@@JasonSadites they have been very helpful, I am left with a bit of a question. In the video your interface has the same 12.5 @ minimum gain, you set to -4.5dB to zero between the pedal and plugin (assume app as well), my interface has the same rating, but I’ve been using +2.5dB only my the pedal and during my testing found I needed +8dB app and +13dB on the plugin to match. Why do I have such a discrepancy where in your case the tones match? Using your models, tone junkie and random others including that I’ve made. I’ve finally cleared my pedal up and loaded my own captures and got a few of yours to test there as well, honestly a bit confused to why I (and one other I know of) am having to scale the input levels to match and why with 12.5dB subtract, but if 21dB you’d need to add 10dB. Almost deleted this long question because I feel like it’s been answered, I just don’t get it I suppose.
I tried it and you're right! I play with a scarlet interface with the tonex software, mainly with capures from Amalgan, and initially had the input level very high (just before red), which didn't sound good. Later I set the input level on the interface to 0, which was better. After your video I tried again and your suggestion sounded the best by far: input level to -11dB! Because the scarlet has -12.5dB when the input pot is turned back, I increased the input level by 1.5dB in the tonex software and the sound is better than ever before! What I also found out is very important for me: the output level of the Tonex software shouldn't be too high! I had it at +1.5dB which worsened the sound and sometimes led to unwanted distortion. With the output level set to 0 it sounds significantly better!
Jason great video!!!! I really appreciate your helping me with my RME UFX III and matching the levels correctly. You have done an excellent job explaining how to adjust for the issues people are having with the unit. I know this was a lot of work to put together and I am sure many of us are very happy. Thank you!!!!
Absolutely brilliant as always Jason. The community can never thank you enough for what you do in supporting us. What does this equate to when using Tonex pedal as an interface in relation to the global interface volume?
TY Jason, it clears the input trim issues I had, because I was guiding myself with the input trim led and i understood it doesn't have to be exactly accurate to try to be in Ok ( green).
Jason great points. Going DI to any interface even from a modeler, level output or thru-put has got to be considered. Over saturation can be a problem especially if you are gain stacking depending on the effect type, especially overdrives, distortions, amp gain, etc. Headroom, as you say is so important.
Hi Jason! Very helpful explanation! Thanks! One question: How do customers find the right input gain to recreate the most authentic sound of a particular amp (tone model) in the first place? Don’t we need to know the input gain of the audio interface used by the creator of the Tone Model? What about the tone models that ship with the pedals (Tonex / Tobex One) or purchased Tone Models in general (ik MM, Signature, Partners)? I would assume that at least the models the pedals ship with should be created for a 8dbu input trim to sound best (or at least most „realistic“ in comparison to the captured amp) when sticking to the default input trim of the hatdware those models come with) As I understand it, that’s not the case though? So for customers who use purchased tone models, wouldn’t it be necessary to know the exact gain level and/or interface used within the creation process of the tone models to recreate the most authentic sound? There has been a great research done by a guy named Ed S about the topic and some vendors told their figures yet I think ik MM is not clear about this? What about your tone models for example? Do you (or would) you recommend setting the levels so tahte they match your settings when you created them? Or am I misunderstanding the whole concept? Thanks!
I can only comment on the tone models I create. I make mine to sound exactly as I capture them that when an audio interface is set so that 0 dBu = -11dBfs. This would equate to setting Tonex Pedal Global Input Trim to -3.0 dB with the Gain Knob of the tone model at 5.0. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites One bit that is missing in the video is that you can leave the HiZ input to the minimum and then you can raise the level in the digital domain (any daw can do this). If a model actually needs +8.5 in the pedal to be accurate you can match it in the plugin without clipping by raising the level in your track using whatever utility your daw provides to do this.
@yacreader yes you can most certainly work that way also. But you still have the issue with Tonex Pedal used as an interface with Global Input Trim at +8.5 dB you will make the USB Dual out feature pretty much useless with anything but the lowest output guitars. It never makes sense to run things so close to the limit, IMO. EDIT: Also, to add another important piece of info, the reason I spoke of using the interface gain is because in the Tonex Software manual it suggest this method of bumping up your audio interface gain until clipping and then backing off again.
The plugin can also be run at higher sample rates which seems to improve the sound. I prefer the plugin over the pedal, there is definitely more depth to sound of the plugin.
Hi Jason, appreciate all of your great and helpful content. I am expecting delivery of a white ToneX pedal this week. I’ve never used one. My interface is a Presonus Audiobox and the manual says instrument input max headroom is +21dbu. Isn’t that really high? Not sure how to setup my pedal input to be correct when I get it. This kinda confusing to me.
You bet! I appreciate the time and dedication you take to put out these videos! I have done a few and it is not easy. The worst part for me is being on camera and talking lol. Something you are very good at! Keep up the Great work! @JasonSadites
Very helpful. I misunderstood your earlier video and had my pedal set at +0.0. Better, but I have to look up the gain on my interface now and set the pedal properly. I actually tried using the pedal as the interface but … no, not loving that. Many thanks.
I really have the opposite problem. Full input trim, full output dB and full volume on the pedal does not amount to nearly the same level as the plugin with the same preset. This is even with Fluence humbucker and a boost in between.
Hi Jason, thanks for the tips and fantastic tones, but I have another challenge for you, Tonex Software when used Standalone sounds great, but inside the DAW as a Plugin VST it sounds very different, reveal more of this mystery to us.
Great video: Kind of blows my mind that the company that created both these products did not set the appropriate default level. They created their own problem, and apparently this resulted in some returns and some loss of interest in the product. I would hope the white version and the update would take this into consideration.
Thank you :-) There is no "appropriate default" level unfortunately. As I mention in the video, every audio interface anyone uses will have different specs. IK set +8.5 as the default but also state in the manual you need to change this depending on the guitar you use. The problem is that some people out there suggest leaving this at +8.5 would cause a lot of potential issues (i.e potential issues with Dual USB Out and matching software and pedal to sound the same being a couple). The Global Input Trim was never meant to be set and forget at that high a level, you will simply run out of headroom with anything but the lowest output guitars in certain situations as I have laid out clearly in this and the previous video. The other issue is constant menu diving to set and re-set the Global Input Trim. Which is why I suggest you run the Global Input Trim with more headroom to handle almost all guitars and never touch it again and simply use the Gain Knob (which does the exact same thing as Global Input Trim) to control if you need more or less gain hitting the front of the tone model. Hope that helps :-)
I politely disagree that's there's no appropriate default level ;) Fractal and other devices default to a safe low gain to ensures basically any guitar can be plugged in without clipping the converters yet the noise floor remains lower than the traditional equipment being modeled. And if folks have a low output guitar and want to adjust that, then they can and can get even lower noise. But there are two key parts here: 1) The default is sufficient for almost any guitar, even if not optimal. 2) ADJUSTMENTS TO INTERFACE GAIN ARE AUTOMATICALLY OFFSET BY SOFTWARE GAIN! Then you're truly only adjusting the headroom of the interface, and never adjusting the model's response to a given guitar!
Thanks for great and informative video. You mentioned that the Tonex pedal has a maximum input level of 8 dBu. May I ask, what's your source for this information?
Great stuff Jason! I have a general question about Tonex pedal. Have you tried using a Line 6 Power Cab as the output? Just running it with no speaker emulation and flat speaker setting on the Power cab produces way too much bass tone. Changing the eq on the Tonex doesn’t help. Any ideas? Thanks!
@davidglastetter7746 thank so much! Max input level for Helix is 11.5 dBu. That would equal Tonex Pedal with Global Input Trim in -3.5 dB. Hope that helps :-)
Excellent information. There are enough confusing problems already between levels for Audio Interfaces and Software Suite plugins e.g Amplitube, Helix Native, Guit Rig etc. I'm running a Quantum 2632 and I'm finding a guitar 'SweetSpot' at +13. Any higher than that and 'Clean' tones just aren't clean. When running at 0 Gain in the Inst i/p everything is too low unless I pile on Gain in the DAW or on the plugin. I have yet to compare TONEX Pedal side by side with TONEX software as you have done here. I'll give it a go, out of interest. 👍
3:38 But what are we hearing here? where is the sound coming from? I don't understand what you are trying to explain. Is your Guitar plugged into the TONEX and then recorded from there, or is it fed into a PA or your PC/laptop? what? and obviously your DAW is on your PC/Laptop... but again what are we hearing, internal, fed out through a PA/Speakers -- what? and what do you mean by two different instances of the same tone model? How can you be playing a TONEX tone model without TONEX?
Wasn't there also announced an desktop pedal editor lately or am i wrong? I wonder if this would clear up problems like this or will cause more confusion when folks tweak their presets to work on the pedal am later wonder why these don't work on the mix using the plugin.
This was awesome. My interface has max input of +18 dBu (Arturia Audiofuse Studio). So based on that, I will set Tonex pedal input trim to -10dB. One question though. With my Strandberg Prog NX7 (Fishman Fluence active pickups), I am clipping my interface at min input gain. What is best practice for dealing with that? A) I could activate a 20dB pad and adjust gain but then I would need to further reduce Tonex input trim; B) I could reduce the volume of my guitar (though that would not be consistent).
Another great video Jason. Compliments! I was wondering: what if I used the Tonex Pedal as a USB audio interface, to create my own presets from software (and then move them to the Tonex Pedal) where would I adjust the volume? There doesn't seem to be a way to adjust an input volume, unless it's the trim input on the Tonex Pedal, at which point I should adjust the Tonex Pedal's trim input to the same value as the software's trim input? I guess so, but it would be great if you could make one of your great videos explaining this. Thanks for what you do!
There's no such thing as input volume. Volume controls are on the output of a component, not the input. The most important thing to get right is analog gain. Volume controls are transparent. They can't alter the signal in a good or bad way. They just attenuate. Any time you see trim, you're working with a digital signal. Trim is considered to be "digital gain", but its not the same thing. Gain is created by amplifying the signal. Trim is adjusted by altering the bit rate. Analog gain is used to get the overall tone you're looking for. Once you have gain set, trim is used to make fine adjustments on the input without altering the fundamental tone. Because volume can't alter the signal, you worry about that last. Once you set your gain structure properly, you use a volume control to set how loud you want it to be, without having to worry about overdrive or distortion changing the tone of your signal.
@Mr.G_989 Great question! When working with Tonex Pedal as an interface, in Interface mode and the pedal preset/tone model bypassed as you need it to be. The pedal Global Input Trim does nothing at all as you may have already noticed. What you would want to do is set your Global Gain Knob of your software to the same value you set your Tonex Pedal Global Input Trim at. Everything should work beautifully after that! Let me know if that helps :-) Thanks for the great question!
@@JasonSadites Thanks for your reply! After following your videos, I thought it was ok to set the Global Gain knob of my software and the Tonex pedal Global Input Trim to the same value. It worked perfectly, the procedure is correct! Thanks so much!
Great video, thanks! For anyone who can help: on Tonex One, where on the trim knob is -3db? Is all the way to the left -15 and all the way to the right +15, with straight up being 0db, so -3 would be a little to the left of centerline?
@kevinraskoff655 thank you and yes thar is correct 🙂 You can also hook Tonex One up to computer and use Librarian within Tonex app. There are settings that you can use to set it by numerical value. Hope that helps :-)
Thanks for the clarification! I tried to find the maximum input gain of the Tonex One, but its not in the manual or at IK Multimedias website. Is it the same?
Do you have to use an Audio interface to use the Tonex pedal with the software? i’m new to TONEX and have one of the anniversary models on order. Hopefully they release a dedicated pedal editor soon!
Tonex pedal can act as your audio interface when you put it into Interface Mode in Global Settings. They have an announced an editor will be coming in the not too distant future. Hope that helps :-)
I am thinking of getting the ToneX pedal. can I buy the ToneX software and use it in Cubase without the need of the hardware unit if all I want to do is record guitars in Cubase? How did you setup ToneX for this video? Did you use the Physical outputs of the ToneX into your soundcard or via USB in Sound Card mode? If the software sounds identical to the Hardware Unit why use the hardware unit in Cubase? Its confusing.
Really interesting stuff Jason. Given the software is the heart of Tonex this is really useful. So my Focusrite solo instrument level is -12.5db at zero.... You say the pedal is -8db at zero.... so if I add 4.5db to the input trim on the software are you saying that would be the same as the pedal at 0db?
Thanks! If your Focusrite interface max input level is 12.5 dBu, since Tonex Pedal max input level is 8.5 dBu, you would either set Tonex Pedal at -4.5 dB to match your audio interface at minimum gain. Or, you could run the Tonex Software with the Input Level knob on +4.5 dB to match Tonex Pedal at 0.0 on the Global Input Trim. Better yet , you could run your audio interface at minimum gain, Tonex Pedal at 0.0 and adjust the Gain Knob per tone model to 6.5 and then that would be a saveable parameter per preset. All of those scenarios will match the software and pedal. Hope that helps :-)
I tried it yesterday with the Focusrite and it sounded best at -11 dB like you suggested. This means that the imput potentiometer on the interface was turned back (-12.5dB) and I increased the imput in the software by 1.5dB (to -11dB). If I understood correctly, that corresponds to -3dB for the Tonex pedal.
Okay, I'm confused. I'm using a Tonex ONE in the loop of HX Stomp. No problems so far. At home I use an HX Stomp XL as the interface for my guitar into the PC. Using the Tonex ONE on its own - I set the input level on my Strat by getting a decent bright green light on the 'Microknob 3' as per manual and that translates as about '+11'. It's almost up full. Using the Tonex Software - the Input dial (bottom left corner) is set to '+12.9" and even then the green indicator doesn't register beyond the 'T' in the word 'INPUT'. It all works perfectly but what am I not understanding here. Is this an interface issue? Why are my levels SO LOW compared to Jason's?
@@JasonSadites nevermind answering... just did myself the favor and watched your video on tonex one input trim. THANK YOU SO MUCH for your videos. You rock.
Understood the problem. However maximizing the input gain of any interface gives you an advantage, that is the ADC's range will be maximized as well. As a consequencethe quantization error (which translates into noise) of the ADC is minimized. So I would use a different workaround: - setup the audio IF used for TONEX SW to the gain that gets you to almost clipping - setup TONEX PEDAL input gain to the maximum - In your DAW, place a plain gain stage virtual instrument (almost every DAW has on in its default VST lybray) to compensate for the loss (or "gain") in dB that your audio IF has VS the TONEX pedal This way, you will always be exploiting your hardware at its best and the levels will be aligned with the TONEX before your signal "enters" the SW. Please let me know what you think...
@@emmanuelgranatello1896 Tonex Pedal A/D conversion is before the Global Input Trim. You will get no benefit whatsoever as far as boosting Global Input Trim. Hope that helps.
@@JasonSadites Really? I would have never said that. It seems weird to me because in that case there would be no way to adapt different guitars/basses to the ADC range. Also, how could the user know if they are clipping the ADC ? Did you get that info from the IK multimedia guys?
@@JasonSadites I get your observation from the video. But you start from the assumption that when the pedal is bypassed the signal is still going to be converted in digital and then back to analog. How can you be sure about this ? Couldn't it be that the bypass signal is taken instead before the ADC and, if my theory would be right, actually before the input trim? PS: I am not dissing here, I am just very courious to know how it works by someone that spends a lot of time and studies with this object :)
But....What is you're going from your ToneX pedal straight to your power amp, then cabinet? Is it good to have the "Input Trim" at zero? Or can the "Input Trim" be turned higher just below saturation? I play really clean.
The level going to your power amp is the OUTPUT level. That has nothing to do with INPUT level. You can still leave the Input Trim at 0.0 and use the Gain Knob to boost it if you like and then you can save that as a preset :-) Hope that helps!
I'm still confused. Should I run my audio inteface at 0db gain? My audio interface (iRig HD 2) specs don't include the Maximum Input Level. Neither does my other audio interface (AXE I/O Solo). In fact, neither does the TONEX One pedal. So it seems like IK isn't giving enough information to make these types of adjustments.
I am not sure about the iRig HD 2. The Axe I/O Solo has a maximum input level of 12.5 dBu and Tonex One Pedal has Maximum input level of 8.0 dBu. If you left the Axe I/O at minimum gain it would be the same as Tonex One set to Global Input Trim of -4.5 dB. Hope that helps :-)
How was the guitar hooked up to both the audio interface as well as the TONEX pedal during this experiment? Seemed you were switching using your DAW, not switching using an A/B/Y pedal or something. Was it going through your interface before hitting the pedal?... and if so, how do you guarantee it's the same level as if it were direct from guitar into pedal? Thanks.
I feed my guitar it into a Radial splitter designed for this purpose. I have then measured the outputs of the splitter with a multimeter to verify they are the same. So yes, they were precisely the same. Thanks for the great question :-)
@@JasonSaditesthanks so much for the time to explain. I have a Morley ABY that I'll try to replicate the setup with. Would be super useful to know that the pedal will sound exactly like the plugin. I've watched your videos back and forth along with this one which advocates using your interface at non-minimum (i.e. as high as it'll go without clipping). th-cam.com/video/gJ59h7xfvdI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FgIoUexoXkmud1H7 I ended up getting 5 more dB of usable range compared to running my interface at minimum because my peaks went up 20 dB but my noise floor only went up 15 dB. Now I just need to figure out how much to trim it back (probably using the Ableton Utility plugin) so that the TONEX plugin sounds the same as the pedal at -3. Meanwhile I'm just a beginner/intermediate... I should practice more rather than get OCD obsessed about these things matching up ;-)
I would completely ignore that video. By his own admission he used the cheapest interface possible and then purposely used it in a manner that it was never meant to be used (i.e running a high headroom input at minimum gain AND engaging the Input Pad to exaggerate results). Can I ask what audio interface you are using?
@@JasonSadites I have a Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 (3rd gen). I gained 5dB of range by using gain on my interface. Hard for me to understand why that'd be a bad thing. This is a bit out of my wheelhouse.
On the software ( not the interface I have at zero), what should the input gain level be at? I tend to leave it alone at 0 I guess and not alter , I use the Apollo x with a strat , thanks!
I never touch the software input level. It isn't a parameter that can be saved so might as well use the Gain Knob which does exactly the same thing and then you can save the settings to a preset. Hope that helps :-)
+++ TNX Jason, my Arturia Studio Fuse Interface has 18 dbu Input gain so i have to ad +10db on the Interface to match 0db on the Tonex-pedal, right?+++
subtract 10. -10dB on the tonex pedal to match the app while using the fuse interface. for example, his interface and my 4i4 gen3 are both 12.5dBu, the tonex pedal is 8dBu, 12.5-8=4.5 to match level the tonex pedal needs to be set to -4.5dB which will keep from pushing a amp model beyond where it should start.
Is this true if you're not using the min gain setting on your interface? I.e, suppose your gain knob is up a third of its travel. Do you still subtract 4.5 dB from Tonex pedal?
@@bravinneff7932 no, you've already exceeded 0dBu unity level you are going for. you should have your interface at the minimum input gain and set to instrument, look up the spec for your interface, it will look similar to Instrument inputs: Frequency response20Hz - 20kHz ± 0.1dB Dynamic range110dB (A-weighted) THD+N Maximum output level (0 dBFS)12.5dBu (at minimum gain) we are interested in where i highlighted with ->, that is 0.
@@bravinneff7932 hi, i found out, when input gain on the interface is zero, the tonemodels in the software are very weak and quite. Yes i have to turn up the gainnob on the interface about half to have nice full sound. In other plugins like Helix native and Neural dsp it has to be at minimum to get the best result. The Tonexpedal i use mostly in Helix FX loop and the Trim in Tonexpedal at about 5. Its kind of strange ...
@redkurn thank you for the help. I thought I understood this, but I guess not. I use an RME 802 fireface, and it's DI input has 6 dB of gain even with the knob all the way down, theres no way to lowe it. It's max input spec is 21dB at min gain. Are you saying I should keep the gain knob all the way down on my instrument DI input no matter what?
How does this relate if I use the ToneX pedal (one) as the audio interface? I would not need any correction right? Or is a minus 4 to 0 setting be a good thing anyway?
When working with Tonex Pedal as an interface, in Interface mode and the pedal preset/tone model bypassed as you need it to be. The pedal Global Input Trim does nothing at all as you may have already noticed. What you would want to do is set your Global Gain Knob of your software to the same value you set your Tonex Pedal Global Input Trim at. Everything should work beautifully after that! Let me know if that helps :-) Thanks for the great question!
@@JasonSadites Works perfectly thnx! A related question... how about global volume on the ToneX One pedal does nothing at all in interface mode too right? Now... there is a global settings window where the input trim of the pedal is shown. Moves around when fiddling with the input trim on the pedal. Is there a place where I can read what the global volume is set to? Trying to figure out what to set it too inbetween pedals (feeding the return of my Blackstar HT40).
An aside…would you say if your strictly looking for an amp modeler for recording into a pc and writing with, the software rather than pedal is the best bet?
I think the video is useful, but for me the input trim cannot be set at 0. What I found is that for the way I set my audio interface (Scarlett Focusrite 2i2 third generation), if I want to have the same exact sound between pedal and software, I have to set my input trim on the pedal at 6.5. My problem is that with the Scarlett I cannot set a precise input gain, I have to use the knob, so I set it on a level just before the sound clips, leaving the Tonex software input and output at 0. With this settings I have the input trim on the pedal at 6.5 but this might differ from person to person based on the interface used and on the input gain set on that interface.
The real issue you are having which is easily fixed is that you should not be adjusting the gain on your interface to clipping and then backing it off. That way you have to constantly adjust for every guitar. Leave it at minimum, which will give you enough headroom for the vast majority of guitars. You will never have to move this and you won't be close to clipping with most guitars. With your 2i2 at minimum this will sound identical to the Toenx Pedal set at -4.5 on Global Input Trim. You set that and then leave it alone. If you need to hit the tone model/ preset with more input gain you can simply use the Gain Knob within Tonex to do so and that feature is saveable per preset. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites thank you very much for your response. I had tried something similar to what you are saying, with input in my interface set at the same level for all my guitars, but I noticed a problem with my clean sounds with low single coils guitar, maybe I am missing something... I give you an example. Suppose I use a single coil guitar, with the input in my interface just before clipping, I have a fender tweed amp with gain at 8 and volume at 3.5: the sound is perfect, just in the edge of breakup. If I set the input in the interface low as you are saying, to have the same preset volume as before I need to set the volume near 10, and here's the problem: the sound is super clean, not at the edge of breakup like before. Am I missing something obvious?
Just to understand the situation you are describing here. Are you talking a Fender Tweed Amp tone model within Tonex? When you say preset volume I am not clear what you are talking about.
@@JasonSadites yes I am talking of a tweed amp tone model inside the Tonex software, when I say "volume" I am referring to the volume knob that I see in the view of the amp inside the preset.
Oh ok, thanks for clarifying :-) So the Model Volume within Tonex does not change the way the tone model sounds as far as hitting the front of it with more or less level. So that is a different discussion than the input level. What I would do if I were you is add less again to your audio interface so it matches up with Tonex Pedal at Global Input Trim of 0.0 (that would be equivalent to adding +4.5 dB to your audio interface). That would still leave you a nice amount of headroom so you won't clip. Than wishing your Tonex Tweed Preset instead of running Gain Knob on 8 run it on 10 and it should sound the same. Hope that helps :-)
I still can't figure it out sorry....shouldn't the pedal and the software sound the same if my, lets say Tonex Pedal Global Trim Input Level is set to 0 as in the Input knob level from software also set to 0 and of course not using another audio interface and just use the the ToneX Pedal as the audio Interface? i think is due to IK Multimedia to fix this differences if any...What you guys think of it?
I don’t know why inputs gain -12 DBFS isn’t common knowledge by now. It wasn’t for me, and I’ve spent way too many hours searching for ideal input gain. -12 is what most, if not all plugins use. It’s where the yellow marker starts on all VU meters. I hope this helps anyone else. I wish that IK could update the firmware to actually read out the input DB instead of Low ,OK, and High. The Pedals OK input I believe is also -12.
Not all plugins use that, not at all, it can be much higher than that, e.g. 0dbfs, neural dsp uses -13, etc. It’s information that should be provided for every plugin in order to get accurate results. For tonex captures is going to depend on the vendor.
wow tonex pedal is 8dBu??? no wonder +5.5dB sounded right on the app when the pedal was at 0... was only 1dB hotter matching by ear which means in my case with a gen 3 4i4 i'm only 7dB hotter now. reason i am stuck on it is when i am making captures (you've said their di is 3dB hotter) i am trying to match to that. i'm going to give -4.5dB a try app and plugin at +0dB and if it's not lining up for me i'll try what other plugins need and add +1dB to the app and since i've done the work and math finding the level to match... +6dB on the plugin. thank you for what you do jason, been doing captures for 3 weeks straight and definitely want to get back to playing. maybe it is because i am using a boss wl-50 or akg wireless system, but on the app being +8 my cleans are still clean and my gains sound the same with the pedal at +2.5. i think that is the reason i am having difficulty with it, that or my wireless systems both do not hit the hardware like a cable would?
Great tutorial. IK should be more consistent and open with the input level stuff. There is no definitive guidline which would be REALLY needed! So if somebody tries out a tonex, everything has to much gain at 8,5. I mean why? The make their own product sound worse!
Thank you! IK suggest in the manual to adjust the Global Input Trim depending on the guitar you have plugged into it, so it was never meant to just be left at +8.0. It is a lot of hassle to always have to menu dive to Global settings, so you can simply set the Global Input Trim lower to give enough headroom for all your guitars and then use the Gain Knob to adjust per guitar if needed. That way you can also save the Gain Knob setting per preset and not have to menu dive. Hope that helps :-)
@matthewearl9824 Fix what? All audio interfaces are different. Unless they had the power to make all audio interfaces on the market have the same specs they can't "fix it". Understanding how it all works makes it very easy for the end user to match things up as I showed in the video.
@@JasonSadites meta data and analyzing input information between the software and the tonex pedal. Maybe this is why they have their own capture device. for consistency. So maybe you are right. There is no fix because there is no standard...except your fix, which IK does not address nor does most people know. Is it a big deal to IK? Should they let people know? Is there ANYTHING IK can do? That is what I am asking. No need to jump on me.
@@EmilioConesa If what I am understanding is correct, what Jason is outlining is the loss of headroom when doing things that way. The Gain control itself has the ability to push to +8.5 in either scenario.
@EmilioConesa I am sincerely happy you have found a way to work that works for you. I truly mean that. I have repeated this many times, if someone has a way that is working for them, they should stick with it. I personally wouldn’t be watching or commenting on these types of videos if I had a way that was working for me, I would simply be playing the sweet tones The thing you need to understand, is that I have been contacted by literally thousands of people having issues because of the very things I discuss in these videos. When I tell them how it works, it sorts the issue out for them and makes their experience better. There is no hypothesis in this video, there are just proven facts. This video was about how to set Tonex Pedal and Tonex software with various guitar interfaces, so they sound the same. Nothing more, nothing less. I gave the factual, provable settings to make that happen. I also pointed out some potential pitfalls that having too high a Global input Trim set. These are also facts if you are using anything but the lowest output guitars. I then told viewers how I like to work, which is my opinion. I have no way or desire to force people to work the way I do, and quite honestly, I don’t think about it beyond doing the videos. What individuals decide to do with this info is up to them. So, as I said, if you have a way to work that is different than mine, please carry on, you will get no argument from me. Also realize that there are MANY people who are struggling to get things working with their setup and these videos are designed to help them, and they have.
@@JasonSadites I maintain the problem is using your method with signature captures means I have to adjust each one instead of plug and play. There’s no consistency, no standard. And again I ask why would Ik give us a default so far off. If it works for you and others that’s fine but it doesn’t make sense to me and ruins the gain structure of captures I’ve purchased. I sure would like to hear what Mesa, Dumble, Satriani, Amalgum and other Tonex partners are setting their global input to.
And THAT, my friends, is precisely why any modeler will never beat an amp. I have the ToneX and Kemper and it’s a mess when it comes to this stuff. Sometimes I’ll just mic an amp Instead, and it pays off every time. Sadly…
It’s only a mess if you are trying to make it sound exactly the same. I just find what works great and it takes less time than dialing in an amp for me
just put some efforts, then you can get very similar sounds as ten of thousands dollars with only $180. also think about the fact that we have to get a dedicated house or studio to get those amps sounds like what they should be. All you need is just study
We should be grateful to this gentleman for his time and effort.
Thank you so much for the kind words and glad the videos are helpful :-)
@@JasonSadites very helpful, you've taught me how to use my helix and now my tonex.
@redkurn glad the videos have been helpful :-)
Absolutely grateful
@@JasonSadites they have been very helpful, I am left with a bit of a question. In the video your interface has the same 12.5 @ minimum gain, you set to -4.5dB to zero between the pedal and plugin (assume app as well), my interface has the same rating, but I’ve been using +2.5dB only my the pedal and during my testing found I needed +8dB app and +13dB on the plugin to match. Why do I have such a discrepancy where in your case the tones match? Using your models, tone junkie and random others including that I’ve made.
I’ve finally cleared my pedal up and loaded my own captures and got a few of yours to test there as well, honestly a bit confused to why I (and one other I know of) am having to scale the input levels to match and why with 12.5dB subtract, but if 21dB you’d need to add 10dB.
Almost deleted this long question because I feel like it’s been answered, I just don’t get it I suppose.
I tried it and you're right! I play with a scarlet interface with the tonex software, mainly with capures from Amalgan, and initially had the input level very high (just before red), which didn't sound good. Later I set the input level on the interface to 0, which was better. After your video I tried again and your suggestion sounded the best by far: input level to -11dB!
Because the scarlet has -12.5dB when the input pot is turned back, I increased the input level by 1.5dB in the tonex software and the sound is better than ever before!
What I also found out is very important for me: the output level of the Tonex software shouldn't be too high! I had it at +1.5dB which worsened the sound and sometimes led to unwanted distortion. With the output level set to 0 it sounds significantly better!
Jason great video!!!! I really appreciate your helping me with my RME UFX III and matching the levels correctly. You have done an excellent job explaining how to adjust for the issues people are having with the unit. I know this was a lot of work to put together and I am sure many of us are very happy. Thank you!!!!
@braxal6983 thank you so much and totally my pleasure 🙂 Really glad I could be of help and that it is working better for you 😀
Absolutely brilliant as always Jason. The community can never thank you enough for what you do in supporting us. What does this equate to when using Tonex pedal as an interface in relation to the global interface volume?
Guys in TGP bully you without any reason, but I think your statements are logical, and reasonable.
Keep going my man!
Thank you :-) TGP can be an interesting place at times!
Your tips are fantastic.
Congratulations.
It would be interesting if you did the same using the Tonex One which does not have a display.
TY Jason, it clears the input trim issues I had, because I was guiding myself with the input trim led and i understood it doesn't have to be exactly accurate to try to be in Ok ( green).
Jason great points. Going DI to any interface even from a modeler, level output or thru-put has got to be considered. Over saturation can be a problem especially if you are gain stacking depending on the effect type, especially overdrives, distortions, amp gain, etc. Headroom, as you say is so important.
Thanks Mate. Love your work!
Very important technical information every one should know. Well done.
Thank you so much :-)
Hi Jason! Very helpful explanation! Thanks! One question: How do customers find the right input gain to recreate the most authentic sound of a particular amp (tone model) in the first place? Don’t we need to know the input gain of the audio interface used by the creator of the Tone Model? What about the tone models that ship with the pedals (Tonex / Tobex One) or purchased Tone Models in general (ik MM, Signature, Partners)? I would assume that at least the models the pedals ship with should be created for a 8dbu input trim to sound best (or at least most „realistic“ in comparison to the captured amp) when sticking to the default input trim of the hatdware those models come with) As I understand it, that’s not the case though? So for customers who use purchased tone models, wouldn’t it be necessary to know the exact gain level and/or interface used within the creation process of the tone models to recreate the most authentic sound? There has been a great research done by a guy named Ed S about the topic and some vendors told their figures yet I think ik MM is not clear about this? What about your tone models for example? Do you (or would) you recommend setting the levels so tahte they match your settings when you created them? Or am I misunderstanding the whole concept? Thanks!
I can only comment on the tone models I create. I make mine to sound exactly as I capture them that when an audio interface is set so that 0 dBu = -11dBfs. This would equate to setting Tonex Pedal Global Input Trim to -3.0 dB with the Gain Knob of the tone model at 5.0. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites This is some info that everyone creating models should provide.
@@JasonSadites One bit that is missing in the video is that you can leave the HiZ input to the minimum and then you can raise the level in the digital domain (any daw can do this). If a model actually needs +8.5 in the pedal to be accurate you can match it in the plugin without clipping by raising the level in your track using whatever utility your daw provides to do this.
@yacreader I completely agree everyone creating tone models should provide this info.
@yacreader yes you can most certainly work that way also. But you still have the issue with Tonex Pedal used as an interface with Global Input Trim at +8.5 dB you will make the USB Dual out feature pretty much useless with anything but the lowest output guitars. It never makes sense to run things so close to the limit, IMO.
EDIT: Also, to add another important piece of info, the reason I spoke of using the interface gain is because in the Tonex Software manual it suggest this method of bumping up your audio interface gain until clipping and then backing off again.
The plugin can also be run at higher sample rates which seems to improve the sound. I prefer the plugin over the pedal, there is definitely more depth to sound of the plugin.
Do these concerns apply to the Tonex One?
I was not able to find the 0dBu=-8dBfs in the documentation. Thank you very much, Jason!
My pleasure! It isn't in the documentation so I measured it myself 🙂
Thanks for the great tutorials Jason. Is there a simple setting to balance the Software and Pedal if you are not using a DAW? Thanks.
Yes, I was wondering the same thing since the Tonex pedal can also function as a USB audio interface.
Hi Jason, appreciate all of your great and helpful content. I am expecting delivery of a white ToneX pedal this week. I’ve never used one. My interface is a Presonus Audiobox and the manual says instrument input max headroom is +21dbu. Isn’t that really high? Not sure how to setup my pedal input to be correct when I get it. This kinda confusing to me.
Great video!🔥🔥🔥🔥
@@OldSchoolSoundATX thank you!
You bet! I appreciate the time and dedication you take to put out these videos! I have done a few and it is not easy. The worst part for me is being on camera and talking lol. Something you are very good at! Keep up the Great work! @JasonSadites
Great video! Why is the maximum input level mentioned with a minus (-) eg. in the Apollo Twin x manual?
Thanks so much! In every Apollo Twin X manual it is not stated with a minus as far as I have seen.
Very helpful. I misunderstood your earlier video and had my pedal set at +0.0. Better, but I have to look up the gain on my interface now and set the pedal properly. I actually tried using the pedal as the interface but … no, not loving that. Many thanks.
Great knowledge, thanks for sharing
My pleasure :-)
Thank you thank you thank you! And I have Apollo Solo perfect😊
I really have the opposite problem. Full input trim, full output dB and full volume on the pedal does not amount to nearly the same level as the plugin with the same preset. This is even with Fluence humbucker and a boost in between.
Hi Jason, thanks for the tips and fantastic tones, but I have another challenge for you, Tonex Software when used Standalone sounds great, but inside the DAW as a Plugin VST it sounds very different, reveal more of this mystery to us.
Great video: Kind of blows my mind that the company that created both these products did not set the appropriate default level. They created their own problem, and apparently this resulted in some returns and some loss of interest in the product. I would hope the white version and the update would take this into consideration.
Thank you :-) There is no "appropriate default" level unfortunately. As I mention in the video, every audio interface anyone uses will have different specs. IK set +8.5 as the default but also state in the manual you need to change this depending on the guitar you use. The problem is that some people out there suggest leaving this at +8.5 would cause a lot of potential issues (i.e potential issues with Dual USB Out and matching software and pedal to sound the same being a couple). The Global Input Trim was never meant to be set and forget at that high a level, you will simply run out of headroom with anything but the lowest output guitars in certain situations as I have laid out clearly in this and the previous video. The other issue is constant menu diving to set and re-set the Global Input Trim. Which is why I suggest you run the Global Input Trim with more headroom to handle almost all guitars and never touch it again and simply use the Gain Knob (which does the exact same thing as Global Input Trim) to control if you need more or less gain hitting the front of the tone model. Hope that helps :-)
I politely disagree that's there's no appropriate default level ;) Fractal and other devices default to a safe low gain to ensures basically any guitar can be plugged in without clipping the converters yet the noise floor remains lower than the traditional equipment being modeled. And if folks have a low output guitar and want to adjust that, then they can and can get even lower noise. But there are two key parts here: 1) The default is sufficient for almost any guitar, even if not optimal. 2) ADJUSTMENTS TO INTERFACE GAIN ARE AUTOMATICALLY OFFSET BY SOFTWARE GAIN! Then you're truly only adjusting the headroom of the interface, and never adjusting the model's response to a given guitar!
Killer track at the end! Caught me off guard
Thanks so much 🙏🏻 😊
Thanks for great and informative video. You mentioned that the Tonex pedal has a maximum input level of 8 dBu. May I ask, what's your source for this information?
My pleasure! Sure thing, I measured it myself :-)
Great stuff Jason! I have a general question about Tonex pedal. Have you tried using a Line 6 Power Cab as the output? Just running it with no speaker emulation and flat speaker setting on the Power cab produces way too much bass tone. Changing the eq on the Tonex doesn’t help. Any ideas? Thanks!
Hey Jason, I really enjoy your videos. I run my Helix as my audio interface. Do you know max input level for Helix, I was unable to find it. TY
@davidglastetter7746 thank so much! Max input level for Helix is 11.5 dBu. That would equal Tonex Pedal with Global Input Trim in -3.5 dB. Hope that helps :-)
Excellent information.
There are enough confusing problems already between levels for Audio Interfaces and Software Suite plugins e.g Amplitube, Helix Native, Guit Rig etc.
I'm running a Quantum 2632 and I'm finding a guitar 'SweetSpot' at +13.
Any higher than that and 'Clean' tones just aren't clean.
When running at 0 Gain in the Inst i/p everything is too low unless I pile on Gain in the DAW or on the plugin.
I have yet to compare TONEX Pedal side by side with TONEX software as you have done here.
I'll give it a go, out of interest. 👍
Hi Jason, How about dialing this on Amp Return Signal and FRFR Speaker? Thank you in advance
Great explanation - but: What about the Input Trim at 0 db, which shows "low on the Tonexpedal? Doesn´t it matter and affects the sound in a bad way`?
I always ignore the Low/Ok/High indicator as it does not really gives us any meaningful information. Hope that helps :-)
What about „main volume“ in global setting“? How do you set that?
Would this also help with my issue of too much feedback when using high gain tones on my tonex live?
So exact and GOOD!
3:38 But what are we hearing here? where is the sound coming from? I don't understand what you are trying to explain.
Is your Guitar plugged into the TONEX and then recorded from there, or is it fed into a PA or your PC/laptop? what? and obviously your DAW is on your PC/Laptop... but again what are we hearing, internal, fed out through a PA/Speakers -- what?
and what do you mean by two different instances of the same tone model? How can you be playing a TONEX tone model without TONEX?
Anyone konw if the Tonex One also has a max input gain of 8Dbu? (I don't see it noted in the manual)
Yes it does :-)
thank you Jason!
@@vladislavolshevskiy3049 my pleasure 🙂
Thank you!
I don’t know if I have missed any videos of yours but how about Tonex one? Great video!
Thank you! All the same settings talked about in this video concerning Tonex Pedal will also apply to Tonex One.
Wasn't there also announced an desktop pedal editor lately or am i wrong?
I wonder if this would clear up problems like this or will cause more confusion when folks tweak their presets to work on the pedal am later wonder why these don't work on the mix using the plugin.
This was awesome. My interface has max input of +18 dBu (Arturia Audiofuse Studio). So based on that, I will set Tonex pedal input trim to -10dB. One question though. With my Strandberg Prog NX7 (Fishman Fluence active pickups), I am clipping my interface at min input gain. What is best practice for dealing with that? A) I could activate a 20dB pad and adjust gain but then I would need to further reduce Tonex input trim; B) I could reduce the volume of my guitar (though that would not be consistent).
BTW if I clip my interface at 18dBu won't I also have an issue clipping my Tonex pedal?
Another great video Jason. Compliments! I was wondering: what if I used the Tonex Pedal as a USB audio interface, to create my own presets from software (and then move them to the Tonex Pedal) where would I adjust the volume? There doesn't seem to be a way to adjust an input volume, unless it's the trim input on the Tonex Pedal, at which point I should adjust the Tonex Pedal's trim input to the same value as the software's trim input? I guess so, but it would be great if you could make one of your great videos explaining this. Thanks for what you do!
There's no such thing as input volume. Volume controls are on the output of a component, not the input. The most important thing to get right is analog gain. Volume controls are transparent. They can't alter the signal in a good or bad way. They just attenuate. Any time you see trim, you're working with a digital signal. Trim is considered to be "digital gain", but its not the same thing. Gain is created by amplifying the signal. Trim is adjusted by altering the bit rate. Analog gain is used to get the overall tone you're looking for. Once you have gain set, trim is used to make fine adjustments on the input without altering the fundamental tone. Because volume can't alter the signal, you worry about that last. Once you set your gain structure properly, you use a volume control to set how loud you want it to be, without having to worry about overdrive or distortion changing the tone of your signal.
@Mr.G_989 Great question! When working with Tonex Pedal as an interface, in Interface mode and the pedal preset/tone model bypassed as you need it to be. The pedal Global Input Trim does nothing at all as you may have already noticed. What you would want to do is set your Global Gain Knob of your software to the same value you set your Tonex Pedal Global Input Trim at. Everything should work beautifully after that! Let me know if that helps :-) Thanks for the great question!
@@JasonSadites Thanks for your reply! After following your videos, I thought it was ok to set the Global Gain knob of my software and the Tonex pedal Global Input Trim to the same value. It worked perfectly, the procedure is correct! Thanks so much!
Completely my pleasure :-)
Great video, thanks! For anyone who can help: on Tonex One, where on the trim knob is -3db? Is all the way to the left -15 and all the way to the right +15, with straight up being 0db, so -3 would be a little to the left of centerline?
@kevinraskoff655 thank you and yes thar is correct 🙂 You can also hook Tonex One up to computer and use Librarian within Tonex app. There are settings that you can use to set it by numerical value. Hope that helps :-)
Thanks, Jason. If IK isn’t paying you for your services they should!
Thanks for the clarification!
I tried to find the maximum input gain of the Tonex One, but its not in the manual or at IK Multimedias website. Is it the same?
@@49k2r3 my pleasure! It is the same.
Do you have to use an Audio interface to use the Tonex pedal with the software? i’m new to TONEX and have one of the anniversary models on order. Hopefully they release a dedicated pedal editor soon!
Tonex pedal can act as your audio interface when you put it into Interface Mode in Global Settings. They have an announced an editor will be coming in the not too distant future. Hope that helps :-)
I am thinking of getting the ToneX pedal.
can I buy the ToneX software and use it in Cubase without the need of the hardware unit if all I want to do is record guitars in Cubase?
How did you setup ToneX for this video? Did you use the Physical outputs of the ToneX into your soundcard or via USB in Sound Card mode?
If the software sounds identical to the Hardware Unit why use the hardware unit in Cubase? Its confusing.
Really interesting stuff Jason. Given the software is the heart of Tonex this is really useful. So my Focusrite solo instrument level is -12.5db at zero.... You say the pedal is -8db at zero.... so if I add 4.5db to the input trim on the software are you saying that would be the same as the pedal at 0db?
Thanks! If your Focusrite interface max input level is 12.5 dBu, since Tonex Pedal max input level is 8.5 dBu, you would either set Tonex Pedal at -4.5 dB to match your audio interface at minimum gain. Or, you could run the Tonex Software with the Input Level knob on +4.5 dB to match Tonex Pedal at 0.0 on the Global Input Trim. Better yet , you could run your audio interface at minimum gain, Tonex Pedal at 0.0 and adjust the Gain Knob per tone model to 6.5 and then that would be a saveable parameter per preset. All of those scenarios will match the software and pedal. Hope that helps :-)
I tried it yesterday with the Focusrite and it sounded best at -11 dB like you suggested. This means that the imput potentiometer on the interface was turned back (-12.5dB) and I increased the imput in the software by 1.5dB (to -11dB).
If I understood correctly, that corresponds to -3dB for the Tonex pedal.
Okay, I'm confused.
I'm using a Tonex ONE in the loop of HX Stomp. No problems so far.
At home I use an HX Stomp XL as the interface for my guitar into the PC.
Using the Tonex ONE on its own - I set the input level on my Strat by getting a decent bright green light on the 'Microknob 3' as per manual and that translates as about '+11'. It's almost up full.
Using the Tonex Software - the Input dial (bottom left corner) is set to '+12.9" and even then the green indicator doesn't register beyond the 'T' in the word 'INPUT'.
It all works perfectly but what am I not understanding here. Is this an interface issue? Why are my levels SO LOW compared to Jason's?
Thanks for the video. Do Tonex Pedal and Tonex One have the same input level?
My pleasure 🙂 Yes they do!
Sweet. Haven't tried this on tonex one... Can we see it on the software librarian when we have the pedal via USB or do we have to go by ear?
@@JasonSadites nevermind answering... just did myself the favor and watched your video on tonex one input trim. THANK YOU SO MUCH for your videos. You rock.
My pleasure and glad the videos have been helpful :-)
Useful tip
Understood the problem.
However maximizing the input gain of any interface gives you an advantage, that is the ADC's range will be maximized as well.
As a consequencethe quantization error (which translates into noise) of the ADC is minimized. So I would use a different workaround:
- setup the audio IF used for TONEX SW to the gain that gets you to almost clipping
- setup TONEX PEDAL input gain to the maximum
- In your DAW, place a plain gain stage virtual instrument (almost every DAW has on in its default VST lybray) to compensate for the loss (or "gain") in dB that your audio IF has VS the TONEX pedal
This way, you will always be exploiting your hardware at its best and the levels will be aligned with the TONEX before your signal "enters" the SW.
Please let me know what you think...
@@emmanuelgranatello1896 Tonex Pedal A/D conversion is before the Global Input Trim. You will get no benefit whatsoever as far as boosting Global Input Trim. Hope that helps.
@@JasonSadites Really? I would have never said that. It seems weird to me because in that case there would be no way to adapt different guitars/basses to the ADC range. Also, how could the user know if they are clipping the ADC ? Did you get that info from the IK multimedia guys?
@emmanuelgranatello1896 th-cam.com/video/aavIIAXxVdU/w-d-xo.html
@@JasonSadites I get your observation from the video. But you start from the assumption that when the pedal is bypassed the signal is still going to be converted in digital and then back to analog. How can you be sure about this ?
Couldn't it be that the bypass signal is taken instead before the ADC and, if my theory would be right, actually before the input trim?
PS: I am not dissing here, I am just very courious to know how it works by someone that spends a lot of time and studies with this object :)
@emmanuelgranatello1896 how would the bypassed signal show up in the DAW if it hadn't been converted to digital yet?
But....What is you're going from your ToneX pedal straight to your power amp, then cabinet? Is it good to have the "Input Trim" at zero? Or can the "Input Trim" be turned higher just below saturation? I play really clean.
The level going to your power amp is the OUTPUT level. That has nothing to do with INPUT level. You can still leave the Input Trim at 0.0 and use the Gain Knob to boost it if you like and then you can save that as a preset :-) Hope that helps!
I'm still confused. Should I run my audio inteface at 0db gain? My audio interface (iRig HD 2) specs don't include the Maximum Input Level. Neither does my other audio interface (AXE I/O Solo). In fact, neither does the TONEX One pedal. So it seems like IK isn't giving enough information to make these types of adjustments.
I am not sure about the iRig HD 2. The Axe I/O Solo has a maximum input level of 12.5 dBu and Tonex One Pedal has Maximum input level of 8.0 dBu. If you left the Axe I/O at minimum gain it would be the same as Tonex One set to Global Input Trim of -4.5 dB. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites That helps a lot. Thank you.
@@keithbenedict8764 my pleasure 🙂
How was the guitar hooked up to both the audio interface as well as the TONEX pedal during this experiment? Seemed you were switching using your DAW, not switching using an A/B/Y pedal or something. Was it going through your interface before hitting the pedal?... and if so, how do you guarantee it's the same level as if it were direct from guitar into pedal? Thanks.
I feed my guitar it into a Radial splitter designed for this purpose. I have then measured the outputs of the splitter with a multimeter to verify they are the same. So yes, they were precisely the same. Thanks for the great question :-)
@@JasonSaditesthanks so much for the time to explain.
I have a Morley ABY that I'll try to replicate the setup with. Would be super useful to know that the pedal will sound exactly like the plugin.
I've watched your videos back and forth along with this one which advocates using your interface at non-minimum (i.e. as high as it'll go without clipping). th-cam.com/video/gJ59h7xfvdI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FgIoUexoXkmud1H7
I ended up getting 5 more dB of usable range compared to running my interface at minimum because my peaks went up 20 dB but my noise floor only went up 15 dB.
Now I just need to figure out how much to trim it back (probably using the Ableton Utility plugin) so that the TONEX plugin sounds the same as the pedal at -3.
Meanwhile I'm just a beginner/intermediate... I should practice more rather than get OCD obsessed about these things matching up ;-)
I would completely ignore that video. By his own admission he used the cheapest interface possible and then purposely used it in a manner that it was never meant to be used (i.e running a high headroom input at minimum gain AND engaging the Input Pad to exaggerate results). Can I ask what audio interface you are using?
@@JasonSadites I have a Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 (3rd gen). I gained 5dB of range by using gain on my interface. Hard for me to understand why that'd be a bad thing. This is a bit out of my wheelhouse.
@FunkyELF can I ask specifically how you are measuring the "5 dB range improvement"?
On the software ( not the interface I have at zero), what should the input gain level be at? I tend to leave it alone at 0 I guess and not alter , I use the Apollo x with a strat , thanks!
I never touch the software input level. It isn't a parameter that can be saved so might as well use the Gain Knob which does exactly the same thing and then you can save the settings to a preset. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites great, thanks for answering!
My pleasure 🙂
+++ TNX Jason, my Arturia Studio Fuse Interface has 18 dbu Input gain so i have to ad +10db on the Interface to match 0db on the Tonex-pedal, right?+++
subtract 10. -10dB on the tonex pedal to match the app while using the fuse interface. for example, his interface and my 4i4 gen3 are both 12.5dBu, the tonex pedal is 8dBu, 12.5-8=4.5 to match level the tonex pedal needs to be set to -4.5dB which will keep from pushing a amp model beyond where it should start.
Is this true if you're not using the min gain setting on your interface? I.e, suppose your gain knob is up a third of its travel. Do you still subtract 4.5 dB from Tonex pedal?
@@bravinneff7932 no, you've already exceeded 0dBu unity level you are going for. you should have your interface at the minimum input gain and set to instrument, look up the spec for your interface, it will look similar to
Instrument inputs:
Frequency response20Hz - 20kHz ± 0.1dB
Dynamic range110dB (A-weighted)
THD+N Maximum output level (0 dBFS)12.5dBu (at minimum gain)
we are interested in where i highlighted with ->, that is 0.
@@bravinneff7932 hi, i found out, when input gain on the interface is zero, the tonemodels in the software are very weak and quite. Yes i have to turn up the gainnob on the interface about half to have nice full sound. In other plugins like Helix native and Neural dsp it has to be at minimum to get the best result. The Tonexpedal i use mostly in Helix FX loop and the Trim in Tonexpedal at about 5. Its kind of strange ...
@redkurn thank you for the help. I thought I understood this, but I guess not. I use an RME 802 fireface, and it's DI input has 6 dB of gain even with the knob all the way down, theres no way to lowe it. It's max input spec is 21dB at min gain. Are you saying I should keep the gain knob all the way down on my instrument DI input no matter what?
How does this relate if I use the ToneX pedal (one) as the audio interface? I would not need any correction right? Or is a minus 4 to 0 setting be a good thing anyway?
When working with Tonex Pedal as an interface, in Interface mode and the pedal preset/tone model bypassed as you need it to be. The pedal Global Input Trim does nothing at all as you may have already noticed. What you would want to do is set your Global Gain Knob of your software to the same value you set your Tonex Pedal Global Input Trim at. Everything should work beautifully after that! Let me know if that helps :-) Thanks for the great question!
@@JasonSadites Works perfectly thnx! A related question... how about global volume on the ToneX One pedal does nothing at all in interface mode too right? Now... there is a global settings window where the input trim of the pedal is shown. Moves around when fiddling with the input trim on the pedal. Is there a place where I can read what the global volume is set to? Trying to figure out what to set it too inbetween pedals (feeding the return of my Blackstar HT40).
An aside…would you say if your strictly looking for an amp modeler for recording into a pc and writing with, the software rather than pedal is the best bet?
If you are just working within your computer Tonex software with an audio interface would be the way to go, IMO. Hope that helps!
@@JasonSaditesit does. Thank you!
I think the video is useful, but for me the input trim cannot be set at 0. What I found is that for the way I set my audio interface (Scarlett Focusrite 2i2 third generation), if I want to have the same exact sound between pedal and software, I have to set my input trim on the pedal at 6.5. My problem is that with the Scarlett I cannot set a precise input gain, I have to use the knob, so I set it on a level just before the sound clips, leaving the Tonex software input and output at 0. With this settings I have the input trim on the pedal at 6.5 but this might differ from person to person based on the interface used and on the input gain set on that interface.
The real issue you are having which is easily fixed is that you should not be adjusting the gain on your interface to clipping and then backing it off. That way you have to constantly adjust for every guitar. Leave it at minimum, which will give you enough headroom for the vast majority of guitars. You will never have to move this and you won't be close to clipping with most guitars. With your 2i2 at minimum this will sound identical to the Toenx Pedal set at -4.5 on Global Input Trim. You set that and then leave it alone. If you need to hit the tone model/ preset with more input gain you can simply use the Gain Knob within Tonex to do so and that feature is saveable per preset. Hope that helps :-)
@@JasonSadites thank you very much for your response. I had tried something similar to what you are saying, with input in my interface set at the same level for all my guitars, but I noticed a problem with my clean sounds with low single coils guitar, maybe I am missing something... I give you an example. Suppose I use a single coil guitar, with the input in my interface just before clipping, I have a fender tweed amp with gain at 8 and volume at 3.5: the sound is perfect, just in the edge of breakup. If I set the input in the interface low as you are saying, to have the same preset volume as before I need to set the volume near 10, and here's the problem: the sound is super clean, not at the edge of breakup like before. Am I missing something obvious?
Just to understand the situation you are describing here. Are you talking a Fender Tweed Amp tone model within Tonex? When you say preset volume I am not clear what you are talking about.
@@JasonSadites yes I am talking of a tweed amp tone model inside the Tonex software, when I say "volume" I am referring to the volume knob that I see in the view of the amp inside the preset.
Oh ok, thanks for clarifying :-) So the Model Volume within Tonex does not change the way the tone model sounds as far as hitting the front of it with more or less level. So that is a different discussion than the input level. What I would do if I were you is add less again to your audio interface so it matches up with Tonex Pedal at Global Input Trim of 0.0 (that would be equivalent to adding +4.5 dB to your audio interface). That would still leave you a nice amount of headroom so you won't clip. Than wishing your Tonex Tweed Preset instead of running Gain Knob on 8 run it on 10 and it should sound the same. Hope that helps :-)
I still can't figure it out sorry....shouldn't the pedal and the software sound the same if my, lets say Tonex Pedal Global Trim Input Level is set to 0 as in the Input knob level from software also set to 0 and of course not using another audio interface and just use the the ToneX Pedal as the audio Interface? i think is due to IK Multimedia to fix this differences if any...What you guys think of it?
Brilliant.
@@randylearguitar thank you 😊
I don’t know why inputs gain -12 DBFS isn’t common knowledge by now. It wasn’t for me, and I’ve spent way too many hours searching for ideal input gain. -12 is what most, if not all plugins use.
It’s where the yellow marker starts on all VU meters.
I hope this helps anyone else. I wish that IK could update the firmware to actually read out the input DB instead of Low ,OK, and High. The Pedals OK input I believe is also -12.
Not all plugins use that, not at all, it can be much higher than that, e.g. 0dbfs, neural dsp uses -13, etc. It’s information that should be provided for every plugin in order to get accurate results. For tonex captures is going to depend on the vendor.
wow tonex pedal is 8dBu??? no wonder +5.5dB sounded right on the app when the pedal was at 0... was only 1dB hotter matching by ear which means in my case with a gen 3 4i4 i'm only 7dB hotter now. reason i am stuck on it is when i am making captures (you've said their di is 3dB hotter) i am trying to match to that. i'm going to give -4.5dB a try app and plugin at +0dB and if it's not lining up for me i'll try what other plugins need and add +1dB to the app and since i've done the work and math finding the level to match... +6dB on the plugin.
thank you for what you do jason, been doing captures for 3 weeks straight and definitely want to get back to playing.
maybe it is because i am using a boss wl-50 or akg wireless system, but on the app being +8 my cleans are still clean and my gains sound the same with the pedal at +2.5. i think that is the reason i am having difficulty with it, that or my wireless systems both do not hit the hardware like a cable would?
Great tutorial. IK should be more consistent and open with the input level stuff. There is no definitive guidline which would be REALLY needed!
So if somebody tries out a tonex, everything has to much gain at 8,5. I mean why? The make their own product sound worse!
Thank you! IK suggest in the manual to adjust the Global Input Trim depending on the guitar you have plugged into it, so it was never meant to just be left at +8.0. It is a lot of hassle to always have to menu dive to Global settings, so you can simply set the Global Input Trim lower to give enough headroom for all your guitars and then use the Gain Knob to adjust per guitar if needed. That way you can also save the Gain Knob setting per preset and not have to menu dive. Hope that helps :-)
Why can't I k multimedia, find a way to fix this
@matthewearl9824 Fix what? All audio interfaces are different. Unless they had the power to make all audio interfaces on the market have the same specs they can't "fix it". Understanding how it all works makes it very easy for the end user to match things up as I showed in the video.
@@JasonSadites meta data and analyzing input information between the software and the tonex pedal. Maybe this is why they have their own capture device. for consistency. So maybe you are right. There is no fix because there is no standard...except your fix, which IK does not address nor does most people know. Is it a big deal to IK? Should they let people know? Is there ANYTHING IK can do? That is what I am asking. No need to jump on me.
@@EmilioConesa If what I am understanding is correct, what Jason is outlining is the loss of headroom when doing things that way. The Gain control itself has the ability to push to +8.5 in either scenario.
@EmilioConesa I am sincerely happy you have found a way to work that works for you. I truly mean that. I have repeated this many times, if someone has a way that is working for them, they should stick with it. I personally wouldn’t be watching or commenting on these types of videos if I had a way that was working for me, I would simply be playing the sweet tones The thing you need to understand, is that I have been contacted by literally thousands of people having issues because of the very things I discuss in these videos. When I tell them how it works, it sorts the issue out for them and makes their experience better.
There is no hypothesis in this video, there are just proven facts. This video was about how to set Tonex Pedal and Tonex software with various guitar interfaces, so they sound the same. Nothing more, nothing less. I gave the factual, provable settings to make that happen. I also pointed out some potential pitfalls that having too high a Global input Trim set. These are also facts if you are using anything but the lowest output guitars. I then told viewers how I like to work, which is my opinion. I have no way or desire to force people to work the way I do, and quite honestly, I don’t think about it beyond doing the videos. What individuals decide to do with this info is up to them. So, as I said, if you have a way to work that is different than mine, please carry on, you will get no argument from me. Also realize that there are MANY people who are struggling to get things working with their setup and these videos are designed to help them, and they have.
@@JasonSadites I maintain the problem is using your method with signature captures means I have to adjust each one instead of plug and play. There’s no consistency, no standard.
And again I ask why would Ik give us a default so far off.
If it works for you and others that’s fine but it doesn’t make sense to me and ruins the gain structure of captures I’ve purchased.
I sure would like to hear what Mesa, Dumble, Satriani, Amalgum and other Tonex partners are setting their global input to.
I ordered a Tonex. It’s being shipped. I hope I can figure this out 🥴
Not at all
Tonex manual sucks.
And THAT, my friends, is precisely why any modeler will never beat an amp. I have the ToneX and Kemper and it’s a mess when it comes to this stuff. Sometimes I’ll just mic an amp Instead, and it pays off every time. Sadly…
It’s only a mess if you are trying to make it sound exactly the same. I just find what works great and it takes less time than dialing in an amp for me
just put some efforts, then you can get very similar sounds as ten of thousands dollars with only $180.
also think about the fact that we have to get a dedicated house or studio to get those amps sounds like what they should be.
All you need is just study