This video was very informative. I wondered what that brace clip was all about. I wish in I’d known this before, it could of saved a lot of time and space when pushing wires into the gang-box. Thanks, much!
I don’t think this is applied correctly. To me, the box stills needs to be grounded with the EGC but the receptacle doesn’t because it will do that through the clip and the box. But the way you have it the receptacle is grounding the box. Which I don’t think is how this code section is written.
I've looked at it the opposite way, connecting the ground wire to the box and the device's ground coming through the clip. My reasoning is that the code always requires metal box to be grounded, whether there is a device associated with it or not. I don't come across many metal receptacle boxes, as most metallic boxes i see are only for splices. When I do use a metal box for a device, i pigtail both.
Just bond the box with your bonding conductor that is within the wire. I always leave it a bit longer rap it around the box scew then use the end to the device; works well if you have to splice additional wires through as well. Technically the metal screws could give you continuity even without the tightening it all the way, but continuity doesn't always repercent an adequate bond.
I have grounded the box with the incoming wire (aka: home run) for the past 25 years. The inspectors I work with want ALL equipment grounding conductors bonded and connected BEFORE drywall. Receptacles are not installed until trim. The Self Grounding Clip just adds another level of safety. Ground paths, even multiple ground paths, are your friend in this case.
White definitely code, I'd never do this because I've seen far too many loose receptacles that have been swapped out by homeowners or loosened over the years. If it's not firmly secured that whole box could become energized, and if a homeowner is swapping something out this grounding clip detail will likely be missed by them but they'll skip the jumper since that's what we did. Very informative on the code sections! Thanks as always! :)
But article 250.148 specifies that the box has to be grounded itself independent of a device so if you remove that device put the wires in the Box that box is still supposed to be grounded
This only applies when a metal box is used in a metal raceway to establish continuity with the service panel. The video shows a metal box NOT used with a metal raceway which defeats the purpose of the spring-type grounding strap of a self-grounding device.
@@stevenbernstein1978 not necessarily true. If you bond the EGC of the NM cable to the box, this feature saves you having to put a bonding jumper to the ground screw on the receptacle, but that is all
Many years ago an AHJ told me I had to put a ground screw and wire every box to the devise regardless of the brass tab. I had to rewire every box in the whole house. I always use a ground wire now. I don't think I would have tried to argue with him even if I knew about this video. Thanks for finding the exact code. At least I can support the argument.
Nice video...So I guess the clip is a spring of sorts that they're relying upon to maintain good contact between the box/yoke/equipment grounding conductor... Seems like the yoke alone would do the job if it was tight, no? All the same, if I have room in the box, I'm running a separate bonding conductor to the box in case my self-grounding clip is not so selfish one day. Jus' makes me feel better.
I think you are mistaken, the self grounding clip allows you to not use the green ground screw on the device. You must bond a metal box, 250.148. NEC 250.148(B) says when you remove that device from the box you do not interrupted grounding continuity. Your example is bonding the box from the device. You can ground the device (unless in a raised cover) with the ground clip, grounding the box with the grounded yoke of a device is a code violation. If you believe I am mistaken please site code as I make mistakes all the time.
I don't see how that clip does anything for the connection between box and device. The screw doesn't touch it, it's on the front of the yoke and doesn't touch the box. Personally, I'd rather go with Sparky's method and put the green wire (equipment grounding conductor) on the device. That's where you plug in things and have people contact. Once the wall is finished, nobody is coming in contact with the box. Even if the 'hot' wire somehow came into contact with the box, not that much risk to people compared to using a three-prong appliance/tool and not have a very strong/solid EGC.
@@mikefochtman7164 The threads of the screw create continuity between the device and the metal box. I always ground the device with a pig tail. If your using the raceway as your ground and no grounding conductor that self grounding device meets code. Unless it's a raised cover. I think the thought is if the ungrounded conductor comes off when you pull the raised cover away from the box it can contact the cover and not short to ground.
That tape around the receptacle creates more problems than it solves. Unless you like a black gooey mess, because the tape usually creeps off the device and and leaves a sticky mess in a trail wrapped around the wires.
I agree. Taping around receptacles and switches is a waste of time. Run the unused screws in if you're worried about them grounding out to the box. Stop using those small s/g boxes. For surface mount use 4/s boxes and raised covers. If it's a plastic box don't worry about it. I don't want that gooey crap on my plugs and switches either.
Thank you again for sharing your valuable electrical experience with the rest of us. I especially enjoy you taking the time to go over the NEC sections that have to do with what you are demonstrating/teaching about. Thank you!
What about running the spare screw connectors in rather than leaving them out before taping and installing the receptacle??? I was trained to always run the screws in...
I wonder if leaving the paper on the self-grounding clip would have still pass your grounding test. It would seem that the screw would have still provided the necessary grounding. Just curious.Thanks. Love your videos.
Maybe its just me, but why would you measure voltage from the hot to box instead of directly measuring continuity or resistance from the ground pin to box? Measuring voltage is indirectly measuring the bonding. Its possible (although highly unlikely) that an ungrounded box which is floating could still have 120v wrt hot. Measuring continuity or resistance would be a direct measure of what you are looking for - a low resistance path to ground. Since the meter has the capability I would always prefer the direct measurement to the indirect measurement - plus the continuity can be measured with the circuit deenergjzed if you so cared.
Exactly and if you're going to do it like that for demonstration purposes I would have left the paper tab in place first to show no voltage reading between the hot and the metal box and then removed it
Why the need to remove the paper washer..? There is a screw that touches the self grounding clip on the switch then runs through the metal nuts of the metal box, making the grounding bonding connection. The threads are making the metal to metal connection. There is often a little float between the box and the front of the drywall. The switch is often loosened to permit the switch to fight the cover plate and in those instances the paper washers only serve as keepers to keep the screws with the switches. Not trying to argue the code, I just don’t understand the logic.
Yes, if you read the Code, it says your must have direct metal-to-metal contact, OR a self-grounding clip. No need to remove the paper washer on self-grounding devices.
Ground should go to box that way it’s always protected just say you have a issue or a nick in the wire and needing to do testing then with the removal of receptacle it’s not grounded/bonded
The way you connected the ground wire to the receptacle means the receptacle is grounding the box. You should connect the ground wire to the box and then the box would ground the receptacle. That way the box won't lose continuity when the receptacle is removed. Regarding cover mounted receptacles, the self grounding clip is not necessary. No mention of it in NEC 250.146(A).
I'm confused. At the point you attach the bare copper grounding wire to the ground screw of the GFCI, isn't the outlet grounded at that point? And doesn't the self grounding clip become redundant? Shouldn't it be one or the other and not both?
The idea behind the clip is to bond the metal box. You absolutely want the ground wire attached to the receptacle for case grounding purposes. If the box is not grounded and the hot contacts the box, you are in for a surprise. At that point the hot is not interrupted by the GFCI comparator circuit because the current isn't flowing through the receptacle - if you touch the box it flows through you. I hope that helps.
Your method seems backwards to me. I always believed that the self grounding clip was provided to allow you to ground the ungrounded outlet by bonding it to a grounded box. What you did is use the self-grounding clip to bond the ungrounded box to a grounded outlet. Are both methods okay? Any code-fearing electricians want to weigh in on this? TIA.
Yeah, I wondered about this too, and it makes me not trust this as much. I can totally understand why Bill did it this way, but there is a risk that someone in the future may put in a standard receptacle without a grounding clip or understanding. There seem to be pros & cons to both methods, but it's more intuitive for a non-electrician to just check hot to ground and wrongly assume everything is fine when the reading checks out. If the box is directly grounded, then a pigtail or self grounding receptacle would evidently be needed. It's one simple extra step to ground both the box and the receptacle separately, and whilst this isn't what I would call cutting corners, it is not something I care to ever do. th-cam.com/video/bDFaVyvkQMc/w-d-xo.html I realise that this is mostly for demonstration, but it's questionable why this is a thing at all.
@@bobraible You're correct, the box is only grounded by contact from receptacle in which Romex ground wire is attached to. My mistake. Good catch. My home was built in 1950 with metal boxes. A ground wire was connected from the ground/neutral bus bar to the back of each box in a circuit to ground them. A 2 wire cable was run separately on each circuit for the hot and neutral connection. So the receptacle is grounded by the box instead of the box being grounded by the receptacle as in Bill's example.
Question - If you have a self-grounding receptacle and a metal box, are you allowed to tie your grounding jumper wire to a grounding screw on the metal box and then tie the other end of the jumper to the LINE cable grounding wire? Or do you have to always tie it to the self grounding receptacle's grounding screw? It seems like both ways would achieve the same result but I'm not the one writing the code.
Love your videos. I would have liked to see you do the voltage test on a receptacle without the special clip but with the cardboard washers removed......to see how much better the special clip performs.
That's all good ,this only works if the gfci is tightly secured to the box ,suppose the mounting screws loosen ,if this happens you lose your ground, this is why I prefer ground pigtails
If the box is recessed too far into the wall, and the yoke of the receptacle contacts the drywall and can not make sufficient contact with the box, do the supporting screws provide sufficient continuity?
I don't think so. Imagine not tightening the conductors on the breaker, or not torqueing the neutral or ground inside the panel. You'd have a loose connection.
So when you pull the receptacle out of the box it leaves the box ungrounded, leaving room for someone to get shocked if the hot happens to energize the box. I don't trust it. Also are you sure you did that right, maybe ground the box and allow the yoke to ground the receptacle?
When he removes the receptacle from the box without a bonding conductor the box will still be bonded to ground. The only thing that will lose its ground is if there are any devices plugged into it, while he removes it(not sure why anyone would do this)
@@DandyChigginz It’s not about trouble shooting equipment in a factory, (been doing that for thirty years!) it’s about changing out a live receptacle. OSHA will tell you not to work on energized circuits unless it absolutely can not be avoided.
I was thinking the same thing. The receptacle is grounded using the ground wire in the NM cable which is preferred since the ground wire ultimately returns (if not a home run return) to the service panel. Now it seems like it's double grounded. Perhaps two grounds are better than one?
Does the NEC require redundancy? In the event that the receptacle was NOT self-grounded, wouldn't the NM cable ground wire connection comply with code?
Its not necessarily redundancy. If you are using EMT conduit then you dont need the bonding jumper from the box to the green screw on the receptacle. With NM cables it doesnt make much sense.
@@stevenbernstein1978 The metal box must be bonded. In this scenario, the ground wire provides a ground to the receptacle, in turn, the the installed receptacle provides the required bond to the metal box via the self-bonding yoke. You have now effectively satisfied both requirements without having to installed a bonding wire jumper.
The voltmeter he used has an extremely high impedance in the order of 10 megohms. The minuscule amount of current (~ 12 uA) through the meter isn't enough for the GFCI to detect as a ground fault. A GFCI will trip at about 5 mA (or less) of ground fault current which is about 400 times more current than the meter will draw.
I would still use a wire to ground the box. If the outlet is removed for testing purposes the box isn't bonded to the grounding system of the house. So it could become live at mains voltage.
If its a metal box you have to connect and bond to it no matter what by code. This just saves you having to connect a bonding jumper to the green screw on the receptacle.
Always glad to hear your informative e-channel.👍, You should do an informative segment on new neutral bar/lug Square-D electrical panels & COFE breakers. Stay safe, John
I don't think this self grounding feature does much if a plastic cover is used. This is alluded to in the code section that you read. It must be flush mounted. This is accomplished when the receptacle is mounted to the box cover such as where a 4 x 4 inch box is used. Note that the self grounding feature is mounted on the front of the yoke. Mainly for external mounting with metal conduit. Common in industrial applications and sometimes in the garage or shed. Even without this feature you'll still get receptacle or switch incidental grounding by metal to metal contact from the mounting screws.
Thank you for video. I was working in my back yard. Damage my old 16 gauge cord. Went to reset my outlet only to find its no GFCI. I checked my electric panel to see if anything trip? Nothing. I WILL be changing it out👍
While you CAN use a self-grounded device like this, and have the box grounded via the device.... DON'T. Use the self-grounded device the other way, keep the ground wire to the box, and then skip the wire to the device. This way the box is always grounded, even if you remove the device.
@Robert Dahlgren well the entire planet doesn’t revolve around California. Just because it’s not good advice in California doesn’t mean it’s not good advice everywhere else. I can’t believe I have to explain that to an adult (Assuming you are).
Can you use bare solid copper wire (that you can cut from nm-b cable) as a pigtail to ground your box or outlet or does does code require them to be a green insulated wire like you have on the video?
Bare wire is legal as a pigtail, but insulated green wire is safer. If you have green electrical tape or green liquid electrical tape, you can wrap the bare pigtail wire with it or coat it with the liquid green electrical insulation.
Thanks for the info. I might use some bare with tape when I run out of pigtails i bought. Question - If you install a self grounding outlet in a metal box and then you go to tie your pigtail to the line cable ground, can the pigtail be tied to either the box ground screw or the outlet ground screw? Or does code require it to be tied to only the outlet or only the box? I wouldn't think it would matter but I don't know for certain.
@@morokeiboethia6749 depending on what year your dwelling was built, you can do one of several things: first, metal boxes must be bonded to the breaker panel which has the individual breaker. On the box where the receptacle is, the ground wires, next, must continue to the next downstream receptacle. The line cable's ground must go to the box. You must use either a wirenut, Wago connector, 10-32 ground screw or ground clip to attach the ground wire to the box. When attaching it to the box, you will also need to continue the ground to the load cable feeding the receptacles downstream. So when bonding the metal box, you will attach a pigtail to the box and attach the other end to the ground wire on the line cable and load cable. If using a self grounding receptacle, you have the choice of using the self ground feature or to use a pigtail from the cluster. If the Wago has no more room, the self grounding feature or a jumper pigtail screwed onto the receptacle and clipped to the bonded metal box edge will work.
Maybe for their brand but Eaton says you can on the outlets I used and they don't have that gold clip. The ground screws are very obviously tapped through the same yolk. Eaton states they're still self grounding. I have a hard time imagining that extra clip providing a good ground between the yolk and the screw as opposed to the yolk itself. Its all metal to metal even if that clip isn't there at least according to eaton. This is a code I think companies don't know what to tell people other than buy our product because it has an arbitrary ground clip. At least that's how I feel about it.
We always remove the flimsy clip before installing the #12 ground wire to the device. On some new work it makes device stick out of wall a little. Would never trust a thin 6/32 machine screw to handle what could be several thousands amps on a dead short. Way too many times a blue light special flimsy nail on plactic box is recessed in the wall so device yoke can move around causing a higher resistance. Have seen thin 6/32 screws rust in damp areas causing lost of material. A rusted 6/32 machine screw would cause a breaker longer to trip furing a shirt circuit.
Question: I'm replacing an old cooktop from the 1950s with a new one. The old one was hard wired to a surface mounted 4" metal box fed by 8/3 BX cable. The new unit does not use a neutral connection. Just L1, L2 and ground. The installation instructions specify that the green ground wire can be connected to the neutral white wire, or connected to a ground conductor. Since BX cable does not carry a dedicated ground conductor, is it acceptable to connect the unit's ground wire to a ground pigtail connected to the metal box to satisfy the grounding requirements? Also, the unit has 8/3 MC cable which will be secured to the 4" box with a metal box connector. Thanks!
Is the metal box grounded to begin with (like some old boxes do in the back of the box). Is the self grounding clip just an alternative to the pigtail? If there's no ground wire running to the outlet, the self grounding clip is useless right?
Using the adapter opens up more opportunities for testing the child proof receptacle, like being able to test for voltage with a non-contact voltage tester.
Bill, Nice video as always. You are a great teacher so keep them coming. I will look at three prong adapters completely different from now on. Thank you for sharing.
Will the self grounding clip still work if they are painted and plastered over? It's pretty common after electrical rough in for the drywall folks or painters to get stuff all over the junction box, especially the mounting ears and screws.
Paint/plaster on the face won't matter, it's relying on the threads for the connection. Will almost never be able to secure the outlet butt against the receptacle though on a finished wall. If screw can't be torqued down it can't meet code. Just a terrible design.
Would there still be good ground if the receptacle ears are floating on sheetrock. I have seen so many boxes set too deep and crooked for the plaster ears to touch metal. Even if the spring hugs the mounting screw, it seems to me that a heavy short would carbon up that tiny contact point in a literal flash.
The screw is metal so there is going to be contact to a metal box no matter what. The plastic or paper tab just holds the screw in, it doesn't interfere with continuity either. I don't get the whole need for some brass tab or a copper wire under the screw to hold it in the box
He was only using voltage. You test voltage in parallel just looking for potential difference. If he would have been testing amperage it would have tripped. Amperage is tested in serial and the current has to pass through the meter if testing with leads. Not a good idea though, because that would have been a short without a load. The outlet probably would have tripped though.
Is there self-grounding GFCi outlet that is rated WR (weather resistant) I was looking for one at HD but could not find. I need to put/ replace one I have outdoor. Thanks.
I have an outlet to replace that has 2 outgoing load cables connected to the outlet. I bought an AFCI outlet b/c its a bedroom and the first device from breaker. As far as the 2 load cables should i connect one cable using the (Load) screw terminal and the other cable using the (Load) clamping backwire terminal? Or is it better to just wire both cables to the load clamping backwire slots that are available on the outlet? Or does it not really make any difference either way?
how do we know that the ground connected to the outlet isn't touching the box after he installed it in the box?? Just a simple question?? It would do the same thing though.
Yes i noticed there is a very real chance that the bare ground wire also touches the box, especially with that big GFCI. so it doesn't really prove the point as to where/how it got grounded
Are those Leviton T5325-WMP (the regular decora style outlet) mentioned in the description truly self grounding? The page refers to them as "preferred" rather than "plus" mentioned in the video and I don't see a special brass clip on them. Just wanted to double check. Also, I see that they have a black piece of plastic on each screw, should they be removed? I left them on and it passed as grounded using an EMT without a grounding wire (grounding probably went through the screws themselves). Thanks for the great video!
Per the NEC you would remove the insulator from the screw. Makes sense to me because now you have metal to metal rather than grounding strictly through the screw.
Interesting. In old houses you often see the receptical grounded to the box through the screws with the jumper connected to to box but not the receptical. I didn't know code permitted it the other way around with certain approved devices.
I just came across sparky channel and I’m glad I did. I’d like someone to tell me which multimeter is best to invest in. I’m on my third year apprentice and haven’t got to work with multimeters yet but I want to buy one for future. Thank you
The way you have it installed the box will lose its ground when the outlet is removed. The box must be grounded. The outlet is allowed to be grounded by installing it in the box with a self grounding clip.
I was wondering why in the world he's using a pigtail, when demoing the self-grounding clip that is to be the ground path and therefore not require a pigtail.
Question here bathroom has a metal box its not grounded can i used the GFCI with the ground clip ? Will i get ground now? The receptacle shows open ground what can i do to pass inspection
@ there code compliant but affordable housing section 8 supervisor inspector did not approve it so what i did is make my own ground with the underneath kitchen drain metal pipe i installed a clip with a wire running behind the dry wall to GFCi to get Ground same as the bathroom sink getting ground from the water pipe. Hope it helps someone
It's extremely rare to screw outlet butt up against the box. Typically you want it to float a bit to match the wall surface. This makes the self grounding brass clip pointless. It's lazy and just allows for improper installation. Pigtail is more work but it's work done right.
what does the grounding clip do that the yoke doesnt? and could you hook incoming ground to the box instead of the receptacle? if the clip is approved it doesnt seem like it would matter if it went to receptacle or box. Im not saying its a better idea to hook to box, just looking for clarification.
So if you use a metal box with EMT without a third, grounding wire (relying on the steel to provide the ground), can you rely self grounding clip to bond the receptacle?
I expected that measuring the voltage from the line pin (it's not a 'positive', this is 120VAC, not DC) to ground would have tripped the GFCI . Guess the resistance through the meter when it's measuring voltage is high enough that it doesn't pass enough current to trip the GFCI .. Looking it up , 120 V / 4mA = 30K ohms, and the resistance of a volt meter is usually about 1 M ohm, so about 120 micro amps from hot to ground through the meter.
Nice video Bill you know I realize something some of these manufacturers make auto/self grounding outlets that don't have that brass clamp. yet they're listing their outlets to be self-grounding. also maybe it's just me but I would have done the ground voltage test at the actual ground prong of the outlet.
@@SparkyChannel By testing the ground connection on the box, you showed that the self grounding connection was valid. However I'm of the safety sort, that has seen what fault current does to a wimpy connection, and would always ground the box directly, with a pig tail to the device. I've experienced fault current that sprayed the back of my hand with vaporized copper and aluminum box connector, and the breaker never tripped, as the ground came from EMT connection from the grounded panel. After that, I always pulled a ground wire in EMT wired systems. Always!. There is too much voltage drop in steel and the box connectors to support enough fault current to trip the breaker.
I am confused. You connected the ground wire to the outlet. So what was the point of using a "self grounding clip"? Make a video of old wiring that does not have a ground wire and test that.
I am not a pro - if the outlet wasn't self grounding, then the ground wire coming out of the main power source would require two connections. One connection attached to the metal box and second connection attached to to the outlet itselft. Howeve, with self grounding, first step can be avoided.
I think you misunderstand the "self grounding" part. The green or bare ground wire is still required in the cable or pipe, connected all the way back to the panel. However the code requires that the ground wire be connected, both to the ground screw on the receptacle plug and the outlet box itself if it's metal. So if you install a "self grounding receptacle" then it removes the requirement to install a grounding pigtail, and connect that to the ground coming into the box, and to the receptacle. So WITHOUT self grounding receptacle, you make up ground+ grounding pigtail +receptacle ground in a wire nut. WITH a self grounding receptacle you make up ground wire coming to box directly to receptacle. If your box does not have the ground wire in it, then that's a different requirement. You'd need to replace with GFCI and put the sticker that says "no equipment ground".
I guess I'm still not getting what that clip DOES. Just improving contact between the device mounting screw and the device yoke (once paper washer removed)? Was the contact without that clip really that insufficient?
Don't you need to cut the bottom screw (or is that just handy boxes?) because it willing hit the romex connector and bend the screw if you don't cut it down.
I understand but on the video u grounded plug with ground wire question was could u ground box with ground wire and use self grounding receptacle not have ground wire connected to its terminal
@@jlmm3968 yes you can. As long as the box is metal and youve bonded the ground wire to the box you dont need to hit the receptacle. What he did there was technically above code requirements
Can you explain why to even use a metal box? I see you always taping the outlet terminals for extra protection and I have seen outlets that melt because they arced being too close to the box (back when metal boxes were smaller). Just curious why to even use metal boxes.
Metal boxes are stronger will not warp with heat or fire and actually better contains any arcing and fire risks. They are used on specific cases as well with metal armored cables or if metal conduit is running in and out of those boxes and often used when attaching to a brick or masonry type wall where they can be chased into the walls. While metal boxes themselves when attached to a stud do not have a natural ground path it’s usually bonded (a pigtail copper ground wire is attached to the ground wires that come into the box as those ground wires do have a direct path to the ground at the panels and ground rods). This ensures if there is a short to the box (live wire were to come loose and arc with the metal box or touch the metal box the metal cover or switch or receptacle do not become live). In reality nowadays most metal covers have a ground screw or plastic covers to mitigate the possibility of dangerous live touch current arising). Moreover nowadays even the receptacle and switch is electrically insulated from the outside I.e made from an electrically non-conductive material.
I prefer the metal reason being can always tap the threads when someone uses a drywall screw etc. I have saw plastic ones break when doing a simple fixture or device swap too many times, but the plastic boxes are cheaper so there's always that.
Math Man and Rob answered the question really well. When I was coming up as an electrician I worked for an electrical engineer and he wouldn't allow anything but metal boxes. He wanted the strength and durability.
So if let's say there was a short or something and would that little clip suffice for the amount of current to withstand the short and not possibly energize the metal mox?
Thats why they say sized appropriately So u can never not have the current needed to trip the breaker and break connection prior to tripping breaker but I agree with sparky
One of the main reasons to ground something is to get the breaker to trip. A short would run significant current and a breaker should trip that quickly. They probably test these scenarios to make sure the clip can withstand reasonable conditions.
@@bitbistro the breakers acts fast remember ohms law theres 0 resistance thus un regulated amp draw allowing for almost immediate c/b tripping atleast at that amps
Quick question, can you run 12-2 romex from your breaker panel thru your attic and then strip romex outer shield off and run your black,white and ground wires thru conduit to receptacle box ?
No. The conductors in romex are not marked with the insulation type so cant be removed from the sheath by code in this case. You can sleeve romex in conduit to protect it from physical damage or route it into a box to transition from the romex to THHN wires into the conduit
@@stillthakoolest There are thermal problems encasing long runs of ROMEX inside EMT. I believe NEC allows it for short runs. My main point is that it is addressed in the code and there are restrictions.
@@bobraible code reference? Yes, its smarter to use THHN in conduit, but most people are only sleeving short distances. This is the only reference I know off hand: 312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures. Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 312.5(A) through (C). (C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure. Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:
Only paper washer came on side without the brass self grounding clip. The side with self grounding clip did not have a paper washer. Do I have to take off the paper washer on the opposite side?
@@SparkyChannel ya know this is interesting. Just yesterday, I was pulling some 'old' receptacles from an old generator panel. They didn't have washers on one side, I was curious as to how I lost them... So today, I stumble on yet another of your informative videos, and I go "AHA"! Then this, I go grab them, and yep! down on the gold clip (under a magnifying glass) was 'Leviton'! S'plains it all!
Hi sparky I have a 1950 house with 2prong outlets and open ground on most of them if I install these outlets will the be grounded? Without a grounding wire going back to the fuse panel.
No. It would still be ungrounded. By code you must now either connect a ground wire from that outlet to a place on the grounding electrode system, another grounded outlet, etc. or install a GFCI receptacle ( most areas would need to be dual rated GFCI/AFCI receptacle about $25 a pop or put the whole circuit on a GFCI/AFCI breaker.
@@stillthakoolest So I have a similar setup with the two prong outlets but when I test the new three prong outlet with a tester it does show it’s indeed “correctly” grounded. Is this a false positive or is that good there?
@@tigeryeung2011 A bit confused by your question. so you removed the 2 prong outlets and just put a 3 prong outlet in? That's not legal under code. Is there a ground wire coming to the box? Is the box metal and wires coming in a metal conduit? You need an equipment grounding conductor to replace a 2 prong with a three prong unless you use a GFCI receptacle. Even then the circuit/receptacle isn't 'grounded' its just safer than before. You need to rewire the circuit.
@@stillthakoolest No so the previous two prong outlets were simply replaced with three but with a outlet tester it’a showing that it’s grounded. My understanding is that it’s grounded through both the screws and the metal plates coming off the yokes of the outlet onto the metal box. My question was would it be possible, with this setup, for the outlet tester to be showing a false positive that it’s indeed correctly grounded? Also is it possible that even if it’s technically “grounded” that the ground isn’t sufficient enough to really be useful.
Let's get this straight folks back in the forties and fifties they ran a separate copper ground wire on top of the studs of the house before sheetrocking they would attach this copper wire around the nails when they hammered the metal box into the stud this was always seen in kitchens and bathrooms rarely in bedrooms but sometimes it was in the bedrooms Outlets also so these new Outlets with the self grounding tab on the bottom will allow you to insert a grounded outlet to a metal box if it has a ground wire attached to the metal box you can only test this with a M by going from hot to the metal box and if you get the 120 V you have a grounded metal box therefore you can use that type of new receptacle with the Brass Tab to assure yourself of getting a secure grounded Outlet in that box use GFCI outlets in all the kitchen outlets in your old 1940s 1950s homes and you have updated it very easily make sure you turn the breaker off after testing for continuity between the hot wire and the metal box before installing your outlet
life long sparky and usually cut these flimsy POS clips out. Have seen way too many shinny 6/32 mounting screws either rusted halve way thru or broken providing no dependable ground. Way too many times wall box is set back so you do not get metal to metal contact. Code required a 10/32 screw to ground boxes that have twice as much metal. Nothing beats a #14 or #12 copper ground wire.
the brass self grounding clip doesnt seem like it does anything but hold the screw in place. is it providing ground or is the screw providing ground? or the yokd and the clip just holds screw in place? Im calling bs on the whole self grounding thing if they want you to tighten the yolk all the way to the box; that would suck the receptacle in too far for the face plate more times than not.
Screws and boxes may be galvanized, but once threaded that coating is essentially scratched off and will be prone to corrosion. Even more so if it now serves as a conductor. Someone at the NEC must have been paid off for this to ever make it into the code book.
Hi Sparky, been watching you for years. Great videos, I learn a lot. Question, correct me if I'm wrong, in DC circuits you have a Positive or Plus, Negative or Minus, and Ground. With AC circuits you have a Hot side a Neutral side and a Ground. Are the terms interchangeable. Again really like your videos.
Hi Robert! No, the terms really aren't interchangeable although people do goof now and then and we know what they are saying. I've been known to make one or two of those goofs from time to time. :)
Hot and neutral isn't always on an AC grid, this is only in AC grids which are referenced to ground potential. There are some smaller grids which actually don't have a neutral. Only hots and a ground. They're not referenced to the ground. For example if you use a galvanic isolation, which can be a safety transformer for example. This is a transformer with a winding ratio of 1:1, after this you won't have a line/hot and a neutral any longer. If you measure between the two then hots, you'll get your regular voltage of 120V (or here in Europe 230V). But if you would measure between one of the hots and the ground the voltage reading would be useless nonsense. Nice thing to trick apprentices.... In practical application you find such grids in hospitals, because the circuits can handle one ground fault without an outage of the circuit. The circuit breaker will only trip in case of an additional second ground fault. That's the reason in such grids the insulation must be monitored at all time.
DC circuits only have positive and negative. you will hear them referred to as positive ground (usually old systems) or negative ground (new systems) because the manufacturer of the system chooses one pole to use as the ground reference.
@@Shadi2 LOL! Yes, the NEC really doesn't like to clarify things like that. One inspector will interpret it one way and another will interpret it another way.
As long as the receptacle is self-grounding (meaning it has that special kind of clip on it) then no you wouldn't be required. When the receptacle is self-grounding, the box and receptacle become like one object b/c the receptacle is attaching itself to the box via metal-to-metal contact. If the receptacle is not self-grounding, then you have 2 objects that are not connected to each other metal to metal and so each object is required to be grounded separately. Since you aren't allowed to put 2 wires under one grounding screw, then running a jumper from receptacle to box then a pigtail from box to line cable ground wire wouldn't be allowed b/c you would have to fasten 2 ground wires to your box grounding screw. In a case of using a metal box and a non-self-grounding receptacle, you would need 2 grounding pigtail wires - one pigtail wire attaches to receptacle ground screw and then the other end of the pigtail connects to the line cable ground wire. The other grounding pigtail wire connects to the box grounding screw and then the other end of that pigtail connects to the line cable ground wire. (So you would wire nut the line cable ground wire + receptacle grounding pigtail + metal box receptacle grounding pigtail). And if you had a load cable present, then you would have to tie that grounding wire to them as well so that would tie all downstream devices into the grounding circuit.
The self grounding clip "is" the jumper between the receptacle and the box and they become like one object, then the grounding pigtail tied to the metal box grounding screw is grounding both the box and receptacle b/c they are one object - that is if the receptacle is self grounding and has that special clip.
@@morokeiboethia6749 My outlets need spacers at the bottom to make them flush with the wall. Hopefully the metal boxes have a screw to connect a pigtail to ground the receptacles since there is no grounding wire.
@@caseyhartman7094 there are grounding clips sold at electrical supply stores and hardware stores that allow you to clip a grounding wire to a metal box to ground the receptacle. I have a ground wire clipped to a bonded box in a 1955 home, and connected to my GFCI in my bathroom. I replaced an old 3 prong outlet with the GFCI to make it safer voluntarily. The box is grounded from behind, and the original owner who built the house grounded the old outlet by making a self grounder out of copper wire, legal per 1955 NEC regulations.
@@caseyhartman7094 If your wiring has metal conduit then that provides the ground to the (metal) box. Just need a pigtail from the box to the outlet ground terminal.
The weather resistant might not have it because i believe its stainless steel at least the screws are, I always hate dropping them off my screwdriver and then remember they aren't magnetic lol
You have a ground wire coming into the box and when you push the wires back in the grounding wire is touching the box rendering the clip useless 😑 perhaps try this without a grounded wire coming in at all. Show your results
This video was very informative. I wondered what that brace clip was all about. I wish in I’d known this before, it could of saved a lot of time and space when pushing wires into the gang-box. Thanks, much!
My pleasure, thanks!
Sparkman ALWAYS keeps me grounded. He’s the best teacher on TH-cam!
Good one! Thanks Joe!
I don’t think this is applied correctly. To me, the box stills needs to be grounded with the EGC but the receptacle doesn’t because it will do that through the clip and the box. But the way you have it the receptacle is grounding the box. Which I don’t think is how this code section is written.
In this video you show a "self grounding" outlet being installed with a ground wire. What if there is no ground wire?
I've looked at it the opposite way, connecting the ground wire to the box and the device's ground coming through the clip.
My reasoning is that the code always requires metal box to be grounded, whether there is a device associated with it or not.
I don't come across many metal receptacle boxes, as most metallic boxes i see are only for splices. When I do use a metal box for a device, i pigtail both.
Just bond the box with your bonding conductor that is within the wire. I always leave it a bit longer rap it around the box scew then use the end to the device; works well if you have to splice additional wires through as well. Technically the metal screws could give you continuity even without the tightening it all the way, but continuity doesn't always repercent an adequate bond.
Excellent, thanks!
I have grounded the box with the incoming wire (aka: home run) for the past 25 years. The inspectors I work with want ALL equipment grounding conductors bonded and connected BEFORE drywall. Receptacles are not installed until trim. The Self Grounding Clip just adds another level of safety. Ground paths, even multiple ground paths, are your friend in this case.
White definitely code, I'd never do this because I've seen far too many loose receptacles that have been swapped out by homeowners or loosened over the years. If it's not firmly secured that whole box could become energized, and if a homeowner is swapping something out this grounding clip detail will likely be missed by them but they'll skip the jumper since that's what we did.
Very informative on the code sections! Thanks as always! :)
My preference is to use both and to use the self-grounding clip as a redundant bonding method. Thanks!
I sure do appreciate how you show the code book references to verify what you say in your videos!
But article 250.148 specifies that the box has to be grounded itself independent of a device so if you remove that device put the wires in the Box that box is still supposed to be grounded
True, so it just saves you from having to pigtail a bonding jumper from the box to the receptacle on a metal box. In a plastic box it does nothing
This only applies when a metal box is used in a metal raceway to establish continuity with the service panel. The video shows a metal box NOT used with a metal raceway which defeats the purpose of the spring-type grounding strap of a self-grounding device.
@@stevenbernstein1978 not necessarily true. If you bond the EGC of the NM cable to the box, this feature saves you having to put a bonding jumper to the ground screw on the receptacle, but that is all
Many years ago an AHJ told me I had to put a ground screw and wire every box to the devise regardless of the brass tab. I had to rewire every box in the whole house. I always use a ground wire now. I don't think I would have tried to argue with him even if I knew about this video. Thanks for finding the exact code. At least I can support the argument.
Some local code can be more strict than the NEC. In those cases, you must go by your local code.
Nice video...So I guess the clip is a spring of sorts that they're relying upon to maintain good contact between the box/yoke/equipment grounding conductor... Seems like the yoke alone would do the job if it was tight, no? All the same, if I have room in the box, I'm running a separate bonding conductor to the box in case my self-grounding clip is not so selfish one day. Jus' makes me feel better.
I think you are mistaken, the self grounding clip allows you to not use the green ground screw on the device. You must bond a metal box, 250.148. NEC 250.148(B) says when you remove that device from the box you do not interrupted grounding continuity. Your example is bonding the box from the device. You can ground the device (unless in a raised cover) with the ground clip, grounding the box with the grounded yoke of a device is a code violation. If you believe I am mistaken please site code as I make mistakes all the time.
I don't see how that clip does anything for the connection between box and device. The screw doesn't touch it, it's on the front of the yoke and doesn't touch the box.
Personally, I'd rather go with Sparky's method and put the green wire (equipment grounding conductor) on the device. That's where you plug in things and have people contact. Once the wall is finished, nobody is coming in contact with the box. Even if the 'hot' wire somehow came into contact with the box, not that much risk to people compared to using a three-prong appliance/tool and not have a very strong/solid EGC.
@@mikefochtman7164 The threads of the screw create continuity between the device and the metal box. I always ground the device with a pig tail. If your using the raceway as your ground and no grounding conductor that self grounding device meets code. Unless it's a raised cover. I think the thought is if the ungrounded conductor comes off when you pull the raised cover away from the box it can contact the cover and not short to ground.
That tape around the receptacle creates more problems than it solves. Unless you like a black gooey mess, because the tape usually creeps off the device and and leaves a sticky mess in a trail wrapped around the wires.
I agree. Taping around receptacles and switches is a waste of time. Run the unused screws in if you're worried about them grounding out to the box. Stop using those small s/g boxes. For surface mount use 4/s boxes and raised covers. If it's a plastic box don't worry about it. I don't want that gooey crap on my plugs and switches either.
I was an electrician on ships for many years, I f'ing HATED finding that in a salt water filled box! It did help me find the grounds though! 😉
Thank you again for sharing your valuable electrical experience with the rest of us. I especially enjoy you taking the time to go over the NEC sections that have to do with what you are demonstrating/teaching about. Thank you!
What about running the spare screw connectors in rather than leaving them out before taping and installing the receptacle??? I was trained to always run the screws in...
I wonder if leaving the paper on the self-grounding clip would have still pass your grounding test. It would seem that the screw would have still provided the necessary grounding. Just curious.Thanks. Love your videos.
It would pass a grounding test but not pass code. Thanks!
@@SparkyChannel Besides, it's a rather tenuous connection: outlet metal - screw threads - box metal.
Maybe its just me, but why would you measure voltage from the hot to box instead of directly measuring continuity or resistance from the ground pin to box? Measuring voltage is indirectly measuring the bonding. Its possible (although highly unlikely) that an ungrounded box which is floating could still have 120v wrt hot. Measuring continuity or resistance would be a direct measure of what you are looking for - a low resistance path to ground. Since the meter has the capability I would always prefer the direct measurement to the indirect measurement - plus the continuity can be measured with the circuit deenergjzed if you so cared.
Exactly and if you're going to do it like that for demonstration purposes I would have left the paper tab in place first to show no voltage reading between the hot and the metal box and then removed it
Why the need to remove the paper washer..? There is a screw that touches the self grounding clip on the switch then runs through the metal nuts of the metal box, making the grounding bonding connection. The threads are making the metal to metal connection. There is often a little float between the box and the front of the drywall. The switch is often loosened to permit the switch to fight the cover plate and in those instances the paper washers only serve as keepers to keep the screws with the switches. Not trying to argue the code, I just don’t understand the logic.
I was gonna say, the code he read specifically says you only have to remove the insulator if the device *doesn't* have the grounding clip.
Yes, if you read the Code, it says your must have direct metal-to-metal contact, OR a self-grounding clip. No need to remove the paper washer on self-grounding devices.
These short code videos I really like them they are great reminders.
Thanks!
Ground should go to box that way it’s always protected just say you have a issue or a nick in the wire and needing to do testing then with the removal of receptacle it’s not grounded/bonded
I agree, thanks!
What happens if you space it off the box for dry wall appearance I guess metal spacers but most our plastic
If the drywall keeps the box away from the recept strap, you cannot use this method!
I don't see the point of installing the ground when taught you were illustrating the self-grounding method
Glad I'm not the only one.
This does not replace the grounding of the box. This just replaces the jumper.
The way you connected the ground wire to the receptacle means the receptacle is grounding the box. You should connect the ground wire to the box and then the box would ground the receptacle. That way the box won't lose continuity when the receptacle is removed. Regarding cover mounted receptacles, the self grounding clip is not necessary. No mention of it in NEC 250.146(A).
I'm confused. At the point you attach the bare copper grounding wire to the ground screw of the GFCI, isn't the outlet grounded at that point? And doesn't the self grounding clip become redundant? Shouldn't it be one or the other and not both?
The idea behind the clip is to bond the metal box. You absolutely want the ground wire attached to the receptacle for case grounding purposes. If the box is not grounded and the hot contacts the box, you are in for a surprise. At that point the hot is not interrupted by the GFCI comparator circuit because the current isn't flowing through the receptacle - if you touch the box it flows through you. I hope that helps.
Self-grounding appears to be bad wording.
Your method seems backwards to me. I always believed that the self grounding clip was provided to allow you to ground the ungrounded outlet by bonding it to a grounded box. What you did is use the self-grounding clip to bond the ungrounded box to a grounded outlet. Are both methods okay? Any code-fearing electricians want to weigh in on this? TIA.
Yeah, I wondered about this too, and it makes me not trust this as much. I can totally understand why Bill did it this way, but there is a risk that someone in the future may put in a standard receptacle without a grounding clip or understanding. There seem to be pros & cons to both methods, but it's more intuitive for a non-electrician to just check hot to ground and wrongly assume everything is fine when the reading checks out. If the box is directly grounded, then a pigtail or self grounding receptacle would evidently be needed. It's one simple extra step to ground both the box and the receptacle separately, and whilst this isn't what I would call cutting corners, it is not something I care to ever do. th-cam.com/video/bDFaVyvkQMc/w-d-xo.html I realise that this is mostly for demonstration, but it's questionable why this is a thing at all.
BobR, your belief is correct. The box must be already grounded. I believe that is the case in Bill's demonstration.
@@surferdude642 No, if you watch the video carefully you can see that the box is only grounded via the outlet and not via the incoming ground wire.
@@bobraible You're correct, the box is only grounded by contact from receptacle in which Romex ground wire is attached to. My mistake. Good catch. My home was built in 1950 with metal boxes. A ground wire was connected from the ground/neutral bus bar to the back of each box in a circuit to ground them. A 2 wire cable was run separately on each circuit for the hot and neutral connection. So the receptacle is grounded by the box instead of the box being grounded by the receptacle as in Bill's example.
Agreed. Video is pointless since a grounding wire was attached to the receptacle.
You could instead bond the cable to the box and leave the grounding terminal of the gfci empty then correct?
Metal box?
Yes. But if its a metal box you have to bond it no matter what
Question - If you have a self-grounding receptacle and a metal box, are you allowed to tie your grounding jumper wire to a grounding screw on the metal box and then tie the other end of the jumper to the LINE cable grounding wire? Or do you have to always tie it to the self grounding receptacle's grounding screw? It seems like both ways would achieve the same result but I'm not the one writing the code.
Love your videos. I would have liked to see you do the voltage test on a receptacle without the special clip but with the cardboard washers removed......to see how much better the special clip performs.
That's all good ,this only works if the gfci is tightly secured to the box ,suppose the mounting screws loosen ,if this happens you lose your ground, this is why I prefer ground pigtails
If the box is recessed too far into the wall, and the yoke of the receptacle contacts the drywall and can not make sufficient contact with the box, do the supporting screws provide sufficient continuity?
I don't think so. Imagine not tightening the conductors on the breaker, or not torqueing the neutral or ground inside the panel. You'd have a loose connection.
I was always told to connect ground wire regardless. Cause when the device is pulled forward now it is not grounded
I agree!
Pulled forward?
Didn't you screw it into the box?
So when you pull the receptacle out of the box it leaves the box ungrounded, leaving room for someone to get shocked if the hot happens to energize the box. I don't trust it. Also are you sure you did that right, maybe ground the box and allow the yoke to ground the receptacle?
When he removes the receptacle from the box without a bonding conductor the box will still be bonded to ground. The only thing that will lose its ground is if there are any devices plugged into it, while he removes it(not sure why anyone would do this)
You are actually not supposed to work on energized circuits!
@@charlestaylor3544 We all do it is part of being an electrician. Try troubleshooting equipment with power off.
@@DandyChigginz It’s not about trouble shooting equipment in a factory, (been doing that for thirty years!) it’s about changing out a live receptacle. OSHA will tell you not to work on energized circuits unless it absolutely can not be avoided.
You still have to bond the box no matter what. It just saves yoy having to put a bonding jumper from the box to the receptacle
Love the NEC videos, thanks.
Thanks Eric!
I don't understand. Whats the added benefit of the self grounding if you already have a ground wire?
I was thinking the same thing. The receptacle is grounded using the ground wire in the NM cable which is preferred since the ground wire ultimately returns (if not a home run return) to the service panel. Now it seems like it's double grounded. Perhaps two grounds are better than one?
Redundancy.
Does the NEC require redundancy? In the event that the receptacle was NOT self-grounded, wouldn't the NM cable ground wire connection comply with code?
Its not necessarily redundancy. If you are using EMT conduit then you dont need the bonding jumper from the box to the green screw on the receptacle. With NM cables it doesnt make much sense.
@@stevenbernstein1978 The metal box must be bonded. In this scenario, the ground wire provides a ground to the receptacle, in turn, the the installed receptacle provides the required bond to the metal box via the self-bonding yoke. You have now effectively satisfied both requirements without having to installed a bonding wire jumper.
@ 9:00 why did the GFCI not trip? Perhaps the line was connected to the load side of the receptacle?
The voltmeter he used has an extremely high impedance in the order of 10 megohms. The minuscule amount of current (~ 12 uA) through the meter isn't enough for the GFCI to detect as a ground fault. A GFCI will trip at about 5 mA (or less) of ground fault current which is about 400 times more current than the meter will draw.
I would still use a wire to ground the box. If the outlet is removed for testing purposes the box isn't bonded to the grounding system of the house. So it could become live at mains voltage.
Hi Marcel! I agree with you. My preference is to use both.
If its a metal box you have to connect and bond to it no matter what by code. This just saves you having to connect a bonding jumper to the green screw on the receptacle.
@@stillthakoolest Yes, I agree. He seems to have done things backwards.
Always glad to hear your informative e-channel.👍, You should do an informative segment on new neutral bar/lug Square-D electrical panels & COFE breakers.
Stay safe,
John
I don't think this self grounding feature does much if a plastic cover is used. This is alluded to in the code section that you read. It must be flush mounted. This is accomplished when the receptacle is mounted to the box cover such as where a 4 x 4 inch box is used. Note that the self grounding feature is mounted on the front of the yoke. Mainly for external mounting with metal conduit. Common in industrial applications and sometimes in the garage or shed. Even without this feature you'll still get receptacle or switch incidental grounding by metal to metal contact from the mounting screws.
Correct, this is only for metal boxes.
Thank you for video. I was working in my back yard. Damage my old 16 gauge cord. Went to reset my outlet only to find its no GFCI. I checked my electric panel to see if anything trip? Nothing. I WILL be changing it out👍
Glad it helped, thanks!
While you CAN use a self-grounded device like this, and have the box grounded via the device.... DON'T. Use the self-grounded device the other way, keep the ground wire to the box, and then skip the wire to the device. This way the box is always grounded, even if you remove the device.
@Robert Dahlgren well the entire planet doesn’t revolve around California.
Just because it’s not good advice in California doesn’t mean it’s not good advice everywhere else.
I can’t believe I have to explain that to an adult (Assuming you are).
@@pnv8477 He's right and it has nothing to do with Cali.
I always gain useful insight from your videos.....thanx for sharing!!!
Thanks William!
Can you use bare solid copper wire (that you can cut from nm-b cable) as a pigtail to ground your box or outlet or does does code require them to be a green insulated wire like you have on the video?
Bare wire is legal as a pigtail, but insulated green wire is safer. If you have green electrical tape or green liquid electrical tape, you can wrap the bare pigtail wire with it or coat it with the liquid green electrical insulation.
Thanks for the info. I might use some bare with tape when I run out of pigtails i bought. Question - If you install a self grounding outlet in a metal box and then you go to tie your pigtail to the line cable ground, can the pigtail be tied to either the box ground screw or the outlet ground screw? Or does code require it to be tied to only the outlet or only the box? I wouldn't think it would matter but I don't know for certain.
@@morokeiboethia6749 depending on what year your dwelling was built, you can do one of several things: first, metal boxes must be bonded to the breaker panel which has the individual breaker. On the box where the receptacle is, the ground wires, next, must continue to the next downstream receptacle. The line cable's ground must go to the box. You must use either a wirenut, Wago connector, 10-32 ground screw or ground clip to attach the ground wire to the box. When attaching it to the box, you will also need to continue the ground to the load cable feeding the receptacles downstream. So when bonding the metal box, you will attach a pigtail to the box and attach the other end to the ground wire on the line cable and load cable. If using a self grounding receptacle, you have the choice of using the self ground feature or to use a pigtail from the cluster. If the Wago has no more room, the self grounding feature or a jumper pigtail screwed onto the receptacle and clipped to the bonded metal box edge will work.
@@morokeiboethia6749 make sure the tape is colored green, to be legal, or if you buy liquid tape, that the color is green.
Maybe for their brand but Eaton says you can on the outlets I used and they don't have that gold clip. The ground screws are very obviously tapped through the same yolk. Eaton states they're still self grounding. I have a hard time imagining that extra clip providing a good ground between the yolk and the screw as opposed to the yolk itself. Its all metal to metal even if that clip isn't there at least according to eaton. This is a code I think companies don't know what to tell people other than buy our product because it has an arbitrary ground clip. At least that's how I feel about it.
We always remove the flimsy clip before installing the #12 ground wire to the device. On some new work it makes device stick out of wall a little. Would never trust a thin 6/32 machine screw to handle what could be several thousands amps on a dead short. Way too many times a blue light special flimsy nail on plactic box is recessed in the wall so device yoke can move around causing a higher resistance. Have seen thin 6/32 screws rust in damp areas causing lost of material. A rusted 6/32 machine screw would cause a breaker longer to trip furing a shirt circuit.
Question: I'm replacing an old cooktop from the 1950s with a new one. The old one was hard wired to a surface mounted 4" metal box fed by 8/3 BX cable. The new unit does not use a neutral connection. Just L1, L2 and ground. The installation instructions specify that the green ground wire can be connected to the neutral white wire, or connected to a ground conductor. Since BX cable does not carry a dedicated ground conductor, is it acceptable to connect the unit's ground wire to a ground pigtail connected to the metal box to satisfy the grounding requirements? Also, the unit has 8/3 MC cable which will be secured to the 4" box with a metal box connector. Thanks!
Is the metal box grounded to begin with (like some old boxes do in the back of the box). Is the self grounding clip just an alternative to the pigtail? If there's no ground wire running to the outlet, the self grounding clip is useless right?
Your first question: Yes, but both can be used. 2nd question: You answered correctly.
Using the adapter opens up more opportunities for testing the child proof receptacle, like being able to test for voltage with a non-contact voltage tester.
Bill,
Nice video as always. You are a great teacher so keep them coming. I will look at three prong adapters completely different from now on. Thank you for sharing.
Deal!
Will the self grounding clip still work if they are painted and plastered over? It's pretty common after electrical rough in for the drywall folks or painters to get stuff all over the junction box, especially the mounting ears and screws.
Paint/plaster on the face won't matter, it's relying on the threads for the connection. Will almost never be able to secure the outlet butt against the receptacle though on a finished wall. If screw can't be torqued down it can't meet code. Just a terrible design.
Would there still be good ground if the receptacle ears are floating on sheetrock. I have seen so many boxes set too deep and crooked for the plaster ears to touch metal. Even if the spring hugs the mounting screw, it seems to me that a heavy short would carbon up that tiny contact point in a literal flash.
The screw is metal so there is going to be contact to a metal box no matter what. The plastic or paper tab just holds the screw in, it doesn't interfere with continuity either. I don't get the whole need for some brass tab or a copper wire under the screw to hold it in the box
Bill your teachings are so valuable, thank you sir!
You are very welcome! Thanks Samuel!
Why didn’t the gfi trip when touched the box with the red lead?
Because the meter uses almost zero power. (clamp an amp meter in to see for yourself.)
Wondering same thing
He was only using voltage. You test voltage in parallel just looking for potential difference.
If he would have been testing amperage it would have tripped. Amperage is tested in serial and the current has to pass through the meter if testing with leads. Not a good idea though, because that would have been a short without a load. The outlet probably would have tripped though.
Same reason the tester lights don’t trip it.
Ya need a threshold of amperage to trip a GFCI
Is there self-grounding GFCi outlet that is rated WR (weather resistant) I was looking for one at HD but could not find. I need to put/ replace one I have outdoor. Thanks.
I have an outlet to replace that has 2 outgoing load cables connected to the outlet. I bought an AFCI outlet b/c its a bedroom and the first device from breaker. As far as the 2 load cables should i connect one cable using the (Load) screw terminal and the other cable using the (Load) clamping backwire terminal? Or is it better to just wire both cables to the load clamping backwire slots that are available on the outlet? Or does it not really make any difference either way?
how do we know that the ground connected to the outlet isn't touching the box after he installed it in the box?? Just a simple question?? It would do the same thing though.
Yes i noticed there is a very real chance that the bare ground wire also touches the box, especially with that big GFCI. so it doesn't really prove the point as to where/how it got grounded
How about the receptacles with the wire/spring holding the screw in?
I was told that they are accepted as self grounding.
Are those Leviton T5325-WMP (the regular decora style outlet) mentioned in the description truly self grounding? The page refers to them as "preferred" rather than "plus" mentioned in the video and I don't see a special brass clip on them. Just wanted to double check. Also, I see that they have a black piece of plastic on each screw, should they be removed? I left them on and it passed as grounded using an EMT without a grounding wire (grounding probably went through the screws themselves). Thanks for the great video!
Per the NEC you would remove the insulator from the screw. Makes sense to me because now you have metal to metal rather than grounding strictly through the screw.
Interesting. In old houses you often see the receptical grounded to the box through the screws with the jumper connected to to box but not the receptical. I didn't know code permitted it the other way around with certain approved devices.
I just came across sparky channel and I’m glad I did. I’d like someone to tell me which multimeter is best to invest in.
I’m on my third year apprentice and haven’t got to work with multimeters yet but I want to buy one for future. Thank you
You've been an apprentice for three years and haven't got to work with multi-meters yet???
Love your videos Bill, keep up the good work!!!
Thanks Ted!
How's it going Sparky? I have a question: can self ground receptacles be in used in surface mount systems?
Yes, if it's a metal box.
@@SparkyChannel Thank you!
The way you have it installed the box will lose its ground when the outlet is removed. The box must be grounded. The outlet is allowed to be grounded by installing it in the box with a self grounding clip.
I was wondering why in the world he's using a pigtail, when demoing the self-grounding clip that is to be the ground path and therefore not require a pigtail.
Question here bathroom has a metal box its not grounded can i used the GFCI with the ground clip ? Will i get ground now? The receptacle shows open ground what can i do to pass inspection
Gfci are code compliant
@ there code compliant but affordable housing section 8 supervisor inspector did not approve it so what i did is make my own ground with the underneath kitchen drain metal pipe i installed a clip with a wire running behind the dry wall to GFCi to get Ground same as the bathroom sink getting ground from the water pipe. Hope it helps someone
It's extremely rare to screw outlet butt up against the box. Typically you want it to float a bit to match the wall surface. This makes the self grounding brass clip pointless. It's lazy and just allows for improper installation. Pigtail is more work but it's work done right.
Wrapping it with tape. Is that required by code?
Not required by code. Just good practice and workmanship when using metal boxes.
Many AHJs require a grounding pigtail regardless of a ground clip. Just take the extra 15 seconds and .05¢
That's what I do. The ground clip is then a redundant ground which is a good thing.
@@SparkyChannel I agree with you 💯
what does the grounding clip do that the yoke doesnt? and could you hook incoming ground to the box instead of the receptacle? if the clip is approved it doesnt seem like it would matter if it went to receptacle or box. Im not saying its a better idea to hook to box, just looking for clarification.
The bare yoke is not an NEC approved grounding conductor.
do you have to use conduit if you use gfci outlets
No, not in all cases.
So if you use a metal box with EMT without a third, grounding wire (relying on the steel to provide the ground), can you rely self grounding clip to bond the receptacle?
I would say yes per the NEC. Always check with local authorities too though.
Yes
I expected that measuring the voltage from the line pin (it's not a 'positive', this is 120VAC, not DC) to ground would have tripped the GFCI .
Guess the resistance through the meter when it's measuring voltage is high enough that it doesn't pass enough current to trip the GFCI ..
Looking it up , 120 V / 4mA = 30K ohms, and the resistance of a volt meter is usually about 1 M ohm, so about 120 micro amps from hot to ground through the meter.
Nice video Bill you know I realize something some of these manufacturers make auto/self grounding outlets that don't have that brass clamp. yet they're listing their outlets to be self-grounding. also maybe it's just me but I would have done the ground voltage test at the actual ground prong of the outlet.
Excellent points, thanks!
@@SparkyChannel By testing the ground connection on the box, you showed that the self grounding connection was valid. However I'm of the safety sort, that has seen what fault current does to a wimpy connection, and would always ground the box directly, with a pig tail to the device.
I've experienced fault current that sprayed the back of my hand with vaporized copper and aluminum box connector, and the breaker never tripped, as the ground came from EMT connection from the grounded panel. After that, I always pulled a ground wire in EMT wired systems. Always!. There is too much voltage drop in steel and the box connectors to support enough fault current to trip the breaker.
One should be careful with old boxes that have been painted over. If there is paint in between it does not provide good enough connection.
Great information! Thank you for the excellent explanation
Glad it was helpful!
My concern would be if the box gets loose overtime then you won’t have a good ground
the ground wire is going directly to the receptical.
I am confused. You connected the ground wire to the outlet. So what was the point of using a "self grounding clip"? Make a video of old wiring that does not have a ground wire and test that.
I am not a pro - if the outlet wasn't self grounding, then the ground wire coming out of the main power source would require two connections. One connection attached to the metal box and second connection attached to to the outlet itselft. Howeve, with self grounding, first step can be avoided.
More info - if you've a plastic box instead of metal box, then you don't self grounding outlet, just get the normal grounding outlet.
@@sarcasm701 Exactly!
I think you misunderstand the "self grounding" part. The green or bare ground wire is still required in the cable or pipe, connected all the way back to the panel.
However the code requires that the ground wire be connected, both to the ground screw on the receptacle plug and the outlet box itself if it's metal. So if you install a "self grounding receptacle" then it removes the requirement to install a grounding pigtail, and connect that to the ground coming into the box, and to the receptacle.
So WITHOUT self grounding receptacle, you make up ground+ grounding pigtail +receptacle ground in a wire nut.
WITH a self grounding receptacle you make up ground wire coming to box directly to receptacle.
If your box does not have the ground wire in it, then that's a different requirement. You'd need to replace with GFCI and put the sticker that says "no equipment ground".
I guess I'm still not getting what that clip DOES. Just improving contact between the device mounting screw and the device yoke (once paper washer removed)? Was the contact without that clip really that insufficient?
Hi! The self-grounding clip increases the contact to the point where the NEC was comfortable with it.
@Fred Wills Ah! Makes sense. Thanks.
Don't you need to cut the bottom screw (or is that just handy boxes?) because it willing hit the romex connector and bend the screw if you don't cut it down.
You could if you needed to.
Could you ground box with wire and not put wire on receptacle ? Would receptacle still be grounded thru self grounding screw.
I was also wondering this?
Yes thats the whole point of this feature
I understand but on the video u grounded plug with ground wire question was could u ground box with ground wire and use self grounding receptacle not have ground wire connected to its terminal
@@jlmm3968 yes you can. As long as the box is metal and youve bonded the ground wire to the box you dont need to hit the receptacle. What he did there was technically above code requirements
Can you explain why to even use a metal box? I see you always taping the outlet terminals for extra protection and I have seen outlets that melt because they arced being too close to the box (back when metal boxes were smaller). Just curious why to even use metal boxes.
Metal boxes are stronger will not warp with heat or fire and actually better contains any arcing and fire risks. They are used on specific cases as well with metal armored cables or if metal conduit is running in and out of those boxes and often used when attaching to a brick or masonry type wall where they can be chased into the walls. While metal boxes themselves when attached to a stud do not have a natural ground path it’s usually bonded (a pigtail copper ground wire is attached to the ground wires that come into the box as those ground wires do have a direct path to the ground at the panels and ground rods). This ensures if there is a short to the box (live wire were to come loose and arc with the metal box or touch the metal box the metal cover or switch or receptacle do not become live). In reality nowadays most metal covers have a ground screw or plastic covers to mitigate the possibility of dangerous live touch current arising). Moreover nowadays even the receptacle and switch is electrically insulated from the outside I.e made from an electrically non-conductive material.
I prefer the metal reason being can always tap the threads when someone uses a drywall screw etc. I have saw plastic ones break when doing a simple fixture or device swap too many times, but the plastic boxes are cheaper so there's always that.
Math Man and Rob answered the question really well. When I was coming up as an electrician I worked for an electrical engineer and he wouldn't allow anything but metal boxes. He wanted the strength and durability.
So if let's say there was a short or something and would that little clip suffice for the amount of current to withstand the short and not possibly energize the metal mox?
I really don't know. I like to use both the equipment bonding jumper and the self-grounding clip.
Thats why they say sized appropriately So u can never not have the current needed to trip the breaker and break connection prior to tripping breaker but I agree with sparky
@@ronnyoo9371 good point I must have missed that but that is what I wanted to know thanks!
One of the main reasons to ground something is to get the breaker to trip. A short would run significant current and a breaker should trip that quickly. They probably test these scenarios to make sure the clip can withstand reasonable conditions.
@@bitbistro the breakers acts fast remember ohms law theres 0 resistance thus un regulated amp draw allowing for almost immediate c/b tripping atleast at that amps
Isolated grounded outlet would be
the opposite ?
Quick question, can you run 12-2 romex from your breaker panel thru your attic and then strip romex outer shield off and run your black,white and ground wires thru conduit to receptacle box ?
Some inspectors may say the cable isn’t supported going into the pipe, using an emt to flex/nmd connector would be ur best bet
You could splice the Romex in a junction box to THHN, then run through conduit to your receptacle box.
No. The conductors in romex are not marked with the insulation type so cant be removed from the sheath by code in this case. You can sleeve romex in conduit to protect it from physical damage or route it into a box to transition from the romex to THHN wires into the conduit
@@stillthakoolest There are thermal problems encasing long runs of ROMEX inside EMT. I believe NEC allows it for short runs. My main point is that it is addressed in the code and there are restrictions.
@@bobraible code reference? Yes, its smarter to use THHN in conduit, but most people are only sleeving short distances. This is the only reference I know off hand: 312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures. Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 312.5(A) through (C).
(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure. Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:
They’re annoying as hell when you’re trying to center devices but it’s nice to know. 👍
Yeas, I do understand!
In chicagoland area we use metal boxes and conduit as our ground. Confuses the hell out of people that are used to romex.
it is also no longer approved by code: steel isn't conductive enough.
Ken Brown that is patently false. 250.118(4) in the 2020 NEC lists EMT conduit as an acceptable Equipment Grounding Conductor
@@stillthakoolest funny. Hasn't been acceptable, here, for new work, in years.
Yeah, im guessing that is a local building code
Only paper washer came on side without the brass self grounding clip. The side with self grounding clip did not have a paper washer. Do I have to take off the paper washer on the opposite side?
NO, you're good. I've noticed that Leviton is only putting one paper washer on their self ground devices.
@@SparkyChannel ya know this is interesting.
Just yesterday, I was pulling some 'old' receptacles from an old generator panel. They didn't have washers on one side, I was curious as to how I lost them...
So today, I stumble on yet another of your informative videos, and I go "AHA"! Then this, I go grab them, and yep! down on the gold clip (under a magnifying glass) was 'Leviton'!
S'plains it all!
Here's a bright idea, Leviton should make the captive retaining washer METAL instead of fiber, then there's no need for removal.
Hi how about if a plastic box is being used wat are the options to properly ground?
It needs a ground wire for a proper ground.
@@SparkyChannel perfect ty I appreciate the response!
Hi sparky I have a 1950 house with 2prong outlets and open ground on most of them if I install these outlets will the be grounded? Without a grounding wire going back to the fuse panel.
No. It would still be ungrounded. By code you must now either connect a ground wire from that outlet to a place on the grounding electrode system, another grounded outlet, etc. or install a GFCI receptacle ( most areas would need to be dual rated GFCI/AFCI receptacle about $25 a pop or put the whole circuit on a GFCI/AFCI breaker.
@@stillthakoolest thanks for the information
@@stillthakoolest So I have a similar setup with the two prong outlets but when I test the new three prong outlet with a tester it does show it’s indeed “correctly” grounded. Is this a false positive or is that good there?
@@tigeryeung2011 A bit confused by your question. so you removed the 2 prong outlets and just put a 3 prong outlet in? That's not legal under code. Is there a ground wire coming to the box? Is the box metal and wires coming in a metal conduit? You need an equipment grounding conductor to replace a 2 prong with a three prong unless you use a GFCI receptacle. Even then the circuit/receptacle isn't 'grounded' its just safer than before. You need to rewire the circuit.
@@stillthakoolest No so the previous two prong outlets were simply replaced with three but with a outlet tester it’a showing that it’s grounded. My understanding is that it’s grounded through both the screws and the metal plates coming off the yokes of the outlet onto the metal box. My question was would it be possible, with this setup, for the outlet tester to be showing a false positive that it’s indeed correctly grounded? Also is it possible that even if it’s technically “grounded” that the ground isn’t sufficient enough to really be useful.
Interesting. I have been taught to ground box cause once the receptacle is out of the box the box is not grounded anymore. Chance of a zap
Yes, that's why I prefer to use the equipment bonding jumper. But I like to use both
@@SparkyChannel I was thinking the same... if the wire is there, use it. (I've done that even with the box bonded through the conduit.)
So would spacers or Arlington “goof rings” violate the code exception in being that only the 6/32 creates continuity?
Reinstall the "pigtail" then?
Let's get this straight folks back in the forties and fifties they ran a separate copper ground wire on top of the studs of the house before sheetrocking they would attach this copper wire around the nails when they hammered the metal box into the stud this was always seen in kitchens and bathrooms rarely in bedrooms but sometimes it was in the bedrooms Outlets also so these new Outlets with the self grounding tab on the bottom will allow you to insert a grounded outlet to a metal box if it has a ground wire attached to the metal box you can only test this with a M by going from hot to the metal box and if you get the 120 V you have a grounded metal box therefore you can use that type of new receptacle with the Brass Tab to assure yourself of getting a secure grounded Outlet in that box use GFCI outlets in all the kitchen outlets in your old 1940s 1950s homes and you have updated it very easily make sure you turn the breaker off after testing for continuity between the hot wire and the metal box before installing your outlet
What does the nec say about tamper resistant receptacles? I still see you use some none tamper resistant rec.
NEC requires TR receptacles in all residential installations.
@ken brown not all places in residential require them, but there is a big list of locations
life long sparky and usually cut these flimsy POS clips out. Have seen way too many shinny 6/32 mounting screws either rusted halve way thru or broken providing no dependable ground. Way too many times wall box is set back so you do not get metal to metal contact. Code required a 10/32 screw to ground boxes that have twice as much metal. Nothing beats a #14 or #12 copper ground wire.
Thanks!
the brass self grounding clip doesnt seem like it does anything but hold the screw in place. is it providing ground or is the screw providing ground? or the yokd and the clip just holds screw in place? Im calling bs on the whole self grounding thing if they want you to tighten the yolk all the way to the box; that would suck the receptacle in too far for the face plate more times than not.
Screws and boxes may be galvanized, but once threaded that coating is essentially scratched off and will be prone to corrosion. Even more so if it now serves as a conductor.
Someone at the NEC must have been paid off for this to ever make it into the code book.
Probably same genesis that came up with flimsy stab in on receptacles & switches.
The code says this method is for surface mounted boxes.
Hi Sparky, been watching you for years. Great videos, I learn a lot. Question, correct me if I'm wrong, in DC circuits you have a Positive or Plus, Negative or Minus, and Ground. With AC circuits you have a Hot side a Neutral side and a Ground. Are the terms interchangeable. Again really like your videos.
Hi Robert! No, the terms really aren't interchangeable although people do goof now and then and we know what they are saying. I've been known to make one or two of those goofs from time to time. :)
Hot and neutral isn't always on an AC grid, this is only in AC grids which are referenced to ground potential. There are some smaller grids which actually don't have a neutral. Only hots and a ground. They're not referenced to the ground. For example if you use a galvanic isolation, which can be a safety transformer for example. This is a transformer with a winding ratio of 1:1, after this you won't have a line/hot and a neutral any longer. If you measure between the two then hots, you'll get your regular voltage of 120V (or here in Europe 230V). But if you would measure between one of the hots and the ground the voltage reading would be useless nonsense. Nice thing to trick apprentices....
In practical application you find such grids in hospitals, because the circuits can handle one ground fault without an outage of the circuit. The circuit breaker will only trip in case of an additional second ground fault. That's the reason in such grids the insulation must be monitored at all time.
DC circuits only have positive and negative. you will hear them referred to as positive ground (usually old systems) or negative ground (new systems) because the manufacturer of the system chooses one pole to use as the ground reference.
"Flush type boxes" is key. If you use a box extender to comply with NEC 314.20, this won't work.
Have you ever seen a NEC article that specifically says you can't use a self-grounding clip on a metal box that has a mud plate?
@@SparkyChannel No, the topic appears to be as clear as mud. 😊
@@Shadi2 LOL! Yes, the NEC really doesn't like to clarify things like that. One inspector will interpret it one way and another will interpret it another way.
If the box is grounded, is it required to put a jumper on the receptacle ground screw to the box? Just curious... 🐀🐾
As long as the receptacle is self-grounding (meaning it has that special kind of clip on it) then no you wouldn't be required. When the receptacle is self-grounding, the box and receptacle become like one object b/c the receptacle is attaching itself to the box via metal-to-metal contact. If the receptacle is not self-grounding, then you have 2 objects that are not connected to each other metal to metal and so each object is required to be grounded separately. Since you aren't allowed to put 2 wires under one grounding screw, then running a jumper from receptacle to box then a pigtail from box to line cable ground wire wouldn't be allowed b/c you would have to fasten 2 ground wires to your box grounding screw. In a case of using a metal box and a non-self-grounding receptacle, you would need 2 grounding pigtail wires - one pigtail wire attaches to receptacle ground screw and then the other end of the pigtail connects to the line cable ground wire. The other grounding pigtail wire connects to the box grounding screw and then the other end of that pigtail connects to the line cable ground wire. (So you would wire nut the line cable ground wire + receptacle grounding pigtail + metal box receptacle grounding pigtail). And if you had a load cable present, then you would have to tie that grounding wire to them as well so that would tie all downstream devices into the grounding circuit.
The self grounding clip "is" the jumper between the receptacle and the box and they become like one object, then the grounding pigtail tied to the metal box grounding screw is grounding both the box and receptacle b/c they are one object - that is if the receptacle is self grounding and has that special clip.
@@morokeiboethia6749 My outlets need spacers at the bottom to make them flush with the wall. Hopefully the metal boxes have a screw to connect a pigtail to ground the receptacles since there is no grounding wire.
@@caseyhartman7094 there are grounding clips sold at electrical supply stores and hardware stores that allow you to clip a grounding wire to a metal box to ground the receptacle. I have a ground wire clipped to a bonded box in a 1955 home, and connected to my GFCI in my bathroom. I replaced an old 3 prong outlet with the GFCI to make it safer voluntarily. The box is grounded from behind, and the original owner who built the house grounded the old outlet by making a self grounder out of copper wire, legal per 1955 NEC regulations.
@@caseyhartman7094 If your wiring has metal conduit then that provides the ground to the (metal) box. Just need a pigtail from the box to the outlet ground terminal.
Is ti really save to use a self grouding receptacle to replace an ungrounded circuit with 2 wires? Please help.
Thank you.
No, in some old buildings the bx is the ground path, but you want a gfci for that circuit
Like he used in the video.
Thank you.
The weather resistant might not have it because i believe its stainless steel at least the screws are, I always hate dropping them off my screwdriver and then remember they aren't magnetic lol
Excellent point!
You have a ground wire coming into the box and when you push the wires back in the grounding wire is touching the box rendering the clip useless 😑 perhaps try this without a grounded wire coming in at all. Show your results