that was technically a secret/unlockable, but I am warming up to the idea of a character "variations" system rather than those sorts of things being entirely separate skins
I wish a Sonic game would just let me use all three. Jump and tap for an instashield. Hold to turn it into a dropdash. Hold up and jump from the ground to peelout. There's no conflict there, and mods have proven how fun it is to play like that.
it's funny that STJ are opposed to the idea of a Sonic with two selectable abilties when most players probably have 10 different Sonic mods each with a different moveset
As a modded player I support this, having Sonic, Team Sonic, Neo Sonic, Shadow, Tyson Hess Sonic, and the wherehog all provide completely different experiences
LONG LIVE THE THOK. As someone who played SRB2 in 2007 or so, I think seeing someone who has mastered the thok on netplay made me associate that with being good at SRB2. And it has only gotten more interesting and fun to use over time as levels have adapted to go with it, and mods like XMomentum have come out in case you get bored of the current vanilla gameplay. But just watch the "community" refuse to entertain the concept of actual debate, because having constructive conversations about the gameplay of the game is a no-no.
@@spimbles That's because those devs are mostly from content creator close circles themselves, and these close circles... have very strong opinions on what SRB2 should be like.
I just want them to finish the rest of levels instead of suddenly trying to overhaul mechanics that have been in the game for years at this rate we'll never get Dark City Zone
that's the new team for ya, worrying more about "ALROGHT GOOYS, HOW DO WI COMPWEYLY ROUIN A CHOROTER TOODEY?!" rather than simply building the game and making it full and NOT "fix" stuff for their..strange taste.
Sonic Team JR have to start getting better with taking feedback and actual communication, literally the reason for like 90% of the debate in the first place. This game for the longest time was pretty much run by the community (it is a fangame, after all, not to mention the mods), so seeing them keep everything behind closed doors and leaving some table scraps every blue moon is strange, to say the least. Honestly, if there's one character they gotta tweak the move-set for, it has to be Fang. I like his double jump but I don't like the weight it gives you and the shooting mechanic is very finicky to get a hold of and for some reason you have to be standing still.
I think Fang should be allowed to shoot while moving, but his bullets would be slower (vanilla srb2) and less accurate. While not moving his bullets are faster and more likely to hit the target. This way his bullet game play would have depth because you could bet on his moving fire hitting or stop to get a precise shot.
This reminds me of the combat update for Minecraft for some reason. There was a huge divide, and no commands that allows you to use the old attack system
I really think they should just map the new ability to the spin button when aerial. Removing features is always something that will be testy with your audience even more so when it's part of your games identity like the THOK. So I highly doubt anyone would care if you just gave sonic more movement, espically if it was dropdash/wallcharge it would feel the most natural there anyway. The nu-devs in general seem to make very perplexing decisions when the community is concerned. Other thing I'll say is I don't think the Sonic Frontiers example is the best comparison as it does somewhat prove the point of why too many options is bad. With certain momentum settings in that game the final horizons challenges are not possible to do. Though coversely this does show why "lol just mod in old momentum" is a very poor argument, however.
Yeah, it seems like a positive on the surface but I feel like the customizable controls in Frontiers (base game) just made it so they couldn't really design any platforming challenges that didn't involve a lot of dash pad and spring use since it'd mean they would have to account for different slider settings. The update pretty much threw all of that out in favor of a more manual play style and you got a lot of people saying the games controls don't work for the level of challenge when I think they were really designed around the games control with everything (particularly jump deceleration and ground acceleration) set at max or at least close to that.
0:36 EW, DONT COMPARE ME WITH THEM jokes aside, i am actually with keeping a thok and I agreed with a lot of the points in your old video, I just think that instead of replacing the thok with a homing attack, they should keep the thok, implement the new sonic ability and let it be a configurable option. I feel this would make everyone happy, since those who are with keeping the thok get to have the thok, and those against keeping the thok can use whatever new goofy ability nu-srb2jr is going to give him.
Im ngl an argument for mechanics being too simple is crazy. As an avid difficult game enjoyer, I have learned: The more simple the mechanics the further the skill level could be stretched. The argument of a simple mechanic being too simple or too hard is crazy because its both. Its EASY to pick up and HARD to master. Thats what makes simple mechanics FUN.
For those who want to add verticality to sonic's moveset, I recommend the Climbdash addon. It gives the abilities of the dropdash if you haven't used the thok yet in the air plus an upward boost against a wall. There is also Climbdash+, but I use the regular version since CD+ letting you spam the upward boost against one wall makes it pretty broken. I plan on making my own version of the CD that works to my liking.
As someone who recently started playing SRB2 (or at least, got more into it recently)... I don't see what they mean when they say the thok is too hard or unforgiving for newcomers? Like, yeah i definetly do overshoot and get hit or die because of it, but that's my fault and all that tells me is "I need to learn how to handle it", not "Let's never use that" (And to an extent, i did kinda learn to use it. I still fuck up sometimes, but i can still manage it). Now sure, i might be an outlier since i also play Megaman and that series is basically known to kick your teeth in until you learn how to properly play, but i feel like most of the newcomers that ARE gonna be interested enough in SRB2 to get invested in it and stick around aren't gonna be dumb enough to just completely avoid a move because they can't control it at first.
The thok not working with momentum sounds like complete bullshit to me. There are multiple examples of Sonic games with momentum that have air dashes similar to the thok. It definitely sounds like the devs trying to make an excuse to justify replacing the thok, rather than it being a legit issue.
Said this on one of your previous videos before, but I feel like stating it again; My opinion on what Sonic's ability should be in the future is somewhere in the middle, I want a thok that is objectively better, being slightly based off momentum rather than being a set speed no matter what, which can result in slowing you down if you are too fast and accelerating somewhat too quickly from a standstill. The new momentum build you brought up seems really cool, basically the same movement you know and love but better. Having the idea to pick multiple versions of the same character would actually be pretty cool, such as vanilla Sonic having multiple options such as the a new ability, the thok, and possibly remakes of some other Sonic movesets new and old. It wouldn't just be good for the vanilla game and character variety, but can also help modding; instead of having to make a different Sonic or multiple variations of your custom character an entirely separate skin, it could be a new variant! On a similar note, I have recently thought of the idea that they should move most of the major changes nu-STJr is making to a hypothetical SRB3. It would be pretty cool to "finish" SRB2 with a smaller scope, and bring the ambition and innovation to a proper sequel instead of changing the original game into something that it isn't. They could push out smaller major updates at a more frequent pace, eventually making the vanilla roster of levels complete and having a good holster of bonus content and unlockables, as well as continuing to maintain modern technical standards while still staying true to the original game and its vision. If this were to happen in real life they wouldn't even have to scrap the 2.3-designed levels if they had a "remake" of SRB2 (even if that be a relatively basic set of levels) within SRB3!
Honestly? yeah. SRB2 wouldnt feel the same without the thok, and atleast if they do get rid of it, they should make it a toggleable option to have it or not have it with a new moveset. Somewhat like how in the rereleases in the classic games and in mania, you can toggle sonic's moveset to be either 1, 2 or CD or 3*
Always disappointing to see people who want to shut down conversations just because they're personally tired of them. People who tell people to shut up on the internet should take their own advice. If it really pains you that much to see a conversation take place just close the tab, do something else, turn off your computer and go outside, nobody is holding you hostage.
For me, just keep the THOK while adding some kind of vertical movement for Sonic (the spindash on wall could work well, or maybe give the THOK a lil' bit of verticality if it gets to hit a wall) I am not the best at the game, but playing with Sonic is fun, but also kinda unfair and a difficulty spike, I do believe the devs reasoning of people choosing Sonic instead of any other character first, but then leaving the game because Eggman Castle is way to hard is pretty much true The easiest way to fix it WITHOUT changing every single platform in the game, is just verticality (would also help mod stages)
I've been playing srb2 for as long as I had a computer. I would'int mind something new for sonic than what I always considered to be a watered down homing attack.
Honestly, yeah, I agree with the more opitions solution. The fact that new sonic.jr are this stubborn to adding more opitions is quite concerning Also, I think they're gonna change amy's abilities, at least according to a video that was posted on the official srb2 discord. Any thoughts on that?
Why would they change Amy's abilities? SRB2 Amy is one of the best versions of her. They're not going to make her a generic Sonic clone like the modern games do are they?
@@thomashatch3673They're basically restoring the abilities she had back during 2.1, before she was officially added into the game, as she was originally a modded character.
nu st.jr just doesnt have the same creative vision the old team had. this means they dont know why the old mechanics were there, they dont know the rationale behind those choices, and so they are going to make changes that conflict with the original vision. This is why most people take complete creative control, but for a fan game thats this old, the new crowd was eventually going to push the old one out.
i said this once and will say it again rework the thok to work with the new physics and have it as a "jump-jump" ability and the breakfast sandwich be the "jump-dash" ability which gives the thok new life while also allowing you to do whatever the new control set does if you want to get more technical as a modded version player i have seen people make similar move sets that actually work without it being too complicated
the better solution is to make the thok like the momentum thok from Xmomentum where it speeds up as you do way better to use with momentum but not really replacing it just updating it to work with the new physics and plus most people use x momentum so many people will like this change
So kinda like how the Slide Dash from my first character mod is affected by the current speed of the character. I like it, makes the rest of SRB2 Sonic's kit like the Spindash more important too.
Why does everyone just say either "remove the thok" or "keep the thok", and not just tweak or rebalance it? No one will probably listen to this but oh well heres my take. First one some considerations: a) Obviously you have to make it appeal to both new and old players. I don't think players will straight up quit over the thok being changed, for example SparkTEJ3 phased out the jester powers almost completely, but it wasn't a major concern point to many people because of how good the game was. b) You have to remember that if given options, most people will choose whichever is the most powerful or fun. Like, i don't think anyone plays Frontiers without turning jump deceleration off because turning it off makes the game objectively better. Most P-06 players use the legacy jump dash since it preserves momentum better. And I don't think anyone playing mania plays with anything other than the drop dash. So the mindset of making a single option that's just really good makes sense. So before changing the thok you gotta look at the issues with it, but also what makes it good so you don't mess that up. Pros: - It's just fun to thok around. - Helps you clear larger gaps. - Gives the game a consistent high speed pace when playing as sonic. Cons: - Has a skill wall, but is an overpowered ability when you get the grasp for it. So it's a unique case where it falls into both too hard and too easy. - Game and level design often encourages spamming it, since this is an instant (over) top speed ability. - Makes losing speed as sonic non-punishing apart from lost 2 seconds from getting hit itself. - Kinda nullifies the purpose of the spin dash for sonic, other than clearing massive gaps where you absolutely NEED the extra speed. In conclusion? It's basically an instant top speed ability. It helps to keep a consistent fast pace of the game but at the same time flattens the level design out and makes it difficult to design around other characters. Now let's get to my proposed rework! First off let's go over momentum changes this is designed around, because this is important: - You no longer slow down while on the ground - Slopes now give you speed (why isn't this a thing already) - The thok can be used in any direction, still based on the camera rotation. (why isnt this a thing already its such a no brainer) - Using it gives you a very slight burst of speed. (ground acceleration would be faster than spamming the thok) - You cannot go over the ground speed cap with the thok, but the following still apply. - Your momentum is fully redirected in the direction you use it in. - VERTICAL momentum is fully cancelled when you use it. That's basically it, so, on paper: - There is no longer an advantage to spamming it, you gotta use the level design and spin dash to go fast (that's why the earlier momentum changes were important) - Much more viable at low speed platforming sections. - Momentum redirection can let you keep a consistent pace during the level but requires higher skill as you need to get the speed another way. - Still lets you clear large gaps with vertical momentum cancelling, and also help you with platforming section (you know how celeste reduces your gravity when you're at the peak of your jump, this sorta simulates that) With this rework proposal i tried to keep the pros and fix the cons I outlined, It would require the momentum changes from earlier to fully thrive but overall i think this is a good middle ground. And remember, I'm not trying to say this is the objectively better option, just throwing an idea.
i wish both abilitys where there the breakfeast snadwich would be jump and spin and thok would be the same and the breakfast sandwich would be a no shield move
wait, there’s debate around the thok in the first place? why? **watches video** oh. yeah no now i can see why. yeah no it is pretty odd for the dev team to do this. i just think i’m in a weird position as someone who’s been on and off with srb2 for years that i kinda don’t care that much. but i can still see how it’s a bit strange for a dev team, especially for a fangame, to be so resistant to feedback. makes it sound like something you hear on a poorly manage indie game or smth
just binged basically all your srb2 videos surrounding the community and nu-stjr personally, i think its nigh time nu-stjr gets the boot the community needs to get their shit together too imo
If it ain’t broken don’t fix it I think. SRB2 always been a game about its community and collaborators, it’s a shame NuSTJ seems so resistant to change and the community’s voice
A point that I think could've been elaborated more so on the topic of how Superstars went about a new ability is in how it lead to the discussion of how Trip ends up making Knuckles and Amy redundant in terms of how their abilities work. A lot of the "solutions" I've seen pushed for whatever ability should replace the thok weirdly take a strange opposite to the conversation where there's a complete disregard for the other characters in the roster. Things like the breakfast sandwich and rebound dash (aside from all the astericks of context senseitivities to them) come at a complete disregard to what unique things the other playable characters have, the biggest elephant that should come up with these suggestions also is Knuckles in terms of how they relate to scaling and breaking unique walls.With how Knuckles is typically seen as a character who has unique routes to his own a lot of these thok replacements just completely disregard this angle of the conversation. A counter point I believe some people may raise is "there are modded characters that barely have any differences also". SRB2 for as mod friendly as it is, should not have to rely on mods to make the ideal play experience for others. If anything it may deteur people from making mods if you get too relient on this aspect, as a lot of what is made for SRB2 is primarily held on its foundation. Best example I can think of with that would be Duke Nukem Forever as that game at launch came with all kinds of modding tools but no one used them because the base game was just that bad of an experience. Ultimately if they're wanting to overhaul a character that badly then why not Amy and/or Fang? They're both relatively recent in terms of SRB2's life and have a fair amount of people already detracting from them in especially how they play. It's more worth it to just smooth out their experience then focus on a legacy character. Besides as a pro-thoker I've taken to the idea of the ability as Sonic becoming a bullet. Being a game traditionally played in a 3rd person style with keyboard and mouse, that's perfection in simplicity. Any changes made should probably have that mindset taken into account imo.
honestly if there ever really is a need to introduce some depth to thok, they can just merge it with jump-thok and make it sensitive to a jump-tap or a jump-hold so it doesn't ride into pressing spin while jumping (which while technically available, i feel like sonic of all characters should only be able to utilize it for shields and not have an ability that can get cut off by shields). tap the button for a purely horizontal speed burst like what we have today, hold it to jumpthok instead and trade some of that speed for height, then build levels in a way that compliments both variations. add a little bit of depth to it, keep the thok fundamentally the same, cut down on that weirdly large number of custom unused abilities baked into the game for whatever reason! win-win all around
If they really want to bring in a new ability, then it should go on a new character. If the Thok doesn't work with the new physics, then they need to slightly rework it. The Thok is, to me, synonymous with SRB2, even though I used to hate it when I wasn't used to it, it's what made SRB2 fun for me. Also the Breakfast Sandwich is almost exactly like Trip's ability, so if they wanted to increase the roster size while implementing an interesting ability, they should use her instead of fixing what doesn't need to be fixed.
In regards to what you said about the thok replacement alienating a good brunt of the SRB2 community and making them stick to 2.2, I wouldn't be surprised if, should that happen, that people mod in their own versions of Dark City Zone and whatever remaining levels to fit 2.2 if/when those levels release.
i just dont think srb2 is srb2 if you kill the thok. to me, srb2's identity could be divided into two halves: the thok, and SSN's art. SSN's art being replaced is understandable given he cant work on the project for the rest of his life. it had to happen at some point. but the thok has no reason to go. it is the heart and soul of SRB2's gameplay. i say this as someone who has never been very good at thokking unless im playing wasd+mouse.
It's just a worse airdash. There's nothing unique bout it other than the cute name and cool history. It's honestly makes it feel pointless to play sonic since everyone either has their own nieche or is just better. Well except fang I guess.
@@JuneCole29so why was it around for almost 25 years? clearly, if it's a "worse airdash", then they probably would have removed it long ago, and that's basically what makes Sonic unique for all the other characters
@@Zayd-u4k It doesn't make him unique so much as it makes him kinda unfun and boring. I will admit that my comment was written in spite and anger and this not exactly well argued. Also legacy does not always equate to quality. Honestly I just think they should just do the rebound dash and just rename it to the rebound thok since that's about what the ability already was and in spirit the thok lives on I suppose.
Re-iterating the comment I left on the last video. The thok is cool. And the new ability is cool too, though it feels like it belongs in a modded character.
"If most srb2 players like the current physics" The amount of custom maps I play with level design that screams it was made with momentum mods in mind suggest otherwise to me. lol I really can't wait for an update to standardize full momentum physics already cause being a stickler for playing as vanilla as possible its annoying playing a custom map that goes ham on all the slopes you have to take 5 seconds to spindash up if you don't use a physics mod. Oh right, this is a thok video. I think I said a bunch of dumb things last time that I'll just disregard. Regarding thok interacting with momentum physics, it reminds me of the air dash in Sonic Megamix which was just as fun to spam there so I don't see how it'd undermine the physics just cause you "didn't earn your speed".
I agree with your points on why the Thok is good and why it matters to SRB2, and comparisons to Kirby Air Ride are pretty good, but I don't agree with the whole options approach. I think games are better when designed around a moveset and force the player to master it, and most fangames that offer moveset options usually end up messy, and same applies to even official games, at least partially, so I can see why, if there's a focus on a new ability, the stages are designed specifically with it in mind, even if the ability itself isn''t as good as the Thok. I am not particularly knowledgeable about SRB2 though
Kirby is an excelente example. Because, in normal kirby games, New players Will Just spam attack Button or try to Discover New combos with the abilities. But, experienced players Will Know the combos and use It the best way. And thok is a perfect ability, because in SRB2, the first time I played, I Was going Very slow, with caution, without using thok, and even tried playing with tails and knuckles, so I have an Ability, but on my Second runs, I Was blasting trough levels with the thok, and making drop dash complex? No, keep the thok.
honestly, if they don't want an option on if Sonic uses the thok or not, I don't see why they couldn't give a new character the exact same ability while changing Sonics kit, since one of their main points of contention with the thok being unwieldy was that new players will automatically gravitate towards playing Sonic no matter what
Sonic fans, when it comes ro fangames at least, are incapable of proper criticism or thought. Theyd be more than eager to analyse, assess and critique anything coming from SEGA, but I swear with fangames people suddenly want to avoid "needless discussion" like what
If I can airdash, and damage enemies while in the air. I will be fine, as long as I can still do things like badnik bounce and stuff. I remember seeing a gif though of some twirl ability, I am afraid because Sonic is not in the spin state doing the airdash or thok
id be interested in the new physics along with the thok. they can tweak the thok, like how some modded characters give the thok a shorter distance in exchange for height, i literally dont care as long as we have something that is the thok or similar to it
I think the thok is bad but it can be good For me just giving it more power with speed like x momentum and it removing all vertical momentum so it can help you with jumps
as a game designer, the thing ive always heard over and over was that simple mechanics with a lot of depths are exactly what you would want to go for when making a game, so it was pretty odd to see someone claim that simple design like that "insults the players intelligence". feels like its nothing more than an excuse and really makes them lose credibility its kind of unfortunate to see how the game is being treated by its devs, after playing 2.2 i thought the future of the game would be tying up all the loose ends, finishing all the zones etc as what was present in 2.2 was already extremely polished and felt pretty complete, if they keep reinventing the wheel then this game will never get anywhere
A slight problem I have with making Sonic fully customizable is that I enjoy playing games as close to the intended experience as possible unless I'm fooling around with mods. Heck, a problem I have with the badge system in Mario Wonder is that there's not a lot of good incentives to use them, the badges that make the game easier make it way too easy and some of the badges that make the levels harder aren't compatible with every level. Personally I'd hate to see the thok go and honestly thought it was a pretty cool movement option with a lot of depth. Though it's also a very complex topic because even without physic changes, changing the level design is a huge factor in how broken or frustrating the thok can be for different players. Even adjusting the camera has huge effects in how hard the platforming can be or can even make you motion sick and figuring out what camera is right for you (especially if you're a controller scrub like me) can be more difficult than the thok itself. Ultimately we're all coming from a place of ignorance. For all we know, the devs could do something that sounds completely moronic on paper but ends up becoming really fun because the physics, mechanics and level design all work perfectly together.
You know, I've been watching a dude make a recreation of the retro engine physics and maybe if the feel of the movement is good they should just not give sonic a ability. So it's like the classics!
1:19 yeah that guy doesn't know how simple Kirby Air Ride is in comparison to, say, NFS Hot Pursuit 2010 First off, in Hot Pursuit, the player can be both a cop and a racer, as for controls, you have the throttle, wich obviously accelerates the car, brake, wich drifts with a gradual increase in angle, the handbrake, wich drifts in a bigger angle right away, the nitrous, wich increases the speed (also gradually), and the several items. Turbo, giving a massive (and i do mean massive) boost to racers only. Helicopter, calling an aerial pursuit unit to help with cops only. Spike Strip, wich launches well... a spike strip in the back of the car and can be used by both cop and racer. And EMP, wich launches (obviously) an EMP in the direction of a targeted player Does not sound "simple" to you, does it?
I think another problem with your original Thok vid was that you came of as incredibly hostile. Your tone of voice was quite angered, and a lot of your points felt attacky As someone else who struggles with their tone, I find that people don't want to listen to you if you sound like you're about to flip a table. The more measured approach you took in this video will probably get your point across better.
new sonic team jr already doesn’t care what old fans like you and I, pal. They already switched their target audience and it’s to TH-camrs that will pick it up once and never again, and little kids of course!
Oh boy, ive seen this like 400 times, sonic team jr is fucking up the way many fuck up, especially in fandom games , the reddit power trap i call it, ive seen it happen before, with the biggest terraria mod, like word for word this is exactly what drove me and many away from calamity mod, its so srb2over...
outsider and haven't even touched the game so like. don't take this seriously lol. but if they want sonic to be the beginner character, why not just... make a new character altogether that aims to reproduce how sonic used to play pre-2.3, if an option for selecting movesets isn't viable. that way, sonic could be selected as the beginner option while the old style of sonic would be relegated to another character, seeing as sonic is currently too difficult. also, arguably the thok's depth comes from the fact that you move really fast with it. it isn't how you execute it, but when and where. the complexity is emergent.
Im personally just worried about how this might affect new people who try to get into srb2. Tbh Ive realised that I dont feel too strongly about the thok. I just hope they dont change or nerf Amy Knuckles or Tails
You know, you saying that nu-stjr won't add control options to srb2 made me realize something: "if they won't do it and don't like it, then why can you change the keys you use to control your character on your keyboard when it's basically the same thing?"
Although I'm in favor of keeping the Thok for many of the reasons everyone else has explained, adding a moveset toggle wouldn't be ideal. Typically I would agree, but in SRB2's case it has to design the level design around these secondary abilities, and depending on what they do for the new move, the thok might still be incompatible unless they dumb down the level design for Sonic specifically. Although one section of the level might work great with whatever new ability he gets, the thok probably won't work in that situation, which means that level design has to be modified to be completable with both movesets. While that doesn't sound like a big deal, that would be immensely creatively limiting for level design going forward, since it has to be natural and a "thok route" can't just be hamfisted in.
Yes. Amy and Fang have deliberate routes tailored to them. Adding an option would mean you'd need two separate routes for Sonic, but the routes for Sonic need to be obvious since he's the main character.@@gamecubeking
SRB2 already has to design its levels around multiple playable characters and their unique abilities, I can't think of the thok breaking anything that Tails or Knuckles wouldn't be able to do with their flight or glide.
@@braven_iss You're saying this like Thok *needs* routes specifically built around it and isn't just in general a versatile tool that will work as long as the level design isn't antithetical to it. Which, as long as levels don't get super vertical, shouldn't be an issue.
What I'm saying is that depending on what the new ability could be, they will design Sonic's routes through levels around that. Trying to design a Sonic-specific route around two movesets would be very limiting BECAUSE you would have to make sure both movesets could get through it, and we still don't know what Sonic's new ability will be.@@evdestroy5304
7:36 HOW IS THIS NOT OVBIOUS TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS THE CHANGE? I've tried to fight for the thok before, but I kept getting "but the new players are suffering!!1!" and "it's way too bland" and "its too hard to navigate". Do they not realize that people who like the thok are NOT gonna support 2.3 and it's changes? I actually don't mind the Sonic momentum in the vid that was gonna be 2.3's physics, as mod chars could keep up with someone like Metal or Sonic. Considering that you said the thok didn't feel out of place is grea- oh what? They abandoned it? Oh. You should have to sink time into SRB2 and the thok if you want to use the thok skillfully, just like the Roll, the Instashield, and Dropdash. I got countered with "thats just skill issue" NO, its actually playing the game.
Personally, I think adding an "option" for the ability is a terrible idea. It would just add too many complications, especially as far as multiplayer goes for the 2 people out there who can put up with the godawful netcode. Adding a new character and giving THEM the thok feels like a cleaner solution.
Glaber I appreciate what you've done with your own pieces of modding but I gotta hard disagree with this take right here. In relation to my own comment on here as well as long story short, rebound dash has a lot of nuiances that ultimately make it less than ideal for a thok replacement as well as it overlapping hard with Knuckles. If you want a list that defeats the purpose of this being brief then rebound dash: - Has a specific spin state to it that's not beginner friendly - Specific spin state is itself specific to what part of rebound you hit - Second attempt at rebound leaves you vulnerable - None of base SRB2 or other physic mods have the same speed retention as MRCE's version - This ultimately means it's slower than the thok - Walls and enemies arguably become more of a curse than a blessing due to some of these specifics - Overlaps hard with Knuckles and possibly makes playing him redundant due to how Knuckles' gimped jump and unclimbable walls balances him Only replacement that's on the MB or any mod in particular that's a worthy replacement for the thok is literally called "New Thok" which whilst it has its own context sensitivities, it's ultimately just taking the thok and doing something of its own that doesn't over complicate movement. The big things it adds being air hang time and refreshing on bounce/hit.
@@GrayvyFellow the big problem with trying to replace the thok at all is it's been around for so long that replacing it now is going to be near impossible.
this may be a hot take but why don't they just put a double jump on the jump button and the thok on the spin dash button? i know thats very modern sonic but i don't think it'd be that out of place.
Just here to say ANOTHER reason we shouldn't just be told to mod the thok back in, is because you'll obviously lose unlocks due to addons, which would obviously spoil... having the thok and Just wanting to play the game with it.
the thing about "being hard and easy at the same time" is simply because thok has a low skill floor yet a immense skill ceiling, literally "easy to use, hard to master", don't know how y'all are debating this game without knowing this simple principle
your points were a lot better this time, and you seem to have (slightly) toned down the aggression which got a bit out of line a few times in the original video. i agree the thok should be kept, it's fun and satisfying, and the argument against even having it as an option is really unconvincing. i'm sure i'm not the first person to think of this, but if they want a more new player-friendly alternative to the thok, why not just give it to sonic & tails, and leave solo sonic the way he is? sonic & tails is already designed to be the easier version of sonic anyways. maybe the new move could even involve tails in some way.
I'm decent with the thok, but I still dislike it for how it trivializes getting to top speed. Being able to reach top speed instantly only by tapping the same button twice makes the spin dash redundant, and it probably wouldn't work well with the more momentum focused direction they're taking the game. I get why people like it regardless, so I don't think anyone's necessarily wrong for thinking they should keep it, especially considering your New Coke comparison, but I don't think there's no good reason to remove it either. Though I do fully believe they need to find a compromise. It'd be incredibly stubborn to ignore what most of their community is saying. Maybe just making the thok itself more momentum based? Like if you do it from a standstill, it's basically just the air dash from Sonic Adventure, but if you do it while running at top-speed, it's as potent as it ever was.
You also forgot to mention the drop dash is already in a 3D sonic (sonic frontiers) and before you tell me they are different games with different formulas I just wanna say that srb2’s levels are usually pretty open
![[Part 1] ทารกน้อยถูกทิ้ง👶 หญิงชราเก็บขวดขายเลี้ยงดูเขาจนโต #โลกการละคร](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nPTDvFCExks/mqdefault.jpg)
Sonic Mania let you choose between the Drop Dash, the Instashield, and the Peelout, so there's official precedence for an ability toggle as well.
that was technically a secret/unlockable, but I am warming up to the idea of a character "variations" system rather than those sorts of things being entirely separate skins
I wish a Sonic game would just let me use all three.
Jump and tap for an instashield. Hold to turn it into a dropdash. Hold up and jump from the ground to peelout. There's no conflict there, and mods have proven how fun it is to play like that.
@@thomashatch3673 There's a cheat for that in Mania and also 3K in Origins iIrc
that's called max control abd it's a thing in both mania and srb2
@@greenhillnerdnew8148 max control isn't an official thing in either game but yeah it's cool
it's funny that STJ are opposed to the idea of a Sonic with two selectable abilties when most players probably have 10 different Sonic mods each with a different moveset
and there are already addons that can entirely mix up vanilla sonic's moveset anyway
like rebound dash and paper peelout
as a modded version player i can confirm this is not just true but expected as soon as you open that add-ons folder
facts@@localshape
As a modded player I support this, having Sonic, Team Sonic, Neo Sonic, Shadow, Tyson Hess Sonic, and the wherehog all provide completely different experiences
Even Mania & various rom hacks allow you to switch between options.
LONG LIVE THE THOK. As someone who played SRB2 in 2007 or so, I think seeing someone who has mastered the thok on netplay made me associate that with being good at SRB2. And it has only gotten more interesting and fun to use over time as levels have adapted to go with it, and mods like XMomentum have come out in case you get bored of the current vanilla gameplay.
But just watch the "community" refuse to entertain the concept of actual debate, because having constructive conversations about the gameplay of the game is a no-no.
"community"? Nah more like the higher-ups doing whatever they want.
@@BanjoIC too real. the devs really dont seem to enjoy listening to players who dont agree with what they want to do
@@spimbles That's because those devs are mostly from content creator close circles themselves, and these close circles... have very strong opinions on what SRB2 should be like.
The gameplay sucked already. So give change a try.
@@spimbles
BECAUSE IT'S THEIR F****** GAME...
I just want them to finish the rest of levels instead of suddenly trying to overhaul mechanics that have been in the game for years
at this rate we'll never get Dark City Zone
frrrr lazy af cant even finish making all levels in 25 years
that's the new team for ya, worrying more about "ALROGHT GOOYS, HOW DO WI COMPWEYLY ROUIN A CHOROTER TOODEY?!" rather than simply building the game and making it full and NOT "fix" stuff for their..strange taste.
Sonic Team JR have to start getting better with taking feedback and actual communication, literally the reason for like 90% of the debate in the first place. This game for the longest time was pretty much run by the community (it is a fangame, after all, not to mention the mods), so seeing them keep everything behind closed doors and leaving some table scraps every blue moon is strange, to say the least.
Honestly, if there's one character they gotta tweak the move-set for, it has to be Fang. I like his double jump but I don't like the weight it gives you and the shooting mechanic is very finicky to get a hold of and for some reason you have to be standing still.
I think Fang should be allowed to shoot while moving, but his bullets would be slower (vanilla srb2) and less accurate. While not moving his bullets are faster and more likely to hit the target. This way his bullet game play would have depth because you could bet on his moving fire hitting or stop to get a precise shot.
That's not a bad idea, I never thought of that. It just makes sense
This reminds me of the combat update for Minecraft for some reason. There was a huge divide, and no commands that allows you to use the old attack system
And yet a majority of the community accepted it...kids never learn
@@BomberBlur07yeah the 1.9 java combat is way better lol
"grrrr... i cant spam click my way through any combat encounter anymore i have to be STRATEGIC and use DIFFERENT WEAPONS grrr........."
This is what my mind immediately jumped to as well. The anger was real.
You know what I just realized? The thok is just the fire shield power up minus the fire.
And It haves an better boost
SRB2 removing the Thok is like Modern Sonic without the Homing Attack it would remove the entire thing they're known for besides the obvious.
I really think they should just map the new ability to the spin button when aerial. Removing features is always something that will be testy with your audience even more so when it's part of your games identity like the THOK.
So I highly doubt anyone would care if you just gave sonic more movement, espically if it was dropdash/wallcharge it would feel the most natural there anyway. The nu-devs in general seem to make very perplexing decisions when the community is concerned.
Other thing I'll say is I don't think the Sonic Frontiers example is the best comparison as it does somewhat prove the point of why too many options is bad. With certain momentum settings in that game the final horizons challenges are not possible to do. Though coversely this does show why "lol just mod in old momentum" is a very poor argument, however.
Yeah, it seems like a positive on the surface but I feel like the customizable controls in Frontiers (base game) just made it so they couldn't really design any platforming challenges that didn't involve a lot of dash pad and spring use since it'd mean they would have to account for different slider settings. The update pretty much threw all of that out in favor of a more manual play style and you got a lot of people saying the games controls don't work for the level of challenge when I think they were really designed around the games control with everything (particularly jump deceleration and ground acceleration) set at max or at least close to that.
0:36 EW, DONT COMPARE ME WITH THEM
jokes aside, i am actually with keeping a thok and I agreed with a lot of the points in your old video, I just think that instead of replacing the thok with a homing attack, they should keep the thok, implement the new sonic ability and let it be a configurable option. I feel this would make everyone happy, since those who are with keeping the thok get to have the thok, and those against keeping the thok can use whatever new goofy ability nu-srb2jr is going to give him.
Personally, I think core player abilities and movement physics should be done and locked in after 25 years of development.
I wish they brought back the different speeds for all the characters. Maybe the "characters are too fast" issue wouldnt be so problematic then.
honestly I don't think it was ever about speed. more like the acceleration is jank
That's pretty much what Amy is for right?
@@thomashatch3673 Thats what you'd expect, until you realize every character in 2.2 is just as fast as Sonic.
@@donkeycheese8098 wait really?
@@r.u.s.e3586yeah
As a new player, the Thok is not that hard to use, but that’s probably because I’ve played a sonic game with an airdash ability before
Im ngl an argument for mechanics being too simple is crazy.
As an avid difficult game enjoyer, I have learned:
The more simple the mechanics the further the skill level could be stretched.
The argument of a simple mechanic being too simple or too hard is crazy because its both.
Its EASY to pick up and HARD to master. Thats what makes simple mechanics FUN.
For those who want to add verticality to sonic's moveset, I recommend the Climbdash addon. It gives the abilities of the dropdash if you haven't used the thok yet in the air plus an upward boost against a wall. There is also Climbdash+, but I use the regular version since CD+ letting you spam the upward boost against one wall makes it pretty broken. I plan on making my own version of the CD that works to my liking.
As someone who recently started playing SRB2 (or at least, got more into it recently)... I don't see what they mean when they say the thok is too hard or unforgiving for newcomers?
Like, yeah i definetly do overshoot and get hit or die because of it, but that's my fault and all that tells me is "I need to learn how to handle it", not "Let's never use that" (And to an extent, i did kinda learn to use it. I still fuck up sometimes, but i can still manage it).
Now sure, i might be an outlier since i also play Megaman and that series is basically known to kick your teeth in until you learn how to properly play, but i feel like most of the newcomers that ARE gonna be interested enough in SRB2 to get invested in it and stick around aren't gonna be dumb enough to just completely avoid a move because they can't control it at first.
The thok not working with momentum sounds like complete bullshit to me. There are multiple examples of Sonic games with momentum that have air dashes similar to the thok. It definitely sounds like the devs trying to make an excuse to justify replacing the thok, rather than it being a legit issue.
I agreed with the first video, but this one brings up better and more sound points that really show you know what you’re talking about!
Said this on one of your previous videos before, but I feel like stating it again; My opinion on what Sonic's ability should be in the future is somewhere in the middle, I want a thok that is objectively better, being slightly based off momentum rather than being a set speed no matter what, which can result in slowing you down if you are too fast and accelerating somewhat too quickly from a standstill. The new momentum build you brought up seems really cool, basically the same movement you know and love but better. Having the idea to pick multiple versions of the same character would actually be pretty cool, such as vanilla Sonic having multiple options such as the a new ability, the thok, and possibly remakes of some other Sonic movesets new and old. It wouldn't just be good for the vanilla game and character variety, but can also help modding; instead of having to make a different Sonic or multiple variations of your custom character an entirely separate skin, it could be a new variant! On a similar note, I have recently thought of the idea that they should move most of the major changes nu-STJr is making to a hypothetical SRB3. It would be pretty cool to "finish" SRB2 with a smaller scope, and bring the ambition and innovation to a proper sequel instead of changing the original game into something that it isn't. They could push out smaller major updates at a more frequent pace, eventually making the vanilla roster of levels complete and having a good holster of bonus content and unlockables, as well as continuing to maintain modern technical standards while still staying true to the original game and its vision. If this were to happen in real life they wouldn't even have to scrap the 2.3-designed levels if they had a "remake" of SRB2 (even if that be a relatively basic set of levels) within SRB3!
I fail to understand what kind of momentum system makes a simple air dash incompatible.
Honestly? yeah. SRB2 wouldnt feel the same without the thok, and atleast if they do get rid of it, they should make it a toggleable option to have it or not have it with a new moveset.
Somewhat like how in the rereleases in the classic games and in mania, you can toggle sonic's moveset to be either 1, 2 or CD or 3*
Always disappointing to see people who want to shut down conversations just because they're personally tired of them. People who tell people to shut up on the internet should take their own advice. If it really pains you that much to see a conversation take place just close the tab, do something else, turn off your computer and go outside, nobody is holding you hostage.
For me, just keep the THOK while adding some kind of vertical movement for Sonic (the spindash on wall could work well, or maybe give the THOK a lil' bit of verticality if it gets to hit a wall)
I am not the best at the game, but playing with Sonic is fun, but also kinda unfair and a difficulty spike, I do believe the devs reasoning of people choosing Sonic instead of any other character first, but then leaving the game because Eggman Castle is way to hard is pretty much true
The easiest way to fix it WITHOUT changing every single platform in the game, is just verticality (would also help mod stages)
I've been playing srb2 for as long as I had a computer. I would'int mind something new for sonic than what I always considered to be a watered down homing attack.
Honestly, yeah, I agree with the more opitions solution. The fact that new sonic.jr are this stubborn to adding more opitions is quite concerning
Also, I think they're gonna change amy's abilities, at least according to a video that was posted on the official srb2 discord. Any thoughts on that?
if they did the superstars one would be the best imo
Why would they change Amy's abilities? SRB2 Amy is one of the best versions of her. They're not going to make her a generic Sonic clone like the modern games do are they?
@@thomashatch3673 her Moveset is too slow. Worse than adventure.
@@MJGaming57_REAL She's fast enough, and not slower than Adventure. I suppose adding a few more moves from Advance wouldn't hurt, though.
@@thomashatch3673They're basically restoring the abilities she had back during 2.1, before she was officially added into the game, as she was originally a modded character.
Can't imagine this game without it. It's really fun to use the thok, especially for getting height or distance.
nu st.jr just doesnt have the same creative vision the old team had. this means they dont know why the old mechanics were there, they dont know the rationale behind those choices, and so they are going to make changes that conflict with the original vision. This is why most people take complete creative control, but for a fan game thats this old, the new crowd was eventually going to push the old one out.
i said this once and will say it again
rework the thok to work with the new physics and have it as a "jump-jump" ability and the breakfast sandwich be the "jump-dash" ability which gives the thok new life while also allowing you to do whatever the new control set does if you want to get more technical
as a modded version player i have seen people make similar move sets that actually work without it being too complicated
the better solution is to make the thok like the momentum thok from Xmomentum where it speeds up as you do way better to use with momentum but not really replacing it just updating it to work with the new physics and plus most people use x momentum so many people will like this change
So kinda like how the Slide Dash from my first character mod is affected by the current speed of the character. I like it, makes the rest of SRB2 Sonic's kit like the Spindash more important too.
As someone who started playing robo blast 2 not even a month ago the thok was honestly easy to figure out how to use
"bro compared srb2 to a racing game😭"
bro really doesn't know what an example is 💀
Why does everyone just say either "remove the thok" or "keep the thok", and not just tweak or rebalance it?
No one will probably listen to this but oh well heres my take.
First one some considerations:
a) Obviously you have to make it appeal to both new and old players. I don't think players will straight up quit over the thok being changed, for example SparkTEJ3 phased out the jester powers almost completely, but it wasn't a major concern point to many people because of how good the game was.
b) You have to remember that if given options, most people will choose whichever is the most powerful or fun. Like, i don't think anyone plays Frontiers without turning jump deceleration off because turning it off makes the game objectively better. Most P-06 players use the legacy jump dash since it preserves momentum better. And I don't think anyone playing mania plays with anything other than the drop dash. So the mindset of making a single option that's just really good makes sense.
So before changing the thok you gotta look at the issues with it, but also what makes it good so you don't mess that up.
Pros:
- It's just fun to thok around.
- Helps you clear larger gaps.
- Gives the game a consistent high speed pace when playing as sonic.
Cons:
- Has a skill wall, but is an overpowered ability when you get the grasp for it. So it's a unique case where it falls into both too hard and too easy.
- Game and level design often encourages spamming it, since this is an instant (over) top speed ability.
- Makes losing speed as sonic non-punishing apart from lost 2 seconds from getting hit itself.
- Kinda nullifies the purpose of the spin dash for sonic, other than clearing massive gaps where you absolutely NEED the extra speed.
In conclusion? It's basically an instant top speed ability. It helps to keep a consistent fast pace of the game but at the same time flattens the level design out and makes it difficult to design around other characters.
Now let's get to my proposed rework!
First off let's go over momentum changes this is designed around, because this is important:
- You no longer slow down while on the ground
- Slopes now give you speed
(why isn't this a thing already)
- The thok can be used in any direction, still based on the camera rotation. (why isnt this a thing already its such a no brainer)
- Using it gives you a very slight burst of speed. (ground acceleration would be faster than spamming the thok)
- You cannot go over the ground speed cap with the thok, but the following still apply.
- Your momentum is fully redirected in the direction you use it in.
- VERTICAL momentum is fully cancelled when you use it.
That's basically it, so, on paper:
- There is no longer an advantage to spamming it, you gotta use the level design and spin dash to go fast (that's why the earlier momentum changes were important)
- Much more viable at low speed platforming sections.
- Momentum redirection can let you keep a consistent pace during the level but requires higher skill as you need to get the speed another way.
- Still lets you clear large gaps with vertical momentum cancelling, and also help you with platforming section (you know how celeste reduces your gravity when you're at the peak of your jump, this sorta simulates that)
With this rework proposal i tried to keep the pros and fix the cons I outlined, It would require the momentum changes from earlier to fully thrive but overall i think this is a good middle ground.
And remember, I'm not trying to say this is the objectively better option, just throwing an idea.
jesus christ this took me like 2 hours to write and it probably wont be worth it lmao.
@@ettiSurrealI saw it, and I thought it was a pretty nice way to improve the thok
Not even I have the attention span to read through all of that.
Your work is appreciated still.
i wish both abilitys where there the breakfeast snadwich would be jump and spin and thok would be the same and the breakfast sandwich would be a no shield move
reinventing the wheel like it's the ship of theseus
thok debate 2: electric boogaloo
wait, there’s debate around the thok in the first place? why?
**watches video**
oh. yeah no now i can see why. yeah no it is pretty odd for the dev team to do this. i just think i’m in a weird position as someone who’s been on and off with srb2 for years that i kinda don’t care that much. but i can still see how it’s a bit strange for a dev team, especially for a fangame, to be so resistant to feedback. makes it sound like something you hear on a poorly manage indie game or smth
just binged basically all your srb2 videos surrounding the community and nu-stjr
personally, i think its nigh time nu-stjr gets the boot
the community needs to get their shit together too imo
If it ain’t broken don’t fix it I think. SRB2 always been a game about its community and collaborators, it’s a shame NuSTJ seems so resistant to change and the community’s voice
You say that like there’s no problems with the thok at all
@@SpaceBlank Because there really aren't. It serves it's purpose fine enough and people complaining about it is a skill issue tbh.
When I began I thought the thok was hard to control but the more I progressed the more I learnt to love it
A point that I think could've been elaborated more so on the topic of how Superstars went about a new ability is in how it lead to the discussion of how Trip ends up making Knuckles and Amy redundant in terms of how their abilities work. A lot of the "solutions" I've seen pushed for whatever ability should replace the thok weirdly take a strange opposite to the conversation where there's a complete disregard for the other characters in the roster.
Things like the breakfast sandwich and rebound dash (aside from all the astericks of context senseitivities to them) come at a complete disregard to what unique things the other playable characters have, the biggest elephant that should come up with these suggestions also is Knuckles in terms of how they relate to scaling and breaking unique walls.With how Knuckles is typically seen as a character who has unique routes to his own a lot of these thok replacements just completely disregard this angle of the conversation.
A counter point I believe some people may raise is "there are modded characters that barely have any differences also". SRB2 for as mod friendly as it is, should not have to rely on mods to make the ideal play experience for others. If anything it may deteur people from making mods if you get too relient on this aspect, as a lot of what is made for SRB2 is primarily held on its foundation. Best example I can think of with that would be Duke Nukem Forever as that game at launch came with all kinds of modding tools but no one used them because the base game was just that bad of an experience.
Ultimately if they're wanting to overhaul a character that badly then why not Amy and/or Fang? They're both relatively recent in terms of SRB2's life and have a fair amount of people already detracting from them in especially how they play. It's more worth it to just smooth out their experience then focus on a legacy character.
Besides as a pro-thoker I've taken to the idea of the ability as Sonic becoming a bullet. Being a game traditionally played in a 3rd person style with keyboard and mouse, that's perfection in simplicity. Any changes made should probably have that mindset taken into account imo.
6:07 hi sandwichface that's me right there yes sir that is me hello
i made whatever point it was i made back in may and i don't even know if i still stand with it or not
that being said i'm pro-thok
honestly if there ever really is a need to introduce some depth to thok, they can just merge it with jump-thok and make it sensitive to a jump-tap or a jump-hold so it doesn't ride into pressing spin while jumping (which while technically available, i feel like sonic of all characters should only be able to utilize it for shields and not have an ability that can get cut off by shields). tap the button for a purely horizontal speed burst like what we have today, hold it to jumpthok instead and trade some of that speed for height, then build levels in a way that compliments both variations. add a little bit of depth to it, keep the thok fundamentally the same, cut down on that weirdly large number of custom unused abilities baked into the game for whatever reason! win-win all around
God forbid if a game has a high skill ceiling
If they really want to bring in a new ability, then it should go on a new character. If the Thok doesn't work with the new physics, then they need to slightly rework it. The Thok is, to me, synonymous with SRB2, even though I used to hate it when I wasn't used to it, it's what made SRB2 fun for me.
Also the Breakfast Sandwich is almost exactly like Trip's ability, so if they wanted to increase the roster size while implementing an interesting ability, they should use her instead of fixing what doesn't need to be fixed.
They should do something similar to what xmomentum did.
Welp, I'll just stick with the current 2.2 version. Sadly new mods or current ones will be made and updated with 2.3 in mind.
this video is much better than the last one
In regards to what you said about the thok replacement alienating a good brunt of the SRB2 community and making them stick to 2.2, I wouldn't be surprised if, should that happen, that people mod in their own versions of Dark City Zone and whatever remaining levels to fit 2.2 if/when those levels release.
i just dont think srb2 is srb2 if you kill the thok. to me, srb2's identity could be divided into two halves: the thok, and SSN's art.
SSN's art being replaced is understandable given he cant work on the project for the rest of his life. it had to happen at some point.
but the thok has no reason to go. it is the heart and soul of SRB2's gameplay. i say this as someone who has never been very good at thokking unless im playing wasd+mouse.
It's just a worse airdash. There's nothing unique bout it other than the cute name and cool history. It's honestly makes it feel pointless to play sonic since everyone either has their own nieche or is just better. Well except fang I guess.
@@JuneCole29so why was it around for almost 25 years? clearly, if it's a "worse airdash", then they probably would have removed it long ago, and that's basically what makes Sonic unique for all the other characters
@@Zayd-u4k It doesn't make him unique so much as it makes him kinda unfun and boring. I will admit that my comment was written in spite and anger and this not exactly well argued. Also legacy does not always equate to quality. Honestly I just think they should just do the rebound dash and just rename it to the rebound thok since that's about what the ability already was and in spirit the thok lives on I suppose.
LONG LIVE THE THOK It may be at first hard but you get to master in the later levels so yeah
Re-iterating the comment I left on the last video.
The thok is cool.
And the new ability is cool too, though it feels like it belongs in a modded character.
Just fork development into two versions. "Classic" and "Modern" or something
i don't even play srb2 nor discuss about it and yet this video kept me captivated regardless
"If most srb2 players like the current physics" The amount of custom maps I play with level design that screams it was made with momentum mods in mind suggest otherwise to me. lol
I really can't wait for an update to standardize full momentum physics already cause being a stickler for playing as vanilla as possible its annoying playing a custom map that goes ham on all the slopes you have to take 5 seconds to spindash up if you don't use a physics mod.
Oh right, this is a thok video. I think I said a bunch of dumb things last time that I'll just disregard.
Regarding thok interacting with momentum physics, it reminds me of the air dash in Sonic Megamix which was just as fun to spam there so I don't see how it'd undermine the physics just cause you "didn't earn your speed".
I agree with your points on why the Thok is good and why it matters to SRB2, and comparisons to Kirby Air Ride are pretty good, but I don't agree with the whole options approach. I think games are better when designed around a moveset and force the player to master it, and most fangames that offer moveset options usually end up messy, and same applies to even official games, at least partially, so I can see why, if there's a focus on a new ability, the stages are designed specifically with it in mind, even if the ability itself isn''t as good as the Thok.
I am not particularly knowledgeable about SRB2 though
Kirby is an excelente example. Because, in normal kirby games, New players Will Just spam attack Button or try to Discover New combos with the abilities. But, experienced players Will Know the combos and use It the best way. And thok is a perfect ability, because in SRB2, the first time I played, I Was going Very slow, with caution, without using thok, and even tried playing with tails and knuckles, so I have an Ability, but on my Second runs, I Was blasting trough levels with the thok, and making drop dash complex? No, keep the thok.
The Thok is a part of SRB2 but the momentum probably should change
honestly, if they don't want an option on if Sonic uses the thok or not, I don't see why they couldn't give a new character the exact same ability while changing Sonics kit, since one of their main points of contention with the thok being unwieldy was that new players will automatically gravitate towards playing Sonic no matter what
Sonic fans, when it comes ro fangames at least, are incapable of proper criticism or thought. Theyd be more than eager to analyse, assess and critique anything coming from SEGA, but I swear with fangames people suddenly want to avoid "needless discussion" like what
10:11 I agree so much about that point.
If I can airdash, and damage enemies while in the air. I will be fine, as long as I can still do things like badnik bounce and stuff. I remember seeing a gif though of some twirl ability, I am afraid because Sonic is not in the spin state doing the airdash or thok
id be interested in the new physics along with the thok. they can tweak the thok, like how some modded characters give the thok a shorter distance in exchange for height, i literally dont care as long as we have something that is the thok or similar to it
I think the thok is bad but it can be good
For me just giving it more power with speed like x momentum and it removing all vertical momentum so it can help you with jumps
as a game designer, the thing ive always heard over and over was that simple mechanics with a lot of depths are exactly what you would want to go for when making a game, so it was pretty odd to see someone claim that simple design like that "insults the players intelligence". feels like its nothing more than an excuse and really makes them lose credibility
its kind of unfortunate to see how the game is being treated by its devs, after playing 2.2 i thought the future of the game would be tying up all the loose ends, finishing all the zones etc as what was present in 2.2 was already extremely polished and felt pretty complete, if they keep reinventing the wheel then this game will never get anywhere
A slight problem I have with making Sonic fully customizable is that I enjoy playing games as close to the intended experience as possible unless I'm fooling around with mods. Heck, a problem I have with the badge system in Mario Wonder is that there's not a lot of good incentives to use them, the badges that make the game easier make it way too easy and some of the badges that make the levels harder aren't compatible with every level.
Personally I'd hate to see the thok go and honestly thought it was a pretty cool movement option with a lot of depth. Though it's also a very complex topic because even without physic changes, changing the level design is a huge factor in how broken or frustrating the thok can be for different players. Even adjusting the camera has huge effects in how hard the platforming can be or can even make you motion sick and figuring out what camera is right for you (especially if you're a controller scrub like me) can be more difficult than the thok itself.
Ultimately we're all coming from a place of ignorance. For all we know, the devs could do something that sounds completely moronic on paper but ends up becoming really fun because the physics, mechanics and level design all work perfectly together.
You know, I've been watching a dude make a recreation of the retro engine physics and maybe if the feel of the movement is good they should just not give sonic a ability. So it's like the classics!
1:19 yeah that guy doesn't know how simple Kirby Air Ride is in comparison to, say, NFS Hot Pursuit 2010
First off, in Hot Pursuit, the player can be both a cop and a racer, as for controls, you have the throttle, wich obviously accelerates the car, brake, wich drifts with a gradual increase in angle, the handbrake, wich drifts in a bigger angle right away, the nitrous, wich increases the speed (also gradually), and the several items. Turbo, giving a massive (and i do mean massive) boost to racers only. Helicopter, calling an aerial pursuit unit to help with cops only. Spike Strip, wich launches well... a spike strip in the back of the car and can be used by both cop and racer. And EMP, wich launches (obviously) an EMP in the direction of a targeted player
Does not sound "simple" to you, does it?
I think another problem with your original Thok vid was that you came of as incredibly hostile. Your tone of voice was quite angered, and a lot of your points felt attacky
As someone else who struggles with their tone, I find that people don't want to listen to you if you sound like you're about to flip a table. The more measured approach you took in this video will probably get your point across better.
new sonic team jr already doesn’t care what old fans like you and I, pal. They already switched their target audience and it’s to TH-camrs that will pick it up once and never again, and little kids of course!
Can we just get homing attack instead lol
Oh boy, ive seen this like 400 times, sonic team jr is fucking up the way many fuck up, especially in fandom games , the reddit power trap i call it, ive seen it happen before, with the biggest terraria mod, like word for word this is exactly what drove me and many away from calamity mod, its so srb2over...
outsider and haven't even touched the game so like. don't take this seriously lol. but if they want sonic to be the beginner character, why not just... make a new character altogether that aims to reproduce how sonic used to play pre-2.3, if an option for selecting movesets isn't viable. that way, sonic could be selected as the beginner option while the old style of sonic would be relegated to another character, seeing as sonic is currently too difficult.
also, arguably the thok's depth comes from the fact that you move really fast with it. it isn't how you execute it, but when and where. the complexity is emergent.
Ayyyyyy. I see one of my discord pals comments here in the video.
Im personally just worried about how this might affect new people who try to get into srb2. Tbh Ive realised that I dont feel too strongly about the thok. I just hope they dont change or nerf Amy Knuckles or Tails
You know, you saying that nu-stjr won't add control options to srb2 made me realize something:
"if they won't do it and don't like it, then why can you change the keys you use to control your character on your keyboard when it's basically the same thing?"
10:01 wich i used to try and make speed rewarding. By putting both initial speed and initial boost speed in absolute 0
W vid as always my man
the preserves build was closed due to coding issues with player scale.
no argument.
no fucks given.
basic excuse.
@@americaonline3835facts, that sounds like something Yandere Dev would say
Although I'm in favor of keeping the Thok for many of the reasons everyone else has explained, adding a moveset toggle wouldn't be ideal. Typically I would agree, but in SRB2's case it has to design the level design around these secondary abilities, and depending on what they do for the new move, the thok might still be incompatible unless they dumb down the level design for Sonic specifically.
Although one section of the level might work great with whatever new ability he gets, the thok probably won't work in that situation, which means that level design has to be modified to be completable with both movesets. While that doesn't sound like a big deal, that would be immensely creatively limiting for level design going forward, since it has to be natural and a "thok route" can't just be hamfisted in.
Is it really any different than Amy and Fang routes needing to be added in…?
Yes. Amy and Fang have deliberate routes tailored to them. Adding an option would mean you'd need two separate routes for Sonic, but the routes for Sonic need to be obvious since he's the main character.@@gamecubeking
SRB2 already has to design its levels around multiple playable characters and their unique abilities, I can't think of the thok breaking anything that Tails or Knuckles wouldn't be able to do with their flight or glide.
@@braven_iss You're saying this like Thok *needs* routes specifically built around it and isn't just in general a versatile tool that will work as long as the level design isn't antithetical to it.
Which, as long as levels don't get super vertical, shouldn't be an issue.
What I'm saying is that depending on what the new ability could be, they will design Sonic's routes through levels around that. Trying to design a Sonic-specific route around two movesets would be very limiting BECAUSE you would have to make sure both movesets could get through it, and we still don't know what Sonic's new ability will be.@@evdestroy5304
Great video
7:36 HOW IS THIS NOT OVBIOUS TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS THE CHANGE? I've tried to fight for the thok before, but I kept getting "but the new players are suffering!!1!" and "it's way too bland" and "its too hard to navigate". Do they not realize that people who like the thok are NOT gonna support 2.3 and it's changes? I actually don't mind the Sonic momentum in the vid that was gonna be 2.3's physics, as mod chars could keep up with someone like Metal or Sonic. Considering that you said the thok didn't feel out of place is grea- oh what? They abandoned it? Oh. You should have to sink time into SRB2 and the thok if you want to use the thok skillfully, just like the Roll, the Instashield, and Dropdash. I got countered with "thats just skill issue" NO, its actually playing the game.
They don’t care
Personally, I think adding an "option" for the ability is a terrible idea. It would just add too many complications, especially as far as multiplayer goes for the 2 people out there who can put up with the godawful netcode. Adding a new character and giving THEM the thok feels like a cleaner solution.
If thok must be replaced, it should be replaced with the rebound dash as it builds from the thok.
Glaber I appreciate what you've done with your own pieces of modding but I gotta hard disagree with this take right here.
In relation to my own comment on here as well as long story short, rebound dash has a lot of nuiances that ultimately make it less than ideal for a thok replacement as well as it overlapping hard with Knuckles.
If you want a list that defeats the purpose of this being brief then rebound dash:
- Has a specific spin state to it that's not beginner friendly
- Specific spin state is itself specific to what part of rebound you hit
- Second attempt at rebound leaves you vulnerable
- None of base SRB2 or other physic mods have the same speed retention as MRCE's version
- This ultimately means it's slower than the thok
- Walls and enemies arguably become more of a curse than a blessing due to some of these specifics
- Overlaps hard with Knuckles and possibly makes playing him redundant due to how Knuckles' gimped jump and unclimbable walls balances him
Only replacement that's on the MB or any mod in particular that's a worthy replacement for the thok is literally called "New Thok" which whilst it has its own context sensitivities, it's ultimately just taking the thok and doing something of its own that doesn't over complicate movement. The big things it adds being air hang time and refreshing on bounce/hit.
@@GrayvyFellow the big problem with trying to replace the thok at all is it's been around for so long that replacing it now is going to be near impossible.
this may be a hot take but why don't they just put a double jump on the jump button and the thok on the spin dash button? i know thats very modern sonic but i don't think it'd be that out of place.
I want air dash and the homing attack
Just here to say ANOTHER reason we shouldn't just be told to mod the thok back in, is because you'll obviously lose unlocks due to addons, which would obviously spoil... having the thok and Just wanting to play the game with it.
I think that one of the new updates allowed you to save with addons. Not sure if you lose unlocks or not tho.
2.2.12 fixed that
the thing about "being hard and easy at the same time" is simply because thok has a low skill floor yet a immense skill ceiling, literally "easy to use, hard to master", don't know how y'all are debating this game without knowing this simple principle
This is expect of an sonic game but noooooooooo we're too lazy
…no wonder why srb2kart is moving on into its own thing
your points were a lot better this time, and you seem to have (slightly) toned down the aggression which got a bit out of line a few times in the original video. i agree the thok should be kept, it's fun and satisfying, and the argument against even having it as an option is really unconvincing.
i'm sure i'm not the first person to think of this, but if they want a more new player-friendly alternative to the thok, why not just give it to sonic & tails, and leave solo sonic the way he is? sonic & tails is already designed to be the easier version of sonic anyways. maybe the new move could even involve tails in some way.
I'm decent with the thok, but I still dislike it for how it trivializes getting to top speed. Being able to reach top speed instantly only by tapping the same button twice makes the spin dash redundant, and it probably wouldn't work well with the more momentum focused direction they're taking the game. I get why people like it regardless, so I don't think anyone's necessarily wrong for thinking they should keep it, especially considering your New Coke comparison, but I don't think there's no good reason to remove it either.
Though I do fully believe they need to find a compromise. It'd be incredibly stubborn to ignore what most of their community is saying. Maybe just making the thok itself more momentum based? Like if you do it from a standstill, it's basically just the air dash from Sonic Adventure, but if you do it while running at top-speed, it's as potent as it ever was.
why does there have to be a debate? just make an option for both
*Thok*
We mobile players on srb2 are definitely not getting the 2.3 Update, They gave up on working on the mobile updates, lmao.
You also forgot to mention the drop dash is already in a 3D sonic (sonic frontiers) and before you tell me they are different games with different formulas I just wanna say that srb2’s levels are usually pretty open
I don't think the drop dash is very useful in Frontiers though, and plus it's not Sonic's only ability in that game, not by a long shot.
@@kfcnyancat I think the better 3D game for camparison would be Sonic GT or Encore
3:33 hmm yes my fav game sonic and the video game for the ceeinsis
0:02 ooooooooooo ultraman
Hey, quick question. What did you mean by 'feature creep' in SRB2?
Adding feature after feature instead of working and polishing with what's already in
I think the best move is for everyone to swap to Knuckles because he's cooler than Sonic
Is it your day? AND I'M HAVING NIGHT!