"You may join the Council, but we do not grant you the rank of master." "Dude, you knighted me days after I slaughtered a whole village." "Take a seat."
@@saberiandream316 And why her being knocked unconscious so much (at least in earlier seasons) has no real or at least on-screen repercussions. And anyone dismisses this as, "bottom of the barrel" doesn't get the point of bad writing here, or anywhere else in the show. :/
@@saberiandream316 @Saberian Dream (disclaimer overall I prefer the old EU just not the Clone wars era) first 2 sentences are PR B.S. Time travel is Rebels fault not TCW. The videos argument is flawed. of course the kaminoans say clones are blindly obeying orders because they want the Republic sold on their products. Think of it like this, a shopkeeper says a phone can last for ever but of course it doesn't because there is no such thing as a perfect product they are just trying to make it look that way. As for Ashoka aside from Mara Jade she is the greatest female character in fiction, she makes Anakin's fault believable when she leaves the order. As for the clones they are actual people in the Clone wars show. Why do some commit treason: mutations like cut, and observations like slick, who betrayed the Republic because he learnt the truth, check out Geetslys video on this if you don't believe me. Whereas the Clones in the old EU, I don't care about them because they are faceless throw away heroes, lazy lazy lazy! Fives, Echo, Rex, Jesse and Kix have development. They show independence on Umbara because they are not perfect products or products, Fives says it outright and that's when they start showing independence, and I take Fives' word over the greedy shopkeepers on Kamino. As for the chips, George didn't have them in revenge of the Sith because he didn't have time, and if you finally watched the final season of the show like you and your blind nostalgia driven fanboys say, you would learn that the chips don't drive the clones insane (that was caused by the malfunction of the chip in season 6), in fact they are just a safeguard for loose canons like say Rex and Fives. Also it is never said that order 66 is the only order so that is invalid. Order 66 in the EU is even lazier then the Clones writing. I mean a coded message LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZYBRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but clearly I cannot teach you this through these links geetslys can: th-cam.com/video/e6pgwNDHd3M/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/_6m6hy4z07g/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/J4AXQLjj-zE/w-d-xo.html
@Ellisar Atranimus (disclaimer overall I prefer the old EU just not the Clone wars era and TCW is not perfect) first 2 sentences are PR B.S. Time travel is Rebels fault not TCW. The videos argument is flawed. of course the kaminoans say clones are blindly obeying orders because they want the Republic sold on their products. Think of it like this, a shopkeeper says a phone can last for ever but of course it doesn't because there is no such thing as a perfect product they are just trying to make it look that way. As for Ashoka aside from Mara Jade she is the greatest female character in fiction, she makes Anakin's fault believable when she leaves the order. As for the clones they are actual people in the Clone wars show. Why do some commit treason: mutations like cut, and observations like slick, who betrayed the Republic because he learnt the truth, check out Geetslys video on this if you don't believe me. Whereas the Clones in the old EU, I don't care about them because they are faceless throw away heroes, lazy lazy lazy! Fives, Echo, Rex, Jesse and Kix have development. They show independence on Umbara because they are not perfect products or products, Fives says it outright and that's when they start showing independence, and I take Fives' word over the greedy shopkeepers on Kamino. As for the chips, George didn't have them in revenge of the Sith because he didn't have time, and if you finally watched the final season of the show like you and your blind nostalgia driven fanboys say, you would learn that the chips don't drive the clones insane (that was caused by the malfunction of the chip in season 6), in fact they are just a safeguard for loose canons like say Rex and Fives. Also it is never said that order 66 is the only order so that is invalid. Order 66 in the EU is even lazier then the Clones writing. I mean a coded message LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZYBRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but clearly I cannot teach you this through these links geetslys can: th-cam.com/video/e6pgwNDHd3M/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/_6m6hy4z07g/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/J4AXQLjj-zE/w-d-xo.html
I was one of those people who love TCW but hate the current canon and desperately tried to fit TCW into Legends but after watching your videos i came to the painful realization that it's simply impossible.
Saberian Dream You know what's. That sounds like a good idea. Pure legends timeline: Excludes TCW and it's tie ins, including its legends comics, games, and books. Canon timeline: TCW and it's tie in material are 100% canon. Third party canon: Legends is canon but the clone wars multimedia project is not and is replaced by TCW and its legends tie ins entirely (with some exceptions), disregarding It's Disney canon tie ins.
You can fit bits and pieces of it in. You just have to dial back several bits of it. and kinda play pick-and-choose. Hell I'll even steal a few things from full Disney canon here and there if I like a ship design or trooper armor or even a planet.
As far as I can understand it, there should be/are basically 2 and 1/2 canons/timelines: 1. The original Expanded Universe/ 'Legends' canon 2. The Disney canon 3. The 'new', post-2008, Dave Filoni created, Clone Wars movie, TV show, & related content 'canon'. Dave Filoni's Clone Wars (I refuse to consider it to be truly George Lucas' project, since he basically rubber-stamped what Filoni & co. already created) should be only considered 1/2 of a canon / semi-complete canon because it only covers the Clone Wars era, while simultaneously having ties to & contradicting the other 2 canon timelines. I personally consider Legends/E.U. to be the true, original canon; considering that the way Disney is going, they are starting to let Filoni muck-up their own pre-manufactured, corporate-created canon. Also, despite what younger generations of Star Wars fans & those who have accepted the new canon(s) may think, George Lucas did have more of a hands-on, collaborative approach with other content creators in the old, pre-2008 E.U. . I can't really think of any other franchises (other than possibly Star Trek & Dr. Who) where this much conscious effort was made for fans & by fans to participate in a grand narrative of such size and scope to create a coherent multi-faceted tale. Previously this was relegated to only novels or comic series alone being made coherent within a given media franchise. It is my firm conviction that without the trailblazing work the Star Wars E.U. undertook, that modern-day E.U.-style franchises such as Halo, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, D.C. Universe, many Anime-based multimedia projects, etc. would not even have been made possible.
I agree that The Clone Wars shouldn’t be considered part of Legends. Too many contradictions and no retcons to explain them, like what happened to explain the contradictions between the prequels and the Thrawn trilogy. I always considered the original Clone Wars to be Legends, even though it doesn’t perfectly fit in either. It fits in better than the 2008 series, anyway.
but lucasfilm cleverly explained the cotradictions between the Thrawn bokks and Prequels so therr technically are no contradictions between then today.
I like the show, and I think it does enough good that between the retcons introduced in later EU works (including in post-RotJ works) and some creative headcanon, it's worth being included. And I didn't grow up with the show. I saw the 2008 movie in theaters when I was in college, which put me off from watching the series until two years ago. And by then, the Disney timeline made it look bloody brilliant and a perfect fit with old Star Wars by comparison. Yeah, it inherently doesn't fit with the Old EU, but I can put in the mental work without too much trouble. Unlike just about everything made by Disney. Like Rebels. Or the Sequels. Or Solo.
Regardless, her exit from the role of "Dooku's Chief Dark Acolyte" (in TCW she's basically the only one, we don't see anyone like Tol Skorr, Sora Bulq, Kadrian Sey, Sev'rance Tann or any of his other Acolytes in the show) seemed extremely abrupt and out of no where. That's the sense I was trying to convey.
What's funny is originally it was his idea in legends and in the new canon he was ordered to kill her for literally no reason. Studious said she was a threat but he knew he would already abandon Dooku by the end of the war so there is no point in him caring about the puppet of his own puppet. He simply had no reason to order her death other than to make a ventress centered ark.
The EU always remained somewhat consistent through careful, strategically-placed retcons. The problem with TCW isn't that it broke canon, but that it broke canon beyond its capacity for self-repair.
@@FMK03 Plenty of things in the EU violated parts of canon, which is why the tier system worked so well. It let us filter out the more lore-breaking parts of the EU. Where TCW fucked things up was when it was placed above C-Canon. If it had been lower-tier, we might not even be having this conversation.
@@jaffarebellion292 Yes, I'm well aware of the lower tiers of canon within the EU. I'm saying TCW doesn't have any of that and it not only broke canon when it comes to the EU, but also the canon of the films.
@@FMK03 Fair enough. I do still think the EU can survive a lot of canon-breaking. It just couldn't survive said canon being broken by a nuke dropped right over the Clone Wars MMP. If it had been lower-tier, the MMP would've taken priority and we'd be fine, but they stupidly decided to create a whole new tier of canon just to write off any inconsistencies.
I’m really glad you went over the Maul problem. It makes much more sense that he’s actually dead. Personally I love the old wounds comic and kinda include it in my own head canon lol. But still he’s pretty dead in the EU which imo is the superior canon!
He was alive there too, but only after his reintroduction in TCW, his death happened on tatooine, but in very different ways between rebels and the comic. Neither is canon to legends or canon in my opinion anyway, it makes NO SENSE that he survived the ordeal on naboo
As someone who enjoys both canon (especially Filoni’s work) and legends (especially Traviss’ work), I think it’s bizarre that TCW is counted in Legends. It fits in perfectly with _Rebels_ and works very well with the films, but doesn’t work at all in Legends. What’s weird is that it would be so simple to fix. Lucasfilm just has to say “TCW isn’t part of Legends”. Plus, we get two seperate versions of how the Clone Wars played out. I think that’s pretty cool.
Rebels sure, but I dunno if TCW really fits in with the movies all that well. The amount of times Obi-Wan and Anakin face Count Dooku in TCW doesn't really fit with Obi-Wan's "This time we'll do it together." And Ahsoka being absent from Revenge of the Sith is incredibly distracting. You can tell when watching Revenge of the Sith that Ahsoka is not a part of this universe. And what was it Vader said in A New Hope? "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." Ironically, I feel that Starkiller from The Force Unleashed fits in better with the movies than Ahsoka does
I would love to see legends and canon grow as equals. If both could exist at the same time, both producing their own timelines would be perfectly fine. And quite frankly, it would be kind of awesome.
Saberian Dream that and look what he did to Grievous I went form a Jedi slaying badass and a master tactician to a weak pushover pussy it just ain’t right
Ha! If only it were possible, which I'd love to see. Sadly after SWTOR is finished there won't really be anything new for Legends, and seems Disney and Lucasfilm are fine with that.
"So concerned, I wrote a letter." Little did we know that there was never any hope. Disney has completely destroyed star wars permanently, leaving only Legends as anything of value.
One of my biggest grudges on TCW is Ahsoka. First, there's absolutely no clue in the OC that Anakin had an apprentice, Obi Wan would have to know such a thing, and it would've been a big deal. Secondly, Anakin in the OC was portraited as strong Jedi that let anger consume him, becoming Darth Vader, and in the Prequels (Which, for me, have lots of bad qualities, some regarding Anakin himself, but regardless of that, I'll proceed) he is a cocky - but really skilled - young Padawan and later on Jedi Knight, constantly arguing with his master, so I don't see how a man like that could ever have the capability to teach a young Jedi-Aspiring girl with the consent of his master and the rest of the Masters
@@weegee_darthno4045 The irony is that Multimedia Anakin was FAR more competent in leadership, as well as being more empathetic with the clones due to being a slave himself earlier on. It's why he was one of the only respected Jedi by the intelligent clones (Along with Obi-Wan), and why they adored him as Vader. Another detail is Palpatine. Palps partially designed the Clone Wars to be a method to build up Anakin to the point that he would be the face of the galaxy when the Empire took over, and he would eventually become the true Sith Lord (Palpatine wasn't as power-hungry as Disney makes him seem, he even admits to wanting Anakin to surpass him in power in RotS). Considering how much of a pain in the ass Kenobi was (He was meant to die numerous times, first to Maul, then to the Geonosians, then to Dooku, and 20 more assassination attempts during the actual war. He was eventually kept around since his duo with Anakin made the latter even more famous), it is unthinkable that he would let Anakin have an apprentice to potentially distract him. In the first month of the war, Palps would have Ashoka kidnapped and beaten to death for daring to come close to Anakin.
whats more annoying most lore breaking changes are unnecassery like just let anakin be a fellow padawan to ahsoka and maybe just maybe depict the actual crucial events in the clone wars
That's why I wish Lucas had just given Faloni complete control. The guy clearly knew about the EU, but everytime he tried to import a plot line Lucas wanted to change it. Like when Faloni tried to import the Jango Comic for the Mandalorians, but Lucas told him he couldn't because he didn't consider Jango a Mandalorian. So Faloni could keep Clan Vizla & Deathwatch but had to retcon everything else.
George himself even said TCW was not on the same level of canon as the movies: “In the end, the movie - and, by extension, the 100-episode TV show for which it serves as a prologue - is not a Skywalker story, Lucas insisted. "The epic itself is basically about one man. You pass through a lot of things, but you never get to look at it. [With 'Clone Wars'], we're not burdened by the mythological underpinnings. We get to go more places," Lucas said. "The story about Anakin Skywalker and his fall into the dark side and redemption by his son, that's finished. It was started when he was 10, it ends when he died. There's no more story to tell. All that stuff is really not part of what this is." Stylistically and tonally, however, the film almost takes place in an entirely separate universe." TCW was also listed as T-canon which was not on the same level as G-canon.
This also lines up with the original intention of the show, which was to make it a stand-alone, almost Infinities-like anthology series, fairly detached from both the films and the EU. Somewhere along the line though that intention was lost, which is what led to wacky stuff like Ahsoka getting mentioned in an EU novel, and the show's pacifist Mandalorian faction being confirmed as canonical by The Essential Guide to Warfare. tl;dr Star Wars kinda fell apart after 2008.
It’s not just the fact that TCW contradicted the Eu that everyone has a problem with, it’s also the sheer fact that the changes made in TCW are really lame and underwhelming compared to what came before.
@@JonP1245 Mandalorians aren’t very much changes at all, the only difference is that a pacifist faction had risen to power on Mandolore itself, which frankly is expected. However most Mandos in the galaxy live some form of a warrior lifestyle. And no, the Bad Batch aren’t in any way a “less cool” version of commandos, we literally see a Gregor (a commando) in TCW as well as another squad of them.
@@justchilling704 I don't think it makes sense for a pacifist faction to be made up of people (humans) with a single set of phenotypes (blue eyes, blonde hair, light skin). Also, I don't think it makes sense for the faction to be composed of a single species.
I'm getting tired of people complaining about the EU having contradictory stories, while Disney's new canon will for sure be totally consistent and make sense. As shown by TLJ, they can't even keep the continuity between films straight, let alone between different forms of media.
Five Shots No Kills 1. The entire state of the galaxy is disregarded and the ending of TFA's Resistance victory is forgotten. 2. Kylo was supposed to be trained after TFA. He wasn't. There was no formal training of any sort. And no, the thing with Rey does not count. 3. All of the Imperials are somehow now in pursuit of the Resistance, after nearly being killed on Starkiller Base. 4. Poe goes from trusting Leia as a bold leader, but is now willing to go against her orders. 5. Rey's backstory is noticeably changed, since there were clear suggestions that Rey was someone special and known to the other characters. 6. Finn goes from switching sides in TFA to being willing to abandon the Resistance. Overall: These are just some of the major ones I could think of off the top of my head. If you like the film, that's fine, but it's clear that the films are not quite cohesive.
Star Wars canon is made of contradictions, like how Darth Vader goes from having killed Luke's father to _being_ Luke's father; or how Leia went to be the Princess and a potential love interest to Luke to being Luke's sister; or how Darth went from being a name to being a Sith title. It's best not to worry about it and just enjoy what you like
Bleed Green Well, he also called Grevious a "general" during the Clone Wars, and he called Dooku a "count" during the Clone Wars. I know, it may sound strange at first, since "Darth" is not a Earth-word, and we do not recognise it as a title at first, but honestly it makes perfect sense
@@theketaminefrog6366 Honestly I'm not sure (pure Legends fan here, took me a while though). I just used my BSc knowledge, where new details come to light to disprove a theory - in this case, perhaps making actually solid reasons for why at least parts of TCW can fit into Legends would be a good place to start. Maybe if the people who disliked the vid could comment, we'd have an actual discussion here. Your guess is as good as mine.
There’s only one Clone Wars show and it’s the micro-series made from 2003-2005. George Lucas created it with Genndy Tartakovsky and was an Executive Producer on the show and had as much involvement as he could while making Revenge of the Sith. It’s still a great to watch all these years later.
@@AshanBhatoa Lucas had near zero involvement in TCW, please rewatch the videos Fordo has made. Lucas' involvement pretty much begins and ends with wanting ahsoka to die.
@@AshanBhatoaexcept Lucas was barely involved with TCW after the first 2 Seasons. Also bringing up Lucas' involvement isn't a flex, as he did help Filoni in introducing all the dumb BS people dislike about TCW and was mostly involved when TCW was at its worst. I respect Lucas and I think he's a good idea man, but the dude has made a lot of mistakes in terms of lore and characters since the OT ended.
Most of the arguments I've gotten in about TCW were of people arguing that TCW was made specifically for Legends, so it shouldn't be in canon at all.... Which has always baffled me
There is a prophecy of a Chosen One who would get rid of TCW from the Legends timeline, restoring balance and continuity to Legends.... Captain Fordo, you are the Chosen One.
I feel like TCW in legends would be like a dramatized historical documentary, made in the new republic. getting a lot of events out of order or wrong because many details where lost, or destroyed by the empire by that time, and glorifies a lot of leaders that would be a part of the rebellion. like making anakin a lot more cool in it to respect luke skywalker's father, and claiming that the clones had chips in them to make them seem good because some clones probably fought in the rebellion.
I actually have an interesting fan theory that could fix tcw without the propaganda theory: **I HAVE NOT READ FOTJ so please take my theory with a grain of salt** Okay, so my fan theory is that TCW SOLELY takes place ion the Disney canon. However, when Abeloth was locked away, she was not only banished into the unknown regions but, the legends version of the unknown regions so that way the world of the Disney canon would be safe from her. Unfortunately, her presence in the legends canon caused space and time to distort. For example, history began to change to reflect the Disney canon. his would explain the contradictions between tcw and legends AND the novels being rerwritten to fit within tcw. Plus, you would never EVR have to erase abeloth
The Show is good but i agree that The Clone Wars doesnt fit in the Expanded Universe timeline The show contradicts many things and elements such as the story of Quinlan Vos from the Republic comics or The Republic Commando Game and the Novels or the Mandalorians
@@jacktheflash8478 If you only have the Republic Commando game then you are correct, yet you do not only have that game. The book series by the same name, written by Karen Traviss, clearly does conflict with the series in more than just one way. 1) Mandalor (the planet) wasn't bombed all to hell. 2) The capital is Keldabe, which is a "rural" town of only a few million people. 3) The Mandalorians never became pacifists. 4) The Clans never accepted some kind of nobility to rule over them. 5) The clones never had any chips implanted to keep them obedient, lest the escape/desertion by elements of Omega Squad and other Republic Commando units as well as the Null batch of ARK troopers would not have been possible, the way it has been portrayed. 6) Mandalor was allied with the Confederation but escaped retribution from the Empire due to the Beskar production on the planet, which the Empire needed. You see where I am going with this? yes all of this is mentioned in the video so let me clarify: these books expand on the game. it does not exist in a void.
@@jacktheflash8478 Your original post does imply that. You say that TCW does not contradict Republic Commando - which it does not as long as you only look at the game itself but the game does not exist by itself.
I'm someone who would have never known about the EU if it wasn't for TCW. That being said, I too don't see why people want to keep both shows in the same timeline ( unless they also include the COMPNOR explanation).
I love The Clone Wars and 2003 Clone Wars. While I prefer the CGI show a tiny bit more, I definitely agree with Commander Frodo about The Clone Wars should not be a part of the Extended Universe.
Well i guess this finishes 10 years of trying to wrap my hand around the inconsistencies, (adding some major ones aswell), if only 10 years old me had saw this. As a fan of both series having TCW stay in the disney canon (as much as i hate it) is such a simple solution. Also the way you talk made this a pretty enjoyable watch
I think my voice is quite annoying actually lol, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. There were a few things I regrettably didn't touch upon in this video, like Quinlan Vos and Bariss Offee. Quinlan vos had this awesome story arc throughout the Star Wars: Republic comics where he was a double agent, working for both Dooku and the Republic and we got to see him struggle with himself as he skirted between the light side and the dark side, TCW didn't touch up on any of that and basically made him a cameo character, like they did with Delta Squad from Republic Commando. Bariss Offee on the other hand was a cool character in her own right. In the Medstar novels Barriss spends much of her time behind the lines, putting her jedi healing abilities to good use, as she originally trained as a jedi healer, working with Republic medics to help save her own clone soldiers. TCW ignores all of this and basically uses her character as a plot device to blame Ahsoka for a bomb plot on the jedi temple, and get her kicked out of the jedi order, thus solving the issue of ahsoka not appearing in revenge of the sith (Dave should have just killed her off). turning this Jedi healer into a bloodthirsty terrorist, which makes complete sense right? but yeah as the video got to be over 30 minutes long, i had to cut a lot of stuff out
"Quinlan vos had this awesome story arc throughout the Star Wars: Republic comics where he was a double agent, working for both Dooku and the Republic and we got to see him struggle with himself as he skirted between the light side and the dark side" Funny thing about that. I read that unaried episodes of TCW were going to have essentially the same plot. Vos was going to go undercover to try to assassinate Dooku, get turned to the dark side by him, get redeemed back to the light side, and then go undercover *again* to try to assassinate Dooku *again* . Ah, good old Dave Filoni. When he wasn't too busy utterly destroying the Legends timeline, he still had enough time to copy its plots and try to pass them off as his own.
This has blown my mind. I grew up with TCW but after looking extensively at the multi media project, I honestly prefer the multi media project a lot more. Awesome video.
I'm a fan of both timelines. I do think you're idea is better, but I think Disney is keeping it there to keep the Legends Canon off balance and broken so they can use as an excuse to say hey our stuff is better.
Precisely! Whether intentional or not on Disney's part, leaving TCW in the Legends time is essentially doing just that, causing continuity errors Legends, making it appear far weaker to those who would show potential interest in it, while meticulously policing their canon to minimize continuity errors. While not the soul reason for New Canon fan's claim of "The EU had No Continuity", it is one of the major factors that reconnected an entire era of star wars history and sending ripple effects through the rest of the time-line.
Damia Savon Yes it may have had weird elements and just blatant horrible elements (Darth Sidious/Palpatine resurrected himself multiple times after the supposed Chosen One for filling his prophecy. . Plus continuity errors before TCW however, the EU is very interesting and very very Expansive.
They did a good job of fucking up their own canon, I mean they showed in The Last Jedi that weaponizing hyperdrives is possible - which calls into question all of the movies.... because if they could just do this all along then why didn't they? All of the star wars movies would be 30 minutes shorter. "death star? just ram a ship into it at the speed of light. That'll do the trick". There'd be less tension and less struggle. Flagships wouldn't be a thing because they'd just be huge targets, because they showed that shields aren't really effective against that. This concept basically breaks the universe because all of the major struggles in the movies could have been solved with just ramming a ship into it. So we have a fucked up legends and canon lore ;)
+Damia Savon *I can see you have no clue what you're talking about - have you watched Revenge Of The Sith? Because Revenge Of The Sith established that General Grevious had never fought Obi-wan Kenobi before their duel on Utapau - TCW is Non-Canon.*
If you really think about it, it's probably a good thing that Disney no longer accepts the Expanded Universe as canon. They would probably take all of these stories and characters we've grown to love and ruin them seeing as to how they've been doing that with characters that exist within their current canon and stories they've come up with.
Exactly, frankly I'm fine with considering Star Wars a closed and finished project narratively speaking. If something from Disney comes out that I like that can fit in the EU, I might cherry pick it out for my own headcanon, otherwise it is basically done just like LOTR has been for decades, doesn't mean it can't be loved the same way.
I completely agree with everything mentioned in the video. TCW would have been better if Ahsoka Tano would be Plo Koon's Padawan who just tagged along with Anakin and Obi-Wan on a few missions and then have General Grievous, Dooku, or Ventress kill her. Keep TCW in Disney Canon and the multimedia project in Legends that simple and most importantly: CONTINUE LEGENDS. The only thing I didn't like about the Clone Wars multimedia project was the fact that they never released Escape from Dagu(Shaak Ti novel) by William C. Dietz even though the events that took place in that novel were referenced in Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover and the novel was fully completed by never published and printed because of Yoda Dark Rendezvous.
The whole point they added Ahsoka was to have a better dynamic between Obi wan and Anakin. Her leaving the order is one of the reasons why Anakin started to distrust the Jedi order. It wouldn’t work with her as a Padawan of Plo Koon. And legends is still being continued with SWTOR, but only because it’s an active MMO. I agree on that point legends should be continued in its entirety.
@@Deranfan Whoa, how did she create a better dynamic between Anakin and Obi-Wan? They already had that without her. And seriously, the show would've been so much better without her. She is literally one of the worst written characters I have ever seen and all she does is trod on Anakin and Obi-Wan, as well as authority figures in general. And Anakin's distrust of the Jedi had nothing to do with Ahsoka leaving. Anakin literally said as she was leaving that there were times he thought of leaving too.
I personally really enjoy TCW, but I also feel like the legends continuity makes a lot more sense story-wise (like Anakin not having a padawan, Maul staying dead, not fighting Dooku so many times, etc). The canon version is fun and adventurous, but I believe the legends version fits better with the films and overall EU.
The Clone Wars was around long before Disney ever purchased Lucasfilm. Just because it can't fit seamlessly into the EU, that doesn't mean it should get shoved off on the company that tried to cancel it for good.
Thanks for this. I always thought that they screwed up the timing royally. I thought that the TCW show took place in the last year and a half of the war. The montage after Anakin's knighting in the original clone wars animation was when the TCW show happened.
So I’m years late but I’m glad I noticed this recently. Kind of finally noticed it when I saw the renaming of Korriban to Moraband. It was really unnecessary, with the only excuse being “it sounded too similar to Coruscant.” I noticed it like 2 months ago and it’s been wrecking my brain. That said, I still love George and Dave. They’re great people and great writers, I just wished they had a bit more respect for existing material (and when I mention George I mean his recently-published plan for his sequel trilogy).
Oh I accept it, I just don't care. I'm the type of guy to use headcanon rather than get caught up on one Canon over the other anyways. Will there be contradictions? Sure. But then there were numerous contradictions in Legends. Thrawn trilogy talk of clone wars contradicted by prequels. Boba Fett getting eaten by the same Sarlacc twice. There's even a contradiction in the video. Regular clone troopers were programmed to be 100 percent obedient yet several hesitated when given order 66? What? He says the brain chips is never mentioned in movies, and fair enough, but then neither is clone hesitation, even among commanders. All carry out their orders in movie without a moment's hesitation. Overall i find it best not to get worked up over these things and instead to use headcanon. Each to their own I suppose. Let's also mention Abeloth's character and her relation to TCW characters is very well established
I'm glad someone else has pointed out the flaws in The Clone Wars. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed that show. But I always thought they forced it a little too much, and that it was ultimatly saved by fan love of Ashoka Tano.
The Clone Wars DESTROYED Anakins character all because they saw it as a quick fix. It's in his LORE to be bratty and confused. The Republic comics played to those strengths! TCW is a quick fix. Make him ROTS Anakin instead of AOTC Anakin. Why? Because it would shut non fans up. A horrifying quick fix. Bless the EU.
@nikolai 1939 Obi Wan says, "He was the best starfighter in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior... (him talking to Luke about how he's becoming a good pilot) and he was a good friend." Obi Wan referring to Anakin as a good friend doesn't mean he doesn't have the flaws he does in Episode 2 and 3, it just means that Anakin was a good friend to him.
Because he was a whiny monk teenager at the time, tryna impress Padme, and also lost his mother later in the movie. In the earlier scenes, I agree. In the scene where he lost his mother, I don't agree, since losing a loved one can really affect someone and cause them to lash out.
Basically, in CWMMP they showed how the bratty teenager from episodie 2 became the confident and brave man from episodie 3. In TCW they just insert Anakin from ep 3 from the get go.
@@galaxydogenut9801 you can't defend a poorly written character from the movies just by saying oh that's what his personality is, he's supposed to be that way The fact is that George Lucas didn't know how to write Anakin or any other character from that trilogy correctly and fucked it up. I would accept Anakin's upbringing from a hot tempered over emotional teen to a more mature and wiser young adult if we actually saw him grow and develop in these movies instead of having comics and novels as an excuse to cover up what Lucas couldn't do on screen Btw I'm not blaming any of the writers from the comcis or novels, I totally understand what they had to do in their position between and after the movies. They basically had to cover up everything Lucas didn't do correctly
At this point, six years after this video, reviving Legends would be a DISASTER! Disney has made it clear that they are wholly incompetent of adapting the EU into Canon, let alone telling new, creative Canon stories. Thrawn, Death Troopers, Sidious' Revival, and a bustling handful of other cameos from beloved characters. Even concepts, such as Ben Skywalker being portrayed in an objectively inferior way in Disney Canon. As it stands, Legends exists in a perfect time capsule. It is untouched, undisturbed by Disney's idiocracy. There are periodic additions through BioWare/Broadsword on SWTOR and RPG sourcebooks, but overall the lore is the same as the day it was decanonized. Changing this would only further destroy the EU. We must be willing to let go. The EU is dead, but that is good. It should not be reanimated so that Disney can manipulate its corpse. We can enjoy it for what it was, and hope that Disney doesn't bring it back just to destroy it.
@@EternalEmperorofZakuulwouldn’t you love to see Rey and Ahsoka teaming up into a Mary Sue duo? Wouldn’t you love to see them girlbossing a Chinese Bootleg version of the Yuuzhan Vong while wielding yellow lightsabers? Oh boy it’d be sooooo cool and empowering to see these strong wahmen use the World Between Worlds to bitchslap Darth Revan for no reason
Damn... I had no idea how much TCW show pissed on the Original EU so much... On one hand I grew up with the show and it was my first introduction to Star Wars, but on the other hand, hearing all of these contradictions on Legends is really disheartening to hear. Thanks for making this video dude. Some of the directions in Legends actually seemed to be more interesting and I might actually pick up the Legends Canon
@@guillesuperior ummm no. Dig deeper and you'll realize that isn't true. Heck, look at this guy's other channel Manda-lore and watch his Expanded Universe Exposed video
@@guillesuperior which is why he never considered the EU Canon to begin with and didn’t give a fuck if the stories or lore contradicted each other so long as they didn’t contradict his 6 movies
@@dilloon7626 The Palpatine line that stated that the Republic had 1000 years contradicted a lot of things at the time, and the EU eventually worked around it to make the line make sense
I agree with you that The Clone Wars shouldn't be included in the Legends canon, but as a fan of TCW, I disagree with many of your criticisms of the show. I think the only real problem it had was that it was stepping on existing canon, and if you remove it from Legends it fixes the problem entirely.
but then TCW doesn't really fit in with the movies though. "This time we'll do it together." Oh, apart from when we fought him about 5 months ago, we did it together then. Or just over 6 weeks ago, that was together too. "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." I mean, I know I had a padawan, and she called me master, buuuut.... Hell, just watch Revenge of the Sith, you can tell Ahsoka isn't a part of this universe
Skullcrusher430 George Lucas did specifically request for Ahsoka to be Anakin's apprentice, so yeah. I do agree with you that the legends timeline ironically aligns better with the films, but that doesn't stop the fact that TCW is considered canon. While some film dialogue does seem a bit odd, it never directly contradicts TCW. "This time we will do this together" "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." "You fool, I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" While all these lines seem odd considering TCW, they don't contradict anything. "This time we will do this together" still can refer to episode II AOTC despite the other duels. "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." While Anakin did have an apprentice he still was the rank of Jedi Knight, not Jedi Master, So, the quote can refer to this. Or the quote can simply mean that Vader has learned since his past defeat and surpassed Obi-wan. Either way, Anakin's mastery was less than what he had achieved as Vader. "You fool, I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" I personally find it quite odd Grievous is stating this considering Obi-wan and Grievous fought numerous times in TCW, but Grievous could be simply stating this as an intimidation method. So, while the original 6 films don't smoothly align with TCW as well they do with Legends, they don't really contradict TCW either.
Oh, I know that TCW is canon according to Lucasfilm, I just think its a shame that something that decided to not align itself as smoothly with the movies is considered canon, but the rest of the EU that didn't step on the movies toes at all is considered Legends. Although I suppose the movies themselves are contradictory to one another, Leia wouldn't remember her mother right after she was born. The Expanded universe only ever really contradicted itself, but when it did, they introduced a retcon here, a new explanation there, and everything was cleared up, and often cleared up really well. There were multiple different accounts of who stole the plans for the original Death Star, Kyle Katarn, Lethal Alliance, Battlefront 2 (the original), but the reason given was that the Empire had scattered the plans to keep them out of enemy hands, and R2-D2 was the one who pieced them together in A New Hope
I never said you didn't know TCW was canon. Yeah, I do agree it is a bit of a shame that the stories of the legends aren't canon anymore despite all the connections to the films. But, on the bright side, the 6 films are still apart of legends continuity. As Captain Fordo said, it's perfectly fine to have separate cannons as long as both timelines are being taken care of. So, in its self, it really doesn't matter if a story is legends or cannon. These are just labels for two different timelines and the labels shouldn't affect one's enjoyment of the materials.
Skullcrusher430 Those are pretty nitpicky criticisms imho. You can actually make the same case with lines from the OT not meshing with the prequels that came after.
No matter how much I love TCW, it should be taken out from the Legends/EU continuity completely because it causes contradictions and glossed over 90%-80% of immersive Prequel-era content in that timeline. There is barely any Prequel stories through books and comics to go by in the New Canon timeline, and would love to those works regenerate and grow once again. What a gorgeous tapestry it was and eager to read some Clone Wars-era EU since I love reading. All books, comics, and references to Filoni's Clone Wars (TCW) needs to be relegated to the Disney Canon timeline and stay out of the Expanded Universe. Another thing I disliked about TCW was the derailment and atrociously motionless combat style of General Grievous. He can be a coward all he wants in Canon, but that doesn't the excuse the lack of evasive speed, agility, and endurance that was invested from mental decades of primitive warfare, as well as lightsaber training he received from Count Dooku in Legends. Those impressive feats from his Legends counterpart needs to be reinstalled back into Grievous, according to the functionality, design, and aesthetic of lightweight primitive cybernetics. He fights like a machine, but is still a competent warrior in that regard and do really admire. Cheers to TCW and the beauty of the Clone Wars multimedia project if or when Lucasfilm/Disney decides to fix up those continuity errors. #CloneWarsGALORE
You inspire me. Perhaps we should gather fans who think similarly, sit around a table and create a council of a well-structuted fan canon based on a consensus. Drawing inspiration from what was done in Antiquity during the canon councils for the Bible. As an RPG player, every time I have to explain what kind of media my table will reference and what kind of media will be ignored. If we had a fan canon we could simply use "We use the fan canon defined by the Council of Fordo" etc. I'm not kidding, we should work on that and publish in PDF.
I would like too. I grow up with CWMP even i didnt know that, and i especially love Traviss RC novels and how she portrayed clone was and mandalorian culture.
I started watching TCW and loved it. In between season 2 and 3 I think, I wanted something to hold off my star wars addiction started reading the clone war omnibus comics and the Darth Bane novels to pass the time, getting my first introduction into the EU. It was the undoing for my love of TCW. By season 3 then 4 I gradually started to get confused by and argue with TCW over the continuity errors I'd been finding. By season 5, I was watching to rant, nothing more. I like many of the ideas and stories TCW has but there are too many problems for me to accept it in tandem with legends. It's created a mess that I'm still unraveling to this day. I didn't even know the nightsisters had been changed, so thank you for that.
Currupt Angel you did yourself a great diservice by thinking too much into what you were watching honestly. Seasons 4- the lost missions were the best piece of media I've ever consumed and just like you tcw had gotten me into legends i played kotor read the raven books the bane books and the plagius books and even through all that i thought tcw was still the most fun I've ever had. I really wish you'd watch it again without biased towards legends or canon... just enjoy it and may the force be with you.
john Calderon now that I watch it as Canon, not legends I can enjoy it more. I just never liked the clones being too human, the droids too comedic, the terrible villain powerratings, and some of the in your face changes it made to legends. For example, in season 5, by making barriss offee the villain, they changed her entire character as well as the chilling death legends gave her. So now that I don't consider it changing the stories so much as a parallel series of events in the star wars multiverse, I've been enjoying TCW more in that I'm able to enjoy it at all.
@@poppag8281 As far as the show goes, if you can seperate the show from the books and comics, or haven't read said books and comics, they are....kind of. Compared to the first two seasons, the animation is a little better, they changed to a mostly linear timeline, (making the show much easier to follow) and Ahsoka is much more likable.
@@saberiandream316 Harsh words but, sadly, true to an extent. It's not just the unretconnable differences between the Republic comics and Clone Wars-era novels (not to mention the movies) but also the simple fact that TCW is just too... childish, especially in its early seasons. The way politics is played out, the way the Separatists act like Saturday morning cartoon villains, it all just screams kids' stuff. That would have been fine as a YA timeline taking place somewhere to the side of the movie characters, but not as THE timeline.
@@RiverOfBlacklights He's basically saying it hurts someone tells you that, only because you like something, then it's because it did bad to another thing(s)
Well, I wasn't really into the old EU until I had already mentally placed TCW firmly in the new continuity, so I guess that's not wrong. I was okay with the old EU being thrown out of that continuity because it was never in that continuity for me to begin with. And you know what? So what?
To be fair, when it comes to the Clone Wars timeline, it has always been fuzzy at best. The pivotal siege of Coruscant had two different versions: James Luceno's novel, Labyrinth of Evil, and the 2003 Clone Wars Tartakovsky cartoon. In the former, Anakin was chasing after Dooku, in the latter, he was investigating a Skakoan project to enslave natives and turn them into supersoldiers. These are two different versions of the same timeline. Right there, we have two conflicting works that can't both be true, and both of them were in the old Clone Wars EU. Then there was the Karen Traviss novels that showed the Jedi in the most incompetent light possible, making them out to be buffoons when it came to military strategy and showing how the clones hated them and wanted to get rid of them. Her hatred of the Jedi is so strong that she basically was on the camp that they all deserved to die and they were shitty military leaders. She saw them as a bunch of slave drivers which were just as bad as the Nazis, when in reality, it was Jango Fett who allowed himself to be cloned to create a slave army for pay, and Darth Sidious/Palpatine was the only slave master the Clone Army had-which is why he had the authority to pull Order 66 on the Jedi. The Jedi merely guided and aided the Clone Army-they were as much slaves of the Republic as the Clone Army was, due to their oath to the Republic-something Traviss neglected to mention. This stands in stark contrast to the rest of Legends, as well as the rest of the Clone Wars EU, which showed the Jedi to be fine generals who knew how to wage wars like the back of their necks. For example, the Galactic Battlegrounds game showed Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn and Echuu Shen-Jon as great military tacticians and leaders, with Qui-Gon even instructing a band of Wookiees on military tactics and the logistics of building military installations while Echuu defeated Dooku's best general Sev'rance Tann, who herself is no slouch either. Traviss portraying them to be military buffoons stands in stark contrast to how Lucas and the other EU authors portrayed Jedi Generals: in Attack of the Clones, Mace Windu and the Jedi generals lead the clone forces to victory with little casualties on the part of the clone forces, while other EU works ranging from Clone Wars books to Tales of the Jedi portrayed the Jedi as experts on warfare and the military, with Jedi generals leading armies and fleets There was also the fact that the clones LIKED the Jedi, so much so that Order 66 put many clones in a lot of stress, since they were raised to be good soldiers who followed orders, yet they loved their Jedi commanders. Even the 501st-centric 2005 version of SW Battlefront 2 portrayed the clone legions as reluctant executioners when it came to killing Jedi. So if the clones hated the Jedi as Traviss stated, there would be no clones who disobeyed Order 66, and they'd treat the order with joy and glee, not reluctance and regret, the way they did in so many other works. So I'm not that angry over the Clone Wars 2008 show retconning a few things. The Clone Wars EU already had conflicting interpretations of the Jedi, the clone army, the Mandalorians, and even one of the biggest battles of the war. The way I see it, I'll just pick and choose between the old EU and the new TCW show which is canon for my own Legends timeline. But Traviss making the Jedi out to be incompetent evil buffoons already contradicts 90% of Legends lore which shows otherwise. It makes me angry whenever channels like Generation Tech regurgitate such garbage when I've seen otherwise-in games and other comics which portrayed the Jedi as a group with a long, proud, military tradition that even the movies reflect. There were retcons of the TCW show I definitely didn't like, such as Grievous getting nerfed and those damn Order 66 chips, but most of what they did with Mandalore didn't piss me off in the slightest, especially when at this time, Jango's True Mandalorians were mostly dead, leaving the Death Watch, which was in hiding when Jango's army was destroyed, and the New Mandalorians who avoided war altogether. So naturally, those two would be fighting like cats and dogs once Jango's forces were gone. And Mandos actually experimenting with pacifism and cultivating a civilization is a nice development that shows growth and real experimentation-similar as to how Jedi in earlier and later eras experimented with marriage and emotional ties as well as the Dark Side instead of staying as the always-stoic, celibate Jedi who avoided the Dark Side like the plague. If the Jedi can change, why not the Mandos? And of course, Legends only stretches up to Season 5 of the Clone Wars, so with Maul gone and the Death Watch in disarray, Spar could have easily come in with some Mando clans that were in hiding and seized the planet for the Seps. Sounds like something Dooku would do after Death Watch failed him.
@@saberiandream316 Except the Jedi allow the kids to leave if they don't want to be Jedi. Heck, all you need to do to leave the Jedi is just flunk your trials, experiment with the Dark Side, or just walk out and leave. It's not as inhumane as Jango and his Mandalorians putting Clone Commandos through live-fire training, or the Mandalorians literally enslaving and genociding people for shits and giggles during the KOTOR era. Whatever the flaws of the Jedi were, the Mandalorians were way worse, and in more ways than one, they don't ask for your consent before they draft, enslave, or kill you. So it's really hilarious to see Karen Traviss extolling the glories of the Mandalorians while whining about the Jedi enslaving clones and kidnapping children. Mandalore Jango Fett made that clone slave army for money, he and his goons put some of them through deadly live-fire exercises, and the Mandalorians enslaved and genocided people for crappy reasons.
@@saberiandream316 They obviously have free will when they grow up. It's no secret that many candidates for Jedi training either just don't fit in and leave, or they flunk their trials and get kicked out of the Order. Olee Starstone loved the life of a Jedi because she found comfort in its ideals, but other Jedi like Anakin obviously didn't. I mean, he was even threatened with expulsion from the Jedi Order by his own master. If you really want to leave the Jedi, just do something stupid to get the guys in charge to kick you out. Or do what Phanius and Dooku did and just resign your commission and leave. Dooku, Ahsoka, and Phanius all left of their own free will, and nobody bothered them, whereas the Jedi wouldn't have lost sleep if Anakin was kicked out of the Order. The Mandalorians kidnapped kids too. In KOTOR, when you encounter a Sith operation to kidnap/lure/recruit Force-sensitive youths in Manaan, Canderous Ordo chimes in and says that Mandalorian recruiters did the exact same thing, taking kids when they're young and indoctrinating them in the ways of the Mandalorians. They also enslaved people, which obviously goes against free will. And the leader of the True Mandalorians consented to creating a clone slave army for money. So overriding free will isn't something Mandalorians aren't used to. They did it all the time, kidnapping or recruiting kids, enslaving people, and even making clone slave armies for pay. As bad as the Jedi can be, the Mandalorians are far worse, and Traviss is stupid to hold them as some kind of ideal when they've done worse things than the Jedi ever did.
@@saberiandream316 Except there were no set numbers for the Jedi until Disney took over. Also, the Jedi can be as strict as they want, because that's their choice. People who don't like that life can and do just walk away. Either they fail the Jedi Trials by chance or by choice, or they just walk out on the Order and give the Council the middle finger. You can't do that with Spartans, Mandalorian slaves, or that clone slave army that Jango Fett made, which makes Traviss' over-praising of the Mandalorians hypocritical. In Halo, kids who try to escape the Spartan program get tracked down and captured again. Those who walk out on the Jedi don't have that displeasure inflicted upon them. It's not Communism when you can just walk out and leave the Jedi: the Berlin Wall was proof of that.
Why the heck would you dislike the inhibitor chips? You’d rather the Clones be honorless sociopaths who willingly betray their generals? The chips are an obvious security measure to ensure compliance it makes perfect sense and is a great addition to the lore.
@@justchilling704 It made Order 66 more dramatic. The fact that these guys could choose between following the state which they have been taught to honor and obey or follow their Jedi commander whom they fought beside. And it made disobeying Order 66 an act of courage, not a result of getting a chip out of your brain.
@@saberiandream316 couple things wrong with what u say 1 I too prefer legends 2 filoni had a vision because ashoka and every other new character is consistent and deserve to be in the old EU 3 filoni couldn't include durge because disney likely wouldn't let him 4 WTF You insolent mortal dare talk down about the SIEGE OF F__KING MANDALORE AND THE UMBARAN ARC! Those arcs are the reason why the new Clone wars overall is better than the old. In legends (god I hate to call it that) your normie clone is a CGI nothing, whereas in the clone wars the clones are people with personalities, and the deus ex machina known as order 66 gets turned into an interesting plot point instead of being lazy. And lastly, you bi__hy fanboys should find your balance in instead of talking sh_t about the show you should find the way to put the good episodes into the old EU because that is what they deserve. Oh and FYI I hate the disney trilogy I think it butchered the OT and everything about it and the old EU thrawn trilogy is my ep 7,8 and 9
@@saberiandream316 no TCW was just meant to be fan fic kids show. but then it became more,where a lot of, not all, but a lot of the arcs became better than some of the EU Clone Wars
You are correct, and not only does TCW disrespect legends, but also the prequel films that they are heavily connected to. To cite an example, in EP. 2 it is stated by lama su that the clones are "Totally obedient, taking any order without question." Compare this to how they are portayed in TCW: where we clearly see almost ALL of the clones are acting independent and outright disobeying orders. This also establishes yet another issue, why would palpatine want clones that have a level of free-thought and independence and not just mindless drones if his end goal is to make sure the clones obey his orders to wipe out the jedi? It doesn't make sense. Then you've got other big issues such as the jedi council giving anakin a padawan when we know from the prequel films they don't really trust him and weren't even willing to give him the rank of master in EP. 3. Of course, I could go on forever and these two points I've brought up are only a drop of water in the vast ocean of reasons why TCW is ultimately bad.
The vast majority of deviant clones were under Anakin's command, and Anakin, apart from most other Jedi, facilitated and encouraged independent thinking among his troops. It wasn't Palpatine's doing, and it clearly didn't undermine the effectiveness of Order 66. But if you're more happy with a show about mindless and impersonal drones (The Drone Wars, lol), then here's to you. Also, it was Yoda alone who selected a Padawan for Anakin, and that was three years prior to his rejection in EP. 3. To say a lote changed in those three in a gross understatement, especially when one considers that Anakin's Padawan had since turned away from the Order and abandoned the Jedi. Perhaps Anakin bore her "disgrace" in their eyes.
@@nathang6376 so did the other clones without the chips, who began questioning their programming and began becoming individuals, not to mention some didn't get the memo, and others were stuck for years, not knowing what happened Plus the chip takes away the tension
@@EternalEmperorofZakuul - The chip did not take away the tension, not for me, but the other millions of Star Wars fans out there who hold this show near to there hearts.
@@nathang6376 it does, especially when you realize the Jedi could have easily removed them if they were found early and stop Palpatine, who can't do nothing when those clones stop him. Now without it, the Jedi know the clones are more loyal to the Republic, and any command from Palpatine is death, and if Palpatine says order 66, then the Jedi will be forced to fight back and run
This may be old but I don't care! Captain Fordo/Tadd Lar'ken: *Explains why TCW doesn't fit in the LEGENDS timeline* TCW Stans: *So you have chosen death* And this is coming from someone who liked the show.
I'm a little late with this comment, but I wanted to say that your videos really opened my eyes on all the contradictions TCW caused with the EU. I still enjoy the series on its own (though Ahsoka was never necessary), but there's no denying the fact that it's the little cut that started the infection that ruined the continuity. When it comes to TCW being labled canon within Legends, I can easily ignore that claim and just dismiss any of the TCW stuff whenever I read stuff from the original EU.
Honestly, I'm just pissed that my favorite era of Star Wars has to be vetted through this shitty show now. Gone are the days where we got interesting additions to the lore, or experimental and wild interpretations of the Clones that stayed relatively consistent to the comics, games, and movies. Now, we HAVE to have clones have Dee Bradley Baker voices. Clones now HAVE to be quirky and chipper. Clones now HAVE to bestest buddies with their jedi partners. And let's not forget how watered down the Clone Wars became. We no oonger get interesting stories like Alpha 17 or Delta Squad, where the grittiness (and in Republic Commandos case) grounded military operations take place. Everything has to be tieed to the jedi. Everything has to be anout the inhibitor chips. We can't have nuance. And ill never forgive Filloni for retconning how ARCs work. He basically turned ARCs into a rank, rather than as a unit that clones are specifically bred for.
I personally think the show is good but I dont blame anybody who dislikes it. Put aside EU retcons there is plenty to dislike. Even when Filoni was at his strongest he was rarely a GREAT writer
There’s a lot to it. Not every clone loved the Jedi. You should watch the bad batch tv show, there’s a lot of dark and gritty and grey. You can explain that the first 100 alpha arcs were the originals and then as the war went on some died so they had to replace them with the arc recruits
Filoni just liked episode 3 anakin and since he was way to lazy to make a believable character progression from episode 2 anakin to episode 3 anakin he skipped it. It gets more and more annoying the worshipping people make for filoni and they pretend he can do no wrong
@@CouncilCape897 Didn't they skip the Trial of Spirit in 2003 CW, too? As for giving Anakin a Padawan, that makes sense as being Obi-Wan's idea, supported by Yoda who perhaps thought that a Padawan might help mellow Anakin out. And, to an extent, he was right, but it also played into his overprotectiveness, and the whole play backfired after the Temple Bombing incident, shattering his trust in the Council.
This video will stand as a legendary testimony, for the future star wars fans that actually will look beyond the superficial dressing of the tcw tv show. The fans who will read the books and find that what came before was better than what tcw presented to you as a child. There is a reckoning coming, a day where the divergence of casual fans and the actual nerds comes to the forfront of the fandom, and I forsee that the casual fans will walk away when they realize that they'll actually have to read a goddamned book.😮
Same. I will always love the Expanded Universe/Legends of Star Wars thanks to me being a fan of the 3D real-time-tactics strategy game Star Wars: Empire at War (and it's Forces of Corruption expansion) which sparked my interest in Expanded Universe/Legends of the Star Wars.
I'm sad that this is happening to one my favorite fictional universes. It's a real bummer. I don't mind alternate timelines like in Marvel and DC comics, but it seems like those who have the licenses (namely Disney) are actively committed to destroying everything so lovingly made prior to their involvement. I just want a good story that makes reasonable sense and fits reasonably well with the stories that came before it. If that means multiple timelines, fine...
I too was both surprised and annoyed that they gave anakin a padewan. It made absolutley no sense.especially since in episode 3, he's still under obi Wan and there's no mention at all of ashoka in any of the trilogy prior or after.
I didn't much care about TCW, but I foolishly thought it was fine. Kids can have their shows too. Now I was more into post-RotJ EU than prequel based stuff, so I didn't notice it first, but eventually all the damage TCW was doing to the continuity became apparent to me too. I started to hate it, and not knowing about Filoni, blamed Lucas for it. Yeah, it would be nice to let Disney canon to have TCW. I have heard Filoni is messing up their EU continuity as well. That man just doesn't care.
I haven't read much of the EU outside of a few comics but I completely agree you. I just read some of star wars republic and it was amazing!! I was blown away by how great it was. It aligned with the films so perfectly. I was loving how well Anakin was potrayed. His character perfectly aligned with Hayden Christensen's portrayal in the movies. I like tcw but it's contradicts so much. Even before I started reading some eu comics I saw how it contradicted stuff in the films, and the more I get into the eu the more my love for tcw fades.
As much as I enjoyed The Clone Wars, I wouldn't miss it if it was removed from Legends entirely and put over to the Disney canon. I still prefer the 2003 Clone Wars show and 2002 video-game anyway.
I actually have an interesting fan theory that could fix tcw: **I HAVE NOT READ FOTJ so please take my theory with a grain of salt** Okay, so my fan theory is that TCW SOLELY takes place ion the Disney canon. However, when Abeloth was locked away, she was not only banished into the unknown regions but, the legends version of the unknown regions so that way the world of the Disney canon would be safe from her. Unfortunately, her presence in the legends canon caused space and time to distort. For example, history began to change to reflect the Disney canon. his would explain the contradictions between tcw and legends AND the novels being rerwritten to fit within tcw. Plus, you would never EVR have to erase abeloth
The irony when 2003 cw fudged up legends . It contradicts Layrinth of evil, and makes jedi DBZ style op. Why do you need a clone army when mace windu can solo can entire army
I've never liked the CGI Clone Wars show. I've only ever considered the one done in short cartoon vignettes between Ep II and Ep II to be the real Clone Wars show. I Love how it ends with Obi-Wan and Anakin racing off to save Palpatine. So it leads right into Episode III.
After watching this video I realised I hate the new Clone Wars show mostly because it contradicts so much stuff I learned from other media about Star Wars universe. I still think the show has many flaws and is pretty childish and boring at times, but it had many amazing moments. 2003 is absolutely superior tho. Raw, funny, stylish... Who can forget such scenes as Grievous introduction, Ventress starfighter chase, battle of Coruscant, ARC troopers capturing the cannon, Obi Wan vs Durge... New show has NONE of that. At least for me.
"none" you should rewatch all seasons mate. It is childish only until season 1 but after that it got dark and deep. The 2003 one is fun to watch but no where deep or dark like the 2008 one.
I strongly disagree. It could be rather dark and deep at times, but still, too shallow. It was like 'Disney deep', 'Disney dark', even before they came into picture. For example the scene on Umbara (btw best part of new show, hands down, one that I would consider putting on par with older show moments) where clones find out they have been shooting at their own men... I saw it coming from miles away, it felt soo melodramatic, was trying to hammer the 'Clones are people too, they have emotions' message SO GODDAMN HARD! I get it. It bores me seeing it again and again. I liked it, but despite the message, not for it. I felt like a little kid that never had their favorite character die in a show, so they tried to give me that experience here and make me feel it. But perhaps I just didnt like the characters much to begin with. I know that I'm in a minority in this and if you enjoy it, more power to you, don't let me, stranger on the internet, bitter your opinion on the show or yourself for enjoying it.
TCW is darker than the movies. It even has a censored scene were Savage decapitates 5 black sun leaders. There are more deaths than in any normal kids show. Like Pre Vizsla getting decapitated by Maul or 4 deathwatch members also losing their heads to Ahsoka. Ventress impales a clone and a republican guard. It also covers darker themes like slavery, there was even a scene where a Zygerrian drops a bunch of t Twi'leks to their deaths just to prove to Obi Wan that his existence as slave was hopeless. TCW has a lot of great acs like mortis, umbara or deception. These stories added a lot to the characters development of the overall story. Most of the original clone wars is juts a bunch of random battle scenes with incredibly overpowered characters. I think making the clones human and giving them, a feel of brotherhood was a good choice. It makes order 66 more tragic as the good friends who betray their generals. Without that distinction they wouldn’t be more than droids without the metal. They couldn’t kill the main characters of the show, because some of them appear in later movies. But many new introduced characters died like Savage, mother talzin, Satine, ventress, domino squad, etc.
16:33 This is an important point, as Order 66 comes off as more or less a conspiracy in TCW, when in the EU it was an open, if perhaps not widely known fact. TCW itself shows Jedi going against the interests of the Republic in the cases of Barriss Offee and Pong Krell, and we had further examples in the EU of Tol Skor, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos, and technically Assajj Ventress, although she turned to the dark side well before the Clone Wars began. In fact, what happens in the TCW canon if the Republic NEEDS to execute Order 66 on a Jedi General OUTSIDE Palpatine's purge? They sure as hell can't use the brain chips then, or else a significant portion of the GAR's leadership in the field will be killed, and having the Republic lose the war or be forced to negotiate a peace was NOT part of Palpatine's master plan.
It doesn’t even matter anymore. Filoni has his way and has blazed through canon. And yet the supposed fandom gets mad whenever anyone crticises either Filoni or the destruction of consistent canon.
Why do we keep relegating The Clone Wars to Disney canon? Whether or not The Clone Wars is part of Legends, it was never a Disney creation. It was Lucasfilm all the way until Disney up and cancelled it.
@@nathang6376 I don't exactly consider it a Disney creation (Though even that's a bit iff, since Disney not only finished it, but also significantly expanded on it with Rebels and Bad Batch), but I do consider it only a part of the new continuity, because it contradicts the continuity of the old EU too much.
I like both TCW and what I've seen/read from the multimedia project but I always viewed them as separate stories and enjoyed each of them on their own merits
I absolutely love the Clone Wars, almost as much as Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes Back. But, it cannot be decided how much of a problem it is for legends. I have just started reading some of the Multimedia Project books, and they are great. Both timelines definitely should be seperated.
As a TCW and CW fan and as someone who has consumed both Legends and Canon content, I agree even tho I thought TCW had already been wiped out of Legends after Disney declared the Legends thing. Also you messed up in a few places, Maul's story is finally over, he was killed by Obi-wan in Tatooine in S3 of Rebels, they already established in Canon Mandalorians got separated by clans and made everyone to be a Mandalorian in The Mandalorian Disney plus series, and I don't think TCW fans would be outraged by this video (or at least from what I've seen here and in other places)
@SpectreDC Legends from the start should have been declared an alternate universe like George said he thinks of it as. There should be 3 universes with a hybrid between canon and legends being the main universe.
Honestly, I feel like Canon Assajj is more interesting than her Legends counterpart, but I also think that since they changed so much about her, they should have made her a new character. (Only the name matches up, really.)
Waaait a sec, from a making of video i saw on TCW, i remember dave felloni sayn that it was georges idea to bring maul back. And for Dooku being tired of her, thats not true. Palpatine orders him to kill her because her power was growing. An for morraban, that was georges idea too, as far as i remember, again taken from a Video i saw about the making of. And, ist it possible to just ignore TCW from legends? I think its great to have 2 timelines actually, i mean how many franchies are there wehre we can choose a timeline we like?
We all know from the numerous special editions that, George is a man who changes his mind... a lot, so it isn't entirely impossible that he had a change of heart on the subject. Also, if you recall, I said he "originally wasn't a fan of the idea of his characters being resurrected", with "originally" implying that he could very well have changed his mind while working on TCW. The mistake with Dooku being "tired of her" was pointed out to me by another viewer, and while I admitted the error, also posed the possibility of her exit from the Separatists being a bit to abrupt, which is the sense I was basically trying to convey in the video. And you are indeed correct, George Lucas did suggest to Filloni that Korriban's name should be changed because he didn't want fans to get it confused with Coruscant, However, doesn't mean I didn't think the name change was silly, and frankly a bit insulting if you think the fans are too dumb to differentiate. Lastly, I've been ignoring TCW from Legends since before Legends was branded Legends lol, and there's even a popular Reddit theory going around that TCW is simply a series of Republic propaganda-holos meanwhile the Clone Wars Multi-Media Project is what actually happened. A fun theory, yet, officially TCW is still considered legends, which is why I made this video, basically saying "If Legends is to be continued as an alt-time line, this is how it should be continued." Anyways, glad you support the idea of 2 Timelines, I only wish Disney did haha.
There’s also the possibility that Felloni decided to blame controversial decisions on Lucas so everyone would just go with it, but that seems a little too malicious for someone as apathetic about the EU as him.
Deranfan, i agree because i remember having seen that the Producers mentioned taht Lucas told them to ignore existing lore if it prevents a good storie to be told Red Jay, I think this is unfair, Lucas was involved with TCW and every major decision was based on his ok.
"You may join the Council, but we do not grant you the rank of master."
"Dude, you knighted me days after I slaughtered a whole village."
"Take a seat."
Wrong they knighted him 7 weeks after and the Jedi have no idea about the tusken raiders and yoda isnt sure
@@saberiandream316 Yes but we are not told how fast he can evolve an Filoni has thought it was quick
@@saberiandream316 And why her being knocked unconscious so much (at least in earlier seasons) has no real or at least on-screen repercussions.
And anyone dismisses this as, "bottom of the barrel" doesn't get the point of bad writing here, or anywhere else in the show. :/
@@saberiandream316 @Saberian Dream (disclaimer overall I prefer the old EU just not the Clone wars era) first 2 sentences are PR B.S. Time travel is Rebels fault not TCW. The videos argument is flawed. of course the kaminoans say clones are blindly obeying orders because they want the Republic sold on their products. Think of it like this, a shopkeeper says a phone can last for ever but of course it doesn't because there is no such thing as a perfect product they are just trying to make it look that way. As for Ashoka aside from Mara Jade she is the greatest female character in fiction, she makes Anakin's fault believable when she leaves the order. As for the clones they are actual people in the Clone wars show. Why do some commit treason: mutations like cut, and observations like slick, who betrayed the Republic because he learnt the truth, check out Geetslys video on this if you don't believe me. Whereas the Clones in the old EU, I don't care about them because they are faceless throw away heroes, lazy lazy lazy! Fives, Echo, Rex, Jesse and Kix have development. They show independence on Umbara because they are not perfect products or products, Fives says it outright and that's when they start showing independence, and I take Fives' word over the greedy shopkeepers on Kamino. As for the chips, George didn't have them in revenge of the Sith because he didn't have time, and if you finally watched the final season of the show like you and your blind nostalgia driven fanboys say, you would learn that the chips don't drive the clones insane (that was caused by the malfunction of the chip in season 6), in fact they are just a safeguard for loose canons like say Rex and Fives. Also it is never said that order 66 is the only order so that is invalid. Order 66 in the EU is even lazier then the Clones writing. I mean a coded message LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZYBRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but clearly I cannot teach you this through these links geetslys can:
th-cam.com/video/e6pgwNDHd3M/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/_6m6hy4z07g/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/J4AXQLjj-zE/w-d-xo.html
@Ellisar Atranimus (disclaimer overall I prefer the old EU just not the Clone wars era and TCW is not perfect) first 2 sentences are PR B.S. Time travel is Rebels fault not TCW. The videos argument is flawed. of course the kaminoans say clones are blindly obeying orders because they want the Republic sold on their products. Think of it like this, a shopkeeper says a phone can last for ever but of course it doesn't because there is no such thing as a perfect product they are just trying to make it look that way. As for Ashoka aside from Mara Jade she is the greatest female character in fiction, she makes Anakin's fault believable when she leaves the order. As for the clones they are actual people in the Clone wars show. Why do some commit treason: mutations like cut, and observations like slick, who betrayed the Republic because he learnt the truth, check out Geetslys video on this if you don't believe me. Whereas the Clones in the old EU, I don't care about them because they are faceless throw away heroes, lazy lazy lazy! Fives, Echo, Rex, Jesse and Kix have development. They show independence on Umbara because they are not perfect products or products, Fives says it outright and that's when they start showing independence, and I take Fives' word over the greedy shopkeepers on Kamino. As for the chips, George didn't have them in revenge of the Sith because he didn't have time, and if you finally watched the final season of the show like you and your blind nostalgia driven fanboys say, you would learn that the chips don't drive the clones insane (that was caused by the malfunction of the chip in season 6), in fact they are just a safeguard for loose canons like say Rex and Fives. Also it is never said that order 66 is the only order so that is invalid. Order 66 in the EU is even lazier then the Clones writing. I mean a coded message LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZY LAZYBRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but clearly I cannot teach you this through these links geetslys can:
th-cam.com/video/e6pgwNDHd3M/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/_6m6hy4z07g/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/J4AXQLjj-zE/w-d-xo.html
It's so easy for Lucasfilm to just say "TCW isn't part of Legends" but the reality is, they just don't care.
Why would they?
@@schocktrooper7557 Idk. It would be nice.
sikid4000 But big company’s mostly care about the money. And legends is a small target audience that is not going to be the great moneymaker.
@@schocktrooper7557 Saying something is non canon isn't a big deal and doesn't cost them money. What are you on about?
sikid4000 What? I said legends will not bring Disney the big money they want.
I was one of those people who love TCW but hate the current canon and desperately tried to fit TCW into Legends but after watching your videos i came to the painful realization that it's simply impossible.
Saberian Dream You know what's. That sounds like a good idea.
Pure legends timeline: Excludes TCW and it's tie ins, including its legends comics, games, and books.
Canon timeline: TCW and it's tie in material are 100% canon.
Third party canon: Legends is canon but the clone wars multimedia project is not and is replaced by TCW and its legends tie ins entirely (with some exceptions), disregarding It's Disney canon tie ins.
Good. Let the hate flow through you.
@@obitwokenobi9808 I'm moreso in the 3rd party cannon. TCW is my favorite SW property so I'm ok with it.
You can fit bits and pieces of it in. You just have to dial back several bits of it. and kinda play pick-and-choose. Hell I'll even steal a few things from full Disney canon here and there if I like a ship design or trooper armor or even a planet.
As far as I can understand it, there should be/are basically 2 and 1/2 canons/timelines: 1. The original Expanded Universe/ 'Legends' canon 2. The Disney canon 3. The 'new', post-2008, Dave Filoni created, Clone Wars movie, TV show, & related content 'canon'.
Dave Filoni's Clone Wars (I refuse to consider it to be truly George Lucas' project, since he basically rubber-stamped what Filoni & co. already created) should be only considered 1/2 of a canon / semi-complete canon because it only covers the Clone Wars era, while simultaneously having ties to & contradicting the other 2 canon timelines.
I personally consider Legends/E.U. to be the true, original canon; considering that the way Disney is going, they are starting to let Filoni muck-up their own pre-manufactured, corporate-created canon. Also, despite what younger generations of Star Wars fans & those who have accepted the new canon(s) may think, George Lucas did have more of a hands-on, collaborative approach with other content creators in the old, pre-2008 E.U. . I can't really think of any other franchises (other than possibly Star Trek & Dr. Who) where this much conscious effort was made for fans & by fans to participate in a grand narrative of such size and scope to create a coherent multi-faceted tale. Previously this was relegated to only novels or comic series alone being made coherent within a given media franchise.
It is my firm conviction that without the trailblazing work the Star Wars E.U. undertook, that modern-day E.U.-style franchises such as Halo, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, D.C. Universe, many Anime-based multimedia projects, etc. would not even have been made possible.
2003 clone wars grievous was cool af
This video gets so much hatred and dislikes cause its the bitter truth.
@@SwagokuLion I agree, not many people looked into the EU much to see the flaws of TCW, possible due to the prequel bashing at the time.
@Ellisar Atranimus "D'awww who's an angry little moron who doesn't understand how commissioning something to be done works. You are, yes you are! "
@Ellisar Atranimus Well, when it fits...
@Ellisar Atranimus Except it does. "How sad for you."
I agree that The Clone Wars shouldn’t be considered part of Legends. Too many contradictions and no retcons to explain them, like what happened to explain the contradictions between the prequels and the Thrawn trilogy. I always considered the original Clone Wars to be Legends, even though it doesn’t perfectly fit in either. It fits in better than the 2008 series, anyway.
but lucasfilm cleverly explained the cotradictions between the Thrawn bokks and Prequels so therr technically are no contradictions between then today.
TCW isn't canon to the movies either. Since it contradicts those too, or at least it shouldn't be.
I like the show, and I think it does enough good that between the retcons introduced in later EU works (including in post-RotJ works) and some creative headcanon, it's worth being included. And I didn't grow up with the show. I saw the 2008 movie in theaters when I was in college, which put me off from watching the series until two years ago. And by then, the Disney timeline made it look bloody brilliant and a perfect fit with old Star Wars by comparison. Yeah, it inherently doesn't fit with the Old EU, but I can put in the mental work without too much trouble.
Unlike just about everything made by Disney. Like Rebels. Or the Sequels. Or Solo.
AzureKnight2 Rebels isn’t that bad
sikid4000 it is no reason why it shouldn’t be
Yes! Yes! Yes! I agree with you 100%!!! Star Wars EU was at its peak during the Clone Wars MultiMedia Project! Star Wars was perfect from 2002 - 2007
"Dooku gets fed up with her" No, Darth Sidious ordered the death/elimination of Asajj Ventress. Dooku even attempted to reason with Sidious.
Regardless, her exit from the role of "Dooku's Chief Dark Acolyte" (in TCW she's basically the only one, we don't see anyone like Tol Skorr, Sora Bulq, Kadrian Sey, Sev'rance Tann or any of his other Acolytes in the show) seemed extremely abrupt and out of no where. That's the sense I was trying to convey.
Captain Fordo True, maybe they did not convey the sequence well. However, it still was not Dooku's idea.
Ashan Bhatoa th-cam.com/video/Faz3aNUfMFQ/w-d-xo.html indeed
Ashan Bhatoa do you seriously care that much?
What's funny is originally it was his idea in legends and in the new canon he was ordered to kill her for literally no reason. Studious said she was a threat but he knew he would already abandon Dooku by the end of the war so there is no point in him caring about the puppet of his own puppet. He simply had no reason to order her death other than to make a ventress centered ark.
The EU always remained somewhat consistent through careful, strategically-placed retcons. The problem with TCW isn't that it broke canon, but that it broke canon beyond its capacity for self-repair.
That and it broke canon.
@@FMK03 Plenty of things in the EU violated parts of canon, which is why the tier system worked so well. It let us filter out the more lore-breaking parts of the EU. Where TCW fucked things up was when it was placed above C-Canon. If it had been lower-tier, we might not even be having this conversation.
@@jaffarebellion292 Yes, I'm well aware of the lower tiers of canon within the EU. I'm saying TCW doesn't have any of that and it not only broke canon when it comes to the EU, but also the canon of the films.
@@FMK03 Fair enough. I do still think the EU can survive a lot of canon-breaking. It just couldn't survive said canon being broken by a nuke dropped right over the Clone Wars MMP. If it had been lower-tier, the MMP would've taken priority and we'd be fine, but they stupidly decided to create a whole new tier of canon just to write off any inconsistencies.
And even then, there were books and stories within the EU that reconciled the conflicting events.
I’m really glad you went over the Maul problem. It makes much more sense that he’s actually dead. Personally I love the old wounds comic and kinda include it in my own head canon lol. But still he’s pretty dead in the EU which imo is the superior canon!
He was alive there too, but only after his reintroduction in TCW, his death happened on tatooine, but in very different ways between rebels and the comic. Neither is canon to legends or canon in my opinion anyway, it makes NO SENSE that he survived the ordeal on naboo
@@DIEGhostfish i know
He said Lucas wanted him dead and that Lucas wasn't a fan of resurrections, but if I'm correct, he was going to be the main villain of *his* sequels.
As someone who enjoys both canon (especially Filoni’s work) and legends (especially Traviss’ work), I think it’s bizarre that TCW is counted in Legends. It fits in perfectly with _Rebels_ and works very well with the films, but doesn’t work at all in Legends. What’s weird is that it would be so simple to fix. Lucasfilm just has to say “TCW isn’t part of Legends”.
Plus, we get two seperate versions of how the Clone Wars played out. I think that’s pretty cool.
Clone Wars was confirmed as Canon, though. Has been since forever.
Rebels sure, but I dunno if TCW really fits in with the movies all that well. The amount of times Obi-Wan and Anakin face Count Dooku in TCW doesn't really fit with Obi-Wan's "This time we'll do it together." And Ahsoka being absent from Revenge of the Sith is incredibly distracting. You can tell when watching Revenge of the Sith that Ahsoka is not a part of this universe. And what was it Vader said in A New Hope? "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." Ironically, I feel that Starkiller from The Force Unleashed fits in better with the movies than Ahsoka does
Clone Wars is canon..
Yes, but its continuity doesn't match up with the movies well at all.
Explain how, because at this point it seems like you've formed this opinion out of conjecture.
I would love to see legends and canon grow as equals. If both could exist at the same time, both producing their own timelines would be perfectly fine. And quite frankly, it would be kind of awesome.
Saberian Dream that and look what he did to Grievous I went form a Jedi slaying badass and a master tactician to a weak pushover pussy it just ain’t right
Ha! If only it were possible, which I'd love to see. Sadly after SWTOR is finished there won't really be anything new for Legends, and seems Disney and Lucasfilm are fine with that.
Lol nope! One is a cancer on the brand!
@@EternalEmperorofZakuul k
No Cannon is only a master of evil!
"So concerned, I wrote a letter." Little did we know that there was never any hope. Disney has completely destroyed star wars permanently, leaving only Legends as anything of value.
One of my biggest grudges on TCW is Ahsoka. First, there's absolutely no clue in the OC that Anakin had an apprentice, Obi Wan would have to know such a thing, and it would've been a big deal. Secondly, Anakin in the OC was portraited as strong Jedi that let anger consume him, becoming Darth Vader, and in the Prequels (Which, for me, have lots of bad qualities, some regarding Anakin himself, but regardless of that, I'll proceed) he is a cocky - but really skilled - young Padawan and later on Jedi Knight, constantly arguing with his master, so I don't see how a man like that could ever have the capability to teach a young Jedi-Aspiring girl with the consent of his master and the rest of the Masters
He shouldn't of even been leading men, did you see how many clones got killed in his suicide tactics? Only the meaningful clones survived
@@weegee_darthno4045 The irony is that Multimedia Anakin was FAR more competent in leadership, as well as being more empathetic with the clones due to being a slave himself earlier on. It's why he was one of the only respected Jedi by the intelligent clones (Along with Obi-Wan), and why they adored him as Vader.
Another detail is Palpatine. Palps partially designed the Clone Wars to be a method to build up Anakin to the point that he would be the face of the galaxy when the Empire took over, and he would eventually become the true Sith Lord (Palpatine wasn't as power-hungry as Disney makes him seem, he even admits to wanting Anakin to surpass him in power in RotS). Considering how much of a pain in the ass Kenobi was (He was meant to die numerous times, first to Maul, then to the Geonosians, then to Dooku, and 20 more assassination attempts during the actual war. He was eventually kept around since his duo with Anakin made the latter even more famous), it is unthinkable that he would let Anakin have an apprentice to potentially distract him. In the first month of the war, Palps would have Ashoka kidnapped and beaten to death for daring to come close to Anakin.
It wasn't really "with the consent of his master and the rest of the masters", but actually them assigning Ahsoka to him
As much as enjoyed TCW in my childhood, it infuriates me more and more how much damage it did to the EU timeline 😕
Ditto
Dead set
whats more annoying most lore breaking changes are unnecassery like just let anakin be a fellow padawan to ahsoka and maybe just maybe depict the actual crucial events in the clone wars
@@laisphinto6372 indeed
That's why I wish Lucas had just given Faloni complete control. The guy clearly knew about the EU, but everytime he tried to import a plot line Lucas wanted to change it. Like when Faloni tried to import the Jango Comic for the Mandalorians, but Lucas told him he couldn't because he didn't consider Jango a Mandalorian. So Faloni could keep Clan Vizla & Deathwatch but had to retcon everything else.
George himself even said TCW was not on the same level of canon as the movies:
“In the end, the movie - and, by extension, the 100-episode TV show for which it serves as a prologue - is not a Skywalker story, Lucas insisted. "The epic itself is basically about one man. You pass through a lot of things, but you never get to look at it. [With 'Clone Wars'], we're not burdened by the mythological underpinnings. We get to go more places," Lucas said. "The story about Anakin Skywalker and his fall into the dark side and redemption by his son, that's finished. It was started when he was 10, it ends when he died. There's no more story to tell. All that stuff is really not part of what this is." Stylistically and tonally, however, the film almost takes place in an entirely separate universe."
TCW was also listed as T-canon which was not on the same level as G-canon.
Where was this stated?
I remember part of this interview! I just wish I knew which one it was.
@@AshanBhatoa George Lucas on MTV
This also lines up with the original intention of the show, which was to make it a stand-alone, almost Infinities-like anthology series, fairly detached from both the films and the EU. Somewhere along the line though that intention was lost, which is what led to wacky stuff like Ahsoka getting mentioned in an EU novel, and the show's pacifist Mandalorian faction being confirmed as canonical by The Essential Guide to Warfare.
tl;dr Star Wars kinda fell apart after 2008.
It’s not just the fact that TCW contradicted the Eu that everyone has a problem with, it’s also the sheer fact that the changes made in TCW are really lame and underwhelming compared to what came before.
cough "mandalorians" cough and the bad batch is kind of less cooler version of the commandos
@@JonP1245 Mandalorians aren’t very much changes at all, the only difference is that a pacifist faction had risen to power on Mandolore itself, which frankly is expected. However most Mandos in the galaxy live some form of a warrior lifestyle.
And no, the Bad Batch aren’t in any way a “less cool” version of commandos, we literally see a Gregor (a commando) in TCW as well as another squad of them.
@@justchilling704 I don't think it makes sense for a pacifist faction to be made up of people (humans) with a single set of phenotypes (blue eyes, blonde hair, light skin). Also, I don't think it makes sense for the faction to be composed of a single species.
@@vr5076 I strongly disagree. The things you list are exactly why factions like the New Mandalorians would come to be.
@UCNg5XL17rziX-FU5xi08NFQ Perhaps, you actually have a good question there, I wouldn’t mind if Star Wars explored such a possibility.
I love TCW with every fiber of my being but sometimes I miss the the CWMMP days.
Finally someone that loves Both, like me, 😊
literally this
I'm getting tired of people complaining about the EU having contradictory stories, while Disney's new canon will for sure be totally consistent and make sense. As shown by TLJ, they can't even keep the continuity between films straight, let alone between different forms of media.
Cyrus Ambrose What did TLJ do to contradict TFA, exactly?
Five Shots No Kills 1. The entire state of the galaxy is disregarded and the ending of TFA's Resistance victory is forgotten. 2. Kylo was supposed to be trained after TFA. He wasn't. There was no formal training of any sort. And no, the thing with Rey does not count. 3. All of the Imperials are somehow now in pursuit of the Resistance, after nearly being killed on Starkiller Base. 4. Poe goes from trusting Leia as a bold leader, but is now willing to go against her orders. 5. Rey's backstory is noticeably changed, since there were clear suggestions that Rey was someone special and known to the other characters. 6. Finn goes from switching sides in TFA to being willing to abandon the Resistance. Overall: These are just some of the major ones I could think of off the top of my head. If you like the film, that's fine, but it's clear that the films are not quite cohesive.
Star Wars canon is made of contradictions, like how Darth Vader goes from having killed Luke's father to _being_ Luke's father; or how Leia went to be the Princess and a potential love interest to Luke to being Luke's sister; or how Darth went from being a name to being a Sith title.
It's best not to worry about it and just enjoy what you like
MakiPcr Great point. Always kind of weirded me out that Obi Won in ANH calls him “Darth” like that’s his first name and not his title.
Bleed Green
Well, he also called Grevious a "general" during the Clone Wars, and he called Dooku a "count" during the Clone Wars.
I know, it may sound strange at first, since "Darth" is not a Earth-word, and we do not recognise it as a title at first, but honestly it makes perfect sense
1:39 Poor Thrawn, having to stare at human motivational art posters, trying to figure out what they mean...
Oh my, that amount of dislikes and negative comments.
It's like people didn't get the point of this video.
TCW is cool in my opinion, but it really did not fit in EU.
I think they do, they just disagree with it (tho I am not sure if you can "disagree" with facts)
@@theketaminefrog6366 Unless you have your own? You can't. We're clearly dealing with failed Sith here.
@@harryunderwood9387 how can you have "your own facts"? I though that facts are objective and the same for everyone.
@@theketaminefrog6366 Honestly I'm not sure (pure Legends fan here, took me a while though). I just used my BSc knowledge, where new details come to light to disprove a theory - in this case, perhaps making actually solid reasons for why at least parts of TCW can fit into Legends would be a good place to start. Maybe if the people who disliked the vid could comment, we'd have an actual discussion here. Your guess is as good as mine.
There’s only one Clone Wars show and it’s the micro-series made from 2003-2005. George Lucas created it with Genndy Tartakovsky and was an Executive Producer on the show and had as much involvement as he could while making Revenge of the Sith. It’s still a great to watch all these years later.
No he didn't.
Star Wars Insider issues alone literally disprove your assertion.
Lucas had exponentially more involvement in TCW.
@@AshanBhatoa Lucas had near zero involvement in TCW, please rewatch the videos Fordo has made. Lucas' involvement pretty much begins and ends with wanting ahsoka to die.
@@AshanBhatoaexcept Lucas was barely involved with TCW after the first 2 Seasons. Also bringing up Lucas' involvement isn't a flex, as he did help Filoni in introducing all the dumb BS people dislike about TCW and was mostly involved when TCW was at its worst.
I respect Lucas and I think he's a good idea man, but the dude has made a lot of mistakes in terms of lore and characters since the OT ended.
Most of the arguments I've gotten in about TCW were of people arguing that TCW was made specifically for Legends, so it shouldn't be in canon at all.... Which has always baffled me
There is a prophecy of a Chosen One who would get rid of TCW from the Legends timeline, restoring balance and continuity to Legends....
Captain Fordo, you are the Chosen One.
Captain Fordo and Matt Wilkins
I feel like TCW in legends would be like a dramatized historical documentary, made in the new republic. getting a lot of events out of order or wrong because many details where lost, or destroyed by the empire by that time, and glorifies a lot of leaders that would be a part of the rebellion. like making anakin a lot more cool in it to respect luke skywalker's father, and claiming that the clones had chips in them to make them seem good because some clones probably fought in the rebellion.
That is an excellent theory and I’ve been promoting one similar to that
Until we get to the Bad Batch
@@mercury2157 Bad Batch isn’t part of Legends so it isn’t an issue
That makes a lot of sense.
I actually have an interesting fan theory that could fix tcw without the propaganda theory: **I HAVE NOT READ FOTJ so please take my theory with a grain of salt**
Okay, so my fan theory is that TCW SOLELY takes place ion the Disney canon. However, when Abeloth was locked away, she was not only banished into the unknown regions but, the legends version of the unknown regions so that way the world of the Disney canon would be safe from her. Unfortunately, her presence in the legends canon caused space and time to distort. For example, history began to change to reflect the Disney canon. his would explain the contradictions between tcw and legends AND the novels being rerwritten to fit within tcw. Plus, you would never EVR have to erase abeloth
The Show is good but i agree that The Clone Wars doesnt fit in the Expanded Universe timeline
The show contradicts many things and elements such as the story of Quinlan Vos from the Republic comics or The Republic Commando Game and the Novels or the Mandalorians
It doesn’t contradict the republic commando game to my knowledge
Saberian Dream Ahsoka isn’t a plot hole
@@jacktheflash8478 If you only have the Republic Commando game then you are correct, yet you do not only have that game. The book series by the same name, written by Karen Traviss, clearly does conflict with the series in more than just one way.
1) Mandalor (the planet) wasn't bombed all to hell.
2) The capital is Keldabe, which is a "rural" town of only a few million people.
3) The Mandalorians never became pacifists.
4) The Clans never accepted some kind of nobility to rule over them.
5) The clones never had any chips implanted to keep them obedient, lest the escape/desertion by elements of Omega Squad and other Republic Commando units as well as the Null batch of ARK troopers would not have been possible, the way it has been portrayed.
6) Mandalor was allied with the Confederation but escaped retribution from the Empire due to the Beskar production on the planet, which the Empire needed.
You see where I am going with this? yes all of this is mentioned in the video so let me clarify: these books expand on the game. it does not exist in a void.
Marius Lorson who said it existed in a void?
@@jacktheflash8478 Your original post does imply that. You say that TCW does not contradict Republic Commando - which it does not as long as you only look at the game itself but the game does not exist by itself.
That KotOR soundtrack in the background gives me nostalgia goosebumps!
Carolus Magnus that was republic commando I'm pretty sure
clark willis there was also Republic Commando music there sure, but at 7:05 I immediately recognised that classic eerie KotOR 2 music
Heard plenty of RC soundtrack in there. There might've been some KOTOR but I probably wouldn't recognize it.
I heard that Kotor music. Nostalgia for years
I'm someone who would have never known about the EU if it wasn't for TCW. That being said, I too don't see why people want to keep both shows in the same timeline ( unless they also include the COMPNOR explanation).
That's all you really can do if your gonna include it. Basically allowing you to headcanon any ep or info that contradicts stuff.
It's pretty funny to see TCW fans lose their minds over THEIR show getting bagged on for once.
Five Shots No Kills The only I'm seeing lose their mind is the uploader.
Lmao see, ^^ poor guy can't take factual criticism.
The micro series destroys it, also nice to see star wars fans adapting Legends material like Jaina vs Caedus and Old Wounds cartoon.
I love The Clone Wars and 2003 Clone Wars. While I prefer the CGI show a tiny bit more, I definitely agree with Commander Frodo about The Clone Wars should not be a part of the Extended Universe.
@@sebas8225 Dude thank you so much helping me discover this!
Correction disney disregards the EU until thier unimaginative hacks need a new idea.
Indeed
Well i guess this finishes 10 years of trying to wrap my hand around the inconsistencies, (adding some major ones aswell), if only 10 years old me had saw this. As a fan of both series having TCW stay in the disney canon (as much as i hate it) is such a simple solution. Also the way you talk made this a pretty enjoyable watch
I think my voice is quite annoying actually lol, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. There were a few things I regrettably didn't touch upon in this video, like Quinlan Vos and Bariss Offee. Quinlan vos had this awesome story arc throughout the Star Wars: Republic comics where he was a double agent, working for both Dooku and the Republic and we got to see him struggle with himself as he skirted between the light side and the dark side, TCW didn't touch up on any of that and basically made him a cameo character, like they did with Delta Squad from Republic Commando. Bariss Offee on the other hand was a cool character in her own right. In the Medstar novels Barriss spends much of her time behind the lines, putting her jedi healing abilities to good use, as she originally trained as a jedi healer, working with Republic medics to help save her own clone soldiers. TCW ignores all of this and basically uses her character as a plot device to blame Ahsoka for a bomb plot on the jedi temple, and get her kicked out of the jedi order, thus solving the issue of ahsoka not appearing in revenge of the sith (Dave should have just killed her off). turning this Jedi healer into a bloodthirsty terrorist, which makes complete sense right?
but yeah as the video got to be over 30 minutes long, i had to cut a lot of stuff out
"Quinlan vos had this awesome story arc throughout the Star Wars: Republic comics where he was a double agent, working for both Dooku and the Republic and we got to see him struggle with himself as he skirted between the light side and the dark side"
Funny thing about that. I read that unaried episodes of TCW were going to have essentially the same plot. Vos was going to go undercover to try to assassinate Dooku, get turned to the dark side by him, get redeemed back to the light side, and then go undercover *again* to try to assassinate Dooku *again* .
Ah, good old Dave Filoni. When he wasn't too busy utterly destroying the Legends timeline, he still had enough time to copy its plots and try to pass them off as his own.
@@SuperTweedles Is it really that simple to just retcon some part of the books that reference TCW?
@@SuperTweedles Or is it better as an s-canon?
This has blown my mind. I grew up with TCW but after looking extensively at the multi media project, I honestly prefer the multi media project a lot more. Awesome video.
I'm a fan of both timelines. I do think you're idea is better, but I think Disney is keeping it there to keep the Legends Canon off balance and broken so they can use as an excuse to say hey our stuff is better.
Precisely! Whether intentional or not on Disney's part, leaving TCW in the Legends time is essentially doing just that, causing continuity errors Legends, making it appear far weaker to those who would show potential interest in it, while meticulously policing their canon to minimize continuity errors. While not the soul reason for New Canon fan's claim of "The EU had No Continuity", it is one of the major factors that reconnected an entire era of star wars history and sending ripple effects through the rest of the time-line.
Patrick Cox "You are idea"?
Damia Savon Yes it may have had weird elements and just blatant horrible elements (Darth Sidious/Palpatine resurrected himself multiple times after the supposed Chosen One for filling his prophecy. . Plus continuity errors before TCW however, the EU is very interesting and very very Expansive.
They did a good job of fucking up their own canon, I mean they showed in The Last Jedi that weaponizing hyperdrives is possible - which calls into question all of the movies.... because if they could just do this all along then why didn't they? All of the star wars movies would be 30 minutes shorter. "death star? just ram a ship into it at the speed of light. That'll do the trick". There'd be less tension and less struggle. Flagships wouldn't be a thing because they'd just be huge targets, because they showed that shields aren't really effective against that. This concept basically breaks the universe because all of the major struggles in the movies could have been solved with just ramming a ship into it.
So we have a fucked up legends and canon lore ;)
+Damia Savon *I can see you have no clue what you're talking about - have you watched Revenge Of The Sith? Because Revenge Of The Sith established that General Grevious had never fought Obi-wan Kenobi before their duel on Utapau - TCW is Non-Canon.*
If you really think about it, it's probably a good thing that Disney no longer accepts the Expanded Universe as canon. They would probably take all of these stories and characters we've grown to love and ruin them seeing as to how they've been doing that with characters that exist within their current canon and stories they've come up with.
Truly a blessing in disguise
Absolutely true.
Exactly, frankly I'm fine with considering Star Wars a closed and finished project narratively speaking. If something from Disney comes out that I like that can fit in the EU, I might cherry pick it out for my own headcanon, otherwise it is basically done just like LOTR has been for decades, doesn't mean it can't be loved the same way.
If TCW wasn’t so popular would be considered a non-canon spin off.
As it should be
I always thought that TCW was it's own timeline, separate from Cannon and Legends.
fan9775 The TCW timeline.
Boi how could you think of thay
TCW is part of the canon timeline already.
That's where it belongs to me.
Clone Wars and the movies basically became Disney’s pillar to reinvent the Star Wars canon
I do like TCW, but I just kinda wish it was only in the canon timeline and not legends
I completely agree with everything mentioned in the video. TCW would have been better if Ahsoka Tano would be Plo Koon's Padawan who just tagged along with Anakin and Obi-Wan on a few missions and then have General Grievous, Dooku, or Ventress kill her. Keep TCW in Disney Canon and the multimedia project in Legends that simple and most importantly: CONTINUE LEGENDS.
The only thing I didn't like about the Clone Wars multimedia project was the fact that they never released Escape from Dagu(Shaak Ti novel) by William C. Dietz even though the events that took place in that novel were referenced in Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover and the novel was fully completed by never published and printed because of Yoda Dark Rendezvous.
The whole point they added Ahsoka was to have a better dynamic between Obi wan and Anakin. Her leaving the order is one of the reasons why Anakin started to distrust the Jedi order. It wouldn’t work with her as a Padawan of Plo Koon.
And legends is still being continued with SWTOR, but only because it’s an active MMO. I agree on that point legends should be continued in its entirety.
@@saberiandream316 yeah but ashoka leaving adds a personal element
@@Deranfan Whoa, how did she create a better dynamic between Anakin and Obi-Wan? They already had that without her. And seriously, the show would've been so much better without her. She is literally one of the worst written characters I have ever seen and all she does is trod on Anakin and Obi-Wan, as well as authority figures in general. And Anakin's distrust of the Jedi had nothing to do with Ahsoka leaving. Anakin literally said as she was leaving that there were times he thought of leaving too.
@@poppag8281 How exactly??
I personally really enjoy TCW, but I also feel like the legends continuity makes a lot more sense story-wise (like Anakin not having a padawan, Maul staying dead, not fighting Dooku so many times, etc). The canon version is fun and adventurous, but I believe the legends version fits better with the films and overall EU.
Yes
Although I love TCW alot, it does anger me that they destroy the Multi-media project's amazing cannon. I love them both alot
God I love this channel, thank you so much for this.
While I enjoyed TCW (for the most part), it definitely needs to just stay in the Disney canon.
Honestly i don't think TCW makes sense in Disney Canon either
@@matthewtuckman4447 mind explaining?
I don't know, while I agree it doesn't work in the Old EU, I think TCW is too good to ship off to the blighted hellscape that is the Disney Canon.
@@matthewtuckman4447 explain
The Clone Wars was around long before Disney ever purchased Lucasfilm. Just because it can't fit seamlessly into the EU, that doesn't mean it should get shoved off on the company that tried to cancel it for good.
Thanks for this. I always thought that they screwed up the timing royally. I thought that the TCW show took place in the last year and a half of the war. The montage after Anakin's knighting in the original clone wars animation was when the TCW show happened.
So I’m years late but I’m glad I noticed this recently. Kind of finally noticed it when I saw the renaming of Korriban to Moraband. It was really unnecessary, with the only excuse being “it sounded too similar to Coruscant.” I noticed it like 2 months ago and it’s been wrecking my brain.
That said, I still love George and Dave. They’re great people and great writers, I just wished they had a bit more respect for existing material (and when I mention George I mean his recently-published plan for his sequel trilogy).
you explained the truth that many younger star wars fans cant accept
Oh I accept it, I just don't care. I'm the type of guy to use headcanon rather than get caught up on one Canon over the other anyways. Will there be contradictions? Sure. But then there were numerous contradictions in Legends. Thrawn trilogy talk of clone wars contradicted by prequels. Boba Fett getting eaten by the same Sarlacc twice. There's even a contradiction in the video. Regular clone troopers were programmed to be 100 percent obedient yet several hesitated when given order 66? What? He says the brain chips is never mentioned in movies, and fair enough, but then neither is clone hesitation, even among commanders. All carry out their orders in movie without a moment's hesitation. Overall i find it best not to get worked up over these things and instead to use headcanon. Each to their own I suppose. Let's also mention Abeloth's character and her relation to TCW characters is very well established
@@ManiacMayhem7256 your right for sure, its all head canon at this point too many contradictions
We accept it, we literally just don't care, headcannon exists
@@kadegetslaid634 Hadcannon litterally ruins consitent writing
@@kadegetslaid634 says the guy who read Web toon fanfics instead of ACTUAL comics XD
I'm glad someone else has pointed out the flaws in The Clone Wars. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed that show. But I always thought they forced it a little too much, and that it was ultimatly saved by fan love of Ashoka Tano.
Compnor sounds like a brilliant idea hot damn.
The Clone Wars DESTROYED Anakins character all because they saw it as a quick fix. It's in his LORE to be bratty and confused. The Republic comics played to those strengths! TCW is a quick fix. Make him ROTS Anakin instead of AOTC Anakin. Why? Because it would shut non fans up. A horrifying quick fix.
Bless the EU.
@nikolai 1939 Obi Wan says, "He was the best starfighter in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior... (him talking to Luke about how he's becoming a good pilot) and he was a good friend." Obi Wan referring to Anakin as a good friend doesn't mean he doesn't have the flaws he does in Episode 2 and 3, it just means that Anakin was a good friend to him.
Because he was a whiny monk teenager at the time, tryna impress Padme, and also lost his mother later in the movie.
In the earlier scenes, I agree.
In the scene where he lost his mother, I don't agree, since losing a loved one can really affect someone and cause them to lash out.
@nikolai 1939 yeah.
Basically, in CWMMP they showed how the bratty teenager from episodie 2 became the confident and brave man from episodie 3. In TCW they just insert Anakin from ep 3 from the get go.
@@galaxydogenut9801 you can't defend a poorly written character from the movies just by saying oh that's what his personality is, he's supposed to be that way
The fact is that George Lucas didn't know how to write Anakin or any other character from that trilogy correctly and fucked it up. I would accept Anakin's upbringing from a hot tempered over emotional teen to a more mature and wiser young adult if we actually saw him grow and develop in these movies instead of having comics and novels as an excuse to cover up what Lucas couldn't do on screen
Btw I'm not blaming any of the writers from the comcis or novels, I totally understand what they had to do in their position between and after the movies. They basically had to cover up everything Lucas didn't do correctly
At this point, six years after this video, reviving Legends would be a DISASTER! Disney has made it clear that they are wholly incompetent of adapting the EU into Canon, let alone telling new, creative Canon stories. Thrawn, Death Troopers, Sidious' Revival, and a bustling handful of other cameos from beloved characters. Even concepts, such as Ben Skywalker being portrayed in an objectively inferior way in Disney Canon. As it stands, Legends exists in a perfect time capsule. It is untouched, undisturbed by Disney's idiocracy. There are periodic additions through BioWare/Broadsword on SWTOR and RPG sourcebooks, but overall the lore is the same as the day it was decanonized. Changing this would only further destroy the EU.
We must be willing to let go. The EU is dead, but that is good. It should not be reanimated so that Disney can manipulate its corpse. We can enjoy it for what it was, and hope that Disney doesn't bring it back just to destroy it.
Ben Skywalker(Luke’s son) doesn’t exist in Disney canon. Ben Solo is Han and Leia’s son
Getting rid of the EU is a blessing disguise
@@EternalEmperorofZakuul As much as it hurts to say, it is very true. The EU was saved because Disney was direspectful enough not to care about it.
@@EternalEmperorofZakuulwouldn’t you love to see Rey and Ahsoka teaming up into a Mary Sue duo?
Wouldn’t you love to see them girlbossing a Chinese Bootleg version of the Yuuzhan Vong while wielding yellow lightsabers? Oh boy it’d be sooooo cool and empowering to see these strong wahmen use the World Between Worlds to bitchslap Darth Revan for no reason
@@SolurVoludun would you love seeing transgender clone troopers
Dave Filoni destroyed the original EU.
Now he’s destroying the Disney Canon EU.
Dave one of those people who puts his idea above all others. Like KK.
I see anti sjw nitwits support him tho
Damn... I had no idea how much TCW show pissed on the Original EU so much...
On one hand I grew up with the show and it was my first introduction to Star Wars, but on the other hand, hearing all of these contradictions on Legends is really disheartening to hear.
Thanks for making this video dude. Some of the directions in Legends actually seemed to be more interesting and I might actually pick up the Legends Canon
I have the same experience as you.
I mean, Lucas pissed on the EU a lot of times, the canon was always a mess
@@guillesuperior ummm no. Dig deeper and you'll realize that isn't true. Heck, look at this guy's other channel Manda-lore and watch his Expanded Universe Exposed video
@@guillesuperior which is why he never considered the EU Canon to begin with and didn’t give a fuck if the stories or lore contradicted each other so long as they didn’t contradict his 6 movies
@@dilloon7626 The Palpatine line that stated that the Republic had 1000 years contradicted a lot of things at the time, and the EU eventually worked around it to make the line make sense
I agree with you that The Clone Wars shouldn't be included in the Legends canon, but as a fan of TCW, I disagree with many of your criticisms of the show.
I think the only real problem it had was that it was stepping on existing canon, and if you remove it from Legends it fixes the problem entirely.
but then TCW doesn't really fit in with the movies though. "This time we'll do it together." Oh, apart from when we fought him about 5 months ago, we did it together then. Or just over 6 weeks ago, that was together too. "When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." I mean, I know I had a padawan, and she called me master, buuuut.... Hell, just watch Revenge of the Sith, you can tell Ahsoka isn't a part of this universe
Skullcrusher430
George Lucas did specifically request for Ahsoka to be Anakin's apprentice, so yeah. I do agree with you that the legends timeline ironically aligns better with the films, but that doesn't stop the fact that TCW is considered canon. While some film dialogue does seem a bit odd, it never directly contradicts TCW.
"This time we will do this together"
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master."
"You fool, I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku"
While all these lines seem odd considering TCW, they don't contradict anything. "This time we will do this together" still can refer to episode II AOTC despite the other duels.
"When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master." While Anakin did have an apprentice he still was the rank of Jedi Knight, not Jedi Master, So, the quote can refer to this. Or the quote can simply mean that Vader has learned since his past defeat and surpassed Obi-wan. Either way, Anakin's mastery was less than what he had achieved as Vader.
"You fool, I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" I personally find it quite odd Grievous is stating this considering Obi-wan and Grievous fought numerous times in TCW, but Grievous could be simply stating this as an intimidation method.
So, while the original 6 films don't smoothly align with TCW as well they do with Legends, they don't really contradict TCW either.
Oh, I know that TCW is canon according to Lucasfilm, I just think its a shame that something that decided to not align itself as smoothly with the movies is considered canon, but the rest of the EU that didn't step on the movies toes at all is considered Legends. Although I suppose the movies themselves are contradictory to one another, Leia wouldn't remember her mother right after she was born. The Expanded universe only ever really contradicted itself, but when it did, they introduced a retcon here, a new explanation there, and everything was cleared up, and often cleared up really well. There were multiple different accounts of who stole the plans for the original Death Star, Kyle Katarn, Lethal Alliance, Battlefront 2 (the original), but the reason given was that the Empire had scattered the plans to keep them out of enemy hands, and R2-D2 was the one who pieced them together in A New Hope
I never said you didn't know TCW was canon.
Yeah, I do agree it is a bit of a shame that the stories of the legends aren't canon anymore despite all the connections to the films. But, on the bright side, the 6 films are still apart of legends continuity. As Captain Fordo said, it's perfectly fine to have separate cannons as long as both timelines are being taken care of. So, in its self, it really doesn't matter if a story is legends or cannon. These are just labels for two different timelines and the labels shouldn't affect one's enjoyment of the materials.
Skullcrusher430 Those are pretty nitpicky criticisms imho. You can actually make the same case with lines from the OT not meshing with the prequels that came after.
No matter how much I love TCW, it should be taken out from the Legends/EU continuity completely because it causes contradictions and glossed over 90%-80% of immersive Prequel-era content in that timeline. There is barely any Prequel stories through books and comics to go by in the New Canon timeline, and would love to those works regenerate and grow once again. What a gorgeous tapestry it was and eager to read some Clone Wars-era EU since I love reading.
All books, comics, and references to Filoni's Clone Wars (TCW) needs to be relegated to the Disney Canon timeline and stay out of the Expanded Universe.
Another thing I disliked about TCW was the derailment and atrociously motionless combat style of General Grievous. He can be a coward all he wants in Canon, but that doesn't the excuse the lack of evasive speed, agility, and endurance that was invested from mental decades of primitive warfare, as well as lightsaber training he received from Count Dooku in Legends. Those impressive feats from his Legends counterpart needs to be reinstalled back into Grievous, according to the functionality, design, and aesthetic of lightweight primitive cybernetics. He fights like a machine, but is still a competent warrior in that regard and do really admire.
Cheers to TCW and the beauty of the Clone Wars multimedia project if or when Lucasfilm/Disney decides to fix up those continuity errors. #CloneWarsGALORE
You inspire me.
Perhaps we should gather fans who think similarly, sit around a table and create a council of a well-structuted fan canon based on a consensus. Drawing inspiration from what was done in Antiquity during the canon councils for the Bible.
As an RPG player, every time I have to explain what kind of media my table will reference and what kind of media will be ignored. If we had a fan canon we could simply use "We use the fan canon defined by the Council of Fordo" etc.
I'm not kidding, we should work on that and publish in PDF.
I would like too. I grow up with CWMP even i didnt know that, and i especially love Traviss RC novels and how she portrayed clone was and mandalorian culture.
I'm a fan of both Disney Canon and EU versions of the clone wars, but I know those stories can't fit togheter, just remove TCW from Legends
Yee
the solution is that dave filoni clone wars should be in disney canon and clone wars multimedia should be considered eu
I thought after season 7 was announced it had moved to solely Disney canon?
I started watching TCW and loved it. In between season 2 and 3 I think, I wanted something to hold off my star wars addiction started reading the clone war omnibus comics and the Darth Bane novels to pass the time, getting my first introduction into the EU.
It was the undoing for my love of TCW.
By season 3 then 4 I gradually started to get confused by and argue with TCW over the continuity errors I'd been finding. By season 5, I was watching to rant, nothing more. I like many of the ideas and stories TCW has but there are too many problems for me to accept it in tandem with legends. It's created a mess that I'm still unraveling to this day. I didn't even know the nightsisters had been changed, so thank you for that.
Currupt Angel you did yourself a great diservice by thinking too much into what you were watching honestly. Seasons 4- the lost missions were the best piece of media I've ever consumed and just like you tcw had gotten me into legends i played kotor read the raven books the bane books and the plagius books and even through all that i thought tcw was still the most fun I've ever had. I really wish you'd watch it again without biased towards legends or canon... just enjoy it and may the force be with you.
john Calderon now that I watch it as Canon, not legends I can enjoy it more.
I just never liked the clones being too human, the droids too comedic, the terrible villain powerratings, and some of the in your face changes it made to legends.
For example, in season 5, by making barriss offee the villain, they changed her entire character as well as the chilling death legends gave her.
So now that I don't consider it changing the stories so much as a parallel series of events in the star wars multiverse, I've been enjoying TCW more in that I'm able to enjoy it at all.
really? I heard seasons 3-5 were the best?
@@poppag8281 As far as the show goes, if you can seperate the show from the books and comics, or haven't read said books and comics, they are....kind of. Compared to the first two seasons, the animation is a little better, they changed to a mostly linear timeline, (making the show much easier to follow) and Ahsoka is much more likable.
"...if your ok with what TCW threw out than you might as well be ok with the whole expanded universe to be thrown out."
dude... ouch...
That's jumping to conclusions, I know.
I always see it as people taking it way too seriously... For toys/games
Truth hurts... don't it?
@@saberiandream316 Harsh words but, sadly, true to an extent. It's not just the unretconnable differences between the Republic comics and Clone Wars-era novels (not to mention the movies) but also the simple fact that TCW is just too... childish, especially in its early seasons. The way politics is played out, the way the Separatists act like Saturday morning cartoon villains, it all just screams kids' stuff. That would have been fine as a YA timeline taking place somewhere to the side of the movie characters, but not as THE timeline.
@@RiverOfBlacklights He's basically saying it hurts someone tells you that, only because you like something, then it's because it did bad to another thing(s)
Well, I wasn't really into the old EU until I had already mentally placed TCW firmly in the new continuity, so I guess that's not wrong. I was okay with the old EU being thrown out of that continuity because it was never in that continuity for me to begin with. And you know what? So what?
everything about the 2003 clone wars is just better in every way.
i just miss when it was anakin and obi wan and no ashoka
Fuck Ahsoka
To be fair, when it comes to the Clone Wars timeline, it has always been fuzzy at best. The pivotal siege of Coruscant had two different versions: James Luceno's novel, Labyrinth of Evil, and the 2003 Clone Wars Tartakovsky cartoon. In the former, Anakin was chasing after Dooku, in the latter, he was investigating a Skakoan project to enslave natives and turn them into supersoldiers. These are two different versions of the same timeline. Right there, we have two conflicting works that can't both be true, and both of them were in the old Clone Wars EU.
Then there was the Karen Traviss novels that showed the Jedi in the most incompetent light possible, making them out to be buffoons when it came to military strategy and showing how the clones hated them and wanted to get rid of them. Her hatred of the Jedi is so strong that she basically was on the camp that they all deserved to die and they were shitty military leaders. She saw them as a bunch of slave drivers which were just as bad as the Nazis, when in reality, it was Jango Fett who allowed himself to be cloned to create a slave army for pay, and Darth Sidious/Palpatine was the only slave master the Clone Army had-which is why he had the authority to pull Order 66 on the Jedi. The Jedi merely guided and aided the Clone Army-they were as much slaves of the Republic as the Clone Army was, due to their oath to the Republic-something Traviss neglected to mention.
This stands in stark contrast to the rest of Legends, as well as the rest of the Clone Wars EU, which showed the Jedi to be fine generals who knew how to wage wars like the back of their necks. For example, the Galactic Battlegrounds game showed Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn and Echuu Shen-Jon as great military tacticians and leaders, with Qui-Gon even instructing a band of Wookiees on military tactics and the logistics of building military installations while Echuu defeated Dooku's best general Sev'rance Tann, who herself is no slouch either.
Traviss portraying them to be military buffoons stands in stark contrast to how Lucas and the other EU authors portrayed Jedi Generals: in Attack of the Clones, Mace Windu and the Jedi generals lead the clone forces to victory with little casualties on the part of the clone forces, while other EU works ranging from Clone Wars books to Tales of the Jedi portrayed the Jedi as experts on warfare and the military, with Jedi generals leading armies and fleets
There was also the fact that the clones LIKED the Jedi, so much so that Order 66 put many clones in a lot of stress, since they were raised to be good soldiers who followed orders, yet they loved their Jedi commanders. Even the 501st-centric 2005 version of SW Battlefront 2 portrayed the clone legions as reluctant executioners when it came to killing Jedi. So if the clones hated the Jedi as Traviss stated, there would be no clones who disobeyed Order 66, and they'd treat the order with joy and glee, not reluctance and regret, the way they did in so many other works.
So I'm not that angry over the Clone Wars 2008 show retconning a few things. The Clone Wars EU already had conflicting interpretations of the Jedi, the clone army, the Mandalorians, and even one of the biggest battles of the war. The way I see it, I'll just pick and choose between the old EU and the new TCW show which is canon for my own Legends timeline. But Traviss making the Jedi out to be incompetent evil buffoons already contradicts 90% of Legends lore which shows otherwise. It makes me angry whenever channels like Generation Tech regurgitate such garbage when I've seen otherwise-in games and other comics which portrayed the Jedi as a group with a long, proud, military tradition that even the movies reflect.
There were retcons of the TCW show I definitely didn't like, such as Grievous getting nerfed and those damn Order 66 chips, but most of what they did with Mandalore didn't piss me off in the slightest, especially when at this time, Jango's True Mandalorians were mostly dead, leaving the Death Watch, which was in hiding when Jango's army was destroyed, and the New Mandalorians who avoided war altogether. So naturally, those two would be fighting like cats and dogs once Jango's forces were gone.
And Mandos actually experimenting with pacifism and cultivating a civilization is a nice development that shows growth and real experimentation-similar as to how Jedi in earlier and later eras experimented with marriage and emotional ties as well as the Dark Side instead of staying as the always-stoic, celibate Jedi who avoided the Dark Side like the plague. If the Jedi can change, why not the Mandos? And of course, Legends only stretches up to Season 5 of the Clone Wars, so with Maul gone and the Death Watch in disarray, Spar could have easily come in with some Mando clans that were in hiding and seized the planet for the Seps. Sounds like something Dooku would do after Death Watch failed him.
@@saberiandream316 Except the Jedi allow the kids to leave if they don't want to be Jedi. Heck, all you need to do to leave the Jedi is just flunk your trials, experiment with the Dark Side, or just walk out and leave. It's not as inhumane as Jango and his Mandalorians putting Clone Commandos through live-fire training, or the Mandalorians literally enslaving and genociding people for shits and giggles during the KOTOR era. Whatever the flaws of the Jedi were, the Mandalorians were way worse, and in more ways than one, they don't ask for your consent before they draft, enslave, or kill you. So it's really hilarious to see Karen Traviss extolling the glories of the Mandalorians while whining about the Jedi enslaving clones and kidnapping children. Mandalore Jango Fett made that clone slave army for money, he and his goons put some of them through deadly live-fire exercises, and the Mandalorians enslaved and genocided people for crappy reasons.
@@saberiandream316 They obviously have free will when they grow up. It's no secret that many candidates for Jedi training either just don't fit in and leave, or they flunk their trials and get kicked out of the Order. Olee Starstone loved the life of a Jedi because she found comfort in its ideals, but other Jedi like Anakin obviously didn't. I mean, he was even threatened with expulsion from the Jedi Order by his own master. If you really want to leave the Jedi, just do something stupid to get the guys in charge to kick you out. Or do what Phanius and Dooku did and just resign your commission and leave. Dooku, Ahsoka, and Phanius all left of their own free will, and nobody bothered them, whereas the Jedi wouldn't have lost sleep if Anakin was kicked out of the Order.
The Mandalorians kidnapped kids too. In KOTOR, when you encounter a Sith operation to kidnap/lure/recruit Force-sensitive youths in Manaan, Canderous Ordo chimes in and says that Mandalorian recruiters did the exact same thing, taking kids when they're young and indoctrinating them in the ways of the Mandalorians. They also enslaved people, which obviously goes against free will. And the leader of the True Mandalorians consented to creating a clone slave army for money. So overriding free will isn't something Mandalorians aren't used to. They did it all the time, kidnapping or recruiting kids, enslaving people, and even making clone slave armies for pay. As bad as the Jedi can be, the Mandalorians are far worse, and Traviss is stupid to hold them as some kind of ideal when they've done worse things than the Jedi ever did.
@@saberiandream316 Except there were no set numbers for the Jedi until Disney took over. Also, the Jedi can be as strict as they want, because that's their choice. People who don't like that life can and do just walk away. Either they fail the Jedi Trials by chance or by choice, or they just walk out on the Order and give the Council the middle finger. You can't do that with Spartans, Mandalorian slaves, or that clone slave army that Jango Fett made, which makes Traviss' over-praising of the Mandalorians hypocritical. In Halo, kids who try to escape the Spartan program get tracked down and captured again. Those who walk out on the Jedi don't have that displeasure inflicted upon them. It's not Communism when you can just walk out and leave the Jedi: the Berlin Wall was proof of that.
Why the heck would you dislike the inhibitor chips? You’d rather the Clones be honorless sociopaths who willingly betray their generals? The chips are an obvious security measure to ensure compliance it makes perfect sense and is a great addition to the lore.
@@justchilling704 It made Order 66 more dramatic. The fact that these guys could choose between following the state which they have been taught to honor and obey or follow their Jedi commander whom they fought beside. And it made disobeying Order 66 an act of courage, not a result of getting a chip out of your brain.
Honestly I was looking forward to the battle of Jabiim when I heard TCW was coming out
Too mature and sophisticated for the 2008 show, smh.
we got the much better battle of umbara
@@saberiandream316 couple things wrong with what u say
1 I too prefer legends
2 filoni had a vision because ashoka and every other new character is consistent and deserve to be in the old EU
3 filoni couldn't include durge because disney likely wouldn't let him
4 WTF You insolent mortal dare talk down about the SIEGE OF F__KING MANDALORE AND THE UMBARAN ARC! Those arcs are the reason why the new Clone wars overall is better than the old. In legends (god I hate to call it that) your normie clone is a CGI nothing, whereas in the clone wars the clones are people with personalities, and the deus ex machina known as order 66 gets turned into an interesting plot point instead of being lazy. And lastly, you bi__hy fanboys should find your balance in instead of talking sh_t about the show you should find the way to put the good episodes into the old EU because that is what they deserve. Oh and FYI I hate the disney trilogy I think it butchered the OT and everything about it and the old EU thrawn trilogy is my ep 7,8 and 9
@@saberiandream316 for the last time i prefer legends you imposter to the eu fandom
@@saberiandream316 no TCW was just meant to be fan fic kids show. but then it became more,where a lot of, not all, but a lot of the arcs became better than some of the EU Clone Wars
The Conpnor explanation seems right for me. Some things are true and some things are propaganda or errors.
You are correct, and not only does TCW disrespect legends, but also the prequel films that they are heavily connected to.
To cite an example, in EP. 2 it is stated by lama su that the clones are "Totally obedient, taking any order without question." Compare this to how they are portayed in TCW: where we clearly see almost ALL of the clones are acting independent and outright disobeying orders. This also establishes yet another issue, why would palpatine want clones that have a level of free-thought and independence and not just mindless drones if his end goal is to make sure the clones obey his orders to wipe out the jedi? It doesn't make sense. Then you've got other big issues such as the jedi council giving anakin a padawan when we know from the prequel films they don't really trust him and weren't even willing to give him the rank of master in EP. 3. Of course, I could go on forever and these two points I've brought up are only a drop of water in the vast ocean of reasons why TCW is ultimately bad.
Wow. Saving this
The vast majority of deviant clones were under Anakin's command, and Anakin, apart from most other Jedi, facilitated and encouraged independent thinking among his troops. It wasn't Palpatine's doing, and it clearly didn't undermine the effectiveness of Order 66. But if you're more happy with a show about mindless and impersonal drones (The Drone Wars, lol), then here's to you.
Also, it was Yoda alone who selected a Padawan for Anakin, and that was three years prior to his rejection in EP. 3. To say a lote changed in those three in a gross understatement, especially when one considers that Anakin's Padawan had since turned away from the Order and abandoned the Jedi. Perhaps Anakin bore her "disgrace" in their eyes.
@@nathang6376 so did the other clones without the chips, who began questioning their programming and began becoming individuals, not to mention some didn't get the memo, and others were stuck for years, not knowing what happened
Plus the chip takes away the tension
@@EternalEmperorofZakuul - The chip did not take away the tension, not for me, but the other millions of Star Wars fans out there who hold this show near to there hearts.
@@nathang6376 it does, especially when you realize the Jedi could have easily removed them if they were found early and stop Palpatine, who can't do nothing when those clones stop him. Now without it, the Jedi know the clones are more loyal to the Republic, and any command from Palpatine is death, and if Palpatine says order 66, then the Jedi will be forced to fight back and run
This may be old but I don't care!
Captain Fordo/Tadd Lar'ken: *Explains why TCW doesn't fit in the LEGENDS timeline*
TCW Stans: *So you have chosen death*
And this is coming from someone who liked the show.
Barnabas included.
I'm a little late with this comment, but I wanted to say that your videos really opened my eyes on all the contradictions TCW caused with the EU. I still enjoy the series on its own (though Ahsoka was never necessary), but there's no denying the fact that it's the little cut that started the infection that ruined the continuity. When it comes to TCW being labled canon within Legends, I can easily ignore that claim and just dismiss any of the TCW stuff whenever I read stuff from the original EU.
I love the clone wars and I love republic commando, so thank you for making sense of all of this that was eating away at me.
Twin Suns Foundation!? Give us Legends Movement!? Those are things!? Also 1:36 the picture with Thrawn, Mara, and HK-47 is hilarious!
Honestly, I'm just pissed that my favorite era of Star Wars has to be vetted through this shitty show now. Gone are the days where we got interesting additions to the lore, or experimental and wild interpretations of the Clones that stayed relatively consistent to the comics, games, and movies. Now, we HAVE to have clones have Dee Bradley Baker voices. Clones now HAVE to be quirky and chipper. Clones now HAVE to bestest buddies with their jedi partners.
And let's not forget how watered down the Clone Wars became. We no oonger get interesting stories like Alpha 17 or Delta Squad, where the grittiness (and in Republic Commandos case) grounded military operations take place.
Everything has to be tieed to the jedi. Everything has to be anout the inhibitor chips. We can't have nuance.
And ill never forgive Filloni for retconning how ARCs work. He basically turned ARCs into a rank, rather than as a unit that clones are specifically bred for.
I personally think the show is good but I dont blame anybody who dislikes it. Put aside EU retcons there is plenty to dislike. Even when Filoni was at his strongest he was rarely a GREAT writer
There’s a lot to it. Not every clone loved the Jedi. You should watch the bad batch tv show, there’s a lot of dark and gritty and grey. You can explain that the first 100 alpha arcs were the originals and then as the war went on some died so they had to replace them with the arc recruits
I finished reading Republic some weeks ago.
I’m furious at Filoni
Makes no sense to give Anakin a padawan, also his character in TCW doesnt make sense with someone who didnt surpassed the trial of the flesh.
I thought that Anakin losing an arm to Dooku in Episode II counted as passing the trial of the flesh...
@@iloveutubesince3207 It does. I think they meant the Trial of the Spirit
Filoni just liked episode 3 anakin and since he was way to lazy to make a believable character progression from episode 2 anakin to episode 3 anakin he skipped it. It gets more and more annoying the worshipping people make for filoni and they pretend he can do no wrong
It’s George’s idea to do it to make anakin grow up a little. If u can’t comprehend it ur too stupid to understand then
@@CouncilCape897 Didn't they skip the Trial of Spirit in 2003 CW, too? As for giving Anakin a Padawan, that makes sense as being Obi-Wan's idea, supported by Yoda who perhaps thought that a Padawan might help mellow Anakin out. And, to an extent, he was right, but it also played into his overprotectiveness, and the whole play backfired after the Temple Bombing incident, shattering his trust in the Council.
This video will stand as a legendary testimony, for the future star wars fans that actually will look beyond the superficial dressing of the tcw tv show. The fans who will read the books and find that what came before was better than what tcw presented to you as a child. There is a reckoning coming, a day where the divergence of casual fans and the actual nerds comes to the forfront of the fandom, and I forsee that the casual fans will walk away when they realize that they'll actually have to read a goddamned book.😮
The Star Wars Universe was attacked in 2008. Killed in 2012.
Actually it was killed in 2014, as good things were still comming after Disney bought them.
I prefer Legends over Canon.
Like any respectable fan.....
yeah same here, despite only becoming a fan because of TCW 2008
Same. I will always love the Expanded Universe/Legends of Star Wars thanks to me being a fan of the 3D real-time-tactics strategy game Star Wars: Empire at War (and it's Forces of Corruption expansion) which sparked my interest in Expanded Universe/Legends of the Star Wars.
everybody can see by the end credits of TCW that George had little involvement
I'm sad that this is happening to one my favorite fictional universes. It's a real bummer. I don't mind alternate timelines like in Marvel and DC comics, but it seems like those who have the licenses (namely Disney) are actively committed to destroying everything so lovingly made prior to their involvement. I just want a good story that makes reasonable sense and fits reasonably well with the stories that came before it. If that means multiple timelines, fine...
Marvel and dc destroy their universes without the help of big companies
This is someone who never saw what the new 52 did to a lot of villains' backstories
0:00 - 7:31 *Creation backstory*
7:31 - 11:25 *Star wars explosion*
11:28 - 29:30 *TCW timeline confusions*
29:32 - *The final touches*
I too was both surprised and annoyed that they gave anakin a padewan. It made absolutley no sense.especially since in episode 3, he's still under obi Wan and there's no mention at all of ashoka in any of the trilogy prior or after.
if legends continues TCW should be retconned as propaganda in legends
Damn, this really makes me want to read the comics and books...
You should they are amazing
I didn't much care about TCW, but I foolishly thought it was fine. Kids can have their shows too. Now I was more into post-RotJ EU than prequel based stuff, so I didn't notice it first, but eventually all the damage TCW was doing to the continuity became apparent to me too. I started to hate it, and not knowing about Filoni, blamed Lucas for it.
Yeah, it would be nice to let Disney canon to have TCW. I have heard Filoni is messing up their EU continuity as well. That man just doesn't care.
I joined the rebellion just as you did.
I haven't read much of the EU outside of a few comics but I completely agree you. I just read some of star wars republic and it was amazing!! I was blown away by how great it was. It aligned with the films so perfectly. I was loving how well Anakin was potrayed. His character perfectly aligned with Hayden Christensen's portrayal in the movies. I like tcw but it's contradicts so much. Even before I started reading some eu comics I saw how it contradicted stuff in the films, and the more I get into the eu the more my love for tcw fades.
IKR! Jabiim and the Siege of Saleucami are my FAVORITE parts off the clone wars multimedia project
Based take
As much as I enjoyed The Clone Wars, I wouldn't miss it if it was removed from Legends entirely and put over to the Disney canon. I still prefer the 2003 Clone Wars show and 2002 video-game anyway.
I actually have an interesting fan theory that could fix tcw: **I HAVE NOT READ FOTJ so please take my theory with a grain of salt**
Okay, so my fan theory is that TCW SOLELY takes place ion the Disney canon. However, when Abeloth was locked away, she was not only banished into the unknown regions but, the legends version of the unknown regions so that way the world of the Disney canon would be safe from her. Unfortunately, her presence in the legends canon caused space and time to distort. For example, history began to change to reflect the Disney canon. his would explain the contradictions between tcw and legends AND the novels being rerwritten to fit within tcw. Plus, you would never EVR have to erase abeloth
I know this is an old video but star wars legends is STILL better than 3d clone wars and disney star wars.
Not only is it better, it’s Real canon
The irony when 2003 cw fudged up legends . It contradicts Layrinth of evil, and makes jedi DBZ style op. Why do you need a clone army when mace windu can solo can entire army
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Never did.
TCW's treatment of the Mandalorians was bad enough.
But the butchering of the Nightsisters and Dathomir makes me irrationally angry.
We need a tv show about anakin and obi wan in the years between phantom menace and attack of the clones
TCW is a great show but it does not belong in legends
I've never liked the CGI Clone Wars show. I've only ever considered the one done in short cartoon vignettes between Ep II and Ep II to be the real Clone Wars show. I Love how it ends with Obi-Wan and Anakin racing off to save Palpatine. So it leads right into Episode III.
The CGI show was planning to do that too but was cancelled before that.
After watching this video I realised I hate the new Clone Wars show mostly because it contradicts so much stuff I learned from other media about Star Wars universe. I still think the show has many flaws and is pretty childish and boring at times, but it had many amazing moments. 2003 is absolutely superior tho. Raw, funny, stylish... Who can forget such scenes as Grievous introduction, Ventress starfighter chase, battle of Coruscant, ARC troopers capturing the cannon, Obi Wan vs Durge... New show has NONE of that. At least for me.
"none" you should rewatch all seasons mate. It is childish only until season 1 but after that it got dark and deep. The 2003 one is fun to watch but no where deep or dark like the 2008 one.
I strongly disagree. It could be rather dark and deep at times, but still, too shallow. It was like 'Disney deep', 'Disney dark', even before they came into picture. For example the scene on Umbara (btw best part of new show, hands down, one that I would consider putting on par with older show moments) where clones find out they have been shooting at their own men... I saw it coming from miles away, it felt soo melodramatic, was trying to hammer the 'Clones are people too, they have emotions' message SO GODDAMN HARD! I get it. It bores me seeing it again and again. I liked it, but despite the message, not for it. I felt like a little kid that never had their favorite character die in a show, so they tried to give me that experience here and make me feel it. But perhaps I just didnt like the characters much to begin with. I know that I'm in a minority in this and if you enjoy it, more power to you, don't let me, stranger on the internet, bitter your opinion on the show or yourself for enjoying it.
TCW is darker than the movies. It even has a censored scene were Savage decapitates 5 black sun leaders. There are more deaths than in any normal kids show. Like Pre Vizsla getting decapitated by Maul or 4 deathwatch members also losing their heads to Ahsoka. Ventress impales a clone and a republican guard. It also covers darker themes like slavery, there was even a scene where a Zygerrian drops a bunch of t Twi'leks to their deaths just to prove to Obi Wan that his existence as slave was hopeless.
TCW has a lot of great acs like mortis, umbara or deception. These stories added a lot to the characters development of the overall story. Most of the original clone wars is juts a bunch of random battle scenes with incredibly overpowered characters.
I think making the clones human and giving them, a feel of brotherhood was a good choice. It makes order 66 more tragic as the good friends who betray their generals. Without that distinction they wouldn’t be more than droids without the metal.
They couldn’t kill the main characters of the show, because some of them appear in later movies. But many new introduced characters died like Savage, mother talzin, Satine, ventress, domino squad, etc.
Great video with one mayor flaw.... Is not called "Legends". Its called The EXPANDED UNIVERSE!
16:33 This is an important point, as Order 66 comes off as more or less a conspiracy in TCW, when in the EU it was an open, if perhaps not widely known fact. TCW itself shows Jedi going against the interests of the Republic in the cases of Barriss Offee and Pong Krell, and we had further examples in the EU of Tol Skor, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos, and technically Assajj Ventress, although she turned to the dark side well before the Clone Wars began.
In fact, what happens in the TCW canon if the Republic NEEDS to execute Order 66 on a Jedi General OUTSIDE Palpatine's purge? They sure as hell can't use the brain chips then, or else a significant portion of the GAR's leadership in the field will be killed, and having the Republic lose the war or be forced to negotiate a peace was NOT part of Palpatine's master plan.
It doesn’t even matter anymore. Filoni has his way and has blazed through canon. And yet the supposed fandom gets mad whenever anyone crticises either Filoni or the destruction of consistent canon.
I as much as I love TCW I agree with you, TCW and TCW related novels and video games should stay disney canon.
Why do we keep relegating The Clone Wars to Disney canon? Whether or not The Clone Wars is part of Legends, it was never a Disney creation. It was Lucasfilm all the way until Disney up and cancelled it.
@@nathang6376 I don't exactly consider it a Disney creation (Though even that's a bit iff, since Disney not only finished it, but also significantly expanded on it with Rebels and Bad Batch), but I do consider it only a part of the new continuity, because it contradicts the continuity of the old EU too much.
If only we knew how bad it would get 7 years later
I still love this video, it continues to age gracefully and got me more into the EU!
I like both TCW and what I've seen/read from the multimedia project but I always viewed them as separate stories and enjoyed each of them on their own merits
I absolutely love the Clone Wars, almost as much as Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes Back. But, it cannot be decided how much of a problem it is for legends. I have just started reading some of the Multimedia Project books, and they are great. Both timelines definitely should be seperated.
personally I just ignore it when thinking about Legends
As a TCW and CW fan and as someone who has consumed both Legends and Canon content, I agree even tho I thought TCW had already been wiped out of Legends after Disney declared the Legends thing. Also you messed up in a few places, Maul's story is finally over, he was killed by Obi-wan in Tatooine in S3 of Rebels, they already established in Canon Mandalorians got separated by clans and made everyone to be a Mandalorian in The Mandalorian Disney plus series, and I don't think TCW fans would be outraged by this video (or at least from what I've seen here and in other places)
@SpectreDC Legends from the start should have been declared an alternate universe like George said he thinks of it as. There should be 3 universes with a hybrid between canon and legends being the main universe.
The Mandalorian Disney+ series brought back the: Everyone can be a Mandalorian + clans, but a little different.
Honestly, I feel like Canon Assajj is more interesting than her Legends counterpart, but I also think that since they changed so much about her, they should have made her a new character. (Only the name matches up, really.)
"You are in this knighthood, but we do not grant you the rank of master"
Finally a video to point to when people wonder why I have been so opposed to TCW. Just wished this was recommended to me sooner.
Waaait a sec, from a making of video i saw on TCW, i remember dave felloni sayn that it was georges idea to bring maul back.
And for Dooku being tired of her, thats not true. Palpatine orders him to kill her because her power was growing.
An for morraban, that was georges idea too, as far as i remember, again taken from a Video i saw about the making of.
And, ist it possible to just ignore TCW from legends?
I think its great to have 2 timelines actually, i mean how many franchies are there wehre we can choose a timeline we like?
We all know from the numerous special editions that, George is a man who changes his mind... a lot, so it isn't entirely impossible that he had a change of heart on the subject. Also, if you recall, I said he "originally wasn't a fan of the idea of his characters being resurrected", with "originally" implying that he could very well have changed his mind while working on TCW.
The mistake with Dooku being "tired of her" was pointed out to me by another viewer, and while I admitted the error, also posed the possibility of her exit from the Separatists being a bit to abrupt, which is the sense I was basically trying to convey in the video.
And you are indeed correct, George Lucas did suggest to Filloni that Korriban's name should be changed because he didn't want fans to get it confused with Coruscant, However, doesn't mean I didn't think the name change was silly, and frankly a bit insulting if you think the fans are too dumb to differentiate.
Lastly, I've been ignoring TCW from Legends since before Legends was branded Legends lol, and there's even a popular Reddit theory going around that TCW is simply a series of Republic propaganda-holos meanwhile the Clone Wars Multi-Media Project is what actually happened. A fun theory, yet, officially TCW is still considered legends, which is why I made this video, basically saying "If Legends is to be continued as an alt-time line, this is how it should be continued." Anyways, glad you support the idea of 2 Timelines, I only wish Disney did haha.
There’s also the possibility that Felloni decided to blame controversial decisions on Lucas so everyone would just go with it, but that seems a little too malicious for someone as apathetic about the EU as him.
I think George even said to Filoni to disregard everything from the old clone wars and do the changes that are necessary.
I consider the 2003 Microseries as Republic propaganda while TCW is the what really happened.
Deranfan, i agree because i remember having seen that the Producers mentioned taht Lucas told them to ignore existing lore if it prevents a good storie to be told
Red Jay, I think this is unfair, Lucas was involved with TCW and every major decision was based on his ok.