Canadian electrician here. We have not adapted range, dryers, microwaves etc for GFCI protection. It seems inane, but maybe I'm just uneducated about the reasons. The only reason I can think of is to push new products out the door that otherwise wouldn't be bought for any reason. I struggle to think of a valid reason why an elevated microwave needs GFCI protection. Likewise with the range. You go from charging the homeowner $40 for a two-pole breaker now to several hundred, causing homes to be continously more expensive, and if you're doing renovations you must charge for all this accordingly, and your prices will push people to seek alternative contractors that will do the jobs for cheap and not pull permits. If anyone has a valid reason to install a range, dryer, microwave on a GFCI branch circuit or receptacle, please kindly let me know.
You make excellent arguments. Each edition of the NEC gets tougher and tougher. I was just trying to answer the gentleman's question but I like your discussion/comment. Let's see what other viewers feel about this.
@@jameskoehler4939 I thought it was talking about 150V to ground on each phase, because it is specifically referring to an electric range, and you only get >150V when you check phase to phase. I've never seen an electric range at 120V unless it was gas. Then again I guess you can argue that a gas range is still electric if it plugs into a receptacle, except it's primary heating elements are not electric. Anyways, now we're getting too far off topic😅
Shit, maybe it is. Either way, it's retarded. So we could run a stinger leg circuit without GFCI? This really shows the lack of logic in these codes.@@avsrule247
Interesting where some people get their information. The NEC is getting more and more stringent on GFCI protection, especially in kitchens. Jurisdictions or states may elect not to adopt certain articles of the NEC, as written. AFCI and GFCI articles are among those. Good topic, Bill.
Good morning, Don! Thanks for the help on this one. There is a huge confusion on this topic. Apparently, even some states and jurisdictions disagree about it.
Almost seems that the people writing these codes have stocks invested in circuit breaker manufacturers. Looking at 210.8 (b) , gfci protection in other than dwelling units, 125 and 250 volt receptacles 150 volts or less to ground. So what they're basically saying is a lot of 2 pole GFCI breakers will be sold. However, let's say I have a NEMA 6-xx receptacle in one of the locations specified, and I'm using phase A -B in a 120/240V 3 ph 4w delta panel with B phase as the stinger leg. What that means is I'm not required to provide GFCI protection because one of the phases is 208V to ground, although the breaker must be a 240V straight rating. That's my interpretation, what are your thoughts? Let me know in the comments.
I'm not sure what the NEC says, but I recommend putting mounted microwaves on their own circuits, and 20-amp if that's allowed. For some reason in this 70's house they put the kitchen lights and the microwave on the same 15-amp circuit, and it dims the lights every time the microwave is used, even LED bulbs somewhat. I have a 1200w modern microwave. Edit: Oh I see you recommend the same! I posted this before finishing the video, lol.
The people writing these codes have lost their minds. Fixed appliance that are properly grounded don’t pose a shock hazard. It seems to me the standard is moving to double and triple redundancy to prevent an event that may occur every 50 years. The cost/benefit relationship is no longer intact.
People die everyday and there is no way to stop that. There is also no such thing as 100% safe. A proper safety analysis weighs the cost benefits of adding the increased complexity and cost to mitigate an incremental risk. There's a limit. You cannot prevent every accident and every death because there is no amount of technology or money that can do that. I believe the line has been crossed, you may not. Think about a car where no one dies. How many billions of dollars will you pay for that? And it still won't catch them all. @cjrock4096
Its a simple voltage divider. I assure you that hypothetical >5mA leakage current you speak of will find the ultralow impedance ground conductor far more appealing than the very high impedance human body. @@alvilla701
I can see how this plays out. The manufacturers on the technical committee need to raise revenues to meet their growth goals and secure their bonuses so they come up with all kinds of new expensive gizmos and justify their introduction in the name of safety. The installers on the committee argue that its going to add a huge costs but they can do cost plus and increase their revenues as well so, they go along with it. The underwrites on the committee reason, hell, if there is one less claim, sounds good to us. So, it gets approved and added to the next edition. They are all winners except, the consumer loses bigtime . The consumer always gets screwed. They used to have a panel filled with $6 breakers and now they have a panel filled with $50 breakers. The end-user notices no increase in performance and may even experience nuisance interruptions but they sure noticed the increase cost of the house.
then the low bid electrician wires the whole house at 3W per square foot, and the breakers keep tripping because of all the stuff that people plug in, nowadays, so they call the electrician, and it would cost thousands to upgrade their wiring, then the handyman says they can just change out the breakers. and that's why I went to a service call, where the portable sauna didn't work because a 3 foot section of #14 romex had burned in two, but the 30 amp breaker didn't trip.
A lot of times the GFCI on microwaves, ovens, dishwashers, and related devices, the recepticles are not easily accessible. If the GFCI trips on a dishwasher the homeowner would have to pull the device out to access the reset buttons. I have started to see these devices hardwired to eliminate the local GFCI and put a GFCI breaker instead.
Hey Sparky. Good video. But sump pumps must be on GFCI? Seems like that is something you ALWAYS want to work and not be behind a prone-to-fail device like a GFCI. I wonder the reasons?
Question when it comes to refrigerators. Most folks say no to GFI protection outlets for refrigerators because the compressors can draw a large amount of juice when kicking on. Some electrician's have put out that if your fridge is kicking off the GFI plug in a garage, put the GFI outlet in the next plug in the line (to protect the rest of the line, but not the fridge). I really couldnt find anything on that!!!! That lead me to thinking. Lets say you have a fridge in the garage and it's plugged into the first outlet in the line. The second outlet is a bathroom. The next outlet is an outside plug then two more outlets in the garage. If what this other electrician was saying accurate, the first outlet could be changed to a regular 15 amp outlet. The next on in series is the bathroom. Change that one from a regular 15 amp outlets to a 15 amp CGFI outlet to protect the bathroom and the rest of the circuit. So confusing!!!!
Fridges should be on their own 15A circuit. If it gets tripped by a different plug elsewhere then you may have $300 of rotten meat because you were unaware of the trip.
I guess that I would need more explanation on the why on a few of those i.e. vending machines, microwaves, tire inflation machines. Should the requirement be for outdoor vending only? Microwaves generally aren’t working in “wet” exterior conditions. I just don’t understand.
my inspector back in the early part of the century had a low bid electrician put in 15A circuits for over the range microwaves in a multifamily dwelling, and told him it was okay, because he was going to install 1000W microwaves. so he went microwave shopping that weekend, and found there was only one model of over the range microwave that it is legal to feed from a 15A circuit. in my state, the specialty code allows fixed appliances to be fed from a non GFCI protected circuit in a dwelling unit. but that doesn't include countertop microwaves. it does include dishwashers, but I developed a habit of putting a faceless GFCI under the kitchen sink to serve as a local disconnect for the dishwasher - unless it's a cord connected model, in which case I can just put in a standard GFCI and safe off the wire that would feed a hardwired dishwasher.
LOL! A 15A circuit for a microwave is just plain being cheap. You know the owners will eventually change out the original micro for a higher watt one. I love that some states stand up against overly stringent new codes. It sends a message.
@SparkyChannel the original argument for AFCI tech qas to prevent fires from damaged electric blankets. Now I'm seeing maxed out circuits, because electricians are trying to get away with one less breaker.
Great info on the 2023 Code changes & requirements! However, it is worth noting that: Electrical device manufacturers (e.g. Leviton, Siemens, Schnieder/Sq-D, et.al.) all have VERY heavy input and influence into the NFPA-70's Code-making panels. Therefore it should come as no surprise that these companies would push the much more expensive devices to be "required" nearly everywhere. After all, if you can sell circuit breakers that cost $70 - instead of one's that cost $7 - which would you rather be trying to sell? (And it's doubtful they cost 10-times as much to manufacturer). Just follow the money... For some appliances - like a dishwasher or sink disposal - a GFCI recep' is not always easy enough to access in the event of a trip. Therefore, a GFCI-type breaker must be used... at 10-times the cost. While GFCI's have been around quite awhile, and have become pretty reliable, AFCI's have not. The technology is still fairly fresh, and they still suffer from nuisance tripping - usually without any notable cause. They are also very sensitive to utility line surges (such as lightning) which can damage the circuitry and will cause them to nuisance trip even more. I recently removed four such devices from my own residence - which all began randomly tripping following a thunder storm event in my area (a very common occurance here in my area of west Texas. We did not suffer any outage during the storm). Once the defective AFCI breakers were replaced... no more nuisance tripping (they were relpaced with standard breakers). I have heard of electricians who will install the required AFCI breakers in a new construction house, simply to pass inspection, then will remove & replace them with standard breakers afterwards, just to eliminate endless trouble-calls from the new homeowner. While the protection idea is wonderful, the reliability of the equipment designs and technology hasn't quite caught-up...
First of all, let me say that you have a wonderful ability to write effectively while also getting your points across. Well done on that. Also, I agree with everything you mentioned except for swapping out required AFCI's for standard breakers. For my 2 cents, I think that whoever included sump pumps in this never owned a sump pump. Thanks!
Above the range microwaves or range hoods require a dedicated circuit. Must be GFCI protected if within 6 feet of a sink, or if 2023 code is in effect. Here in Florida we're on the 2020 code until 2026.
If you have already you might want to replace the ballast. My guess is that the ballast is allowing a small amount of current to leak from the neutral to the ground wire.
@@everythinghomerepair1747 ah it was a restore find, there's gotta be some sorta super janky fix for it It's also an electronic ballast which I haven't had the best results with, they all make my speakers hum which is weird because my amplifier is 2 wire. One electronic ballast I have has an extremely weird flaw, it works as normal for a while then randomly it starts a pulsating 60hz buzz very loudly through my speakers. It has fans but they are missing blades and don't spin. I do not use that ballast anymore.
210.8(A)(6) required in Dwelling Units Kitchen's (if a fridge in the kitchen, it needs GFCI 210.8(A)(11) required in Dwelling Units Laundry areas. (Phrased so no matter what area the Laundry machines are installed in, they are required GFCI.).
been having issues with dryer gfi's had the inspector out and he said put in a regular breaker , some applications just aint workin right @@JeffBanfield-t6v
In that case what probably happened was that the equipment installer bonded the ground and neutral inside the machine out of habit. This is the configuration for a regular breaker, for GFCI they must be separate. You should be able to open up the back, remove the jumper and it should solve your issue.@@DeltaCo7175
Wtf is a GFCI? Is it a RCD (residual current device, trips on earth leakage). In Australia, all circuits, other than feeds to subboards, must be on RCD.
My understanding is it needs to be an easily accessible outlet near water, outside, or in an unfinished are to require GFCI. a single outlet behind a refrigerator in a cove shouldn't.
Canadian electrician here. We have not adapted range, dryers, microwaves etc for GFCI protection. It seems inane, but maybe I'm just uneducated about the reasons. The only reason I can think of is to push new products out the door that otherwise wouldn't be bought for any reason. I struggle to think of a valid reason why an elevated microwave needs GFCI protection. Likewise with the range. You go from charging the homeowner $40 for a two-pole breaker now to several hundred, causing homes to be continously more expensive, and if you're doing renovations you must charge for all this accordingly, and your prices will push people to seek alternative contractors that will do the jobs for cheap and not pull permits.
If anyone has a valid reason to install a range, dryer, microwave on a GFCI branch circuit or receptacle, please kindly let me know.
You make excellent arguments. Each edition of the NEC gets tougher and tougher. I was just trying to answer the gentleman's question but I like your discussion/comment. Let's see what other viewers feel about this.
This code says circuits at 150v or less, so it wouldn't apply to any oven or range I've ever seen. Still, that make even less sense.
@@jameskoehler4939 I thought it was talking about 150V to ground on each phase, because it is specifically referring to an electric range, and you only get >150V when you check phase to phase. I've never seen an electric range at 120V unless it was gas. Then again I guess you can argue that a gas range is still electric if it plugs into a receptacle, except it's primary heating elements are not electric. Anyways, now we're getting too far off topic😅
Shit, maybe it is. Either way, it's retarded. So we could run a stinger leg circuit without GFCI? This really shows the lack of logic in these codes.@@avsrule247
@@jameskoehler4939 The Code references 150v or less, to GROUND, not phase-to-phase. Therefore, a 240v range (120v phase-to-ground) would be included.
Good explanation Sparky. I really appreciate your videos.
My pleasure Gary. Have a great Sunday!
👍🔨Thanks for the great video
Thanks Charles!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
👍 Thanks friend
My pleasure, thanks!
Interesting where some people get their information. The NEC is getting more and more stringent on GFCI protection, especially in kitchens. Jurisdictions or states may elect not to adopt certain articles of the NEC, as written. AFCI and GFCI articles are among those. Good topic, Bill.
Good morning, Don! Thanks for the help on this one. There is a huge confusion on this topic. Apparently, even some states and jurisdictions disagree about it.
Almost seems that the people writing these codes have stocks invested in circuit breaker manufacturers. Looking at 210.8 (b) , gfci protection in other than dwelling units, 125 and 250 volt receptacles 150 volts or less to ground. So what they're basically saying is a lot of 2 pole GFCI breakers will be sold.
However, let's say I have a NEMA 6-xx receptacle in one of the locations specified, and I'm using phase A -B in a 120/240V 3 ph 4w delta panel with B phase as the stinger leg. What that means is I'm not required to provide GFCI protection because one of the phases is 208V to ground, although the breaker must be a 240V straight rating. That's my interpretation, what are your thoughts? Let me know in the comments.
It will increase sales. I have to agree with that.
Good info Bill ... Thx
You are the best
Thank you
Thanks Tommy!
Might as well just GFI/AFI the entire house. There is nothing left now that does NOT require these! lol. Makes the code a lot simpler.
Exactly what I'm saying 🤷
Sparky that's good advice...
Thanks
Welcome!
Very helpful thanks
No problem. Have a great Sunday!
I'm not sure what the NEC says, but I recommend putting mounted microwaves on their own circuits, and 20-amp if that's allowed. For some reason in this 70's house they put the kitchen lights and the microwave on the same 15-amp circuit, and it dims the lights every time the microwave is used, even LED bulbs somewhat. I have a 1200w modern microwave.
Edit: Oh I see you recommend the same! I posted this before finishing the video, lol.
Great minds think alike!
The people writing these codes have lost their minds. Fixed appliance that are properly grounded don’t pose a shock hazard. It seems to me the standard is moving to double and triple redundancy to prevent an event that may occur every 50 years. The cost/benefit relationship is no longer intact.
People could die even when something is grounded cause regular circuit breakers won't detect small amount of energy
People die everyday and there is no way to stop that. There is also no such thing as 100% safe. A proper safety analysis weighs the cost benefits of adding the increased complexity and cost to mitigate an incremental risk. There's a limit. You cannot prevent every accident and every death because there is no amount of technology or money that can do that. I believe the line has been crossed, you may not. Think about a car where no one dies. How many billions of dollars will you pay for that? And it still won't catch them all. @cjrock4096
Its a simple voltage divider. I assure you that hypothetical >5mA leakage current you speak of will find the ultralow impedance ground conductor far more appealing than the very high impedance human body. @@alvilla701
So what. In the middle the breaker trips. Do you want to go outside in the freezing cold, or in a cold basement or garage to reset the breaker?
@cjrock4096 I know what they are for. But if an outlet trips, I can just reset the outlet. Instead of having to go down in a cold basement.
I can see how this plays out. The manufacturers on the technical committee need to raise revenues to meet their growth goals and secure their bonuses so they come up with all kinds of new expensive gizmos and justify their introduction in the name of safety. The installers on the committee argue that its going to add a huge costs but they can do cost plus and increase their revenues as well so, they go along with it. The underwrites on the committee reason, hell, if there is one less claim, sounds good to us. So, it gets approved and added to the next edition. They are all winners except, the consumer loses bigtime . The consumer always gets screwed. They used to have a panel filled with $6 breakers and now they have a panel filled with $50 breakers. The end-user notices no increase in performance and may even experience nuisance interruptions but they sure noticed the increase cost of the house.
The end user doesn't notice anything until they get shocked by the metal casing of an appliance with a fault inside.
@@ewicky Why isn’t the appliance grounded per the code?
then the low bid electrician wires the whole house at 3W per square foot, and the breakers keep tripping because of all the stuff that people plug in, nowadays, so they call the electrician, and it would cost thousands to upgrade their wiring, then the handyman says they can just change out the breakers. and that's why I went to a service call, where the portable sauna didn't work because a 3 foot section of #14 romex had burned in two, but the 30 amp breaker didn't trip.
Wow!
A lot of times the GFCI on microwaves, ovens, dishwashers, and related devices, the recepticles are not easily accessible. If the GFCI trips on a dishwasher the homeowner would have to pull the device out to access the reset buttons. I have started to see these devices hardwired to eliminate the local GFCI and put a GFCI breaker instead.
Good point, thanks!
2023 NEC 422.16(B)(2)(5)
Hey Sparky. Good video. But sump pumps must be on GFCI? Seems like that is something you ALWAYS want to work and not be behind a prone-to-fail device like a GFCI. I wonder the reasons?
I would hate to put a sump pump on a GFCI as that would be a source of urgent call-backs. Clearly, it's the code now though.
Happy Saturday Bill 😎⚒️😎⚒️😎
Good morning Ted!
Question when it comes to refrigerators. Most folks say no to GFI protection outlets for refrigerators because the compressors can draw a large amount of juice when kicking on. Some electrician's have put out that if your fridge is kicking off the GFI plug in a garage, put the GFI outlet in the next plug in the line (to protect the rest of the line, but not the fridge). I really couldnt find anything on that!!!! That lead me to thinking. Lets say you have a fridge in the garage and it's plugged into the first outlet in the line. The second outlet is a bathroom. The next outlet is an outside plug then two more outlets in the garage. If what this other electrician was saying accurate, the first outlet could be changed to a regular 15 amp outlet. The next on in series is the bathroom. Change that one from a regular 15 amp outlets to a 15 amp CGFI outlet to protect the bathroom and the rest of the circuit. So confusing!!!!
Fridges should be on their own 15A circuit. If it gets tripped by a different plug elsewhere then you may have $300 of rotten meat because you were unaware of the trip.
I guess that I would need more explanation on the why on a few of those i.e. vending machines, microwaves, tire inflation machines. Should the requirement be for outdoor vending only? Microwaves generally aren’t working in “wet” exterior conditions. I just don’t understand.
my inspector back in the early part of the century had a low bid electrician put in 15A circuits for over the range microwaves in a multifamily dwelling, and told him it was okay, because he was going to install 1000W microwaves. so he went microwave shopping that weekend, and found there was only one model of over the range microwave that it is legal to feed from a 15A circuit.
in my state, the specialty code allows fixed appliances to be fed from a non GFCI protected circuit in a dwelling unit. but that doesn't include countertop microwaves. it does include dishwashers, but I developed a habit of putting a faceless GFCI under the kitchen sink to serve as a local disconnect for the dishwasher - unless it's a cord connected model, in which case I can just put in a standard GFCI and safe off the wire that would feed a hardwired dishwasher.
LOL! A 15A circuit for a microwave is just plain being cheap. You know the owners will eventually change out the original micro for a higher watt one.
I love that some states stand up against overly stringent new codes. It sends a message.
@SparkyChannel the original argument for AFCI tech qas to prevent fires from damaged electric blankets. Now I'm seeing maxed out circuits, because electricians are trying to get away with one less breaker.
I can understand that because the breakers are so expensive now.@@kenbrown2808
Great info on the 2023 Code changes & requirements!
However, it is worth noting that:
Electrical device manufacturers (e.g. Leviton, Siemens, Schnieder/Sq-D, et.al.) all have VERY heavy input and influence into the NFPA-70's Code-making panels. Therefore it should come as no surprise that these companies would push the much more expensive devices to be "required" nearly everywhere. After all, if you can sell circuit breakers that cost $70 - instead of one's that cost $7 - which would you rather be trying to sell? (And it's doubtful they cost 10-times as much to manufacturer).
Just follow the money...
For some appliances - like a dishwasher or sink disposal - a GFCI recep' is not always easy enough to access in the event of a trip. Therefore, a GFCI-type breaker must be used... at 10-times the cost.
While GFCI's have been around quite awhile, and have become pretty reliable, AFCI's have not. The technology is still fairly fresh, and they still suffer from nuisance tripping - usually without any notable cause. They are also very sensitive to utility line surges (such as lightning) which can damage the circuitry and will cause them to nuisance trip even more.
I recently removed four such devices from my own residence - which all began randomly tripping following a thunder storm event in my area (a very common occurance here in my area of west Texas. We did not suffer any outage during the storm). Once the defective AFCI breakers were replaced... no more nuisance tripping (they were relpaced with standard breakers).
I have heard of electricians who will install the required AFCI breakers in a new construction house, simply to pass inspection, then will remove & replace them with standard breakers afterwards, just to eliminate endless trouble-calls from the new homeowner.
While the protection idea is wonderful, the reliability of the equipment designs and technology hasn't quite caught-up...
First of all, let me say that you have a wonderful ability to write effectively while also getting your points across. Well done on that. Also, I agree with everything you mentioned except for swapping out required AFCI's for standard breakers.
For my 2 cents, I think that whoever included sump pumps in this never owned a sump pump. Thanks!
Sparky, can you do a video on concentric and eccentric knock outs and which needs a ground bushing?
Yes, I have one coming out tomorrow AM. Check it out. Good suggestion.
Kick ass
Thanks Dave!
Above the range microwaves or range hoods require a dedicated circuit. Must be GFCI protected if within 6 feet of a sink, or if 2023 code is in effect. Here in Florida we're on the 2020 code until 2026.
Right on, thanks!
Electric ranges and wall mounted ovens usually need more than 150V, so they will rarely if ever need GFCI protection.
It says 150v to ground. In the US, 240v circuits are typically 120 to ground on each leg.
@@TomCee53 - if that’s the case, those will be VERY expensive GFCI devices, to protect from the unlikeliest of faults.
Ranges already required so what are you talking about?
Ever seen a ground rod installed underneath a house ? I have never seen that, this was a first and I've been under a ton of homes.
No, I've never seen that. Perhaps they installed the ground rod, then built the house?
I've done a couple on remodels. where they had the floor opened, and it was easier than routing the new GEC outside.
ive got a light with a ballast that instantly trips gfci outlets
its odd
If you have already you might want to replace the ballast. My guess is that the ballast is allowing a small amount of current to leak from the neutral to the ground wire.
@@everythinghomerepair1747 ah it was a restore find, there's gotta be some sorta super janky fix for it
It's also an electronic ballast which I haven't had the best results with, they all make my speakers hum which is weird because my amplifier is 2 wire. One electronic ballast I have has an extremely weird flaw, it works as normal for a while then randomly it starts a pulsating 60hz buzz very loudly through my speakers. It has fans but they are missing blades and don't spin. I do not use that ballast anymore.
Cost of a gfci breaker $60, gfci receptacle, $20.
Nec.....approved thinner insulation on wire to save on production cost....
Wait a second... No Fridge or Washing Machine on that list?
Yeah, I think those will be on another video. It's getting rather confusing, isn't it?
210.8(A)(6) required in Dwelling Units Kitchen's (if a fridge in the kitchen, it needs GFCI
210.8(A)(11) required in Dwelling Units Laundry areas. (Phrased so no matter what area the Laundry machines are installed in, they are required GFCI.).
so obviously a 220 volt 30 amp electric clothes dryer does not need a gfci , but does it need afci ?
All 120-250 volt receptacles in the laundry areas require GFCI. Washer and dryer. 210.8 AFCI is only required for the 120-volt laundry outlets. 210.12
been having issues with dryer gfi's had the inspector out and he said put in a regular breaker , some applications just aint workin right @@JeffBanfield-t6v
In that case what probably happened was that the equipment installer bonded the ground and neutral inside the machine out of habit. This is the configuration for a regular breaker, for GFCI they must be separate. You should be able to open up the back, remove the jumper and it should solve your issue.@@DeltaCo7175
@@sayfullahdclxvi5773no that jumper should be removed either way
@@coreyfranco7060 In older homes with three prong, I would leave it on. Otherwise I completely agree.
I will worry about it if and when I replace my microwave !
Sounds good!
Wtf is a GFCI?
Is it a RCD (residual current device, trips on earth leakage).
In Australia, all circuits, other than feeds to subboards, must be on RCD.
Going to be a hard no for me
Thanks Don!
My understanding is it needs to be an easily accessible outlet near water, outside, or in an unfinished are to require GFCI.
a single outlet behind a refrigerator in a cove shouldn't.
The wall outlets in my garage are GFCI protected, but the ceiling outlets for the garage door openers are not
When the receptacle is not going to be accessible use a GFCI circuit breaker