I always appreciate your effort during spoiler season; It's great seeing suggestions and an outline for a deck, with a budget at that, around new cards rather than simply reading the card
I call em "boomerang" effects, I have a bunch in my Braids deck. Malakir Rebirth, Undying Malice, Minion's Return, Feign Death, Persist, Kaya's Ghostform. If I'm missing some you know of, let me know!
@@BigDrew49 the undying malice/feign death doesn't really work because it would be cast off a death trigger however a reanimate spell would just pull it back into play
@@dantemalick2872 I'm talking you cast them from hand in response, not top of library as a result of the trigger. That way he comes right back to the battlefield with a fresh etb
@@BigDrew49 Actually, I think you can cast the first boomerang, sac him to Altar, stack the triggers so that the boomerang brings him back putting the 2nd boomerang on top and resolving the free cast. Then sac him again and repeat
@@christianacquasanta1472 yup that's what I was getting at. Otherwise my way, I think it's stacking the library 2x when you only get one freebie. Your way, there'd be 2
I like how they went with the top-deck stuff for Hidetsugu to reference the one from Neon Dynasty and not the original, but another half-life effect would have also been cool. Also kind of sad that they didn’t do anything with the dragon other than brainstorm with flying. Also, could have done this with Yuriko.
Real quick, I'm pretty sure the clone triggers would resolve in the wrong order. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as it enters the ETB triggers, and then SBA's are checked. Then, when the clone dies, you get the death trigger. But at this point, the death trigger would resolve first, and then you would draw and replace the top card.
This is correct and a lot of people are looking right over this. So if you're building it as a clone deck, just think of it as happening in reverse order and trying to set up the top card before you play your clone.
@@matthewlevi600 Sorry to keep harping on this, guys. I want to make sure because I'm new and want to try building a deck for this commander. I read from rule 117.5 which said "Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, “State-Based Actions”), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities”). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so." And 603.3 which said "603.3 Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. ..." This is what let me to my earlier conclusion but if that's not correct, that's OK. edited: I think I referred to the wrong rule.
Note the crackling counterpart doesn't let you sting the cards together. Since the death trigger will happen before the etb (because legend rule) you don't get to brainstorm first. Still has the possibility to but can't manipulate it.
I was just about to mention this. Technically you can "chain" them after the first clone, as you set up for the next cast. He mentioneds Rite of Rep kicked later in the video, but it will just give you 5 die triggers followed by 5 brainstorms. What a magical chrismas land it would be if we could stack them how we want though.
No, triggers don’t get put on the stack until after SBAs (state based actions) are checked. SBA will make you “sac” one of the legends which will create a death trigger that’s also waiting to be put on the stack. When no more SBAs need to be performed, you put all waiting triggers on the stack in any order you choose. So if you kick a Rite of Replication, you’ll end up with 5 ETB triggers and 5 death triggers that you can stack however you want.
Nope, look up Sharum the hegamon combo with clones. Legend rule resolves before targets are picked, which is why you can target Sharum in your graveyard.
@@ethan5837 Sure! You will need a sac outlet (Ashnod's Altar), this card (H & K) and one of those creatures I mentioned who can put a spell back on top of your library or into your hand (Meldweb Curator). 1. Sac your creatures to the Ashnod's Altar, H & K last. 2. Cast a Mass Reanimate Spell (Twilight's Call). 3. Meldweb and H & K trigger. Stack triggers so Meldweb put Mass Animate Spell back on library before H & K trigger. Put Twilight's Call back on top of your library. 4. Repeat step 1. With Ashnod's Altar, you have infinite colorless mana and card draw with H & K.
Or clone legion + any creature that gets you back an instant or sorcery to your hand or on top of library etb. Don't need a sac outlet with legend rule.
In regards to cloning you can't clone the commander that's died since it wouldn't be a valid target anymore if it the only commander you had left when it died (so not a clone of the commander that died). So it is important to watch out for that during play, especially with cards like Clone legion where you want the card to activate in response to the death trigger of the commander, as you want the 9 health loss to target opponent effect. On top of the regular cloning effect
Probably one of the coolest looking cards in the set for edh, caring about topdeck manipulation + instants and sorceries theme sounds like a fun deck to make, combo city for sure lol.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like you said for copies like with cackling counterpart. The etb goes on the stack, but state base effect kills one of the legendary permanent, than the death triggers goes on the stack. So, if I'm not mistaken, the death triggers resolve before the etb brainstorm effect.
RE: Rule 117.5 Am I understanding this right? When you make a Copy of Hidetsugu and Kairi and the copy enters the battlefield, the legendary rule, as state-based action, will check and force you to keep only one Hidetsugu and Kairi BEFORE the copy's ETB trigger is put on the stack. If this is true then the ETB and death trigger would be put on the stack at the same time and you can choose which of the trigger resolve first, right?
This is my understanding of how it works. It's similar to using RoR on Reaper King, except with the addition of the dies triggers. But because they "die" to the legend rule before the triggers go on the stack, you can then interlace them to resolve the way you would want with a brainstorm then top card, 5 times.
This is a hilariously good creature because it makes your opponent scared to kill it. Even if you're at 14 life there's always the possibility of hidetsugu's second rite on top. Honestly, I'd play it as is just for the fear factor.
Hidetsugu and Kairi + Poppet Stitcher + Blade of shared Souls. Copy the commander, brainstorm, it die, do some damage and cast a free spell, make a zomboi, pay 2 and do it again.
Wizards of the Coast: Well.. we just really didn't know what to call these cards. Team Ups, Mash Ups... yet just we really don't have a term for it. Me: The hell you don't Wizards of the Coast! You call them Allies.
@@mofomiko They work better as 99 than commander, they only target one opponent but still set up better for Yuriko trigger. I know its a "casual" format but Yuriko does what they want to do but better and faster.
@@mofomiko But the game plan is nearly identical, you're just less likely to see success. I can understand if you want to build a commander with a unique approach but, this isn't unique just diet Yuriko.
@@mofomiko I know you didn't, I told you. Its the same game plan but worse. Its not more interesting or quirky, just a less efficient version of what is essentially the same deck. If your pod is tired of Yuriko... sure, but its not making a case for not just building a different deck all together.
Make sure you check out my recent episode on the 10th Sword! Sword of Once and Future! th-cam.com/video/H_ozKSVBeYM/w-d-xo.html
I always appreciate your effort during spoiler season; It's great seeing suggestions and an outline for a deck, with a budget at that, around new cards rather than simply reading the card
Putting this under a mimic vat is going to be amazing value.
Better to do a clone creature so you don't lose your commander forever if it gets destroyed.
10/10 im building this and put all the black "bring target creature in your graveyard to the battlefield" instant/sorceries as I can into it
I call em "boomerang" effects, I have a bunch in my Braids deck. Malakir Rebirth, Undying Malice, Minion's Return, Feign Death, Persist, Kaya's Ghostform. If I'm missing some you know of, let me know!
@@BigDrew49 the undying malice/feign death doesn't really work because it would be cast off a death trigger however a reanimate spell would just pull it back into play
@@dantemalick2872 I'm talking you cast them from hand in response, not top of library as a result of the trigger. That way he comes right back to the battlefield with a fresh etb
@@BigDrew49 Actually, I think you can cast the first boomerang, sac him to Altar, stack the triggers so that the boomerang brings him back putting the 2nd boomerang on top and resolving the free cast.
Then sac him again and repeat
@@christianacquasanta1472 yup that's what I was getting at. Otherwise my way, I think it's stacking the library 2x when you only get one freebie. Your way, there'd be 2
Rise of the dark realms for 9 damage, and all creatures from all graveyards is crazy
my fav so far is prob the zurgo and ojitai card. some real tarkir vibes
A very cool card! Hoping to get to that one too!
I like how they went with the top-deck stuff for Hidetsugu to reference the one from Neon Dynasty and not the original, but another half-life effect would have also been cool. Also kind of sad that they didn’t do anything with the dragon other than brainstorm with flying. Also, could have done this with Yuriko.
So this goes in my Belakor deck AND my Kess Dragons Approach deck....fantastic!
Creatures like Archmage Emeritus, Deekah Fractal Theorist, Jin Gitaxias Progress Tyrant and Talrand Sky summoner go hard in this deck.
I have to disagree completely about Deekah and Talrand because Hidetsugu and kairi do not care at all about having random tokens lying around
Real quick, I'm pretty sure the clone triggers would resolve in the wrong order. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as it enters the ETB triggers, and then SBA's are checked. Then, when the clone dies, you get the death trigger. But at this point, the death trigger would resolve first, and then you would draw and replace the top card.
This is correct and a lot of people are looking right over this. So if you're building it as a clone deck, just think of it as happening in reverse order and trying to set up the top card before you play your clone.
Isn't the SBA suppose to happen before the ETB trigger is put on the stack? Am I misunderstanding this?
@@JohnyTheGoat Nope, state based actions are not done until a player would receive priority. Think of SBA as an upkeep to receiving priority.
@@JohnyTheGoat No. When an object enters the battlefield, any triggers are placed on the stack before SBA's are checked.
@@matthewlevi600 Sorry to keep harping on this, guys. I want to make sure because I'm new and want to try building a deck for this commander.
I read from rule 117.5 which said "Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, “State-Based Actions”), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities”). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so." And 603.3 which said "603.3 Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. ..." This is what let me to my earlier conclusion but if that's not correct, that's OK.
edited: I think I referred to the wrong rule.
Note the crackling counterpart doesn't let you sting the cards together. Since the death trigger will happen before the etb (because legend rule) you don't get to brainstorm first. Still has the possibility to but can't manipulate it.
I was just about to mention this. Technically you can "chain" them after the first clone, as you set up for the next cast. He mentioneds Rite of Rep kicked later in the video, but it will just give you 5 die triggers followed by 5 brainstorms. What a magical chrismas land it would be if we could stack them how we want though.
Oh thanks for saying this, I wasn't sure if it would both be on the stack or separate instances
No, triggers don’t get put on the stack until after SBAs (state based actions) are checked. SBA will make you “sac” one of the legends which will create a death trigger that’s also waiting to be put on the stack. When no more SBAs need to be performed, you put all waiting triggers on the stack in any order you choose.
So if you kick a Rite of Replication, you’ll end up with 5 ETB triggers and 5 death triggers that you can stack however you want.
Nope, look up Sharum the hegamon combo with clones. Legend rule resolves before targets are picked, which is why you can target Sharum in your graveyard.
Damn, your quick on the draw with these spoilers!
Goes infinite if you have a sac outlet and a way to put your mass reanimate spell back on top (Meldweb Curator or Biblioplex Assistant).
Can you explain how it would go infinite to me please because I really want to know for when I build a deck for this commander?
@@ethan5837 Sure! You will need a sac outlet (Ashnod's Altar), this card (H & K) and one of those creatures I mentioned who can put a spell back on top of your library or into your hand (Meldweb Curator).
1. Sac your creatures to the Ashnod's Altar, H & K last.
2. Cast a Mass Reanimate Spell (Twilight's Call).
3. Meldweb and H & K trigger. Stack triggers so Meldweb put Mass Animate Spell back on library before H & K trigger. Put Twilight's Call back on top of your library.
4. Repeat step 1. With Ashnod's Altar, you have infinite colorless mana and card draw with H & K.
@@ConsoleCleric thank you so much, I am definitely going to use this combo in my deck!
Or clone legion + any creature that gets you back an instant or sorcery to your hand or on top of library etb. Don't need a sac outlet with legend rule.
First up it's wayfarers bauble did I do it right ?
That you did!
Why no Rex and Myra from the Intergalactic Astrotorium of Fun? Or a battleground for the location?
Might just make a decklist from all the suggestions here LOL
In regards to cloning you can't clone the commander that's died since it wouldn't be a valid target anymore if it the only commander you had left when it died (so not a clone of the commander that died). So it is important to watch out for that during play, especially with cards like Clone legion where you want the card to activate in response to the death trigger of the commander, as you want the 9 health loss to target opponent effect. On top of the regular cloning effect
Or keep the original alive and clone it, the legendary rule removes the token leaving the etb and ltb for the token
Grozoth would be insane... grabbing all those sweet sweet 9cmc sorceries
Probably one of the coolest looking cards in the set for edh, caring about topdeck manipulation + instants and sorceries theme sounds like a fun deck to make, combo city for sure lol.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like you said for copies like with cackling counterpart. The etb goes on the stack, but state base effect kills one of the legendary permanent, than the death triggers goes on the stack. So, if I'm not mistaken, the death triggers resolve before the etb brainstorm effect.
No, active player gets to stack triggers
RE: Rule 117.5 Am I understanding this right? When you make a Copy of Hidetsugu and Kairi and the copy enters the battlefield, the legendary rule, as state-based action, will check and force you to keep only one Hidetsugu and Kairi BEFORE the copy's ETB trigger is put on the stack. If this is true then the ETB and death trigger would be put on the stack at the same time and you can choose which of the trigger resolve first, right?
This is my understanding of how it works. It's similar to using RoR on Reaper King, except with the addition of the dies triggers. But because they "die" to the legend rule before the triggers go on the stack, you can then interlace them to resolve the way you would want with a brainstorm then top card, 5 times.
The fact that you can run bolas cit and thought lash in here is pretty nice.
This is going straight into the 99 of my Yennet Deck
This is such an amazing card of two amazing characters! I need this!
I'm that player that kind of stays away from Blue. But I might have found gateway Commander to start playing blue/dimir zombies
This is a hilariously good creature because it makes your opponent scared to kill it. Even if you're at 14 life there's always the possibility of hidetsugu's second rite on top. Honestly, I'd play it as is just for the fear factor.
Hidetsugu's second rite is red, but I get what you mean.
I have a Kairi deck. I might have to switch it over to Dimir and use this commander
Soothsaying could be a good way to manipulate the top of your deck, and I doubt it's a very expensive card to buy.
Just thinking about Mitch's Keiga-deck but w this Commander.... 🤤
This is basically like Yuriko’s gimmick but better
As the casted instant or sorcery is not a copy, would it not go to the graveyard after being cast from exile?
Bro kairi is prob my fav creature in the game! Glad to see him get more rep
I’m putting this in my Satoru Umezawa deck!!
Obvious budget breaking includes for this commander include sensei's divining top, scroll rack, mystic tutor, and vargoth bloody sky
Hidetsugu and Kairi + Poppet Stitcher + Blade of shared Souls. Copy the commander, brainstorm, it die, do some damage and cast a free spell, make a zomboi, pay 2 and do it again.
Wish this card was also red so you could include the Hidetsugu from Neon Dynasty
There's so much here my Runo Stormkirk deck would love out of this, if only it cost 1 more mana!
Changing Gyruda clone tribal to this for sure
Why not both. They are completely different decks
@@OGTahoe3 no? Both use delve cards and clones. Pretty easy switch over
HK death trigger into Brainstorm, stacking Enter The Infinite on too. Who says no?
Holy shit, flash is back in the meta
Indeed it is!
Compleated Heliod: My work here is done
Since the card is in exile before you cast it, then you cast it, doesn't it go into the graveyard? It doesn't say "Cast card then exile it"
yes
Use polymorph spells with the only other creature being grozoth in the deck the grozoth comes in and fetches all 9cmc sorceries
Why no red?
Your updates are hella fast :D
Mimic Vat my beloved
This make a insane spell slinger!!!!!
not on budget but Rise of the Dark Realms with a sac outlet and Archaeomancer in graveyard is a game ending loop
Wizards of the Coast: Well.. we just really didn't know what to call these cards. Team Ups, Mash Ups... yet just we really don't have a term for it. Me: The hell you don't Wizards of the Coast! You call them Allies.
Extra turn spells. Conjurers closet. That is all
saw in half
Would only get the death trigger d/t legend rule. Still good though.
@@michaelearthur93 1Death, 2Etb, 1Death
very obviously a 99 card for Yuriko
@@mofomiko They work better as 99 than commander, they only target one opponent but still set up better for Yuriko trigger. I know its a "casual" format but Yuriko does what they want to do but better and faster.
@@mofomiko But the game plan is nearly identical, you're just less likely to see success. I can understand if you want to build a commander with a unique approach but, this isn't unique just diet Yuriko.
@@mofomiko I know you didn't, I told you. Its the same game plan but worse. Its not more interesting or quirky, just a less efficient version of what is essentially the same deck. If your pod is tired of Yuriko... sure, but its not making a case for not just building a different deck all together.
The only type my commander cares about is the dragon 😁 so I'll take more derg creature combinations
A full reanimator deck, get a sac outlet and keep spaming the sac, reborn, repeat while you make them lose life
If this was “Yuriko and Jeleva” it would make more sense - mind you 0 complaints from me
If you clone him and sack the clone you can just keep taking extra turns lol
If you cast it from exile, won't it go into your graveyard?
for as cheap as blade of shared souls 2 equip cost and a creature.
So we not gonna talk lore between Kairi and Hidetsugu?
this doesnt feel like dimir lol
Interesting way for a deck, but I think it will run out of fun for you and the other players. Its just always the same.
If you do cast an instant or sorcery from exile it will still go to your graveyard afterwards
They just spoiled fiery emancipation but with convoke 😂
Mitch looks like he got in a fight with a guy smaller than him that didn't give him a choice
Anyone making this commander with clone spells needs to keep in mind that the clone spell will cause the death trigger to resolve before the etb
No active player gets to stack triggers if they control it because it happens at the same time. So you can stack however you want
Top deck blasphemous act and win the game
I really don't like these combo cards. Just go back to the "partner with" mechanic.
I’m surprised it’s a dimir not grixis considering hidetsugu in original was rakdos