You make a lot of interesting and valid points, even if I don't quite agree with all of the presentation. The new moveset does feel more like 'Smash Bros' to me, and not something that can be discovered organically without a tutorial. One of the original design goals for Sonic on the Genesis/Megadrive was that you could 'play it with one button'. You rightly mentioned how Nintendo does this often too, like the contextual actions in Ocarina of Time. Regarding the Mario 64 points, I don't think most people ever learned the entire Mario 64 moveset, as it's not necessary to complete the game. New players choosing Sonic first is definitely, and always was, a problem. They probably should bring back an 'EASY/MEDIUM/HARD' label on the character select screen, slapping it over Tails/Knuckles/Sonic, respectively. I also feel like the wall climb move negates some of the point of playing as Tails and Knuckles. I still do not like the speed/acceleration changes made to Tails and Knuckles to bring them to parity with Sonic (they feel too heavy without the thok, IMO), but there are probably level design reasons they did it. A lot of how we got to this point is contextual to the history of SRB2. There used to not be any slopes, so the thok was a factor in being able to go fast. The only control scheme was what is now known as 'Legacy', which allowed you to precisely steer the direction you wanted the thok to go. It could also be useful for lining up a shot on a boss and to hit him quickly during his vulnerable window. I took a lot of inspiration from Sonic 1 for level design without having slopes at my disposal, because you'll find a lot of those stages are not sloped much despite claims from Sega's marketing department in 1990. I think the new moveset as well as accel momentum is extremely creative and I appreciate the effort that it took to implement, but like slopes, I wonder how much the levels would need to be completely recreated AGAIN to accommodate it.
I think a simple "Fix" to the Thok would be, make the Thok send you slightly upward, like a Pseudo double jump, while mantaining it's main function of propulsing you forward in the air.
I have an example on how to do that breakfast sandwich right. 1. bring it down to one move (the cloudburst, or more arbitrarily, the diagonal jump) 2. have the cloudburst's charge limit depend on how fast the player is going. The faster the player, the more the charge can grow. 3. whatever direction the player faces does not completely affect the charge or the direction the player goes(if the player moves forward and then charges backwards, the cloudburst should easily travel the player in that direction with only 80% less speed than if the player charged in the direction the player faced) I have better examples on my channel in case you want to look at what it should be. However, I still think the thok should not be replaced as it's still less complicated than my explanation above. My explanation at the end of the day is literally a charged diagonal thok.
Oh, Mr SSN, I always wonder, why you never used any badniks from the original series? (except the ice cap penguin but I don’t think anyone cares about it)
Best Solution: Give all players the option to toggle between the Classic Thok and upcoming Neo Thok for the next major SRB2 update, identical to the various Air Dash settings in Sonic P-06.
Even though, it is a good solution. But sometimes, some players would think they need more abilities to experience with, so, it would be more better including these jumping abilities: The Insta-Shield (Sonic the Hedgehog 3) The Drop Dash (Sonic Mania) The double jump (Sonic R) or even disabling the ability incase some players don't want that ability after pressing jump again. And it would be also useful for this to be informed in the description of Sonic's character select. Something like: "Sonic also includes some variety for abilities, which can be changed in options. Make sure if you don't want the pre-made option, then instead go to the [Name for Sonic's ability selection] and decide which to use." Also including a description on each selection of the air abilities like: [Insta-shield] "The Insta-shield from Sonic the hedgehog 3 is back! If you didn't know, this gives Sonic a shield for a split-second which can avoid the damage of some hazards/enemies." [Drop Dash] "The Drop Dash from Sonic Mania is also here! meaning you can keep your speed after jumping, just press [Jump/Spin button] while jumping and Sonic will charge a spindash in the air, which gets released on the ground, the longer you charge it in the air, the faster the spindash is." [Double jump] "The double jump from Sonic R's also here! It's a simple ability for simple players! While Sonic is jumping, press [Jump button] again to make Sonic reach some more height, it's useful yet simple to use." [Disabled] "By any case, if you don't feel comfortable using any of these options, you can always pick the classic no jumping ability, which is most simple yet, since most players don't want to play with the thok but don't like any of the other options, a normal simple once jump can always be your best tool. Even though the jump height is a little bit changed in case you can't reach some places you before could."
altho i agree with everything with the video, i must object with the boost formula thing, since in reality it only really applies to sonic forces, cuz in unleashed and generations, you can't just push boost to win, you're still required to react to your enviroment in order to maintain the boost, if you don't, you'l likelly either fall into a trap, die, or end up in the slower route.
Honestly, in my opinion at least, the thok wasn't actually that hard to use at all to begin with, like, yeah, it's hard to master, but it's so simple that even a kid could figure it out. My biggest gripe with the thok was that it used to be a nightmare to use it to snap back with a keyboard only control scheme (which used to be my prefered method up until recently), but the Automatic control setting fixes that. On another note, I'm pretty sure that Kart Krew has already gotten in trouble with the community after some planned changes to SRB2 Kart's battlemode which ended up in them making an original game instead. I really hope they know what they're doing with SRB2 because it would be fucking awful if a game that has been in development for longer that I have been alive just goes out the crapper because of drama with the devs.
I originally had a distain for Thok when I first started playing, but I grew to not mind it over time since I barely play as Sonic anyway. When I do though, it's situational at best. But I definitely like the idea of Tails Aid being activated from further away.
Yeah, the thok really is mostly unnecessary to complete the game, but if you master it you can get through obstacles easier, or just spam it to speedrun the levels. It is a tool for experienced players to hugely improve the stages' rhythm
I like the breakfast sandwich actually, it looks a lot like the drop-dash only with more uses given the added dimension. Charge a drop-dash onto land, you dash forward, charge a drop-dash onto water, you skip on the water like a rock and like in the Sonic CD intro, charge a drop-dash into a wall, you dash up the wall. Maybe if it _was_ just a more gnarly drop-dash and didn’t replace the thok, it wouldn’t get so much hate.
Funny, on my first playthrough I used the thok often to save myself from missing a jump. I didn't go "oh that's too hard to use I won't use that" I went "I need to be more careful about using this." And guess what I was already using it to skip some platforming in the first stage.
The comparison to SM64 tickles me because Sonic was always from the start specifically designed to NOT be Mario. He was designed originally to be the Mario killer, the hot new thing that would rise SEGA up to Nintendo's heights and above so they could take the crown for themselves. This never came into fruition, SEGA's own poor financial decisions would go on to lose them the console wars, but the fact remains that the old 2D games that SRB2 is trying to be a 3D version of were specifically designed to be different from Mario. Even with the transition into 3D with Sonic Adventure, they specifically didn't give Sonic a huge complex SM64 moveset. Sonic was always about keeping it simple, and letting the complexity come from player skill rather than from a broad moveset. Trying to get all inspired by SM64 with Sonic's moveset is to repeat the mistakes of Mystic, an old community member who left a while back who used to be the head of the old STJR. I don't want to get into the whole controversy around him, but one of the things he's infamous for is holding too high of a regard for Mario design when designing for SRB2. All of those really hard, really slow platforming levels that everyone hates in the vanilla game? Yeah, he designed most of those. When he left the community and the new STJR took over, hopes were high that his attempts to turn SRB2 into basically a Mario fangame were now dead in the water and the game could head down the route of being more accurate to the source material that it's a fangame of. Instead, it seems like the new STJR are just repeating the same mistake of trying to implement too much Mario design in their Sonic game. The thok works because it's simple to understand and has a high skill ceiling. This new move they're trying to implement probably has a low skill floor and ceiling. That is to say, while the thok isn't particularly beginner friendly, it's very rewarding for those who can get good with it. This new move on the other hand looks like it will have a much lower skill ceiling in comparison, and thus will be less rewarding for more skilled players as the price being paid for Sonic being the easiest character to use. If they must insist on giving Sonic this new ability instead, the least they could do is give Metal Sonic the thok instead so that those of us who are good with it can still use it.
I think sonic advanced 3 had a similar move but that was a bonus for partnering up sonic and knuckles. Why not make the thok a sonic alone ability the drop dash the sonic and tails ability and the wall dash for a new sonic and knuckles mode. There problem solved.
Sad to see that even fangames are not safe from "a lot of new players aren't willing to put in the effort to learn a game, so let's keep everyone safe from the game's challenges." I think a good analogy is Rainbow Road from Mario Kart, at least when it's hard. Some players hate it because they fall off easily, and so they simply prefer different tracks. There's nothing that needs to be fixed if there's people who DO love playing the track, it's the final level for a reason. Some indication that Sonic is the hardest difficulty is really a good solution, but of course appealing to random casual's complaints is an easy way to get support from people who don't play the game.
I'm part of the SRB2 speedrunning community and have been there for a long time and fundamentally agree with the thok shouldn't be removed. With that being said... I feel like the structure of the video was maybe a little backwards. It seemed like you were coming across way too harshly to STJr and we never truly got to see what that reason was beyond "an idea was put forth" and I believe that idea that was mentioned was scrapped due to player feedback anyway. Also the idea to remove the thok was first mentioned by Mystic, one of the actual OG members. I know they've been banned now but a little bit on the fence to give the new team all this grief over an old members decision. Also there was never any consensus for the other side of the argument. It's undeniable that the thok is hard to control for beginners and it almost does have a "don't press this button" stigma to it, but it could've easily been discussed as to why that is. Like there's no coyote time in this game which badly hurts this character when you thok onto a tiny bit of a slope, think you've landed, and the game is like "nah sorry you're in the air", something coyote time would fix. I feel these kinds of pro points towards the thok and how the game is almost systematically against Sonic would've been far stronger than the idea that thok is fine as it is. Thok is a great ability and as a speedrunner I don't want to see it changing, but I can't pretend that it has no issues or is good for new players. With speedrunning we can make a lot of interesting skips due to jumping the frame we land, what if they gave Sonic the ability to retain a lot more of that thok speed when he lands so that new players can also make use of it? That would encourage the use of the thok so much more and the ability would be essentially unchanged for what we use the character for, appealing to both sides. It was just a little strange to watch this video, fundamentally agree with you, have a discord that fundamentally agreed, but didn't really take well to how the message was laid out and I don't know if insulting the STJr will really create a solid foundation for any sort of communication to be had on this matter. You could've brought up another attempt that the community had to change Sonic with the MRCE mod which gave Sonic an altered thok and wall jump. Would've been interesting to hear if there were *any* ideas of a remedy for the thok that you liked over what I agree with you was a really strange looking concept from back in 2021.
This is a pretty interesting analysis. The breakfast sandwich/power spin is essentially a better Knuckles without integrating game knowledge. It also has that stop-and-go feel of Fang, which to me, doesn't make sense for Sonic of all characters. The thok is a skill that represents an understanding of the game's physics and geometry. Once you master the thok, it will take you to great heights, thanks to the vanilla maps implementing slopes. You can skip a large portion of a map from badnik bouncing, or cross a gap; the applications of the thok are great once you understand the maps. Fun fact: the thok restricted your movement until touching a surface in 2.0, making you commit to your boost in speed (which was either 80 or 70 fracs I forgot). 2.1 removed that limitation, giving thokkers free movement. Pretty insightful video. Well done.
Speaking of which, Fang shouldn't even get rid of the momentum you've built up with your Jog/Run as soon as you go into the Pogo-Tail state. If anything, the top speed that you've built up to with Fang should be retained, even if you're using his Pogo-Tail.
I say this because it not only feels clunky as hell to suddenly just... Stop on a dime in mid-air and for you to suddenly build up that speed all over again, but Its also the fact that it makes no logical sense when It comes to physics.
I think turning the thok into a homing attack while targeting is on is an acceptable compromise. It makes sonic easier for new players without removing the speed reward for skilled players.
but that would make fang/nack feel outclassed in terms of combat senarios. sure he can hit from farther and he still has the spring tail but the reason his pop gun attack works is due to it locking on to enemies but if sonic can do it too then what can fang offer
Honestly I have no Idea why the homing attack wasn't implemented on top of the thok. The thok could just be the airdash as seen in the other games with the homing attack. I honestly hate taking out enemies in SRB2 without the homing attack. Also they should really add a ranking system at the end off levels like the other 3D sonic games.
There was a time when among people who liked Classic Sonic but disliked Modern Sonic (which, some of the most crucial old SRB2 devs were) had a consensus that the homing attack being "too automatic" was one of the problems. Nowadays those people tend to be more willing to acknowledge that the Homing Attack was a good solution to the problem of "precisely landing on enemies in 3D," which is why 3D Sonic fangames that aim to be more like the Classic games than the official 3D games still often include the homing attack in some form. I actually think SRB2 doesn't need the homing attack, they managed the idea of a 3D Sonic with no homing attack (and one with smaller enemies than the official ones) pretty well, but I definitely think if the thok is "too hard" the homing attack would be a much better solution.
@@kfcnyancat i mean, there's already a homing attack in the game's code as a skinability that basically works as one would likely imagine, being a weaker thok on it's own but having the ability to y'know DO THE HOMING ATTACK it also uncurls you for some reason
i really like this solution idea, but also @kfcnyancat makes the most historically convincing argument as to why it wasn't that way and maybe shouldn't even be that way. regardless if this whole discussion doesn't end with some form of toggleable/customizable sonic abilities, idk if there is any one good solution.
Personally I like it better without the homing attack since it actually makes most of the enemies that don't just wander feel like more than set dressing. Like those crabs that shoot their claws out at you would be a non-issue with the homing attack but without it you have to be aware of your surroundings and use movement to get out of the way and dispatch them before they hit you.
Even as someone who sucked ass at properly using the thok most of the time, their "solution" only complicates Sonic further and makes more problems than it needs to. A better solution would be to just adjust the thok's power depending on Sonic's speed, so if doing it at a stand still it would be similar to the Air Dash in the Adventure games, and at top speed it would work like usual; I feel that new players would control that better than the Breakfast Sandwich
To me, the Thok has been the most useful move in Sonic. It works a lot like the Sonic 3's fire shield and really helps to reach places that are further. I like the thok a lot.
You make a lot of good points in this video, but I also have some criticisms. Let me start with the good stuff. The comparison to Air Ride was something I was not expecting, and yet it does make sense. Keeping character abilities simple, and allowing them to interact with the rest of the game in multiple different ways, is a path towards good game design. I also appreciated the reminder of how classic Sonic gameplay works. The upper and lower paths dynamic is something that is absent from SRB2's level design, and although I partially attribute it to the difficulty of designing Sonic levels in 3D, I'm sure it can be done. Now onto the things I think could be improved. First of all, I believe you need a bit of an attitude adjustment. I'm aware that you're not the biggest fan of what Sonic Team Jr. is doing right now, but that doesn't give you an excuse to slander them through memes and the "nu-STJr" label. This isn't just about giving them respect, it's about your target audience. If you want to reach out to players of SRB2, then insulting the fangame's creators will cause potential viewers to turn away. Second, some of the information given in the video is outdated or false. I can't expect everyone to be on top of things, especially when STJr isn't the best at communicating themselves. But I know you're part of the SRB2 Discord, so you could have done some more thorough searches. Multiple members of STJr's development team have stated that the replacement for the thok _is not set in stone,_ and that they _are_ listening to community feedback. The accel-momentum build also wasn't received well by many of the people that tested it on GitLab, and I've seen another merge request that only adds momentum to the physics and changes nothing else. Finally, I would like to give my opinion on the thok debate. There are some things that STJr are unwilling to budge on, and replacing the thok is one of them. I get it - people don't like change. But instead of dwelling on the past, we should think about how we can change the future. Personally, I prefer building on the concept of the airdash as opposed to scrapping it for something else. Maybe let it climb walls, or turn it into the Rebound Dash from Mystic Realm Community Edition. Something that's relatively simple, doesn't rely too much on context (like in Sonic Adventure), yet is still unique.
I agree, the video makes some very interesting points, but insulting the Devs just makes it difficult to believe that any argument in this is made in good faith...
It absolutely isn’t they are just looking to be smug and look down on people, it’s filled with constant attacks at everything like Utopia. I’m certain I could bait this guy into making a five hour long video about why I’m wrong about wanting the bounce attack as a default ability in SRB2 and 3D Sonic in general. Rambling about changes in a fairly open project like this that are easy to revert and modify just comes across as petty especially with the amount of personal attacks this video has
Classic Sonic fans literally going out of their way to invent a breakfast sandwich instead of just adding the homing attack. The homing attack is literally just the thock but better in Sonic 4. If the devs of Sonic 4 are more intelligent than you, you know you done goofed.
It doesnt seem all too complicated although an option to select the thok and the versatile sonic would be much appreciate. Whining that something is too complicated isnt a solid reason to shut something down especially considering all fo it uses the same button. Claiming ppl will just spam the button, which is LITERALLY what theyre doing with the thok
i don't know if replacing thok with a bunch of context-sensitive goodstuff is the right move, but i don't think that just slapping a "SONIC DIFFICULT" sticker on is much of a solution for the main and default character having an ability with one of the bigger skill floors. thok feels like the kind of thing you'd get on a character you unlock after a set amount of levels
I never played the game, I got no clue how hard the thok is to use, but if overshooting is that much of a problem, why not just give players a bit more control over its power by either tapping or holding the button midair? You could even go so far as to not have the tap-thok's momentum preserved as much so it mostly works only as a platforming tool while the hold-thok behaves like the original. One slow, safe version and a fast, risky one?
Since the issue is how unwieldy the thok can be to new players, why not make it so it has to be charged, kinda like the drop dash? New players who tap the button would get a small bit of speed, which is good for correcting jumps like they expect, and older players who love the insane thok would charge it up and get the normal huge burst of momentum. It'd be a little less satisfying, but since you need more time and space to charge more speed, it'd also mean it would be a little harder to just skip huge chunks of a level by just tapping a button, which could help with the level design not being made for it, too.
The "new" ability was an experiment made one day, and there was zero official confirmation that it will be the thok replacement. And I'm sincerely tired of everyone talking like "erm... why would the soyjak SRB2 devs do that????" over something that wasn't even implemented.
While I agree with most of your thoughts, I feel like the near-constant attacks on STJr is annoying and just kinda rude especially characterizing them as Soyjacks.
7:28~7:37 There's also his *literal* Double Jump in Sonic R, as well as his Homing Attack in Generations (It's an equipable skill in the console/PC versions and permanently unlocked in the 3DS version), which brings this count to four.
The new ability is cool, but it should be streamlined a bit. Here's my idea: Remove the double jump and focus on the press and release on a surface feature. They will dash in any direction on the surface based on the direction they're holding when the button is released. Allow the player to jump off of tangentially from the surface they're dashing on. Now the player only has to think about a few things: Is this surface safe to touch? How (if at all) should I use my new All-terrain-Dash, to traverse it. The ability to jump out of the ATD dash adds a layer of complexity, problem solving and flow to a tool that's already versatile. It's a drop dash with sauce. Easy to understand. The stop and go nature of it (with having to wait to land to do a spin dash) makes it easier for player to adjust before zooming off, which makes it much easier to use for beginners. However, their justification for this new feature is dog shit. The thok may appear simple, but it interacts with the level design and gameplay elements in a complex ways. It's a tool with room for experimentation, not just a few specific interactions like with the new tool. Sonic should be unwieldy if someone doesn't know how to use his speed, it fits perfectly with his character. He's a wild dude, but that can get him in trouble. Immersing the players in a character is about all the sides of that character not just the ones that look good. Keep the thok, maybe add the new ability as a new part of the spin dash.
I'm only 4 minutes into the video, but I'd like to say that I immediately understood exactly how this new ability works just by watching that short clip, and I haven't even played this fan-game. It doesn't seem nearly as complicated as you make it out to be, it's just a more versatile dropdash from Mania.
The only unintuitive bit really is the mid-air dash. Everything else is literally just a drop dash with the cool added bonus of being able to use it on walls, sort of like an extension of Lost World's wall running/wallspindash.
Honestly as much as I like the feel of the thok, If the changes in 2.3 fuction similarly to the Multispin mod I might see it working really well. Then again they could really just give him the homing attack on top of the thok. They actually feel good to use in SRB2 since you use the momentum from the attack instead of just awkwardly losing most momentum like in most 3D Sonic games
I have been outdated on Srb2 updates for a while since Android port was deprecated, learnt that they wanted to change Sonic but haven't seen anything else. don't know if there are new words on the Sandwich ability since the release of this video, but I pretty much agree with the video. While I understand the dev's vision, this feels like when Majora Mask 3D reworked Zora and Deku abilities completly, while it sounds good on dev's perspective, returning players will know all of the issues with it and throw shit on the newer version forever, and new players will find problems on the downgraded abilites and think it is their problem or their controller's problem. The best of this is that Sega has already done part of what I am seeing with the Breakfast Sandwich, and I can't believe I think they did better. Climbing up walls, double jump? sounds like Sonic Lost World to me. How is it better? because it doesn't replace Sonic's main abilities, It's a different button that triggers the running on walls. I don't understand why moving it to 1 button is benefitial, when you think about jumping, you press a button to jump, you don't think about the same button to run under certain conditions, or bounce on the water, which spindash was already capable of doing so. Imagine playing Sonic frontiers with all buttons mapped to 1. In the end I see having all of these as 1 ability button, absurd. Why not: - Press Spindash button while on air to guarantee bouncing on water - Keep running at enough speed towards a wall to climb it, no more buttons than fordward (or angled input) needed. - Double jump just when you want to double jump, without overwriting if you want to run on a wall, gain more control over what you want to do. This would make Sonic feel more like Sonic and easier to learn for newcommers This also would help towards other characters being able to obtain part of these abilities (I don't see why Sonic would be able to bounce on the water while any other character wouldn't) and even WAD characters that clearly could do part of the same moveset (Imagine Espio not being able to run on walls) Another example would be the recently released game, Penny's Big Breakaway. You have 1 button to perform a million moves, while all of them are related to the yo-yo, starting the game is horrible, you have to play a lot to defend yourself and even more to master it, with what you can do and how to do it, and if you get nervious, Game Over because you messed up what you wanted to do because everything is on one button. Requires quite a lot of skill. Now add SRB2's netplay, all of this, with input delay? This would be like remaking Sonic 1 but removing the ability to press down to spindash. Updating a character, specially Sonic, shouldn't be about changing the whole character, should be about adding more to it. And Team Jr, if you simply love chaos and don't want to rethink on all the controversy, add a toggle, or a character that resembles the original SRB2 Sonic. On a side note, Amy will become even more useless now? I love to main her but I don't see a world where she fits if literally everyone can fly around except her. Unless Team Junior says "Tails is so OP let's make him fly for 2 seconds only" and "Knuckles shouldn't climb these walls because it would be too easy"... wait a moment they already did the last one... WHICH WOULD almost for sure apply for Sonic's climbing too, making his ability pointless in late levels. I don't understand the point on over complicating a fan game that should reunite Sonic fans. Anyways, would love to see if Team Jr ever makes their own proper IP game, because there they have all the power to invent whatever they want with their own characters and it will probably be a Goty. Just don't make us have a total different experience with Sonic than literally everything else in the world. We should be able to carry over what Sonic, Tails and Knuckles do from the main games, to other fan games and SRB2, so we only have to get used to the engine.
I first started playing SRB2 about two years ago and I never had a problem with the thok. Personally what turned me off the game the most was the sudden difficulty spike and being funnelled into routes with bottom-less pits. I also feel like Tails and Knuckles are so powerful by comparison that they don't really ease you into the game and more that they let you skip it entirely. Honestly the best solution is to probably just ease up on the bottomless pits, remove the life system or both. If I were to change the thok and I'd probably add a tiny double jump if you press the jump button in the middle of a thok. It gives you a small amount of leeway if you over or undershoot a thok, but comes at the cost of losing momentum. It also doesn't completely remove one of the shields or severely nerfs a movement option whenever there's an enemy or item box nearby.
My main problem is...there is just too much momentum to anything you do. Too slow to accelerate, too slow to come to a halt when needed. The thok merely amplifies this problem and isn't the core issue most people have with the game. I think they need to either rework the entire physics engine to accomodate for the 'weird' level design we have now or overhaul the level design completely so that stages aren't just a mess of blocks that are hard to diffirentiate and navigate around and make consistenly decent levels. I started playing it around 2008-2009 and every time I decide to go back to it - it's like I'm playing a completely different game and it's getting harder with each new interation. Why did they go the route of intricate platforming when the base physics aren't that great for it? I have zero clue.
honestly my hottake is that the issues with the thok stem less from the move itself, but rather how level design actively punishes new players for using it past zone 3 with all of the instant kill death planes & ring destroying floor hazards n whatnot. while I understand what they were doing with castle eggman & beyond, it's still just a random gigantic leap in diffuculty that I always dread having to playthrough ESPECIALLY as a character who doesn't have any good options for upwards movement also from the little I've used it the rebound dash is just better anyways, since it keeps the core essence of the thok while giving sonic some much needed verticality lol
isn't that how testing works?i don't have experience with game design,but shouldn't game devs test the game with people that aren't that experienced in video games?just curious
The way you think about the Power Spin (I've heard it called this in the forums) as an overly complex swiss army knife is funny, I didn't see it like that at all. AFAIK the Power Spin is just meant to be an ability Sonic can use contextually. An easy description of it is that it does something different on land, sea, air and cliffsides. We even already have another character that has a contextual ability, Knuckles. On the land he spins, in the air or in water he glides and on cliffsides he climbs, is it that much more complicated than Sonic's Power Spin idea? Also, for an idea that replaces the Thok but doesn't go as far we already have a great one; Krabs' Rebound Dash. It's like a better Thok in every way with added utility that help the player recover missed platforms with the wall bounce, rewards with more route options based on skill and creativity and has better aesthetics in general. We can definitely do better than the Thok imo.
My issue with the thok was that it made the other characters feel a lot slower in comparison, but the thing is that Sonic needs something to emphasize that he is the fastest one, of course. I just think that it invalidates other characters/makes them feel like the easy mode. It also invalidates the need to build momentum, because you can use it and then be at max run speed
thok: - simple to understand - may lead to deaths via poor timing - too much speed via acceleration new ability: - jack of all traits, master of none - will most likely make people die more often when they want to do X but end up doing Y - much more difficult to master and even explain no idea why they didnt just do a simple double jump (akin to sonic r) or something like the drop dash tbh, its overcomplicating for the sakes of overcomplicating
Why question is, WHY CREATE SOMETHING MORE COMPLICATRD THAN THR THOK!? Like seriously, I don't mind things like rebound dash and other sonic changing things, but the thok is a great to give a good way to start up your momentum in these levels. Also, why in the WORLD would you remove such a basic ability for something more "intuitive". The "average player" doesnt need to learn THIS MUCH STUFF FOR ONE CHARACTER. Sonic should be used for horizontal movement, not vertical.
Mania allows to change sonics ability, why remove the moves???? Especially when it's been there for 23 years I am the same as you I was born in 1999 they had itthesame since a month after I was born😢
This video honestly feels more like "Why the new move is bad" instead of "Why the Speed Thok is good". While I do not like how the new move looks, I do think the Thok needs a rework, even if I myself love the move. Overall I don't think this video does a very good job at saying the thok isn't that bad like the thumbnail says, it more so feels like "Why the thok is the lesser evil". On that note, showing Unleashed footage when talking about why instant speed is bad just doesn't feel right to me when that game's day levels are generally considered to be the boost formula actually done right. Also, I disagree on the whole "speed is a reward" thing but that's a whole another topic that would take me hours to touch upon. I definitely agree with the point you're making, but I just can't find myself agreeing with your reasoning for it very often.
I'm mixed on the thok tbh. On one hand, Sonic was never the "hard mode" character to play as in the classic Sonic games, so it doesn't make sense for his base ability to be so hard to control. On the other hand, the thok has a really high skill ceiling and can be really fun to master. As someone who's not SUPER into this game, I see the Homing Attack as a good compromise, as it lowers the skill floor, while mostly retaining the skill ceiling. Ideally, the Homing Attack by default with an option to toggle into classic thok would probably work best, as opposed to the Breakfast Sandwich. That being said, I think the Breakfast Sandwich is also a cool move that just works differently depending on context, which isn't something we've never seen before. I think it's intuitive enough and does lead to experimentation, and potentially has just as high a skill ceiling as the thok, but with a much lower skill floor. Whatever happens, I think there's a lot of elitism regarding this game, and more accessibility on the main title character is generally a good thing.
why is everyone saying this new move is "too complicated" it's just a contextual move... like... what is so complicated about that? it's like a drop dash that you can release midair or even on a wall itself, it seems pretty simple to me. I love the Thok but this new move actually looks cool.
I do agree with this video. While i did kind of understand their mindsets when going over why the thok could be replaced, I actually got pretty annoyed when they said it wasnt fun and rewarding. There isnt a need to make Sonic the most beginner friendly character, as that's Tails's job. If new players dont want to fly over the levels, Knuckles serves as a good middle ground, as he doesn't just ignore platforming altogether, but also even has his own dedicated sections designed around his specific moveset. While i understand that the thok may conflict with the new momentum based physics (which i think look amazing), It is definitely a rewarding move to master. Because of the way physics worked when the thok was made, it didnt take long for Sonic to reach his ground speed cap, but in the air, momentum had no limit. The thok discourages beginners from using it recklessly, while encouraging them to maintain that aerial momentum. I had a hard time using it until i saw the way other people used it. Upon experimentation, I learned that the risk is the commitment to the direction you send yourself, but it rewards you with constant speed and even allows you to save yourself from falling if you're precise. If the thok doesnt work with the new direction they're taking the project, they need to make a move that meshes well with that design while maintaining the amount of skill that it took to master the thok. A Swiss army knive of a move that invalidates most of the platforming is the wrong answer.
my only problem with the thok is that i thought it was a homing attack for the longest time, so i would thok into enemies expecting to lock on only to go flying, but that might just be me not being able to read
finally, a correct opinion about this. got banned from srb2 discord in a discussion about this. thok should be a skillful move. insta-shield wasn't user friendly in sonic 3, and nobody wants to replace that with anything. the new sandwich thing or whatever you called it looks more like a modded game. i agree on everything with you except the pizza tower bosses are easy and the homing attack. instead of a homing attack, autobrake should just make the thok slow down mid-air a couple milliseconds after thokking. since only noobs and android players play this game with autobrake then it will assist them with not overshooting while actual players can use it like how it was meant to be. the new dev team has been weird. change is alright and all, but it seems like they are taking it in an odd direction. i have no idea what happened to the majority of the old dev team, and alot of the judges on the mb have been replaced by some randos who allow anything through. if this sandwich mode goes through, my hatred for the gamebanana-mod-creating side of the playerbase that has fluctuated ever since the release of 2.2 will only increase.
@@MACHOLORIf I had to make an educated guess, Its because the devs have argued with people over their agenda of not having the Thok anymore over the years, they figure that banning people off the Message Board is the best option.
As somebody who has played the Adventure games before SRB2, I definitely prefer Sonic's double jump action to be a homing attack, but that's probably because I got used to it so much. I personally do not hate the Thok, but I certainly do not care for it either.
To describe my experience with the game a bit further: when I first started playing SRB2, it felt to me that the game was "slippery", especially when playing with a controller. After my struggling through the first run of the game, a friend of mine has recommended me the Adventure Sonic mod, and after installing it, it felt much more comfortable to play, again, probably due to my existing playing habits and muscle memory built up from SA1 and SA2.
@@azzypics That's the reason why It felt slippery right there, you were using a controller. SRB2 Is a game that's intended for you to use your Keyboard, since Its made using the DOOM Legacy engine. You kind of have to treat It In a way that's closer to DOOM In terms of how you control the characters.
@@mirage1713 Yeah, I realized that after spending some time with the game. It's a great thing that the game is so deeply customizable with mods that everyone can have the experience they want.
The Thok is so damn good and satisfying to use. It isn’t required once in the entire game and is used entirely as the speed as a reward thing. My personal suggestion would be to add a difficulty indicator to each character on the main screen, sonic and tails being 2 stars, tails being 1 star, knuckles being 2/3 stars, and Sonic standalone being 4. I’m not playing 2.3 if they end up replacing the Thok.
I've been playing SRB2 since 2001. I honestly don't like the Thok very much, as it's a pain in the ass to kill enemies with, but I also don't care for the solution. I think just making it a homing attack when close to an enemy, and leaving it as-is otherwise is probably the best way to go. Basically like you suggested. Maybe with the addition of a drop dash. Though, I have to say... what's up with the portraying the devs as soyjaks? Could have got your point across without the passive-aggressive ad-hominem bullshit.
The new move just kinda seems like an overdesigned dropdash, which is fine. Not a massive fan of the thok, like, at that point, just give me a homing attack or air boost, although it's also fine? Not my preference but I don't hate it.
Honestly I feel like one of the best solutions for making the Thok a better mobility tool is giving it just a tiny bit of height and making it momentum-based. MCSonic does this, and it's great IMO, it feels a lot more natural and gives Sonic a reason to build up speed while also giving him a tool to correct jumps without overshooting. No need to replace it, just make it more versatile.
5:55 Wait so you just explained how the only 2 buttons in the game change functionality depending on context, which was your argument against the new move
The weirdest thing is that they cant see that tails is the beginner character. He literally flies over the platforms in this platforming game. I remember playing srb2 with some friends and all of us getting a game over many times. we were noobs, but a few of us picked tails/knuckles, and the rest just started moving carefully and actually learning the game's physics. Now we can all essentially speedrun the game as sonic because we learned the game. nobody should be a master on their first playthrough. The thok is close to if not the perfect tool for sonic in a mouse-and-keyboard sonic game. And dont get me started on the homing dash. Its a tool for noobs to again, skip platforming. The thok is just so much better at being a tool for traversal as youre fully in control of sonic when you thok. When you homing dash not only is player agency stripped for the brief moment you attack an enemy, it also slows down your character. I remember playing sonic heroes and all I did was mash jump for every situation which makes the gameplay uninteresting as that becomes the only movement tool.
I do agree with the sediment that the thok is better for this game than the Homing Attack, but I have to point out your sonic heroes point. If you're mashing Homing Attack on enemies and getting bored by its mindlessness, that's kind of your fault, as that's not hoe it's meant to be played. The Homing Attack is mainly for chains of aerial enemies. Any enemies that take more than one hit to kill with the Homing Attack should probably be dealt with by another character. Maybe go back to the game and try to learn it better😊. When I mastered the game, it became my second favorite in the whole series.
the initial criticism is interesting to me, I actually find the thok to be boring more than anything else. Why should we have a button to gain speed that has no time investment? There's basically no downside to doing it in most areas once you can aim and its not actually that difficult.
Whereas Nintendo EAD gave Mario a full set of new controls in Super Mario 64 simply because the levels were built around exploration. I agree that both game had a radically different game design and intent. SRB2 is not Mario 64 nor Sonic Adventure, I think neither the BS and the HA are necessary to it.
It makes absolutely no sense for the thok to be removed in the first place. I find there answer to make that god awful breakfast sandwich a thing contradicts the idea of new players actually wanting to use it or even use it in the first place. Makes no sense at all. Great video btw! 👍👍
Personally, my problem is not so much with the thok but more so on SRB2's level design which doesn't lend itself for Sonic's abilities. The thok would be fine on its own if there wasn't a big gap between platforms with a death pit on the middle to punish you. As much as I love the game, it feels way too unfair at times. Inb4, "sKiLl iSSuE 🤓"
I didn't even know thokking was a problem, what? O-o I thought it was pretty standard to the game, especially for speedruns and time attacks, and man are the thoks fun to use. I don't mind the idea of giving Sonic a couple other abilities, but removing thok outright doesn't sit right with me; it's quite iconic to this game's design by now.
As an old, old, OLDBIE, and as a game designer, I'm not sure where I stand in the debate. But I am sure this video has a bit of an attitude problem, my guy...
they're wanting to make the gameplay harder through level design instead of ability clunk. devs have said that erz in 2.3 is, in their words (including the capitalization), "Actually Hard" this kind of blows the whole thing out of the water, as does the accel momentum thing. which you, refused to mention an argument to.
One MAJOR misstep in your argument. Ahem. I read manuals. Like, religiously. My dorky kid self would bring the Kirby Superstar manual to school and keep it in my desk and I would read it periodically. Or any game I was playing at that time. But I remember reading the kirby one a lot. But also yeah I love the thok, it doesn't need to be replaced. That's just silly.
The problem with the Thok is even once you master it and the game, there's literally no reason to play as Sonic. Tails and Knuckles can skip large swathes of stages and that appeals far more to those with mastery then Sonic struggling to keep up in Arid Canyon and Egg Rock. In classic 2D, the most Tails and Knuckles ability allowed was course correction back to the better routes, while Sonic maintained the better speeds, special elemental shield abilities, etc as a reward for mastery of play. Not to mention the Drop Dash once it was introduced in Mania. Sonic should reward skilled players who can play well and not make mistakes, but skilled Sonic players currently get next to nothing as a reward in SRB2. The new ability opens tons of avenues for skilled players who understand and know the level design. I can already see ways I could use the wall burst ability to skip past the first hazard room of Black Core during the Metal Sonic. I like the Thok, but its boring and makes Sonic struggle behind Tails and Knuckles, even if you've completely mastered his moveset.
Okay so I haven't played this fangame as religiously as others have, but isn't the thok just what Sonic does in Sonic Adventure when you try to homing attack when there isn't any target, like isn't it usually called the air dash? What makes the thok so different and hard to use compared to air dash? I actually liked seeing a bunch of the ideas around the breakfast sandwich, I just think it sounds worse because the people coming up with the idea seem a bit pretentious, and talking about how it's "better" than the thok and replacing the thok with the breakfast sandwich. If these two ideas could just exist together, like you could do the breakfast sandwich moves on top of doing the thok, I'd feel like I'd enjoy that more, rather than pitching it as a solution and replacing the thok. And I absolutely agree with the actual solution is to just add the homing attack, whenever I first played the game, it felt like there was supposed to be a homing attack, but instead Sonic would just do the air dash, as if he didn't find the target. But I understand there are people against the homing attack just because it's a "Modern Sonic" ability, and this is a "Classic Sonic" game. But I don't think it should be viewed in this way. Should just be viewed as a ability that fits a 3D speed-based game. Goes the other way around too, where the homing attack felt unfitting for Sonic 4, even if that had the "Modern Sonic" character, it was still a 2D game and just didn't feel right for that kind of game. Designing a modern Sonic or classic Sonic game shouldn't just be about what abilities they aren't allowed to have, it should more matter what makes a good controlling game in a 2D or 3D context
SRB2 thok gives you WAY more speed than the jump dash in the Sonic Adventure games (I'm in the habit of calling that the thok but it's not an official term,) and the jump dash loses speed, the thok does not.
all of this talk about speed as a reward just sounds ridiculous when your trying to argue in favour of the speed thok, which literally just gives you max speed in an instant.
I enjoy the Thok personally. This new move doesn't look so bad, however. An option to choose between the 2 would probably be best, but I'd argue that Thok should be the default. My question that no one seems to bring up is... Why not a homing attack? Seems like the obvious choice, and can be a Thok when no enemy is highlighted.
The thing about making Sonic accessible to new players is that Sonic is the main character, which means no matter how you present it he's going to feel like the option people are going to want to start with, unless they specifically want an easy mode like Tails. Sonic & Tails does make things easier, but it's still certainly odd to have the main move of the first character most people play be something that can easily fling you off the map. I also believe you're massively exaggerating the complexity of the new move when it comes to being understandable by players. it's a Drop Dash that can be cancelled for height or held to get a boost off/up surfaces. You could easily write a short description for that, especially when the other characters have longer texts. "Ability: [NAME]. Double jump to start charging up. •Release jump in the air to gain a boost up and forward. •Hold jump and land on the floor or a water's surface to skip off. •Move into a wall to start charging a vertical spindash. Tip: You can chain together [NAME]s after skipping off the ground!" However, I do see the argument for it being rather complicated compared to the other characters, and I get where people are coming from when they say the wall spindash is too much vertical momentum for Sonic who isn't really the character for it. If you wanna kill 2 birds with one stone, I'd say remove the wall spindash. Then it becomes essentially a cross between Thok and Dropdash, you charge up and either let go early to get a small boost up and forward, or hold it until you hit the ground for a bigger boost. A double faceted ability, much like Knuckles' gliding into climbing. Thok could also then be made an unlock for veterans who would prefer it, and the devs should make sure there's some way to still do time trials and the like with it enabled since a heavily speed based ability should have the option to compete.
I am personally under the belief that the thok should be replaced with something far more interesting than a quick airdash forward, kinda gives off the "Spam-Dash" vibes of Sonic Adventure 1. You do have very fair points though, and I respect all thok-users.
"Instead of being forced to abuse the shape of the terrain to build up speed, the thok skips straight to an incredible speed with no effort needed." so. like the spindash?
You still need to stop and charge the spindash (in the classics atleast) but i get what you mean, i think the boost wouldve been a better comparison, both the boost and the thok give instant speed and gratification
Damn, this is such a good video and is just so relatable x) It's unfortunate how 2.3 is shaping up so far with the momentum preservation changes and the new sonic ability. As someone else mentioned in the comments and as I've been saying this whole time, they could literally avoid the backlash by having an option to turn it on or off (or maybe as separate characters?) but it seems like they do not really care and i suppose we'll have to deal with it. Heck, it's also part of SRB2s identity by now. But oh well, whatever happens, I'm sure we can all find a way to enjoy this game and all the good things about it! Thanks for this video though and keep it up!
I think the thok just doesn't end up being intuitive with the game's vertical level design and punishing nature for falling off of higher paths. It makes sonic feel like he's the secret unlockable character with a high learning curve instead of the go to character when you pick up the game
15:41 Exactly! I am so tired of people saying it is. Speed is a reward, not just something you're always supposed to have. Speed is something you're supposed to master.
I’m fully on the “replace the thok” side. Face it, it’s designed for the old, flatter level design. Modern SRB2 is significantly more curved and vertical and Sonic’s extremely horizontal movements make playing him practically impossible with the current level design. I mean, SRB2 Sonic is significantly more vertically-challenged than most 3D Sonic movesets. Also, the whole “Sonic & Tails is the default” doesn’t really help since you have to be at an absolute standstill to get Tails to do his job.
I am on the side of keeping the thok and all but imma be honest, this whole thing started because some people had a major skill issue with using the thok and had the nerve to say that they want it to be changed.
this video is very well made and entertaining but it also somehow kinda hyped me up for the new move? i feel like the arguments in favor of thok here were not very clear or strong, such as when you talked about kirby air ride for a few minutes to explain deceptive simplicity and then were like 'is thok deceptively simple? not really'. there were a couple tangents like this that either didnt seem super connected to the argument or could be applied to both of the moves in some capacity. i guess i'm fine either way with which one ends up in the game. im not an srb2 expert so i could be missing some supplementary information which is making it so that i can't infer certain things from the points provided for me thok has always kind of reminded me of a boost for experts so id at least like to give the breakfast sandwich a shot. it could suck and take all the skill away from sonic or overcomplicate him but it could also open up levels in new ways and reward knowledge of the stage's layout. anyway dont cook me these are just my thoughts. very fun video regardless
The power spin seems to be more of a contextual ability than a super complicated one from what I've heard. By default it only works as a double jump(?) and drop dash, but only gets those other qualities to it when hugging a wall or when entering a body of water.
@@ItsCenrryTH thats about what it looks like to me as well. i think people are overreacting about the complexity of the move but it seems to be the primary argument for why it shouldn't be in his moveset so i figured id mention it
As someone who isn't really into the community, I really like the new abilities but I still see no reason to outright remove the thok when most stages are built around it.
I definitely agree with giving Sonic a homing attack. I wouldn't really care if they changed Sonic's ability though. Just please don't stick the thok on Metal - I love Metal's hover because its so broken.
metal is literally perfect rn,i see no reason to change him he has a hover that goes down slowly,can go into dash mode to go faster and break some walls,he's a spin character,he can go super he's my second most used char after sonic
The only problem I had with the Thok was the fact I was so used to the homing attack that I kept using it out of muscle memory at horrible times. Though that's not the fault of the thok, that was on me.
Tmw when someone with more than 1 brain cell looks at the thok debate Like fr the whole point of the thok is that it rewards you for learning the game, all the people complaining are new to the game and don't know how it works, like fr rather than complaining just LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME Also omg you made so many good points even ones i didnt think of thank you so much for making this
Remove the Thok, but don’t use the homing dash. “But what DO we use, then?” THE HOMING ATTACK. Come on, it’s been in use since 3D Blast. Honestly, why not at this point? And use the Thok for building up momentum. The Thok can stay, but merely as an airboost.
You make a lot of interesting and valid points, even if I don't quite agree with all of the presentation. The new moveset does feel more like 'Smash Bros' to me, and not something that can be discovered organically without a tutorial. One of the original design goals for Sonic on the Genesis/Megadrive was that you could 'play it with one button'. You rightly mentioned how Nintendo does this often too, like the contextual actions in Ocarina of Time. Regarding the Mario 64 points, I don't think most people ever learned the entire Mario 64 moveset, as it's not necessary to complete the game. New players choosing Sonic first is definitely, and always was, a problem. They probably should bring back an 'EASY/MEDIUM/HARD' label on the character select screen, slapping it over Tails/Knuckles/Sonic, respectively. I also feel like the wall climb move negates some of the point of playing as Tails and Knuckles. I still do not like the speed/acceleration changes made to Tails and Knuckles to bring them to parity with Sonic (they feel too heavy without the thok, IMO), but there are probably level design reasons they did it.
A lot of how we got to this point is contextual to the history of SRB2. There used to not be any slopes, so the thok was a factor in being able to go fast. The only control scheme was what is now known as 'Legacy', which allowed you to precisely steer the direction you wanted the thok to go. It could also be useful for lining up a shot on a boss and to hit him quickly during his vulnerable window. I took a lot of inspiration from Sonic 1 for level design without having slopes at my disposal, because you'll find a lot of those stages are not sloped much despite claims from Sega's marketing department in 1990.
I think the new moveset as well as accel momentum is extremely creative and I appreciate the effort that it took to implement, but like slopes, I wonder how much the levels would need to be completely recreated AGAIN to accommodate it.
I think a simple "Fix" to the Thok would be, make the Thok send you slightly upward, like a Pseudo double jump, while mantaining it's main function of propulsing you forward in the air.
I have an example on how to do that breakfast sandwich right.
1. bring it down to one move (the cloudburst, or more arbitrarily, the diagonal jump)
2. have the cloudburst's charge limit depend on how fast the player is going. The faster the player, the more the charge can grow.
3. whatever direction the player faces does not completely affect the charge or the direction the player goes(if the player moves forward and then charges backwards, the cloudburst should easily travel the player in that direction with only 80% less speed than if the player charged in the direction the player faced)
I have better examples on my channel in case you want to look at what it should be.
However, I still think the thok should not be replaced as it's still less complicated than my explanation above. My explanation at the end of the day is literally a charged diagonal thok.
@@AgustinHaacker1026You mean, like in the XMomentum mod?
Oh, Mr SSN, I always wonder, why you never used any badniks from the original series? (except the ice cap penguin but I don’t think anyone cares about it)
@@VicoX-u9m yes, exactly.
Best Solution: Give all players the option to toggle between the Classic Thok and upcoming Neo Thok for the next major SRB2 update, identical to the various Air Dash settings in Sonic P-06.
Eh that would scare new players even more
@@carlosrene9980 why tho? i think it would please both sides
@@kelvintizado2200 zoomers are too braindead too switch a basic setting
@@carlosrene9980 Make it an unlock then.
Or make it similar to SA1's airdash
Excellent video but the singular flaw in your argument was naming it the Breakfast sandwich making me inclined to want it.
Why remove it? You could so easily just make a option to disable it instead of removing it in total.
Even though, it is a good solution. But sometimes, some players would think they need more abilities to experience with, so, it would be more better including these jumping abilities:
The Insta-Shield (Sonic the Hedgehog 3)
The Drop Dash (Sonic Mania)
The double jump (Sonic R)
or even disabling the ability incase some players don't want that ability after pressing jump again.
And it would be also useful for this to be informed in the description of Sonic's character select.
Something like:
"Sonic also includes some variety for abilities, which can be changed in options. Make sure if you don't want the pre-made option, then instead go to the [Name for Sonic's ability selection] and decide which to use."
Also including a description on each selection of the air abilities like:
[Insta-shield] "The Insta-shield from Sonic the hedgehog 3 is back! If you didn't know, this gives Sonic a shield for a split-second which can avoid the damage of some hazards/enemies."
[Drop Dash] "The Drop Dash from Sonic Mania is also here! meaning you can keep your speed after jumping, just press [Jump/Spin button] while jumping and Sonic will charge a spindash in the air, which gets released on the ground, the longer you charge it in the air, the faster the spindash is."
[Double jump] "The double jump from Sonic R's also here! It's a simple ability for simple players! While Sonic is jumping, press [Jump button] again to make Sonic reach some more height, it's useful yet simple to use."
[Disabled] "By any case, if you don't feel comfortable using any of these options, you can always pick the classic no jumping ability, which is most simple yet, since most players don't want to play with the thok but don't like any of the other options, a normal simple once jump can always be your best tool. Even though the jump height is a little bit changed in case you can't reach some places you before could."
@@samuelpro4305 i wanna see a sonic fangame without the drop dash
@@randominternetman8177srb2 lol
@@randominternetman8177well current srb2
@@randominternetman8177 Sonic Time Twisted
I actually think the thok makes a lot of sense, as it's a more gradual evolution between Classic and Adventure.
Also check out the Rebound Dash
altho i agree with everything with the video, i must object with the boost formula thing, since in reality it only really applies to sonic forces, cuz in unleashed and generations, you can't just push boost to win, you're still required to react to your enviroment in order to maintain the boost, if you don't, you'l likelly either fall into a trap, die, or end up in the slower route.
Honestly, in my opinion at least, the thok wasn't actually that hard to use at all to begin with, like, yeah, it's hard to master, but it's so simple that even a kid could figure it out. My biggest gripe with the thok was that it used to be a nightmare to use it to snap back with a keyboard only control scheme (which used to be my prefered method up until recently), but the Automatic control setting fixes that.
On another note, I'm pretty sure that Kart Krew has already gotten in trouble with the community after some planned changes to SRB2 Kart's battlemode which ended up in them making an original game instead. I really hope they know what they're doing with SRB2 because it would be fucking awful if a game that has been in development for longer that I have been alive just goes out the crapper because of drama with the devs.
Easy to play, hard to master. Is that not a good thing?
@@dsdude8441 Exactly
It is tho,like I figured out how the Thok worked when I played srb2 for the first time .
I originally had a distain for Thok when I first started playing, but I grew to not mind it over time since I barely play as Sonic anyway. When I do though, it's situational at best. But I definitely like the idea of Tails Aid being activated from further away.
Yeah, the thok really is mostly unnecessary to complete the game, but if you master it you can get through obstacles easier, or just spam it to speedrun the levels. It is a tool for experienced players to hugely improve the stages' rhythm
Honestly same, I don't mind it as much since I mainly play as Metal Sonic anyway
Nearly everyone: WE NEED THOK
The option to make thok and/or "breakfast sandwich" changeable in options:
I like the breakfast sandwich actually, it looks a lot like the drop-dash only with more uses given the added dimension. Charge a drop-dash onto land, you dash forward, charge a drop-dash onto water, you skip on the water like a rock and like in the Sonic CD intro, charge a drop-dash into a wall, you dash up the wall.
Maybe if it _was_ just a more gnarly drop-dash and didn’t replace the thok, it wouldn’t get so much hate.
Funny, on my first playthrough I used the thok often to save myself from missing a jump. I didn't go "oh that's too hard to use I won't use that" I went "I need to be more careful about using this." And guess what I was already using it to skip some platforming in the first stage.
Same.
The comparison to SM64 tickles me because Sonic was always from the start specifically designed to NOT be Mario. He was designed originally to be the Mario killer, the hot new thing that would rise SEGA up to Nintendo's heights and above so they could take the crown for themselves. This never came into fruition, SEGA's own poor financial decisions would go on to lose them the console wars, but the fact remains that the old 2D games that SRB2 is trying to be a 3D version of were specifically designed to be different from Mario. Even with the transition into 3D with Sonic Adventure, they specifically didn't give Sonic a huge complex SM64 moveset. Sonic was always about keeping it simple, and letting the complexity come from player skill rather than from a broad moveset.
Trying to get all inspired by SM64 with Sonic's moveset is to repeat the mistakes of Mystic, an old community member who left a while back who used to be the head of the old STJR. I don't want to get into the whole controversy around him, but one of the things he's infamous for is holding too high of a regard for Mario design when designing for SRB2. All of those really hard, really slow platforming levels that everyone hates in the vanilla game? Yeah, he designed most of those. When he left the community and the new STJR took over, hopes were high that his attempts to turn SRB2 into basically a Mario fangame were now dead in the water and the game could head down the route of being more accurate to the source material that it's a fangame of. Instead, it seems like the new STJR are just repeating the same mistake of trying to implement too much Mario design in their Sonic game.
The thok works because it's simple to understand and has a high skill ceiling. This new move they're trying to implement probably has a low skill floor and ceiling. That is to say, while the thok isn't particularly beginner friendly, it's very rewarding for those who can get good with it. This new move on the other hand looks like it will have a much lower skill ceiling in comparison, and thus will be less rewarding for more skilled players as the price being paid for Sonic being the easiest character to use.
If they must insist on giving Sonic this new ability instead, the least they could do is give Metal Sonic the thok instead so that those of us who are good with it can still use it.
You explained what was wrong with the new ability in one comment while the guy in the video couldn't even explain it in 20 minutes. Props, man.
im not the best player ever but Damn metal sonic with thok would go hard
giving sonic FREE vertical movement is the worst thing you can possibly do ever.
This way, Tails and Knuckes become completely useless
@@ibis03 they're overpowered as is.
@@Maverick_2K4 good, they should be.
@@Maverick_2K4 easy modes tend to give players significantly more power than high difficulties, yes
I think sonic advanced 3 had a similar move but that was a bonus for partnering up sonic and knuckles. Why not make the thok a sonic alone ability the drop dash the sonic and tails ability and the wall dash for a new sonic and knuckles mode. There problem solved.
the "breakfast sandwich" caught me off guard and honestly i think it's probably the best thing you could call an attack move
Sad to see that even fangames are not safe from "a lot of new players aren't willing to put in the effort to learn a game, so let's keep everyone safe from the game's challenges."
I think a good analogy is Rainbow Road from Mario Kart, at least when it's hard. Some players hate it because they fall off easily, and so they simply prefer different tracks. There's nothing that needs to be fixed if there's people who DO love playing the track, it's the final level for a reason. Some indication that Sonic is the hardest difficulty is really a good solution, but of course appealing to random casual's complaints is an easy way to get support from people who don't play the game.
I'm part of the SRB2 speedrunning community and have been there for a long time and fundamentally agree with the thok shouldn't be removed. With that being said...
I feel like the structure of the video was maybe a little backwards. It seemed like you were coming across way too harshly to STJr and we never truly got to see what that reason was beyond "an idea was put forth" and I believe that idea that was mentioned was scrapped due to player feedback anyway. Also the idea to remove the thok was first mentioned by Mystic, one of the actual OG members. I know they've been banned now but a little bit on the fence to give the new team all this grief over an old members decision.
Also there was never any consensus for the other side of the argument. It's undeniable that the thok is hard to control for beginners and it almost does have a "don't press this button" stigma to it, but it could've easily been discussed as to why that is. Like there's no coyote time in this game which badly hurts this character when you thok onto a tiny bit of a slope, think you've landed, and the game is like "nah sorry you're in the air", something coyote time would fix.
I feel these kinds of pro points towards the thok and how the game is almost systematically against Sonic would've been far stronger than the idea that thok is fine as it is. Thok is a great ability and as a speedrunner I don't want to see it changing, but I can't pretend that it has no issues or is good for new players. With speedrunning we can make a lot of interesting skips due to jumping the frame we land, what if they gave Sonic the ability to retain a lot more of that thok speed when he lands so that new players can also make use of it? That would encourage the use of the thok so much more and the ability would be essentially unchanged for what we use the character for, appealing to both sides.
It was just a little strange to watch this video, fundamentally agree with you, have a discord that fundamentally agreed, but didn't really take well to how the message was laid out and I don't know if insulting the STJr will really create a solid foundation for any sort of communication to be had on this matter. You could've brought up another attempt that the community had to change Sonic with the MRCE mod which gave Sonic an altered thok and wall jump. Would've been interesting to hear if there were *any* ideas of a remedy for the thok that you liked over what I agree with you was a really strange looking concept from back in 2021.
any complaint about the thok is just a skill issue tbh
Agreed
Agree there's no reason to remove the thok over a simple skill issue
anyone who says thok is bad can’t aim
fr fr
I love the thok
This is a pretty interesting analysis. The breakfast sandwich/power spin is essentially a better Knuckles without integrating game knowledge. It also has that stop-and-go feel of Fang, which to me, doesn't make sense for Sonic of all characters. The thok is a skill that represents an understanding of the game's physics and geometry. Once you master the thok, it will take you to great heights, thanks to the vanilla maps implementing slopes. You can skip a large portion of a map from badnik bouncing, or cross a gap; the applications of the thok are great once you understand the maps.
Fun fact: the thok restricted your movement until touching a surface in 2.0, making you commit to your boost in speed (which was either 80 or 70 fracs I forgot). 2.1 removed that limitation, giving thokkers free movement. Pretty insightful video. Well done.
Speaking of which, Fang shouldn't even get rid of the momentum you've built up with your Jog/Run as soon as you go into the Pogo-Tail state. If anything, the top speed that you've built up to with Fang should be retained, even if you're using his Pogo-Tail.
I say this because it not only feels clunky as hell to suddenly just... Stop on a dime in mid-air and for you to suddenly build up that speed all over again, but Its also the fact that it makes no logical sense when It comes to physics.
Whoever coded Fang's Pogo-Tail like that should be smacked upside the head.
@@mirage1713 looking at the gitlab, someone has a rework that removes the momentum loss that seems likely to be implemented due to the reception
@@emperortoho Huh, If that's the case, then that's good at least.
Why not mix the both moves?
If you tap the action button, you do the thok, and if you hold the action button you do this new ability.
That would make sonic so much better and have more options than the other characters.
@@omegaaklx303 it’s just 3 moves bruh
@@omegaaklx303 just weaken the thok so it's slower, simple enough
T h i s
@@commanderdemonno9819That’s just the fire shield but with no fire resistance.
I think turning the thok into a homing attack while targeting is on is an acceptable compromise. It makes sonic easier for new players without removing the speed reward for skilled players.
that would make magnet shield less useful
@@min2793but would make gameplay easier for non fans I do remember the thok being too much to handle
@@TreadywayYT then again, he'd be just another modern sonic
but that would make fang/nack feel outclassed in terms of combat senarios. sure he can hit from farther and he still has the spring tail but the reason his pop gun attack works is due to it locking on to enemies but if sonic can do it too then what can fang offer
@@TreadywayYT well you know people also had to master instashield, we all started somewhere
Honestly I have no Idea why the homing attack wasn't implemented on top of the thok. The thok could just be the airdash as seen in the other games with the homing attack. I honestly hate taking out enemies in SRB2 without the homing attack. Also they should really add a ranking system at the end off levels like the other 3D sonic games.
There was a time when among people who liked Classic Sonic but disliked Modern Sonic (which, some of the most crucial old SRB2 devs were) had a consensus that the homing attack being "too automatic" was one of the problems. Nowadays those people tend to be more willing to acknowledge that the Homing Attack was a good solution to the problem of "precisely landing on enemies in 3D," which is why 3D Sonic fangames that aim to be more like the Classic games than the official 3D games still often include the homing attack in some form.
I actually think SRB2 doesn't need the homing attack, they managed the idea of a 3D Sonic with no homing attack (and one with smaller enemies than the official ones) pretty well, but I definitely think if the thok is "too hard" the homing attack would be a much better solution.
@@kfcnyancat i mean, there's already a homing attack in the game's code as a skinability that basically works as one would likely imagine, being a weaker thok on it's own but having the ability to y'know DO THE HOMING ATTACK
it also uncurls you for some reason
i really like this solution idea, but also @kfcnyancat makes the most historically convincing argument as to why it wasn't that way and maybe shouldn't even be that way.
regardless if this whole discussion doesn't end with some form of toggleable/customizable sonic abilities, idk if there is any one good solution.
Personally I like it better without the homing attack since it actually makes most of the enemies that don't just wander feel like more than set dressing. Like those crabs that shoot their claws out at you would be a non-issue with the homing attack but without it you have to be aware of your surroundings and use movement to get out of the way and dispatch them before they hit you.
@@commanderdemonno9819 I'm pretty sure that the homing attack your talking about is a carry over from SA Example Zone from the Final Demo era
Even as someone who sucked ass at properly using the thok most of the time, their "solution" only complicates Sonic further and makes more problems than it needs to. A better solution would be to just adjust the thok's power depending on Sonic's speed, so if doing it at a stand still it would be similar to the Air Dash in the Adventure games, and at top speed it would work like usual; I feel that new players would control that better than the Breakfast Sandwich
To me, the Thok has been the most useful move in Sonic. It works a lot like the Sonic 3's fire shield and really helps to reach places that are further. I like the thok a lot.
You make a lot of good points in this video, but I also have some criticisms.
Let me start with the good stuff.
The comparison to Air Ride was something I was not expecting, and yet it does make sense. Keeping character abilities simple, and allowing them to interact with the rest of the game in multiple different ways, is a path towards good game design.
I also appreciated the reminder of how classic Sonic gameplay works. The upper and lower paths dynamic is something that is absent from SRB2's level design, and although I partially attribute it to the difficulty of designing Sonic levels in 3D, I'm sure it can be done.
Now onto the things I think could be improved.
First of all, I believe you need a bit of an attitude adjustment. I'm aware that you're not the biggest fan of what Sonic Team Jr. is doing right now, but that doesn't give you an excuse to slander them through memes and the "nu-STJr" label.
This isn't just about giving them respect, it's about your target audience. If you want to reach out to players of SRB2, then insulting the fangame's creators will cause potential viewers to turn away.
Second, some of the information given in the video is outdated or false. I can't expect everyone to be on top of things, especially when STJr isn't the best at communicating themselves. But I know you're part of the SRB2 Discord, so you could have done some more thorough searches.
Multiple members of STJr's development team have stated that the replacement for the thok _is not set in stone,_ and that they _are_ listening to community feedback. The accel-momentum build also wasn't received well by many of the people that tested it on GitLab, and I've seen another merge request that only adds momentum to the physics and changes nothing else.
Finally, I would like to give my opinion on the thok debate. There are some things that STJr are unwilling to budge on, and replacing the thok is one of them. I get it - people don't like change. But instead of dwelling on the past, we should think about how we can change the future. Personally, I prefer building on the concept of the airdash as opposed to scrapping it for something else. Maybe let it climb walls, or turn it into the Rebound Dash from Mystic Realm Community Edition. Something that's relatively simple, doesn't rely too much on context (like in Sonic Adventure), yet is still unique.
I agree, the video makes some very interesting points, but insulting the Devs just makes it difficult to believe that any argument in this is made in good faith...
It absolutely isn’t they are just looking to be smug and look down on people, it’s filled with constant attacks at everything like Utopia. I’m certain I could bait this guy into making a five hour long video about why I’m wrong about wanting the bounce attack as a default ability in SRB2 and 3D Sonic in general.
Rambling about changes in a fairly open project like this that are easy to revert and modify just comes across as petty especially with the amount of personal attacks this video has
Classic Sonic fans literally going out of their way to invent a breakfast sandwich instead of just adding the homing attack. The homing attack is literally just the thock but better in Sonic 4. If the devs of Sonic 4 are more intelligent than you, you know you done goofed.
Agreed.
If your such a fan of options and complexity, why not make the thok and whatever replaces togglable? Like an option in the settings.
Why not make a new character?
@@valletas "but what slot will be open for said abilities?"
It doesnt seem all too complicated although an option to select the thok and the versatile sonic would be much appreciate. Whining that something is too complicated isnt a solid reason to shut something down especially considering all fo it uses the same button. Claiming ppl will just spam the button, which is LITERALLY what theyre doing with the thok
i don't know if replacing thok with a bunch of context-sensitive goodstuff is the right move, but i don't think that just slapping a "SONIC DIFFICULT" sticker on is much of a solution for the main and default character having an ability with one of the bigger skill floors. thok feels like the kind of thing you'd get on a character you unlock after a set amount of levels
I never played the game, I got no clue how hard the thok is to use, but if overshooting is that much of a problem, why not just give players a bit more control over its power by either tapping or holding the button midair? You could even go so far as to not have the tap-thok's momentum preserved as much so it mostly works only as a platforming tool while the hold-thok behaves like the original. One slow, safe version and a fast, risky one?
Since the issue is how unwieldy the thok can be to new players, why not make it so it has to be charged, kinda like the drop dash? New players who tap the button would get a small bit of speed, which is good for correcting jumps like they expect, and older players who love the insane thok would charge it up and get the normal huge burst of momentum. It'd be a little less satisfying, but since you need more time and space to charge more speed, it'd also mean it would be a little harder to just skip huge chunks of a level by just tapping a button, which could help with the level design not being made for it, too.
The "new" ability was an experiment made one day, and there was zero official confirmation that it will be the thok replacement. And I'm sincerely tired of everyone talking like "erm... why would the soyjak SRB2 devs do that????" over something that wasn't even implemented.
the guy's transphobic and says shit like "mystic was right" about the trans people in the srb2 community lmao
While I agree with most of your thoughts, I feel like the near-constant attacks on STJr is annoying and just kinda rude especially characterizing them as Soyjacks.
A half baked homming attack is still better than a burnt drop dash
7:28~7:37 There's also his *literal* Double Jump in Sonic R, as well as his Homing Attack in Generations (It's an equipable skill in the console/PC versions and permanently unlocked in the 3DS version), which brings this count to four.
Sonic also had a double jump in Sonic Blast for the game gear but like, whoever played that game
@@wobblebubbeeakasham8118 I wasn't aware of that, but I was just pointing out that he had the abilities.
The new ability is cool, but it should be streamlined a bit. Here's my idea: Remove the double jump and focus on the press and release on a surface feature. They will dash in any direction on the surface based on the direction they're holding when the button is released. Allow the player to jump off of tangentially from the surface they're dashing on. Now the player only has to think about a few things: Is this surface safe to touch? How (if at all) should I use my new All-terrain-Dash, to traverse it. The ability to jump out of the ATD dash adds a layer of complexity, problem solving and flow to a tool that's already versatile.
It's a drop dash with sauce. Easy to understand. The stop and go nature of it (with having to wait to land to do a spin dash) makes it easier for player to adjust before zooming off, which makes it much easier to use for beginners.
However, their justification for this new feature is dog shit. The thok may appear simple, but it interacts with the level design and gameplay elements in a complex ways. It's a tool with room for experimentation, not just a few specific interactions like with the new tool. Sonic should be unwieldy if someone doesn't know how to use his speed, it fits perfectly with his character. He's a wild dude, but that can get him in trouble. Immersing the players in a character is about all the sides of that character not just the ones that look good.
Keep the thok, maybe add the new ability as a new part of the spin dash.
as someone who plays srb2 circuit & speedruns the game with sonic, i think the thok is extremely fun to use and master. it should really be kept
I'm only 4 minutes into the video, but I'd like to say that I immediately understood exactly how this new ability works just by watching that short clip, and I haven't even played this fan-game. It doesn't seem nearly as complicated as you make it out to be, it's just a more versatile dropdash from Mania.
The only unintuitive bit really is the mid-air dash. Everything else is literally just a drop dash with the cool added bonus of being able to use it on walls, sort of like an extension of Lost World's wall running/wallspindash.
He definitely went into this wanting to hate the move and exaggerated its faults because of it.
Honestly as much as I like the feel of the thok, If the changes in 2.3 fuction similarly to the Multispin mod I might see it working really well.
Then again they could really just give him the homing attack on top of the thok. They actually feel good to use in SRB2 since you use the momentum from the attack instead of just awkwardly losing most momentum like in most 3D Sonic games
Reference to "Possible" new ability: Sonic Mania (Just wanted to point this out beside the double and wall spin dash)
I have been outdated on Srb2 updates for a while since Android port was deprecated, learnt that they wanted to change Sonic but haven't seen anything else. don't know if there are new words on the Sandwich ability since the release of this video, but I pretty much agree with the video. While I understand the dev's vision, this feels like when Majora Mask 3D reworked Zora and Deku abilities completly, while it sounds good on dev's perspective, returning players will know all of the issues with it and throw shit on the newer version forever, and new players will find problems on the downgraded abilites and think it is their problem or their controller's problem.
The best of this is that Sega has already done part of what I am seeing with the Breakfast Sandwich, and I can't believe I think they did better. Climbing up walls, double jump? sounds like Sonic Lost World to me. How is it better? because it doesn't replace Sonic's main abilities, It's a different button that triggers the running on walls. I don't understand why moving it to 1 button is benefitial, when you think about jumping, you press a button to jump, you don't think about the same button to run under certain conditions, or bounce on the water, which spindash was already capable of doing so. Imagine playing Sonic frontiers with all buttons mapped to 1.
In the end I see having all of these as 1 ability button, absurd.
Why not:
- Press Spindash button while on air to guarantee bouncing on water
- Keep running at enough speed towards a wall to climb it, no more buttons than fordward (or angled input) needed.
- Double jump just when you want to double jump, without overwriting if you want to run on a wall, gain more control over what you want to do.
This would make Sonic feel more like Sonic and easier to learn for newcommers
This also would help towards other characters being able to obtain part of these abilities (I don't see why Sonic would be able to bounce on the water while any other character wouldn't) and even WAD characters that clearly could do part of the same moveset (Imagine Espio not being able to run on walls)
Another example would be the recently released game, Penny's Big Breakaway. You have 1 button to perform a million moves, while all of them are related to the yo-yo, starting the game is horrible, you have to play a lot to defend yourself and even more to master it, with what you can do and how to do it, and if you get nervious, Game Over because you messed up what you wanted to do because everything is on one button. Requires quite a lot of skill. Now add SRB2's netplay, all of this, with input delay?
This would be like remaking Sonic 1 but removing the ability to press down to spindash. Updating a character, specially Sonic, shouldn't be about changing the whole character, should be about adding more to it.
And Team Jr, if you simply love chaos and don't want to rethink on all the controversy, add a toggle, or a character that resembles the original SRB2 Sonic.
On a side note, Amy will become even more useless now? I love to main her but I don't see a world where she fits if literally everyone can fly around except her. Unless Team Junior says "Tails is so OP let's make him fly for 2 seconds only" and "Knuckles shouldn't climb these walls because it would be too easy"... wait a moment they already did the last one... WHICH WOULD almost for sure apply for Sonic's climbing too, making his ability pointless in late levels.
I don't understand the point on over complicating a fan game that should reunite Sonic fans. Anyways, would love to see if Team Jr ever makes their own proper IP game, because there they have all the power to invent whatever they want with their own characters and it will probably be a Goty. Just don't make us have a total different experience with Sonic than literally everything else in the world. We should be able to carry over what Sonic, Tails and Knuckles do from the main games, to other fan games and SRB2, so we only have to get used to the engine.
I first started playing SRB2 about two years ago and I never had a problem with the thok. Personally what turned me off the game the most was the sudden difficulty spike and being funnelled into routes with bottom-less pits. I also feel like Tails and Knuckles are so powerful by comparison that they don't really ease you into the game and more that they let you skip it entirely. Honestly the best solution is to probably just ease up on the bottomless pits, remove the life system or both.
If I were to change the thok and I'd probably add a tiny double jump if you press the jump button in the middle of a thok. It gives you a small amount of leeway if you over or undershoot a thok, but comes at the cost of losing momentum. It also doesn't completely remove one of the shields or severely nerfs a movement option whenever there's an enemy or item box nearby.
My main problem is...there is just too much momentum to anything you do. Too slow to accelerate, too slow to come to a halt when needed. The thok merely amplifies this problem and isn't the core issue most people have with the game.
I think they need to either rework the entire physics engine to accomodate for the 'weird' level design we have now or overhaul the level design completely so that stages aren't just a mess of blocks that are hard to diffirentiate and navigate around and make consistenly decent levels. I started playing it around 2008-2009 and every time I decide to go back to it - it's like I'm playing a completely different game and it's getting harder with each new interation. Why did they go the route of intricate platforming when the base physics aren't that great for it? I have zero clue.
honestly my hottake is that the issues with the thok stem less from the move itself, but rather how level design actively punishes new players for using it past zone 3 with all of the instant kill death planes & ring destroying floor hazards n whatnot. while I understand what they were doing with castle eggman & beyond, it's still just a random gigantic leap in diffuculty that I always dread having to playthrough ESPECIALLY as a character who doesn't have any good options for upwards movement
also from the little I've used it the rebound dash is just better anyways, since it keeps the core essence of the thok while giving sonic some much needed verticality lol
Playing with controller here and the SA Sonic feels the best.
SRB2 needs a total redesign of all its levels, and a tester that's not a professional speedrunner.
isn't that how testing works?i don't have experience with game design,but shouldn't game devs test the game with people that aren't that experienced in video games?just curious
@@joelandrex17 That's how I thought too.
The way you think about the Power Spin (I've heard it called this in the forums) as an overly complex swiss army knife is funny, I didn't see it like that at all. AFAIK the Power Spin is just meant to be an ability Sonic can use contextually. An easy description of it is that it does something different on land, sea, air and cliffsides. We even already have another character that has a contextual ability, Knuckles. On the land he spins, in the air or in water he glides and on cliffsides he climbs, is it that much more complicated than Sonic's Power Spin idea?
Also, for an idea that replaces the Thok but doesn't go as far we already have a great one; Krabs' Rebound Dash. It's like a better Thok in every way with added utility that help the player recover missed platforms with the wall bounce, rewards with more route options based on skill and creativity and has better aesthetics in general. We can definitely do better than the Thok imo.
My issue with the thok was that it made the other characters feel a lot slower in comparison, but the thing is that Sonic needs something to emphasize that he is the fastest one, of course. I just think that it invalidates other characters/makes them feel like the easy mode. It also invalidates the need to build momentum, because you can use it and then be at max run speed
thok:
- simple to understand
- may lead to deaths via poor timing
- too much speed via acceleration
new ability:
- jack of all traits, master of none
- will most likely make people die more often when they want to do X but end up doing Y
- much more difficult to master and even explain
no idea why they didnt just do a simple double jump (akin to sonic r) or something like the drop dash tbh, its overcomplicating for the sakes of overcomplicating
Excellent video! I can't believe the srb2 devs looked at the breakfast sandwich and thought "Yes, THIS is what srb2 needs"
Why question is, WHY CREATE SOMETHING MORE COMPLICATRD THAN THR THOK!? Like seriously, I don't mind things like rebound dash and other sonic changing things, but the thok is a great to give a good way to start up your momentum in these levels. Also, why in the WORLD would you remove such a basic ability for something more "intuitive". The "average player" doesnt need to learn THIS MUCH STUFF FOR ONE CHARACTER. Sonic should be used for horizontal movement, not vertical.
Mania allows to change sonics ability, why remove the moves???? Especially when it's been there for 23 years I am the same as you I was born in 1999 they had itthesame since a month after I was born😢
This video honestly feels more like "Why the new move is bad" instead of "Why the Speed Thok is good".
While I do not like how the new move looks, I do think the Thok needs a rework, even if I myself love the move. Overall I don't think this video does a very good job at saying the thok isn't that bad like the thumbnail says, it more so feels like "Why the thok is the lesser evil".
On that note, showing Unleashed footage when talking about why instant speed is bad just doesn't feel right to me when that game's day levels are generally considered to be the boost formula actually done right.
Also, I disagree on the whole "speed is a reward" thing but that's a whole another topic that would take me hours to touch upon.
I definitely agree with the point you're making, but I just can't find myself agreeing with your reasoning for it very often.
Really glad we have people like you that put your reputation on the line to being some sense in. Keep up the great work.
Reputation on the line? How is he putting his reputation on the line by talking about the SRB2 thok
@@Roosader you have NO idea of how bad the srb2 community is if you’re saying this
@@emperortoho i truly have no idea
I'm also very curious
I'm mixed on the thok tbh. On one hand, Sonic was never the "hard mode" character to play as in the classic Sonic games, so it doesn't make sense for his base ability to be so hard to control. On the other hand, the thok has a really high skill ceiling and can be really fun to master. As someone who's not SUPER into this game, I see the Homing Attack as a good compromise, as it lowers the skill floor, while mostly retaining the skill ceiling. Ideally, the Homing Attack by default with an option to toggle into classic thok would probably work best, as opposed to the Breakfast Sandwich. That being said, I think the Breakfast Sandwich is also a cool move that just works differently depending on context, which isn't something we've never seen before. I think it's intuitive enough and does lead to experimentation, and potentially has just as high a skill ceiling as the thok, but with a much lower skill floor. Whatever happens, I think there's a lot of elitism regarding this game, and more accessibility on the main title character is generally a good thing.
why is everyone saying this new move is "too complicated" it's just a contextual move... like... what is so complicated about that? it's like a drop dash that you can release midair or even on a wall itself, it seems pretty simple to me. I love the Thok but this new move actually looks cool.
I do agree with this video. While i did kind of understand their mindsets when going over why the thok could be replaced, I actually got pretty annoyed when they said it wasnt fun and rewarding. There isnt a need to make Sonic the most beginner friendly character, as that's Tails's job. If new players dont want to fly over the levels, Knuckles serves as a good middle ground, as he doesn't just ignore platforming altogether, but also even has his own dedicated sections designed around his specific moveset. While i understand that the thok may conflict with the new momentum based physics (which i think look amazing), It is definitely a rewarding move to master. Because of the way physics worked when the thok was made, it didnt take long for Sonic to reach his ground speed cap, but in the air, momentum had no limit. The thok discourages beginners from using it recklessly, while encouraging them to maintain that aerial momentum. I had a hard time using it until i saw the way other people used it. Upon experimentation, I learned that the risk is the commitment to the direction you send yourself, but it rewards you with constant speed and even allows you to save yourself from falling if you're precise. If the thok doesnt work with the new direction they're taking the project, they need to make a move that meshes well with that design while maintaining the amount of skill that it took to master the thok. A Swiss army knive of a move that invalidates most of the platforming is the wrong answer.
@@dakotaflare6048 if I wrote like this back in high-school, I would have aced every essay assignment lmao
my only problem with the thok is that i thought it was a homing attack for the longest time, so i would thok into enemies expecting to lock on only to go flying, but that might just be me not being able to read
finally, a correct opinion about this. got banned from srb2 discord in a discussion about this. thok should be a skillful move. insta-shield wasn't user friendly in sonic 3, and nobody wants to replace that with anything. the new sandwich thing or whatever you called it looks more like a modded game. i agree on everything with you except the pizza tower bosses are easy and the homing attack. instead of a homing attack, autobrake should just make the thok slow down mid-air a couple milliseconds after thokking. since only noobs and android players play this game with autobrake then it will assist them with not overshooting while actual players can use it like how it was meant to be. the new dev team has been weird. change is alright and all, but it seems like they are taking it in an odd direction. i have no idea what happened to the majority of the old dev team, and alot of the judges on the mb have been replaced by some randos who allow anything through. if this sandwich mode goes through, my hatred for the gamebanana-mod-creating side of the playerbase that has fluctuated ever since the release of 2.2 will only increase.
people are getting banned for having their opinions on the thok? 😭
@@MACHOLORIf I had to make an educated guess, Its because the devs have argued with people over their agenda of not having the Thok anymore over the years, they figure that banning people off the Message Board is the best option.
As long as they can get people to shut up about it, they don't care.
@@mirage1713 that is probably the worse way to handle something like that. Being honest. I don't think SRB2 is in the right hands rn.
@@MACHOLOR It hasn't been in the right hands for quite sometime, actually.
As somebody who has played the Adventure games before SRB2, I definitely prefer Sonic's double jump action to be a homing attack, but that's probably because I got used to it so much. I personally do not hate the Thok, but I certainly do not care for it either.
To describe my experience with the game a bit further: when I first started playing SRB2, it felt to me that the game was "slippery", especially when playing with a controller. After my struggling through the first run of the game, a friend of mine has recommended me the Adventure Sonic mod, and after installing it, it felt much more comfortable to play, again, probably due to my existing playing habits and muscle memory built up from SA1 and SA2.
@@azzypics That's the reason why It felt slippery right there, you were using a controller. SRB2 Is a game that's intended for you to use your Keyboard, since Its made using the DOOM Legacy engine. You kind of have to treat It In a way that's closer to DOOM In terms of how you control the characters.
@@mirage1713 Yeah, I realized that after spending some time with the game. It's a great thing that the game is so deeply customizable with mods that everyone can have the experience they want.
The Thok is so damn good and satisfying to use. It isn’t required once in the entire game and is used entirely as the speed as a reward thing.
My personal suggestion would be to add a difficulty indicator to each character on the main screen, sonic and tails being 2 stars, tails being 1 star, knuckles being 2/3 stars, and Sonic standalone being 4.
I’m not playing 2.3 if they end up replacing the Thok.
I've been playing SRB2 since 2001. I honestly don't like the Thok very much, as it's a pain in the ass to kill enemies with, but I also don't care for the solution. I think just making it a homing attack when close to an enemy, and leaving it as-is otherwise is probably the best way to go. Basically like you suggested. Maybe with the addition of a drop dash.
Though, I have to say... what's up with the portraying the devs as soyjaks? Could have got your point across without the passive-aggressive ad-hominem bullshit.
homing attack is just the magnet shield
Hey Striker do you still have files from old versions with addons?
The new move just kinda seems like an overdesigned dropdash, which is fine. Not a massive fan of the thok, like, at that point, just give me a homing attack or air boost, although it's also fine? Not my preference but I don't hate it.
Honestly I feel like one of the best solutions for making the Thok a better mobility tool is giving it just a tiny bit of height and making it momentum-based. MCSonic does this, and it's great IMO, it feels a lot more natural and gives Sonic a reason to build up speed while also giving him a tool to correct jumps without overshooting. No need to replace it, just make it more versatile.
5:55
Wait so you just explained how the only 2 buttons in the game change functionality depending on context, which was your argument against the new move
That was my argument against the "simplicity insults ur intelligence >:((((" statement.
Pay attention.
@@Sandwichface and i thought the srb2 discord is passive aggressive!
The weirdest thing is that they cant see that tails is the beginner character. He literally flies over the platforms in this platforming game. I remember playing srb2 with some friends and all of us getting a game over many times. we were noobs, but a few of us picked tails/knuckles, and the rest just started moving carefully and actually learning the game's physics. Now we can all essentially speedrun the game as sonic because we learned the game. nobody should be a master on their first playthrough. The thok is close to if not the perfect tool for sonic in a mouse-and-keyboard sonic game.
And dont get me started on the homing dash. Its a tool for noobs to again, skip platforming. The thok is just so much better at being a tool for traversal as youre fully in control of sonic when you thok. When you homing dash not only is player agency stripped for the brief moment you attack an enemy, it also slows down your character. I remember playing sonic heroes and all I did was mash jump for every situation which makes the gameplay uninteresting as that becomes the only movement tool.
I do agree with the sediment that the thok is better for this game than the Homing Attack, but I have to point out your sonic heroes point. If you're mashing Homing Attack on enemies and getting bored by its mindlessness, that's kind of your fault, as that's not hoe it's meant to be played. The Homing Attack is mainly for chains of aerial enemies. Any enemies that take more than one hit to kill with the Homing Attack should probably be dealt with by another character. Maybe go back to the game and try to learn it better😊. When I mastered the game, it became my second favorite in the whole series.
homing attack is a part of the magnet shield
the initial criticism is interesting to me, I actually find the thok to be boring more than anything else. Why should we have a button to gain speed that has no time investment? There's basically no downside to doing it in most areas once you can aim and its not actually that difficult.
sonic team gave sonic a homing attack in adventure out of necessity for a reason, not a breakfast sandwich.
Whereas Nintendo EAD gave Mario a full set of new controls in Super Mario 64 simply because the levels were built around exploration.
I agree that both game had a radically different game design and intent.
SRB2 is not Mario 64 nor Sonic Adventure, I think neither the BS and the HA are necessary to it.
simple solution: make it a damn toggle
It makes absolutely no sense for the thok to be removed in the first place.
I find there answer to make that god awful breakfast sandwich a thing contradicts the idea of new players actually wanting to use it or even use it in the first place.
Makes no sense at all.
Great video btw! 👍👍
Personally, my problem is not so much with the thok but more so on SRB2's level design which doesn't lend itself for Sonic's abilities. The thok would be fine on its own if there wasn't a big gap between platforms with a death pit on the middle to punish you. As much as I love the game, it feels way too unfair at times.
Inb4, "sKiLl iSSuE 🤓"
I didn't even know thokking was a problem, what? O-o I thought it was pretty standard to the game, especially for speedruns and time attacks, and man are the thoks fun to use. I don't mind the idea of giving Sonic a couple other abilities, but removing thok outright doesn't sit right with me; it's quite iconic to this game's design by now.
As an old, old, OLDBIE, and as a game designer, I'm not sure where I stand in the debate. But I am sure this video has a bit of an attitude problem, my guy...
they're wanting to make the gameplay harder through level design instead of ability clunk. devs have said that erz in 2.3 is, in their words (including the capitalization), "Actually Hard"
this kind of blows the whole thing out of the water, as does the accel momentum thing. which you, refused to mention an argument to.
One MAJOR misstep in your argument. Ahem.
I read manuals. Like, religiously. My dorky kid self would bring the Kirby Superstar manual to school and keep it in my desk and I would read it periodically. Or any game I was playing at that time. But I remember reading the kirby one a lot.
But also yeah I love the thok, it doesn't need to be replaced. That's just silly.
The problem with the Thok is even once you master it and the game, there's literally no reason to play as Sonic. Tails and Knuckles can skip large swathes of stages and that appeals far more to those with mastery then Sonic struggling to keep up in Arid Canyon and Egg Rock. In classic 2D, the most Tails and Knuckles ability allowed was course correction back to the better routes, while Sonic maintained the better speeds, special elemental shield abilities, etc as a reward for mastery of play. Not to mention the Drop Dash once it was introduced in Mania. Sonic should reward skilled players who can play well and not make mistakes, but skilled Sonic players currently get next to nothing as a reward in SRB2.
The new ability opens tons of avenues for skilled players who understand and know the level design. I can already see ways I could use the wall burst ability to skip past the first hazard room of Black Core during the Metal Sonic. I like the Thok, but its boring and makes Sonic struggle behind Tails and Knuckles, even if you've completely mastered his moveset.
Okay so I haven't played this fangame as religiously as others have, but isn't the thok just what Sonic does in Sonic Adventure when you try to homing attack when there isn't any target, like isn't it usually called the air dash? What makes the thok so different and hard to use compared to air dash?
I actually liked seeing a bunch of the ideas around the breakfast sandwich, I just think it sounds worse because the people coming up with the idea seem a bit pretentious, and talking about how it's "better" than the thok and replacing the thok with the breakfast sandwich. If these two ideas could just exist together, like you could do the breakfast sandwich moves on top of doing the thok, I'd feel like I'd enjoy that more, rather than pitching it as a solution and replacing the thok.
And I absolutely agree with the actual solution is to just add the homing attack, whenever I first played the game, it felt like there was supposed to be a homing attack, but instead Sonic would just do the air dash, as if he didn't find the target. But I understand there are people against the homing attack just because it's a "Modern Sonic" ability, and this is a "Classic Sonic" game. But I don't think it should be viewed in this way. Should just be viewed as a ability that fits a 3D speed-based game. Goes the other way around too, where the homing attack felt unfitting for Sonic 4, even if that had the "Modern Sonic" character, it was still a 2D game and just didn't feel right for that kind of game. Designing a modern Sonic or classic Sonic game shouldn't just be about what abilities they aren't allowed to have, it should more matter what makes a good controlling game in a 2D or 3D context
SRB2 thok gives you WAY more speed than the jump dash in the Sonic Adventure games (I'm in the habit of calling that the thok but it's not an official term,) and the jump dash loses speed, the thok does not.
tap it to do a double jump, hold it till you reach the ground to do a drop dash. is that really too complex for you to understand?
all of this talk about speed as a reward just sounds ridiculous when your trying to argue in favour of the speed thok, which literally just gives you max speed in an instant.
I enjoy the Thok personally. This new move doesn't look so bad, however. An option to choose between the 2 would probably be best, but I'd argue that Thok should be the default.
My question that no one seems to bring up is... Why not a homing attack? Seems like the obvious choice, and can be a Thok when no enemy is highlighted.
The thing about making Sonic accessible to new players is that Sonic is the main character, which means no matter how you present it he's going to feel like the option people are going to want to start with, unless they specifically want an easy mode like Tails. Sonic & Tails does make things easier, but it's still certainly odd to have the main move of the first character most people play be something that can easily fling you off the map.
I also believe you're massively exaggerating the complexity of the new move when it comes to being understandable by players. it's a Drop Dash that can be cancelled for height or held to get a boost off/up surfaces. You could easily write a short description for that, especially when the other characters have longer texts.
"Ability: [NAME].
Double jump to start charging up.
•Release jump in the air to gain a boost up and forward.
•Hold jump and land on the floor or a water's surface to skip off.
•Move into a wall to start charging a vertical spindash.
Tip: You can chain together [NAME]s after skipping off the ground!"
However, I do see the argument for it being rather complicated compared to the other characters, and I get where people are coming from when they say the wall spindash is too much vertical momentum for Sonic who isn't really the character for it. If you wanna kill 2 birds with one stone, I'd say remove the wall spindash. Then it becomes essentially a cross between Thok and Dropdash, you charge up and either let go early to get a small boost up and forward, or hold it until you hit the ground for a bigger boost. A double faceted ability, much like Knuckles' gliding into climbing.
Thok could also then be made an unlock for veterans who would prefer it, and the devs should make sure there's some way to still do time trials and the like with it enabled since a heavily speed based ability should have the option to compete.
this was a really misguided video, taking some screenshots and discussions out of context from over a year ago.
I am personally under the belief that the thok should be replaced with something far more interesting than a quick airdash forward, kinda gives off the "Spam-Dash" vibes of Sonic Adventure 1. You do have very fair points though, and I respect all thok-users.
"Instead of being forced to abuse the shape of the terrain to build up speed, the thok skips straight to an incredible speed with no effort needed."
so. like the spindash?
You still need to stop and charge the spindash (in the classics atleast) but i get what you mean, i think the boost wouldve been a better comparison, both the boost and the thok give instant speed and gratification
Damn, this is such a good video and is just so relatable x)
It's unfortunate how 2.3 is shaping up so far with the momentum preservation changes and the new sonic ability.
As someone else mentioned in the comments and as I've been saying this whole time, they could literally avoid the backlash by having an option to turn it on or off (or maybe as separate characters?) but it seems like they do not really care and i suppose we'll have to deal with it.
Heck, it's also part of SRB2s identity by now.
But oh well, whatever happens, I'm sure we can all find a way to enjoy this game and all the good things about it!
Thanks for this video though and keep it up!
My opinion on this is personally, thok definetly needs work, however the current replacement feels like a mod character.
I think the thok just doesn't end up being intuitive with the game's vertical level design and punishing nature for falling off of higher paths. It makes sonic feel like he's the secret unlockable character with a high learning curve instead of the go to character when you pick up the game
15:41 Exactly! I am so tired of people saying it is. Speed is a reward, not just something you're always supposed to have. Speed is something you're supposed to master.
I’m fully on the “replace the thok” side. Face it, it’s designed for the old, flatter level design. Modern SRB2 is significantly more curved and vertical and Sonic’s extremely horizontal movements make playing him practically impossible with the current level design. I mean, SRB2 Sonic is significantly more vertically-challenged than most 3D Sonic movesets.
Also, the whole “Sonic & Tails is the default” doesn’t really help since you have to be at an absolute standstill to get Tails to do his job.
omg using a vertical level design with a character that moves mainly horizontally...HMMM WONDER WHERE IVE SEEN THAT BEFORE
Thok is the core of slope jumping, SRB2's second most fun ability right before badnik bouncing.
How about both? Maybe as an additional ability or unlockable replace?
to everyone that says drop dash in srb2 doesn't work let me reminid you that drrop dash in sonic frontiers exists
i think the issue starts with sonic not being good for new players, you know, in the sonic game.
I am on the side of keeping the thok and all but imma be honest, this whole thing started because some people had a major skill issue with using the thok and had the nerve to say that they want it to be changed.
I like sonic's new ability for all the opposite reasons as STJR
this video is very well made and entertaining but it also somehow kinda hyped me up for the new move? i feel like the arguments in favor of thok here were not very clear or strong, such as when you talked about kirby air ride for a few minutes to explain deceptive simplicity and then were like 'is thok deceptively simple? not really'. there were a couple tangents like this that either didnt seem super connected to the argument or could be applied to both of the moves in some capacity.
i guess i'm fine either way with which one ends up in the game. im not an srb2 expert so i could be missing some supplementary information which is making it so that i can't infer certain things from the points provided
for me thok has always kind of reminded me of a boost for experts so id at least like to give the breakfast sandwich a shot. it could suck and take all the skill away from sonic or overcomplicate him but it could also open up levels in new ways and reward knowledge of the stage's layout.
anyway dont cook me these are just my thoughts. very fun video regardless
The power spin seems to be more of a contextual ability than a super complicated one from what I've heard. By default it only works as a double jump(?) and drop dash, but only gets those other qualities to it when hugging a wall or when entering a body of water.
@@ItsCenrryTH thats about what it looks like to me as well. i think people are overreacting about the complexity of the move but it seems to be the primary argument for why it shouldn't be in his moveset so i figured id mention it
Why not just use the drop dash? It’s been used in mania and origins already so it’d make sonic closer to feeling like the classics.
As someone who isn't really into the community, I really like the new abilities but I still see no reason to outright remove the thok when most stages are built around it.
I definitely agree with giving Sonic a homing attack. I wouldn't really care if they changed Sonic's ability though. Just please don't stick the thok on Metal - I love Metal's hover because its so broken.
metal is literally perfect rn,i see no reason to change him
he has a hover that goes down slowly,can go into dash mode to go faster and break some walls,he's a spin character,he can go super
he's my second most used char after sonic
Metal Sonic my beloved. If they completely get rid of Hover, I'm going to riot.
The only problem I had with the Thok was the fact I was so used to the homing attack that I kept using it out of muscle memory at horrible times. Though that's not the fault of the thok, that was on me.
I love the thok and the new complex ability isnt so bad so I feel as if it should just be a toggle to use on or another.
Edit: 200th sub🎉
Tmw when someone with more than 1 brain cell looks at the thok debate
Like fr the whole point of the thok is that it rewards you for learning the game, all the people complaining are new to the game and don't know how it works, like fr rather than complaining just LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME
Also omg you made so many good points even ones i didnt think of thank you so much for making this
Remove the Thok, but don’t use the homing dash.
“But what DO we use, then?”
THE HOMING ATTACK. Come on, it’s been in use since 3D Blast. Honestly, why not at this point? And use the Thok for building up momentum. The Thok can stay, but merely as an airboost.
video just feels very ... nostalgia based and hypocritical, could barely stomach it