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heres a point you cant refute doom eternal locks you into a certain way to play the game you have to weapon switch you have to use the flamebelch and you have to use the chainsaw. doom 2016 feels like a much more friendly game to play. the reason why you get push back for your opinion is your willfully ignoring the fact nobody who was casual with doom 2016 decided to play like you did. YOU are the minority and the game should have not been designed to appease that subsection of players. its just like 7 days to die making every house some parkour dungeon because a few youtubers wanted to make parkour challenges in the alpha prior. its a 1to1 comparison in both cases the game was changed to appease a Very small subsection of the player base which in turn alienates the MAJORITY of the player base.
@@zeroph3849 Agreed that people who casually played Doom 2016 didn't develop the playstyle that I did. And that's the point. The developers see that its a much more interesting and fun way to play, and that's the game they wanted to make in the first place. They made a much better game. And it doesn't alienate the "MAJORITY" of the player base. The majority of the player base absolutely loves the game. And there are lots of people who have been shown by Doom Eternal a whole new world of possibilities and love it.
The last few minutes of your speech made me tear up a little.... don’t know if that’s normal or not, but I felt a sting in my heart when you said arena shooters are rare to come by mostly because it’s true and when you said Doom Eternal was that large leap of hope that came out of nowhere a tear of joy almost want to burst out because you’re right, this damn game was a MASSIVE relief from everything I played.... I know that sounds weird and sappy.... idk is it weird and sappy?...
Yeah me too. I always watch Mayo because this guy studies the game. I too had linear type of play because of doom 2016. I died more than 10 times on my first nightmare playthrough. But then I decided to read tutorials. Infos about demons etc. And most importantly, watching various strategies on TH-cam to find the best suitable one for me. Sure, I should have been able to figure that out. But doom 2016 just made my brain like a robot: rocket lock, plasma canon vise versa. Now I can fight Marauder in 4 different ways and kill it in less than a minute. Thanks to the variety of options available to deal with the demons. The fun zone is that for me.
I feel like the main reason people complain about eternal is because it can be a bit overwhelming. Personally i love the game and have played through it multiple times. The key difference imo between 2016 and eternal is that in eternal you have to think. 2016 is for the most part point super shotgun repeat. Eternal requires a state of self awarness that 2016 didnt which is what makes it so engaging but some people just prefer mindless violence i guess. 2016 wasnt bad but it got stale quickly for me eternal has yet to get boring over half a dozen playthroughs later.
Most of the casual audience want to fall into a "comfortable" playstyle and expect to get rewarded for it. That's why 99% of AAA games are designed to validate any kind of play.
It’s a matter of taste. I love the combat in Doom Eternal, but I truly miss the sprawling exploration-vania level design and the mod-support of the original.
well you need some brain to realize that limits force to get innovation to eventually surpass the limits. Can´t expect that from the nowadays average shmo gamer.
yes. but Ultrakill exists. that game doesnt limit anything or forces u into playing optimally via negative enforcements but encourages skill expressiveness. the skill floor is as low as it can possibly get at prologue missions but the skill ceiling is beyond the sky. not saying this as a criticism , but watching this vid 3:47 made me realize why mayo has such " unpopular " opinions about ultrakill's combat system. some rules are nice, but they are not set in stone u can ignore them and still come up with something unconventional that is truly incredible. Eternals purpose is to overcome ur enemy, Ultrakill's purpose is to dispatch enemies stylishly
@@btchiaintkidding7837 I don't play either game, but you're absolutely on point. If negative reinforcement is the only path offered in a videogame that you have to pay money for - then it's just a straight up bad and/or lazy design. A truly great developer incorporates all gameplay options, thus maxing out potential customers. Doom2016 didn't go wrong on this one. It did, when it introduced a lot of wasted space in the levels and tons of downtime with enemies-out-of-thin-air lazy designer's gimmick. DmC was an excellent example of doing things right.
@@williams8977 Yes, do you think I care though? I'm hookshotting into demons with a flaming grapple hook to fill them full of double barreled fury, it could give 1 armor and I will still abuse it.
"Doom Eternal Doesn't let me use only one gun the entire game so it's bad" dope video dude people still complaining about it when the devs have said so is pretty dumb
They think that cheesing the game with 1 weapon is a way of playing. “I’m gonna do a SS round and play only using the shotgun” that type of shit. That’s why they complain about the game forcing to play its way, it’s just an excuse they have to not learn the gameplay.
that got me off guard i must admitit i tought he would have loved the game because he played in Doom 2016 in the fun zone and was even mentioned himself by hugo in an interview so i tought things were not going to change so much for him but apperantly he conplained about ammo, chainsawing and even the freaking platfoarm i could nt believe it
So he actually played like he was supposed to play Eternal yet he dislikes it??? Well sucks for him I still replay the campaign it's the best shooter I've ever played and it made me an even better player
I mean I think that's a pretty flawed argument. It's pretty debatable to begin with that it really "needs" defending since it sold great and most people do seem to like it. Sure some people disagree, but there isn't any game out there that won't have its detractors and I think ID knows this as well, and is unlikely to take these complaints too seriously.
@@coaxill4059 You can actually see that in the latest update, they fixed the marauder with the ice bomb exploit so you couldn't melt him in like 3 seconds and they made the fight with the gladiotor harder, this goes tho show that people bitching about Doom Eternals combat are not in Id's mind.
I think of these videos more as a celebration of it's design, inspired by the desire to respond to criticism. It's a jumping off point to talk about what i really wanna talk about.
Eternal actually changed gaming for me. I was exactly that COD type guy that would only have one play style. When I started with Eternal, it was exactly like you said, I had to change my method of just only using one weapon and switch between all of the different weapons and always change my strategy no matter how many times I play through the game. It has actually just made me a better player overall in almost all the games I play. I know some people might not believe this, but it even helped me in games like Overwatch. It has really helped me adapt to the situation and whatever the enemy team was playing and how to beat them. (Also love the God of War 3 gameplay and comparison!!)
How does it help in something like Overwatch? I know the original concept behind it was switching to meet demands of the enemy but the locking system they did broke that, and the whole ultimate economy thing punishes you for switching. I wanna improve as you did but I don't see how it helps
@@Chargedolt it helps just like I said. Like for example, although it took me awhile, I started to realize that if I see a Cree on the the enemy team when I was playing something like Doom or Genji, I would need to play more passive and play with my team more and look for better opportunities to go in and just dive without any coordination. Little things like that helped me. And also my aim got better too.
@@spennythespoo I want to believe at least some of them know enough to not be "bad" per se, as in they can beat the game on Ultra Violence or even Nightmare if they stick to it. It's just they haven't played enough to realize the full depth of the tools at their disposal and so they think you are forced to always respond to scenarios in specific ways (like always using lock-on burst or ice grenades for anything problematic.) To make an analogy, it's like the people who beat Dark Souls but complained about Sekiro for "forcing you to play one way". While it's true to an extent, a second glance at all the tools and combat arts you have will reveal there is definitely still a lot of creative freedom in how you approach a fight and how to be stylish. Would it be less efficient? Sure, but not by much, and doing well even then is what separates an excellent player from a good one.
The game has enough tools available that your response to death should be "alright how TF do I kill this cocksucker?" Not "this game sucks I'm gonna quit". I feel scrubby enough when I say fuck it and use my Crucible, quitting would just make me feel like such a bitch, resorting to a single playstyle is bad enough.
Exactly my thoughts. 2016 was just super shotgun+ gauss Cannon. Still a damn good game, but eternal allows way more creativity. And people say it doesn't
@DarkSonic180 it does my boy. You can use multiple tactics, instead of just ss+gauss Cannon. Example. 3 mancubus, 2 revenant, 3 cacos, 5 arachnatrons, 10 shield guys,in groups of 5. Walk up to the first shield group, plasma, other group with arachnatron, ice nade, rocket launcher, fodder enemy, glory kill, caco, frag, etc. How would that fight go in 2016
making colorful ammo that automatically picks up was pretty stupid... what's the difference what color the ammo is when you don't have to manage it why change colors at all
@@ryszakowy are you saying you want the gameplay to slow so you can look at a menu and see what ammo you need? Did i get that right? Because if so that's a terrible idea
DarkSonic180 do you need to reply to every comment or reply that disagrees with your opinions and view point. The original (2016) DOOM was indeed fun but not much creativity you need to just move, dodge, and shoot, Eternal though gives tons of enemies with unique weaknesses the video has a whole section showing this maybe you should watch it.
@@blubettle1191 I agree that is doesn't incentivize creativity, but its objective is to make you have fun, some people will like spamming super shotgun, and I, not having Eternal as I can't afford it, bought recently the 2016 one, and it has combat depth, not as much as Eternal, but it's so much fun oneshoting eyeballs with one weapon, switch to the minigun to kill a hell baron, etc, so it really let's you have fun, use your creativity and being stylish in the process
Honestly the only game I think lacks creativity that encourages it is Just Cause 3. In Just Cause you’re encouraged get creative with your tethers to cause massive destruction, but you’re never incentivized to do it, you’re not given any unique examples of things you can do that perhaps you didn’t think of, and there’s no story missions that take advantage of the mechanic. If you want to finish the game just blowing everything up with guns and explosives you can do that it, but that becomes extremely boring. In Just Cause 3 you’re basically forced to get creative if you want to enjoy the game, which isn’t great because it means the devs put little effort into the gameplay and integrating the tether system into it since you honestly never HAVE to use it save for a select few instances.
I have been playing for trophies now on Doom Eternal and ones like “can’t improve on perfection” where you can only have one sentinel crystal and praetor upgrade really force me to get gud and learn how you should play with less resources, it’s actually more fun for that trophy and starting nightmare soon
I agree. One of the smartest things the put in the game. It very subtly encourages the player to think about the upgrades not just as a path to 100% efficiency, but also as a way to shape their experience.
Doom eternal feels like a character action game to me, the likes of bayonetta and devil may cry (especially DMC 5). Let me explain a bit. In a character action game you are given a few number of weapons, skills, and combos. Just like doom eternal gives you those as well. But the similarity doesn't even start there. It's the gameplay. In doom eternal you are constantly pushed by enemy but you are also highly capable of pushing back as long as you are skilled enough and able to pull some "combos", you also have to think on the battle arena focusing on certain enemies to eliminate first and using all of your arsenal and abilities to survive and pull off crazy moves. Just like in a character action games where the game put you in an arena full of varied enemies for you to focus on, and just like in Doom Eternal you either have to buckle up and be better at the game, or be "boring" and get killed in an instance. I always feels like being killed or having a moment of mistake in those games (including Doom Eternal) is my fault and it gives a feeling that I can be better next time. The satisfaction comes after you become really good at mastering the arena, the character, the weapons, and other aspects of the game. To me Doom eternal is not a first person shooter, it is a character action First Person Shooter. I hope this makes sense. Sorry if its a little confusing, English is a second language. Rip and Tear
That's basically the reason I love this game (I'm a sucker for the character action genre), it perfectly captures the katharsis of just pulling off all the stunts, combos and decisions in the most stylish and efficient way possible. I've seen a lot of people compare it to dark souls, and though I can see why, I feel like Doom Eternal being the DMC of FPS is a more accurate depiction of the game. That and the fact that both games are about a demon slaying powerhouse, only that Doom has a sci-fi twist. I also wanna add that The Marauder is basically Vergil gameplay wise, I do feel like he was a bit wasted given his concept. His intro is so badass, it really feels like a stand--off between equals, but that's about it. It also comes down to the fact that Lore wise the Slayer is basically untouchable which just cheapens the existence of the marauder, as really something like the Icon of Sin is a threat to him. They may be using him as a proof of concept for a Rival like enemy for the sequel, with an actual equal to the Slayer in all aspects. I know I extended myself with the whole Marauder rant/opinion (I actually love the him gameplay wise, just to make it clear), but I wanted to bring him up given how a lot of Character Action games like DMC, MGR:Revengence and Bayonetta tend to have a rival character (Vergil, Sam Jetstream , etc), I just wanted to point out how Doom Eternal had even the Rival aspect covered, even if it may have done it better... yep, this game is Hellfire defined.
clockner: [plays Doom 2016 extravagantly] id Software: That's it, that's the elusive Fun Zone that Doom Eternal needs. clockner: I find it tiresome being forced to play in this style all the time Under The Mayo: But... it's called The Fun Zone...
Fun, as long as you do it their way. IMO Freedom and creativity goes hand in hand, and dont tell me something is creative when its limiting you to play in a very specific way.
That exactly the thing that doesn't make any sense to me. The devs made DE's fun zone based on clockner's style of playing Doom 2016, and then he ended up being completely wrong about it. Not liking it is fine, people have different taste but man, it was clockner! All he had to do was to play DE like he played Doom 2016 and it was going to be completely fine. Wth!
@@yourewallsareveryconvenien8292 He was also really toxic when people disagreed with him. I used to think he was sensible, but he's just fucking stupid
there are more options to do stuff in eternal because of everything that holds you back. less ammo, more aggressive ai, no punch escape, etc. there is no spamming ssg and ballista all the time, you’ll run out of ammo. standing still with just kill you instantly. so you must get creative. how are you going to move, up and down or in a circle? what weapons combo’s do you know? got trapped in a corner? you can ice grenade out, regular grenade out, chaingun shield or spray plasma. if anything DOOM Eternal has *more* creative options!
This, this is incredibly true to me. I believe that creativity doesn't stem from the absence of limitations but the establishment of rules. That's why I like the system of Eternal, because with setting limitations on the player, they also incentivize different strategies to use.
@@praphet6669 There's a saying, "limitations breed creativity" Often times creativity stems from saying "How do I get around this limitation or utilise it to its fullest potential?"
Elvin Henrik Elum Exactly, too much freedom is limiting since there is always gonna be an easy way to complete a task. It reaches the same goal in the most efficient way. You’d be stupid to not spam the SS in Doom 2016. In Eternal, your limitations bring out all the creativity possible. Here you’re stupid FOR spamming the SS.
DarkSonic180 You keep using that “objectively” word but I don’t think you actually understand what it means. I also think you don’t know as much about game design as you think you do. Literally every well-designed game encourages (or in your language “forces”) you to play within a certain framework, yet allows the player to experiment within that framework and come up with their own strategies to overcome the game’s obstacles. Even 2016 was like this to an extent, you can’t really play 2016 like a cover shooter or CoD, you’ll get swarmed and murdered right away.
That's one of the biggest lies that I've ever heard because of me self discovering how to shotgun grapple through the air and rocket fire back at any enemy in the ground without getting self damage
Man, I can't tell you how glad I am that you made this video, I've been harping on this concept since day 1. As a musician, I tend to liken other skill-based activities to music, and Doom Eternal leaves so much room for interpretation and improvisation. Frequently when playing Doom I walk into a room with a general gameplan. Often times at some point in the fight the plan goes to hell, and I'm forced to react accordingly or I'm dead. Thinking on the fly is extremely important and I love how reactionary this game is. To be successful the player must not only be good on the sticks (or whatever PC players say) but also have great movement and comprehension of the situation at hand. Much like the best musicians have not only great technique, but wonderful expression and musicality. Players who have great technique but no expression are boring, and expressive players who miss notes or are out of tune aren't fun to listen to either. And just like 2 players might play the same tune a different way, 2 players in Eternal can play the same room and win but look completely different in the process. Id really did achieve something special with this game's single player.
As a casual player Idk how people can't grasp eternal's gameplay, it should be common sense but I guess it depends on the person's level creativity and on top of that I have a general understanding that when I play a game I already ha e expectations of what can be possible and what might not be. But to me it's as simple as learning a new tool or machine.
@@masterdeity3400 i think it’s more some people do simply like being able to use whatever they want when they want, even if i’m not in this group. Imo people simply don’t realize one of the biggest driving forces in creativity is limits set into place.
“You can’t be creative in this game”. Fine. Get a digital tablet and start a webcomic if creativity is your aim. Or write a goddamned novel. Or play freaking MINECRAFT. Oh, you mean “I’m not fast enough or clever enough to be creative in this game”? Welcome to the club. I ain’t either. I’m a scrub. But I know that’s on ME, and don’t snivel about it.
@@ThisisKyle i like the difficulty as it is, i mean sure i get my ass kicked most of the time but if feels just so rewarding after finishing each boss fight
Elite Sturmgewehr then lower the difficulty. Im not trying to be insulting, actually on my first run i was on im too young to die, but it could be fun with lower difficulty, and you can just have fun with it.
@@Raber123ful i dont like either, i want to play in the way that i want its a shooter game, if i want to think and be skillful, i’ll play sekiro, that its way more satisfaying with his mechanics and instant kill parry
I play on PS4 and recently beat Brawler mode on Nightmare and it just goes to show that after months of playing the game how much of a fresh experience something like Brawler can be, it's the same weird argument when I hear people complain that Battlemode doesn't have enough variety or creativity, the gameplay is so dynamic! Anyway cheers for Brawler mode Mayo :)
What amazes me the most about Eternal is that in Doom 2016, i used the infinite ammo rune that allowed you to have infinite ammo so long as you remained above a certain health or shield percentage, so it rewarded skillful movement. But in Eternal, the Infinite Ammo cheat doesnt feel good to use because it breaks the core gameplay loop, and that loop is so absurdly fun to play and get creative with, that having infinite ammo just makes the game boring.
The criticism of Doom Eternal's combat is pretty much the same if people complained about the stamina system in Souls games or that you can't just hack and slash away and come out on top. The game just does not work that way and when you get to the required mindset and learn to use and abuse the mechanics it becomes a playground of destruction with an exceptionally high skill ceiling. No longer frustratingly hard, it becomes tough but fair, fun and punishing. The challenge becomes an incentive to get better as a player and master the game.
After playing eternal for 3 months, I went back and replayed 2016 all over again, and I found that eternal made me a better player. Back when I first got it, I really only used the super shotgun and the gause cannon. But now that I've been locked in on eternal I found that I naturally cycle through all the weapons and I found that I naturally used my chainsaw more frequently than I used to do out of habit. Ended up making it more fun for me, and I ended up playing on a harder level than I originally had played. Was pretty cool.
Finished 2016 off the bat in Nightmare difficulty and it was indeed fun and I have never had the problem of "super shotgun goes brrrr!" that so many had. If they had this problem they just had to adjust the difficulty up, problem solved. In Eternal? Did the same: nightmare directly and when I understood that I will have to abuse the weapon selection wheel (that I have never used in 2016 because it is utter shit and I'm playing on PC) and the sniper rifle that slows down time I was like "OK, that's not Doom, sorry" *uninstall + refund* I want speed and momentum in my Doom game. Stuff that makes me pause the game for me to do ANYTHING goes completely against that and that's not Doom nor an arena shooter.
There is a way to play DOOM Eternal with one gun and no chainsaw: you have a ton of cheats available! Plus I got my non-fps-player friend to try Eternal on "i'm too young to die". And you know what? Despite the game being super easy and forgiving, by the end of the first level he learnt to snipe arachnotron turrets and feed caco with grenades. So I'm sure our new DOOM could even be an amazing introduction into fps genre for those who almost never played such games before. P.S. Brawler run felt amazing. Are you a game designer, dude?
My friend who doesn’t play fps games couldn’t get past the first encounter in doom eternal on im too young to die. As the demons ran up to him and started hitting him he started panicking and staying still and spamming the punch button which doesn’t do shit to the enemies even tho i told him it’s useless. He ragequitted and never touched the game again
The comparison of Eternal to old God of War (options mattering, encouraging skilled play) and DOOM 2016 to new God of War (options not mattering, encouraging degenerate play) was spot on. You have a real talent for game design analysis, nicely done!
I agree with everything in this video and absolutely love doom eternals approach and execution of the game flow, but in 2016s defense “shoot it until it dies” is doom in its purest form. Also, despite the harder push for weapon diversity, the holy trinity of 2016 is still there. Once you have the ballista/gauss rifle, rocket launcher, and SSG you don’t need anything else. Eternal does the mandatory weapon diversity very well, but not enough to stop me from endlessly cycling through the holy trinity for 80% of the game.
Yeah it's true. Knowledgable players will always have something to exploit. Much more important in my opinion is guiding new players into the system and not letting them fall into a boring one weapon playstyle. And then the game is dynamic enough to play new ways like limiting which weapons you use for a new experience.
Under The Mayo and that’s where brawler mode comes in haha. Yeah, all my friends that I’ve ushered in to doom eternal gets the same advice: all your abilities and weapons are tools, you don’t sink a screw with a hammer, you use a screwdriver. And farther down the road you may find a new tool that does the job better; aka a screwgun is to a screwdriver what the ballista is to precision bolt. I’ll point out which weapons they can lean on if they’re in a serious pickle, but I purposefully refrain from making the holy trinity known from the start.
SSG+Ballista+Rocket is very powerful but only works optimally when you’re at close range for the SSG shot, this may put you in a bad spot momentarily. In situations where closing in is not an option, it is actually more optimal to switch the SSG for the Precision Bolt. Plus to use the alpha combo like that you’ll also need to have some understanding of the faltering mechanic.
14:50 Man those are some really emotional sentences, "there's an ocean of other games for you, we got something we were hungry for since the death of arena fps games"
Doom is indeed about how fast you react, twitch aiming, spatial awareness, speed. A game where you have to pause to cycle through your arsenal isn't that. I want an instinctive, fast game, simple yet hard to master. Eternal isn't that. Platforming and level design in Eternal was fine though. Had no issue with that.
Yes, because all the Cod games are are you shooting without thinking. You know Black Ops 1 and 2 singleplayers, shooting without thinking, Modern Warfare games, shooting without thinking, Cod: Infinite Warfare, shooting without thinking. At face value, they might seem the case but if you pay attention to the story then it becomes more than just shooting without a purpose. Plus, those games have good stories and memorable chracters, something Doom had to sacrifice for gameplay. Doom may be good, but it doesn't make every other fps game dog crap. Doom Eternal is like the Red Dead 2 and Witcher 3 of the fps genre. Sure it's advancing and challenging what the games could be, but it doesn't make the games that came before it bad. Stop acting as if you guys are the intellectuals of the gaming community. If people don't want to give Doom a chance, then that's their choice as consumers. Not their IQ score.
I've been trying to incorporate the options you've brought to my attention. Microwace, Remote Detonation, the Unmaker. I've been trying to force myself to use option I was uncomfortable with. And though some of the options felt good, and I'm using them more and more, there were some that didn't feel good. I remember from your Ultra-Nightmare run, you mentioned how everyone kept telling you to use the Heavy Cannon Scope, but you didn't like it. You said "fuck it. I'm gonna play my way." and you started using and loving Micro Missles. I've been forcing myself to use options I didn't like, and it hindered my gameplay and my enjoyment. I built my own style using the things I love, and it's made my time with Eternal so much better. I recently just beat the base game and the Super Gorenest master level on Ultra-Nightmare. Watching your videos has taught me so much, and has made the game so much more fun. So thanks for teaching me so much with Eternal. I'm currently practicing Ultra-Nightmare for the Ancient God p.1. And I'm confident I'll beat it within the next month.
8:00 A really good point around there too. On reflection, as much as I talk about how easy it was to slip into the controls of 2016, getting into the gameplay rhythm was really hard for me, being only familiar with cover based FPS before that point like Wolfenstein. I died a lot until I got used to what it was incentivizing me to do, just like in Eternal. A lot of stuff I wound up finding by accident, like "holy crap my plasma rifle burst and blood punch can disable weak points?! That's incredible! Good thing there was an incentive to experiment and a clear iconic sound effect to notice this mid-fight."
6:29 OMG. I 100% can relate to that. Whenever i play dusk multiplayer there is a select few group of players that complain in chat because Im doing X which is somehow unfair and i never understood why they don't just act on their observation. If you keep walking into the same trap over and over again maybe it's you who has to change their playstyle and not me.
The God of War analogy was perfect here, Mayo. Couldn't agree more. They made GoW (2018) that way, imo, due to the popularity of Dark Souls and Bloodborne. I love both of those titles, but I also missed the old GoW gameplay. It was like Devil May Cry in a way. The more flashy combos you pull of the more exp you gained to level your weapons. That was the era then, so they matched it to make the player more comfortable while adding a certain challenge to the mix.
I love that at 7:10 you go through all these ways to deal with the arachnotron, yet you’re making the point for all these other games you complain about. Yes, you can use sticky bombs and remote detonate and other weaker stuff, but guess what? Triple rocket and balista/ss are the strongest things in the game, objectively. By your own logic, why would you use any of that other garbage when you can just stick to the strongest thing(something you complain about with other games constantly)? And don’t give me “the ammo economy!”, since the game basically has infinite ammo with the infinitely respawning zombies and recharging chainsaw. Could it be that you’re just incredibly biased and will “have fun” with Doom but not other games?
I still think that this complaint comes from excessive tutorials and definitely not from the gameplay itself as the issues completely dissappear, once you understand how it works. I myself got caught in that a couple of times. Most people think that if youre told something in the tutorial, then thats the right, best way of doing things. It isnt always. Especially in Doom Eternal. What that overreliance on tutorials does is that it kills the feeling of creativity. I kept failing to really progress in the Marauder boss fight, until I gave up, began to try to just feel the combat, and started combining remote detonation rocket launcher with a ballista. It was cheap, but effective and I got it in 3 tries after that. It also became my training wheels, for the generic takedown with SSG and ballista and later on more effective solutions. Doom Eternal has a lot in common with Dark Souls when it comes to thinking about enemies and situations. You observe and adapt, but the right way of fighting cannot be neatly summed up in a couple of sentences. Sometimes even whole paragraphs are not enough. Just see Dark Souls wikis for boss fighting strategies. That is thoroughly unfeasible for tutorials. But encouraging experimentation, while not getting hung up on things, is the way of achieving that goal. The great thing about game designs of these games is they tap into different skills each particular player has. The fact that we all play these game somewhat differently, preffering different combat style, different skills to rely on different situations IS what creative gameplay is. And if its not, then I have no idea what gameplay encouraging creativity is.
Basically like most tutorials, they're kinda counterproductive since they have to go by "the player is an idiot, here's what you can do" Which is why Doom Eternal should have taken a Metroid route and just gave them a weapon and then an arena where they can use it. No show and tell just let them do with what they just got.
You can turn off the tutorial. People who use it are most likely people who are newer players, I think they’re smart enough to know that the tutorial is an indication of what you can do with the gameplay system. It’s not the finality of your options.
The worst tutorial in the game is probably the Marauder. The sweet spot middle zone that it vaguely tells you to be in garbage advice and has only exacerbated peoples poor play against him. They should have simply said don't stop constantly moving, run away from him, let him attack you and than counter.
@@masterdeity3400 most gamers are to Low IQ to get it with how many whining is going on about eternal. If they are to stupid to under stand a tutorial is a guide not the end all to be all then they are just not normal human beings.
Someone once said having constraints actually creates creativity. Imagine having someone drawing on a blank paper, many will find it difficult to come up with something creative. Imagine having someone coloring one of those color-the-dinosaurs books, people will start drawing cannon on dinosaur's back and various crazy stuff.
here's the cool thing: weak points can be shot with almost any gun in doom eternal. After beating D:E on Nightmare, killing arachnotron weak points was a choice between using like 3 or 4 different weapons. Ice bomb enables even more. You could ice bomb, then rocket the turret off, if you wanted to. The limits are all in the players head.
I think some people just look at creativity differently. While you and I see creativity as having multiple efficient tactics that you can pull out in different situations, others see creativity as just, "can I do whatever I want and it still works?" It's a different definition of what "the fun zone" is to them. Choosing the weapon they like to use and claiming it as "their main" and being able to take on everything with it is fun to some people, and that's ok. It's just not what Doom Eternal offers, and lots of other games do that style better. I enjoy Doom Eternal more than other fps options because it takes this specialization approach to weapons, but I can see where these people are coming from when they think of creativity in a different way and are offput by eternal.
Yeah, well said. I don't think "creativity" is the right word here, but rather "freestyle", or "freedom". Some people just want to have the freedom to stick to a favorite and try to make it work in almost any situation. Sure, if some find it boring, I'm not gonna argue with them, fun is subjective. But really, I don't think that should be a problem, as long as they're having fun, right ? I for one like Doom 2016 more for allowing more player choice (although I didn't stuck to one weapon, contrary to what others might think). It was also the case in the classics. Eternal, while a good product, sadly couldn't keep me hooked the same way. Thankfully, mods managed to scratch that itch, if a little. So that's that.
A lot of complaints I have heard come from people who were hyped for an "old doom" experience, and who disliked the mechanics that you more or less must master to be good(weapon switching, the gadgets etc.). Doom Eternal is great, and I really believe some of these complaints come from different expectations expressed in a wrong way, and not stupidity or ignorance.
I think doom eternal is a key piece that'll forever be a major part of the doom dance since every demon has a weakness and every gun serves a different purpose and the resource management is great since you have to run around the battlefield looking for a fodder demon to chainsaw for ammo which really brings up some adrenaline but in doom 2016 you could shoot the super shotgun 30 times but now its been put to a reasonable 12 shots
The game is literally designed to force you to utilize every tool and opportunity the game has to offer, not their fault you can't manage your resources and react appropriately.
DarkSonic180 Ah yes, ID Software has paid me, a 16 year old teen living with in his grandmothers room, to comment on every video I see that Doom Eternal is good.
I literally beat the game on Ultra-Nightmare about 30 minutes ago and can vouch that I had not been able to do it without using my imagination to adapt to situations on the fly. Yes, there are battles that play out much the same way every time, but they are very rare, especially compared to Doom 2016. Id created a masterpiece and I hope they know it!
Doom eternal did what no other shooter has and that is make everything from ammo to health up to players. You don't need to find armor, you make armor from flame belch and the SSG. Blood punch can be used to make health drops, not just glory kills. Regenerating chain saw charge allows for you chose when ammo drops in the fight as well as avoiding damage and giving a small break to check on where your equipment charges are. Doom eternal is a masterpiece of player choice in combat and excels in creating insanely high player skill ceilings.
Finding Ammo/Amour/Health pickup locations are still important but yea making enemies resource makes the combat frenetic. Its similar to bloodborne regain mechanic which rewards aggression.
@@fuckso2342 They are but the chainsaw rewards most ammo types and everyone chose different ways of handling weaknesses, the skill gap is born from the player scavenging the arena and the player who uses the tools to make what they need, chainsaw always has at least one charge, your glory kills never need to recharge and your flame belch and grenades are on a recharge that you control when you want them.
This reminds me of some complaints people make about certain scenarios in Age of Empires 2. As a strategy game, it's about emphasizing map control and resource control, knowing your civilization's strengths, and exploiting your enemies' weaknesses. For example, you can't play passively against a Goth player, because Goths can spam quickly-made, cheap infantry that will simply overwhelm you in the late game. You have to keep a Bulgarian player off of stone, or they'll take map control with Kreposts. The game actively discourages the player from being passive, especially on higher difficulties and in high ELO games. You have to multi-task your economy and your military, or the game is going to make you bleed. Sometimes, you have to rush your enemy to keep them from overwhelming you, like in the Honfoglalas mission, or in the 5th Alaric mission. But if that bothers you, you can just tone down the difficulty, just like you can with Doom.
I haven't played DE but as someone who did play through HD edition and knows the basics of build orders and stuff, I think a lot of those complaints were due to how the newer campaigns were structured (especially in the Forgotten where many levels were too scripted and shied away from base building.) Nobody really minds the hard scenarios in Age of Kings partly due to nostalgia but also because they didn't just spam infinite units at you with too good tech. Honfoglalas however was a fucking horrible drag and easily one of the worst official scenarios I played. I eventually lucked out one time the Bulgars glitched out and had only idle villagers standing around though lol.
@@limonbattery Yeah, the infinite unit spam ruins the purpose of map and resource control, and I hate those kinds of missions. However, I really like Honfoglalas in DE--it was changed significantly from HD. the Bulgarians in that mission won't attack you unless you accept the Byzantines' offer, but you have to quickly defeat Moravia and keep East Francia off gold. Bari and Le Loi are still absolute hair-pullingly hard. Bari is like Halo 2 on Legendary but in a strategy game.
"Having the freedom of options is POINTLESS if there isn't a purpose for each of those options." After seeing the whole video, it is clear to me that I need to reevaluate my perspective on why and how I even enjoyed combat in various games such as Ghost of Tsushima, Persona 5, Skyrim, and even Command & Conquer 3. That said, I have a counterargument quote to make: "Having the freedom of options and not needing them is better than not having options and needing them." A game is meant to be fun within the rules set, and a player should be able to enjoy playing specific ways no matter how uncreative it is. Players in general don't have fun to be creative, they want to minimize effort and maximize value to equate enjoyment. The options are there in order for a player to choose how they want to handle a scenario, not take into account of every little thing and assume the whole "Jack of all Trades" style. I get it though. "Lack of creativity" is obviously false in Doom Eternal, and the video explains pretty darn well how that is false... but, if I find that the Heavy Cannon to be the most orgasmically awesome weapon, then I should be allowed to have ways to make it the only useful weapon in its own right rather depend on other weapons to proceed. In fact, limitation breeds creativity. Why do you think many triple-A games lately tend to be unpolished, uninspired, and/or dare I say... uncreative, while plenty of Indie titles do something unique and bring something new despite limitations in funding and being rather specialized in gameplay terms? It's about keeping it simple, and maximizing the depth. Look at Celeste on Nintendo Switch. I think that's all I got to say.
Game Journalists/Casuls: “Nooooo! You can’t just make the Super Shotgun not OP as balls and make us use actual tactics and thinking! Under The Mayo/Hugo Martin: “Haha, high speed weapon swapping and fast paced intelligent gameplay go BZZ BUUUHH.”
Except, no game journalist has said that, and they rated the game higher than Doom 2016. Also, it's the "hardcore" morons that are whining about it the most.
I’m a casual when it comes to FPS games, but Doom Eternal is definitely one of those games that I gotta chill for a minute because of how intense shit gets
I love the vergil fight at the end of DMC 5 because he plays exactly like a player would, so you HAVE to make your own openings, you HAVE to dodge his attacks, and you HAVE to combo him. If you fail at this, he smokes you.
@underthemayo Nope, and it feels great. The only other games that do this for me (besides Doom Eternal and DMC 5) are Ultrkill and Fromsoft games. It's like a comfort blanket of satisfying combat mechanics.
I talked to my cousin about this yesterday actually. From what I got out of the conversation, the tutorials kind of trick casual doom players into thinking that there is only one way to kill certain enemies. I somewhat agree though. If the tutorials were more suggestive like hints rather than show videos on “how to kill X” they wouldn’t stick to one way to kill stuff. Like the Doom Hunter being weak to plasma rifle shots to drop the shield. He thought that was the only way to kill it, but when I showed him blood punch pretty much deletes his hover tank after a few rockets he was like O_o.
I feel like some people saying that doom eternal wasn’t “creative” was just them saying they wanted more snapmap. Honestly I was disappointed to find I couldn’t make levels for doom eternal with all the new pieces that would be included
Doom2016 was closer to classic doom, where Doom eternal is something new. This isn't a bad thing, but some people are not going to be on board with the change. I personally feel Doom Eternal fits the mythos of doom guy becoming even more of a bad ass with each iteration. At some point he had to be strategic on a human level, but now hes motherfucking Dante.
For people who didn't know, some of the runes portraying to glorykills regard the chainsaw as a gk (glorykill) runes like farther gk reach and speed buff from gk, meaning you can use the chainsaw as a means of movement too.
Doom has some of the same reasons why idiots hate other complex games like devil may cry 5. Extremely steep skill gap but people don't bother to test their skills.
As someone that's never been the best at DMC games, 5 just feels so good to play. Even though I'm still painfully average at it, I feel like I've gotten a lot better at the game and it feels very rewarding to get better.
@@LikeADamnFIDDLE I think Nero is probably the character I've had the most fun with. He strikes the right balance between simple to play, yet there's enough depth to his mechanics to keep him interesting. Dante is like a fighting game character with how much shit he has to his kit. Very rewarding to play but he can be pretty daunting sometimes. V is....... unique. I like the unique approach, but I haven't felt like I've drastically improved with him like Dante and Nero
DOom eternal is truly a beautifully crafted game. However, the only true downfall is that it really is tailored for PC play. Ive put many an hour of play through it on xbox, my rank is 114 now. Yes on console you have a weapon wheel and even being as fast as possible it still feels sloppy when switching weapons. It is not easy/smooth to switch between three different weapons within a few seconds as u can on PC. It really breaks up the gameplay, but it is manageable. Still, hats off to everyone at ID for such an awesome game.
I do just want to say, this is also a casual vs hardcore thing. Eternal forces some level of creativity in play yes, the thing is that Eternal's gameplay loop requires a certain level of base skill. This is exacerbated more if you're bad. Imagine a really bad player, they're struggling not to die 24/7, they can't kill enemies fast enough, they can't use their movement and abilities well enough not to get hit much. If you give them the tools of weapon switch combos like ballista super shotgun, that let them do enough DPS to kill enemies without dying, or tell them they can shoot an arachnotron turret off with the sniper shot, they feel forced to do that. They are not mechanically skilled enough to pull off the other options that exist like using a grenade to stagger enemies, and using a blood punch, while keeping track of other threats so as not to get boxed in. Due to their combination of skill and the game's incentivisation, it feels like the game is forcing them into a very set gameplay loop of use correct weapon to kill weakpoint, run around, damage, chainsawe for ammo, flame belch for armour, glroy kill for health. They're basically doing a checklist at that point, because they aren't capable of more skillwise. In 2016, I just went through ripping and tearing and it was fun, I wasn't there for challenge. In Eternal I felt off kilter (granted I hadn't been gaming a ton before eternal, but I'm still an experienced PC FPS player), because I had to learn how it wanted me to play, and I had to learn how to use almost all the tools it gave me decently. In most games you are not required to make use of everything given to you. In the Witcher on normal difficulty you do not need to engage with the oils and potions system for example, you can just hack and slash your way through the game. With Eternal my lack of familiarity and competence with what it wanted me to do (switch weapons, use combos, use chainsaw, manage multiple grenade cooldowns and flame belch, move effectively) meant that a significant portion of my time wasn't that fun. I felt like I was a little behind the curve of what it wanted me to do, and as a result didn't feel like the unstoppable badass that the game is constantly telling you, that you are. That's not to say I was dying 24/7, I probably died 2-3 times on normal, but my state of gameplay was largely mild stress, not enjoyable competence. There were points where that did line up, especially times like right before the marauder was introduced, and towards the latter few levels of the game, I'd gotten to grips with what the game had given me and it resulted in some of the most fun and intense singleplayer FPS experiences I've had. On the other hand, I can fully understand how someone worse than me especially, could come in and just have a shit time, because the game wants a level of competence from them they they aren't willing to give or can't reach, at least in a single playthrough. Now these issues largely go away if you're willing to commit the time and want to do multiple playthroughs. If I played through again now, I would be in the enjoyable competence zone the entire time. The reality on the other hand is that most people do not play games multiple times. If I play something singleplayer, I am almost always there for the story and the experience, at this point I've experienced most of what the game has, and all of the story, I can get snippets of different experience if I replay (a harder fight, a master level with different enemies, but it's still largely the same), but I would rather just go play a different singleplayer game for an entirely new experience, or something multiplayer for replayability (like the Smash guy described, where a human opponent forces you to use every trick in your arsenal). I could also play through on a higher difficulty, but that's not what I play games for ironically even though I love souls. I've played though DS2 twice and 3 about 7 times. I don't actually play them because I like difficulty though. Their increased difficulty means that I felt like I really earned my victories (something Eternal does as well), but I also enjoyed the build variety, the extremely expansive and interconnected levels that reward exploration even across multiple playthroughs (this is huge, in DOOM for example I explore most of a level the first time through and don't feel any real desire to play it again and find the last few corners that have a figurine I didn't find, whereas in DS2 I missed entire optional bosses and things my first playthrough), the different NPC stotylines and lore that you literally cannot get in a single playthrough due to them locking you out of eachother. Now DOOM isn't the same as souls and it doesn't have to be. I'm just illustrating how most more casual players don't really have a reason to keep replaying and getting to the point where they have fun, they just play it once, game is hard, they have minimal fun and then they're done. My first DS2 playthrough was very intense and addictive for me, but I wouldn't describe it as fun most of the time, just intensely satisfying when I won. Now my second DS2 playthrough and 2nd+ ones of DS3 where I knew what I was doing, yes, that shit was fun as well as satisfying.
You mentioned the problem perfectly. Gamers are to lazy. It needs time to master Eternal. But if you do the real fun starts. You can do various combos. You can spent a crazy time in Etetnal. With other words it is its 60 bucks totally worth.
@@odin175lorenz5 The problem is that the initial hurdle of getting good at the game sours you wanting to actually go back and do it all over again. That's what happened to me. I got like, 99% of the way through the game and I was just... done, frustrated, resenting the game. The enemy that did it was the fucking Marauder, because I did not understand the mechanics and the fact that I am always aggressive. I NEVER stand back, I never wait, because I hate playing FPS games like that. The Marauder's were the enemy that sapped the fun from the game the more I faced them, it left a bitter taste in my mouth. The rest of the game is decent enough. But I have no desire to ever try and pick it up, do all the secrets, because frankly, I don't want to engage with the combat loop due to negative feelings about it. Part of it might have been playing to much in one go, but yeah, just, not a game I want to revisit. That and the colour pallet of the game sucks balls. Ugly world to have to revisit, makes my eyes bleed for the most part.
ngl its harder to jump into doom 2016 when you start with doom eternal (speaking from experience)(just played doom eternal last december during 2022 for the first time) because i was used to the movements in doom eternal with the dashes which made it feel weird to be super slow in doom 2016 but i understood the approach
And plus, if you do want to run around with your favorite gun all day, the cheat codes allow you to do that, infinite berserk, overdrive, or quad damage, massively reduced damage, infinite ammo, all unlocks. There are so many things that cheat codes also allow players to do and can allow for even more creativity. For instance, I try to use an u popular weapon mod I don't normally use like full auto (I don't use full auto as I rely pretty heavily on the super shotgun) and I just go ham with it, having overdrive and infinite ammo makes the full auto insane.
Hot take: I agree with everything you said in this video, but after 95 hours in Eternal, went back to 2016 and I found that a much more relaxing and joyful experience, the game is incredibly laid-back and gives you the power fantasy directly, not saying Eternal's way of earning it is bad, I loved that too, but these days, having experienced both games and achieving 100% completion on both games, it's always 2016 I go back to moreso than Eternal for an instant adrenaline charge, people aren't wrong for disliking DOOM Eternal's gameplay loop and how different it is from 2016, I know one of the very best players of 2016: Clockner, doesn't like Eternal for these reasons too, and at first I was like: "No way dude, he's just missing it" but now ? I actually agree with him, some people would rather just be creative of their own volition rather than game's design. An ideal future DOOM sequel would find a way to accomodate both fanbases, but both sides are so vehemently hateful of each other and are so divisive, ID will prolly do its own thing and hope people like it again, but hey they're doing great so far so....
Pretty much any game let’s you be creative. If you’re willing to put in some limitations or if your willing to break the game a bit. Take speedruns for example, you won’t find more creativity anywhere else
I’ve bought this game seven days ago and...I love it. I finished DOOM 2016 in ultraviolance in two days four years ago. DOOM eternal in ultraviolance is taking me a week and I love it! Every death makes me return to the game and beat that arena, Mike Gordon’s music makes my blood boil and gives me adrenaline boost! Right now I’m im the last mission and the longer the icon of sin remains on earth the stronger it will become. 10/10. I love DOOM
Honestly, the only creativity stifling I've been seeing is the removal of the custom map feature from 2016. We will never see a Harvest Doom on Eternal ._.
I've watched this particular upload at least 5 times, among others, and growing from a completely new doom player to going through nightmare runs, this games opens you up to being a more "think on your feet" person.
It’s so frustrating to hear complaints like this because there are some real things in the game to criticize if you look a little deeper, but all of this is so surface level and remedied with a slight change of perspective. Good stuff Mayo.
Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a certain rythm the game wants you to get in to play it. But I've had pretty drastic changes in my playstyle over the course of my playthrough, experimenting with new weapon combos and mods, and from adapting to all of the new enemies. To say it limits creativity is a bit stupid tbh
>there's definitely a certain rythm the game wants you to get in to play it Every well designed action should do that. Doom 2016 flaw was it didn't punish cheesing and 1 weapon spammers enough. It also soo stupid to complain that a Doom game pushes a rhythm of combat when every game in series has done this just in more simple way.
Limitations and parameters can inspire creativity. The fact that there are enemy based strategies means you need to switch up your strategies in unique ways
What ID should have done is to double the ammo capacity on lower difficulty settings so people could stick to one weapon, but having the game the way it is now or even more restrictive on harder settings. It would actually stay true to the originals because every ammo pickup had double the ammo on easier difficulty compared to Ultra-violence and higher. It was less need for exploration on I’m To Young To Die, but exploring and min-max your ammo, health and armor was crucial on higher difficulty setting. It would be a huge benefit to the game because it would have broader appeal and the game would fundamentally change between difficulty options. This isn’t Dark Souls where you have just one difficulty option called Git Gud & Praise The Sun(meme).
I tried to play 2016 the other day. After playing Doom Eternal, I can't play 2016 effectively anymore. I keep trying to dash, use flame belch, etc. It's like I have to completely relearn the game lol
A very good video released four days ago from a titanfall youtubers mentioned that the gaming community has becomes to casual and now expects everything to be handed to them without challenge, and I have to whole heartedly agree. Everyone expects to mash buttons and repeat patterns to win, but it’s games like Doom Eternal and Titanfall 2 that feel like real games to me. Thank you for making this video.
I always thought about it using all your “tools” as a combo. It’s the reason there’s less ammo capacity in Doom eternal compared to 2016 Doom. The reason the chainsaw is unlimited because it recharges. The reason there is flame belch and blood punch for health and armor in the first place. Almost every demon has a recommended weapon to use against them but not required. I think about like this, if I use a chainsaw and I don’t grab ammo for all my weapons, I’m not playing to the fullest potential that game has to offer, but it doesn’t mean that is less fun. You can still be in the fun zone if you don’t use some weapons, but know that it might break the combo you had going when you meet the “one” demon.
People who complain all the time about games, shouldn't be playing them at all. Doom Eternal is made perfectly. And the few who disagree. please go home.
It's as close to perfect as we'll get, but it does still have flaws. There's occasional inconsistency for lock-on weapons (meat hook, chainsaw, lock-on burst, blood punch), ARC Complex Master Level crashes a lot, and the glory kills for the Baron of Hell are kind of lame because they all just use the Doomblade. That's about it, though.
I don’t think a game could ever be perfect but Doom Eternal is very VERY close to it. id is strolling along the right direction at breakneck speeds. They just need to jump over a few small issues. Honestly, Eternal is the game that scratched an itch I had for years that only a few FPS and action games could. Now when I get back to playing COD and other similar games they just feel so slow. Which makes sense considering that most games nowadays aim for realism which is fine. But this game for me proves that you don’t need to make it all grounded and realistic to have a memorable and enjoyable experience.
I played through entire doom 2016 spamming super shotgun, gauss gun. Never thought of ammo management, never cared about how i played against different enemy types. Played in a brain-dead manner. Started eternal and died in the first level to the spiders without any ammo left. Got frustrated and immediately went to reddit and youtube searching for someone validating my frustrations regarding the measly ammo provided. Found your earlier video by chance and listened to what you had to say, and then played like it was designed to be played. This was the most fun gaming experience I ever had thanks to you. I just felt like a god when quick switching, dashing, jumping, grenading, burning the demons. Thank you for this, will forever be grateful to you and looking forward for the future content.
Agreed. In Doom 2016 I kept doing the stun mod for plasma rifle + super shotgun combo. Perhaps not the fastest way of killing demons, but it was certainly a very easy way of cheesing through most of the game and it only didn't work in bossfights for obvious reasons. I still enjoy that game but I think it will be pretty hard to go back to after playing Eternal. Eternal is probably the one I'd replay much more in years to come.
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i did not like halo 5. just saying. 4 was tolerable for me. but 5 no way josey and the poosy cats
heres a point you cant refute doom eternal locks you into a certain way to play the game you have to weapon switch you have to use the flamebelch and you have to use the chainsaw. doom 2016 feels like a much more friendly game to play. the reason why you get push back for your opinion is your willfully ignoring the fact nobody who was casual with doom 2016 decided to play like you did. YOU are the minority and the game should have not been designed to appease that subsection of players. its just like 7 days to die making every house some parkour dungeon because a few youtubers wanted to make parkour challenges in the alpha prior. its a 1to1 comparison in both cases the game was changed to appease a Very small subsection of the player base which in turn alienates the MAJORITY of the player base.
i loved doom 2016. then eternal happened. and i believe to be for intense than 2016
@@zeroph3849 Agreed that people who casually played Doom 2016 didn't develop the playstyle that I did. And that's the point. The developers see that its a much more interesting and fun way to play, and that's the game they wanted to make in the first place. They made a much better game. And it doesn't alienate the "MAJORITY" of the player base. The majority of the player base absolutely loves the game. And there are lots of people who have been shown by Doom Eternal a whole new world of possibilities and love it.
The last few minutes of your speech made me tear up a little.... don’t know if that’s normal or not, but I felt a sting in my heart when you said arena shooters are rare to come by mostly because it’s true and when you said Doom Eternal was that large leap of hope that came out of nowhere a tear of joy almost want to burst out because you’re right, this damn game was a MASSIVE relief from everything I played.... I know that sounds weird and sappy.... idk is it weird and sappy?...
"this game don't let me be creative!" -the guy that spam super shotgun entire doom 2016
Be true to the man me is rus rus can proof enemy to dust
Yes. I want to spam my SSG, and I don't like the game artificially limiting my ammo supply.
@@LURKTec then use cheats to do that
@@absolutepineapple4115 Why the fuck should I use cheats when the game could have given me a reasonable amount of ammo instead?
@@LURKTec You play by game's rule not reverse.
"The fun zone" is what makes me still replay doom eternal to this day. I can't imagine myself getting bored with it.
I just realised that the ripatorium updates as we play, with new demons, and insane fights. I have something to do until the end of times now
Yeah me too. I always watch Mayo because this guy studies the game. I too had linear type of play because of doom 2016. I died more than 10 times on my first nightmare playthrough. But then I decided to read tutorials. Infos about demons etc. And most importantly, watching various strategies on TH-cam to find the best suitable one for me. Sure, I should have been able to figure that out. But doom 2016 just made my brain like a robot: rocket lock, plasma canon vise versa. Now I can fight Marauder in 4 different ways and kill it in less than a minute. Thanks to the variety of options available to deal with the demons. The fun zone is that for me.
I'm not saying 2016 is a bad game. It is the best game ever made before eternal for me.
I feel like the main reason people complain about eternal is because it can be a bit overwhelming. Personally i love the game and have played through it multiple times. The key difference imo between 2016 and eternal is that in eternal you have to think. 2016 is for the most part point super shotgun repeat. Eternal requires a state of self awarness that 2016 didnt which is what makes it so engaging but some people just prefer mindless violence i guess. 2016 wasnt bad but it got stale quickly for me eternal has yet to get boring over half a dozen playthroughs later.
it's called the doom dance, idot
I feel bad for ID because they spent years making doom eternal and people are so stupid and don’t understand the amazing combat system ID made
I think I like every single DOOM game by id (yes, even DOOM 3, let's fight), but man I feel so bad for every combat I have seen before DOOM: Eternal.
This is a issue with all complex games. Have you seen all the whiners coming out of the woodwork after the last mhw update?
@@procow2274 what's up with that? can you elaborate? i might just come back to the game
Most of the casual audience want to fall into a "comfortable" playstyle and expect to get rewarded for it. That's why 99% of AAA games are designed to validate any kind of play.
It’s a matter of taste. I love the combat in Doom Eternal, but I truly miss the sprawling exploration-vania level design and the mod-support of the original.
People don’t understand the at one of the biggest drivers of creativity are, ironically, limits.
So true!
well you need some brain to realize that limits force to get innovation to eventually surpass the limits. Can´t expect that from the nowadays average shmo gamer.
@@DjTrustNo.1 definitely cant expect that considering COD is still one of the best selling franchises and people still buy their games yearly.
yes.
but Ultrakill exists.
that game doesnt limit anything or forces u into playing optimally via negative enforcements but encourages skill expressiveness. the skill floor is as low as it can possibly get at prologue missions but the skill ceiling is beyond the sky.
not saying this as a criticism , but watching this vid 3:47 made me realize why mayo has such " unpopular " opinions about ultrakill's combat system. some rules are nice, but they are not set in stone u can ignore them and still come up with something unconventional that is truly incredible. Eternals purpose is to overcome ur enemy, Ultrakill's purpose is to dispatch enemies stylishly
@@btchiaintkidding7837 I don't play either game, but you're absolutely on point.
If negative reinforcement is the only path offered in a videogame that you have
to pay money for - then it's just a straight up bad and/or lazy design. A truly great
developer incorporates all gameplay options, thus maxing out potential customers.
Doom2016 didn't go wrong on this one. It did, when it introduced a lot of wasted space
in the levels and tons of downtime with enemies-out-of-thin-air lazy designer's gimmick.
DmC was an excellent example of doing things right.
7:40 "Forced to burn enemies to get armor while fighting"
*Laughs in upgraded Super Shotgun.*
Doesn't Meathook give less armor than Flame Belch?
@@williams8977 Yes, do you think I care though? I'm hookshotting into demons with a flaming grapple hook to fill them full of double barreled fury, it could give 1 armor and I will still abuse it.
@@PokeBattlerJaze 😨 he's a mad man...
@@PokeBattlerJaze dude I do that with my chainsaw.just meathook into enemies then chainsawing them is the best combo for me. rip and tear brother
I don't see anything wrong with that
"Doom Eternal Doesn't let me use only one gun the entire game so it's bad" dope video dude people still complaining about it when the devs have said so is pretty dumb
I think that people who genuinely dont like the game for that reason are fine. But people definitely shouldnt be saying the game is bad for that.
People complain about not being 2016’s Siege Mode Gauss Cannon SS all the way it’s sad lmao
Enemies that just stand out in the open, shooting is not fun.
Rydz your opinion man but the demons only chill around until they notice you as soon as you get in the arena they will all focus you
They think that cheesing the game with 1 weapon is a way of playing. “I’m gonna do a SS round and play only using the shotgun” that type of shit. That’s why they complain about the game forcing to play its way, it’s just an excuse they have to not learn the gameplay.
The game makes me... *gasp* PLAY IT?
0/10, games should be movies.
Tell them to watch doom annihilation then make them watch a doom playthrough make them decide which is better
@@CAT-vn3jl LMAO
Thats what journalist difficulties are for in games.
Literally every single ign review
Even Clockner dislikes Doom Eternal. Sad to see.
Hope ID Software knows that they have done great worke. Eternal is just amazing
Who's clockner? Never heard of him
Whoa really i did not expect that from clockner
that got me off guard i must admitit i tought he would have loved the game because he played in Doom 2016 in the fun zone and was even mentioned himself by hugo in an interview so i tought things were not going to change so much for him but apperantly he conplained about ammo, chainsawing and even the freaking platfoarm i could nt believe it
That makes me sad
So he actually played like he was supposed to play Eternal yet he dislikes it???
Well sucks for him I still replay the campaign it's the best shooter I've ever played and it made me an even better player
You're wrong, Im right, I win, bye bye
your nitpicking and biased i win bye bye
R/whoosh, R/whoosh, i win, R/whoosh
wow, hes right and he wins, crazy
sorry I won't argue again have a good day
I lose, huh.
The fact that DOOM ETERNAL needs defending kinda shows how spoiled we are
I mean I think that's a pretty flawed argument. It's pretty debatable to begin with that it really "needs" defending since it sold great and most people do seem to like it.
Sure some people disagree, but there isn't any game out there that won't have its detractors and I think ID knows this as well, and is unlikely to take these complaints too seriously.
@@coaxill4059 You can actually see that in the latest update, they fixed the marauder with the ice bomb exploit so you couldn't melt him in like 3 seconds and they made the fight with the gladiotor harder, this goes tho show that people bitching about Doom Eternals combat are not in Id's mind.
I think of these videos more as a celebration of it's design, inspired by the desire to respond to criticism. It's a jumping off point to talk about what i really wanna talk about.
@@megatherium100 And thank god.
Under The Mayo “NOOOOOOO MAYO!!!, you can’t possibly enjoy things that I don’t like”
Mayo: “YES”
"You can't be creative in this game"
Me: How bout I do *anyway*
History of japan
i am neptune
@@Dondlo46 I am dondlo
@@Sierra-058 I'm Patrick
@@Access.Denied I'm Cow
Yeah this game gets a lot of flack for the dumbest reasons.
I got called up by Steam Support for calling Boomers bad players :y
The marauder is the games deserved flack. That much oops they are due. And the music fuckery. And the plasma gun.
cactuS Mann what’s wrong with the Plasma gun now?
@@digivagrant except old games are much harder and skill based than DE
@@cactusmann5542 Wait? What's wrong with the Marauder or Plasma Rifle? They both are implemented perfectly.
Hearing the complaint for creativity on Doom Eternal an old adage comes to mind... "Git gud"
amen to that Brother
Dill Pickle so doom eternal is a puzzle platformer and anyone who likes it is just a Hugo jr....yep sounds like a troll
@@jacoblbarton of course it s a troll
Dill Pickle
Well it’s a fact that that troll comment of yours up there is amazing. I love this Hugo Jr thing.
....Because not liking is a playstyle is about being good now? This playstyle is ass to play. Thats the argument. Difficulty was never part of it.
This seems like a kind of response towards Cry More Gaming.
I felt that too.
CryMor’s video was so bad, anyone could pick it apart.
Such a fitting name
Dill Pickle troll alert
Why so sour, Dill Pickle?
It’s really bad that mayo still needs to stand up for doom eternal because some people don’t have braincells
Yep
You wouldn't believe the notifications I wake up to everyday. So much rage. Even 4 months out.
@@underthemayo 4 months ? Wow
@Dill Pickle bro it's not funny anymore
@Dill Pickle stop harassing the doom community FOR 5 MINUTE
Casuals: "YoU CaNt jUsT mAKE DOoM A gAmE oF 4D cHesS"
Hugo:
Dill Pickle
And now you’re making threats, I love this so much.
@Dill Pickle You look like the kinda person to me who listens with their nose instead of their ears too, Eugene.
@Dill Pickle Pretty sure you're only saying this because you're not face to fave with them.
@Dill Pickle Git gud, boomer. Sorry the greatest game of all time doesn't live up to your 20-year old .wad collection lol
@Dill Pickle Sure you would.
When your trust you blood punch too much but forgot to recharge it. Punched a man-cubus, wait a minute*
:)
*your
wooosh....now you have 20hp
Hate when I do that!
@@asologic6045
Oh...well and now look who's waiting behind you :)
*SMILING CACODEMON*
who has not sketched the fat face of a Mancubus and thought, I'd better walk away
Eternal actually changed gaming for me. I was exactly that COD type guy that would only have one play style. When I started with Eternal, it was exactly like you said, I had to change my method of just only using one weapon and switch between all of the different weapons and always change my strategy no matter how many times I play through the game. It has actually just made me a better player overall in almost all the games I play. I know some people might not believe this, but it even helped me in games like Overwatch. It has really helped me adapt to the situation and whatever the enemy team was playing and how to beat them. (Also love the God of War 3 gameplay and comparison!!)
This comment right here. This is what it's all about.
How does it help in something like Overwatch? I know the original concept behind it was switching to meet demands of the enemy but the locking system they did broke that, and the whole ultimate economy thing punishes you for switching. I wanna improve as you did but I don't see how it helps
@@Chargedolt it helps just like I said. Like for example, although it took me awhile, I started to realize that if I see a Cree on the the enemy team when I was playing something like Doom or Genji, I would need to play more passive and play with my team more and look for better opportunities to go in and just dive without any coordination. Little things like that helped me. And also my aim got better too.
Exactly the same
@@Chargedoltdoom forces using ALL the options
The fact that there are people that complained about this type of combat design makes me think that these gamers aren't actually gamers.
Totally agree. This game was made SPECIFICALLY for gamers.
These are the same people who shout about how games aren't difficult anymore! Yet anything new or different is ignored.
@@spennythespoo I want to believe at least some of them know enough to not be "bad" per se, as in they can beat the game on Ultra Violence or even Nightmare if they stick to it. It's just they haven't played enough to realize the full depth of the tools at their disposal and so they think you are forced to always respond to scenarios in specific ways (like always using lock-on burst or ice grenades for anything problematic.)
To make an analogy, it's like the people who beat Dark Souls but complained about Sekiro for "forcing you to play one way". While it's true to an extent, a second glance at all the tools and combat arts you have will reveal there is definitely still a lot of creative freedom in how you approach a fight and how to be stylish. Would it be less efficient? Sure, but not by much, and doing well even then is what separates an excellent player from a good one.
Nah I think they're just game journalists pretending to be gamers
The game has enough tools available that your response to death should be "alright how TF do I kill this cocksucker?" Not "this game sucks I'm gonna quit". I feel scrubby enough when I say fuck it and use my Crucible, quitting would just make me feel like such a bitch, resorting to a single playstyle is bad enough.
You can’t be creative in Doom Eternal and other hilarious jokes you can tell yourself.
DOOM Eternal is bad game because its good. 0/69
Lol
*confusion intensifies*
420/69
Exactly my thoughts. 2016 was just super shotgun+ gauss Cannon. Still a damn good game, but eternal allows way more creativity. And people say it doesn't
*i want Skyrim fridge edition*
I play on PS4 and spam remote dotonation rockets because I don’t need to aim.
@@armouredraptor9610 I want Skyrim Doom Eternal Combat Complexity edition.
@DarkSonic180 it does my boy. You can use multiple tactics, instead of just ss+gauss Cannon. Example. 3 mancubus, 2 revenant, 3 cacos, 5 arachnatrons, 10 shield guys,in groups of 5. Walk up to the first shield group, plasma, other group with arachnatron, ice nade, rocket launcher, fodder enemy, glory kill, caco, frag, etc. How would that fight go in 2016
@DarkSonic180 does 2016 offer more creativity then?
It honestly is so nice to play a game that doesn’t assume the player is dumb
making colorful ammo that automatically picks up was pretty stupid...
what's the difference what color the ammo is when you don't have to manage it
why change colors at all
@@ryszakowy
So you recognize it at a distance and rush towards it?
DOOM eternal does think you’re pretty dumb if it has to spell out everything for you through a window though.
@@ryszakowy are you saying you want the gameplay to slow so you can look at a menu and see what ammo you need? Did i get that right? Because if so that's a terrible idea
A game doesn't lack creativity just because YOU lack creativity.
eternal doesn't limit creativity, it punishes you for spamming super shotgun the whole game
DarkSonic180
😒
DarkSonic180 do you need to reply to every comment or reply that disagrees with your opinions and view point. The original (2016) DOOM was indeed fun but not much creativity you need to just move, dodge, and shoot, Eternal though gives tons of enemies with unique weaknesses the video has a whole section showing this maybe you should watch it.
@@blubettle1191 I agree that is doesn't incentivize creativity, but its objective is to make you have fun, some people will like spamming super shotgun, and I, not having Eternal as I can't afford it, bought recently the 2016 one, and it has combat depth, not as much as Eternal, but it's so much fun oneshoting eyeballs with one weapon, switch to the minigun to kill a hell baron, etc, so it really let's you have fun, use your creativity and being stylish in the process
Honestly the only game I think lacks creativity that encourages it is Just Cause 3. In Just Cause you’re encouraged get creative with your tethers to cause massive destruction, but you’re never incentivized to do it, you’re not given any unique examples of things you can do that perhaps you didn’t think of, and there’s no story missions that take advantage of the mechanic. If you want to finish the game just blowing everything up with guns and explosives you can do that it, but that becomes extremely boring. In Just Cause 3 you’re basically forced to get creative if you want to enjoy the game, which isn’t great because it means the devs put little effort into the gameplay and integrating the tether system into it since you honestly never HAVE to use it save for a select few instances.
I have been playing for trophies now on Doom Eternal and ones like “can’t improve on perfection” where you can only have one sentinel crystal and praetor upgrade really force me to get gud and learn how you should play with less resources, it’s actually more fun for that trophy and starting nightmare soon
I agree. One of the smartest things the put in the game. It very subtly encourages the player to think about the upgrades not just as a path to 100% efficiency, but also as a way to shape their experience.
Doom eternal feels like a character action game to me, the likes of bayonetta and devil may cry (especially DMC 5). Let me explain a bit. In a character action game you are given a few number of weapons, skills, and combos. Just like doom eternal gives you those as well. But the similarity doesn't even start there. It's the gameplay. In doom eternal you are constantly pushed by enemy but you are also highly capable of pushing back as long as you are skilled enough and able to pull some "combos", you also have to think on the battle arena focusing on certain enemies to eliminate first and using all of your arsenal and abilities to survive and pull off crazy moves. Just like in a character action games where the game put you in an arena full of varied enemies for you to focus on, and just like in Doom Eternal you either have to buckle up and be better at the game, or be "boring" and get killed in an instance. I always feels like being killed or having a moment of mistake in those games (including Doom Eternal) is my fault and it gives a feeling that I can be better next time. The satisfaction comes after you become really good at mastering the arena, the character, the weapons, and other aspects of the game. To me Doom eternal is not a first person shooter, it is a character action First Person Shooter.
I hope this makes sense. Sorry if its a little confusing, English is a second language.
Rip and Tear
You should check out ultrakill
@@raymondmagtanong downloading the demo currently... heard really awesome things about it
I was gonna say, Ultrakill is amazing. Maybe I’m just burned out out on Eternal, but I’ve been having more fun with Ultrakill
Completely agree, started getting the same feeling from playing it I would from playing DMC or Bayonetta
That's basically the reason I love this game (I'm a sucker for the character action genre), it perfectly captures the katharsis of just pulling off all the stunts, combos and decisions in the most stylish and efficient way possible. I've seen a lot of people compare it to dark souls, and though I can see why, I feel like Doom Eternal being the DMC of FPS is a more accurate depiction of the game. That and the fact that both games are about a demon slaying powerhouse, only that Doom has a sci-fi twist.
I also wanna add that The Marauder is basically Vergil gameplay wise, I do feel like he was a bit wasted given his concept. His intro is so badass, it really feels like a stand--off between equals, but that's about it. It also comes down to the fact that Lore wise the Slayer is basically untouchable which just cheapens the existence of the marauder, as really something like the Icon of Sin is a threat to him. They may be using him as a proof of concept for a Rival like enemy for the sequel, with an actual equal to the Slayer in all aspects. I know I extended myself with the whole Marauder rant/opinion (I actually love the him gameplay wise, just to make it clear), but I wanted to bring him up given how a lot of Character Action games like DMC, MGR:Revengence and Bayonetta tend to have a rival character (Vergil, Sam Jetstream , etc), I just wanted to point out how Doom Eternal had even the Rival aspect covered, even if it may have done it better... yep, this game is Hellfire defined.
My creativity is limited! D: I wanted to be a half elf mage! >:(
clockner: [plays Doom 2016 extravagantly]
id Software: That's it, that's the elusive Fun Zone that Doom Eternal needs.
clockner: I find it tiresome being forced to play in this style all the time
Under The Mayo: But... it's called The Fun Zone...
Fun, as long as you do it their way. IMO Freedom and creativity goes hand in hand, and dont tell me something is creative when its limiting you to play in a very specific way.
That exactly the thing that doesn't make any sense to me. The devs made DE's fun zone based on clockner's style of playing Doom 2016, and then he ended up being completely wrong about it. Not liking it is fine, people have different taste but man, it was clockner! All he had to do was to play DE like he played Doom 2016 and it was going to be completely fine. Wth!
nem tudom the. game. doesn’t force. you. to. play. one. way. the only thing it does is prevent you from spamming ssg all the time
Clockner was a complete idiot about Doom Eternal.
@@yourewallsareveryconvenien8292 He was also really toxic when people disagreed with him. I used to think he was sensible, but he's just fucking stupid
Friendship ended with Clockner. Now Under the Mayo is my best friend.
Yes
Just because he dont like eternal? Wow thats a whole new level of being a fanboy
This is right
@@Jack_War he is not wrong
. And clockner was being a total idiot
@@arexgamer7131 having a different taste is bad wtf is wrong with these doom eternal fanboy omg🤦🏻♂️
there are more options to do stuff in eternal because of everything that holds you back. less ammo, more aggressive ai, no punch escape, etc. there is no spamming ssg and ballista all the time, you’ll run out of ammo. standing still with just kill you instantly. so you must get creative. how are you going to move, up and down or in a circle? what weapons combo’s do you know? got trapped in a corner? you can ice grenade out, regular grenade out, chaingun shield or spray plasma. if anything DOOM Eternal has *more* creative options!
This, this is incredibly true to me. I believe that creativity doesn't stem from the absence of limitations but the establishment of rules. That's why I like the system of Eternal, because with setting limitations on the player, they also incentivize different strategies to use.
@@praphet6669 There's a saying, "limitations breed creativity"
Often times creativity stems from saying "How do I get around this limitation or utilise it to its fullest potential?"
Elvin Henrik Elum
Exactly, too much freedom is limiting since there is always gonna be an easy way to complete a task. It reaches the same goal in the most efficient way. You’d be stupid to not spam the SS in Doom 2016.
In Eternal, your limitations bring out all the creativity possible. Here you’re stupid FOR spamming the SS.
DarkSonic180
You keep using that “objectively” word but I don’t think you actually understand what it means. I also think you don’t know as much about game design as you think you do.
Literally every well-designed game encourages (or in your language “forces”) you to play within a certain framework, yet allows the player to experiment within that framework and come up with their own strategies to overcome the game’s obstacles. Even 2016 was like this to an extent, you can’t really play 2016 like a cover shooter or CoD, you’ll get swarmed and murdered right away.
Wrist Rocket Watcher
Don’t waste your time, he’s a troll and doesn’t actually have any arguments. This isn’t the only time he’s said this.
That's one of the biggest lies that I've ever heard because of me self discovering how to shotgun grapple through the air and rocket fire back at any enemy in the ground without getting self damage
How the hell did you discover that
Man, I can't tell you how glad I am that you made this video, I've been harping on this concept since day 1. As a musician, I tend to liken other skill-based activities to music, and Doom Eternal leaves so much room for interpretation and improvisation. Frequently when playing Doom I walk into a room with a general gameplan. Often times at some point in the fight the plan goes to hell, and I'm forced to react accordingly or I'm dead. Thinking on the fly is extremely important and I love how reactionary this game is. To be successful the player must not only be good on the sticks (or whatever PC players say) but also have great movement and comprehension of the situation at hand. Much like the best musicians have not only great technique, but wonderful expression and musicality. Players who have great technique but no expression are boring, and expressive players who miss notes or are out of tune aren't fun to listen to either. And just like 2 players might play the same tune a different way, 2 players in Eternal can play the same room and win but look completely different in the process. Id really did achieve something special with this game's single player.
👍🏽
As a casual player Idk how people can't grasp eternal's gameplay, it should be common sense but I guess it depends on the person's level creativity and on top of that I have a general understanding that when I play a game I already ha e expectations of what can be possible and what might not be. But to me it's as simple as learning a new tool or machine.
I think most people can grasp it, we just dont like it. Apples to oranges.
@@nemtudom5074
No, complaining there is too little ammo isn’t grasping it.
@@masterdeity3400 i think it’s more some people do simply like being able to use whatever they want when they want, even if i’m not in this group. Imo people simply don’t realize one of the biggest driving forces in creativity is limits set into place.
@@TheMissinLink
I guess so. It’s frustrating to see people complaining about petty things that can literally be nullified with a change in mindset.
“You can’t be creative in this game”. Fine. Get a digital tablet and start a webcomic if creativity is your aim. Or write a goddamned novel. Or play freaking MINECRAFT. Oh, you mean “I’m not fast enough or clever enough to be creative in this game”? Welcome to the club. I ain’t either. I’m a scrub. But I know that’s on ME, and don’t snivel about it.
I don't care how creative a game is.
All I want is to have fun.
That last bit is so relatable to me when it comes to Dark Souls and people constantly wanting the difficulty to be lowered
@@ThisisKyle i like the difficulty as it is, i mean sure i get my ass kicked most of the time but if feels just so rewarding after finishing each boss fight
The point of the game is to be fun . Doesn't matter what mechanics or genre it belongs to
Elite Sturmgewehr then lower the difficulty. Im not trying to be insulting, actually on my first run i was on im too young to die, but it could be fun with lower difficulty, and you can just have fun with it.
I definitely gotta say, I was really surprised when Clockner said he felt like there wasn't enough ability to be creative in the new game
same i was really shocked, i mean he played 2016 like eternal, but doens´t like eternal, i dont get these people.
@@Raber123ful i dont like either, i want to play in the way that i want its a shooter game, if i want to think and be skillful, i’ll play sekiro, that its way more satisfaying with his mechanics and instant kill parry
@@madafaka4532 first of all what parry, theirs only the deflect and mikuri counter, neither if which are insta kill just raise posture level
I play on PS4 and recently beat Brawler mode on Nightmare and it just goes to show that after months of playing the game how much of a fresh experience something like Brawler can be, it's the same weird argument when I hear people complain that Battlemode doesn't have enough variety or creativity, the gameplay is so dynamic!
Anyway cheers for Brawler mode Mayo :)
What amazes me the most about Eternal is that in Doom 2016, i used the infinite ammo rune that allowed you to have infinite ammo so long as you remained above a certain health or shield percentage, so it rewarded skillful movement.
But in Eternal, the Infinite Ammo cheat doesnt feel good to use because it breaks the core gameplay loop, and that loop is so absurdly fun to play and get creative with, that having infinite ammo just makes the game boring.
The criticism of Doom Eternal's combat is pretty much the same if people complained about the stamina system in Souls games or that you can't just hack and slash away and come out on top. The game just does not work that way and when you get to the required mindset and learn to use and abuse the mechanics it becomes a playground of destruction with an exceptionally high skill ceiling. No longer frustratingly hard, it becomes tough but fair, fun and punishing. The challenge becomes an incentive to get better as a player and master the game.
I agree with you, Strapping Young Lad era Devin Townsend.
Doom 2016 made you feel like a badass.
Doom Eternal Makes you BECOME a badass.
I agree, but new players likely don't realize that stuff like faltering and switching weapons to cancel "reloads" are key elements of combat.
Luckily, there are tutorials for that.
@@masterdeity3400 I feel that they should have done tutorials or pop-ups. The falter loading screen tip shows up rarely, and so does he quick switch.
Doom 2016 was showing what the world of Doom could be on modern hardware, Doom Eternal is the Epitome of Arena FPS.
After playing eternal for 3 months, I went back and replayed 2016 all over again, and I found that eternal made me a better player. Back when I first got it, I really only used the super shotgun and the gause cannon. But now that I've been locked in on eternal I found that I naturally cycle through all the weapons and I found that I naturally used my chainsaw more frequently than I used to do out of habit. Ended up making it more fun for me, and I ended up playing on a harder level than I originally had played. Was pretty cool.
Finished 2016 off the bat in Nightmare difficulty and it was indeed fun and I have never had the problem of "super shotgun goes brrrr!" that so many had. If they had this problem they just had to adjust the difficulty up, problem solved.
In Eternal? Did the same: nightmare directly and when I understood that I will have to abuse the weapon selection wheel (that I have never used in 2016 because it is utter shit and I'm playing on PC) and the sniper rifle that slows down time I was like "OK, that's not Doom, sorry" *uninstall + refund*
I want speed and momentum in my Doom game. Stuff that makes me pause the game for me to do ANYTHING goes completely against that and that's not Doom nor an arena shooter.
@@Draclord35 the sniper rifle only slows down time when you have a specific rune on, did you check that bit?
@@Draclord35
So the best way to prove your argument is to lie? Ok.
There is a way to play DOOM Eternal with one gun and no chainsaw: you have a ton of cheats available!
Plus I got my non-fps-player friend to try Eternal on "i'm too young to die". And you know what? Despite the game being super easy and forgiving, by the end of the first level he learnt to snipe arachnotron turrets and feed caco with grenades. So I'm sure our new DOOM could even be an amazing introduction into fps genre for those who almost never played such games before.
P.S.
Brawler run felt amazing. Are you a game designer, dude?
i'd want him to be hired
My friend who doesn’t play fps games couldn’t get past the first encounter in doom eternal on im too young to die. As the demons ran up to him and started hitting him he started panicking and staying still and spamming the punch button which doesn’t do shit to the enemies even tho i told him it’s useless. He ragequitted and never touched the game again
The comparison of Eternal to old God of War (options mattering, encouraging skilled play) and DOOM 2016 to new God of War (options not mattering, encouraging degenerate play) was spot on. You have a real talent for game design analysis, nicely done!
I agree with everything in this video and absolutely love doom eternals approach and execution of the game flow, but in 2016s defense “shoot it until it dies” is doom in its purest form. Also, despite the harder push for weapon diversity, the holy trinity of 2016 is still there. Once you have the ballista/gauss rifle, rocket launcher, and SSG you don’t need anything else. Eternal does the mandatory weapon diversity very well, but not enough to stop me from endlessly cycling through the holy trinity for 80% of the game.
Yeah it's true. Knowledgable players will always have something to exploit. Much more important in my opinion is guiding new players into the system and not letting them fall into a boring one weapon playstyle. And then the game is dynamic enough to play new ways like limiting which weapons you use for a new experience.
Under The Mayo and that’s where brawler mode comes in haha. Yeah, all my friends that I’ve ushered in to doom eternal gets the same advice: all your abilities and weapons are tools, you don’t sink a screw with a hammer, you use a screwdriver. And farther down the road you may find a new tool that does the job better; aka a screwgun is to a screwdriver what the ballista is to precision bolt. I’ll point out which weapons they can lean on if they’re in a serious pickle, but I purposefully refrain from making the holy trinity known from the start.
@@underthemayo all they want is the same shit all over again like a game with completely mindless shooting and no story, now ain't that wrong?
@@underthemayo id software for the sake of doom eternal we want a co op horde mode
SSG+Ballista+Rocket is very powerful but only works optimally when you’re at close range for the SSG shot, this may put you in a bad spot momentarily. In situations where closing in is not an option, it is actually more optimal to switch the SSG for the Precision Bolt. Plus to use the alpha combo like that you’ll also need to have some understanding of the faltering mechanic.
14:50 Man those are some really emotional sentences, "there's an ocean of other games for you, we got something we were hungry for since the death of arena fps games"
They only say this because they can't play their way i.e sHoOt D'oNt tHiNk
They don’t want to say it, but all they really want is a mindless shooter with just a few options in each fight. Somehow that is more choice tho lol
Dill Pickle
You’re getting good man, keep up the good trolling.
@Dill Pickle that's the point. doom forces you to think instead of mindless shooting
Doom is indeed about how fast you react, twitch aiming, spatial awareness, speed. A game where you have to pause to cycle through your arsenal isn't that.
I want an instinctive, fast game, simple yet hard to master. Eternal isn't that.
Platforming and level design in Eternal was fine though. Had no issue with that.
Yes, because all the Cod games are are you shooting without thinking. You know Black Ops 1 and 2 singleplayers, shooting without thinking, Modern Warfare games, shooting without thinking, Cod: Infinite Warfare, shooting without thinking. At face value, they might seem the case but if you pay attention to the story then it becomes more than just shooting without a purpose. Plus, those games have good stories and memorable chracters, something Doom had to sacrifice for gameplay. Doom may be good, but it doesn't make every other fps game dog crap. Doom Eternal is like the Red Dead 2 and Witcher 3 of the fps genre. Sure it's advancing and challenging what the games could be, but it doesn't make the games that came before it bad. Stop acting as if you guys are the intellectuals of the gaming community. If people don't want to give Doom a chance, then that's their choice as consumers. Not their IQ score.
I've been trying to incorporate the options you've brought to my attention. Microwace, Remote Detonation, the Unmaker.
I've been trying to force myself to use option I was uncomfortable with.
And though some of the options felt good, and I'm using them more and more, there were some that didn't feel good.
I remember from your Ultra-Nightmare run, you mentioned how everyone kept telling you to use the Heavy Cannon Scope, but you didn't like it.
You said "fuck it. I'm gonna play my way." and you started using and loving Micro Missles.
I've been forcing myself to use options I didn't like, and it hindered my gameplay and my enjoyment.
I built my own style using the things I love, and it's made my time with Eternal so much better.
I recently just beat the base game and the Super Gorenest master level on Ultra-Nightmare.
Watching your videos has taught me so much, and has made the game so much more fun.
So thanks for teaching me so much with Eternal.
I'm currently practicing Ultra-Nightmare for the Ancient God p.1.
And I'm confident I'll beat it within the next month.
8:00 A really good point around there too. On reflection, as much as I talk about how easy it was to slip into the controls of 2016, getting into the gameplay rhythm was really hard for me, being only familiar with cover based FPS before that point like Wolfenstein. I died a lot until I got used to what it was incentivizing me to do, just like in Eternal. A lot of stuff I wound up finding by accident, like "holy crap my plasma rifle burst and blood punch can disable weak points?! That's incredible! Good thing there was an incentive to experiment and a clear iconic sound effect to notice this mid-fight."
6:29 OMG. I 100% can relate to that. Whenever i play dusk multiplayer there is a select few group of players that complain in chat because Im doing X which is somehow unfair and i never understood why they don't just act on their observation. If you keep walking into the same trap over and over again maybe it's you who has to change their playstyle and not me.
The God of War analogy was perfect here, Mayo. Couldn't agree more. They made GoW (2018) that way, imo, due to the popularity of Dark Souls and Bloodborne. I love both of those titles, but I also missed the old GoW gameplay.
It was like Devil May Cry in a way. The more flashy combos you pull of the more exp you gained to level your weapons. That was the era then, so they matched it to make the player more comfortable while adding a certain challenge to the mix.
I love that at 7:10 you go through all these ways to deal with the arachnotron, yet you’re making the point for all these other games you complain about.
Yes, you can use sticky bombs and remote detonate and other weaker stuff, but guess what? Triple rocket and balista/ss are the strongest things in the game, objectively. By your own logic, why would you use any of that other garbage when you can just stick to the strongest thing(something you complain about with other games constantly)? And don’t give me “the ammo economy!”, since the game basically has infinite ammo with the infinitely respawning zombies and recharging chainsaw.
Could it be that you’re just incredibly biased and will “have fun” with Doom but not other games?
Are you saying you disagree and the game dose limit strategy?
I still think that this complaint comes from excessive tutorials and definitely not from the gameplay itself as the issues completely dissappear, once you understand how it works. I myself got caught in that a couple of times. Most people think that if youre told something in the tutorial, then thats the right, best way of doing things. It isnt always. Especially in Doom Eternal. What that overreliance on tutorials does is that it kills the feeling of creativity. I kept failing to really progress in the Marauder boss fight, until I gave up, began to try to just feel the combat, and started combining remote detonation rocket launcher with a ballista. It was cheap, but effective and I got it in 3 tries after that. It also became my training wheels, for the generic takedown with SSG and ballista and later on more effective solutions. Doom Eternal has a lot in common with Dark Souls when it comes to thinking about enemies and situations. You observe and adapt, but the right way of fighting cannot be neatly summed up in a couple of sentences. Sometimes even whole paragraphs are not enough. Just see Dark Souls wikis for boss fighting strategies. That is thoroughly unfeasible for tutorials. But encouraging experimentation, while not getting hung up on things, is the way of achieving that goal. The great thing about game designs of these games is they tap into different skills each particular player has. The fact that we all play these game somewhat differently, preffering different combat style, different skills to rely on different situations IS what creative gameplay is. And if its not, then I have no idea what gameplay encouraging creativity is.
Basically like most tutorials, they're kinda counterproductive since they have to go by "the player is an idiot, here's what you can do" Which is why Doom Eternal should have taken a Metroid route and just gave them a weapon and then an arena where they can use it. No show and tell just let them do with what they just got.
You can turn off the tutorial. People who use it are most likely people who are newer players, I think they’re smart enough to know that the tutorial is an indication of what you can do with the gameplay system. It’s not the finality of your options.
Having never played any ”true” FPS games before. (Metroid Prime doesn't count) I plan to turn off tutorials.
The worst tutorial in the game is probably the Marauder. The sweet spot middle zone that it vaguely tells you to be in garbage advice and has only exacerbated peoples poor play against him. They should have simply said don't stop constantly moving, run away from him, let him attack you and than counter.
@@masterdeity3400 most gamers are to Low IQ to get it with how many whining is going on about eternal. If they are to stupid to under stand a tutorial is a guide not the end all to be all then they are just not normal human beings.
Someone once said having constraints actually creates creativity. Imagine having someone drawing on a blank paper, many will find it difficult to come up with something creative. Imagine having someone coloring one of those color-the-dinosaurs books, people will start drawing cannon on dinosaur's back and various crazy stuff.
here's the cool thing: weak points can be shot with almost any gun in doom eternal. After beating D:E on Nightmare, killing arachnotron weak points was a choice between using like 3 or 4 different weapons. Ice bomb enables even more. You could ice bomb, then rocket the turret off, if you wanted to. The limits are all in the players head.
I think some people just look at creativity differently. While you and I see creativity as having multiple efficient tactics that you can pull out in different situations, others see creativity as just, "can I do whatever I want and it still works?" It's a different definition of what "the fun zone" is to them. Choosing the weapon they like to use and claiming it as "their main" and being able to take on everything with it is fun to some people, and that's ok. It's just not what Doom Eternal offers, and lots of other games do that style better. I enjoy Doom Eternal more than other fps options because it takes this specialization approach to weapons, but I can see where these people are coming from when they think of creativity in a different way and are offput by eternal.
Yeah, well said. I don't think "creativity" is the right word here, but rather "freestyle", or "freedom". Some people just want to have the freedom to stick to a favorite and try to make it work in almost any situation. Sure, if some find it boring, I'm not gonna argue with them, fun is subjective. But really, I don't think that should be a problem, as long as they're having fun, right ?
I for one like Doom 2016 more for allowing more player choice (although I didn't stuck to one weapon, contrary to what others might think). It was also the case in the classics. Eternal, while a good product, sadly couldn't keep me hooked the same way. Thankfully, mods managed to scratch that itch, if a little. So that's that.
I feel like doom eternal just separates the skilled from the spammers
*dumb
Dill Pickle
No man, don’t go like that. You’re a good troll, I don’t want you turning into DarkSonic180.
A lot of complaints I have heard come from people who were hyped for an "old doom" experience, and who disliked the mechanics that you more or less must master to be good(weapon switching, the gadgets etc.).
Doom Eternal is great, and I really believe some of these complaints come from different expectations expressed in a wrong way, and not stupidity or ignorance.
Beau James
Definitely, trolls are everywhere. Dill pickle, DarkSonic180 are the prime examples.
Beau James
See?
I love how some of the troll reply got deleted. But even then the messages are so unoriginal that you can guess what they are based on the response.
I think doom eternal is a key piece that'll forever be a major part of the doom dance since every demon has a weakness and every gun serves a different purpose and the resource management is great since you have to run around the battlefield looking for a fodder demon to chainsaw for ammo which really brings up some adrenaline but in doom 2016 you could shoot the super shotgun 30 times but now its been put to a reasonable 12 shots
The game is literally designed to force you to utilize every tool and opportunity the game has to offer, not their fault you can't manage your resources and react appropriately.
DarkSonic180
Exactly, those who can’t play should complain and instead get better.
@DarkSonic180 if you think it's bad game design, that's fine. But to say it like it's objectively bad is verifiably false.
@DarkSonic180 ah, a troll I see
DarkSonic180
No, you are a troll. Why do you think I keep leading you on? Your responses put a smile to my face, that’s how bad they are.
DarkSonic180
Ah yes, ID Software has paid me, a 16 year old teen living with in his grandmothers room, to comment on every video I see that Doom Eternal is good.
I literally beat the game on Ultra-Nightmare about 30 minutes ago and can vouch that I had not been able to do it without using my imagination to adapt to situations on the fly. Yes, there are battles that play out much the same way every time, but they are very rare, especially compared to Doom 2016. Id created a masterpiece and I hope they know it!
Doom eternal did what no other shooter has and that is make everything from ammo to health up to players. You don't need to find armor, you make armor from flame belch and the SSG. Blood punch can be used to make health drops, not just glory kills. Regenerating chain saw charge allows for you chose when ammo drops in the fight as well as avoiding damage and giving a small break to check on where your equipment charges are. Doom eternal is a masterpiece of player choice in combat and excels in creating insanely high player skill ceilings.
Finding Ammo/Amour/Health pickup locations are still important but yea making enemies resource makes the combat frenetic. Its similar to bloodborne regain mechanic which rewards aggression.
@@fuckso2342 They are but the chainsaw rewards most ammo types and everyone chose different ways of handling weaknesses, the skill gap is born from the player scavenging the arena and the player who uses the tools to make what they need, chainsaw always has at least one charge, your glory kills never need to recharge and your flame belch and grenades are on a recharge that you control when you want them.
This reminds me of some complaints people make about certain scenarios in Age of Empires 2. As a strategy game, it's about emphasizing map control and resource control, knowing your civilization's strengths, and exploiting your enemies' weaknesses. For example, you can't play passively against a Goth player, because Goths can spam quickly-made, cheap infantry that will simply overwhelm you in the late game. You have to keep a Bulgarian player off of stone, or they'll take map control with Kreposts. The game actively discourages the player from being passive, especially on higher difficulties and in high ELO games. You have to multi-task your economy and your military, or the game is going to make you bleed. Sometimes, you have to rush your enemy to keep them from overwhelming you, like in the Honfoglalas mission, or in the 5th Alaric mission. But if that bothers you, you can just tone down the difficulty, just like you can with Doom.
I haven't played DE but as someone who did play through HD edition and knows the basics of build orders and stuff, I think a lot of those complaints were due to how the newer campaigns were structured (especially in the Forgotten where many levels were too scripted and shied away from base building.)
Nobody really minds the hard scenarios in Age of Kings partly due to nostalgia but also because they didn't just spam infinite units at you with too good tech. Honfoglalas however was a fucking horrible drag and easily one of the worst official scenarios I played. I eventually lucked out one time the Bulgars glitched out and had only idle villagers standing around though lol.
@@limonbattery Yeah, the infinite unit spam ruins the purpose of map and resource control, and I hate those kinds of missions. However, I really like Honfoglalas in DE--it was changed significantly from HD. the Bulgarians in that mission won't attack you unless you accept the Byzantines' offer, but you have to quickly defeat Moravia and keep East Francia off gold.
Bari and Le Loi are still absolute hair-pullingly hard. Bari is like Halo 2 on Legendary but in a strategy game.
"Having the freedom of options is POINTLESS if there isn't a purpose for each of those options."
After seeing the whole video, it is clear to me that I need to reevaluate my perspective on why and how I even enjoyed combat in various games such as Ghost of Tsushima, Persona 5, Skyrim, and even Command & Conquer 3.
That said, I have a counterargument quote to make:
"Having the freedom of options and not needing them is better than not having options and needing them."
A game is meant to be fun within the rules set, and a player should be able to enjoy playing specific ways no matter how uncreative it is. Players in general don't have fun to be creative, they want to minimize effort and maximize value to equate enjoyment. The options are there in order for a player to choose how they want to handle a scenario, not take into account of every little thing and assume the whole "Jack of all Trades" style.
I get it though. "Lack of creativity" is obviously false in Doom Eternal, and the video explains pretty darn well how that is false... but, if I find that the Heavy Cannon to be the most orgasmically awesome weapon, then I should be allowed to have ways to make it the only useful weapon in its own right rather depend on other weapons to proceed. In fact, limitation breeds creativity.
Why do you think many triple-A games lately tend to be unpolished, uninspired, and/or dare I say... uncreative, while plenty of Indie titles do something unique and bring something new despite limitations in funding and being rather specialized in gameplay terms? It's about keeping it simple, and maximizing the depth. Look at Celeste on Nintendo Switch.
I think that's all I got to say.
Yes, but doom 2016 the weapons did do different damage to enemies, so it did use some creativity.
Eternals weapons do different damage as well lol. The hell knights and barons of hell take more damage from the chaingun, just read the collectables
Game Journalists/Casuls: “Nooooo! You can’t just make the Super Shotgun not OP as balls and make us use actual tactics and thinking!
Under The Mayo/Hugo Martin: “Haha, high speed weapon swapping and fast paced intelligent gameplay go BZZ BUUUHH.”
Except, no game journalist has said that, and they rated the game higher than Doom 2016.
Also, it's the "hardcore" morons that are whining about it the most.
Brain: *exists*
People who complain about doom Eternal being too hard or different than 2016: wow this is worthless
I’m a casual when it comes to FPS games, but Doom Eternal is definitely one of those games that I gotta chill for a minute because of how intense shit gets
I love the vergil fight at the end of DMC 5 because he plays exactly like a player would, so you HAVE to make your own openings, you HAVE to dodge his attacks, and you HAVE to combo him. If you fail at this, he smokes you.
You mean you can't just "be creative" and spam the attack button?
@underthemayo Nope, and it feels great. The only other games that do this for me (besides Doom Eternal and DMC 5) are Ultrkill and Fromsoft games. It's like a comfort blanket of satisfying combat mechanics.
“You can’t be creative in this game”
Oh yeah and the UAC told me that demons are kind people
I talked to my cousin about this yesterday actually. From what I got out of the conversation, the tutorials kind of trick casual doom players into thinking that there is only one way to kill certain enemies. I somewhat agree though. If the tutorials were more suggestive like hints rather than show videos on “how to kill X” they wouldn’t stick to one way to kill stuff. Like the Doom Hunter being weak to plasma rifle shots to drop the shield. He thought that was the only way to kill it, but when I showed him blood punch pretty much deletes his hover tank after a few rockets he was like O_o.
I feel like some people saying that doom eternal wasn’t “creative” was just them saying they wanted more snapmap. Honestly I was disappointed to find I couldn’t make levels for doom eternal with all the new pieces that would be included
Yeah i really wanted a snapmap for eternal, i mean 40 of the 50 hours i spent on doom 2016 was in snapmap
so next time someone says a game doesnt support creativity, its just another way of saying the game doesnt make the least fun way to play viable
Id basically laughs at you when you ask them "Hey, what's your main?"
Doom2016 was closer to classic doom, where Doom eternal is something new. This isn't a bad thing, but some people are not going to be on board with the change. I personally feel Doom Eternal fits the mythos of doom guy becoming even more of a bad ass with each iteration. At some point he had to be strategic on a human level, but now hes motherfucking Dante.
Nope. Neither 2016 nor Eternal play anything like the classics. Both games play more like Quake, Painkiller and Metroid Prime than Classic Doom.
"when i stand still I die, so unbalanced.."
Super shotgun casual: WRYYYYYYYYYYY, YOU ARE FORCING ME TO USE DIFFERENT WEAPONS, THIS GAME SUCKS
Normal player: Y'all hear sum?
For people who didn't know, some of the runes portraying to glorykills regard the chainsaw as a gk (glorykill) runes like farther gk reach and speed buff from gk, meaning you can use the chainsaw as a means of movement too.
Doom has some of the same reasons why idiots hate other complex games like devil may cry 5. Extremely steep skill gap but people don't bother to test their skills.
As someone that's never been the best at DMC games, 5 just feels so good to play.
Even though I'm still painfully average at it, I feel like I've gotten a lot better at the game and it feels very rewarding to get better.
@@feedthemeat543f Glad to hear that bro. You at least try your best and you found out how satisfying it is to get good at it. I appreciate that.
@@LikeADamnFIDDLE I think Nero is probably the character I've had the most fun with.
He strikes the right balance between simple to play, yet there's enough depth to his mechanics to keep him interesting.
Dante is like a fighting game character with how much shit he has to his kit. Very rewarding to play but he can be pretty daunting sometimes.
V is....... unique. I like the unique approach, but I haven't felt like I've drastically improved with him like Dante and Nero
Ife Obasa
He’s a troll, don’t take him seriously.
Dill Pickle
Flattering.
DOom eternal is truly a beautifully crafted game. However, the only true downfall is that it really is tailored for PC play. Ive put many an hour of play through it on xbox, my rank is 114 now. Yes on console you have a weapon wheel and even being as fast as possible it still feels sloppy when switching weapons. It is not easy/smooth to switch between three different weapons within a few seconds as u can on PC. It really breaks up the gameplay, but it is manageable. Still, hats off to everyone at ID for such an awesome game.
You should watch SmvR he plays on PS4 and is a god at doom eternal
I do just want to say, this is also a casual vs hardcore thing.
Eternal forces some level of creativity in play yes, the thing is that Eternal's gameplay loop requires a certain level of base skill. This is exacerbated more if you're bad. Imagine a really bad player, they're struggling not to die 24/7, they can't kill enemies fast enough, they can't use their movement and abilities well enough not to get hit much. If you give them the tools of weapon switch combos like ballista super shotgun, that let them do enough DPS to kill enemies without dying, or tell them they can shoot an arachnotron turret off with the sniper shot, they feel forced to do that. They are not mechanically skilled enough to pull off the other options that exist like using a grenade to stagger enemies, and using a blood punch, while keeping track of other threats so as not to get boxed in. Due to their combination of skill and the game's incentivisation, it feels like the game is forcing them into a very set gameplay loop of use correct weapon to kill weakpoint, run around, damage, chainsawe for ammo, flame belch for armour, glroy kill for health. They're basically doing a checklist at that point, because they aren't capable of more skillwise. In 2016, I just went through ripping and tearing and it was fun, I wasn't there for challenge. In Eternal I felt off kilter (granted I hadn't been gaming a ton before eternal, but I'm still an experienced PC FPS player), because I had to learn how it wanted me to play, and I had to learn how to use almost all the tools it gave me decently. In most games you are not required to make use of everything given to you. In the Witcher on normal difficulty you do not need to engage with the oils and potions system for example, you can just hack and slash your way through the game. With Eternal my lack of familiarity and competence with what it wanted me to do (switch weapons, use combos, use chainsaw, manage multiple grenade cooldowns and flame belch, move effectively) meant that a significant portion of my time wasn't that fun. I felt like I was a little behind the curve of what it wanted me to do, and as a result didn't feel like the unstoppable badass that the game is constantly telling you, that you are. That's not to say I was dying 24/7, I probably died 2-3 times on normal, but my state of gameplay was largely mild stress, not enjoyable competence. There were points where that did line up, especially times like right before the marauder was introduced, and towards the latter few levels of the game, I'd gotten to grips with what the game had given me and it resulted in some of the most fun and intense singleplayer FPS experiences I've had. On the other hand, I can fully understand how someone worse than me especially, could come in and just have a shit time, because the game wants a level of competence from them they they aren't willing to give or can't reach, at least in a single playthrough.
Now these issues largely go away if you're willing to commit the time and want to do multiple playthroughs. If I played through again now, I would be in the enjoyable competence zone the entire time. The reality on the other hand is that most people do not play games multiple times. If I play something singleplayer, I am almost always there for the story and the experience, at this point I've experienced most of what the game has, and all of the story, I can get snippets of different experience if I replay (a harder fight, a master level with different enemies, but it's still largely the same), but I would rather just go play a different singleplayer game for an entirely new experience, or something multiplayer for replayability (like the Smash guy described, where a human opponent forces you to use every trick in your arsenal). I could also play through on a higher difficulty, but that's not what I play games for ironically even though I love souls. I've played though DS2 twice and 3 about 7 times. I don't actually play them because I like difficulty though. Their increased difficulty means that I felt like I really earned my victories (something Eternal does as well), but I also enjoyed the build variety, the extremely expansive and interconnected levels that reward exploration even across multiple playthroughs (this is huge, in DOOM for example I explore most of a level the first time through and don't feel any real desire to play it again and find the last few corners that have a figurine I didn't find, whereas in DS2 I missed entire optional bosses and things my first playthrough), the different NPC stotylines and lore that you literally cannot get in a single playthrough due to them locking you out of eachother. Now DOOM isn't the same as souls and it doesn't have to be. I'm just illustrating how most more casual players don't really have a reason to keep replaying and getting to the point where they have fun, they just play it once, game is hard, they have minimal fun and then they're done. My first DS2 playthrough was very intense and addictive for me, but I wouldn't describe it as fun most of the time, just intensely satisfying when I won. Now my second DS2 playthrough and 2nd+ ones of DS3 where I knew what I was doing, yes, that shit was fun as well as satisfying.
You mentioned the problem perfectly. Gamers are to lazy. It needs time to master Eternal. But if you do the real fun starts. You can do various combos. You can spent a crazy time in Etetnal. With other words it is its 60 bucks totally worth.
DarkSonic180
😒
Dill Pickle
Hey, what happened to Mommy Deity?
@@odin175lorenz5 The problem is that the initial hurdle of getting good at the game sours you wanting to actually go back and do it all over again. That's what happened to me. I got like, 99% of the way through the game and I was just... done, frustrated, resenting the game. The enemy that did it was the fucking Marauder, because I did not understand the mechanics and the fact that I am always aggressive. I NEVER stand back, I never wait, because I hate playing FPS games like that.
The Marauder's were the enemy that sapped the fun from the game the more I faced them, it left a bitter taste in my mouth. The rest of the game is decent enough. But I have no desire to ever try and pick it up, do all the secrets, because frankly, I don't want to engage with the combat loop due to negative feelings about it. Part of it might have been playing to much in one go, but yeah, just, not a game I want to revisit. That and the colour pallet of the game sucks balls. Ugly world to have to revisit, makes my eyes bleed for the most part.
ngl its harder to jump into doom 2016 when you start with doom eternal (speaking from experience)(just played doom eternal last december during 2022 for the first time) because i was used to the movements in doom eternal with the dashes which made it feel weird to be super slow in doom 2016 but i understood the approach
And plus, if you do want to run around with your favorite gun all day, the cheat codes allow you to do that, infinite berserk, overdrive, or quad damage, massively reduced damage, infinite ammo, all unlocks. There are so many things that cheat codes also allow players to do and can allow for even more creativity. For instance, I try to use an u popular weapon mod I don't normally use like full auto (I don't use full auto as I rely pretty heavily on the super shotgun) and I just go ham with it, having overdrive and infinite ammo makes the full auto insane.
Hot take: I agree with everything you said in this video, but after 95 hours in Eternal, went back to 2016 and I found that a much more relaxing and joyful experience, the game is incredibly laid-back and gives you the power fantasy directly, not saying Eternal's way of earning it is bad, I loved that too, but these days, having experienced both games and achieving 100% completion on both games, it's always 2016 I go back to moreso than Eternal for an instant adrenaline charge, people aren't wrong for disliking DOOM Eternal's gameplay loop and how different it is from 2016, I know one of the very best players of 2016: Clockner, doesn't like Eternal for these reasons too, and at first I was like: "No way dude, he's just missing it" but now ? I actually agree with him, some people would rather just be creative of their own volition rather than game's design.
An ideal future DOOM sequel would find a way to accomodate both fanbases, but both sides are so vehemently hateful of each other and are so divisive, ID will prolly do its own thing and hope people like it again, but hey they're doing great so far so....
It’s tough to know if catering to both crowds would satisfy either, it’s hard to sell a power fantasy while trying to execute Eternal’s challenge.
@@f3z087 Agreed dude, it's definitely a challenge, but ID are talented motherfuckers, I'm sure they'll manage just fine.
Pretty much any game let’s you be creative. If you’re willing to put in some limitations or if your willing to break the game a bit. Take speedruns for example, you won’t find more creativity anywhere else
I’ve bought this game seven days ago and...I love it. I finished DOOM 2016 in ultraviolance in two days four years ago. DOOM eternal in ultraviolance is taking me a week and I love it! Every death makes me return to the game and beat that arena, Mike Gordon’s music makes my blood boil and gives me adrenaline boost! Right now I’m im the last mission and the longer the icon of sin remains on earth the stronger it will become.
10/10. I love DOOM
Honestly, the only creativity stifling I've been seeing is the removal of the custom map feature from 2016. We will never see a Harvest Doom on Eternal ._.
I've watched this particular upload at least 5 times, among others, and growing from a completely new doom player to going through nightmare runs, this games opens you up to being a more "think on your feet" person.
It’s so frustrating to hear complaints like this because there are some real things in the game to criticize if you look a little deeper, but all of this is so surface level and remedied with a slight change of perspective. Good stuff Mayo.
Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a certain rythm the game wants you to get in to play it.
But I've had pretty drastic changes in my playstyle over the course of my playthrough, experimenting with new weapon combos and mods, and from adapting to all of the new enemies. To say it limits creativity is a bit stupid tbh
>there's definitely a certain rythm the game wants you to get in to play it
Every well designed action should do that. Doom 2016 flaw was it didn't punish cheesing and 1 weapon spammers enough. It also soo stupid to complain that a Doom game pushes a rhythm of combat when every game in series has done this just in more simple way.
Limitations and parameters can inspire creativity. The fact that there are enemy based strategies means you need to switch up your strategies in unique ways
I learned the way of Doom
But now my fingers hurt so much..
What ID should have done is to double the ammo capacity on lower difficulty settings so people could stick to one weapon, but having the game the way it is now or even more restrictive on harder settings. It would actually stay true to the originals because every ammo pickup had double the ammo on easier difficulty compared to Ultra-violence and higher. It was less need for exploration on I’m To Young To Die, but exploring and min-max your ammo, health and armor was crucial on higher difficulty setting. It would be a huge benefit to the game because it would have broader appeal and the game would fundamentally change between difficulty options. This isn’t Dark Souls where you have just one difficulty option called Git Gud & Praise The Sun(meme).
I'll admit, the few complaints I had about this game have largely been stamped out by this video. Very well done.
I tried to play 2016 the other day. After playing Doom Eternal, I can't play 2016 effectively anymore. I keep trying to dash, use flame belch, etc. It's like I have to completely relearn the game lol
A very good video released four days ago from a titanfall youtubers mentioned that the gaming community has becomes to casual and now expects everything to be handed to them without challenge, and I have to whole heartedly agree. Everyone expects to mash buttons and repeat patterns to win, but it’s games like Doom Eternal and Titanfall 2 that feel like real games to me. Thank you for making this video.
I always thought about it using all your “tools” as a combo. It’s the reason there’s less ammo capacity in Doom eternal compared to 2016 Doom. The reason the chainsaw is unlimited because it recharges. The reason there is flame belch and blood punch for health and armor in the first place. Almost every demon has a recommended weapon to use against them but not required. I think about like this, if I use a chainsaw and I don’t grab ammo for all my weapons, I’m not playing to the fullest potential that game has to offer, but it doesn’t mean that is less fun. You can still be in the fun zone if you don’t use some weapons, but know that it might break the combo you had going when you meet the “one” demon.
People who complain all the time about games, shouldn't be playing them at all.
Doom Eternal is made perfectly. And the few who disagree. please go home.
It's as close to perfect as we'll get, but it does still have flaws. There's occasional inconsistency for lock-on weapons (meat hook, chainsaw, lock-on burst, blood punch), ARC Complex Master Level crashes a lot, and the glory kills for the Baron of Hell are kind of lame because they all just use the Doomblade.
That's about it, though.
I don’t think a game could ever be perfect but Doom Eternal is very VERY close to it. id is strolling along the right direction at breakneck speeds. They just need to jump over a few small issues. Honestly, Eternal is the game that scratched an itch I had for years that only a few FPS and action games could. Now when I get back to playing COD and other similar games they just feel so slow. Which makes sense considering that most games nowadays aim for realism which is fine. But this game for me proves that you don’t need to make it all grounded and realistic to have a memorable and enjoyable experience.
@DarkSonic180 LOL sure whatever
DarkSonic180
Get the virus? I mean, you could’ve used it like Dill pickle did. I guess you really are a washed up troll.
I played through entire doom 2016 spamming super shotgun, gauss gun. Never thought of ammo management, never cared about how i played against different enemy types. Played in a brain-dead manner. Started eternal and died in the first level to the spiders without any ammo left. Got frustrated and immediately went to reddit and youtube searching for someone validating my frustrations regarding the measly ammo provided. Found your earlier video by chance and listened to what you had to say, and then played like it was designed to be played. This was the most fun gaming experience I ever had thanks to you. I just felt like a god when quick switching, dashing, jumping, grenading, burning the demons. Thank you for this, will forever be grateful to you and looking forward for the future content.
Agreed. In Doom 2016 I kept doing the stun mod for plasma rifle + super shotgun combo. Perhaps not the fastest way of killing demons, but it was certainly a very easy way of cheesing through most of the game and it only didn't work in bossfights for obvious reasons. I still enjoy that game but I think it will be pretty hard to go back to after playing Eternal. Eternal is probably the one I'd replay much more in years to come.