Sage advice from the master! I have an example from a different world-my 2013 Road Glide with a 103 made around 85 ft-lbs and a bit over 70 hp at the wheel stock. With a 222 intake cam that closes at 34 degrees ABDC, but has .555 lift instead of the factory .470-something lift, makes 104 ft-lbs and 93 hp at the wheel. A longer duration cam could increase the hp number substantially, but I wouldn’t have that 100 ft-lbs at 2500 that makes it so fun to ride on the street. I also put a lean spot in the AFR at cruise rpm and MAP that got me 50+ mpg on half my fill-ups on a 4100 mile ride last summer. Others advised me even the “little” cams would destroy gas mileage, but it’s actually better than stock. Matching the intake closing (IC) and overlap to the engine and application is critical. If your cylinder heads allow, use as much lift as you can and optimize the compression ratio to get as much mid-range torque as possible. You will be much happier on the street! Richard’s advice works on every engine!
Richard, you are hitting on all cylinder as usual. I think most of your viewers are street/strip guys and really needed to hear and understand this. That low end torque, below 3000 is were most people drive at. Special on the highway, going to the track or moving around town. That low end torque, is what gets off the line and spools up the turbo for the win at the top end!
Richard this is an awesome one All your stuff is good but this is good talks about us daily drivers that like a little bit extra more come Friday night.
Love these videos 👌🏽 I'm a younger guy trying to learn all I can for my first turbo 5.3 truck build. Nobody else has given real world testing and comparisons like this that I've found. Keep em coming!
You hit it like a hammer to the face! WE ALL are that guy trying to ONE UP what we know costs us down low! You are spot on... WE ALSO KNOW OUR DRIVE FOR SPEED also we go 388ci, 427ci, etc.. EVENTUALLY if you have that drive... YOU SHORTEN THE LEARNING CURVE.... AND WORK HARDER! Thanks Richard... you hit some of us where we live and work... we all come around.... some sooner than others...SO TAKE THE EXPERIENCE OF OTHERS, and Make it work for YOU!. KUDO'S BROTHER!!! Seth
I'm glad to see you starting to address the nuances like low end torque and spool up. This should please a few of us who have commented about low end torque in the past. I hope you don't lose the drag racers and the peak HP junkies. Is it even possible to thoroughly evaluate spool up starting from low engine loads and speeds on that dyno?
Based on this video I chose a "Stage 1" turbo cam, 222/227 and around .600" lift. 5.3 with 7875 turbo. Going to use a "long runner" manifold too. Thank you for talking sense into us. U DA MAN Richard!
You're throwing a lot of questions out there that so many of us want real-world answers too. My background in racing and mathematics is extensive, but communicating real-world scenarios really helps us latch on to answers, many didn't know where to go for answers. Richard, knowing you are spending time in the dyno cell researching all these "tribulations" of going turbo is turning you into the Southland Swami ...or the OG of the Turbo Motor! Keep this channel growing. You've tapped into a subject that has intrigue and growing environmental awareness,...not just performance.
Sound advise. Personally I like a lot of lift, moderate duration, and a tight LSA. This usually produces a quick revving engine with a reasonably tight power band, and just a pleasingly noticeable cadence at idle. If you need more power, get a bigger engine or more turbo. No need to turn a street engine past 6,000 rpm.
Love the k5 I had one back when gas was 1.25 gal for 93. It had a 355 with edelbrock rpm heads and a 218@50 .450" cam. It had plenty of low end to move the truck well
This video explains why i went with a more mild cam on my street/track build. I didn't want my low end power to be lost because it isn't practical to be revving 7.5k all the time. I also don't want to lose my off the line torque.
Hey Richard, could you do a comparison of the Summit Pro LS cams? The Pro 4 cam the other day looked really promising but would love to see the difference between them.
I had this argument with a buddy of mine. I had a brand new 2009 corolla 1.8l 5 speed. If you tried to lug the engine under 2000rpm it would audibly knock, dump fuel in (afr would fall to less than 10:1) and all forward progress would stop. The claim made by Toyota was peak power at 6000rpm and fuel cut was 6750. I took the factory intake off to measure the runner size, and found the factory cam specs and it was never hitting 300'/sec flow velocity per runner. I tried for a week after resetting the factory ecu with ethanol free 94 octane and it would still knock, and that was crazy to me the factory spark map was so aggressive. A buddy of mine had a flywieght aircraft and I bought 5 gallons of unleaded 100, that still didn't stop the knock. I didn't want to take it back to Toyota to complain because it made heal/toe downshifting impossible after their safety issues. My point is the car would be faster with 20hp less at 6000rpm if it had 10ft lbs more at 3000rpm.
Definitely needs a driver mod...trying to hot-rod around at 2k RPM in a 1.8 Toyota is one of the most foolish things I’ve heard. In an N/A 4-banger, rpm and momentum are your friends.
I've been following you for a while. Hell, I'm the guy that made the "wrong cam" avatar of you lol! Anyway,. I gotta say, this is one of the best videos you've done in a while, in terms of plain speak common sense. I see so many people in this millennial era still doing the "bottom of the page" cam selections, then wanting to know what turbo to pick to give them the least lag. In the age of information I'd have thought people would be doing their research and making educated choices. But nope... they're doing the modern day equivalent of picking that 292 or 305 cam from the bottom of the summit catalog page for their gen 1 350 with a performer intake and carb, hedman headers and stock converter. we're all guilty of that. We did that stuff in the 70s and 80s...fell for the |3/4 race cam" propaganda, and so on. I thought we'd be better by now. But while some of us older folks have evolved... the few millennials that are actually into cars instead of video games and man buns haven't learned. Like you said... if stage 1 is good, stage 4 must be the best, right?
@@michaelangelo8001 That's not kind. I should have worded it differently myself. Thanks Richard, some of us have manual transmissions as well and although that's nowhere close to peak power, it is a place where my engine consistently lives.
Richard, Sorry to be ignorant, but what is your story? We all know you work or worked at West Tech and we have seen you a few times on Engine Masters HRTV. I just think it would be cool to hear a bit more about your background and story at West Tech.
Tyler Ireland Check out his video where he tests stage 1, 2, & 3 cams in a 5.3 and 6L. It says a lot about how much the bigger cams move the power curve up in the rpm
In the big LS cam test a few years ago, I thought the Crane 210/218 was the most impressive by far, losing virtually no torque down low but offering +90 up top to the factory cams. I would think recreating it with more modern lobes like Comp LSL 211/219 would be just that much better.
Did a stage 2 tsp truck cam in my pre Corona virus 07 avalanche build and im glad i did. Got a bug out truck now in case shit really hits the fan hehe... for 150 miles before i run out of gas at least but lol 🤣 but man oh man is it is fun as hell to drive and offroad with vs stock. 2007 avalanche 4x4 z71 NA gen 4 LC9 5.3l to 383 forged stroker conversion kit with 1800-2100 stall, 6" lift kit, custom fitted rough country 2.5 vertex 8 stage adjustable shocks, 4.88 gears and 37" mt toyos. One day it will see boost after its all caged up but thats only once im ready to die doing something crazy awesome lol
Im doing a blow thru 5.3 with Pro Ls Pistons and rods with a Eagle 1500hp crank. Stage 4 Texas Speed Turbo Cam with a 94MM Billet wheel , 11;1 compression
Great video . And information. Other things to defanitly do. (Larger Ring Gap ) and stiffer intake valve springs. If planning higher boost pressure. The ring gap is also important for nitrous shots bigger than 100 shot.. and the $150.00 - $200 it cost for wideband oxygen sensor +gauge and wire harness. Is a good addition. To know for sure your getting a good AF ratio. .
Doing good work 👍. This is something we should all know. I remember zippy (zippy performance) doing cam testing back in the mid 2000s with Silverado SS’s. The smaller cams whooped the bigger stuff with the same converter due to loss of TQ. The weight of the trucks exacerbated this issue and really proved a point. Once your TQ down low starts to die, stop there! That’s big enough. Try telling that to a customer though 😔
Man I’m really glad you put this video out! I’m building a twin turbo (eBay gt45’s) 4.8L for a burnout competition truck and been racking my brain on cam’s from stock to as big as it gets! Now you got me really thinking about leaving the stock cam in it or a very mild cam!
Damn i was thinking of a truck norris cam cause i like the chop with the 78/75turbo but now you gotme thinking of going with the stage 1 cam and that same turbo on my lm7 5.3 i race 8th of a mile offroad
Here's the thing, in my 01 Durango Rt, it has a 5.9 magnum, and i put edelbrock as cast heads on it. It is so torquey, it launches off the line hard, and by 3500 its done and wont pull. Im not worried at all about losing low end torque, and I would really like to have good power at 5500.
@@richardholdener1727 well yeah I need a better cam. The heads are irrelevant to my point, I'm trying to make an argument for why I might want to go for a stage 2 cam over a stage 1.
If you ever come to the Sipp the drinks are on me bro. I greatly appreciate all of your efforts. Your delivery makes education entertaining. Thank you and keep it up. Cheers
I want to put a lsa blower on my wifes 2013 Suburban. I've already deleted the dod.... it runs great it's got a little over 90k miles on it. It's the LC9 I would really love to see like 7-8 of boost with a supercharger and utilizing the variable valve timing. I'm not looking for crazy power. I really don't think I need a cam.. maybe some shorty headers and some better cats or no cats. I would be totally happy if it made 450hp and 450tq. But I'd love to see that Torque from like 2-5k rpm.
Thank you for that one, I just had that question after your last video. I might shift to a BTR Stage 1 instead of stage 2 Truck cam for my LQ9 in preparing for a turbo build. Now I just need to figure out what turbo to use. Perhaps BW S472 76/100 comp with 80mm turbine at 0.83-.91 A/R. Looking for something that spools early and gives me loads of torque. Turning 46" tires at 2 psi in snow takes a lot of power.
This is exactly what I've been struggling with on my combo. Very N/A style tight lsa moderate cam at the moment and debating going to something else over the Winter while everything gets freshened. That and heads. BBF setup with twins. I've thought about even going with a marine style cam designed for low end grunt. Custom cam guys keep wanting to go bigger but I'm trying to keep it from getting too wild N/A before boost hits it.
You should test a texas speed chopmonster in a 6.0 with a turbo to get around 700-800 hp so we can see what a cam with the awesome sound makes and losses over a normal turbo cam.
Richard, this is excellent information! I learned a ton. Thank you. Could you explain to us the differences in cams for turbo, positive displacement supercharger, and centrifugal superchargers? Are supercharger cams designed for positive displacement more so than centrifugal? Thanks for all you do. I am in awe of the sheer number of videos you are able to produce.
SBE setups can benefit from the larger cam or live longer due to reduced cyl pressures, cant they? Higher boost pressue=more heat. Less boost pressure at the same output should be a good thing.
Another thing that’s not talked about enough, especially with daily driven turbo applications, is that 1000hp on a 2 wheel driven car or truck is practically pointless. Tire technology is the limiting factor at anything much past 600 or 700whp on an unprepared surface everytime. I’ve been rocking the Summit Stg 1 cam on my turbo 5.3 m6 for 5 years now. Couldn’t be happier.
You cant always equate bottom end and part throttle. You can have a cam that makes good torque on the bottom end but it’s a dog at idle and part throttle. With good exhaust tuning at WOT a fair amount of overlap gains torque even as low as 2500rpm assuming the other two valve events EVO and ICL are not out to lunch. This doesn’t in any way mean it works well at part throttle. The place you see this is on variable cam timing engines where at the bottom end the part throttle and WOT exhaust valve timing tune are wildly different. Similalrly a cam that looses a bunch of torque at bottom end at WOT can drive great part throttle. there is no correlation
Exactly, it's all about the resonance in the intake track. At WOT it could be awesome and you make a good amount of torque, with the throttle at only 15% open it could completely screw it all up and its a dog. The while system comes into play including exhaust type and length.
I agree with alot of what you say, however trying to make more torque down low combined with the weight of truck will make a ton of cylinder pressure. If your going through the trouble of swapping cams and turbo setup, why not have a stage 2 with a 3500 stall and 2 step off the line. Unless you plan to tow in which case a stock cam with springs and appropriate size turbo should do
I have to agree 95% of na power + boost mods = more max power. Of course like you pointed out how a stage 2 or more cam can hurt your spool up by making less low rpm power. . = less low rpm exhaust gasses to spool the turbo . (Valve overlap in the higher stage cams is the culprit) . Also higher compression piston and or higher comp head will make more power NA. And can help spool up turbo quickly. However under strong boost lower compression piston and or head will allow the turbo to pack in more air and fuel making more maximum power. . .
Hey Richard. Can you please do pulls from 2000. I realize that most cars and trucks will never be wot at 2k, but seeing torque curve at lower rpm's might reveal a lot about na driveability and potentially turbo spool. It may help a lot of us in choosing a cam. Also, a comparison of different lsa's for those of us that love a rowdy idle. Thanks, and as always keep up the great work. (2 dislikes from people with buyers remorse from buying stage 4...)
First of all Richard I want to say your Channel is absolutely brilliant! I watch your videos every time they come out so kudos to you and your team! Question: does the philosophy with the turbo cam apply to a PDS? I understand that a turbo needs to be spooled up quicker hence the smaller cam but when you take a stock supercharger like the one in my Hellcat and spin it faster wouldn't that mean that with the increased bottom end torque you might want to put that higher stage/bigger cam in to decrease some of that bottom end torque and put it up top? Am I thinking correctly?
For not breaking the bottom end, yes There is a specific size of cam for a supercharger too as it either goes out of boost or makes hot air. Without being familiar with hellcat´s most often stock cams on modern cars are pretty well suited, going more than one step up is bordering screwing up in most cases
Thanks for the input. The stock cam has numbers of 215/221 @50 120.5 LSA. I was looking around 225-230/230-240@50 with 115-117 LSA. Close to stock lift. Below .600 anyway.
Great job Richard! I find most people these days over cam and under gear their trucks with stock verters and 30" + tall tires. If there is one thing the 4.8 needs is more gear even with a stock cam. Whether its na or boosted I the 4.8 needs at least a 4.10 gear to get that little motor in its happy place. My 4.8 has a 4.10 gear, 30" tall street tires and a 212/212 .560 112 even when it was na i beat up on trucks with bigger cams. It's been boosted for awhile now and my 4.8 spools my s475 quickly and carries the power thru rpm range
Most people that go with stage 2 or bigger cams generally go with lower gears so it makes the drop in low end a lot less noticeable. When I upgraded my 212/218 Silverado to a 224/224 cam I also lowered the rear gear low end loss wasn't noticeable
Now I understand why you told me my LS9 cam is gonna be laggy spooling a turbo on my gen4 flattop piston 5.3L with 706 heads!!! Can't wait to see the dyno numbers. Makes sense tho!
Would you be able to test the summit LS RV cam, I have this in my k20 with a manual sm465 and 4:10 gears the drivability is amazing in my opinion, I was worried this cam may had be to small but boy was I wrong it's great
That was great, had to move away from my Roku to my PC to write this comment :) Low RPM power drop gets even worse at lower throttle openings - that should be on every box with so called torque or Stage 1 cams. (why to buy them )
You totally talkd me out of going with a bigger cam. Question, if the bigger cam produces more horsepower in a, wouldn't it equate to More horsepower at a lower PSI with the same Turbo?
This makes me feel a little better. I have a 6.0L with a btr stage 2 turbo cam. Right now during the build I have a 78/75 but I'm leaning toward a s480. I was worried I may be on the small side for the cam. Right now I just have a set of decked 799s.
I’ve got the SS2 in my ls1 camaro and have a 5.3 in an el Camino was gonna go for the summit stage 2 turbo cam. Now You got me thinking I may drop it down.
You didn’t say a word about CHOP !! That’s IMPORTANT , to me 😜 , I need a NA , Nitrous , Turbo , Blower , decent fuel mileage , towing cam with CHOP ! LoL really that lopey choppy idle , I can’t live without it
Richard, great video full of info as always. I’m about to start putting my 6.0 Ls that is bored .030 over with forged pistons and rods together that will be used for drag racing. I plan to run a VS racing 88mm turbo. I also plan to run a long runner intake but have not decided on which heads to run yet. I of course went big and purchased a btr stage 4 v1 turbo cam. I believe I already know your answer but do you think that this cam will be able to spool this turbo or should I downsize?
Felt like u made this video specifically for me.. lol.. I had a question in your last video.. I guess the bigger question was what is the soul purpose of the vehicle. And u nailed it..
I'm putting a sloppy stage 2 in my forged 5.3 with ls1 823 heads and 6cc domed pistons. Hoping for 10.5:1. I can't wait to see some dyno numbers on this channel.
In my experience with 2.6 liter engine, 86 bore, 73.7 stroke, 8000 rpm redline, is the bigger the better for cam. We ran some big cams, small turbos, and the engine really seemed to like it. Almost like anti lag.
Hi Richard! lots of conflicting opinions on Rhoads lifters for large cams. We would love to see an unbiased dyno test on them. To good to be true? RPM potential? Do they really help low end?
Hi Richard. Great info, thanks. I would love to see a video on the difference a Variable Vane Turbo makes, if any. Maybe from a Dodge Cummins? And see if it can be done without a computer. By vacuum? Just a suggestion
Amazing advise. So, in regards to a mostly daily driver truck cam upgrade it’s refreshing to hear a recommend for smaller cam. And the fact that low end trq loss on big cams is accentuated by turbo makes it a no brainer. BUT, what about a twin screw? Some loss on the bottom from the cam surely would be covered up by the low rpm boost of the twin screw right? Or does the same phenomenon occur with a SC, that if u size the cam too big for that application you see an amplification of trq loss? Nah.. can’t be.
7875 huron kit but going on a 383 stroker LS1 forged bottom end. What cam for something with those cubes? Mostly street driven with trips to the quarter mile track planned. Its in a six speed f body. Thanks
I'm not building a race car (convertible) so I'm sorry to say I'm in it mostly for the chop. That said, I'd be interested in a test that pits a torque cam & large turbo against a big cam & smaller turbo, particularly at HP numbers that can be used with street tires.
if you are building a race car (as stated in the video), you won't use either of those combinations-you will pick a big turbo with a big cam and then add converter and gearing and 2-step as necessary
"The only thing better than a big cam is an even bigger cam" - Brian Tooley
Brian is the Man!
💪😈
Yeah. A sales man! Lol
Only thing better than a big cam is an even bigger turbo.
Bigger is always better!
Keyboard warriors heads just exploded again!!! I’m loving this daily content. It’s like when we were kids and Saturday morning cartoons would come on.
Sage advice from the master! I have an example from a different world-my 2013 Road Glide with a 103 made around 85 ft-lbs and a bit over 70 hp at the wheel stock. With a 222 intake cam that closes at 34 degrees ABDC, but has .555 lift instead of the factory .470-something lift, makes 104 ft-lbs and 93 hp at the wheel. A longer duration cam could increase the hp number substantially, but I wouldn’t have that 100 ft-lbs at 2500 that makes it so fun to ride on the street. I also put a lean spot in the AFR at cruise rpm and MAP that got me 50+ mpg on half my fill-ups on a 4100 mile ride last summer. Others advised me even the “little” cams would destroy gas mileage, but it’s actually better than stock. Matching the intake closing (IC) and overlap to the engine and application is critical. If your cylinder heads allow, use as much lift as you can and optimize the compression ratio to get as much mid-range torque as possible. You will be much happier on the street! Richard’s advice works on every engine!
this has to be the most important video you have made !! thanks !!
Richard, you are hitting on all cylinder as usual. I think most of your viewers are street/strip guys and really needed to hear and understand this. That low end torque, below 3000 is were most people drive at. Special on the highway, going to the track or moving around town. That low end torque, is what gets off the line and spools up the turbo for the win at the top end!
I’m too distracted by that sweet K5 next door....!
I'll take it... lol
Came here to say this! I have a 90 k5 and just bought an 89 big block suburban.
Lovely horse indeed
Looks like my 90 k5
Richard this is an awesome one All your stuff is good but this is good talks about us daily drivers that like a little bit extra more come Friday night.
Love these videos 👌🏽 I'm a younger guy trying to learn all I can for my first turbo 5.3 truck build. Nobody else has given real world testing and comparisons like this that I've found. Keep em coming!
Logan Worthington couldn’t agree more
This really makes me want to see a stage 1 vs stage 2 comparison on a 4.8 or 5.3
You hit it like a hammer to the face! WE ALL are that guy trying to ONE UP what we know costs us down low!
You are spot on... WE ALSO KNOW OUR DRIVE FOR SPEED also we go 388ci, 427ci, etc.. EVENTUALLY if you have that drive... YOU SHORTEN THE LEARNING CURVE.... AND WORK HARDER! Thanks Richard... you hit some of us where we live and work... we all come around.... some sooner than others...SO TAKE THE EXPERIENCE OF OTHERS, and Make it work for YOU!. KUDO'S BROTHER!!! Seth
Man that was awesome!! I have a 6.0 and a BTR stage 2. Cam contemplating going bigger. This set me straight and timing couldn’t be better!
I'm glad to see you starting to address the nuances like low end torque and spool up. This should please a few of us who have commented about low end torque in the past. I hope you don't lose the drag racers and the peak HP junkies. Is it even possible to thoroughly evaluate spool up starting from low engine loads and speeds on that dyno?
unfortunately the engine dyno isn't great at showing spool-starting to address?
Very useful information I think everyone gets wrong! I had no idea you could over due turbo cams for 5.3 ls applications. Thankyou Richard!
Glad to help!
Based on this video I chose a "Stage 1" turbo cam, 222/227 and around .600" lift. 5.3 with 7875 turbo. Going to use a "long runner" manifold too. Thank you for talking sense into us. U DA MAN Richard!
You're throwing a lot of questions out there that so many of us want real-world answers too. My background in racing and mathematics is extensive, but communicating real-world scenarios really helps us latch on to answers, many didn't know where to go for answers. Richard, knowing you are spending time in the dyno cell researching all these "tribulations" of going turbo is turning you into the Southland Swami ...or the OG of the Turbo Motor! Keep this channel growing. You've tapped into a subject that has intrigue and growing environmental awareness,...not just performance.
Sound advise.
Personally I like a lot of lift, moderate duration, and a tight LSA. This usually produces a quick revving engine with a reasonably tight power band, and just a pleasingly noticeable cadence at idle.
If you need more power, get a bigger engine or more turbo. No need to turn a street engine past 6,000 rpm.
Multi valve heads have made me take it a step further. You don't need much lift either.
Love the k5 I had one back when gas was 1.25 gal for 93. It had a 355 with edelbrock rpm heads and a 218@50 .450" cam. It had plenty of low end to move the truck well
Exactly what my brain needs to here with a couple combos I'm building. I was having cam envy and buyers remorse for picking the smaller cams. 💪💪👍
Did the smaller cam work i have a 5.3 that I want to cam and turbo
Same here I got a stage 2 pd cam. Was starting to want a stage 3.
This video explains why i went with a more mild cam on my street/track build. I didn't want my low end power to be lost because it isn't practical to be revving 7.5k all the time. I also don't want to lose my off the line torque.
Hey Richard, could you do a comparison of the Summit Pro LS cams? The Pro 4 cam the other day looked really promising but would love to see the difference between them.
I had this argument with a buddy of mine. I had a brand new 2009 corolla 1.8l 5 speed. If you tried to lug the engine under 2000rpm it would audibly knock, dump fuel in (afr would fall to less than 10:1) and all forward progress would stop. The claim made by Toyota was peak power at 6000rpm and fuel cut was 6750. I took the factory intake off to measure the runner size, and found the factory cam specs and it was never hitting 300'/sec flow velocity per runner. I tried for a week after resetting the factory ecu with ethanol free 94 octane and it would still knock, and that was crazy to me the factory spark map was so aggressive. A buddy of mine had a flywieght aircraft and I bought 5 gallons of unleaded 100, that still didn't stop the knock. I didn't want to take it back to Toyota to complain because it made heal/toe downshifting impossible after their safety issues. My point is the car would be faster with 20hp less at 6000rpm if it had 10ft lbs more at 3000rpm.
Definitely needs a driver mod...trying to hot-rod around at 2k RPM in a 1.8 Toyota is one of the most foolish things I’ve heard. In an N/A 4-banger, rpm and momentum are your friends.
I've been following you for a while. Hell, I'm the guy that made the "wrong cam" avatar of you lol!
Anyway,. I gotta say, this is one of the best videos you've done in a while, in terms of plain speak common sense. I see so many people in this millennial era still doing the "bottom of the page" cam selections, then wanting to know what turbo to pick to give them the least lag. In the age of information I'd have thought people would be doing their research and making educated choices. But nope... they're doing the modern day equivalent of picking that 292 or 305 cam from the bottom of the summit catalog page for their gen 1 350 with a performer intake and carb, hedman headers and stock converter.
we're all guilty of that. We did that stuff in the 70s and 80s...fell for the |3/4 race cam" propaganda, and so on.
I thought we'd be better by now. But while some of us older folks have evolved... the few millennials that are actually into cars instead of video games and man buns haven't learned.
Like you said... if stage 1 is good, stage 4 must be the best, right?
Unbelievable! You finally figured out why we want Dyno runs down at 1500 rpm even if we aren't WOT.
^this!
now it's 1500 WOT!
He has a thick skull, but it's finally starting to seep through to his brain.
@@michaelangelo8001 That's not kind. I should have worded it differently myself. Thanks Richard, some of us have manual transmissions as well and although that's nowhere close to peak power, it is a place where my engine consistently lives.
@@GreatLakesLogger Sorry Joe, I'm not a PC kind of kind of guy... But neither is Richard. He's a grown man, and I'm sure he can handle it.
it takes a real man to pick out the "perfect cam" and then go 1 smaller, i finally learned that!
Richard,
Sorry to be ignorant, but what is your story? We all know you work or worked at West Tech and we have seen you a few times on Engine Masters HRTV. I just think it would be cool to hear a bit more about your background and story at West Tech.
I dyno test at Westech-have done so for over 20 years
@@richardholdener1727 A Company Man, good for you bud. Your videos make bad ass ls engine building way easier for me so thank you
@@richardholdener1727 so cost of shipping aside, what's it cost to have u tune my junk if it shows up crated?...we all want to know that...
Great explanation of low end V.E. the big cam won't spool the turbo as low on the bottom.
This just convinced me to stay small with the cam on my 4.8 as I was having a hard time not wanting a stage3..
Thanks
Tyler Ireland
Check out his video where he tests stage 1, 2, & 3 cams in a 5.3 and 6L. It says a lot about how much the bigger cams move the power curve up in the rpm
One of the best videos I have seen recently of yours
In the big LS cam test a few years ago, I thought the Crane 210/218 was the most impressive by far, losing virtually no torque down low but offering +90 up top to the factory cams. I would think recreating it with more modern lobes like Comp LSL 211/219 would be just that much better.
I always wanted wanted to know how this cam would work on the L67 with a turbo?
DEN
Can't argue about any of that, makes good sense. Also knowledge and experience is in what you say. I'm with that
I did a stage 3 on my 6.0 but also bumped the compression up to 11:1 & put a TBSS intake on 🎉
Did a stage 2 tsp truck cam in my pre Corona virus 07 avalanche build and im glad i did. Got a bug out truck now in case shit really hits the fan hehe... for 150 miles before i run out of gas at least but lol 🤣 but man oh man is it is fun as hell to drive and offroad with vs stock. 2007 avalanche 4x4 z71 NA gen 4 LC9 5.3l to 383 forged stroker conversion kit with 1800-2100 stall, 6" lift kit, custom fitted rough country 2.5 vertex 8 stage adjustable shocks, 4.88 gears and 37" mt toyos. One day it will see boost after its all caged up but thats only once im ready to die doing something crazy awesome lol
It needed to said. Nice work Richard!
Great work as always!! I’d like to see the Elgin SS2 vs btr stage4 v2 cam. God bless you a the knowledge you share will all. God bless America.
Awesome video. Thank you for your time to educate myself
Great info Richard! I have been telling guys around here for a long time this. Hopefully this helps people make the correct cam choice.
This is gold for the young generation and even some of the old guys, like you said we have all been there.. Great vid👍
Glad to see some common sense as most of us are in the dd category. Good work!
Im doing a blow thru 5.3 with Pro Ls Pistons and rods with a Eagle 1500hp crank. Stage 4 Texas Speed Turbo Cam with a 94MM Billet wheel , 11;1 compression
that's all of it!
Great video . And information. Other things to defanitly do. (Larger Ring Gap ) and stiffer intake valve springs. If planning higher boost pressure. The ring gap is also important for nitrous shots bigger than 100 shot.. and the $150.00 - $200 it cost for wideband oxygen sensor +gauge and wire harness. Is a good addition. To know for sure your getting a good AF ratio. .
Doing good work 👍. This is something we should all know. I remember zippy (zippy performance) doing cam testing back in the mid 2000s with Silverado SS’s. The smaller cams whooped the bigger stuff with the same converter due to loss of TQ. The weight of the trucks exacerbated this issue and really proved a point. Once your TQ down low starts to die, stop there! That’s big enough. Try telling that to a customer though 😔
Lots to learn on turbos ,cams , and converter, great info.
I like the different style. Laying everything out like this is awesome.
Man I’m really glad you put this video out! I’m building a twin turbo (eBay gt45’s) 4.8L for a burnout competition truck and been racking my brain on cam’s from stock to as big as it gets! Now you got me really thinking about leaving the stock cam in it or a very mild cam!
I'm no pro,but it would seem to me if you're building a burn out rig,you would be wot & at the top of the power band where the higher stage cams rule.
Damn i was thinking of a truck norris cam cause i like the chop with the 78/75turbo but now you gotme thinking of going with the stage 1 cam and that same turbo on my lm7 5.3 i race 8th of a mile offroad
the TN cam will work well on a 5.3l with a 7875
Here's the thing, in my 01 Durango Rt, it has a 5.9 magnum, and i put edelbrock as cast heads on it.
It is so torquey, it launches off the line hard, and by 3500 its done and wont pull. Im not worried at all about losing low end torque, and I would really like to have good power at 5500.
EVEN THE STOCK HEADS WILL MAKE POWER PAST 3000 RPM-SOMETHING ELSE IS WRONG
@@richardholdener1727 well yeah I need a better cam. The heads are irrelevant to my point, I'm trying to make an argument for why I might want to go for a stage 2 cam over a stage 1.
If you ever come to the Sipp the drinks are on me bro. I greatly appreciate all of your efforts. Your delivery makes education entertaining. Thank you and keep it up. Cheers
This is what’s been lacking in the community solid info and facts myths and what actually works
I want to put a lsa blower on my wifes 2013 Suburban. I've already deleted the dod.... it runs great it's got a little over 90k miles on it. It's the LC9 I would really love to see like 7-8 of boost with a supercharger and utilizing the variable valve timing. I'm not looking for crazy power. I really don't think I need a cam.. maybe some shorty headers and some better cats or no cats. I would be totally happy if it made 450hp and 450tq. But I'd love to see that Torque from like 2-5k rpm.
Thank you for that one, I just had that question after your last video.
I might shift to a BTR Stage 1 instead of stage 2 Truck cam for my LQ9 in preparing for a turbo build.
Now I just need to figure out what turbo to use. Perhaps BW S472 76/100 comp with 80mm turbine at 0.83-.91 A/R. Looking for something that spools early and gives me loads of torque. Turning 46" tires at 2 psi in snow takes a lot of power.
Hey Richard!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and resources. Really informative videos👍
I’m building an 89 K5 Blazer with 6.0. Much like the one in the background. Daily driver and occasional dunes. Planning mild cam and 76 or 78mm turbo.
This is exactly what I've been struggling with on my combo. Very N/A style tight lsa moderate cam at the moment and debating going to something else over the Winter while everything gets freshened. That and heads. BBF setup with twins. I've thought about even going with a marine style cam designed for low end grunt. Custom cam guys keep wanting to go bigger but I'm trying to keep it from getting too wild N/A before boost hits it.
You should test a texas speed chopmonster in a 6.0 with a turbo to get around 700-800 hp so we can see what a cam with the awesome sound makes and losses over a normal turbo cam.
Richard, this is excellent information! I learned a ton. Thank you. Could you explain to us the differences in cams for turbo, positive displacement supercharger, and centrifugal superchargers? Are supercharger cams designed for positive displacement more so than centrifugal? Thanks for all you do. I am in awe of the sheer number of videos you are able to produce.
SBE setups can benefit from the larger cam or live longer due to reduced cyl pressures, cant they? Higher boost pressue=more heat. Less boost pressure at the same output should be a good thing.
it can be if that is how it works
Another thing that’s not talked about enough, especially with daily driven turbo applications, is that 1000hp on a 2 wheel driven car or truck is practically pointless. Tire technology is the limiting factor at anything much past 600 or 700whp on an unprepared surface everytime. I’ve been rocking the Summit Stg 1 cam on my turbo 5.3 m6 for 5 years now. Couldn’t be happier.
You cant always equate bottom end and part throttle. You can have a cam that makes good torque on the bottom end but it’s a dog at idle and part throttle. With good exhaust tuning at WOT a fair amount of overlap gains torque even as low as 2500rpm assuming the other two valve events EVO and ICL are not out to lunch. This doesn’t in any way mean it works well at part throttle. The place you see this is on variable cam timing engines where at the bottom end the part throttle and WOT exhaust valve timing tune are wildly different. Similalrly a cam that looses a bunch of torque at bottom end at WOT can drive great part throttle. there is no correlation
Exactly, it's all about the resonance in the intake track. At WOT it could be awesome and you make a good amount of torque, with the throttle at only 15% open it could completely screw it all up and its a dog. The while system comes into play including exhaust type and length.
I agree with alot of what you say, however trying to make more torque down low combined with the weight of truck will make a ton of cylinder pressure. If your going through the trouble of swapping cams and turbo setup, why not have a stage 2 with a 3500 stall and 2 step off the line. Unless you plan to tow in which case a stock cam with springs and appropriate size turbo should do
I have to agree 95% of na power + boost mods = more max power. Of course like you pointed out how a stage 2 or more cam can hurt your spool up by making less low rpm power. . = less low rpm exhaust gasses to spool the turbo . (Valve overlap in the higher stage cams is the culprit) . Also higher compression piston and or higher comp head will make more power NA. And can help spool up turbo quickly. However under strong boost lower compression piston and or head will allow the turbo to pack in more air and fuel making more maximum power. . .
Hey Richard. Can you please do pulls from 2000. I realize that most cars and trucks will never be wot at 2k, but seeing torque curve at lower rpm's might reveal a lot about na driveability and potentially turbo spool. It may help a lot of us in choosing a cam. Also, a comparison of different lsa's for those of us that love a rowdy idle. Thanks, and as always keep up the great work. (2 dislikes from people with buyers remorse from buying stage 4...)
First of all Richard I want to say your Channel is absolutely brilliant! I watch your videos every time they come out so kudos to you and your team! Question: does the philosophy with the turbo cam apply to a PDS? I understand that a turbo needs to be spooled up quicker hence the smaller cam but when you take a stock supercharger like the one in my Hellcat and spin it faster wouldn't that mean that with the increased bottom end torque you might want to put that higher stage/bigger cam in to decrease some of that bottom end torque and put it up top? Am I thinking correctly?
For not breaking the bottom end, yes
There is a specific size of cam for a supercharger too as it either goes out of boost or makes hot air. Without being familiar with hellcat´s most often stock cams on modern cars are pretty well suited, going more than one step up is bordering screwing up in most cases
Thanks for the input. The stock cam has numbers of 215/221 @50 120.5 LSA. I was looking around 225-230/230-240@50 with 115-117 LSA. Close to stock lift. Below .600 anyway.
@@olof103eriksson Thanks for the information Olof
Great job Richard! I find most people these days over cam and under gear their trucks with stock verters and 30" + tall tires.
If there is one thing the 4.8 needs is more gear even with a stock cam. Whether its na or boosted I the 4.8 needs at least a 4.10 gear to get that little motor in its happy place.
My 4.8 has a 4.10 gear, 30" tall street tires and a 212/212 .560 112 even when it was na i beat up on trucks with bigger cams. It's been boosted for awhile now and my 4.8 spools my s475 quickly and carries the power thru rpm range
Most people that go with stage 2 or bigger cams generally go with lower gears so it makes the drop in low end a lot less noticeable. When I upgraded my 212/218 Silverado to a 224/224 cam I also lowered the rear gear low end loss wasn't noticeable
Excellent! Would love to see a similar discussion on picking a PD blower cam.
I wonder if the same applies to the VVT LS engines.
Really great explanation. And talk. Thanks for taking the time.
Now I understand why you told me my LS9 cam is gonna be laggy spooling a turbo on my gen4 flattop piston 5.3L with 706 heads!!! Can't wait to see the dyno numbers. Makes sense tho!
I have an LSA Cam test coming up
@@richardholdener1727 on a turbo setup?
Would you be able to test the summit LS RV cam, I have this in my k20 with a manual sm465 and 4:10 gears the drivability is amazing in my opinion, I was worried this cam may had be to small but boy was I wrong it's great
if you like what it does-then it's a win
@Richard Holdener
I think you forgot to mention that higher boost pressures will be required to make the same power without the nasty cam.
That was great, had to move away from my Roku to my PC to write this comment :) Low RPM power drop gets even worse at lower throttle openings - that should be on every box with so called torque or Stage 1 cams. (why to buy them )
You totally talkd me out of going with a bigger cam.
Question, if the bigger cam produces more horsepower in a, wouldn't it equate to More horsepower at a lower PSI with the same Turbo?
Richard what about preparing LSes for drifting. Oiling and valvetrain upgrades, etc.
Was that entire video a single take??
Great info as always, absolutely spot on👍
1 and done
Thank you for the video, it answers a few of my questions and also gives me some good pointers. 👍
The stage 1 v2 cam in my wifes pickup is spot on with alittle exhaust upgrade
Man I learn so much watching your videos. Thank you
This makes me feel a little better. I have a 6.0L with a btr stage 2 turbo cam. Right now during the build I have a 78/75 but I'm leaning toward a s480. I was worried I may be on the small side for the cam. Right now I just have a set of decked 799s.
How did the stage 2 cam work for you with the 78/75 ?
That turbo is way to small for a 6.0. I have t4 s480 96mm on a 6.0 and I’m close to the limit on back pressure on pump gas.
Never put the turbo on. Almost in now. I have a t6 85/96 for it now. Figure thats too big so it should work.
I have a blazer just like that one. Same color and lift. 😎
I’ve got the SS2 in my ls1 camaro and have a 5.3 in an el Camino was gonna go for the summit stage 2 turbo cam. Now You got me thinking I may drop it down.
You didn’t say a word about CHOP !! That’s IMPORTANT , to me 😜 , I need a NA , Nitrous , Turbo , Blower , decent fuel mileage , towing cam with CHOP ! LoL really that lopey choppy idle , I can’t live without it
Richard, great video full of info as always. I’m about to start putting my 6.0 Ls that is bored .030 over with forged pistons and rods together that will be used for drag racing. I plan to run a VS racing 88mm turbo. I also plan to run a long runner intake but have not decided on which heads to run yet. I of course went big and purchased a btr stage 4 v1 turbo cam. I believe I already know your answer but do you think that this cam will be able to spool this turbo or should I downsize?
I would go smaller on the cam
How about Stage 1 cam and start ramping the boost to turn the torque peak into a plateau using a controller? Might be a good move.
Felt like u made this video specifically for me.. lol.. I had a question in your last video.. I guess the bigger question was what is the soul purpose of the vehicle. And u nailed it..
We all just want that chop chop chop 🤣
I'm putting a sloppy stage 2 in my forged 5.3 with ls1 823 heads and 6cc domed pistons. Hoping for 10.5:1. I can't wait to see some dyno numbers on this channel.
823 heads won't fit a 5.3... they'll only fit 6.0L or larger
Whatever you say homie
853. I'm sorry
thank you Richard, too many times I've seen this scenario
In my experience with 2.6 liter engine, 86 bore, 73.7 stroke, 8000 rpm redline, is the bigger the better for cam. We ran some big cams, small turbos, and the engine really seemed to like it. Almost like anti lag.
I'm so happy to find your channel iv lurned so much and this video especially I needed to see I would always be the guy bigger has to be better
Thanks for the info! Love the data, the numbers don't lie
Hi Richard! lots of conflicting opinions on Rhoads lifters for large cams. We would love to see an unbiased dyno test on them. To good to be true? RPM potential? Do they really help low end?
Hi Richard. Great info, thanks. I would love to see a video on the difference a Variable Vane Turbo makes, if any. Maybe from a Dodge Cummins? And see if it can be done without a computer. By vacuum?
Just a suggestion
Do stage 1-4 summit cam showdown I see u did 4 already
As long as the cam timing is close they'll do the same thing
@@austindoud273 I mean how much gain differences between them
@@macdude3585 just find a cam thas close that's been dynoed it's really not as complicated as you think
Let's see a video series of a ls swapped K5 that's parked behind you...then later add the turbos....that would be awesome home quarantine content
Amazing advise. So, in regards to a mostly daily driver truck cam upgrade it’s refreshing to hear a recommend for smaller cam. And the fact that low end trq loss on big cams is accentuated by turbo makes it a no brainer.
BUT, what about a twin screw? Some loss on the bottom from the cam surely would be covered up by the low rpm boost of the twin screw right? Or does the same phenomenon occur with a SC, that if u size the cam too big for that application you see an amplification of trq loss? Nah.. can’t be.
I lowkey regret buying a cam for my 6.0 swap lol but great video. Love learning more from you 💪🏾💪🏾
Very much agreed! Torque for the win!!
7875 huron kit but going on a 383 stroker LS1 forged bottom end. What cam for something with those cubes? Mostly street driven with trips to the quarter mile track planned. Its in a six speed f body. Thanks
use my Low Buck Truck-it's only $179
I'm not building a race car (convertible) so I'm sorry to say I'm in it mostly for the chop.
That said, I'd be interested in a test that pits a torque cam & large turbo against a big cam & smaller turbo, particularly at HP numbers that can be used with street tires.
if you are building a race car (as stated in the video), you won't use either of those combinations-you will pick a big turbo with a big cam and then add converter and gearing and 2-step as necessary
Thanks Richard, Great information as always!