There are some other plugins lacking input gain like Nembrini or Mercuriall. This problem is not understood by people who’ve never played a real amp. For instance if you own a Rectifier and set the gain at 5 it will sound and react to playing in a specific way. Then, connect the same guitar to your audio interface, set the gain on Amplitube’s Rectifier to 5 (I’m talking about the Rectifier approved by Mesa) and you’ll see….there’s a huge difference. That’s because the plugin is not calibrated correctly when they made it.
I'm currently trying out ToneX and I cannot believe how godawful it sounds. You might as well shove ice picks in my ears. It's not just the low gain part, but the sound of the JCM800 that comes up by default is insanely bad. I may be having a problem with my interface, I don't know. I've been trying to switch to plugins and it has been a real struggle. Actually I can't get a hardware modeler to sound right, either. Regular amps sound great but they are too loud for my current situation.
Check if you have two cabs/IR on the same amp! I've seen that in Amplitube 5, when people bring ToneX presets, they have to turn off Amplitube's cab in that application, because there's already one cab/IR set included in the ToneX preset. Just make sure that it isn't the case with the modeler and preset that you're using.
@@Juicexlx There was something wrong with my interface but I've gotten a new one since then. The default Marshalls that come up in Tonex are still awful to my ears, but if I use a different plugin for IRs they sound fine.
When Jason says “This does not matter” it’s really incorrect and bad advice. You basically had it figured out at the end - if you want ToneX to sound accurate, you can set your DI to the level ToneX is asking to see (the one Jason says doesn’t matter). This doesn’t affect the capture, but it does allow you to check that it sounds correct at IK’s calibration. The problem is, it’s a much louder signal than most people track DI’s with. So once you know how much you have to boost by, you’re better off lowering your input level again, and using the gain slider in the plugin to boost back up. Most amp sim plugins need quite a loud signal internally, but they USUALLY boost behind the scenes to get to their level. For some reason IK doesn’t have this internal boost, and instead requires the user to boost. As far as I can tell, Softube are like this too (try their amp sims boosted by 12-15dB). The main issue is all A/D converters use a different dBU>dBFS calibration, so the same guitar signal on one interface could give a higher or lower signal than another. Software has no idea what interface you have. Most amp plugins these days have looked at the most commonly used interfaces and set their levels so they work for these. Some haven’t, and require manual adjustments to respond properly. Well done for taking the time to figure this out, it’s so important to get a correct response! You’re on the right track here - I linked you a thread on facebook that should help figure things more.
Im sure Jason had his reasons. I understand what he means in terms of the capture. It doesnt matter in terms of the final tone, the main difference was just the hiss. Granted something I edited out of the video was comparing the hiss to the original plugin, and when doing non volume compensated, it matched the way how the amp i was capturing was reacting, noise and all so in a way, it doesnt matter. Yeah I def went down the rabbit hole on a lot of forums regarding interface levels and A/D conversion. I felt like that was beyond the scope of this video and just wanted to provide a quick and concise answer. Thanks for your points and discussion!
@@XergioRMusic The converter reference level thing is why everyone has to compensate their input by different amounts to get the same response from HW. This also goes for any analog modelled plugin - they will have modelled it at a particular dBFS->dBU level, and sometimes they’ll let you adjust this so you can match it to your own HW and converters. Jason has his DI set quieter to avoid clipping, but when he makes a capture, the reamp signal isn’t attenuated. So the signal is reamped 15dB too hot, but because he has things calibrated for a lower level, the end result sounds OK. IMO the results would sound even better if he followed IK’s suggested levels a the ML training has been designed and optimised for those.
@@eds4754 I see what you're saying, but In this video though he tried making the capture with and without increasing his input and the resulting capture sounds the same, so still confusing. Even if if did produce different capture sounds, you still then have to go back and increase your ToneX input level to +15 for it to sound correct, which is still very odd (if that was normal, the default should be +15 not 0 in the software)
Damn. I gave up on Tone X because of the lack of gain in the profiles. I knew something was off but I couldn’t figure it out. Kudos and thanks for making this video. I really appreciate it!
Same for me but with amplitube. Every single amp sounds weak, thin and just .. weird. But it seems to work good for a lot of people so I think it is just that Amplitube and Tonex is very picky when it comes to which instrument input you use. For example I use Fireface UCX, their instrument input has 470KOhm input impedance (the recommendation for many amp sims is 1MOhm). The other amp sims seems to cope find with it but Amplitube don't. If I for example use the rockerverb amp with gain at 5 in STL Amphub and tries to match it in Amplitube 5, in Amplitube 5 I have to turn the input into SEVERE clipping before it even come close to that of the same amp in Amphub. I mean SEVERE clipping. And this is with amp gain at 5, so I'm not trying to achive something extreme gain-wise.
I have 15 guitars that all sound like crap going though Amplitube. And I mean very bad sounding. I stumbled across another YT video, where the person was using Neural DSP and having the same issue with gain. He mentioned he was using a Presonus Studio 1824c, and he started using a different interface to use the Neural DSP plugin. I too, am using a 1824c. But I also have a cheap (about $100) Behringer Ultragain Pro-8 Digital (Model ADA8000) running through my Presonus using ADAT, for 8 more mic inputs. I had never thought about plugging my guitar into the cheap Behringer interface, to see if Amplitube sounded correct. Well guess what.. It did! I was about ready to give up on Amplitube, but holy crap does it sound good now. Maybe this might help someone else, using a Presonus interface, that can't get Amplitube to sound right. Cheers!
I don’t know man, your input level in amplitube is too low. I usually calibrate to -18rms before amplitube. And green indicator matches the knob in amplitube. Your green indicator is completely at the bottom. That’s why you need to boost the amplitube input knob. Green indicator must match the knob like in everything else.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this. I've just been messing with Tonex for a few days now and I found out something. Maybe someone else has noticed, but it has to do with using just a pedal in Tonex software before the native amp sim in Logic that I use. I could use Amplitube and get the same results, but Tonex by itself seems to be much lighter on the processor. I don't have the pedal just the software. I've found that input in many cases needs to be boosted as you say for it to sound right, but the output of the Tonex plugin needs to be decreased the same number of dbs. The audio going out of the plugin is too hot if your going into a different amp sim. Turning the plugin off should be the same as disengaging the pedal with the plugin still active. If you don't decrease the output it sounds like a clean boost if the just the pedal, and not the plugin is turned off. Does that make sense?
Not that it's ok, but just plug the guitar in a DI box and the DI box in the sound interface and be done with it. The instrument level will be converted to line level and IK stuff will work ok. You should not have to do it but it's not like there is no solution until IK fixes this.
Truly disgusting behaviour by these devs - ZERO input level standardisation/help for the user on this critical aspect. It's currently a hot topic with lots of discussion...and lots and lots of people complaining of sh#t sounding plugins. S-Gear is the same in that it needs significant input gain. Pro tip: the best way to demonstrate the issue you experienced here is to use a clean patch. That way, if the input/gain was too low/high we'd all instantly hear. Don't use a distorted patch, for obvious reasons.
I think IK padded the input gain by -12/-15dB because, as far as I know, it's a common practice among amateur (and not only) guitarists to set the preamp gain of their audio interface just below the clipping limit, which, as you've noticed, is around -12/-15dB. The idea of setting the preamp of their audio interface to zero might be counterintuitive for many, and not everyone is aware that it's better to work with plugins this way.
THU has a calibration meter that asks you to raise the input level too, and then it has switch to raise the level between low/high output pickups, so you get the extra boost from a humbucker for example. So it is not only IK Multimedia. Jason has video where he says that he gets the right tones keeping a Clarett input to 0 (or +1db), but for me (with the same interface) it is not the case, I need to bump the input, and then with that minimum level, I can switch guitars and get different input levels as expected with a real amp. Checking real amps vs Amplitube 5, I can get AT5 to react like the real amp only when I have the right amount of input gain. The amount of gain really depends on your interface, not all interfaces will provide the same gain at 0 preamp level in the instrument input.
Someday, people will realize they will get mutch better sound with pedals before the soundcard input to a vst amp. Better yet, with some sort of high voltage tubes in the signal path. The latter is night and day.
Thanks for that video ! Strangely, I don't have this issue, maybe it's because I'm using ToneX with IK multimedia's AXE IO ? I never had to touch the input gain. And, on my pedal, I had to put the input trim at -4 or -5, for the captures to sound exactly the same than with AXE IO/the computer app
I think this depends very much on your audio interface, your pickups/guitar output level and the particular preset on AT5 (or ToneX). Different AT5 amp models and presets are made by different people so you may need to adjust slightly. For example, I have my guitar volume on max (pickup selector is at HH) and my Focusrite Scarlett input gain knob exactly in the middle, its indicator is showing green/orange (input is set to Instrument). In AT5 I select the first clean amp, '57 Champ with its cab and I set the input volume at 0.0db and output also at 0.0db. The input and output meters in AT5 stay green, no red clipping, they go to about 80-90%. The corresponding DAW channel is set to 0, meter shows level of -3 to 0db (depending on how hard I hit the strings). Sounds good to me, why would I want to change anything? If I change to the Dual Rectifier (default setting) I get the AT5 output clipping indicator going red, so to avoid this I have to back the AT5 output level to -2db. That's it, my DAW meter goes again up to 0db. Sounds good to me.
This makes sense, and I noticed this when making NAM profiles of my amps, and I needed to add a good amount of gain on the amp before modeling it so the model came out accurate to what I wanted without changing the input gain. It seems like calibrating this shouldn't be a super difficult task.
When you say "dry", it feels like when you're through a real amp and you turn down your gtr volume knob (with passive pickups at least) to a certain threshold where notes don't sustain long, the signal feels (and is) weak. I first experienced this through Neural DSP yesterday and I was "Hm, I'll turn the gate down", "oh, I'll turn it off", and it still had that weak and "die out quick" notes (I had to do long sustains and they lasted like 3 seconds before cutting, with LOTS of gain). I'll def' try that out, I also use Amplitube to will keep that in mind, thanks A LOT!
This is 100% correct. Almost all Tonex captures sound lifeless and/or underpowered, until you turn up the input gain in the software, and find a sweet spot. The amount of input gain necessary, will vary from capture to capture, but it improves the sound and character of an amp tremendously.
Thanks a lot! But can you please make a short list of your conclusions and what to do about it as user of these plug ins? You told a lot, but my English is not sufficient to hold on to the thread of the story….🙏🙏
I’m going to check this out. I’ve noticed that a lot of the drive and high gain models in TONEX sound kind of weird “out of the box” (to me at least). Noodling with the input gain on the pedal has helped, but I’ll try this in the software, and see how well it “travels” into the pedal. Thanks for your insights!
Def check out the Jason Sadites video called "The most important parameter on ToneX Pedal" or something. He talks more about this issue but i think you have to see if the issue is the same (12-15 extra gain) on the Input trim of the pedal.
@@XergioRMusic yeah, I actually saw that first, and it did help. The +12 in the program a separate issue to the gain reduction on the pedal. Things are definitely sounding more natural and considerably less “fizzy” on the drive / hi-gain tones.
I tend to clip on all amp sims using a itrack solo focusrite and a lp 50’s interface set at lowest valume possible zero and still get signal 😅 Im so lost with all this virtual amp world
Is the clipping audible? The one thing you want to make sure of, is knowing what controls in your signal chain are volume and which ones are gain. You have to know for certain. You can only damage, distort, overdrive, etc.., the signal with too much gain. Too much volume can't effect the signal at all. As long as your gain is set properly (use as much as you need in order for everything to work as intended, but no more), you can use volume controls without worrying about clipping the signal or redlining. You won't harm the signal as long as you're adjusting volume, not gain. Without knowing more about your signal chain, something like this can be the issue. That's why its so important to know what each control does. I know I don't have to tell you this, but if your audio interface has phantom power, never use it for anything other than a mic.
I've experienced the same thing. I noticed how low the input signal indicator by the input slider was and could feel that is was getting hit with weak signal (lack input causing lack of amp compression). Turning the input up in the presets did the trick. Feels and sounds better.
I have realized the same thing. It feels like the tonex has a high gain sound but does not feel like it by default. It makes it feel fake and hard to play. The pedal does not seem to have this problem versus the software
*Look my man, all you have to do is put an active circuit like a CLEAN BOOSTER PEDAL or even a REAL WAH PEDAL...!!!!! All I have between my guitar and my RME INTERFACE is a REAL DUNLOP WAH with a 9volt battery!!!!! This makes EVERYTHING CHANGE! .....Just having it there it tightens up the bottom and rounds the midrange and making it sound IDENTICAL to a real real amp.. The sold feel UMF and sound!!!....Amplitube 5 is the truth! I AM NOT EVEN USING A Hi-z...And if i need to address tone I just put an GRAPHIC EQ first in the chain on AMPLITUBE AND BOOM!*
I think the best explanation you can find is in STL Ignite's Emissary plugin user manual. Emissary was one of the first plugins, as far as I remember, to feature an input level adjustment; this is explained in the user manual: «Once your signal is converted to digital, it will be represented as a series of numbers that you can see as voltage values. [Here I disagree: they are just numbers, relative to the maximum resolution of the converters] These voltages [numbers!] can have a maximum and minimum value of 1.0 and -1.0 respectively. Supposing your input signal is peaking at its higher possible value right before the clipping threshold of the converter, it will be represented as 1.0 inside your host and Emissary will react to it like if you're sending a 1.0V signal to its input stage. Why is it so important to know these details? Because if your guitar pickup has a maximum output voltage higher than 1V (or 2V peak-to-peak), like many modern active pickups have, you'll need to adjust the input signal that's being sent to Emissary. That's where the Input Level control comes into play. You need to tweak it to *compensate the voltage scaling/normalization made by your AD converter*. «The Input level control applies a scaling factor to the input signal. For example, if your pickup has a maximum output of 1.5V (so 3V peak-to- peak), you'll need to set the control at 1.5x. By doing this, your input will be multiplied by 1.5, so Emissary will not be fed with a 1.0V maximum signal, instead, it'll get a 1.0V x 1.5 = 1.5V maximum signal, which is the correct value to match your pickup specifications.» Today, given the good quality of A/D converters, you could just set the input gain of your card as if you had a hot pickup, so that weaker pickups will generate lower signals (read: lower *numbers* in the digital input stream) without this having negative effect on the S/R ratio. This way you'll be good to go with a wide range of guitars and the model will always react according to the "level" of the input signal without the need to set the analog gain higher for weaker guitars *then* lowering the level with a digital trim. That's basically what Jason is suggesting; I agree with him when he disagrees on IK suggesting to set the input trim for each guitar, because this way you would lose the differences between guitars, but I disagree with his -3dB settings for the pedal: I personally use +4.5dB.
I have TONEX with my guitar going straight to TONEX and out to studio monitors. Global input at 0 and I have no issue at all with my Suhr guitars and my PRS with JB pickup on the bridge.
Im a complete novice in regards to audio equipment and software. However, I noticed that when you set your tonex pedal to serve as an interface, the presets in library sound weired. However, when you use tone models from tonex software or you switch the nonex pedal to "live" the same tones sound almost identical and pretty awesome.
It is a huge advantage to have the extra headroom in the input because I can use the drive, preamp, or fuzz that I want to going into it. I would never consider buying an amp profiler that was not designed to accept a boosted signal and react like an amp does (pushed when you boost it, and tame when you don't) ToneX is more of an old school mentality. It doesnt try to be some super pristine solution, its a quick and dirty cheap solution to take your rigs in the go. It is not designed to be a pristine perfect recording solution for the "perfect" mix. Who cares about that anyway 😂 forget sounding perfect, life is short
Amplitube 5 is great but yes a lot of amps are lacking. To compensate you have to compress, saturate and post process the hell out of them to get that tone 😂
Hey man, you are totally right, I've got Guitar Rig, Amplitube and Bias FX and when I am just blowing into the amp on Amplitube 5 there is seriously gain lacking. When I am on Bias FX my Input Gain is on half and the sound is already distorted as hell on metal amps. So this is a real mistake by Amplitube and should be fixed in the next version
I've came across the same problem, did the same test and got the same conclusion! Nice to know that I'm not alone, because everytime I write about this or other problem to IK's support they simply don't care that much, they always find some excuse instead to really check it and test it by their selves.. They should give more attention to all users not only to people on media channels 😅 but Jason has reason by setting the gain in the interface low, for me works the best with a low input gain from my interface and crank the input in tonex software. Cheers!
I'm so confused that in most videos, we are told to keep the input trim setting of the tonex pedal at 0db for humbucker guitars... But when I set it to 0db, I can't enjoy it at all... Isn't there a more or less correct setting for this pedal... dear friends, how do you adjust the imput trim setting? do you use ? What is your advice? Since I don't know how amplifiers actually sound, I don't understand what's right and what's wrong, and I'm unhappy... Thank you for the answers.
I have to state this clearly, I watch videos selling sound packages and it sounds amazing in the videos... When I download the free sample sound, it sounds like a fly buzzing... My guitar is Jackson SL1. If he tries a little more, he'll get bored.
Man I thought I was either crazy or just lost my engineering touch when I was messing with this. I’ve been in tracking land for years lately and haven’t played in mixing and all this sort of stuff and this thing has been driving me crazy as I’m trying to get TONEX to replace my Amplitube sim software. Figured it would be a no brainer considering ITS THE SAME MAKER!? But I am not happy with the TONEX yet and the low level shit is a huge reason why
If this complain is so extended between Amplitube users, why IK multimedia is not doing anything to solve it? I can see really old forum threads about this matter around internet.
I knew something wasn’t right. I stopped using amplitube as it just will not allow the same feel as other software. I guess I’ll revisit it and crank my input +15 db 🤷
I lost you when you say that guitar plugins expect "guitar level". Plugins (and digital models on hardware pedals, too), don't receive analog signals, they receive streams of digital data. As far as I know, in the digital domain, there's no "guitar level", in the same way as there is no "mic level".
You have it wrong, and its a common mistake. The industry does a very poor job of explaining certain things. A guitar puts out a single ended analog signal. Its not line level just like the signal from a mic and a turntable. They all need to be plugged into analog inputs that are designed to handle their particular signal. If you have something like a Tonex pedal or one, it has a guitar level analog input for a guitar. Once inside, the signal gets converted to digital, processed, and then converted back to analog so the signal can be sent next component, probably an amp. Also, any signal that runs through a copper wire is analog, even a digital signal. You can't send 1's and 0's through a piece of copper wire. Now, lets say you are using an audio interface instead of a Tonex pedal. Most of them have a guitar level input built in. The audio interface applies the correct gain and impedance needed for a guitar. The signal leaving the audio interface is treated as line level, analog or digital, depending on what you're doing. The uniqueness of the guitar signal has already ben dealt with in the audio interface. What you don't want is to have the Tonex plug in do the same thing twice. The plug in assumes a guitar signal by default. You need to change the input to line level or it will apply a lot more gain than you need.
lol, at least I can still hear gain and harmonics from your clip, my sounds like playing an Aluminium acoustic guitar on a broker speaker with both software. Not to mention the latency.
I wondered why I was at the sweet spot input level but it felt like I was struggling to get output without really hitting the strings hard. Boosting the input suddenly made it easy to play like it should be
you’re absolutely right here man, I’ve also noticed it. Also, there is a gain discrepancy between Tonex and AT5. Around 1.5dB difference between the two. Tonex sounds louder snd more alive than tonex within At5.The thing is it won’t sound the same regardless of any gain compensation. It is not as noticeable with full captures but DI captures using custom IRs sound lame in AT5.
yeah the gain staging in amplitube with tonex is weird. You basically can't make a clean boost because tonex doesn't seem to normalise to rms but the peak instead so more dynamic captures are quieter and you need a slight input gain increase to match.
I've adjusted gain +10db and it sound OK, but the clipping is there. i've adjusted my focusrite to max without yellow (clipping diod). Question is how to get rid of the clipping while saving the sound
set interface to zero so it's preamps are doing what they're supposed to, then gain it up as shown here. The videos this is responding to (I think it's the one THAT video was responding to) has a link to a spreadsheet on how much you need to increase gain for different amp sims. Many of us have been doing what you've been doing by backing the interface back from clipping just enough, but it's not necessary or appropriate as it turns out - according to the videos and discussions they spawn. I don't claim to know - I only know amplitude feels like a dry turd the way I've been using it. Off to try +15 and see if it helps.
Hey man! So I recently got tonex software and bought a tone pack. In videos it sounded amazing but on my focusrite solo it sounds so lackluster. Basically no gain/sustain. Do you know what issue I’m running into? Can’t figure it out
@@davidthomas9960 I did not, I just gave up because I could not find out why it sounded so bad. My gear sounds great in any other plug-in but this one. And I tried uninstalling and reinstalling but still nothing.
You know I've been doing that even though I didn't see this. I was just thinking that atleast the sound and feel is different when the signal is healthy by using that slider
What I found weird on lots of tone models is that the DI tracks included on tonex to test the tone models , sound louder, but not always hotter. So I don't think is only a matter of input levels.
I respectfully disagree, when sending the signal coming from tonex to my virtual amps for capturing, theyre in the yellow of my meters, and pretty consistently too. They are actually a way hotter signal. This was actually the first thing I noticed when using ToneX for the first time. I asked myself "okay with everything set at 0 (in trim on the app, lowest on the interface preamp) it feels and sounds weird, but using the (obviously way hotter) built in DI tracks on ToneX, it sounds "normal." So thats where I started my investigation and testing
THANK YOU! 😂 I’ve been waiting for somebody to address this as an Apollo user! I started using a DI into my Apollo because A. I felt the guitar sims sounded a touch better in the high frequencies, and B. My JB loaded strat clips with the Apollo Hi-Z input set as low as possible (10 dB, which is just stupid btw). So my question in use of a DI for the clipping guitar, is what is considered coming in “neutral”? I would think there should be some decibel target on the Apollo meter. I’ve been targeting -6, but that sounds like, as you pointed out, I’m gaining the Apollo when I should be gaining ToneX. Also, interestingly, the Apollo manual says to gain up the input “until the input meter for the channel approaches maximum but does not reach the red clip LED”. I would love some additional thoughts and discussion on this.
Thats a hell of a lot of level from a guitar using a PAF style pickup! On my Hi-Z, i do keep it at its lowest because Im treating Apollo and Tonex the same way I would an amp. Unless the "amp" has an input gain trim, im leaving it alone because thats how it would be in the real world. Regarding what it says in the Apollo manual, thats the response I address in my video and reference in the JS video. It doesnt make sense. Why make every guitar the same level? Also technically there is a target. In the JS video, he goes through the Helix Native manual that has an answer regarding proper db range at instrument level, would be worth checking out.
@@XergioRMusic So my followup questions would be: 1. Then using the JB-loaded Strat into the Hi-Z of my Apollo x4, set with the input gain all the way down (10dB), it clips -- what would be your advice here? I'm stumped aside from using a DI. 2. If using a DI (again, my current workaround for the JB output issue), would good practice be to set the gain input so the meter reads -12 dB for the JB (a very hot pickup), as indicated with the Helix Native manual, then just not adjust with other guitars? So a low-output pickup *should* read in around or slightly above -36 dB on the Apollo input meter? 3. As a final takeaway, aside from my JB issue, sounds like leaving the Apollo Hi-Z gain trim at 10dB (no additional gain, knob as low as possible), setting ToneX input gain in the 12-15 range will provide the best results across almost all guitars, allowing for the individual characteristics to be best represented? Again, really appreciate your help with all of this! I've been struggling to get answers to these questions.
Tried another experiment -- used my Gibson ES339 into the Hi-Z and I meter regularly at about -3 in Apollo. Had to turn down the ToneX input to 2.7 to avoid constant clipping.
Reading through your posts, its kind of difficult to visualize exactly what your signal chain is electrically, but I noticed you didn't mention certain things that may be relevant to your issue. I can't guarantee what I'm about to say will help, but it might. However, even if my post doesn't fix the issue, this information is good to know and can help in the future, so its worth mentioning. With regards to DI boxes, their main purpose is to convert a single ended signal to balanced. The 2 modes of operation are not compatible. The signal coming out of your guitar is single ended. And all that means is its a standard audio signal. For a SE signal, you need a 2 conductor cable and connector. RCA cables, TS cables (like the one you plug into your guitar, BNC, etc...) A balanced connection needs a three conductor cable and connector like XLR, TRS, etc. The 3rd conductor in a balanced connection is signal, or hot (+). In order to make the connection work with SE equipment, something has to be done. A DI box takes your 2 conductor SE signal and convers it into a 3 conductor balanced signal. When converting to balanced, you naturally end up with an additional 4-6db signal strength. That can be related to your problem. For a guitar a DI box with also be used to set impedance to a level that will let it work with other components. You only need to set impedance one time. If a DI box or audio interface takes care of if impedance, you now have a line level signal. You don't need to do it again, like on a mixing board, for example. Also, in many situations, you don't need a DI box if you're components have an option to switch between SE and balanced. You still need to be very careful because what often happens is RCA to XLR adaptors or cables sometimes take the extra signal pin on a balanced connection and shunt it to the ground pin. If one of your components is still putting out a balance signal for some reason, you get a short circuit the second you plug the cable in and run power through. One thing I need to make clear is this is a very big topic, and I'm just scratching the surface. There's no possible way I can go over all the details on any of these issues. Sometimes there's an exception, or work around, or some other thing that may contradict what I'm saying. I'm sure you already know this, but if your audio interface/mixer has a phantom power option, never use it. Its only for mics and nothing else. Gain vs volume. Gain controls are always placed on the input of a component and volume controls are always on the output of a component. Only a gain control can overdrive, damage or alter the signal in any way. A volume control can't do anything to the signal. It just attenuates. When you have an problem like what's in this video and your comments, the first thing you need to do is examine your entire signal chain and make absolutely sure you know which ones are gain controls, and which ones are volume. Its not always easy to tell, but it can't be overlooked. When dialing in your gear, gain staging is the most important thing to get right. Set your gain controls to whatever they need to be to make your system work properly, but no more. After that, use volume controls only. One thing that sometimes comes up is red lining. You don't want to redline any of your gain controls. I'm sure everyone hear already knows that. However, when it comes to volume, red line all you want. You can have solid red bars and it makes no difference whatsoever. And the reason for that was stated above. A volume control can't do any damage to the signal. If you have to make a choice between re-adjusting your gain staging in order to fix volume control redlining, don't do it. Its always nice to have no red lining, but its not worth compromising your gain to do it. Anyway, I hope this helps. If you can't use this info now, you'll definitely use it in the future.
So stupid of IK Multimedia. How many have been disappointed when testing. I was until I found out that I had to set up input level + 13 dB. Now the the feel is 100 % similar to my Tone King amp.
@@michaelelwert4184 Input gain on the Tonex pedal. The software works fine but there I use a iRig HD which have lights and control for input gain. Impossible to understand why they have it on their iRig and not a physical input gain control on their Tonex pedal.
@@michaelelwert4184 if you use the upper left knob on ToneX you can set input gain on global settings. If it’s too low when you strike a chord the display says “low”. It says “ok” when the input gain is set alright.
I checked it out and so far its okay. Its def in very rough shape but its a great thing for those who want to try out profiling at home and given that its literally one guy developing it, its incredibly ambitious and very impressive. The edge IK has is the resources for things like ToneNet and ToneX pedal and using ToneX within AT5
Okay, so that i understand it correctly, id appreciated xour confirmation: You basically say the best way to go is to first create any given capture at boosting the guitar signal in the interface by 12-15 dB, to reach the peak level IK wants to see, then after creating the capture playing the HI-Z input back to 0, and to theb voost withij the ToneX plugin by 12dB to restore the levels IK wants to see? My described methodology of course only works, if the Modeler section of ToneX does not recognize the Input Gain set - if it actually would, then best way to go is to keep the HI-Z input to 0 and boost 12 dB within ToneX? Would appreciate clarification on this! :-)
why arent you setting your input levels on each preset, the way the unit is made to do? EDIT: So as a newer user to this product i had to come back and clarify my mistake. So the input trim is a global setting which would not help you at all in this case, since it would change the levels all across the board. Sorry.
I dont own the pedal, but id imagine it works similarly. Im talking about the global input trim on ToneX Max and on Amplitube 5. In order for the models to work "correctly" at the level theyre designed to, it needs a hotter input signal
Have you seen Sadites' latest video on this matter? He makes a point in that ToneX doesn't have a proper meter th-cam.com/video/3FaQM5mIHFQ/w-d-xo.html
Ditto here , Amplitube 5.5.4 w/ Axe I/O crapped out after 5 days , the tones sound awful now. It flakes out every 2 days on three different systems and has ZERO manufacture support except email that returns a scripted answer 3-5 business days after you send in your support ticket. It is a half baked product and I regret every buying it.
Excellent video, I learned a lot! I’ve been struggling with input levels lately and this brings a lot of clarity
Glad it was helpful!
I hear it clear as day. i KNEW there was somethin weird about Amplitube but i could never figure it out. But yeah, the signal just sounds dead. Wild!
There are some other plugins lacking input gain like Nembrini or Mercuriall. This problem is not understood by people who’ve never played a real amp. For instance if you own a Rectifier and set the gain at 5 it will sound and react to playing in a specific way. Then, connect the same guitar to your audio interface, set the gain on Amplitube’s Rectifier to 5 (I’m talking about the Rectifier approved by Mesa) and you’ll see….there’s a huge difference. That’s because the plugin is not calibrated correctly when they made it.
Jason, can you share how you get that "squeal" after the initial tone? It's awesome. Been playing since I was 11- And that was in 1961
Hi and thank you so much for this video. Do you know if with the latest version of Amplitube (5 MAX V2) they resolved this thing?
Damn I need to get this kind of tone 😮
I'm currently trying out ToneX and I cannot believe how godawful it sounds. You might as well shove ice picks in my ears. It's not just the low gain part, but the sound of the JCM800 that comes up by default is insanely bad. I may be having a problem with my interface, I don't know. I've been trying to switch to plugins and it has been a real struggle. Actually I can't get a hardware modeler to sound right, either. Regular amps sound great but they are too loud for my current situation.
Check if you have two cabs/IR on the same amp! I've seen that in Amplitube 5, when people bring ToneX presets, they have to turn off Amplitube's cab in that application, because there's already one cab/IR set included in the ToneX preset. Just make sure that it isn't the case with the modeler and preset that you're using.
@@Juicexlx There was something wrong with my interface but I've gotten a new one since then. The default Marshalls that come up in Tonex are still awful to my ears, but if I use a different plugin for IRs they sound fine.
When Jason says “This does not matter” it’s really incorrect and bad advice.
You basically had it figured out at the end - if you want ToneX to sound accurate, you can set your DI to the level ToneX is asking to see (the one Jason says doesn’t matter). This doesn’t affect the capture, but it does allow you to check that it sounds correct at IK’s calibration. The problem is, it’s a much louder signal than most people track DI’s with. So once you know how much you have to boost by, you’re better off lowering your input level again, and using the gain slider in the plugin to boost back up.
Most amp sim plugins need quite a loud signal internally, but they USUALLY boost behind the scenes to get to their level. For some reason IK doesn’t have this internal boost, and instead requires the user to boost. As far as I can tell, Softube are like this too (try their amp sims boosted by 12-15dB).
The main issue is all A/D converters use a different dBU>dBFS calibration, so the same guitar signal on one interface could give a higher or lower signal than another. Software has no idea what interface you have. Most amp plugins these days have looked at the most commonly used interfaces and set their levels so they work for these. Some haven’t, and require manual adjustments to respond properly.
Well done for taking the time to figure this out, it’s so important to get a correct response! You’re on the right track here - I linked you a thread on facebook that should help figure things more.
Im sure Jason had his reasons. I understand what he means in terms of the capture. It doesnt matter in terms of the final tone, the main difference was just the hiss. Granted something I edited out of the video was comparing the hiss to the original plugin, and when doing non volume compensated, it matched the way how the amp i was capturing was reacting, noise and all so in a way, it doesnt matter.
Yeah I def went down the rabbit hole on a lot of forums regarding interface levels and A/D conversion. I felt like that was beyond the scope of this video and just wanted to provide a quick and concise answer. Thanks for your points and discussion!
@@XergioRMusic The converter reference level thing is why everyone has to compensate their input by different amounts to get the same response from HW. This also goes for any analog modelled plugin - they will have modelled it at a particular dBFS->dBU level, and sometimes they’ll let you adjust this so you can match it to your own HW and converters.
Jason has his DI set quieter to avoid clipping, but when he makes a capture, the reamp signal isn’t attenuated. So the signal is reamped 15dB too hot, but because he has things calibrated for a lower level, the end result sounds OK. IMO the results would sound even better if he followed IK’s suggested levels a the ML training has been designed and optimised for those.
@@eds4754 I see what you're saying, but In this video though he tried making the capture with and without increasing his input and the resulting capture sounds the same, so still confusing. Even if if did produce different capture sounds, you still then have to go back and increase your ToneX input level to +15 for it to sound correct, which is still very odd (if that was normal, the default should be +15 not 0 in the software)
Damn. I gave up on Tone X because of the lack of gain in the profiles. I knew something was off but I couldn’t figure it out. Kudos and thanks for making this video. I really appreciate it!
I gave up on it, as well. Every tone I tried was just awful. I sold it to a friend after a few days.
Same for me but with amplitube. Every single amp sounds weak, thin and just .. weird. But it seems to work good for a lot of people so I think it is just that Amplitube and Tonex is very picky when it comes to which instrument input you use. For example I use Fireface UCX, their instrument input has 470KOhm input impedance (the recommendation for many amp sims is 1MOhm). The other amp sims seems to cope find with it but Amplitube don't.
If I for example use the rockerverb amp with gain at 5 in STL Amphub and tries to match it in Amplitube 5, in Amplitube 5 I have to turn the input into SEVERE clipping before it even come close to that of the same amp in Amphub. I mean SEVERE clipping. And this is with amp gain at 5, so I'm not trying to achive something extreme gain-wise.
I think a good trick for tonex is using the audio demo on the plugin and bypassing amp. that way you can see the input levels on your DAW meters
I have 15 guitars that all sound like crap going though Amplitube. And I mean very bad sounding. I stumbled across another YT video, where the person was using Neural DSP and having the same issue with gain. He mentioned he was using a Presonus Studio 1824c, and he started using a different interface to use the Neural DSP plugin. I too, am using a 1824c. But I also have a cheap (about $100) Behringer Ultragain Pro-8 Digital (Model ADA8000) running through my Presonus using ADAT, for 8 more mic inputs. I had never thought about plugging my guitar into the cheap Behringer interface, to see if Amplitube sounded correct. Well guess what.. It did! I was about ready to give up on Amplitube, but holy crap does it sound good now. Maybe this might help someone else, using a Presonus interface, that can't get Amplitube to sound right. Cheers!
I don’t know man, your input level in amplitube is too low. I usually calibrate to -18rms before amplitube. And green indicator matches the knob in amplitube. Your green indicator is completely at the bottom. That’s why you need to boost the amplitube input knob. Green indicator must match the knob like in everything else.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this. I've just been messing with Tonex for a few days now and I found out something. Maybe someone else has noticed, but it has to do with using just a pedal in Tonex software before the native amp sim in Logic that I use. I could use Amplitube and get the same results, but Tonex by itself seems to be much lighter on the processor. I don't have the pedal just the software. I've found that input in many cases needs to be boosted as you say for it to sound right, but the output of the Tonex plugin needs to be decreased the same number of dbs. The audio going out of the plugin is too hot if your going into a different amp sim. Turning the plugin off should be the same as disengaging the pedal with the plugin still active. If you don't decrease the output it sounds like a clean boost if the just the pedal, and not the plugin is turned off. Does that make sense?
Not that it's ok, but just plug the guitar in a DI box and the DI box in the sound interface and be done with it. The instrument level will be converted to line level and IK stuff will work ok. You should not have to do it but it's not like there is no solution until IK fixes this.
Just watched Gus G’s rig rundown and he’s using it live right now. That’s good enough for me
So set my interface (mine is an AudioBox iTwo) to zero and increase the gain on the input slider to +10-15?
Truly disgusting behaviour by these devs - ZERO input level standardisation/help for the user on this critical aspect. It's currently a hot topic with lots of discussion...and lots and lots of people complaining of sh#t sounding plugins. S-Gear is the same in that it needs significant input gain.
Pro tip: the best way to demonstrate the issue you experienced here is to use a clean patch. That way, if the input/gain was too low/high we'd all instantly hear. Don't use a distorted patch, for obvious reasons.
I think IK padded the input gain by -12/-15dB because, as far as I know, it's a common practice among amateur (and not only) guitarists to set the preamp gain of their audio interface just below the clipping limit, which, as you've noticed, is around -12/-15dB. The idea of setting the preamp of their audio interface to zero might be counterintuitive for many, and not everyone is aware that it's better to work with plugins this way.
I don’t see an issue that’s what a mouse is for! Set up your capture to your liking and save!
THU has a calibration meter that asks you to raise the input level too, and then it has switch to raise the level between low/high output pickups, so you get the extra boost from a humbucker for example. So it is not only IK Multimedia. Jason has video where he says that he gets the right tones keeping a Clarett input to 0 (or +1db), but for me (with the same interface) it is not the case, I need to bump the input, and then with that minimum level, I can switch guitars and get different input levels as expected with a real amp. Checking real amps vs Amplitube 5, I can get AT5 to react like the real amp only when I have the right amount of input gain. The amount of gain really depends on your interface, not all interfaces will provide the same gain at 0 preamp level in the instrument input.
Hello, friend! Just turn on, for example, the TSE 808 in front of any amplifier emulator and the sound will be much better and richer 👍
Someday, people will realize they will get mutch better sound with pedals before the soundcard input to a vst amp. Better yet, with some sort of high voltage tubes in the signal path. The latter is night and day.
Thanks for that video ! Strangely, I don't have this issue, maybe it's because I'm using ToneX with IK multimedia's AXE IO ? I never had to touch the input gain. And, on my pedal, I had to put the input trim at -4 or -5, for the captures to sound exactly the same than with AXE IO/the computer app
I think this depends very much on your audio interface, your pickups/guitar output level and the particular preset on AT5 (or ToneX). Different AT5 amp models and presets are made by different people so you may need to adjust slightly. For example, I have my guitar volume on max (pickup selector is at HH) and my Focusrite Scarlett input gain knob exactly in the middle, its indicator is showing green/orange (input is set to Instrument). In AT5 I select the first clean amp, '57 Champ with its cab and I set the input volume at 0.0db and output also at 0.0db. The input and output meters in AT5 stay green, no red clipping, they go to about 80-90%. The corresponding DAW channel is set to 0, meter shows level of -3 to 0db (depending on how hard I hit the strings). Sounds good to me, why would I want to change anything? If I change to the Dual Rectifier (default setting) I get the AT5 output clipping indicator going red, so to avoid this I have to back the AT5 output level to -2db. That's it, my DAW meter goes again up to 0db. Sounds good to me.
This makes sense, and I noticed this when making NAM profiles of my amps, and I needed to add a good amount of gain on the amp before modeling it so the model came out accurate to what I wanted without changing the input gain. It seems like calibrating this shouldn't be a super difficult task.
When you say "dry", it feels like when you're through a real amp and you turn down your gtr volume knob (with passive pickups at least) to a certain threshold where notes don't sustain long, the signal feels (and is) weak. I first experienced this through Neural DSP yesterday and I was "Hm, I'll turn the gate down", "oh, I'll turn it off", and it still had that weak and "die out quick" notes (I had to do long sustains and they lasted like 3 seconds before cutting, with LOTS of gain). I'll def' try that out, I also use Amplitube to will keep that in mind, thanks A LOT!
Thanks, I knew there was something missing, now I get it, Ik multimedia should tell this right away when you buy amplitube
This is 100% correct. Almost all Tonex captures sound lifeless and/or underpowered, until you turn up the input gain in the software, and find a sweet spot. The amount of input gain necessary, will vary from capture to capture, but it improves the sound and character of an amp tremendously.
I was wondering what the issue was. I thought it was due to my input level during capturing though I’ve checked it through DAW and by ear…
setting it to 15 db is dumb.
Thanks a lot! But can you please make a short list of your conclusions and what to do about it as user of these plug ins? You told a lot, but my English is not sufficient to hold on to the thread of the story….🙏🙏
Can you provide a link back to Jason's video... I can't find it (there are a lot!)
Jason talks a lot.
I’m going to check this out. I’ve noticed that a lot of the drive and high gain models in TONEX sound kind of weird “out of the box” (to me at least). Noodling with the input gain on the pedal has helped, but I’ll try this in the software, and see how well it “travels” into the pedal. Thanks for your insights!
Def check out the Jason Sadites video called "The most important parameter on ToneX Pedal" or something. He talks more about this issue but i think you have to see if the issue is the same (12-15 extra gain) on the Input trim of the pedal.
@@XergioRMusic yeah, I actually saw that first, and it did help.
The +12 in the program a separate issue to the gain reduction on the pedal.
Things are definitely sounding more natural and considerably less “fizzy” on the drive / hi-gain tones.
I tend to clip on all amp sims using a itrack solo focusrite and a lp 50’s interface set at lowest valume possible zero and still get signal 😅 Im so lost with all this virtual amp world
Same here. I can only boost the input on most A5 amp models by 0-8db and it still peaks.
Is the clipping audible? The one thing you want to make sure of, is knowing what controls in your signal chain are volume and which ones are gain. You have to know for certain. You can only damage, distort, overdrive, etc.., the signal with too much gain. Too much volume can't effect the signal at all. As long as your gain is set properly (use as much as you need in order for everything to work as intended, but no more), you can use volume controls without worrying about clipping the signal or redlining. You won't harm the signal as long as you're adjusting volume, not gain. Without knowing more about your signal chain, something like this can be the issue. That's why its so important to know what each control does.
I know I don't have to tell you this, but if your audio interface has phantom power, never use it for anything other than a mic.
I've experienced the same thing. I noticed how low the input signal indicator by the input slider was and could feel that is was getting hit with weak signal (lack input causing lack of amp compression). Turning the input up in the presets did the trick. Feels and sounds better.
I have realized the same thing. It feels like the tonex has a high gain sound but does not feel like it by default. It makes it feel fake and hard to play. The pedal does not seem to have this problem versus the software
*Look my man, all you have to do is put an active circuit like a CLEAN BOOSTER PEDAL or even a REAL WAH PEDAL...!!!!! All I have between my guitar and my RME INTERFACE is a REAL DUNLOP WAH with a 9volt battery!!!!! This makes EVERYTHING CHANGE! .....Just having it there it tightens up the bottom and rounds the midrange and making it sound IDENTICAL to a real real amp.. The sold feel UMF and sound!!!....Amplitube 5 is the truth! I AM NOT EVEN USING A Hi-z...And if i need to address tone I just put an GRAPHIC EQ first in the chain on AMPLITUBE AND BOOM!*
this is confusing man, could you just go straight to the point and summarize the process?
When in amplitube or tone x turn up the input on the amp you are using to +13db and it will sound better
In a nutshell ... where should all levels ???
I think the best explanation you can find is in STL Ignite's Emissary plugin user manual. Emissary was one of the first plugins, as far as I remember, to feature an input level adjustment; this is explained in the user manual:
«Once your signal is converted to digital, it will be represented as a series of numbers that
you can see as voltage values. [Here I disagree: they are just numbers, relative to the maximum resolution of the converters] These voltages [numbers!] can have a maximum and minimum value of
1.0 and -1.0 respectively. Supposing your input signal is peaking at its higher possible value
right before the clipping threshold of the converter, it will be represented as 1.0 inside your
host and Emissary will react to it like if you're sending a 1.0V signal to its input stage.
Why is it so important to know these details? Because if your guitar pickup has a maximum
output voltage higher than 1V (or 2V peak-to-peak), like many modern active pickups have,
you'll need to adjust the input signal that's being sent to Emissary. That's where the Input
Level control comes into play. You need to tweak it to *compensate the voltage
scaling/normalization made by your AD converter*.
«The Input level control applies a scaling factor to the input signal. For example, if your pickup
has a maximum output of 1.5V (so 3V peak-to- peak), you'll need to set the control at 1.5x.
By doing this, your input will be multiplied by 1.5, so Emissary will not be fed with a 1.0V
maximum signal, instead, it'll get a 1.0V x 1.5 = 1.5V maximum signal, which is the correct
value to match your pickup specifications.»
Today, given the good quality of A/D converters, you could just set the input gain of your card as if you had a hot pickup, so that weaker pickups will generate lower signals (read: lower *numbers* in the digital input stream) without this having negative effect on the S/R ratio. This way you'll be good to go with a wide range of guitars and the model will always react according to the "level" of the input signal without the need to set the analog gain higher for weaker guitars *then* lowering the level with a digital trim. That's basically what Jason is suggesting; I agree with him when he disagrees on IK suggesting to set the input trim for each guitar, because this way you would lose the differences between guitars, but I disagree with his -3dB settings for the pedal: I personally use +4.5dB.
I have TONEX with my guitar going straight to TONEX and out to studio monitors. Global input at 0 and I have no issue at all with my Suhr guitars and my PRS with JB pickup on the bridge.
Im a complete novice in regards to audio equipment and software. However, I noticed that when you set your tonex pedal to serve as an interface, the presets in library sound weired. However, when you use tone models from tonex software or you switch the nonex pedal to "live" the same tones sound almost identical and pretty awesome.
It is a huge advantage to have the extra headroom in the input because I can use the drive, preamp, or fuzz that I want to going into it. I would never consider buying an amp profiler that was not designed to accept a boosted signal and react like an amp does (pushed when you boost it, and tame when you don't) ToneX is more of an old school mentality. It doesnt try to be some super pristine solution, its a quick and dirty cheap solution to take your rigs in the go. It is not designed to be a pristine perfect recording solution for the "perfect" mix. Who cares about that anyway 😂 forget sounding perfect, life is short
Amplitube 5 is great but yes a lot of amps are lacking. To compensate you have to compress, saturate and post process the hell out of them to get that tone 😂
Hey man, you are totally right, I've got Guitar Rig, Amplitube and Bias FX and when I am just blowing into the amp on Amplitube 5 there is seriously gain lacking. When I am on Bias FX my Input Gain is on half and the sound is already distorted as hell on metal amps. So this is a real mistake by Amplitube and should be fixed in the next version
At 8:20 what i hear is that you're using a specific room for the modeling gear of tonex and the tonex model already comes in a dry room or space.
I've came across the same problem, did the same test and got the same conclusion! Nice to know that I'm not alone, because everytime I write about this or other problem to IK's support they simply don't care that much, they always find some excuse instead to really check it and test it by their selves.. They should give more attention to all users not only to people on media channels 😅 but Jason has reason by setting the gain in the interface low, for me works the best with a low input gain from my interface and crank the input in tonex software.
Cheers!
I'm so confused that in most videos, we are told to keep the input trim setting of the tonex pedal at 0db for humbucker guitars... But when I set it to 0db, I can't enjoy it at all... Isn't there a more or less correct setting for this pedal... dear friends, how do you adjust the imput trim setting? do you use ? What is your advice? Since I don't know how amplifiers actually sound, I don't understand what's right and what's wrong, and I'm unhappy... Thank you for the answers.
I have to state this clearly, I watch videos selling sound packages and it sounds amazing in the videos... When I download the free sample sound, it sounds like a fly buzzing... My guitar is Jackson SL1. If he tries a little more, he'll get bored.
I actually love tonex, J just really wonder why they do not fix this. Seems an easy fix
Man I thought I was either crazy or just lost my engineering touch when I was messing with this. I’ve been in tracking land for years lately and haven’t played in mixing and all this sort of stuff and this thing has been driving me crazy as I’m trying to get TONEX to replace my Amplitube sim software. Figured it would be a no brainer considering ITS THE SAME MAKER!? But I am not happy with the TONEX yet and the low level shit is a huge reason why
If this complain is so extended between Amplitube users, why IK multimedia is not doing anything to solve it? I can see really old forum threads about this matter around internet.
Does this have nothing to do with having the EQ in pre or post. I find it odd that the pedal's EQ is by default Post.
I knew something wasn’t right. I stopped using amplitube as it just will not allow the same feel as other software. I guess I’ll revisit it and crank my input +15 db 🤷
I lost you when you say that guitar plugins expect "guitar level". Plugins (and digital models on hardware pedals, too), don't receive analog signals, they receive streams of digital data. As far as I know, in the digital domain, there's no "guitar level", in the same way as there is no "mic level".
You have it wrong, and its a common mistake. The industry does a very poor job of explaining certain things. A guitar puts out a single ended analog signal. Its not line level just like the signal from a mic and a turntable. They all need to be plugged into analog inputs that are designed to handle their particular signal. If you have something like a Tonex pedal or one, it has a guitar level analog input for a guitar. Once inside, the signal gets converted to digital, processed, and then converted back to analog so the signal can be sent next component, probably an amp. Also, any signal that runs through a copper wire is analog, even a digital signal. You can't send 1's and 0's through a piece of copper wire.
Now, lets say you are using an audio interface instead of a Tonex pedal. Most of them have a guitar level input built in. The audio interface applies the correct gain and impedance needed for a guitar. The signal leaving the audio interface is treated as line level, analog or digital, depending on what you're doing. The uniqueness of the guitar signal has already ben dealt with in the audio interface. What you don't want is to have the Tonex plug in do the same thing twice. The plug in assumes a guitar signal by default. You need to change the input to line level or it will apply a lot more gain than you need.
lol, at least I can still hear gain and harmonics from your clip, my sounds like playing an Aluminium acoustic guitar on a broker speaker with both software. Not to mention the latency.
Read somewhere you have to put cabinet off if reamp Tonex, right?
You are say good words, i use a reamp box for tone capturing in max volume and is good, but input level on tonex need +6-8db
I wondered why I was at the sweet spot input level but it felt like I was struggling to get output without really hitting the strings hard. Boosting the input suddenly made it easy to play like it should be
I just ordered Tonex pedal and am going use it in the effects loop of my Helix Lt, do I need to worry about this issue?
Nope, just make sure it doesnt clip with the trim in the configuration mode and you'll be ok
you’re absolutely right here man, I’ve also noticed it. Also, there is a gain discrepancy between Tonex and AT5. Around 1.5dB difference between the two. Tonex sounds louder snd more alive than tonex within At5.The thing is it won’t sound the same regardless of any gain compensation. It is not as noticeable with full captures but DI captures using custom IRs sound lame in AT5.
yeah the gain staging in amplitube with tonex is weird. You basically can't make a clean boost because tonex doesn't seem to normalise to rms but the peak instead so more dynamic captures are quieter and you need a slight input gain increase to match.
It loses it's natural sustain and the gate kills it further and adds digital artifacts
Qq- would a boost pedal solve this problem? Transparent boost
I've adjusted gain +10db and it sound OK, but the clipping is there. i've adjusted my focusrite to max without yellow (clipping diod). Question is how to get rid of the clipping while saving the sound
set interface to zero so it's preamps are doing what they're supposed to, then gain it up as shown here. The videos this is responding to (I think it's the one THAT video was responding to) has a link to a spreadsheet on how much you need to increase gain for different amp sims.
Many of us have been doing what you've been doing by backing the interface back from clipping just enough, but it's not necessary or appropriate as it turns out - according to the videos and discussions they spawn. I don't claim to know - I only know amplitude feels like a dry turd the way I've been using it. Off to try +15 and see if it helps.
Did they fix it with recent updates?
This should be the first search result for amplitude low gain. Thanks!
Hey man! So I recently got tonex software and bought a tone pack. In videos it sounded amazing but on my focusrite solo it sounds so lackluster. Basically no gain/sustain. Do you know what issue I’m running into? Can’t figure it out
Did you figure it out?
@@davidthomas9960 I did not, I just gave up because I could not find out why it sounded so bad. My gear sounds great in any other plug-in but this one. And I tried uninstalling and reinstalling but still nothing.
You know I've been doing that even though I didn't see this. I was just thinking that atleast the sound and feel is different when the signal is healthy by using that slider
Right? I knew something was off and given that I wasnt the only one having the problem, I knew something was up
I can definitely tell I have amplitude 5 it's like something is lacking or missing right?
Yeah, amplitube needs more gain too just like tonex, which also doesnt make sense
I hear it. Its a subtle change but it makes a huge difference
Very interesting info - and you’ve done a thorough job; seems like a valid issue.
Thanks for sharing!!
Glad it was helpful!
Kuassa is like this too in my experience
Yep, been using analog boost pedal, and adding input
How do you fix this in the Tonex pedal? Is it the trim input?
Yes! Jason Sadites made an excellent video regarding this! Def give it a check
What I found weird on lots of tone models is that the DI tracks included on tonex to test the tone models , sound louder, but not always hotter. So I don't think is only a matter of input levels.
I respectfully disagree, when sending the signal coming from tonex to my virtual amps for capturing, theyre in the yellow of my meters, and pretty consistently too. They are actually a way hotter signal. This was actually the first thing I noticed when using ToneX for the first time. I asked myself "okay with everything set at 0 (in trim on the app, lowest on the interface preamp) it feels and sounds weird, but using the (obviously way hotter) built in DI tracks on ToneX, it sounds "normal." So thats where I started my investigation and testing
Thank you for this!
THANK YOU! 😂 I’ve been waiting for somebody to address this as an Apollo user! I started using a DI into my Apollo because A. I felt the guitar sims sounded a touch better in the high frequencies, and B. My JB loaded strat clips with the Apollo Hi-Z input set as low as possible (10 dB, which is just stupid btw). So my question in use of a DI for the clipping guitar, is what is considered coming in “neutral”? I would think there should be some decibel target on the Apollo meter. I’ve been targeting -6, but that sounds like, as you pointed out, I’m gaining the Apollo when I should be gaining ToneX.
Also, interestingly, the Apollo manual says to gain up the input “until the input meter for the channel approaches maximum but does not reach the red clip LED”.
I would love some additional thoughts and discussion on this.
Thats a hell of a lot of level from a guitar using a PAF style pickup! On my Hi-Z, i do keep it at its lowest because Im treating Apollo and Tonex the same way I would an amp. Unless the "amp" has an input gain trim, im leaving it alone because thats how it would be in the real world.
Regarding what it says in the Apollo manual, thats the response I address in my video and reference in the JS video. It doesnt make sense. Why make every guitar the same level? Also technically there is a target. In the JS video, he goes through the Helix Native manual that has an answer regarding proper db range at instrument level, would be worth checking out.
@@XergioRMusic So my followup questions would be:
1. Then using the JB-loaded Strat into the Hi-Z of my Apollo x4, set with the input gain all the way down (10dB), it clips -- what would be your advice here? I'm stumped aside from using a DI.
2. If using a DI (again, my current workaround for the JB output issue), would good practice be to set the gain input so the meter reads -12 dB for the JB (a very hot pickup), as indicated with the Helix Native manual, then just not adjust with other guitars? So a low-output pickup *should* read in around or slightly above -36 dB on the Apollo input meter?
3. As a final takeaway, aside from my JB issue, sounds like leaving the Apollo Hi-Z gain trim at 10dB (no additional gain, knob as low as possible), setting ToneX input gain in the 12-15 range will provide the best results across almost all guitars, allowing for the individual characteristics to be best represented?
Again, really appreciate your help with all of this! I've been struggling to get answers to these questions.
Tried another experiment -- used my Gibson ES339 into the Hi-Z and I meter regularly at about -3 in Apollo. Had to turn down the ToneX input to 2.7 to avoid constant clipping.
Reading through your posts, its kind of difficult to visualize exactly what your signal chain is electrically, but I noticed you didn't mention certain things that may be relevant to your issue. I can't guarantee what I'm about to say will help, but it might. However, even if my post doesn't fix the issue, this information is good to know and can help in the future, so its worth mentioning.
With regards to DI boxes, their main purpose is to convert a single ended signal to balanced. The 2 modes of operation are not compatible. The signal coming out of your guitar is single ended. And all that means is its a standard audio signal. For a SE signal, you need a 2 conductor cable and connector. RCA cables, TS cables (like the one you plug into your guitar, BNC, etc...) A balanced connection needs a three conductor cable and connector like XLR, TRS, etc. The 3rd conductor in a balanced connection is signal, or hot (+). In order to make the connection work with SE equipment, something has to be done. A DI box takes your 2 conductor SE signal and convers it into a 3 conductor balanced signal. When converting to balanced, you naturally end up with an additional 4-6db signal strength. That can be related to your problem. For a guitar a DI box with also be used to set impedance to a level that will let it work with other components. You only need to set impedance one time. If a DI box or audio interface takes care of if impedance, you now have a line level signal. You don't need to do it again, like on a mixing board, for example. Also, in many situations, you don't need a DI box if you're components have an option to switch between SE and balanced. You still need to be very careful because what often happens is RCA to XLR adaptors or cables sometimes take the extra signal pin on a balanced connection and shunt it to the ground pin. If one of your components is still putting out a balance signal for some reason, you get a short circuit the second you plug the cable in and run power through. One thing I need to make clear is this is a very big topic, and I'm just scratching the surface. There's no possible way I can go over all the details on any of these issues. Sometimes there's an exception, or work around, or some other thing that may contradict what I'm saying.
I'm sure you already know this, but if your audio interface/mixer has a phantom power option, never use it. Its only for mics and nothing else.
Gain vs volume. Gain controls are always placed on the input of a component and volume controls are always on the output of a component. Only a gain control can overdrive, damage or alter the signal in any way. A volume control can't do anything to the signal. It just attenuates. When you have an problem like what's in this video and your comments, the first thing you need to do is examine your entire signal chain and make absolutely sure you know which ones are gain controls, and which ones are volume. Its not always easy to tell, but it can't be overlooked. When dialing in your gear, gain staging is the most important thing to get right. Set your gain controls to whatever they need to be to make your system work properly, but no more. After that, use volume controls only. One thing that sometimes comes up is red lining. You don't want to redline any of your gain controls. I'm sure everyone hear already knows that. However, when it comes to volume, red line all you want. You can have solid red bars and it makes no difference whatsoever. And the reason for that was stated above. A volume control can't do any damage to the signal. If you have to make a choice between re-adjusting your gain staging in order to fix volume control redlining, don't do it. Its always nice to have no red lining, but its not worth compromising your gain to do it.
Anyway, I hope this helps. If you can't use this info now, you'll definitely use it in the future.
So stupid of IK Multimedia. How many have been disappointed when testing. I was until I found out that I had to set up input level + 13 dB. Now the the feel is 100 % similar to my Tone King amp.
Do you mean by input level the audio interface or the input in amplitube?
@@michaelelwert4184 Input gain on the Tonex pedal. The software works fine but there I use a iRig HD which have lights and control for input gain. Impossible to understand why they have it on their iRig and not a physical input gain control on their Tonex pedal.
@@michaelelwert4184Sorry. I mean the global input gain.
@@MrBossei Noob question, but what is the global input gain in your gain staging setup? Where and how do you measure the +13 db :-) Thank you
@@michaelelwert4184 if you use the upper left knob on ToneX you can set input gain on global settings. If it’s too low when you strike a chord the display says “low”. It says “ok” when the input gain is set alright.
Nice Satya, man
Dude you should try NAM PLUGIN ❤
I checked it out and so far its okay. Its def in very rough shape but its a great thing for those who want to try out profiling at home and given that its literally one guy developing it, its incredibly ambitious and very impressive. The edge IK has is the resources for things like ToneNet and ToneX pedal and using ToneX within AT5
@@XergioRMusic what makes me use it more than ToneX is the sound. It’s better. Has the low end perfectly right and is never harsh! Thanks!
Okay, so that i understand it correctly, id appreciated xour confirmation:
You basically say the best way to go is to first create any given capture at boosting the guitar signal in the interface by 12-15 dB, to reach the peak level IK wants to see, then after creating the capture playing the HI-Z input back to 0, and to theb voost withij the ToneX plugin by 12dB to restore the levels IK wants to see?
My described methodology of course only works, if the Modeler section of ToneX does not recognize the Input Gain set - if it actually would, then best way to go is to keep the HI-Z input to 0 and boost 12 dB within ToneX?
Would appreciate clarification on this! :-)
why arent you setting your input levels on each preset, the way the unit is made to do? EDIT: So as a newer user to this product i had to come back and clarify my mistake. So the input trim is a global setting which would not help you at all in this case, since it would change the levels all across the board. Sorry.
I dont own the pedal, but id imagine it works similarly. Im talking about the global input trim on ToneX Max and on Amplitube 5. In order for the models to work "correctly" at the level theyre designed to, it needs a hotter input signal
@@XergioRMusic Yeah i just saw that and edited. If input gain were a "per preset" setting, this would work, but sadly its not, see above. Thanks!
I added a Studio One Mixtool plugin at my interface intrument max (13.8dB) before ToneX
Better levels and tone
Thoughts?
Is this just for the plug-in or the pedals too
just for the plugin. Will update when my pedal arrives
Have you seen Sadites' latest video on this matter? He makes a point in that ToneX doesn't have a proper meter th-cam.com/video/3FaQM5mIHFQ/w-d-xo.html
Ditto here , Amplitube 5.5.4 w/ Axe I/O crapped out after 5 days , the tones sound awful now. It flakes out every 2 days on three different systems and has ZERO manufacture support except email that returns a scripted answer 3-5 business days after you send in your support ticket. It is a half baked product and I regret every buying it.
Return it. you are covered by warranty.