John is the real deal. So accomplished, yet so modest. I'm fortunate to have sailed with him on a few occasions. (My avatar pic was taken on s/v Quetzal's mast).
Its amazing to see John Kretschmer sitting there. Read so many of his words and have so much respect for him. What a great guy and fab vid. Many thanks!!!
Yeah, we were bummed about the audio problem (but found the fix for it-GoPro bluetooth being on). John is the coolest guy. A great mix of being deadly serious about the risks of open-ocean sailing while being absolutely humble and easy to talk to. He's a philosophical guy who thinks a lot about historical figures and the world we live in.
What a pro. Its like talking to a veteran motorcycle racer. No BS, all points well thought out and reduced just to the basics of what works and what doesn't. Listening to that helps you see the broader picture.
I love John. We met up with him (by chance) in Charlotte Amalie (St Thomas) harbor earlier this last season, and he was gracious as always. He was in a rush to meet some people on the east end later that day, but took time out anyway to have us aboard Quetzl for a bit of catching up. And you're right that you just know that his experiences are near limitless. A guy who really has done almost everything.
We just bought a Bristol 27 1966 in BEAUTIFUL shape. And sailed all summer. It cost us 8k to purchase, and 2500 storage and mooring. We are doing maintanance this fall, and a bit of a refit. My thinking for the refit now isn't so we can go all over for longer, but refit so the boat is available for some one else 20 years from now.
Terrific! It's always a process of deciding how far to go with a refit. At root, when you buy a boat you're buying the hull and interior. Everything else was supplied by others, and therefore can usually be replaced. But doing so is expensive, kind of like building a car one bit at a time from dealer parts. That's why we focused on electronics and running rigging first. This got most of the safety items out of the way, as Talisman was generally a pretty solid boat.
Hi! I am a younger person trying to do my research to get a live aboard boat, eventually I plan to cross the Atlantic. I am looking at older models so this interview is great. Thank you so much!
Great to hear it Jordan. I do have a big spreadsheet on cruising sailboats between 40' and 55'. You can look up my email in the "about" tab, "for business inquiries". If you send me an email, I'll get that to you. I changed my mind so many times regarding what boat was best for us.
Indeed. Getting to a place where you can understand the strengths and weakness of the boat is the key. The industry would have you believe all the new boats are great for everything.
Finally, somebody is talking reasonably and objectively on this subject! Yes, it's not so much a question of strength; it's about hull shape and sea-kindliness. (After a few minutes, one no longer notices the audio problem.)
It's one step away from impossible to get marine professionals to give their true opinions on modern sailboat designs, and to be honest a big part of it is that the people that own modern production boats love them and wouldn't go with anything else. We see a ton of them in the locations we've been through (Scotland down through France, Northern Spain, Portugal, Southern Spain, and now Gibraltar) and the owners rave about their purchase. But for us, having sailed the various charter boats we've had, and now the Oyster 485, there's no real comparison. We've been caught out in some insane weather in the last month and although we suffered equipment failure (burned out mainsail furler motor, leading to sail damage), the boat itself is something to behold. Quite fast and solid as a rock in steep, short period waves. Thanks so much for watching.
Keep studying. John skirts around some of his real thoughts, as industry people must do since they're all beholden to the big players. Build a spreadsheet to compare available data on the boats you like. My choices on bluewater boats have changed many times over the years, and especially so now that an actual purchase is looming large. There is nowadays a huge difference between production coastal cruisers and true bluewater boats, with the former outnumbering the latter by an order of 100:1 or more in terms of availability. Many people cruise with coastal cruisers, so that alone is not an impediment to getting on the water, but weather routing becomes much more important if you're doing it that way.
I think all the "celebrities" in the industry are at some level beholden to the big producers of modern yachts. We all want to be seen as relevant, and John is no exception. There's nothing wrong with that. Look at the "Bluewater Yacht of the Year" or "Cruising Yacht of the Year" competitions. Invariably, they're just production boats with a bit more kit. If you want an offshore Yacht you're going to have to go high dollar or older. There's no two ways about it. Let me know if you disagree.
I loved every minute we spent with John. He's a rock star. All I'm saying is that there's little upside to him in criticizing the design choices of the production boat builders. John writes articles for Cruising World and probably other publications as well, and getting anyone in his position to speak even remotely critically about the big brands is almost a non-starter. This makes it very difficult to tease out his true feelings on modern boat design. His choice of the Kaufman is a case in point. If you read his book, you'll find out that he had very specific criteria for what he wanted to buy. He also had a very limited budget. Aligning those two limitations narrowed the search to perhaps three boats. In fact, he purchased the Kaufman (Quetzal sp?) as she sat in a dockyard being prepared to be donated to charity. Kaufman 47s and 49s had a short run, and perhaps 20 hulls were eventually built. His second favorite brand to be sure is Hylas. He's worked for Hylas and sailed a lot of them. I agree with you that nothing on his list is new, and I guess that gives away his true feelings (as you say). Thanks for keeping in touch.
Great interview. John is very fair and understands the modern hull designs purpose. As far as passage making, the reason that there's a'lot of Pogos, open 40 types sailing boats is because of speed. I've never gone out beyond lake Ontario but I can imagine the important of speed when crossing the Pacific. The point is all boats are compromises, bumpy, but arrive a week earlier, that's a huge deal. Most also are designed for downwind sailing. There's also still alot of Scandinavian builders that are selling narrow hulls like Luffe, Faurby, Sunbeams and Winner Yachts are actually reasonably priced and very seaworthy. You then have the X yachts and the Js which are in between.
The couple who really use speed to outrun storms are Steve and Linda Dashew. Their aluminum ketch Beowulf is famous for being insanely fast. There's video on the web of the boat cruising at a steady 22kts while Linda reads a book. However, for lesser sailors, speed can be dangerous. I can't speak from experience so I'm always wary of saying it's this way or that way, but from talking to John Kretschmer I think I understand the problem. In short, as seas build the need to steer through the gaps in the waves becomes increasingly important, especially if the wave period is short and choppy. This requires hand steering, and is complicated by the inability to see clearly at night. The crew becomes exhausted after 24 hours or more of this. Wide, light production boats have a tendency to start planing down the backsides of the waves and with that kind of speed rudders begin to cavitate and the boats start skidding. They launch and pound, while taking on the feeling of being very close to being out of control. Broaching in a trough and being overrun by a breaking wave becomes the main fear. The real danger grows as a rotating storm passes and the wind direction changes to 90 degrees against the motion of the swells. Every 100th or 1000th wave explodes out of the sea as a rogue wave (John doesn't like the term) and a knockdown becomes more likely. Sea anchors, drogues and warps are the main go-to tools to help control speed. If you've got the sea room, a sea anchor deployed from the bow will hopefully keep things pointed into the wind and allow the crew to get some sleep. As an aside, I've always liked the X-Yachts XC45 and XC50 boats for their stability numbers, but they're not very old yet and the pricing is way out of our range. Boats marketed in America tend not to be narrow. In fact, they all seem to be from the big production builders. It's 90% or so of what you see (for newer post-1990 boats). Thanks for watching and feel free to offer any additional thoughts you might have.
Hey thanks for replying. I've watched that Dashew its awesome. I agree with you and John, I have the feeling he's holding back abit. I think alot of people are getting carried away because these pro single handed sailors uses these boats and the companies in turn markets it "hey you can do it too". Me personally, I would never choose any of these French boats unless its not too far offshore or for short distance cruising. I do like the minimalist/camping feel they have (Pogos, RM yachts). Like John was saying, its ok if you are hugging the coast all the way down to Panama. I prefer boats that is narrow but with modern appendages (mostly upwind around the can boats). If I was crossing either oceans or sailing the Maritimes, I would love a Besteaver45ST. Its actually doable $$ wise used (granting you get a good inheritance or you have an extra property to liquidate) but what a beauty that would last a lifetime. The Dutch to me builds the best boats.
Yeah, I warned you. But what John was saying outweighed the technical difficulties (coding error with early GoPro Bluetooth functionality), so I posted it anyway. Hundreds of people have contacted us thanking for us for this episode, so I think net/net it was a success.
something seems messed up on the audio? sounds like a helicopter flying in the background? don't know if it's on your master or a temporary youtube problem.
As I say in the beginning, it was some sort of audio problem that happened during recording. Sorry, but I felt the actual interview was worth it, so had to go with what I had.
Hi Kenny. John seems to love all sailboats, and that's not a lie. He sees whatever good he can find in them. But $20 says he'd be a real fan of the Kraken. I've watched the videos of the founder talking about what he thought was important in boat design, and it would be hard to argue that he's wrong about any of it. At root, the difference between modern dedicated bluewater cruisers and production boats is that one is focused entirely on doing more with less from an engineering/weight perspective, while the other is not. Unfortunately for the boat buyer, heavy duty, ocean grade equipment and hull thicknesses are not cheap. And there's no way of making them cheap. The materials and hardware costs are what they are. But on the flip side, there are a lot of sailors out there that don't really need offshore boats. If you're just sailing around the Chesapeake Bay, you don't need a Kraken. Does that help?
I enjoy your vids. In all your looking an speaking to others have you come up with a short list of current boat builders that make good true water sailboats..
As far as current builders, I'd say (in no particular order) Oyster, Hallberg Rassy, Passport, Discovery, Hylas, Tayana, Swan, Amel, Contest, Island Packet, Euphoria.
Interestingly I just heard Bob Perry say he would put spade rudders on any new design, that they were way better than skeg hung rudders. He was specifically referring to one of his old designs and what he would change.
Hi Jason. I could see that. The spade rudders provide a lot more control at low speeds and are "balanced". This means the rudder stock runs just forward of the vertical centerline of the rudder. Just enough to provide feel at the helm. The design is much easier for autopilots to handle. Bob would probably also say that the problems encountered historically have been the result of not having heavy enough glass around the rudder bearings and trying to get away with lighter components. The rudder is much easier to remove should it need to be serviced, but can also fall out if the fasteners at the quadrant loosen up. Some (possibly many) of the production boats have it set up that the rudder can be removed with the boat still in the water as the upper lip of the rudder bearing is above the waterline. Skeg hung rudders still carry the advantage of having the (bronze in my case) skeg there to ward off logs and such, but a single rudder design does have the keel in front and this will usually bump obstructions out of the way. Twin rudders are totally exposed, but at least you have a second rudder should something happen.
Yeah but what you're not factoring in is tying up large chunks of cash (for the newer boat vs delaying gratification to get a potentially sea worthy boat .. there are deals out there it's just knowing where to look.
Indeed. If you follow our SYT series (opportunity for binge watching), you'll see that that's exactly what we did. We opted for a slightly older oceangoing bluewater boat as opposed to a newer production style version. With the savings (against buying new, or newer) we were able to refit with modern, top-end electronics and have a few dollars left over to actually sail. The interview with John K was eye-opening. It really came down to a discussion in which I was trying to elicit John's thoughts on that trade-off. It's a hard subject for industry personnel, especially on the journalistic side, since the big builders dominate the market with their advertising dollars and influence. For this reason and others, it's a hard subject to get your hands around. It's also an ongoing debate within the sailing community, with believers convinced of their position on both sides. At root, it's difficult to dismiss the newer, lighter production boats for offshore work since you see them being used for that purpose literally everywhere you go. But this has to be weighed against build quality and comfort while on passage. It quickly comes down to a matter of choice, with valid arguments on each side. We chose our side, but I'm never judgmental of those who didn't see it our way.
Excellent. Some would have charged for that advice or commentary. Tactful not to malign any production manufacturer's name but saying it as it is. Interesting point on the demand by the American for comfort over the European yet the former wants to "travel the world" but not necessarily want the realistic, gritty aspects of sailing. The other thing I have noticed is ocean sailing really requires you on deck more frequently than being luxuriously tucked below. I guess where technology is right now you can't have the best of all worlds.
Hi Roger. We've been on the water for three years now and I have to say I'm still conflicted. We were on a tricked out Hanse 575 the other day and wow what a boat in terms of space and comfort. Of course you'd have to compare to an Oyster 56 (if it was me), but the livability and room for cool toys and equipment just jumps out at you. But as I always say, the solution to every design problem is make it bigger. However, back to production vs bluewater, you do see the big names everywhere you go, and they're fully capable of going places. We're happy with our purchase though and would do it again.
Hi Kevin. I noticed of the 3 'bluewaters' John mentioned, 2 ( Contessa and Morgan ) no longer are market players nor were they particularly over the 40' length but they made the transoceanic trips moreso than the 'production' ones. I suppose it's a case of timing as well i.e. when some of these companies were incorporated and are on the end part of their business cycle and the evolving technology. Need to define clearly what is bluewater coastal versus bluewater with no land seen/oceans. I agree that the tech is alluring but which among us can effectively repair, patch up and service when things go awry in the middle of a long crossing on rough seas? One last comment John made about the "bumpy and fast" due to the wider beams ( more luxury below deck ) which, in the crudest sense, can only be compensated by making a longer boat. I agree there's not quite a Goldilocks craft out there. Neither can one 'dictate' that you select and stick to a type of route and therefore a type of craft.
I think John underestimates the costs of such a project. Aluminum hulls are very labor intensive as you have to build each out of rolls of thick aluminum. Once the mold for a fiberglass boat is done, hundreds of hulls can be produced relatively easily. Anyway, the big hurdle is supplying all the hardware that comes from 3rd party vendors. There's only so much price reduction that can happen there. In the end, the manufacturer produces the hull and fits out the joinery. All else comes from outside.
Believe Jeanneau is part of Beneteau these days. Anyway, usually designed by the same design houses. Check the designer. Sailboatdata.com is a good resource.
Sorry about that. It turned out that the Bluetooth function on the camera interferes with the external mic. Still worth listening to what John says, even with substandard sound quality.
Linking blue water with non-production boats is mainly based on emotions and subjective feelings, Off course you do feel safer in one million dollar boat. So far I never seen someone that was able to give me a good rational argument why production boat can't safely cross oceans. They are all certified! History learns us that a production boat can lose it's keel, just like an oyster can! Also in the video I couldn't hear any argument. The hull shape of modern sailboats are all very similar (production and non productions) He is more talking about old versus new hull shapes. My definition of blue water boat: a well equipped and maintained boat with an experienced crew!
This is a complex and difficult subject, which is why I was trying to drill down on it. I personally don't take a strong stand one way or the other since I'm a free market guy. We made our choice and I'm happy and grateful that I felt I researched the issue to my satisfaction. Knowing myself, had I not done so I would have had buyer's remorse. Having bought a boat and gone out actively cruising and living the life full time, I can say with certainty that 80% of the cruisers are on production boats. This is certainly a cost issue to some degree, and the cost savings of a production boat allows so many more people to do it. How can that be bad? But below the surface, there's a premium being put by the production builders on producing a lightweight design. This has led to engineering failures. Oyster is not immune and had an issue with the first run of Oyster 825s that was eventually traced to the vacuum bagging/SCRIMP process they used during construction. The engineering was typically over-designed, but resin wasn't being pulled through properly and ended up being "dry". However, if pressed on the matter of why we chose the way we did, I'd state that it's a difference between fast, lightweight boats focused on economy of materials and hardware vs. heavier, more sea-kindly designs intended for getting beaten on in open ocean conditions. The bluewater boats have a more v-shaped forefoot as opposed to the flatter, more race oriented hull shapes of the production boats, especially as relates to carrying their beam aft. This is by design. The production manufacturers know that almost everyone they sell to is doing coastal cruising primarily and really wants a great entertaining platform and a machine that can beat all the other boats back to port. Can you do open ocean work on a production boat? Of course, how do you expect that they get into every corner of the world. But you'd better pay closer attention to weather routing and be prepared for a rougher ride upwind. As for John Kretschmer and other industry personnel, I find it amazing that John opened up as much as he did. He tiptoeing around the issue and using "older designs" as a substitute term. Beneteau alone probably accounts for 40% of the new sailboat market, and between them and Jeanneau, Dufour, Hanse, Bavaria, you're probably looking at 85-90%. These are the major advertisers and buyers of every piece of hardware currently produced. To criticize them even slightly is a sure path to finding yourself out of work. Anyway, like I say, to each their own. The market allows you the choice and how much would it suck to not be able to buy the boat you felt best with. Thanks so much for being with us.
Hi there. Thanks so much. On that video we had a technical bug/fault with GoPro's original Hero3+ firmware. If you left the Bluetooth/Wifi on (blinking blue light) it made that sound over the audio if you were using an external mic. At this point, with the number of views and all that I think I'll just let it go. But if something like that happens again I'll be sure to get in touch.
This middle class aluminium sailboat exists already. But it is french so how would you know. Alubat ovni my friends... Good luck and do not forget to make it great again.
The French love their aluminum boats. The Alubats (Ovni/Cigale) are good examples, along with Garcia and Allures at the upper level. These boats are often described as ULDH, or ultra light displacement hulls, and frequently don't have really deep keels. Sometimes there's hardly a keel at all. Some are centerboard lifting keels. They're really difficult to compare to typical fiberglass boats as the ratios for things like ballast/displacement, displacement/length, and capsize screening value don't compute or compare easily to typical heavier displacement fiberglass hulls. They tend to have European electrical systems and the interiors are often odd looking. I think a lot of shoppers like us shy away from them simply because we've never been aboard one. You see them all over the islands when you're in the Caribbean, and I'd imagine they rip once the wind comes up. Thanks for watching!
I am referring to the last part of the video when John says there is room for a 250k bluewater aluminium boat. You also see ovnis in Patagonia, Hawai, New Zealand and Malaysia, proving their bluewater cruising value if needed, which was what john was talking about. Ultimately, his bluewater boats list mostly concerns american brands/architects, (logically the ones he has sailed), probably only 15% of the boats out there. If you look at boats from England/France/Netherlands/Scandinavia, you will have a much larger choice, and the one you will see on your side of the pond have at least crossed the atlantic. Dufour A9000 is probably the closest to his description actually, they stopped the manufacture in 1983, but there is plenty on sale. As for shying away from an exploration 45 or a cigale 14 because of electric plugs, that is quite the shallow reasoning. Even for centerboards.
Ah, yes. It's been a while since I've listened to the audio. I think at the time I said something along the lines of "yes, but what about the hardware?" Once you've built the hull for $150,000, what about the spars, winches, sails, standing and running rigging, electronics, engine, and the interior? If you go to a boat show in the U.S., the big production builders are pitching a bottom price point of $450,000 for a 45-48' charter style boat. And that's a stripped down model. I think there just isn't any way to produce it cheaper (because Harken Seldon, Quantum, etc won't budge on their price). Plus, the bluewater crowd wants a totally different product than the rest of the market, which translates to an even higher price. Buying an older boat and upgrading it is the only way for people to get into the game for a reasonable price, but once you go down that road you're looking at a five year minimum project and a huge outlay of money and labor. People tell me all the time how it can be done, but until you've actually refit a boat I think it's hard to understand. Single guy living out of his car in a boatyard maybe, but the time is a killer. It's nice to converse with someone who obviously knows boats. I think the aversion to aluminum hulls actually lies with my wife, who has some sort of issue with it. As for me, I'm looking for a controllable design with a good stability curve. And while the French are fantastic sailors and work around the issues that accompany a light, fast hull, I'm not convinced that a middle aged couple doublehanding the boat wouldn't find it a handful in truly heavy weather.
You seem to believe that people in the states aren't already awash in imported boats...this is incorrect. As I type this I sit aboard a Hallberg-Rassey. One of the few European boats I think measures up.
Haha... So I am in the US right now and I know a little bit about the topic. You do have good food but keep it for yourself, and export your shitty McDonald. Well: we have good boats but export mainly shitty Bavarias and Beneteau. That's the source of many stereotypes in both cases, and it is very natural, but needs to be fought. Check out the blue water boat list of mister K interviewed above on his website: www.yayablues.com/bluewater.htm irrealisticly few European boats except Wauquiez Amel and Hallberg Rassey. Do you suggest that most american sailors are more knowledgeable that him? I do not think so. Now my comment concerned a middle class aluminum boat in response to 19:00. In France you can find this kind of boat as Aluminum is quite popular. In this price range, you get a small Ovni or a JPB 40 by Meta (Moitessier's yard). More money you get a Garcia, Allures or Boreal. Honestly, if it was not for my comment, how many of you guys would have heard for instance of the JPB 40? www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/web/les-constructions/les-voiliers/jpb40/ My hat to you if you did, because it is quite hard to dig out even for french guys.
Interesting interview but difficult to follow due to the audio problems. John seems distracted at times, but his answers are to the point. The question of new expensive boat vs older affordable boat is really not a big question at all. Those that can afford new high dollar boats can and do buy them, the rest of us, buy what we can afford. I am in the same conundrum now in regards to my next boat. Morgan 38 vs something like a baba 40 or passport 40. And while the morgan is around 40K and the passport/baba is almost 3x more, they are still inexpensive relative to much newer boats. What does it cost to bring a 1980 Morgan up to standards, or a 1985 Passport? Not nearly as much as buying a new boat. That is for people than can spend 400K and not think to much about it. Or can finance it, which I would not do. So its really not a question at all. The people that can go high dollar will, and the rest can't. Also remember that there are plenty of people that refit older boats that for whatever reason, don't cruise on it, and if you're lucky, you can pick up one of those for a lot less. And refitting a older boat is only expensive when you pay someone to do the work for you. If you can do it, the cost comes down, but that is not accounting for your labor costs, which in my opinion is one of love of doing vs saving money. But with the cost of 90 bucks or more per hour for a "Professional" to do the work, which in many cases will be less than you desire, the reality of doing your own work can be quite rewarding, but very time consuming. Thanks for posting this.
Hi Bob. Yes, John was distracted. The course was over and everyone was breaking down the displays and wanting to say goodbye. They could see John was being interviewed but kept lurking around the edges. As for refitting boats, I'm of the opinion that you really want to find a boat that someone else has done a lot of work on. However, bear in mind that repairing a broken system, like a bow thruster or A/C system is much less money and effort than adding new, since piping and electric are already there. Do not underestimate the cost of a refit, in both $ and time. Project boats go on for years as the owner does a little here and a little there. The older boats like the ones you mention have value if the bones are good. We were traveling out of Ft Lauderdale (on a Lagoon 440) with John and looking at boats along the way. He pointed out a fully refurbished Morgan and spoke in rather emotional terms about the times he'd been aboard a friend's Morgan.
Yes, I know about the refit issues. I did one on a Endeavor 40 cc and in the middle of it it sunk due to some electrolysis issues at the marina. Bummer. I agree with having someone else do the work first, as long as they do a good job. To many don't. Just have to open up a electrical panel to see that.
Too bad about the Endeavor. Billy, the owner of the Endeavor (I think it was an Endeavor-if not, perhaps a Valiant) that has been written about twice in cruising world, as they attempted two different times to cross the north Atlantic, was in the JKU class. His focus on electronics verged on manic, and in the end problems with getting the complex systems to talk to each other doomed the mission as weather windows were lost.
A couple comments here. First off, glad you opened up your question to a pro in a non-bias way. That's a terrible way to start an interview with a lead in question and you obviously went in with a bias. . Second, that audio is terrible!!
10-4. With John, and most other "pros" in the industry, you have to ride them hard to get them to talk honestly about boat design The big production builders dominate the market so thoroughly nowadays, especially as regards the advertising dollars and reach that they have, that it's very difficult to get to a place where the true plus's and minus's are addressed, which is what I was trying to extract from John. I might have had a bias for myself, but I am firmly committed to the belief that there's a perfect owner for most boats. The reason the production builders sell so many boats goes beyond price. They listen to the market, incorporate improvements, and add features all the time. For a person doing friendly weather day sailing within sight of the coast, and looking for a fast, fun boat, it's hard to go wrong with them. BTW, it turned out that the audio problem stemmed from having the Bluetooth feature on the camera turned on while using an external microphone. It a very repeatable problem, and one that might be unique to my microphone.
Yes. A friend of ours is looking at one now. Americans don't see a lot of aluminum boats, and the numbers are impossible to compare to fiberglass. The hulls are sometimes referred to as ULDH, or ultra light displacement hull, and as you would imagine, they really are very light on displacement. Therefore, and I can't speak from experience since I've never sailed one, they will likely get up on plane on the backsides of waves and get going very fast. Steve Dashew loves aluminum boats and he and his wife are fairly famous for cruising at 20+kts. However, some designs are centerboard style, and this means the ballast is in the bilge rather than a deeper keel. Mathematically, the righting moment is therefore reduced and this scares the bluewater cruising set. As I've mentioned before, you see the French aluminum boats all over the world, especially in the Caribbean, and they had to get there somehow. Interiors range from home built crap to very nice depending on the model and brand (Ovni and similar). Layout often has the dining area under the cockpit, with low ceiling height but an interesting concept not seen elsewhere,
i had seen a channel with Swedish couple on one went to Caribbean from Sweden. Its "RAN Sailing". I am no expert but it looks like a solid boat priced nearly same as most fiberglass production boats.
I Love the RAN series, and have been following them since the beginning. There are a ton of affordable bluewater boats out there. They just need work and that costs money. I narrowed my choices by creating a database of easily obtained data points for all sorts of sailboats over a 10 or so year period, but it could be done in a few days with heavy research. The best place to look for this data is a site called sailboatdata.com. There you can find everything you need to know about a potential boat. Enter all that info a spreadsheet and pretty soon, even if you had only 3 or 4 boats you were looking at, you'd be able to start seeing one as being better than the others.
nice, thanks. i normally just use yachtworld's advanced search, it lets you narrow things pretty well. unfortunately, it does not tell much about boat's offshore capability. you really should try at making a video on various good blue-water cruising boats for safe comfortable cruising without having to part with your kidney to pay for it.
Brokers enter the specs on Yachtworld and they are frequently wrong. If you're looking for reliable numbers for boat comparison use only sailboatdata.com. My favorite affordable cruising boat (for price vs. age) is the Grand Soleil 46.3.
Sorry about the audio. There's no redoing or correcting. Turned out it's a conflict between bluetooth and the USB microphone on my GoPro. As stated at the beginning, the value of the interview made it worth posting even if not perfect.
It's watchable, but just not ideal. This is one of those videos where the information John speaks of is more important than the video quality, which is why I posted it.
Watch some other TH-cam channel if you don't like it. I apologized up front. What do you expect? Technical glitch. The actual information is what's important, so it's worth what you pay for it. Almost everyone else could see that.
John is the real deal. So accomplished, yet so modest. I'm fortunate to have sailed with him on a few occasions. (My avatar pic was taken on s/v Quetzal's mast).
Its amazing to see John Kretschmer sitting there. Read so many of his words and have so much respect for him. What a great guy and fab vid. Many thanks!!!
Yeah, we were bummed about the audio problem (but found the fix for it-GoPro bluetooth being on). John is the coolest guy. A great mix of being deadly serious about the risks of open-ocean sailing while being absolutely humble and easy to talk to. He's a philosophical guy who thinks a lot about historical figures and the world we live in.
Great series - love John, his sailing methodologies, and his writing! Glad you got to hang out! :-)
It was a hoot. John is a blast to hang out with. Plus he throws a good party.
What a pro. Its like talking to a veteran motorcycle racer. No BS, all points well thought out and reduced just to the basics of what works and what doesn't. Listening to that helps you see the broader picture.
I love John. We met up with him (by chance) in Charlotte Amalie (St Thomas) harbor earlier this last season, and he was gracious as always. He was in a rush to meet some people on the east end later that day, but took time out anyway to have us aboard Quetzl for a bit of catching up. And you're right that you just know that his experiences are near limitless. A guy who really has done almost everything.
Thanks for putting this together for us
Bummer about the mic, still worth it to hear Johns opinions
Cheers
exactly what I was looking for Thanks!!!
We just bought a Bristol 27 1966 in BEAUTIFUL shape. And sailed all summer. It cost us 8k to purchase, and 2500 storage and mooring. We are doing maintanance this fall, and a bit of a refit. My thinking for the refit now isn't so we can go all over for longer, but refit so the boat is available for some one else 20 years from now.
Terrific! It's always a process of deciding how far to go with a refit. At root, when you buy a boat you're buying the hull and interior. Everything else was supplied by others, and therefore can usually be replaced. But doing so is expensive, kind of like building a car one bit at a time from dealer parts. That's why we focused on electronics and running rigging first. This got most of the safety items out of the way, as Talisman was generally a pretty solid boat.
Hi! I am a younger person trying to do my research to get a live aboard boat, eventually I plan to cross the Atlantic. I am looking at older models so this interview is great. Thank you so much!
Great to hear it Jordan. I do have a big spreadsheet on cruising sailboats between 40' and 55'. You can look up my email in the "about" tab, "for business inquiries". If you send me an email, I'll get that to you. I changed my mind so many times regarding what boat was best for us.
What a great interview. Good job and great highlights of the challenges facing production boat builders vs. blue water requirements
Indeed. Getting to a place where you can understand the strengths and weakness of the boat is the key. The industry would have you believe all the new boats are great for everything.
Enjoyed the topic. Thanks for putting it out there.
You bet!
Love his books. Great interview especially the angle towards production boats and the future of boat availability.
Thanks so much. John's offshore sailing class was awesome.
Finally, somebody is talking reasonably and objectively on this subject! Yes, it's not so much a question of strength; it's about hull shape and sea-kindliness. (After a few minutes, one no longer notices the audio problem.)
It's one step away from impossible to get marine professionals to give their true opinions on modern sailboat designs, and to be honest a big part of it is that the people that own modern production boats love them and wouldn't go with anything else. We see a ton of them in the locations we've been through (Scotland down through France, Northern Spain, Portugal, Southern Spain, and now Gibraltar) and the owners rave about their purchase. But for us, having sailed the various charter boats we've had, and now the Oyster 485, there's no real comparison. We've been caught out in some insane weather in the last month and although we suffered equipment failure (burned out mainsail furler motor, leading to sail damage), the boat itself is something to behold. Quite fast and solid as a rock in steep, short period waves. Thanks so much for watching.
Thank you, Love the books and sharing your experience, loving my ole Tayana PH 37,
Enjoyed this vid as I am looking for at blue water boat second hand so this answered most of my questions thanks
Keep studying. John skirts around some of his real thoughts, as industry people must do since they're all beholden to the big players. Build a spreadsheet to compare available data on the boats you like. My choices on bluewater boats have changed many times over the years, and especially so now that an actual purchase is looming large. There is nowadays a huge difference between production coastal cruisers and true bluewater boats, with the former outnumbering the latter by an order of 100:1 or more in terms of availability. Many people cruise with coastal cruisers, so that alone is not an impediment to getting on the water, but weather routing becomes much more important if you're doing it that way.
How is John "beholden to big players?" That doesn't make sense. He has his own boat and runs his own business.
I think all the "celebrities" in the industry are at some level beholden to the big producers of modern yachts. We all want to be seen as relevant, and John is no exception. There's nothing wrong with that. Look at the "Bluewater Yacht of the Year" or "Cruising Yacht of the Year" competitions. Invariably, they're just production boats with a bit more kit. If you want an offshore Yacht you're going to have to go high dollar or older. There's no two ways about it. Let me know if you disagree.
Sailing at 9000 I do, considering that John owns an '87 Kaufman 47 and his Bluewater sailboats list includes nothing new
I loved every minute we spent with John. He's a rock star. All I'm saying is that there's little upside to him in criticizing the design choices of the production boat builders. John writes articles for Cruising World and probably other publications as well, and getting anyone in his position to speak even remotely critically about the big brands is almost a non-starter. This makes it very difficult to tease out his true feelings on modern boat design. His choice of the Kaufman is a case in point. If you read his book, you'll find out that he had very specific criteria for what he wanted to buy. He also had a very limited budget. Aligning those two limitations narrowed the search to perhaps three boats. In fact, he purchased the Kaufman (Quetzal sp?) as she sat in a dockyard being prepared to be donated to charity. Kaufman 47s and 49s had a short run, and perhaps 20 hulls were eventually built. His second favorite brand to be sure is Hylas. He's worked for Hylas and sailed a lot of them. I agree with you that nothing on his list is new, and I guess that gives away his true feelings (as you say). Thanks for keeping in touch.
Excellent post!
Great interview. John is very fair and understands the modern hull designs purpose. As far as passage making, the reason that there's a'lot of Pogos, open 40 types sailing boats is because of speed. I've never gone out beyond lake Ontario but I can imagine the important of speed when crossing the Pacific. The point is all boats are compromises, bumpy, but arrive a week earlier, that's a huge deal. Most also are designed for downwind sailing. There's also still alot of Scandinavian builders that are selling narrow hulls like Luffe, Faurby, Sunbeams and Winner Yachts are actually reasonably priced and very seaworthy. You then have the X yachts and the Js which are in between.
The couple who really use speed to outrun storms are Steve and Linda Dashew. Their aluminum ketch Beowulf is famous for being insanely fast. There's video on the web of the boat cruising at a steady 22kts while Linda reads a book. However, for lesser sailors, speed can be dangerous. I can't speak from experience so I'm always wary of saying it's this way or that way, but from talking to John Kretschmer I think I understand the problem. In short, as seas build the need to steer through the gaps in the waves becomes increasingly important, especially if the wave period is short and choppy. This requires hand steering, and is complicated by the inability to see clearly at night. The crew becomes exhausted after 24 hours or more of this. Wide, light production boats have a tendency to start planing down the backsides of the waves and with that kind of speed rudders begin to cavitate and the boats start skidding. They launch and pound, while taking on the feeling of being very close to being out of control. Broaching in a trough and being overrun by a breaking wave becomes the main fear. The real danger grows as a rotating storm passes and the wind direction changes to 90 degrees against the motion of the swells. Every 100th or 1000th wave explodes out of the sea as a rogue wave (John doesn't like the term) and a knockdown becomes more likely. Sea anchors, drogues and warps are the main go-to tools to help control speed. If you've got the sea room, a sea anchor deployed from the bow will hopefully keep things pointed into the wind and allow the crew to get some sleep. As an aside, I've always liked the X-Yachts XC45 and XC50 boats for their stability numbers, but they're not very old yet and the pricing is way out of our range. Boats marketed in America tend not to be narrow. In fact, they all seem to be from the big production builders. It's 90% or so of what you see (for newer post-1990 boats). Thanks for watching and feel free to offer any additional thoughts you might have.
Hey thanks for replying. I've watched that Dashew its awesome. I agree with you and John, I have the feeling he's holding back abit. I think alot of people are getting carried away because these pro single handed sailors uses these boats and the companies in turn markets it "hey you can do it too". Me personally, I would never choose any of these French boats unless its not too far offshore or for short distance cruising. I do like the minimalist/camping feel they have (Pogos, RM yachts). Like John was saying, its ok if you are hugging the coast all the way down to Panama. I prefer boats that is narrow but with modern appendages (mostly upwind around the can boats). If I was crossing either oceans or sailing the Maritimes, I would love a Besteaver45ST. Its actually doable $$ wise used (granting you get a good inheritance or you have an extra property to liquidate) but what a beauty that would last a lifetime. The Dutch to me builds the best boats.
Ooh, that sound recording
Yeah, I warned you. But what John was saying outweighed the technical difficulties (coding error with early GoPro Bluetooth functionality), so I posted it anyway. Hundreds of people have contacted us thanking for us for this episode, so I think net/net it was a success.
something seems messed up on the audio? sounds like a helicopter flying in the background? don't know if it's on your master or a temporary youtube problem.
As I say in the beginning, it was some sort of audio problem that happened during recording. Sorry, but I felt the actual interview was worth it, so had to go with what I had.
Very interesting interview, I like listening to John.I wonder what his opinion is on Kraken Sailboats?
Hi Kenny. John seems to love all sailboats, and that's not a lie. He sees whatever good he can find in them. But $20 says he'd be a real fan of the Kraken. I've watched the videos of the founder talking about what he thought was important in boat design, and it would be hard to argue that he's wrong about any of it. At root, the difference between modern dedicated bluewater cruisers and production boats is that one is focused entirely on doing more with less from an engineering/weight perspective, while the other is not. Unfortunately for the boat buyer, heavy duty, ocean grade equipment and hull thicknesses are not cheap. And there's no way of making them cheap. The materials and hardware costs are what they are. But on the flip side, there are a lot of sailors out there that don't really need offshore boats. If you're just sailing around the Chesapeake Bay, you don't need a Kraken. Does that help?
@@SailingTalisman yes I totally understand that the majority of folk dont need a Kraken but it doesnt stop us dreaming lol
thanks i m lookin now at jeanneau 49 or 54 i need big headrm at my 6ft 2in= bluwatr isnt easy
Sorry but the audio is messed up with a clicking sound ! 😕
Yeah, I made mention of it and apologized, but the content was worth posting and there was no way to go back and do it again.
Excellent
I enjoy your vids. In all your looking an speaking to others have you come up with a short list of current boat builders that make good true water sailboats..
As far as current builders, I'd say (in no particular order) Oyster, Hallberg Rassy, Passport, Discovery, Hylas, Tayana, Swan, Amel, Contest, Island Packet, Euphoria.
Interestingly I just heard Bob Perry say he would put spade rudders on any new design, that they were way better than skeg hung rudders. He was specifically referring to one of his old designs and what he would change.
Hi Jason. I could see that. The spade rudders provide a lot more control at low speeds and are "balanced". This means the rudder stock runs just forward of the vertical centerline of the rudder. Just enough to provide feel at the helm. The design is much easier for autopilots to handle. Bob would probably also say that the problems encountered historically have been the result of not having heavy enough glass around the rudder bearings and trying to get away with lighter components. The rudder is much easier to remove should it need to be serviced, but can also fall out if the fasteners at the quadrant loosen up. Some (possibly many) of the production boats have it set up that the rudder can be removed with the boat still in the water as the upper lip of the rudder bearing is above the waterline. Skeg hung rudders still carry the advantage of having the (bronze in my case) skeg there to ward off logs and such, but a single rudder design does have the keel in front and this will usually bump obstructions out of the way. Twin rudders are totally exposed, but at least you have a second rudder should something happen.
that shirt is great
Yeah but what you're not factoring in is tying up large chunks of cash (for the newer boat vs delaying gratification to get a potentially sea worthy boat .. there are deals out there it's just knowing where to look.
Indeed. If you follow our SYT series (opportunity for binge watching), you'll see that that's exactly what we did. We opted for a slightly older oceangoing bluewater boat as opposed to a newer production style version. With the savings (against buying new, or newer) we were able to refit with modern, top-end electronics and have a few dollars left over to actually sail. The interview with John K was eye-opening. It really came down to a discussion in which I was trying to elicit John's thoughts on that trade-off. It's a hard subject for industry personnel, especially on the journalistic side, since the big builders dominate the market with their advertising dollars and influence. For this reason and others, it's a hard subject to get your hands around. It's also an ongoing debate within the sailing community, with believers convinced of their position on both sides. At root, it's difficult to dismiss the newer, lighter production boats for offshore work since you see them being used for that purpose literally everywhere you go. But this has to be weighed against build quality and comfort while on passage. It quickly comes down to a matter of choice, with valid arguments on each side. We chose our side, but I'm never judgmental of those who didn't see it our way.
Sailing Yacht Talisman personally I love the Bristol Channel Cutters , Falmouth Cutters, and I like the Newick Multihull designs as well.
Excellent. Some would have charged for that advice or commentary. Tactful not to malign any production manufacturer's name but saying it as it is. Interesting point on the demand by the American for comfort over the European yet the former wants to "travel the world" but not necessarily want the realistic, gritty aspects of sailing. The other thing I have noticed is ocean sailing really requires you on deck more frequently than being luxuriously tucked below. I guess where technology is right now you can't have the best of all worlds.
Hi Roger. We've been on the water for three years now and I have to say I'm still conflicted. We were on a tricked out Hanse 575 the other day and wow what a boat in terms of space and comfort. Of course you'd have to compare to an Oyster 56 (if it was me), but the livability and room for cool toys and equipment just jumps out at you. But as I always say, the solution to every design problem is make it bigger. However, back to production vs bluewater, you do see the big names everywhere you go, and they're fully capable of going places. We're happy with our purchase though and would do it again.
Hi Kevin. I noticed of the 3 'bluewaters' John mentioned, 2 ( Contessa and Morgan ) no longer are market players nor were they particularly over the 40' length but they made the transoceanic trips moreso than the 'production' ones. I suppose it's a case of timing as well i.e. when some of these companies were incorporated and are on the end part of their business cycle and the evolving technology. Need to define clearly what is bluewater coastal versus bluewater with no land seen/oceans. I agree that the tech is alluring but which among us can effectively repair, patch up and service when things go awry in the middle of a long crossing on rough seas? One last comment John made about the "bumpy and fast" due to the wider beams ( more luxury below deck ) which, in the crudest sense, can only be compensated by making a longer boat. I agree there's not quite a Goldilocks craft out there. Neither can one 'dictate' that you select and stick to a type of route and therefore a type of craft.
How hard can it be producing a 40-42 feet aluminum world cruiser ?
I think John underestimates the costs of such a project. Aluminum hulls are very labor intensive as you have to build each out of rolls of thick aluminum. Once the mold for a fiberglass boat is done, hundreds of hulls can be produced relatively easily. Anyway, the big hurdle is supplying all the hardware that comes from 3rd party vendors. There's only so much price reduction that can happen there. In the end, the manufacturer produces the hull and fits out the joinery. All else comes from outside.
for atlantic crossing beneteau better than jeanneau?
Believe Jeanneau is part of Beneteau these days. Anyway, usually designed by the same design houses. Check the designer. Sailboatdata.com is a good resource.
Very good video. Too bad you could not redo it.
Read JK's Sailing a Serious Ocean, & really enjoyed it. Was excited to watch this episode, but the audio made it unwatchable. :(
Sorry about that. It turned out that the Bluetooth function on the camera interferes with the external mic. Still worth listening to what John says, even with substandard sound quality.
Woah that audio is bad. Kretschmer says "groovy"!
Yeah, it's bad, but I warned you. The content is worth the suffering I think.
I want your shirt.
Linking blue water with non-production boats is mainly based on emotions and subjective feelings, Off course you do feel safer in one million dollar boat. So far I never seen someone that was able to give me a good rational argument why production boat can't safely cross oceans. They are all certified! History learns us that a production boat can lose it's keel, just like an oyster can! Also in the video I couldn't hear any argument. The hull shape of modern sailboats are all very similar (production and non productions) He is more talking about old versus new hull shapes.
My definition of blue water boat: a well equipped and maintained boat with an experienced crew!
This is a complex and difficult subject, which is why I was trying to drill down on it. I personally don't take a strong stand one way or the other since I'm a free market guy. We made our choice and I'm happy and grateful that I felt I researched the issue to my satisfaction. Knowing myself, had I not done so I would have had buyer's remorse. Having bought a boat and gone out actively cruising and living the life full time, I can say with certainty that 80% of the cruisers are on production boats. This is certainly a cost issue to some degree, and the cost savings of a production boat allows so many more people to do it. How can that be bad? But below the surface, there's a premium being put by the production builders on producing a lightweight design. This has led to engineering failures. Oyster is not immune and had an issue with the first run of Oyster 825s that was eventually traced to the vacuum bagging/SCRIMP process they used during construction. The engineering was typically over-designed, but resin wasn't being pulled through properly and ended up being "dry". However, if pressed on the matter of why we chose the way we did, I'd state that it's a difference between fast, lightweight boats focused on economy of materials and hardware vs. heavier, more sea-kindly designs intended for getting beaten on in open ocean conditions. The bluewater boats have a more v-shaped forefoot as opposed to the flatter, more race oriented hull shapes of the production boats, especially as relates to carrying their beam aft. This is by design. The production manufacturers know that almost everyone they sell to is doing coastal cruising primarily and really wants a great entertaining platform and a machine that can beat all the other boats back to port. Can you do open ocean work on a production boat? Of course, how do you expect that they get into every corner of the world. But you'd better pay closer attention to weather routing and be prepared for a rougher ride upwind. As for John Kretschmer and other industry personnel, I find it amazing that John opened up as much as he did. He tiptoeing around the issue and using "older designs" as a substitute term. Beneteau alone probably accounts for 40% of the new sailboat market, and between them and Jeanneau, Dufour, Hanse, Bavaria, you're probably looking at 85-90%. These are the major advertisers and buyers of every piece of hardware currently produced. To criticize them even slightly is a sure path to finding yourself out of work. Anyway, like I say, to each their own. The market allows you the choice and how much would it suck to not be able to buy the boat you felt best with. Thanks so much for being with us.
Just out of curiosity, how many boats have you owned and ow many offshore miles have you done?
Audio ? I’d be happy to fix your audio for you
Hi there. Thanks so much. On that video we had a technical bug/fault with GoPro's original Hero3+ firmware. If you left the Bluetooth/Wifi on (blinking blue light) it made that sound over the audio if you were using an external mic. At this point, with the number of views and all that I think I'll just let it go. But if something like that happens again I'll be sure to get in touch.
This middle class aluminium sailboat exists already. But it is french so how would you know. Alubat ovni my friends... Good luck and do not forget to make it great again.
The French love their aluminum boats. The Alubats (Ovni/Cigale) are good examples, along with Garcia and Allures at the upper level. These boats are often described as ULDH, or ultra light displacement hulls, and frequently don't have really deep keels. Sometimes there's hardly a keel at all. Some are centerboard lifting keels. They're really difficult to compare to typical fiberglass boats as the ratios for things like ballast/displacement, displacement/length, and capsize screening value don't compute or compare easily to typical heavier displacement fiberglass hulls. They tend to have European electrical systems and the interiors are often odd looking. I think a lot of shoppers like us shy away from them simply because we've never been aboard one. You see them all over the islands when you're in the Caribbean, and I'd imagine they rip once the wind comes up. Thanks for watching!
I am referring to the last part of the video when John says there is room for a 250k bluewater aluminium boat. You also see ovnis in Patagonia, Hawai, New Zealand and Malaysia, proving their bluewater cruising value if needed, which was what john was talking about. Ultimately, his bluewater boats list mostly concerns american brands/architects, (logically the ones he has sailed), probably only 15% of the boats out there. If you look at boats from England/France/Netherlands/Scandinavia, you will have a much larger choice, and the one you will see on your side of the pond have at least crossed the atlantic.
Dufour A9000 is probably the closest to his description actually, they stopped the manufacture in 1983, but there is plenty on sale. As for shying away from an exploration 45 or a cigale 14 because of electric plugs, that is quite the shallow reasoning. Even for centerboards.
Ah, yes. It's been a while since I've listened to the audio. I think at the time I said something along the lines of "yes, but what about the hardware?" Once you've built the hull for $150,000, what about the spars, winches, sails, standing and running rigging, electronics, engine, and the interior? If you go to a boat show in the U.S., the big production builders are pitching a bottom price point of $450,000 for a 45-48' charter style boat. And that's a stripped down model. I think there just isn't any way to produce it cheaper (because Harken Seldon, Quantum, etc won't budge on their price). Plus, the bluewater crowd wants a totally different product than the rest of the market, which translates to an even higher price.
Buying an older boat and upgrading it is the only way for people to get into the game for a reasonable price, but once you go down that road you're looking at a five year minimum project and a huge outlay of money and labor. People tell me all the time how it can be done, but until you've actually refit a boat I think it's hard to understand. Single guy living out of his car in a boatyard maybe, but the time is a killer.
It's nice to converse with someone who obviously knows boats. I think the aversion to aluminum hulls actually lies with my wife, who has some sort of issue with it. As for me, I'm looking for a controllable design with a good stability curve. And while the French are fantastic sailors and work around the issues that accompany a light, fast hull, I'm not convinced that a middle aged couple doublehanding the boat wouldn't find it a handful in truly heavy weather.
You seem to believe that people in the states aren't already awash in imported boats...this is incorrect. As I type this I sit aboard a Hallberg-Rassey. One of the few European boats I think measures up.
Haha... So I am in the US right now and I know a little bit about the topic.
You do have good food but keep it for yourself, and export your shitty McDonald. Well: we have good boats but export mainly shitty Bavarias and Beneteau. That's the source of many stereotypes in both cases, and it is very natural, but needs to be fought.
Check out the blue water boat list of mister K interviewed above on his website:
www.yayablues.com/bluewater.htm
irrealisticly few European boats except Wauquiez Amel and Hallberg Rassey. Do you suggest that most american sailors are more knowledgeable that him? I do not think so.
Now my comment concerned a middle class aluminum boat in response to 19:00. In France you can find this kind of boat as Aluminum is quite popular. In this price range, you get a small Ovni or a JPB 40 by Meta (Moitessier's yard). More money you get a Garcia, Allures or Boreal.
Honestly, if it was not for my comment, how many of you guys would have heard for instance of the JPB 40?
www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/web/les-constructions/les-voiliers/jpb40/
My hat to you if you did, because it is quite hard to dig out even for french guys.
Interesting interview but difficult to follow due to the audio problems. John seems distracted at times, but his answers are to the point. The question of new expensive boat vs older affordable boat is really not a big question at all. Those that can afford new high dollar boats can and do buy them, the rest of us, buy what we can afford. I am in the same conundrum now in regards to my next boat. Morgan 38 vs something like a baba 40 or passport 40. And while the morgan is around 40K and the passport/baba is almost 3x more, they are still inexpensive relative to much newer boats. What does it cost to bring a 1980 Morgan up to standards, or a 1985 Passport? Not nearly as much as buying a new boat. That is for people than can spend 400K and not think to much about it. Or can finance it, which I would not do. So its really not a question at all. The people that can go high dollar will, and the rest can't. Also remember that there are plenty of people that refit older boats that for whatever reason, don't cruise on it, and if you're lucky, you can pick up one of those for a lot less. And refitting a older boat is only expensive when you pay someone to do the work for you. If you can do it, the cost comes down, but that is not accounting for your labor costs, which in my opinion is one of love of doing vs saving money. But with the cost of 90 bucks or more per hour for a "Professional" to do the work, which in many cases will be less than you desire, the reality of doing your own work can be quite rewarding, but very time consuming.
Thanks for posting this.
Hi Bob. Yes, John was distracted. The course was over and everyone was breaking down the displays and wanting to say goodbye. They could see John was being interviewed but kept lurking around the edges. As for refitting boats, I'm of the opinion that you really want to find a boat that someone else has done a lot of work on. However, bear in mind that repairing a broken system, like a bow thruster or A/C system is much less money and effort than adding new, since piping and electric are already there. Do not underestimate the cost of a refit, in both $ and time. Project boats go on for years as the owner does a little here and a little there. The older boats like the ones you mention have value if the bones are good. We were traveling out of Ft Lauderdale (on a Lagoon 440) with John and looking at boats along the way. He pointed out a fully refurbished Morgan and spoke in rather emotional terms about the times he'd been aboard a friend's Morgan.
Yes, I know about the refit issues. I did one on a Endeavor 40 cc and in the middle of it it sunk due to some electrolysis issues at the marina. Bummer. I agree with having someone else do the work first, as long as they do a good job. To many don't. Just have to open up a electrical panel to see that.
Too bad about the Endeavor. Billy, the owner of the Endeavor (I think it was an Endeavor-if not, perhaps a Valiant) that has been written about twice in cruising world, as they attempted two different times to cross the north Atlantic, was in the JKU class. His focus on electronics verged on manic, and in the end problems with getting the complex systems to talk to each other doomed the mission as weather windows were lost.
french allures mkes aluminum
Yes.
A couple comments here. First off, glad you opened up your question to a pro in a non-bias way. That's a terrible way to start an interview with a lead in question and you obviously went in with a bias. . Second, that audio is terrible!!
10-4. With John, and most other "pros" in the industry, you have to ride them hard to get them to talk honestly about boat design The big production builders dominate the market so thoroughly nowadays, especially as regards the advertising dollars and reach that they have, that it's very difficult to get to a place where the true plus's and minus's are addressed, which is what I was trying to extract from John. I might have had a bias for myself, but I am firmly committed to the belief that there's a perfect owner for most boats. The reason the production builders sell so many boats goes beyond price. They listen to the market, incorporate improvements, and add features all the time. For a person doing friendly weather day sailing within sight of the coast, and looking for a fast, fun boat, it's hard to go wrong with them. BTW, it turned out that the audio problem stemmed from having the Bluetooth feature on the camera turned on while using an external microphone. It a very repeatable problem, and one that might be unique to my microphone.
Bad Loopy Sounds on Start ...Love John ...Cant Stand your Sound Edit Goodbye !
Sorry you were disappointed. Your alternative was never to hear what he said at all.
isn't OVNI pretty well meets that description of reasonably priced (if such thing exists in yachts) modern world cruising boat?
Yes. A friend of ours is looking at one now. Americans don't see a lot of aluminum boats, and the numbers are impossible to compare to fiberglass. The hulls are sometimes referred to as ULDH, or ultra light displacement hull, and as you would imagine, they really are very light on displacement. Therefore, and I can't speak from experience since I've never sailed one, they will likely get up on plane on the backsides of waves and get going very fast. Steve Dashew loves aluminum boats and he and his wife are fairly famous for cruising at 20+kts. However, some designs are centerboard style, and this means the ballast is in the bilge rather than a deeper keel. Mathematically, the righting moment is therefore reduced and this scares the bluewater cruising set. As I've mentioned before, you see the French aluminum boats all over the world, especially in the Caribbean, and they had to get there somehow. Interiors range from home built crap to very nice depending on the model and brand (Ovni and similar). Layout often has the dining area under the cockpit, with low ceiling height but an interesting concept not seen elsewhere,
i had seen a channel with Swedish couple on one went to Caribbean from Sweden. Its "RAN Sailing". I am no expert but it looks like a solid boat priced nearly same as most fiberglass production boats.
I Love the RAN series, and have been following them since the beginning. There are a ton of affordable bluewater boats out there. They just need work and that costs money. I narrowed my choices by creating a database of easily obtained data points for all sorts of sailboats over a 10 or so year period, but it could be done in a few days with heavy research. The best place to look for this data is a site called sailboatdata.com. There you can find everything you need to know about a potential boat. Enter all that info a spreadsheet and pretty soon, even if you had only 3 or 4 boats you were looking at, you'd be able to start seeing one as being better than the others.
nice, thanks. i normally just use yachtworld's advanced search, it lets you narrow things pretty well. unfortunately, it does not tell much about boat's offshore capability. you really should try at making a video on various good blue-water cruising boats for safe comfortable cruising without having to part with your kidney to pay for it.
Brokers enter the specs on Yachtworld and they are frequently wrong. If you're looking for reliable numbers for boat comparison use only sailboatdata.com. My favorite affordable cruising boat (for price vs. age) is the Grand Soleil 46.3.
Please redo this interview. Such great information. The audio is way too painful.
Sorry about the audio. There's no redoing or correcting. Turned out it's a conflict between bluetooth and the USB microphone on my GoPro. As stated at the beginning, the value of the interview made it worth posting even if not perfect.
I hope you have left that microphone on a deserted island with no tech support.
I warned you.
The audio makes this unwatchable.
It's watchable, but just not ideal. This is one of those videos where the information John speaks of is more important than the video quality, which is why I posted it.
are you joking with the audio????
Watch some other TH-cam channel if you don't like it. I apologized up front. What do you expect? Technical glitch. The actual information is what's important, so it's worth what you pay for it. Almost everyone else could see that.
These guys are sailors not sound designers.
Lighten up.