My latest discovery switching me off again is risk of alternator burnout due to very high current even when charging at low rpm when alternator cooling fan performance is low, demanding alternator temperature controlled charge regulation. I'm rapidly concluding some low capacity CCA rated AGMs and a small homemade Honda GX35 24V APU charger generator is the way ahead to back up plenty of PV and possibly a yacht type wind charger . LiFePO looks great for domestic offgrid however.
Amptron is based in Perth and a failed battery has to be returned to them "by them and their shipping". It may then take three months for replacement parts to be found. Great for camping? The warranty also says "not transferable"? I thought that is eliminated by ACCC. Won't bother you cause you get given them and say such nice things about them. Don't forget to mention that to whoever buys your truck. Same thing with the lead crystal batteries?
I had a lead crystal battery have a cell or 2 drop late last year and it was replaced under warranty. I note this only to note that they clearly could supply the replacement in Australia.
The new technology is Lithium Titenate. They are fire proof and damage proof. They are 20,000 cycles ie life- time batteries . Also you can charge them in ten minutes. You can discharge them at massive amperages also. These will function from -59C to +65C- LTO - AWESOME!
Newish AC chargers, such as the Noco genius family, now have the "force mode" where you can push current through when the battery has very low voltage/undetectable, which would happen in a lithium iron phosphate when the BMS goes into low voltage protection and the voltage sense at the terminals becomes ineffective. I bet future Dc-Dc chargers will also begin including this mode as an option if they haven't already.
I am leaning more and more towards Lithing batteries. I just wish they were not so expensive, but I did see your prior video re the comparison of AGM and Lithium over 10 years cost and amperage. The lithium battery curve is kinda similar to Ni-Cad batteries where they both give full power until nearly the end of the power source then drop radically to 0. This man Heiner is fantastic he really knows his information.
Genuinely USEFUL information . I am doing a Build currently after being off the " Scene " for a LONG time . I know how to build a Killer Off-roader , but this kind of tech I am way out of Date on .
Lithium Iron Phosphate cells (prismatic) batteries (like this one) are not as energy dense as some lithium chemistries but are essentially inert, so they are suited to situations where the size is less important, for example larger vehicles.
Was so close to getting lead crystal 18 months ago, went to AGM instead as i couldnt get the right size. At the time Lithium was 4 times the price of the AGM now that Lithium has come down would go that way. That being said have had no problem with the AGM setup very happy with it.
I think you can run a Lithium Batterie direct conected via BMS (Batterie Management System) to the alternator. As well as via solar charger and BMS. The BMS ( at least mine) will bring down the charging current to the amount the batterie wants. What do you think?
So by the information you just have explained, if I want to use a lithium battery as my main power, then I should mount it some place else, other than the engine compartment. So that it could stay as cool as possible, away from any heat source. Or else it I do use it in the engine compartment, then I should install a cool ventilation system for the battery.
Just on the whole charging thing, Victron, a very well respected manufacturer of such things, produce LiFePO4 batteries and will sell you a split charge system for it. The battery data sheets ask for almost identical charging specs to lead acid batteries.
I was looking at switching to a lithium ion battery for my dualsports motorcycle until I read some reviews. They don't like cold temperatures, and can't be charged in the very cold temperatures. I live in Canada.
This video is a Godsend but I still have one question. In order to provide optimum conditions for a long service life what level of charge is preferred by lithium batteries before recharging.
It all comes down to the BMS most lithium batteries that are used in RC cars can easily deliver several hundred amps despite being only a few AH in capacity, granted they are usually a slightly different chemistry but I wouldn't be suprised if the cells inside that battery could deliver 500amps easily. A top notch BMS could easily be used as a replacement for a starter battery if you mounted somewhere it wouldn't get too hot whether that's worth the price or not is another thing entirely though.
Should i/should i not wire a winch to my secondary lithium battery and use winch while running engine, or always wire winch to lead acid starter battery and use when engine running?
Hi Andrew I’ve been a regular follower of your videos through the years even while you where in SA I bought your book”Ultimate Guide to a Four-Wheel Drive in Southern Africa “way” back when, when you still resided in SA That was just for record - now you in Australia and the videos I look-at all you “down-under” 4x4 enthousiasts talk of a Lithium PRISMATIC cell battery When I “surf” looking for cost in SA all I pick-up is Lithium-ion or Lithium iron LifePo4 Now my question is the Lithium battery the same as Lithium-ion and / or Lithium iron LifePo4 Kindly advise - will greatly be appreciated Regards JC
Andrew. I am looking to replace my three 110amp 7 year old Full River AGM deep cycle batteries . The batteries are housed in a rack under the tray of my Iveco 4x4. I became keen on the Enerdrive e power B tec lithium batteries. Reading the fine print the Enerdrive are not suitable for fitment in exposed weather eg under the tray for a 4x4 truck or under the chasis of a caravan.Is that the norm for lithium in general? Also some suppliers are saying lithium should not be connected in series. Say if I want to add an additional battery later.
Hi Andrew- You talked about the battery management system - then you talked about let-s see if that Lithium battery after it shut itself off will be able to start itself back up again ( it-s actually a LiFePo4 so a Lithium Phosphate i believe ) at that point you mentioned you have a 50 Amp REDARC BCDC charger ( i think that what you said) and that s where I had to stop to write this comment- Being in the same boat as everyone else i am trying to figure out what to do and buy for my Outback power supply needs and why get this over that ...etc etc so the REDARC BCDC charger actually has a BMS function that will be able to restart a Lithium battery when it turned it self off- so in this case and in your test I guess you would not know that the battery managment system was actually the thing that turned the battery back on or NOT- just a point I observed and hope this is of some assistance- It would be better to find out if that battery management system in that particular battery would be doing it's job by not using the REDARC unit but something inferior which doesn't have the BMS function-... I am totaly new to all of that but just been doing a lot of research on the DCDC chargers and the 1250D BCDC REDARC is my current choice though I wish it had some functions that the DCDC ENERDRIVE charger has - anyway- I am grateful you made this video as I have to go and get my whole battery management system checked over and ADD new batteries and a DCDC Charger since I had not run my Car for 3 years due to this stupid COVID crap and the Car was in Storage while I was stuck overseas- I was going to book VOLTAIC in Perth to do my upgrade and add new batteries ...but you seem to also have a lot of knowledge of maybe other good and reputable companies in Perth which you might want to recommend to me- I am certainly learning a lot lately and it is all a bit overwhelming to say the least LOL- Have a great day and safe travels always- Cheers
you gonna love the lithium, enjoy. Surprised that your redarc jump started the management system. I have to jump start the management system on my batteries. I wonder if its because I have 2 75 amp batteries and you only had one for the test. Will be interesting to see once you have fitted both??? Maybe a follow up on this episode? or maybe its the relion management system vs the Amtron? As you saw on mine I have linked my started motor to the lithium batteries using a kill switch, so its hassle free to jump start both ways if needed.
Great video. Was tempted to replace my AGM battery with Lithium but now I need to ensure my inverter and my charge controller can stop charging once the battery is full, meaning i will need to further invest in a shunt.
lifepo4 battery construction types: 1. pouch cells OR cylindrical cells OR prismatic cells. Best option for a mobile application (e.g. in a vehicle) is prismatic, 2. THE BMS. does it have hight temp voltage disconnect? does it have low temp voltage disconnect? max amp charge? max amp discharge? max continuous discharge? max/min charge temp? recommended charge temp?Just some of the specs that are important. SO, basic summary based on cost of a battery: On average a good 100AH BMS costs $80 and A grade 100ah 3.6v prismatic cells cost $150 (there are 4 in a battery) = $680 in parts excluding the sundries. Obviously battery manufacturers have economy of scale and cost of components is less HOWEVER if you're buying a battery under $800 ( definitely if under $600) the quality is absolutely questionable. I bought an Amptron lifepo4 battery before seeing the brand on this channel, purchase decision was based on their specs and price. The likes of Revolution batteries for $2k are NOT necessary unless you require a very high discharge rate (check out their specs compared to Amptron or similar brands) and there are no other selling points to the cost of a $2k battery. Hope that helps for anyone who's interested
Be careful because there are some battery brands that you can find on Amazon where the manufacturer advertises a BMS, but they don’t bother to tell anyone they disabled it due to customer complaints. It was preventing any discharge below 32F while their intent was to cut charging below 32. You must read the reviews in depth to know this. One such brand is Ampere Time, you can kill the battery as a result.
I’ve just installed a 1500w inverter to make coffees on the road, I’ve got 1x 100amp agm and 1x 75amp agm with my car running and a 40amp dcdc charger charging the 2 batteries the voltage drops to 11.6v from 14.4v . I’ll be interested to see how many cycles I get .
I really like this video as with most of them. I would like to point out something in regards to the dc to dc charger vs. charging from the alternator. If you have a Smart alternator which many new or late model vehicles have you must use a dc to dc charger with any battery, Gel, Lead acid, Lithium etc... in order to achieve a full charge.
After having Lithium for deep cycle battery for nearly 6months there is no going back to Agm in my main 4wd. 1. Lighter weight for same physical size. 2. As said about 100amp battery. Agm you get 50amp usage and maybe 1000cycles Li you get 80amp and 2000cycles. 3. The higher voltage of Li means less amps used 4. The quickness of recharging Lithum is main reason never going back to AGM in 4wd. Can charge at 1/4 of battery rating up to 95% capacity. So 100amp battery can take 25amps until 95% then goes to float charge. In 3 engine hours full battery with the right dcdc charger or if using solar to charge when sunlight is strong the battery usually accept all of the amps being produce and not shedding it as in agm charging cycle. If cycle between 30 and 70% charge it is in theory able to cycle 5000 times
Fantastic informative video Andrew (as usual). Thanks so much for putting it together and thanks to Heiner too. Really informative and contains great, simple to digest detail. Lithium all the way. 👍
interesting... I just did some reading and i quote"Prismatic cells, on the other hand, are lighter designed to conserve space. This makes it easy to connect four cells together and create a 12V battery pack. While being costlier, their thinner layering and rectangular shape mean that the product designer has more choice. They aren’t without their disadvantages, if one prismatic cell fails, the whole battery pack will be affected." all information I have read today says that prismatic have a massive disadvantage in that if one cell dies the whole battery dies and the opposite can be said for cylindrical cells. Your friend here Andrew Quotes the exact opposite?
When lithium batteries drop below a certain thresh hold, some chargers will not charge them. If the voltage is low enough, it can cause the insides to deteriorate quite badly, maybe cause a fire maybe. Force charging it with an alternator can solve this because it does not know it is a lithium battery.
A very good video Andrew, giving the average 12v electrical DIY 4wder punter a great explanation into the new frontier of Lithium batteries. It is a new technology that needs to be explained as the rules regarding capacity, charging, discharging, float charge etc of a AGM battery that we are all familar with...doesn't apply. The question I raise with your video...The connecting of several lithium batteries in paralell? 1/. Can this be done as some Lithium Manufacturers have said "within reason" providing the combined amount of Ahr of the batteries does not exceed the battery maximum discharge rate. An example...the maximum discharge rate of a single Lithium 100Ahr could as an example be 200Ahr...so you can parallel connect only two 100Ahr Lithium batteries. Some manufacturers...ie cheapie manufactured sub $600 Lithium...say no problem...they can parallel more than two batteries. Whilst other manufacturers have have flatly say NO...get a bigger capacity lithium battery. 2/. The thickness of the wiring needed for parallel connection is now debatable..it needs to be heavier...what type of heavy wiring and connectors? 3/. The age of the lithium batteries used. Example..all the lithium batteries connected in parallel need to be similar age and manufacturer..why? different BMS used by the manufactures. Could these questions be explained in the future.
Peter, "in general" getting Lithium batteries connected in parallel is not an issue. But devil's in the details. There are conditions you/batteries should meet. All that is about batteries impedance. Less impedance battery will work harder both ways - charging/discharging. Therefore if you plan to have batteries in parallel it is fine but rather for more storage than ability to draw more current. You still can draw more current from them than from one but you need to bare in mind that any inequality in parameters of those batteries will work against them (and you!). If you have a need for more storage and casual need of drawing more than one can handle then having parallel set up is not an issue... UNDER CONDITION you will have exactly same model of battery and same age. So they will be as close to same as possible. In fact I'm using similar setup for 48V Li-Ion already.
Any Radio Ham, who uses an ICOM IC-7000 transceiver, may like to know, that this radio can shut-down if the input voltage is less than ~12V DC. There are devices, that can boost voltage to slightly above 12V, to enable the radio to function, even if the input (to the boosting device) drops below 12V, but, this adds ~$100 to the total system cost... due to an ICOM design glitch, IMO. Worse (at least in AU): The case of an IC-7000 tends to run warm to hot, even in Receive-mode. I once sold an IC-7000, due to this "overheating" issue, when I was working in the Outback, in warmer seasons. Some warm days would "help" the radio to heat its case to temp's that we didn't want to touch!)
Good information. But the recycling of litium batteries is still quite problematic, reusing the metals is quite difficult because all the expensive metals are in such form. They say that 25-50% of the batterys weight has to recyclabe, but most of the weight is in the plastic/aluminium casing -manganese, nickel, lithium are burned in smoke in high temperatures. Burning is sometimes considered as "recycling" as they calculate the level of recylcability. Ofc they are doing research and building new recycling centers, that are able to collect the rare earth metals that the batteries have inside them, with powerful acids and solvents. Putting a lithium battery in a lead acid battery recycling -its bad - okay - , it causes explosion/fire in the battery crusher. Otherwise lithium battery have some awesome electrical propeties. As soon as they get the recycling working as good as in the lead industry I am going to get myself one of those.
ok, so i'm researching Lithium for off grid power for a home. what I feel makes a big difference is with AGM you should not discharge more than 30% - 50% often before recharging to conserve life. lithium you can cycle deeper to 80% + without shortening the life. now you can reduce your battery capacity by 1/2 for storage reasons. ie, I use 7Kw/day and would like to have 3 days storage before charging, hence with agm, I need a 70KW bank, with lithium, I can use a 35Kw bank. agm charge slowly, and at a rate of no more than 10% capacity, lithium is 30%. so far, lithium is winning for off grid for me.
Discharging & recharging any battery will shorten its life. A 35 KW Li-Ion a battery bank will cost approx $30,000 every 10 years vs a 70 KW Lead-Acid battery bank will cost approx $4,500 every 5 years. Therefore, Li-Ion is no bargain. Are your pockets lined with GOLD ?
When talking about lithium batteries, one really needs to distinguish between the different families of lithium batteries, as they are quite different animals. The two most common forms are NCM and LFP batteries. NMC batteries have a cathode composed by a combination of lithium, nickel, manganese and cobalt-oxide. These batteries achieve the highest power densities among Li-batteries and therefore are the chemistry of choice for electric vehicles and electronic devices. However, they will enter into thermal runaway when reaching a temperature of approx 200˚ C and overcharging can push such batteries to reach such temperatures unless the BMS steps in. They can also catch fire when punctured. LFP batteries, by contrast, use cathodes composed by lithium-iron-phospate. They have lower cell voltages (3.2V) and reach lower energy densities than NMC batteries, but are way more tolerant to abuse. While they still can catch fire, it's much more unlikely and when punctures, they simply leak electrolyte. They also tend to reach high cycle-counts (i.e. longer lifetime) than NMC batteries and tend to be comparatively cheaper.
I am curious about how to set up and run duel batteries. It would be nice if you make a video about duel battery use also, that includes conventional and lithium.
honestly andrew, unless you are running the vehicle's width in batteries it is an unknown what the input and output you have .. with an understanding whilst it might support electrical isolation in charging it likely doesn't offer complete isolation in power .. Noting with chargers some will run hot if charging in 12 volt some will recommend 24 volt or better.. better recharge cycles is why you go with lithium however a point to note you are better to run the in series as house batts and the more you use the better whether you support dc to dc charging via alternator, some form of solar or genset or mains charging make from the mains point of veiw that you are behind a fused inlet.. all I know if you are going to use 100 a/h house capable make sure the crank batts you use are within the use parameters as i do not believe you are fully electrically Isolated between the house and crank batts My personal opinion I would consider relocation of crank starter batts to the tray (if using a ute as a platform .. I would consider if mounting lithium batts into cabin space consider a roof mounted ram jet air cooler.. lithium will need to breath.. more than agm..
I had issues with mine from a perth company where it ran down so low it needed large number of amps to reboot the BM. Alternator could not produce enough amps so went to battery shop who had a special charger that fixed v issue. Wish I had brought a better battery....next one will be. Btw have same redarc charger
I've got a question for Heiner. He lays out an argument for not using Lithiums as starting batteries. I'm still weighing up whether to do it or not and have a query. With the Lithiums that are built with management systems so they can be charged by the car's alternator, would the 'cutting off' of the battery by their inbuilt battery management system once it's reached maximum charge damage the alternator? I've always been told that disconnecting the battery while the car is running or running a car without a battery harms the alternator and will eventually destroy it. Does Heiner have any insights into that? Thanks.
He's talking about batteries comprised of lots of pouch cells. There's no good way to secure them so they are vulnerable to vibration. Obviously 18650 or 2170's can be soldered into very secure arrangements, but you won't find many of these 12v component batteries made of cylinder cells, at least not right now...
082220/1628pst. That was the most intelligent discussion, educational even. The presentation was not scripted, the two people exchanged views and comments that came out quite naturally, which is very commendable. The gentleman in yellow Jacket explained well to the other gentleman, who was quite inquisitive to understand the intricacies of flooded Pb cell batteries and the LiFePo4 batteries, or the comparison between the two. I have yet to come across such intelligent program in YT in my life. No comments on “ others!” You know what I mean !
Thank you, both of you. My respects and 73s...
Very well done. I had my lithium’s shut down on me last year and wouldn’t take charge. Did the same thing as described with another battery and woke up the charger.
Great questions and a great report. Keep up the good work
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the prismatic being better. Especially in an off road scenario. Cylindrical cells are wound tightly and encased in a metal casing, This minimizes electrode material from breaking up from mechanical vibrations, thermal cycling from charging and mechanical expansion. The complete opposite to prismatic construction ! Remember those Optima glass matt super tough off road starter batteries from the 90s? No coincidence each cell was constructed in a cylindrical manner.
I’ve a lithium and matched with a redarc BCDC the advantages are amazing . Just the weight and capacity are enough on why I really like my set up. Steve 🇦🇺
We just upgraded from AGM's to Lithiums by building our own battery bank on our sailboat (we liveaboard) using 180 amp hour, 3.6-volt CALB cells, and a DALY BMS, wiring the cells in a 4s2p orientation. So stoked on the upgrade! We charge our lithiums in 2 different ways. We send the power from our 120 amp Balmar alternator on our engine to our 100 amp-hour sealed lead-acid starter battery. From there a Renogy 60 amp DC-DC charger takes the load from the alternator and puts it in a lithium profile and in turn charges the lithium batteries. It was a fun build!
I learned all of this when I quit smoking and started vaping , hahaha. Li-on batteries are great. Seems like there could be a little capacitor that would at least allow the charger to "see" the battery when its flat though. It will get normal really soon. AGM batteries are gonna be antiques .....maybe in the morning
This was a really helpful video. especially the last part about when you run a AGM or SLA off an inverter, compared to a Lithium battery.
Prismatic.... New word of the day.
there are three standard formats for Li-ion batteries: cylindrical, prismatic and pouch.
Prismatic. Sounds like religious nomenclature when spoken softly.
Very unclear definition as there are several DIFFERENT Lithium battery technologies. Main known ones are LiPo and LiFePo. The former is used in phones, Electric cars etc as it has higher energy density. But also the known ,explosive fire, variety. It use allows smallest size for given energy capacity. The storage battery presented is LiFePo variety, where the far more stable, less fire prone technology is better, at small loss of energy capacity for given volume is of no concern. But for clarity this presentation should not refer to just 'Lithium' battery but state the technology specifics. Even the optimal charging is affected by Lithium technolgy used.
Great video and really helpful. The comment about Prismatic cells confused me as it conflicted with some other research I have done. What I have identified is that some manufacturers provide protection both in terms of physical (explosion proof jacket) and electrical (internal fuses) at a cell level. Prismatic cells are bigger and therefore both more dangerous in the case of explosion and cylinder cells. Cylindrical cells because there are more of them, have more redundancy at a cell level so a problem with a single is less likely to be as serious. So it may be more true to say that the quality of the cells used is more important, and a reflection of cost, than whether they are prismatic or cylinder.
As someone that's trying to get a rig put together, and looking at the differences between these two batteries I really appreciate all this information, especially about how bad of an idea it is to put a lithium battery under the hood. Tons of great information here, thank you! I'll have to check out more of your video's. :D
You asked all the right questions, and Heiner answered very well. The first thing he answered well, was that the Lithium battery case is just a "housing" of the bits inside, so that case and how it looks is the thing that actually confuses everything...because if the look the same, then it should be the same, and that is where the issue starts. Lithiums are fantastic BUT you have to match and design it to work how you want, and unless you are technical at heart, you will struggle. You just started to touch on connecting multiple batteries at the end of the clip, and that is really when it gets complicated...if you need 24V or >200AH...then you really need to match and understand....whereas AGM's you can really still connect them in parallel and/or serial as you see fit, and when you need to...LifePo4 need planning. Great Video.
Awesome. I learned a lot.
I would live to see some info on putting Lithium batteries in a solar setup.
O man I have been watching so many videos on lithium batteries but this has put it in a way I could understand. Thanks so much. Brilliant.
Excellent discussion. However, here in the US we have a wide range of weather. During the year I can travel areas where the temperature can vary between -10 (-23C) to 115 (46C). At his time lithium batteries have complications when dealing with weather extremes that my 8D AGM’s don’t have. I’m excited about lithium battery potential, but right now they don’t answer all my needs like an AGM does.
so can it be a combo hybrid batery liuthiu + agm sort of ?
Interesting to see that AGMs (and FLAs) still "win" for certain applications such as under the hood of a car. Also, the guy wrongly said that a high current draw from an AGM battery lessens the capacity. That is not true. It doesn't significantly lessen the capacity of the battery, it just lessens the effective capacity of the battery at that higher amperage draw. For example, if a 100Ah rated AGM battery has 50Ah of usable energy (without damage to the battery) rated at the 20 hour drain rate, that means you can draw 2.5A for 20 hours to get 50Ah out of the battery (assuming a healthy fully charged battery). However if you instead put a 25A load on that same fully charged battery, then you wont get 2 hours @ 25A. You might only get 1.5 hours, but that doesn't mean the battery dropped to only 37.5 Ah usable energy. You can still extract the "missing" 12.5 Ah, just at a slower rate (such as the 2.5A rate). I suggest that draining the batteries either way (either 2.5A for 20 hours) or 25A for 1.5 hours, then 2.5A for 5 hours (both are 50Ah of drain), will leave the battery is a similar state of charge (around 50%). If you don't believe me, try it. I usually do capacity tests on batteries that way. I use a high drain rate until my inverter beeps (usually at 10.5V under load), then I lighten the load and keep going.
I have one big question left after this brilliant and very educational video: how or more when you gonna charge these batteries, when they don't like to be charged all the time by just a little. I mean, practically, you charge them, start your trip, use them for let's say 1 day and they are down to 70%. Do you then just switch off the charger and wait until it's down to 10% and only then switch the charger back on? But then you plan to just stay in one place for another 2 days but then your battery is flat?! How this works in real life?
I just bought an Ultra lead carbon battery, which so far seems amazing in terms of charging speed from Solar and can go to deeper discharge than AGM. (same price as AGM) Biggest issue for me with battery systems is the ridiculous prices for the DC to DC chargers like red arc.
Mark Jennings
You are correct in the price for the Battery management systems as lithium set up is expensive (chargers or bms), i have a back up power system in the house and was advised not to go lithium because of the risk of thermal runaway inside a house. AGM's have there down side but until lithium batteries is improved a bit more i will stick with the old tried and tested AGM batteries.
I learned a lot from this. Thank you. I could put a lithium starter under my seat in my Defender but then I heard 1. The price and 2. The trickle charge issue. So I'll stick with AGM for my starter battery.
I would not see the value in going lithium for a starter battery. Lead acid performs very well in this usage.
Love your work Andrew! Keep it up! I had so many questions about Lithium batteries and this is very insightful and answer almost all my questions, except 1. Almost all battery chargers and gauges measure the voltage of the battery to determine its state of charge. But since the Lithium battery has a virtually constant voltage (until shutoff), how do you measure/determine its state of charge?
FYI: Pb Crystal batterie are still available in OZ...
Most lithium ion batteries are made in China, then a company puts its name on it. The weak point of these can be the bms . When buying a battery, ask questions about the bms , if they can’t show you one or give you the proper specs in writing go elsewhere. A great source of information on this subject is Will Prowse’s TH-cam channel.
The most important question and answer (for me!) was the very last one; "why 2x 100ah batteries v. 1x 200ah battery." To add to the electrical engineering answer Heiner gave, unlike AGM/Flooded batteries, you can easily add more batteries to the system later. That means you can start with 1x 100ah battery + DC/DC charger+charger/inverter+MPPT solar controller for your system and then after your cardiologist bills are paid due to the sticker shock, you can buy another 100ah lithium and add it into the system ;-)
Great video Andrew. Heiner (sorry if I misspelt his name) is fantastic at giving clear explanations of the technology and the function of the batteries. You both did a great job. Really enjoyed it and feel much more confident about the value and limitations of lithium batteries. Thanks lads.
Really nice video Andrew. Heiner seems to really know his stuff.
as a RC enthusiast, the LiFePO4 batteries are the future if you want reliability, long term storage and cold weather operation. If you want larger capacity, straight lithium cells like a 18650. If you need high draw, fast discharge and recharge, LIPO. and I define high draw as 30-40C, as in draining 100ah in 5 - 10 minutes. Think drones or arc welding.
Great video, Andrew. I have just got into lithium power, all the factors of this new technology add up and significantly outweigh the larger initial outlay in dollar terms. I won't even mention the weight savings
Good informative video on lithium battery purchase breakdown. Thank you both for discussing this topic for us uninitiated campers !
I know others have stated this already but if anyone has questions about LiFe (lithium) batteries, battery management, whats good and whats garbage...go over to DIY Solar, Will Prowse's channel and watch some of his beginner videos. You'll learn a ton and its all honest info. All this electrical stuff seems complicated but once its explained correctly its not too bad.
The takeaway for me has been "Go with lithium" like a Battle Born or other quality make.
if you want to start your car with it, there are AGM batteries on the market eg.: Enersys EP, XE; Odyssey extreme, Powersafe SBS, Interstate MTZ,... example: Enersys XE16 12V 16Ah Crankingamps: >600A
or Odyssey PC2250 12V 125Ah Crankingamps: 2250A
That was great never could get my head around all that in the past but know light bulb has gone on. Thank you 👍👍
I'd like to add, where they rate the cycle life (2000cycles at 70% DoD for eg). It's my understanding it's a rating until the original capacity has reduced to 80% (100ah battery now holds 80ah). So essentially the life of the battery could go for many thousands more cycles with slowly diminishing capacity.
@@itsMSpace then add another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD while the battery has 80% of its original capacity and you've got yourself ? maybe 60% of its original 100ah when you bought it
so if you just ran a 50L fridge thats 8+ years and youd still have a 60ah battery that could last another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD.......... ~i need a lithium battery~
2000 cycles at 70% DOD isn’t very good for a lithium. Sounds like a cheap imported Chinese battery
@@VEOPengineering actually it's pretty good for 18650 lithium ion cells. Alot of the spec sheets say 500-1000 cycles. Those Winston lifepo4 cells seem to be rated at 5000 cycles 80% DoD. That's what I've made my packs with and can't fault them. No noticeable capacity loss after 6 years.
I’d never buy a battery based off 18650 cells. They don’t last and were never designed for this kind of application or for high discharge rates. My lithium can discharge at 250a constant (I have 2 under bonnet ) and rated for -20 to +80c temps and 3year full replacement warranty applies. This means I have 500a available for my winch, and that’s with the car turned off. My 200amp alternator can charge direct at 200amp to the battery no external bms so from flat to full is 1 hr. At idle I gain more charge in 30mins than solar could provide all day and I can run a 3000w invertor as well. Those cheap batteries can run a fridge and charge up some phones, camera batteries but lack the real performance. Cut them open and the bms is very basic and count the cells and they don’t match the claimed capacity
@@VEOPengineering We are talking about 2 different lithium battery chemistries here. I too would not buy a battery based off 18650 laptop cells. I however don't let them go to waste and build "Powerwalls" with them for other projects. My house runs off big lifepo4 cells. And I keep the charge between 30-90% at the extremes.
That's a very high C rate to charge your batteries in 1hr. Impressive none the less. Lead acid is archaic in comparison and reminds me of a sieve that leaks alot of the energy put into them.
Yep those inbuilt BMS are the limiting factors for lithium discharge rates. It makes people think they don't compare to AGM. But it's the complete opposite. Also lifepo4 is a safe battery chemistry. A Shame this wasn't explained properly in the video.
This guy needs to look into what a BMS does.....or BATTERY MANAGEMENT system does. One of its functions is to maintain the charge of each cell equally, ie ensure that all the cells are evenly charged and are charged up according to the charge required of each cell. What happens outside of the battery is reflected back to the BMS and it goes to work charging the cells according to the load on the battery.
The cut off is in alot of the chargers, if the charger knows it is a lithium battery that has fallen under a certain voltage, it will not charge it because the insides of the battery "May" catch on fire due to insides of the battery being damage. If you trick the charger to think it is not a lithium cell and charge it above a certain voltage, you can continue to recharge the lithium cell battery as a lithium cell. This worked for me.
Hi Andrew, I have a 120ah Lead crystal battery have done for a few years, after watching the video and the comment of possibly not being able to purchase Lead crystal batteries in Australia anymore, I had a look and there appears that you can still purchase them.
Trailer camper Australia was one of the sellers.
I learned a few things with this one, recently I also chose lithium. However, my biggest concern while choosing was not mentioned in this video: cold weather charging. Most lithium batteries bms will shut down bellow 0º to avoid damaging the cells. That's the only thing I would have liked to see mentioned in here. (Not a concern in Australia or South Africa I assume). Thanks for the great videos.
Mário Félix well it gets colder than 0 in Australia mate
Amazing video Andrew! Easy to understand and great information for all of us. I've been dying to get hold of a Lithium Battery in Malaysia but can't find one. Keep up the great work you are doing for the 4x4/overlanding community!!
So for engine compartment stored batteries. Extreme heat with lithiums is a concern in the desert temps of 100°f plus. Under hood temps can reach 200°f plus. The interior/cab alone here in south west Arizona can reach 122°f.
DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse. This guys channel is awesome
Definitely, he explains things so much better, and is better to watch what he does with them.
This guy sounded like an apprentice compared to Will.
Richie P Will is a genius on Lithium batteries and BMS but not specialized on electric systems used in mining, heavy duty used 4x4 and off-road camper vans. Heiner is the expert on that for Australien conditions. That the point in this vid. Cheers
Will is good at reading.
I bought 2 of those amptron batteries last year, havent installed them yet, just charged them and put them in the shed. Pulled them out last week and one was completely dead and would not wake up via jumpstart or via a proper power supply at a certain voltage. Its currently going back for investigation.
Great video Andrew and Heiner, thank you.👍
So... the take on this is: AGM battery good for under the hood of your car, GREAT starter battery and can handle the constant charging from your alternator as long as the engine is running. Lithium battery good for RV's, campers, running electric cars, motorcycles, trolling motors and golf carts. They are like deep cycle batteries that don't require constant charging while in use. Also, like the guy said, AGM battery can be on a constant charger and not hurt the battery. Lithium battery requires a special charger that shuts down the charging after the battery is fully charged. Both batteries have pros and cons depending on your application.
read some reviews, they don't like cold temperatures, and charging can be a issue unless you spend Big dollars getting the correct chargers unless you want them to fail/die after a period. Also i have some people telling me of thermal runaway inside there campers.
very good information
about lithium batteries for today
they are the best but very expensive
and the bms circuit prevent thermal runaway and causing the battery to explode from short circuit condition .
the only thing to worry about
lithium battery is physical puncture.
they say it lasts 2000 cycles
but in realty it reach alot lower than 2000 .
using a smart power charger that record the charging and discharging
curve (1st cycle recordings )using a constant load and this information can be compared to curves example after reaching 600 cycles
if the curves are 20% in difference expect the battery is fading away and can't last longer when it was brand new .
Thanks Andrew, stay safe and healthy!
Something to remember here is the information from Suppliers IS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT! I work in a battery shop & there is a very well known brand of lithium Motorcycle battery sold all over the world that advertise they are Prismatic cells. Every single one I have cracked open have lithium polymer cells with no protective casing! I dont sell these by the way.
I've spent years touring remote parts of Australia & spent a fortune on building my truck over time.. take it from me after testing multiple battery set ups, lithium IS the way to go & far superior to AGM batteries for your accessories/gadgets etc.. costly yes but not really considering the overall benefits.
LiFePO4 is a rollercoaster in my present build decision making. Yes there is deep discharge and high cycle life ability, very high (95%) Watt-hour efficiency and superb energy density per kg . However, very few products seem to have a convincing CCA rating for emergency engine starting, most prohibit in-series use to make 24V without more complex BMS, charging and general use below 0 Deg C seems restricted to 5% Amps of Ah size and/or need for heating mats. My latest discovery switching me off again is risk of alternator burnout due to very high current even when charging at low rpm when alternator cooling fan performance is low, demanding alternator temperature controlled charge regulation. I'm rapidly concluding some low capacity CCA rated AGMs and a small homemade Honda GX35 24V APU charger generator is the way ahead to back up plenty of PV and possibly a yacht type wind charger . LiFePO looks great for domestic offgrid however.
Amptron is based in Perth and a failed battery has to be returned to them "by them and their shipping". It may then take three months for replacement parts to be found. Great for camping?
The warranty also says "not transferable"? I thought that is eliminated by ACCC. Won't bother you cause you get given them and say such nice things about them. Don't forget to mention that to whoever buys your truck. Same thing with the lead crystal batteries?
I had a lead crystal battery have a cell or 2 drop late last year and it was replaced under warranty. I note this only to note that they clearly could supply the replacement in Australia.
The new technology is Lithium Titenate. They are fire proof and damage proof. They are 20,000 cycles ie life- time batteries . Also you can charge them in ten minutes. You can discharge them at massive amperages also. These will function from -59C to +65C- LTO - AWESOME!
Companies in the USA are selling these now with 11 year warranties. But I live in a hot climate, so how long are these going to last in the Oz heat?
Newish AC chargers, such as the Noco genius family, now have the "force mode" where you can push current through when the battery has very low voltage/undetectable, which would happen in a lithium iron phosphate when the BMS goes into low voltage protection and the voltage sense at the terminals becomes ineffective. I bet future Dc-Dc chargers will also begin including this mode as an option if they haven't already.
I am leaning more and more towards Lithing batteries. I just wish they were not so expensive, but I did see your prior video re the comparison of AGM and Lithium over 10 years cost and amperage. The lithium battery curve is kinda similar to Ni-Cad batteries where they both give full power until nearly the end of the power source then drop radically to 0. This man Heiner is fantastic he really knows his information.
It really comes down to how many amps your drawing each day to see which is best value for money
Genuinely USEFUL information . I am doing a Build currently after being off the " Scene " for a LONG time .
I know how to build a Killer Off-roader , but this kind of tech I am way out of Date on .
Lithium Iron Phosphate cells (prismatic) batteries (like this one) are not as energy dense as some lithium chemistries but are essentially inert, so they are suited to situations where the size is less important, for example larger vehicles.
Was so close to getting lead crystal 18 months ago, went to AGM instead as i couldnt get the right size. At the time Lithium was 4 times the price of the AGM now that Lithium has come down would go that way. That being said have had no problem with the AGM setup very happy with it.
I think you can run a Lithium Batterie direct conected via BMS (Batterie Management System) to the alternator. As well as via solar charger and BMS. The BMS ( at least mine) will bring down the charging current to the amount the batterie wants. What do you think?
So by the information you just have explained, if I want to use a lithium battery as my main power, then I should mount it some place else, other than the engine compartment. So that it could stay as cool as possible, away from any heat source. Or else it I do use it in the engine compartment, then I should install a cool ventilation system for the battery.
Just on the whole charging thing, Victron, a very well respected manufacturer of such things, produce LiFePO4 batteries and will sell you a split charge system for it.
The battery data sheets ask for almost identical charging specs to lead acid batteries.
I was looking at switching to a lithium ion battery for my dualsports motorcycle until I read some reviews. They don't like cold temperatures, and can't be charged in the very cold temperatures. I live in Canada.
Then just put a battery heat blanket for them, that is what we do. I would never go back to twice the weight with half the use.
They would work fine in as cold of temperature as I would ride my motorcycle. However the trickle continuous charging is probably a concern.
This video is a Godsend but I still have one question. In order to provide optimum conditions for a long service life what level of charge is preferred by lithium batteries before recharging.
It all comes down to the BMS most lithium batteries that are used in RC cars can easily deliver several hundred amps despite being only a few AH in capacity, granted they are usually a slightly different chemistry but I wouldn't be suprised if the cells inside that battery could deliver 500amps easily. A top notch BMS could easily be used as a replacement for a starter battery if you mounted somewhere it wouldn't get too hot whether that's worth the price or not is another thing entirely though.
Great video.
Can you charge a lithium battery with a Epever mppt charge controller.
I believe it has a special setting??
Should i/should i not wire a winch to my secondary lithium battery and use winch while running engine, or always wire winch to lead acid starter battery and use when engine running?
Winch to the starter battery. The lithium can't supply the required amps.
Hi Andrew
I’ve been a regular follower of your videos through the years even while you where in SA
I bought your book”Ultimate Guide to a Four-Wheel Drive in Southern Africa “way” back when, when you still resided in SA
That was just for record - now you in Australia and the videos I look-at all you “down-under” 4x4 enthousiasts talk of a Lithium PRISMATIC cell battery
When I “surf” looking for cost in SA all I pick-up is
Lithium-ion or Lithium iron LifePo4
Now my question is the Lithium battery the same as Lithium-ion and / or Lithium iron LifePo4
Kindly advise - will greatly be appreciated
Regards
JC
Andrew. I am looking to replace my three 110amp 7 year old Full River AGM deep cycle batteries .
The batteries are housed in a rack under the tray of my Iveco 4x4.
I became keen on the Enerdrive e power B tec lithium batteries.
Reading the fine print the Enerdrive are not suitable for fitment in exposed weather eg under the tray for a 4x4 truck or under the chasis of a caravan.Is that the norm for lithium in general? Also some suppliers are saying lithium should not be connected in series. Say if I want to add an additional battery later.
Extremely informative, thank you!
Hi Andrew- You talked about the battery management system - then you talked about let-s see if that Lithium battery after it shut itself off will be able to start itself back up again ( it-s actually a LiFePo4 so a Lithium Phosphate i believe )
at that point you mentioned you have a 50 Amp REDARC BCDC charger ( i think that what you said) and that s where I had to stop to write this comment-
Being in the same boat as everyone else i am trying to figure out what to do and buy for my Outback power supply needs and why get this over that ...etc etc
so the REDARC BCDC charger actually has a BMS function that will be able to restart a Lithium battery when it turned it self off- so in this case and in your test I guess you would not know that the battery managment system was actually the thing that turned the battery back on or NOT- just a point I observed and hope this is of some assistance- It would be better to find out if that battery management system in that particular battery would be doing it's job by not using the REDARC unit but something inferior which doesn't have the BMS function-...
I am totaly new to all of that but just been doing a lot of research on the DCDC chargers and the 1250D BCDC REDARC is my current choice though I wish it had some functions that the DCDC ENERDRIVE charger has -
anyway- I am grateful you made this video as I have to go and get my whole battery management system checked over and ADD new batteries and a DCDC Charger since I had not run my Car for 3 years due to this stupid COVID crap and the Car was in Storage while I was stuck overseas- I was going to book VOLTAIC in Perth to do my upgrade and add new batteries ...but you seem to also have a lot of knowledge of maybe other good and reputable companies in Perth which you might want to recommend to me- I am certainly learning a lot lately and it is all a bit overwhelming to say the least LOL- Have a great day and safe travels always- Cheers
Great info Andrew! Great idea to go to the shop and compare....
you gonna love the lithium, enjoy. Surprised that your redarc jump started the management system. I have to jump start the management system on my batteries.
I wonder if its because I have 2 75 amp batteries and you only had one for the test. Will be interesting to see once you have fitted both??? Maybe a follow up on this episode? or maybe its the relion management system vs the Amtron?
As you saw on mine I have linked my started motor to the lithium batteries using a kill switch, so its hassle free to jump start both ways if needed.
I just ordered 2 x Amptron 100ah batteries thanks to you! 👍👍
I can vouch for the cheap litho batteries. I have one on my set up and it works soooo well even after a year of use and I don't treat it nicely
Great video. Was tempted to replace my AGM battery with Lithium but now I need to ensure my inverter and my charge controller can stop charging once the battery is full, meaning i will need to further invest in a shunt.
most smart charge controllers know when to shut off and that is why you use a proper charge controller rather than a dumb isolator switch.
lifepo4 battery construction types: 1. pouch cells OR cylindrical cells OR prismatic cells. Best option for a mobile application (e.g. in a vehicle) is prismatic, 2. THE BMS. does it have hight temp voltage disconnect? does it have low temp voltage disconnect? max amp charge? max amp discharge? max continuous discharge? max/min charge temp? recommended charge temp?Just some of the specs that are important. SO, basic summary based on cost of a battery: On average a good 100AH BMS costs $80 and A grade 100ah 3.6v prismatic cells cost $150 (there are 4 in a battery) = $680 in parts excluding the sundries. Obviously battery manufacturers have economy of scale and cost of components is less HOWEVER if you're buying a battery under $800 ( definitely if under $600) the quality is absolutely questionable. I bought an Amptron lifepo4 battery before seeing the brand on this channel, purchase decision was based on their specs and price. The likes of Revolution batteries for $2k are NOT necessary unless you require a very high discharge rate (check out their specs compared to Amptron or similar brands) and there are no other selling points to the cost of a $2k battery. Hope that helps for anyone who's interested
Be careful because there are some battery brands that you can find on Amazon where the manufacturer advertises a BMS, but they don’t bother to tell anyone they disabled it due to customer complaints. It was preventing any discharge below 32F while their intent was to cut charging below 32. You must read the reviews in depth to know this. One such brand is Ampere Time, you can kill the battery as a result.
I’ve just installed a 1500w inverter to make coffees on the road, I’ve got 1x 100amp agm and 1x 75amp agm with my car running and a 40amp dcdc charger charging the 2 batteries the voltage drops to 11.6v from 14.4v . I’ll be interested to see how many cycles I get .
I really like this video as with most of them. I would like to point out something in regards to the dc to dc charger vs. charging from the alternator. If you have a Smart alternator which many new or late model vehicles have you must use a dc to dc charger with any battery, Gel, Lead acid, Lithium etc... in order to achieve a full charge.
After having Lithium for deep cycle battery for nearly 6months there is no going back to Agm in my main 4wd.
1. Lighter weight for same physical size.
2. As said about 100amp battery. Agm you get 50amp usage and maybe 1000cycles Li you get 80amp and 2000cycles.
3. The higher voltage of Li means less amps used
4. The quickness of recharging Lithum is main reason never going back to AGM in 4wd. Can charge at 1/4 of battery rating up to 95% capacity. So 100amp battery can take 25amps until 95% then goes to float charge. In 3 engine hours full battery with the right dcdc charger or if using solar to charge when sunlight is strong the battery usually accept all of the amps being produce and not shedding it as in agm charging cycle.
If cycle between 30 and 70% charge it is in theory able to cycle 5000 times
And that is worth a $1,000 Battery vs a $200 battery ? Are your pockets lined with GOLD ?
Very entertaining and informative; thanks for making our lockdown a bit easier sir.
Fantastic informative video Andrew (as usual). Thanks so much for putting it together and thanks to Heiner too. Really informative and contains great, simple to digest detail. Lithium all the way. 👍
interesting... I just did some reading and i quote"Prismatic cells, on the other hand, are lighter designed to conserve space. This makes it easy to connect four cells together and create a 12V battery pack. While being costlier, their thinner layering and rectangular shape mean that the product designer has more choice. They aren’t without their disadvantages, if one prismatic cell fails, the whole battery pack will be affected." all information I have read today says that prismatic have a massive disadvantage in that if one cell dies the whole battery dies and the opposite can be said for cylindrical cells. Your friend here Andrew Quotes the exact opposite?
When lithium batteries drop below a certain thresh hold, some chargers will not charge them. If the voltage is low enough, it can cause the insides to deteriorate quite badly, maybe cause a fire maybe. Force charging it with an alternator can solve this because it does not know it is a lithium battery.
16850s all spot welded together are good enough for Tesla. Its actually a very efficient way to do it.
A very good video Andrew, giving the average 12v electrical DIY 4wder punter a great explanation into the new frontier of Lithium batteries. It is a new technology that needs to be explained as the rules regarding capacity, charging, discharging, float charge etc of a AGM battery that we are all familar with...doesn't apply. The question I raise with your video...The connecting of several lithium batteries in paralell? 1/. Can this be done as some Lithium Manufacturers have said "within reason" providing the combined amount of Ahr of the batteries does not exceed the battery maximum discharge rate. An example...the maximum discharge rate of a single Lithium 100Ahr could as an example be 200Ahr...so you can parallel connect only two 100Ahr Lithium batteries. Some manufacturers...ie cheapie manufactured sub $600 Lithium...say no problem...they can parallel more than two batteries. Whilst other manufacturers have have flatly say NO...get a bigger capacity lithium battery. 2/. The thickness of the wiring needed for parallel connection is now debatable..it needs to be heavier...what type of heavy wiring and connectors? 3/. The age of the lithium batteries used. Example..all the lithium batteries connected in parallel need to be similar age and manufacturer..why? different BMS used by the manufactures. Could these questions be explained in the future.
Peter, "in general" getting Lithium batteries connected in parallel is not an issue. But devil's in the details. There are conditions you/batteries should meet. All that is about batteries impedance. Less impedance battery will work harder both ways - charging/discharging. Therefore if you plan to have batteries in parallel it is fine but rather for more storage than ability to draw more current. You still can draw more current from them than from one but you need to bare in mind that any inequality in parameters of those batteries will work against them (and you!). If you have a need for more storage and casual need of drawing more than one can handle then having parallel set up is not an issue... UNDER CONDITION you will have exactly same model of battery and same age. So they will be as close to same as possible. In fact I'm using similar setup for 48V Li-Ion already.
Any Radio Ham, who uses an ICOM IC-7000 transceiver, may like to know, that this radio can shut-down if the input voltage is less than ~12V DC.
There are devices, that can boost voltage to slightly above 12V, to enable the radio to function, even if the input (to the boosting device) drops below 12V, but, this adds ~$100 to the total system cost... due to an ICOM design glitch, IMO.
Worse (at least in AU): The case of an IC-7000 tends to run warm to hot, even in Receive-mode. I once sold an IC-7000, due to this "overheating" issue, when I was working in the Outback, in warmer seasons. Some warm days would "help" the radio to heat its case to temp's that we didn't want to touch!)
Good information. But the recycling of litium batteries is still quite problematic, reusing the metals is quite difficult because all the expensive metals are in such form. They say that 25-50% of the batterys weight has to recyclabe, but most of the weight is in the plastic/aluminium casing -manganese, nickel, lithium are burned in smoke in high temperatures. Burning is sometimes considered as "recycling" as they calculate the level of recylcability. Ofc they are doing research and building new recycling centers, that are able to collect the rare earth metals that the batteries have inside them, with powerful acids and solvents. Putting a lithium battery in a lead acid battery recycling -its bad - okay - , it causes explosion/fire in the battery crusher.
Otherwise lithium battery have some awesome electrical propeties. As soon as they get the recycling working as good as in the lead industry I am going to get myself one of those.
ok, so i'm researching Lithium for off grid power for a home. what I feel makes a big difference is with AGM you should not discharge more than 30% - 50% often before recharging to conserve life. lithium you can cycle deeper to 80% + without shortening the life. now you can reduce your battery capacity by 1/2 for storage reasons. ie, I use 7Kw/day and would like to have 3 days storage before charging, hence with agm, I need a 70KW bank, with lithium, I can use a 35Kw bank. agm charge slowly, and at a rate of no more than 10% capacity, lithium is 30%. so far, lithium is winning for off grid for me.
Discharging & recharging any battery will shorten its life. A 35 KW Li-Ion a battery bank will cost approx $30,000 every 10 years vs a 70 KW Lead-Acid battery bank will cost approx $4,500 every 5 years. Therefore, Li-Ion is no bargain. Are your pockets lined with GOLD ?
When talking about lithium batteries, one really needs to distinguish between the different families of lithium batteries, as they are quite different animals. The two most common forms are NCM and LFP batteries.
NMC batteries have a cathode composed by a combination of lithium, nickel, manganese and cobalt-oxide. These batteries achieve the highest power densities among Li-batteries and therefore are the chemistry of choice for electric vehicles and electronic devices. However, they will enter into thermal runaway when reaching a temperature of approx 200˚ C and overcharging can push such batteries to reach such temperatures unless the BMS steps in. They can also catch fire when punctured.
LFP batteries, by contrast, use cathodes composed by lithium-iron-phospate. They have lower cell voltages (3.2V) and reach lower energy densities than NMC batteries, but are way more tolerant to abuse. While they still can catch fire, it's much more unlikely and when punctures, they simply leak electrolyte. They also tend to reach high cycle-counts (i.e. longer lifetime) than NMC batteries and tend to be comparatively cheaper.
That was very well explained. I wasn’t too sure about Lithium Iron batteries before but now I’m sold at least on this brand.
$1,000 for a battery ... Are your pockets lined with gold? Have you ever spent $1,000 for 2 lead acid batteries within 10 years ?
I am curious about how to set up and run duel batteries. It would be nice if you make a video about duel battery use also, that includes conventional and lithium.
honestly andrew, unless you are running the vehicle's width in batteries it is an unknown what the input and output you have ..
with an understanding whilst it might support electrical isolation in charging it likely doesn't offer complete isolation in power ..
Noting with chargers some will run hot if charging in 12 volt some will recommend 24 volt or better..
better recharge cycles is why you go with lithium however a point to note you are better to run the in series as house batts and the more you use the better
whether you support dc to dc charging via alternator, some form of solar or genset or mains charging make from the mains point of veiw that you are behind a fused inlet..
all I know if you are going to use 100 a/h house capable make sure the crank batts you use are within the use parameters as i do not believe you are fully electrically Isolated between the house and crank batts
My personal opinion I would consider relocation of crank starter batts to the tray (if using a ute as a platform ..
I would consider if mounting lithium batts into cabin space consider a roof mounted ram jet air cooler.. lithium will need to breath.. more than agm..
Great info! Love the free flowing nature of the video.
I had issues with mine from a perth company where it ran down so low it needed large number of amps to reboot the BM. Alternator could not produce enough amps so went to battery shop who had a special charger that fixed v issue.
Wish I had brought a better battery....next one will be.
Btw have same redarc charger
Can you please do a video about the different between lithium and lead crystal battery please
I've got a question for Heiner. He lays out an argument for not using Lithiums as starting batteries. I'm still weighing up whether to do it or not and have a query. With the Lithiums that are built with management systems so they can be charged by the car's alternator, would the 'cutting off' of the battery by their inbuilt battery management system once it's reached maximum charge damage the alternator? I've always been told that disconnecting the battery while the car is running or running a car without a battery harms the alternator and will eventually destroy it. Does Heiner have any insights into that? Thanks.
Nice pair of William painter sunglasses Andrew. I had the same pair many years ago
A kit is the parts to build something with a plan. What your describing is equipment / gear.
Prismatic vs 18650s, Tesla battery packs are comprised of hundreds of small 18650 cells without seemingly issues with durability.
He's talking about batteries comprised of lots of pouch cells. There's no good way to secure them so they are vulnerable to vibration. Obviously 18650 or 2170's can be soldered into very secure arrangements, but you won't find many of these 12v component batteries made of cylinder cells, at least not right now...
Rocking the William Painter Sunglasses... (I have seen their ad too many times).