One issue I think you miss is that Ocean Gate/Stockton Rush didn't call any of their clients "passengers", they were all "mission specialists", even the 19 year old kid. "Passengers" brings in all kinds of addition requirements under not only the CFR's but IMO regulations. This is right in line with company narratives about safety and inspection and I think furthers your argument that the TITAN didn't have a COI/wasn't inspected.
@@timjackson3954 250k is not "a lot of money" in the deep diving world, it's peanuts. I doubt it was even enough to cover the costs of this shoddy operation.
Good point, it suggests the old saw about a sow's ear being called a silk purse, no matter what you call it, it is still a sow's ear. A 19 year old as a "mission specialist" pulease.
Just because they were called that, doesn't mean that the investigation will agree. Which I guess is what you are saying, I think they'll say they (passengers) didn't get enough training to qualify etc so should've been passengers and classed as such
“…a non-inspected submersible may be permitted in US passenger operations only if it is designed and constructed to a recognized industry standard.” I think it’s safe to say Titan was not adhering to recognized industry standards.
@@JoeLinux2000 I think this is one of the dumbest comments I've ever read on TH-cam. All I can find is that it made 3 or 4 trips to the titanic, and that was on their own website lmao.
To make it worse, OceanGate Inc. was using it’s 501(c) charitable foundation, OceanGate Foundation, to justify it’s business venture. This is a huge clusterf*.
From what James Cameron has said, he was not paying close attention to OceanGate and this particular sub. He had concerns about using carbon fibre for deep submersibles a decade ago when he was building the one he went in down to Challenger Deep. There was another team in competition with him planning to use a design very similar to Titan, he told them straight up they would die in that thing. In the end it was never used. To be fair to him he's a busy man, still making movies. I know others in the industry wrote to Stockton Rush to express their concerns. I suppose if there was no oversight from the authorities on what the company was doing, the only other thing they could have done would be to go public? Even then I don't know if that would have stopped OceanGate from operating and prevented this tragedy.
He said that he kind of assumed they knew something he didn't or had some new breakthrough with CFC or at least that they knew what they where doing...
But yeah he raised concerns about the DSV that was going to use the same style pressure vessel. Interestingly even that was only ever meant to be used once. 11 km down, set some sort of a record and surface directly into a museum. Taking it down multiple times was extra... brave.
next time anything like this looks as though it's too big a chore to take on - let others know ASAP - anyone, absolutely ANYONE who will help!! everyone was putty in this man's hands!!!
Cameron and the others who think the design is bad, at the ending of the day, is just an opinion. They cannot prove it unless they test the design themselves which is not going to happen. I suspected that up to that point, Ocean Gate has not break any law. This was really nothing to report. If Cameron just openly talk shit about them, they could just sue him. So I also think there is really nothing to do other than let Ocean Gate know of their concern.
only tragedy was the 19 year old kid. all the rest were hilarious as hell. dude purposely skirted safety... said safety was a waste. he fucked around and found out. everyone else knew it too but went along with it. only the 19 year old son was an innocent. the rest reaped what they sowed.
@@weskirkland5850 He didn't skirt safety. He did push the limits of the technology and miscalculated. My aunt died on the operating table at the Mayo Clinic getting a hip replacement. She traveled all the way from California to the Mayo clinic. She may have done better in Calif.. Who knows? Did old pipe ballast cause the problem? Did the fact that the hatch was bolted shut cause the problem? Did the game controller cause the problem? I saw the 747 that the cargo door blew off sitting on the tarmac at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii I think 7 passengers were sucked out of the plane and into the engines. My guess is that plane was fully certified. It took months to patch it up, and then they few it to Seattle allegedly for more proper repairs.
I wish a movie with some conspiracy twists emerges. Would be intriguing so many real questions in this. I hope it names true identities also. I’d watch and rewatch it! What a nifty spin!
So much to digest and ponder. As always, Sal, thank you for your clarity and insights. TH-cam channel "Sub Brief" gave you an awesome compliment on a recent video he posted.
It seems that the company did everything they could to side step as many safely rules as possible. There is a good reason why such systems have a maximum service life. And they knew it. It was just one cycle to many.
Stockton Rush appears to have been a skilled and believable con man adept at telling people what they thought they needed to hear, while disregarding concerns at every turn.
@@andrewtaylor940 It does seem to be the case. It's just a pity that his ego took 4 other people with him. Of course their own egoes did play a part in their deaths as well.
I'm sure it would have made the craft safer. Now every time Sal posts a video on a marine disaster, he will have to include a discussion of the ship's documentation. Why are ships registered in places like Majuro? The entire marine industry is a scam when you think about it. th-cam.com/video/z3b4Cuot4C4/w-d-xo.html
They did the reverse: claimed to operate under no regulation or standard in the waivers that their clients signed. That pretty much is an admission of operating an unflagged submersible.
I almost hate to say this because I love your channel. It sounds like you are laying some responsibility on people in the industry who were observing from a distance as we are now. The people who purchased a ride on this vessel were among the wealthiest on earth and certainly had the resources to find out how safe this obviously hazardous trip would be. In my mind there is no where else to lay the blame.
If I were worth billions, I would have a team of people assessing risk. I'm sure they would have told me to find a better vessel or commission one built.
The next time I go on a two mile deep submersible ride for a 1/4 of a million, I want it fully certified. Of course that might raise the cost of the ticket to a straight one million. and I would want food service and comfortable seating along with a proper restroom.
There's an analogy in financial investing. "Accredited investors" have access to some high-risk investments that most people don't, with less required disclosure of that risk, due to the investors' sophistication (which is presumed from their high net worth.) Since they can afford to pay for advice, they don't need hand-holding.
Sal, All of your observations and the comments are very interesting. When reading the reporting and watching the videos I ask myself, if this was a major operator like a major oil company or one of their contractors would the Titan have been permitted to operate? The answer is a resounding, NO! While I worked for the marine departments of major oil companies for the majority of my career, I have a very limited exposure to the workings of submersibles. I have, however, had exposure to significant incidents, failure modes and effects analysis (FMEA), development of new technologies, development of rules and regulations, finite element analysis, and the overall design, design approval, certification and inspection process. I believe that had OceanGate been contracted to provide the submersible services for an oil company it would have been required that the vessel be inspected, that a Certificate of Inspection (COI) be provided, that it would be Classed by one of the major Classification Societies, and that the vessel be inspected by the Classification Society on a regular basis. I can also say that based on the videos of the fabrication of the carbon fiber pressure hull, I have serious reservations concerning the design and fabrication. Everything that I have seen shows the hull being fabricated using a purely radial fabrication of the carbon fiber. If you look at the fabrication of a fiberglass boat the layers are placed in a crossing patern. The same is true of the plys of steel in a radial tire. If you consider the application of pressure on the hull as the Titan dives and surfaces the hull will shrink and expand both radially and longitudinally. What stops the wraps from pulling apart longitudinally? I hope that the USCG and the NTSB contract with someone like Design Research Engineering or Failure Analysis Associates to look into the design details of the Titan to determine how the failure occurred. Bob
In general, vessels carrying six or fewer passengers are not required to be inspected. Unless there is a specific section of the CFR for submersibles that requires all vessels to be inspected regardless of the number of passengers. That detail I don’t know.
@@HandmadeDarcy He had likely reached out to his lawyers ahead of time to find out exactly how to skirt the regulations and avoid inspections and classifications.
@@Smytjf11 Or he was so convinced of his intellectual superiority to all the "experts" that he really felt his design was above reproach. Its a bit like the first decade or two of aviation where you had all these owner/designers that sometimes had an engineering background, but were often winging it with their designs and thinking they had figured out some problem when they really hadn't. Their mistakes were often fatal for them or the test pilot.
Re: Cameron et al... It was safe all the way up until it wasn't safe. And the guy claimed his listening system would detect unsafe situation before they could escalate. It's a weird spot but i can understand why no one who knew it was unsafe went any further than they did. Some lessons you just have to learn by doing.
'Some lessons you just have to learn' by testing to destruction / failure - BEFORE taking 'mission specialists / passengers' almost all the way to what it's rated for (its crush depth?? calculated crush depth??) and then repeating that - without derating it?? This was Madness.
My view is the loss of this specific submersible is an extremely minor yet regrettable incident. Many more people are killed by medical mistakes which more often than not are covered up
Thanks for your thorough coverage of this! I’ve been following you before this and gaining so much knowledge and then to see all your news coverage and was amazing!
Just like sitting in on a lecture in your class Dr. Sal! Glad to see that your knowledge and hard work is continuing to pay off and be recognized! I appreciate you being so thorough on this tragedy. Such a shame that, in a way this lack of due diligence was caused by money and greed... Hope all is well Dr. Sal! Keep up the great work!
In the 2018 court case where ocean gate sued a former employee, one of they things they sued on was that he shared confidential reports. He spoke to OSHA, which is in the initial suit from ocean gate accusing the former employee stating he reported his concerns to OSHA.
Hay Sal. Good job hooking up with this tragedy. I'm a long time subscriber but I'm sure you are gaining some notoriety from your coverage. Good job with your reporting and questioning.
Excellent. I'm re-watching The Abyss tonight. I once worked on one of the actors boats, Capt. Kidd Brewer. Worked on the Calypso, too. Thanks...Semper Paratus
Greetings from New Zealand Sal. (Off topic).I have enjoyed your channel from day one with the Evergiven saga. I just wanted to congratulate you on the fantastic achievement of 100K subscribers. Your style of presentation and breadth of experience provides a really unique, interesting and fascinating viewing experience. Afrer some 30 odd years in the shipping industry (cargo and ship agency work here in NZ(now retired)) I enjoy keeping abreast of what is happening in the industry and your channel certainly does that! Keep up the good work and once again congatulations and many thanks, Sal
Thank you so much. I was on a run of New Zealand stories for a while. I am really fascinated by the situation of your country regarding shipping, your Navy and perspective. I had the opportunity to interface with a few senior members a few months ago when I was at a conference in British Columbia. They were top notch. Although one of the officers is one of the largest humans I have ever seen...imposing!
Sal, you need to read through the requirements of NVIC 5-93 fully. It's fascinating. My understanding is a COI is only required for submersible vessels carrying more than 6 passengers, which Titan was not. The only certificated submersibles (or Subchapter T)I am aware of are "Atlantis" type large 48 or so passenger tourist subs for shallow dives in tropical places. NVIC 5-93 even mentions this fact, and the rules you describe (only operating at approved locations, there is a depth limit, etc) are incompatible with this type of mission. My interpretation is Titan is, subchapter C, an uninspected passenger vessel. The key language there being "Because of the unique design and operating characteristics, as well as the inherent hazards of underwater operation, an uninspected submersible may be permitted in U.S. passenger operations only if it is designed and constructed to a recognized industry standard." which you pointed out. There is no current recognized industry standard for carbon fiber submersible construction. IANAL
@@megenberg8 that being said, you could spend the time and money to do extensive prototype testing and *create* the standard. There are procedures for certifying novel designs. That obviously didn't happen here.
So, exactly how many submersibles does the US Coast Guard or NTSB own or operate? When you need information on these things, you are going to have to go to people that operate these things (like navies, oilfield, research entities). One of the first things you will learn is that the crews must be highly trained, constantly drilled on emergencies (not just classroom), and going to sea with a knowledge of just how dangerous sub duty is and how quickly something can go bad with tragic results. The main thing I see that went wrong here is thinking submarine operations are spectator sports.
Just wanted to thank you for keeping us informed. I found your channel through the Evergreen ship in the Suez and you always deliver the goods Edit: I also just want to say I love the little fake trees. It's a vibe lol😂
Titan would need certification only if used in territorial waters, which it was not. It is not considered a ship and no registry for it is required. In international waters they can use it at their own risk. Thing is, lacking CG certification and registry, the CG is not responsible for rescue. OceansGate should be billed for the effort.
A big YES to you my friend. You get it. All these comments about safety 🛟🦺 are basing there comments on vessels that are Registered. International water is the modern day wild west, as one expert in the field said.
I thought the general rule of the sea is that one vessel should come to the aid of another crew that is in distress. Do you wave off a life boat saying, "We'll only pick you up if you can pay?" Of course that's what medical doctors do all the time.
*Some are a being a bit too lawyerly or fretting too much about the tax monies involved to understand what's important about accident investigations, aviation, marine or whatever.* These accident need to be investigated because, whatever the legalities, it is important to learn from them to prevent future accidents. The better an accident is investigated, the better the understanding about how a similar accident can be prevented in the future. The fact that the _Titanic_ was a British-flagged and British-built vessel in international waters (the same waters involved in this accident), doesn't mean the USCG and the Canadian Coast Guard didn't have an role to play in that investigation. Safety is everyone's responsibility. And in the case of the USCG, the investigation is important to determine how the submersible, built in the US., slipped through the cracks and never got certified. If the time isn't taken to learn from mistakes, those mistakes will be repeated.
I'm interested in improving the technology, and would have hoped for a safe dive. Even with all the bureaucratic red tape accidents still happen. This entire channel is mostly about marine disasters of one sort or another. Most recently several tank cars fell into the Yellowstone River due to a collapsed bridge. Presumably at some point the bridge was certified.
there is a photo of the inside of the fuselage, they screwed monitor mounts to the pressure hull. The DSV Alvin has no such mountings, a frame is inside the sphere and everything is bolted to that.
Titan was constructed in the United States the regulations required for it to be certified by the USCG even though it operated in international waters. One person spoke about looking to use Titan for a TV documentary. He was taken on a test five in Puget Sound, which is in US waters, making it subject to USCG jurisdiction. Looking at the design of this vessel as an engineer it is screaming imminent failure. I watched how the carbon fibre hull was wound, in a single direction. The designers have looked at the way carbon fibre is normally used in cylinders but missed two things. The multiple layers are wound forming diamond patterns as well as straight but more importantly the loading is tensile when holding pressure in. The submersible has to keep the pressure out this is a compressive loading, the exact opposite of the cylinder. The CEO was very resistant to inspection of the hull. They got rid of an employee who called for NDE and NDT of it. Claiming that the real time acoustic monitor would give plenty of warning. This shows a lack of understanding of the material. There may be some none structural delamination in aircraft wings or components but if the entire thickness of the hull was required to maintain integrity, the first problem would show itself as catastrophic failure and implosion.
Winding the carbon fiber like a small spool of thread doesn't provide much structure if any. Basically the tube was epoxy filled with carbon fiber. My feeling is most engineering is actually based on practical experience over time. I see this as a learning experience more than anything else. The loss of life, while tragic is rather insignificant. It's probably one of the least likely causes of death.
Hello, I’m new to your channel and enjoy your knowledge and content. I’m in commercial aviation and we fall under many FAR’s. I to am curious if the Titan was certified in any way. Unrelated and purely speculative on my part but I find myself having questions about the decision to join the fwd and aft bulkheads with whatever compound they used. I don’t have a great deal of knowledge about how pressure effects composites under water but we use them in aviation all the time. I was over thinking the fwd hatch closing design quite a bit. So being a mechanic and knowing what I know about nuts, bolts, torque, and pressure I can think of a few times in my life where I had something tightened but if you apply pressure to whatever it is your tightening the force of the nut is reduced. Here’s what I mean. They secured the hatch at ground atmospheric pressure and from what I could see from the limited information from videos I’ve seen they run nuts down and torque them. Fine. However, in my mind (right or wrong) I would assume that the more pressure applied to the hatch against the bulkhead the more gap you will have between the nut and matting surface. Am I wrong in thinking in this way? How can what you torque at sea level pressure remain the same at 6,000-8,000 psi or whatever they were subjected to? So, here’s a side note story that almost cost one of my friends lives. We have. Newer 757 in for a HMV check and about a week prior to delivery one of the guys had a task card to pressurize the potable water system. He was new to aviation and just obtained his A&P and very cocky. He used a high pressure regulator from the 3,000 psi nitrogen tank instead of the low pressure regulator he should have been using. The tanks are spun carbon fiber. He had a guy hugging the tank in the aft pit listening for leaks. I was in the aft galley area at the same time with a inspector. Luckily at the same moment in time the mechanic in the pit and the inspector and myself decided to leave the aircraft and continue with the night. I made it behind the #2 engine and the same time the mechanic exited the aft pit when I turned and thought a aircraft had slammed into the hangar door. It split that potable water tank like a biscuit can opens. Just like it. Completely destroyed everything in the aft pit. The water fill line came THROUGH the floor boards, intercostals, Mylar, and moon mat. Destroying a frame along the way. It would have killed him and god knows what to me as I was standing directly above that area. Pressure is a destructive force when let loose. The fact United stated that they haven’t heard of that happening before scared me.
There's screw hole in your drywall causing structural damage to your house. Whatever caused the hull failure most likely was'nt easily noticed. It wasn't any of the things most people are complaining about such as the game controller or used pipe ballast.
@@JoeLinux2000 could have been the viewing port, the joins of the ends with the body, but most likely failure d/t use of carbon fiber hull in environment of great compression. Its tensile strength is much better than its compression strength, and it has a history of sudden fracturing into pieces when it fails. We may never know, implosion is incredibly destructive in force.
I have no expertise in this matter but having followed the whole thing for the last week it sounds like their was or is no “governing body” for deep sea exploration that would have the authority to stop them from doing what they did. It sounds like experts and members from the deep sea community had all expressed their concerns before hand and been ignored. But it sounds like nobody had any authority to actually stop the sailing of the submersible.
Yep. If they were concerned enough to write that letter, the only reason I can see for not taking the matter further is because there was no way to do so. Rush did a hell of a lot of legal wriggling to make sure no authorities could get in the way of his project. Besides, how do you warn the public directly when the business owner has a fragile ego and more than enough money to sue anyone who 'personally insults' him by having concerns?
I can understand why Cameron et. al. didn't go public about it - they did warn Stockton directly, allowing him to make the right decision, but also didn't want to overstep. Could have been a lengthy mud slinging contest, or even legal issue if they publicly stated that the sub was unsafe. Could they have done more? Probably - but it's ultimately not their responsibility.
Firstly I will never trust load bering carbon fibre. I know many who had accidents when their socalled strong brand named bicycle failed a few of which involved major injury such as coring a leg muscle on anew triathlon bike only ridden by a 117lb female! Second the sub: What was the carbon fibre wound on? Did it have any destructive testing? Did it have any non-destructive testing like Xrays, sound, physical damage like bubbles that could show delamination? Was it used beyond its tested or designed depth? Maybe the window was tested to 1300m, the bell was tested to 3800m! Were the seals tested?
I do have a west system resin coated CF sock over PML resin impregnated Kraft tubing on a 38mm minimum diameter rocket that I flew on a CTI J motor to well over 10,000 feet in 1.8s, the nosecone popped at apogee at 4s but the chute did not deploy it screamed to the ground at CFB Gagetown in a few seconds and hit rock, it lost an inch of forward airframe. I have sheared surface CF on subsequent launches. CF sock is a full length piece of CF material in a tubular form.
Great show Sal. Exactly what I been saying the mother ship was certified by the Coast Guard why wasn't the sub. At least for basic equipment radio and beacon. Especially anything for hire leaving any US or Canadian ports. Experimental aircrafts to drones are regulated by the FAA. The Coast Guard dropped the ball...
They were in international waters outside Canadian or US jurisdiction. The mother ship was registered in Canada. Stop blaming CG for the stupidity of one man. The mother ship set sail from Canada but was not put in operation until it hit international water.
One other question comes up in my mind about the Coast Guard doing any certification or inspection is did this vehicle somehow slipped through the cracks was allowed to continue operating with a wink and a nod was there some special experimental grouping that it operated under so it didn't have to be certified or inspected which doesn't make sense considering that paying passengers I think when this is all said and done there needs to be an investigation of the Coast Guard to see why they drop the ball on their end and if they simply did not know of the existence of the submersible inside the United States I'd say they were sloppy if they didn't get to it I'd say they were negligent and derelict in their Duty
There is a copy of the Waiver floating around on the internet. I know it says that the Sub is not Certified. I am pretty sure it describes it as an experimental vessel not inspected or certified by any Coast Guard or Governing Body. That alone might work to the families favor legally.
I like your points. I would also add that the US and Canadian Coast Guards performed an extensive SAR operation at significant cost. I think this might be where the US Coast has a vested interest in the safety of this operation. There is also the possibility this was a rouge vessel, not sure???
I think the finger pointing and ass covering is going to be a long drawn out process. I would also like to be a fly on the wall at dinner when you and your Mrs. discuss the finer details of a legal wording in the law. Our family dinner table is when we have discussions on all sorts of topics like this so I assume yours is no different lol.
I can't wait for you to find out about which insurance company covered this dive. Dollars to donuts, I bet they skipped the insurance too. Mercy! Hope I'm wrong.
James Cameron let people know. He figured they would have investigated it further. James Cameron isn’t in a position to stop them. He his absolutely right in my opinion
My question in all of this, how was this company allowed to operate period? The abhorrent “safety” culture, the red flags all over the place this was an unsafe company building submersible death traps for $250K. Even if the crafts they were working on were “experimental”, it’s still should’ve been classified as a submersible period, and if it was rejected for classification and certification there should’ve been a meeting with Ocean Gate to determine what they’re working on, and that without any kind of certification on the Titan or other submersible craft they wouldn’t be allowed to operate in US waters. Of course they operated in international waters to avoid US Coast Guard jurisdiction and US Law, but in terms of the US laws and regulations I find it incredible they completely avoided the rules and regulations and governing bodies. So I’m curious to know if they actually should’ve been flagged sooner by governing bodies and had their operating licenses pulled. Considering former employees are coming out and speaking about the unsafe work culture at the company and the botched engineering going on, I can’t believe this company and Stockton Rush completely avoided being looked over. So I’m very curious to see what comes out of this investigation, and I’m sure Ocean Gate is gonna be completely leveled by this as they should be.
Do you get as upset when drugs are put on the market that kill millions of people, or with Chrysler for the fires of their SUV? Or when airlines overlook safety issues killing millions? We live within an imperfect world. One needs to adjust their anger appropriately not focus just on 1, when there are many others doing worse and still operating! Why I read in news outlet, there are many dentist they said that are habitual alcoholics . And have a license still.
Very well done! Thank you. Rush did everything possible to avoid the law, certification, blocked out all calls of extreme danger, hunted his prey to become clients for his tourism business. went out of his way to sell the trip and once in a life time experience, yet didnt care who he might kill ! this seems to me a very morbid individual, a very cold hearted man. He didn't care about anyone but himself. that is very obvious! and he did kill a total of five people. even after being told cracking of sub in deep water was indication of something loose! And when sub went deeper it cracked even more loudly! every indication of something giving away, bending, along with being told by the experts those cracks are indication of extreme pressure cause material to move. People like this are extreme con artist and very dangerous as we see.
@@nightw4tchman There was a media story, early on in this saga, where Rush was quoted at a GeekWire conference in Seattle. Rush said he took a carbon-fiber prototype down to 4,000 meters, and it "made a lot of troubling noises" both times. He added that Oceangate scrapped that hull and built another one using an aerospace supplier. The noises were allegedly picked up by his acoustic monitoring system of the hull. This would have been back in 2018, I think. Where the "cracking" statement came from might be Lochridge, the employee who was fired after he objected to the accoustic monitoring as an unsafe way to detect failure (comes way late in the hull failure process, too late for safely getting to the surface). Or the cracking noise story might have come from an engineer (Karl Larsen?) who was on an early test dive, and advised Rush in an email that the sub hull needed a redo.The story about the sub is murky, too. Apparently there was a prototype Cyclops 1, then Cyclops 2 (redone hull), which was actually Titan after it was renamed right before starting with the "Mission Specialist" phase.
I'm a USCG marine inspector and love the channel. This statement does not represent the opinion of the entire Coast Guard, just my personal observations. I'm surprised by your confusion here. 46 CFR 4.40-5 includes one possible definition of a major marine casualty as a "Serious threat, as determined by the Commandant and concurred in by the Chairman, to life, property, or the environment by hazardous materials." Whether it is a major or not is determined during the preliminary investigation, as described in 46 CFR 4.40-10. And then if it is determined to be a major, the USCG and NTSB will usually work together on the investigation as described in 46 CFR 4.40-15(b)(3). Just because USCG is investigating does not mean the USCG is saying it is a vessel they are responsible for, or that it is a U.S. certificated vessel. In fact the USCG just opened up an investigation on a series of Arctic passenger vessel casualties, one of which was not U.S. registered, did not operate out of the U.S., occured outside U.S. waters, and no U.S. passengers were onboard. But it was another casualty in a string of related issues, so USCG is investigating to see if a trend can be gleaned from this vessel. I do agree that this being classified as a major is a huge deal. It may mean that USCG is seeing this regulatory loophole, and trying to figure out a way to close it. Or perhaps they are interested in the feasibility of carbon fiber hulls. Or maybe they see the need to update the 30 year old submersible inspection guidance, and this investigation can assist with that. I am not really sure what the admirals and captains are thinking, but this being a major is a huge deal.
There is a video of OceanGate adding the ring dome on the front of the sub ..its described in the vid as some kind of epoxy , glue thats like peanut butter , engineers were adding it ..its mind boggling
Sal we sailors knew when the communication was gone the vessel imploded because of the pressure of that depth including the engineering of such a vessel because education that everyone should be taught to perform themself and retain a marine attorney to advice if the trip was safe but "common sense isn't common" my dad's favorite sentence.
This could change many aspects of ocean exploration and 'leisure craft' and will take years to play out - in courts... "and versus or" notwithstanding. You're looking good Dr. Sal!! I hope Campbell University gave you that nice sweater... after all the interviews you're giving - THEY do well with you being such a quotable authority (wearing their colors)!!
This is the first time that I have seen someone calling out James Cameron for not calling out OceanGate over safety concerns BEFORE the Titan disaster. Even though it's not Cameron's company or competitor, he seems like one of the most knowledgeable people on the issue of deep sea submersibles? Well done 👍🏻
He is but keep in mind he’s still a screen writer and was probably working on getting Avatar the way of the water and other movies produced when this was being built he can’t be everywhere at once, it’s also entirely possible he thought they knew something he didn’t.
Bravo Dr Sal. High time someone calls this catastrophe as it actually is! Honestly, Dr Sal highlights some very serious holes here, particularly as far as classification, certification and everything in between goes. I completely agree that this entire fiasco that was Titan, has been lost so thoroughly in translation here. The safety of life has been totally lost in between legalities and common sense. The other issue here is that if you have enough money, you can do whatever you please regardless of lives at stake. I am flabbergasted that this submersible literally flew through every crack ever set up to regulate sea faring around the world. No one was overlooking this crazy project, no one checked and certified it’s sea worthiness, no one did a thing. I hope people involved in policy formulation watch this channel as a matter of daily routine.
12:00 To answer your question why lawyers do not give a straight answer is... it the courts that do that/to rule on it and make it fact etc. Add to this the document is not a filing or court document and they could get into trouble with the bar if they push this too far as well.
My read of that regulation is, even with the "or", ANY US built vessel is certified by the USCG (no matter where it is operated). ANY vessel operating in US water is certified by USCG. As Titan was built in the US, it doesn't matter where it was being used, it should have been certified by the USCG. If it was made elsewhere and operated in international waters, then its not certified by the USCG
'jurisdiction' is a strong word, and to be fair as you point out, they can investigate all they want, yet as far as jurisdiction is concerned, I didn't see anything saying all others (Canada, GB, etc) must differ to the USCG/NTSB on this investigation, just that the USCG/NTSB is opening an investigation. as far as US owned, where is the address, the P.O. box for OceanGate, Everett Washington USA, that may be enough to kick this off as far as USA alphabet soup is concerned.
Correct. He would do himself and his viewers a favor to reign in the hyperbole in which he routinely engages. The Coast Guard's own announcement of the investigation explicitly states that it will be working with other national and international authorities.
James Cameron said he wished he’d spoken up. Also how did Stockton Rich not know that carbon fiber is only strong in tensile loads and worthless under compression? This is day one shit of strengths of materials 101. Also he bought the carbon fiber material at a considerable discount from Boeing because it had passed its shelf life. This guy knew he was buying subpar materials and refused to certify it. sounds like recklessness to me.
I really appreciate that you cover the Titan Accident from this specific angle. I also like your opinion of James Cameron's statement. If so many people were truly concerned and were so sure and positive how dangerous all these missions were - why didn't they express their doubts/concerns more often or tried to reach an authority...? I know that it wasn't there responsibility, but it leaves a strange, bitter aftertaste that people like him and especially journalists - who were once so enthusiastically reporting and writing about the Titan or Oceangate as a whole (and seemingly ignoring the Lawsuit against Lochridge or the Letter by the MTS) now act as if they all knew what would happen and as if they haven't pushed Oceangate to more popularity... Of course, it's nothing new and it hasn't happened for the first time - and it probably won't be for the last time, but it makes me feel uncomfortable ... A lot of people are getting quite the publicity by voicing an opinion they all seemed to have had for a long time and that they could've voiced a lot sooner - which might have changed the course of recent history. But as usual, especially concerning safety regards, we have to learn from accidents like these and I'm sure that a lof of things are going to change, so that hopefully something like this will never happen again.
i think its very important to note that the CEO was not only an engineer himself, but was insistent that his submersible had been tested and designed with engineers from places like Boeing and NASA. for example, i saw this when it was first designed, and as an engineer, was worried. but the lead engineer insisted their design was solid and that highly admirable engineers were a part in it. i never thought that an engineer, certainly not one who is venturing the ocean, would depend on a system as fragile as we now know it to be. i.e, no damage assessments on the pressure vessel, WIRELESS controller, no emergency beacon?? no machine to dive down along side them if they need? its things that engineers cant even comprehend as not being there because they are simple, basic laws of engineering. i think media will always be gross and paint a narrative, but i do believe those who had concerns before were genuine, and that the CEO mislead or discouraged them into speaking up about it. he truly believed so much in his design that he was blind to hundreds of possible errors. i feel sad he never got to realize he was wrong, and even more that 4 others were affected by his unethical decisions in the end
A question that I would have is did some of these folks reach out to the Coast Guard over the years and basically get blown off either because the Coast Guard didn't want to spend money investigating this "dinky" little submersible when it has all sorts of other budgetary struggles, or did Stockton Rush get political cover in place, so if the Coast Guard did start to ask questions, some in Congress started to ask questions about why the Coast Guard needed items in their budget or quietly held up or threatened to hold up some promotions within the Coast Guard that require Congressional approval. Also, was the Coast Guard wishy-washy about whether they had jurisdiction over this vessel and simply did not want to waste a lot of time and effort only to have the courts tell them they are wasting their time. This was a billionaires' toy and they usually don't like being told by governments what they can and can't do and have the money and lawyers to buy the necessary people to see that their fun isn't spoiled.
@@mmeggnn This! I watched a lot of Interviews with Rush. Just a few seconds ago I finished watching his GW Summit Power Talk (which you can also find on YT) and to be honest: Yeah, he seems to have a lot of trust in the Carbon-Fiber design of the Titan - and the acoustic control of the hull... I'm not sure, if I understood Rush correctly (I'm german and English is not my mother tongue), but he also mentioned in the GW Talk that he tested the material or rather one of his constructions in a chamber at UW with over 6000 PSI (which is approximately the PSI you have near the Titanic, if I recall correctly) - and that he heard the material break and that this was the 'loudest thing' he's ever heard and that it 'shifted the whole building' and even broke the pressure sensors at UW which he had to rebuy... Of course, in hindsight, I don't know if all of this is true, but still - I notice his confidence - not for the first time - and I mean, yes, you have to be confident in the vessel you're using - or REALLY ignorant! - in order to put yourself repeatedly in there and to dive deep into the ocean ... After watching and hearing him talk in a lot of videos, I'm positive that it wasn't the ladder, ignorance but confidence which he had in abundance... I do not only feel sorry for the four passengers he took with him, but also for Rush himself, despite his sense of grandeur.
Re the US requirements and classification discussed at the approx. 8:30 mark. I think it does apply to the titan because it was built in the U.S. and it meets the other general requirements within the scope if this regulation. The reg appears to imply it’s either one or the other. The latter would cover submersibles not built in the U.S. but operating in the U.S. waters.
Appreciate your effort to figure out the governing requirements. The difference between Certification Authority, Technical Authority, and Programmatic Authority, does not seem to be clearly defined based on your research. This is the starting point for any rigorous certification process (just my opinion). Also the proper requirements for vehicle structural integrity is "Pressure Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy" which is an ASME spec. if memory serves. The ABS piping and pressure vessel section would apply only if it covers external pressure modes of failure such as elastic instability. ABS may cover this based on the title but I'm not sure. There are other DSS unique technical aspects such as structural compensation for pressure hull penetrators and viewports.
As an ex-yachtsman (age thing) living in UK, as well as an (ex) scuba diver who got involved in nautical archaeology, I really enjoy your channel. However, in case you weren't aware, in some recent vids, e.g. wreckage of Titan, the sound & vid were completely out of sync. No idea why, but just thought might be worth you knowing. Anyway, keep uo the good work (synced or not!)!
Sal, I seem to recall a short youtube video on the Titan where Stockton Rush was signing some sort of document stating that he was admitting that certain possible safeth problems with the Titan could possibly come up and he was taking some sort of personal responsibility in proceeding with the project even though regulatory authorities would not certify the submersible's safety in proceeding according to Rush's plans. Sorry I can't recall the video but it is out there.
One thing I know is that when you are going to pay big money to go on an obviously dangerous deep dive submersible, you want proper government certification like an "emergency use authorization."
James Cameron was one of 3 dozen who spoke out. How is his responsibility to travk down everyone that Stockton sells seats to? I think they clearly did their due diligence. Its completely on the tourist for putting their lives in Stocktons hands without vetting him. For 250 g's youd think they would look into it. Its more crazy to me that PH didn't know any better. He had quite a bit of submersible experience. I do hope OceanGate is goind liable or responsible to some degree, but I cant kick the feeling that if I go skydiving and willfully overlook that CRAZY waiver and the fact that the company has a very checkered past.
the only thing i can see them getting in trouble for is the "test" dives they do close to land in sheltered seas, the video "Titanic Sub Tourism Expedition - Exclusive Footage (My Personal Experience)" by "DALLMYD" shows them doing a test dive, with paying customers, not in international waters
Today, on a news segment with the mother/wife of the Pakastani father and son, she said her son was thrilled to go on the dive and was planning on solving a Rubik's Cube while down there in the hope of setting a world record. Earlier it was reported the son was terrified to go and only did so with reluctance. Both can't be true
Weeeeeellllll yes and no. He may have been terrified and told the aunt. But wanted to please his parents and to manage both feelings came up with something to be excited about
Wonderful Sal, although it's a sad story. "I am not a lawyer although I have been married to one for 32 years" almost took me off my chair. You also had some other very fine lines in this post. There are cracks that things fall through. Sometimes by people that "explore". If the explorations do not put you in prison or kill you, I guess "fill your boots" as we say around here. I also like the Campbell U jacket covering your Hawaiian shirt, although they are okay too. Best.
@LantanaLiz… The critique will be what starts the argument. The lawyer is what will continue the argument for years. That’s how they run up chargeable hours. And, Sal will pay, and pay, and pay, and pay. 😂
Sal as I said before the issue this side of canada is ship left st-John's harbour with this sub. Lots people mad because why they charge money when edmond fitz is out bound for visit and bid thing maritime lawyer around globe focus on canada.thank for time on media and video.
Off topic, general question: How are electical connections made through the pressure vessel to equipment outside, such as electric thrusters, on a deep submersible vehicle used at depths like the Titanic wreck?
Good question. In this case I think the wireless controller allows it to operate through the hull. In general it is possible to (carefully) seal connections with o-rings.
I don’t see based on this video how the USCG has any authority here. It’s not a US flagged vessel and its not been inspected or classified by anyone. It’s clear Ocean Gate was operating in a totally unregulated manner. It also doesn’t seem to fit the requirements for a major investigation. If anyone has the right to investigate it’s either Canada from when the mother ship departed and was registered or the Bahamas where the sub was reportedly registered.
I discovered your very informative channel while reading coverage in regards the unfortunate loss of the Titan and its crew. It appears there was many concerns with operation of the Ocean Gate Titan, where as it appears Ocean Gate played with the "rules" with their other vessels. It is unfortunate that the late Mr. Rush decided to "break" the rules with the Titan project and wasn't not rained in by the submersible community/government body before this event occurred. Sadly, Ocean Gate and Mr. Rush will be judged as wreck less after the Titan loss and passing of the adventure seeking "mission specialist's" even after Ocean Gate did conduct some very safe dives with their other vessels. Hopefully, the investigation will provide closure for the family's and information/ government procedures to prevent another tragedy of this nature.
I am familiar with dealing with a can of worms, but not so sure about a 55 gallon drum of them. This is your most entertaining video yet, making popcorn as we speak.
I believe that at this point the NTSB/USCG/Canada are most interested in developing mechanisms to prevent any further dives to the Titanic or other sites of interest where vessels either flagged or departing from US/Canada ports. They will attempt to either bury 'tourists' in regulations and inspection regimes and/or insurance requirements.
I'm curious what role Holland & Knight play in relationship to the Titan submersible. Are they just issuing a paper of general knowledge or are they somehow involved in the insurance of the submersible? I think the points you made regarding the Coast Guard and an investigation come down to the fact that the submersible was manufactured in the United States and if it left United States never to return to the country or its Waters then to Coast Guard would be hands off of an investigation. But, since it was homeported in Everett Washington as well as initially manufactured in the United States I feel that that gives the Coast Guard enough authority to do investigation and the impudence, if relevant enough to their mission, to require them to do the investigation. Obviously if they undertake this they would then have the ability to request additional aid from organizations such as the NTSB, as well as any organizations or assets from Canada. Just my interpretation...
@tapalmer99 I read Titan was registered home is Bahamas, under OceanGate Expeditions, a separate entity is OceanGate ,Inc registered in Everett, Wa. I think they also had a foundation at one time.
My time with passenger vessels has lead me to think the point a lot of people are missing, is that the experimental nature of Titan (e.g the game controller, the camping world lights, or the composite hull) is not the main issue here. That is all well fine and dandy, but the moment you introduce paying passengers, is where all the legal trouble starts with not having the vessel properly certified. I have a 22’ boat, and I take my friends out. They go out for free and there’s no illegal issues. However, if I start charging a fee, that vessel needs to be certified and classified as a passenger vessel and fall under USCG rules and regulations. When you take a trip on any passenger vessel in the US, that ticket is actually a legally binding contract stating that in exchange for your money, the operator of the vessel is required to provide you a safe voyage to your destination. Of which, Ocean Gate did not provide a safe voyage and was not classified to do so, which therein lies the problem with the whole situation. The only guy on that trip who knew the extent of its capabilities was Stockton, and I highly doubt his full knowledge was shared with the 3 paying passengers. I could be wrong about some of that, however that’s my interpretation of the laws surrounding passenger vessels.
@@gordonrichardson2972 oh I wouldn’t doubt that they had some way figured out to call it a passenger vessel without calling it a passenger vessel. If I know that information above, they certainly do too. How does all that hold up in court, will remain to be seen in the next coming months.
@MLGVorkScoper perhaps you overlooked these were research missions with mission specialist of a research interest in history, the monies were contributions used for research. Now, maybe some of those dollars were used to chip in for the cost expense to obtain mother ship in order to carry out research expedition. I read where his future goal was to get his own ROV in his vessel to transmit in real time the ocean floor with Titanic into classrooms for educational learning. A functioning brain, indeed, the concept, this idea, truly amazing! He probably could have done so much more. Loss of a brilliant mind. He led no one on, but there are many haters out there. And, they know who they are!
@@maryannsinopoli1751 again, these people paid for a safe dive, that’s the job of the operator of the vessel. Research or not, that’s your job as a vessel owner and operator, to provide a safe voyage and evidently that was not done. I’m not saying he lead anyone on, but due diligence to determine vessel structural integrity, especially based on the experimental design, was not done. Plain and simple.
Eerily similar to the space shuttle Challenger. The Morton Thiokol engineer who warned NASA about the O rings on the solid rocket boosters not being viable after being subjected to freezing temperatures. NASA decided to take a chance as they had dodged the bullet on previous flights.
The Challenger similarity. is covered on 'just alex' TH-cam site (there are 2, one is a deep sea risk/safety expert). There was a vast discrepancy between what the O-ring developers estimated on it's failure risk at low temps, and what some engineers estimated (just 1 in 100). Sadly, the engineers turned out to be right.
Surely as titan was operating from a Canadian ship, and directed from this Canadian ship, it is a tender to that Canadian ship and the responsibility of that Canadian ship?
If this submersible vessel is classed, it could have been due for an intermediate survey before it did this catastrophic dive. An MPI/NDT of its hull could have been done which could have saved the lives of its passengers.
NTSB regarding the East Palestine, Ohio train toxic bomb that the chemical company told North Fork Railroad the cars were NOT in danger of explosion per the temperature of the outside as only at half from the 330 that the cars never reached 190. Railroad refused to allow the chemical company to speak with the workers at the derailment. The railroad wanted the tracks cleared ASAP to not lose money for safer procedure for clearing the derailment. Listen to the two days of NTSB on C SPAN.
One issue I think you miss is that Ocean Gate/Stockton Rush didn't call any of their clients "passengers", they were all "mission specialists", even the 19 year old kid. "Passengers" brings in all kinds of addition requirements under not only the CFR's but IMO regulations. This is right in line with company narratives about safety and inspection and I think furthers your argument that the TITAN didn't have a COI/wasn't inspected.
I guess they were specialists in having a lot of money.
@@timjackson3954 250k is not "a lot of money" in the deep diving world, it's peanuts. I doubt it was even enough to cover the costs of this shoddy operation.
@@timjackson3954great comment! 🙄
Good point, it suggests the old saw about a sow's ear being called a silk purse, no matter what you call it, it is still a sow's ear. A 19 year old as a "mission specialist" pulease.
Just because they were called that, doesn't mean that the investigation will agree. Which I guess is what you are saying, I think they'll say they (passengers) didn't get enough training to qualify etc so should've been passengers and classed as such
“…a non-inspected submersible may be permitted in US passenger operations only if it is designed and constructed to a recognized industry standard.”
I think it’s safe to say Titan was not adhering to recognized industry standards.
I don't really care. It made 12 trips to the Titanic. 13 is an unlucky number.
@@JoeLinux2000 Do you have a source for that?
@@JoeLinux2000
I think this is one of the dumbest comments I've ever read on TH-cam. All I can find is that it made 3 or 4 trips to the titanic, and that was on their own website lmao.
@@JoeLinux2000billionaire apollo 13.
I watched a TH-cam channel that said it was in use for three seasons and it had been down and back before. It never said how many trips it had made.
To make it worse, OceanGate Inc. was using it’s 501(c) charitable foundation, OceanGate Foundation, to justify it’s business venture. This is a huge clusterf*.
Their whole ops is sketchy and sus.
Was the $250k per passenger booked as a donation?
Election fraud in the US is a bigger problem.
@@cheapcraftygirlsweepstakes2338now, now, they weren't _passengers;_ they were ✌️mission specialists✌️
@@SeanCMonahan Now they have been elevated to "mission specimens."
From what James Cameron has said, he was not paying close attention to OceanGate and this particular sub. He had concerns about using carbon fibre for deep submersibles a decade ago when he was building the one he went in down to Challenger Deep. There was another team in competition with him planning to use a design very similar to Titan, he told them straight up they would die in that thing. In the end it was never used. To be fair to him he's a busy man, still making movies. I know others in the industry wrote to Stockton Rush to express their concerns. I suppose if there was no oversight from the authorities on what the company was doing, the only other thing they could have done would be to go public? Even then I don't know if that would have stopped OceanGate from operating and prevented this tragedy.
He said that he kind of assumed they knew something he didn't or had some new breakthrough with CFC or at least that they knew what they where doing...
But yeah he raised concerns about the DSV that was going to use the same style pressure vessel. Interestingly even that was only ever meant to be used once. 11 km down, set some sort of a record and surface directly into a museum. Taking it down multiple times was extra... brave.
next time anything like this looks as though it's too big a chore to take on - let others know ASAP - anyone, absolutely ANYONE who will help!! everyone was putty in this man's hands!!!
@@megenberg8 When I see someone operating a powered lawn mower, I'll be sure to call the authorities right away.
Cameron and the others who think the design is bad, at the ending of the day, is just an opinion. They cannot prove it unless they test the design themselves which is not going to happen. I suspected that up to that point, Ocean Gate has not break any law. This was really nothing to report. If Cameron just openly talk shit about them, they could just sue him. So I also think there is really nothing to do other than let Ocean Gate know of their concern.
This continuing discussion on the Titan is still fascinating and enlightening to such a tragedy. Thank you Sal 🙏
only tragedy was the 19 year old kid. all the rest were hilarious as hell. dude purposely skirted safety... said safety was a waste. he fucked around and found out. everyone else knew it too but went along with it. only the 19 year old son was an innocent. the rest reaped what they sowed.
@@weskirkland5850 He didn't skirt safety. He did push the limits of the technology and miscalculated. My aunt died on the operating table at the Mayo Clinic getting a hip replacement. She traveled all the way from California to the Mayo clinic. She may have done better in Calif.. Who knows?
Did old pipe ballast cause the problem? Did the fact that the hatch was bolted shut cause the problem? Did the game controller cause the problem? I saw the 747 that the cargo door blew off sitting on the tarmac at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii I think 7 passengers were sucked out of the plane and into the engines. My guess is that plane was fully certified. It took months to patch it up, and then they few it to Seattle allegedly for more proper repairs.
I wish a movie with some conspiracy twists emerges. Would be intriguing so many real questions in this. I hope it names true identities also. I’d watch and rewatch it! What a nifty spin!
So much to digest and ponder. As always, Sal, thank you for your clarity and insights. TH-cam channel "Sub Brief" gave you an awesome compliment on a recent video he posted.
Aaron is great at Sub Brief. I gave him a shout out at the end.
I watched until 40 seconds to go and missed it! My bad!
It seems that the company did everything they could to side step as many safely rules as possible.
There is a good reason why such systems have a maximum service life. And they knew it. It was just one cycle to many.
Stockton Rush appears to have been a skilled and believable con man adept at telling people what they thought they needed to hear, while disregarding concerns at every turn.
@@andrewtaylor940
It does seem to be the case.
It's just a pity that his ego took 4 other people with him. Of course their own egoes did play a part in their deaths as well.
If they had a certificate of inspection, they would have publicized that fact.
I'm sure it would have made the craft safer. Now every time Sal posts a video on a marine disaster, he will have to include a discussion of the ship's documentation. Why are ships registered in places like Majuro? The entire marine industry is a scam when you think about it.
th-cam.com/video/z3b4Cuot4C4/w-d-xo.html
They did the reverse: claimed to operate under no regulation or standard in the waivers that their clients signed. That pretty much is an admission of operating an unflagged submersible.
I almost hate to say this because I love your channel. It sounds like you are laying some responsibility on people in the industry who were observing from a distance as we are now. The people who purchased a ride on this vessel were among the wealthiest on earth and certainly had the resources to find out how safe this obviously hazardous trip would be. In my mind there is no where else to lay the blame.
If I were worth billions, I would have a team of people assessing risk. I'm sure they would have told me to find a better vessel or commission one built.
The next time I go on a two mile deep submersible ride for a 1/4 of a million, I want it fully certified. Of course that might raise the cost of the ticket to a straight one million. and I would want food service and comfortable seating along with a proper restroom.
There's an analogy in financial investing. "Accredited investors" have access to some high-risk investments that most people don't, with less required disclosure of that risk, due to the investors' sophistication (which is presumed from their high net worth.) Since they can afford to pay for advice, they don't need hand-holding.
You should have Legal Vices on to discuss this, he is a Maritime Lawyer. Great Job on this as always, Sal!
Sal,
All of your observations and the comments are very interesting. When reading the reporting and watching the videos I ask myself, if this was a major operator like a major oil company or one of their contractors would the Titan have been permitted to operate? The answer is a resounding, NO!
While I worked for the marine departments of major oil companies for the majority of my career, I have a very limited exposure to the workings of submersibles. I have, however, had exposure to significant incidents, failure modes and effects analysis (FMEA), development of new technologies, development of rules and regulations, finite element analysis, and the overall design, design approval, certification and inspection process.
I believe that had OceanGate been contracted to provide the submersible services for an oil company it would have been required that the vessel be inspected, that a Certificate of Inspection (COI) be provided, that it would be Classed by one of the major Classification Societies, and that the vessel be inspected by the Classification Society on a regular basis.
I can also say that based on the videos of the fabrication of the carbon fiber pressure hull, I have serious reservations concerning the design and fabrication. Everything that I have seen shows the hull being fabricated using a purely radial fabrication of the carbon fiber. If you look at the fabrication of a fiberglass boat the layers are placed in a crossing patern. The same is true of the plys of steel in a radial tire. If you consider the application of pressure on the hull as the Titan dives and surfaces the hull will shrink and expand both radially and longitudinally. What stops the wraps from pulling apart longitudinally?
I hope that the USCG and the NTSB contract with someone like Design Research Engineering or Failure Analysis Associates to look into the design details of the Titan to determine how the failure occurred.
Bob
In general, vessels carrying six or fewer passengers are not required to be inspected. Unless there is a specific section of the CFR for submersibles that requires all vessels to be inspected regardless of the number of passengers. That detail I don’t know.
How many regulations was this guy so deliberately juuust squeezing by? 😩🤬
@@HandmadeDarcy He had likely reached out to his lawyers ahead of time to find out exactly how to skirt the regulations and avoid inspections and classifications.
@@kentvesser9484it's like he wanted to die
@@Smytjf11 Or he was so convinced of his intellectual superiority to all the "experts" that he really felt his design was above reproach. Its a bit like the first decade or two of aviation where you had all these owner/designers that sometimes had an engineering background, but were often winging it with their designs and thinking they had figured out some problem when they really hadn't. Their mistakes were often fatal for them or the test pilot.
I want a proper toilet when I go.
Re: Cameron et al... It was safe all the way up until it wasn't safe. And the guy claimed his listening system would detect unsafe situation before they could escalate. It's a weird spot but i can understand why no one who knew it was unsafe went any further than they did. Some lessons you just have to learn by doing.
'Some lessons you just have to learn' by testing to destruction / failure - BEFORE taking 'mission specialists / passengers' almost all the way to what it's rated for (its crush depth?? calculated crush depth??) and then repeating that - without derating it?? This was Madness.
@@bc-guy852there you have it.
My view is the loss of this specific submersible is an extremely minor yet regrettable incident. Many more people are killed by medical mistakes which more often than not are covered up
Thanks for your thorough coverage of this! I’ve been following you before this and gaining so much knowledge and then to see all your news coverage and was amazing!
Just like sitting in on a lecture in your class Dr. Sal! Glad to see that your knowledge and hard work is continuing to pay off and be recognized! I appreciate you being so thorough on this tragedy. Such a shame that, in a way this lack of due diligence was caused by money and greed... Hope all is well Dr. Sal! Keep up the great work!
In the 2018 court case where ocean gate sued a former employee, one of they things they sued on was that he shared confidential reports. He spoke to OSHA, which is in the initial suit from ocean gate accusing the former employee stating he reported his concerns to OSHA.
This is great information! Good job
Thank you!
My sister played softball at Campbell and I grew up just outside of Dunn in Falcon. Glad to see your channel growing and appreciate the coverage!
Hay Sal. Good job hooking up with this tragedy. I'm a long time subscriber but I'm sure you are gaining some notoriety from your coverage. Good job with your reporting and questioning.
top quality, thank you. found you via sub brief and initially found him via twitter.
Excellent. I'm re-watching The Abyss tonight. I once worked on one of the actors boats, Capt. Kidd Brewer. Worked on the Calypso, too. Thanks...Semper Paratus
Greetings from New Zealand Sal.
(Off topic).I have enjoyed your channel from day one with the Evergiven saga. I just wanted to congratulate you on the fantastic achievement of 100K subscribers. Your style of presentation and breadth of experience provides a really unique, interesting and fascinating viewing experience. Afrer some 30 odd years in the shipping industry (cargo and ship agency work here in NZ(now retired)) I enjoy keeping abreast of what is happening in the industry and your channel certainly does that! Keep up the good work and once again congatulations and many thanks, Sal
Thank you so much. I was on a run of New Zealand stories for a while. I am really fascinated by the situation of your country regarding shipping, your Navy and perspective. I had the opportunity to interface with a few senior members a few months ago when I was at a conference in British Columbia. They were top notch. Although one of the officers is one of the largest humans I have ever seen...imposing!
Sal, you need to read through the requirements of NVIC 5-93 fully. It's fascinating. My understanding is a COI is only required for submersible vessels carrying more than 6 passengers, which Titan was not. The only certificated submersibles (or Subchapter T)I am aware of are "Atlantis" type large 48 or so passenger tourist subs for shallow dives in tropical places. NVIC 5-93 even mentions this fact, and the rules you describe (only operating at approved locations, there is a depth limit, etc) are incompatible with this type of mission. My interpretation is Titan is, subchapter C, an uninspected passenger vessel. The key language there being "Because of the unique design and operating characteristics, as well as the inherent hazards of underwater operation, an uninspected submersible may be permitted in U.S. passenger operations only if it is designed and constructed to a recognized industry standard." which you pointed out. There is no current recognized industry standard for carbon fiber submersible construction. IANAL
i wonder why they don't want to open that lovely can of worms?
@@megenberg8 that being said, you could spend the time and money to do extensive prototype testing and *create* the standard. There are procedures for certifying novel designs. That obviously didn't happen here.
@@riverdolfi2846 Are hang gliders certified by the FAA?
So, exactly how many submersibles does the US Coast Guard or NTSB own or operate? When you need information on these things, you are going to have to go to people that operate these things (like navies, oilfield, research entities). One of the first things you will learn is that the crews must be highly trained, constantly drilled on emergencies (not just classroom), and going to sea with a knowledge of just how dangerous sub duty is and how quickly something can go bad with tragic results. The main thing I see that went wrong here is thinking submarine operations are spectator sports.
i just don't think i can comprehend the all-out insanity. holy-moly!!
My view is many of the spectators know little or nothing about their household appliances let alone the operation of a deep diving submersible.
Just wanted to thank you for keeping us informed. I found your channel through the Evergreen ship in the Suez and you always deliver the goods
Edit: I also just want to say I love the little fake trees. It's a vibe lol😂
Titan would need certification only if used in territorial waters, which it was not. It is not considered a ship and no registry for it is required. In international waters they can use it at their own risk. Thing is, lacking CG certification and registry, the CG is not responsible for rescue. OceansGate should be billed for the effort.
A big YES to you my friend. You get it. All these comments about safety 🛟🦺 are basing there comments on vessels that are Registered. International water is the modern day wild west, as one expert in the field said.
I thought the general rule of the sea is that one vessel should come to the aid of another crew that is in distress. Do you wave off a life boat saying, "We'll only pick you up if you can pay?" Of course that's what medical doctors do all the time.
The USCG responds to all emergencies and never charges anybody. That is the US policy.
*Some are a being a bit too lawyerly or fretting too much about the tax monies involved to understand what's important about accident investigations, aviation, marine or whatever.* These accident need to be investigated because, whatever the legalities, it is important to learn from them to prevent future accidents. The better an accident is investigated, the better the understanding about how a similar accident can be prevented in the future. The fact that the _Titanic_ was a British-flagged and British-built vessel in international waters (the same waters involved in this accident), doesn't mean the USCG and the Canadian Coast Guard didn't have an role to play in that investigation. Safety is everyone's responsibility. And in the case of the USCG, the investigation is important to determine how the submersible, built in the US., slipped through the cracks and never got certified. If the time isn't taken to learn from mistakes, those mistakes will be repeated.
I'm interested in improving the technology, and would have hoped for a safe dive. Even with all the bureaucratic red tape accidents still happen. This entire channel is mostly about marine disasters of one sort or another. Most recently several tank cars fell into the Yellowstone River due to a collapsed bridge. Presumably at some point the bridge was certified.
What a great channel. Glad i stumbled upon it! Thank you good Sir
100K!!! Congratulations Sal!!!!
there is a photo of the inside of the fuselage, they screwed monitor mounts to the pressure hull. The DSV Alvin has no such mountings, a frame is inside the sphere and everything is bolted to that.
It's been reported that there was an inner lining into which the screws were placed and cables/tubes ran between the lining and the hull.
Titan was constructed in the United States the regulations required for it to be certified by the USCG even though it operated in international waters. One person spoke about looking to use Titan for a TV documentary. He was taken on a test five in Puget Sound, which is in US waters, making it subject to USCG jurisdiction.
Looking at the design of this vessel as an engineer it is screaming imminent failure. I watched how the carbon fibre hull was wound, in a single direction. The designers have looked at the way carbon fibre is normally used in cylinders but missed two things. The multiple layers are wound forming diamond patterns as well as straight but more importantly the loading is tensile when holding pressure in. The submersible has to keep the pressure out this is a compressive loading, the exact opposite of the cylinder.
The CEO was very resistant to inspection of the hull. They got rid of an employee who called for NDE and NDT of it. Claiming that the real time acoustic monitor would give plenty of warning. This shows a lack of understanding of the material. There may be some none structural delamination in aircraft wings or components but if the entire thickness of the hull was required to maintain integrity, the first problem would show itself as catastrophic failure and implosion.
Winding the carbon fiber like a small spool of thread doesn't provide much structure if any. Basically the tube was epoxy filled with carbon fiber. My feeling is most engineering is actually based on practical experience over time. I see this as a learning experience more than anything else. The loss of life, while tragic is rather insignificant. It's probably one of the least likely causes of death.
Hello, I’m new to your channel and enjoy your knowledge and content. I’m in commercial aviation and we fall under many FAR’s. I to am curious if the Titan was certified in any way.
Unrelated and purely speculative on my part but I find myself having questions about the decision to join the fwd and aft bulkheads with whatever compound they used. I don’t have a great deal of knowledge about how pressure effects composites under water but we use them in aviation all the time. I was over thinking the fwd hatch closing design quite a bit. So being a mechanic and knowing what I know about nuts, bolts, torque, and pressure I can think of a few times in my life where I had something tightened but if you apply pressure to whatever it is your tightening the force of the nut is reduced.
Here’s what I mean. They secured the hatch at ground atmospheric pressure and from what I could see from the limited information from videos I’ve seen they run nuts down and torque them. Fine. However, in my mind (right or wrong) I would assume that the more pressure applied to the hatch against the bulkhead the more gap you will have between the nut and matting surface. Am I wrong in thinking in this way? How can what you torque at sea level pressure remain the same at 6,000-8,000 psi or whatever they were subjected to?
So, here’s a side note story that almost cost one of my friends lives. We have. Newer 757 in for a HMV check and about a week prior to delivery one of the guys had a task card to pressurize the potable water system. He was new to aviation and just obtained his A&P and very cocky. He used a high pressure regulator from the 3,000 psi nitrogen tank instead of the low pressure regulator he should have been using. The tanks are spun carbon fiber. He had a guy hugging the tank in the aft pit listening for leaks. I was in the aft galley area at the same time with a inspector. Luckily at the same moment in time the mechanic in the pit and the inspector and myself decided to leave the aircraft and continue with the night. I made it behind the #2 engine and the same time the mechanic exited the aft pit when I turned and thought a aircraft had slammed into the hangar door.
It split that potable water tank like a biscuit can opens. Just like it. Completely destroyed everything in the aft pit. The water fill line came THROUGH the floor boards, intercostals, Mylar, and moon mat. Destroying a frame along the way. It would have killed him and god knows what to me as I was standing directly above that area.
Pressure is a destructive force when let loose. The fact United stated that they haven’t heard of that happening before scared me.
Interesting story about a tank that was in all likelihood certified.
I've learned so much from you and subrief on submarines thank you
“The inspection would check for any damage to the inside of the hull” (such as monitors and light fittings screwed directly into the carbon fibre)
There's screw hole in your drywall causing structural damage to your house. Whatever caused the hull failure most likely was'nt easily noticed. It wasn't any of the things most people are complaining about such as the game controller or used pipe ballast.
@@JoeLinux2000 could have been the viewing port, the joins of the ends with the body, but most likely failure d/t use of carbon fiber hull in environment of great compression. Its tensile strength is much better than its compression strength, and it has a history of sudden fracturing into pieces when it fails. We may never know, implosion is incredibly destructive in force.
There was a liner inside the composite hull that was strictly cosmetic/mounting surface/wearing surface.
Great explanation! I’m here because Sub Brief sent me.
Good, as i said this was not going to end well...even if those guys had been found and rescued we would still have this mess.
I have no expertise in this matter but having followed the whole thing for the last week it sounds like their was or is no “governing body” for deep sea exploration that would have the authority to stop them from doing what they did. It sounds like experts and members from the deep sea community had all expressed their concerns before hand and been ignored. But it sounds like nobody had any authority to actually stop the sailing of the submersible.
That’s my interpretation as well and it is also my suspicion that operating outside of jurisdictions was on purpose.
@@allthatsheiz it does look that way.
@@allthatsheiz "operating outside of jurisdictions was on purpose" You're saying that the Titanic was sunk in that location deliberately?
Yep. If they were concerned enough to write that letter, the only reason I can see for not taking the matter further is because there was no way to do so. Rush did a hell of a lot of legal wriggling to make sure no authorities could get in the way of his project. Besides, how do you warn the public directly when the business owner has a fragile ego and more than enough money to sue anyone who 'personally insults' him by having concerns?
@@Graham_Widemanno he’s saying the sub purposely side stepped safety regulations
I can understand why Cameron et. al. didn't go public about it - they did warn Stockton directly, allowing him to make the right decision, but also didn't want to overstep. Could have been a lengthy mud slinging contest, or even legal issue if they publicly stated that the sub was unsafe. Could they have done more? Probably - but it's ultimately not their responsibility.
You predicted this enquiry. Good job!
Thanks for all of the info. New to channel and glad I found it, been super interested in this investigation. Still so much to learn about this tragedy
Firstly I will never trust load bering carbon fibre. I know many who had accidents when their socalled strong brand named bicycle failed a few of which involved major injury such as coring a leg muscle on anew triathlon bike only ridden by a 117lb female!
Second the sub:
What was the carbon fibre wound on?
Did it have any destructive testing?
Did it have any non-destructive testing like Xrays, sound, physical damage like bubbles that could show delamination?
Was it used beyond its tested or designed depth? Maybe the window was tested to 1300m, the bell was tested to 3800m!
Were the seals tested?
I do have a west system resin coated CF sock over PML resin impregnated Kraft tubing on a 38mm minimum diameter rocket that I flew on a CTI J motor to well over 10,000 feet in 1.8s, the nosecone popped at apogee at 4s but the chute did not deploy it screamed to the ground at CFB Gagetown in a few seconds and hit rock, it lost an inch of forward airframe.
I have sheared surface CF on subsequent launches. CF sock is a full length piece of CF material in a tubular form.
Great show Sal. Exactly what I been saying the mother ship was certified by the Coast Guard why wasn't the sub. At least for basic equipment radio and beacon. Especially anything for hire leaving any US or Canadian ports. Experimental aircrafts to drones are regulated by the FAA. The Coast Guard dropped the ball...
They were in international waters outside Canadian or US jurisdiction. The mother ship was registered in Canada. Stop blaming CG for the stupidity of one man. The mother ship set sail from Canada but was not put in operation until it hit international water.
@@Galworld761 Don't care, Rush knew this shell game and look what happened.
Well done research sir! Thank you! You got a new follower today, I’m happy to of found your channel
Thanks and welcome
Thanks for the great insight, Sal! This new video was so enlightening!
As always great work. Thanks.
One other question comes up in my mind about the Coast Guard doing any certification or inspection is did this vehicle somehow slipped through the cracks was allowed to continue operating with a wink and a nod was there some special experimental grouping that it operated under so it didn't have to be certified or inspected which doesn't make sense considering that paying passengers
I think when this is all said and done there needs to be an investigation of the Coast Guard to see why they drop the ball on their end and if they simply did not know of the existence of the submersible inside the United States I'd say they were sloppy if they didn't get to it I'd say they were negligent and derelict in their Duty
There is a copy of the Waiver floating around on the internet. I know it says that the Sub is not Certified. I am pretty sure it describes it as an experimental vessel not inspected or certified by any Coast Guard or Governing Body. That alone might work to the families favor legally.
I like your points. I would also add that the US and Canadian Coast Guards performed an extensive SAR operation at significant cost. I think this might be where the US Coast has a vested interest in the safety of this operation. There is also the possibility this was a rouge vessel, not sure???
Yes they searched a very wide area when it was 1/4 mile form the bow of the Titanic all the time.
I think the finger pointing and ass covering is going to be a long drawn out process. I would also like to be a fly on the wall at dinner when you and your Mrs. discuss the finer details of a legal wording in the law. Our family dinner table is when we have discussions on all sorts of topics like this so I assume yours is no different lol.
I can't wait for you to find out about which insurance company covered this dive. Dollars to donuts, I bet they skipped the insurance too. Mercy! Hope I'm wrong.
Sal, Is this like a personaly built plane that crashes. Love SAL ❤️
You are not allowed to carry passengers in a homebuilt plane until it has passed the testing period.
James Cameron let people know. He figured they would have investigated it further. James Cameron isn’t in a position to stop them. He his absolutely right in my opinion
The Titan was registered to the Bahamas as OceanGate Expeditions. The OceanGate separate entity office was Washington State.
My question in all of this, how was this company allowed to operate period? The abhorrent “safety” culture, the red flags all over the place this was an unsafe company building submersible death traps for $250K.
Even if the crafts they were working on were “experimental”, it’s still should’ve been classified as a submersible period, and if it was rejected for classification and certification there should’ve been a meeting with Ocean Gate to determine what they’re working on, and that without any kind of certification on the Titan or other submersible craft they wouldn’t be allowed to operate in US waters.
Of course they operated in international waters to avoid US Coast Guard jurisdiction and US Law, but in terms of the US laws and regulations I find it incredible they completely avoided the rules and regulations and governing bodies. So I’m curious to know if they actually should’ve been flagged sooner by governing bodies and had their operating licenses pulled.
Considering former employees are coming out and speaking about the unsafe work culture at the company and the botched engineering going on, I can’t believe this company and Stockton Rush completely avoided being looked over.
So I’m very curious to see what comes out of this investigation, and I’m sure Ocean Gate is gonna be completely leveled by this as they should be.
Oh my God? How can we cross the street?
Do you get as upset when drugs are put on the market that kill millions of people, or with Chrysler for the fires of their SUV? Or when airlines overlook safety issues killing millions?
We live within an imperfect world. One needs to adjust their anger appropriately not focus just on 1, when there are many others doing worse and still operating!
Why I read in news outlet, there are many dentist they said that are habitual alcoholics . And have a license still.
Thank you, I really appreciate your clear and concise explanations.
Very well done! Thank you. Rush did everything possible to avoid the law, certification, blocked out all calls of extreme danger, hunted his prey to become clients for his tourism business. went out of his way to sell the trip and once in a life time experience, yet didnt care who he might kill ! this seems to me a very morbid individual, a very cold hearted man. He didn't care about anyone but himself. that is very obvious! and he did kill a total of five people. even after being told cracking of sub in deep water was indication of something loose! And when sub went deeper it cracked even more loudly! every indication of something giving away, bending, along with being told by the experts those cracks are indication of extreme pressure cause material to move. People like this are extreme con artist and very dangerous as we see.
He wasn't a con artist, he was arrogant, and he apparently believed in the Titan despite all the issues. He was on Titan when it imploded.
Oh wow, I've missed this, when did cracking get heard? Huge red flag.
What's your source for the previous cracking sounds? First I've heard of such.
but the man himself was definitely certified, don't you know? and completely so. bank on it.
@@nightw4tchman There was a media story, early on in this saga, where Rush was quoted at a GeekWire conference in Seattle. Rush said he took a carbon-fiber prototype down to 4,000 meters, and it "made a lot of troubling noises" both times. He added that Oceangate scrapped that hull and built another one using an aerospace supplier. The noises were allegedly picked up by his acoustic monitoring system of the hull. This would have been back in 2018, I think. Where the "cracking" statement came from might be Lochridge, the employee who was fired after he objected to the accoustic monitoring as an unsafe way to detect failure (comes way late in the hull failure process, too late for safely getting to the surface). Or the cracking noise story might have come from an engineer (Karl Larsen?) who was on an early test dive, and advised Rush in an email that the sub hull needed a redo.The story about the sub is murky, too. Apparently there was a prototype Cyclops 1, then Cyclops 2 (redone hull), which was actually Titan after it was renamed right before starting with the "Mission Specialist" phase.
I'm a USCG marine inspector and love the channel. This statement does not represent the opinion of the entire Coast Guard, just my personal observations.
I'm surprised by your confusion here. 46 CFR 4.40-5 includes one possible definition of a major marine casualty as a "Serious threat, as determined by the Commandant and concurred in by the Chairman, to life, property, or the environment by hazardous materials." Whether it is a major or not is determined during the preliminary investigation, as described in 46 CFR 4.40-10. And then if it is determined to be a major, the USCG and NTSB will usually work together on the investigation as described in 46 CFR 4.40-15(b)(3). Just because USCG is investigating does not mean the USCG is saying it is a vessel they are responsible for, or that it is a U.S. certificated vessel. In fact the USCG just opened up an investigation on a series of Arctic passenger vessel casualties, one of which was not U.S. registered, did not operate out of the U.S., occured outside U.S. waters, and no U.S. passengers were onboard. But it was another casualty in a string of related issues, so USCG is investigating to see if a trend can be gleaned from this vessel.
I do agree that this being classified as a major is a huge deal. It may mean that USCG is seeing this regulatory loophole, and trying to figure out a way to close it. Or perhaps they are interested in the feasibility of carbon fiber hulls. Or maybe they see the need to update the 30 year old submersible inspection guidance, and this investigation can assist with that. I am not really sure what the admirals and captains are thinking, but this being a major is a huge deal.
There is a video of OceanGate adding the ring dome on the front of the sub ..its described in the vid as some kind of epoxy , glue thats like peanut butter , engineers were adding it ..its mind boggling
Sal, I absolutely love your deep dives!
Best post yet. Has Zelensky asked the US for some of these submersibles? Ukraine surely needs a few.
Sal we sailors knew when the communication was gone the vessel imploded because of the pressure of that depth including the engineering of such a vessel because education that everyone should be taught to perform themself and retain a marine attorney to advice if the trip was safe but "common sense isn't common" my dad's favorite sentence.
Er, what?
I'm an experienced small boat sailor, and didn't know exactly what had gone wrong. A leak seems more likely.
A sad situation all the way around.
While discussing barge, also consider that Transport Canada and US DOT has Barge Supervisor requirements and ticket as well..
This could change many aspects of ocean exploration and 'leisure craft' and will take years to play out - in courts... "and versus or" notwithstanding.
You're looking good Dr. Sal!! I hope Campbell University gave you that nice sweater... after all the interviews you're giving - THEY do well with you being such a quotable authority (wearing their colors)!!
I'm only going in certified row boats from now on.
This is the first time that I have seen someone calling out James Cameron for not calling out OceanGate over safety concerns BEFORE the Titan disaster. Even though it's not Cameron's company or competitor, he seems like one of the most knowledgeable people on the issue of deep sea submersibles? Well done 👍🏻
He is but keep in mind he’s still a screen writer and was probably working on getting Avatar the way of the water and other movies produced when this was being built he can’t be everywhere at once, it’s also entirely possible he thought they knew something he didn’t.
I could have told someone it was dangerous without knowing anything at all of the specifics.
James Cameron didn’t let them go down. That was a weird way to say you don’t like his take
Bravo Dr Sal. High time someone calls this catastrophe as it actually is!
Honestly, Dr Sal highlights some very serious holes here, particularly as far as classification, certification and everything in between goes.
I completely agree that this entire fiasco that was Titan, has been lost so thoroughly in translation here.
The safety of life has been totally lost in between legalities and common sense. The other issue here is that if you have enough money, you can do whatever you please regardless of lives at stake. I am flabbergasted that this submersible literally flew through every crack ever set up to regulate sea faring around the world. No one was overlooking this crazy project, no one checked and certified it’s sea worthiness, no one did a thing. I hope people involved in policy formulation watch this channel as a matter of daily routine.
possession is a distinct possibility as the man appeared to have been totally diabolical. 💯☣☢⚠🚧👀💣🕳🥺
Wow Sal I just got done reading your New York Times Op Ed ........Great Job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you Bill!
12:00 To answer your question why lawyers do not give a straight answer is... it the courts that do that/to rule on it and make it fact etc. Add to this the document is not a filing or court document and they could get into trouble with the bar if they push this too far as well.
My read of that regulation is, even with the "or", ANY US built vessel is certified by the USCG (no matter where it is operated). ANY vessel operating in US water is certified by USCG.
As Titan was built in the US, it doesn't matter where it was being used, it should have been certified by the USCG. If it was made elsewhere and operated in international waters, then its not certified by the USCG
The "ship" Titan didn't have any onboard navigation therefore it was never sure of its operational jurisdiction.
'jurisdiction' is a strong word, and to be fair as you point out, they can investigate all they want, yet as far as jurisdiction is concerned, I didn't see anything saying all others (Canada, GB, etc) must differ to the USCG/NTSB on this investigation, just that the USCG/NTSB is opening an investigation. as far as US owned, where is the address, the P.O. box for OceanGate, Everett Washington USA, that may be enough to kick this off as far as USA alphabet soup is concerned.
Correct. He would do himself and his viewers a favor to reign in the hyperbole in which he routinely engages. The Coast Guard's own announcement of the investigation explicitly states that it will be working with other national and international authorities.
Where was the 20 foot "ship" registered?
@@Objectified Have they inlisted the help of teams of deep diving squid?
James Cameron said he wished he’d spoken up. Also how did Stockton Rich not know that carbon fiber is only strong in tensile loads and worthless under compression? This is day one shit of strengths of materials 101. Also he bought the carbon fiber material at a considerable discount from Boeing because it had passed its shelf life. This guy knew he was buying subpar materials and refused to certify it. sounds like recklessness to me.
Never use out of date carbon fiber in a mission critical application.
I really appreciate that you cover the Titan Accident from this specific angle.
I also like your opinion of James Cameron's statement.
If so many people were truly concerned and were so sure and positive how dangerous all these missions were - why didn't they express their doubts/concerns more often or tried to reach an authority...?
I know that it wasn't there responsibility, but it leaves a strange, bitter aftertaste that people like him and especially journalists - who were once so enthusiastically reporting and writing about the Titan or Oceangate as a whole (and seemingly ignoring the Lawsuit against Lochridge or the Letter by the MTS) now act as if they all knew what would happen and as if they haven't pushed Oceangate to more popularity...
Of course, it's nothing new and it hasn't happened for the first time - and it probably won't be for the last time, but it makes me feel uncomfortable ... A lot of people are getting quite the publicity by voicing an opinion they all seemed to have had for a long time and that they could've voiced a lot sooner - which might have changed the course of recent history. But as usual, especially concerning safety regards, we have to learn from accidents like these and I'm sure that a lof of things are going to change, so that hopefully something like this will never happen again.
i think its very important to note that the CEO was not only an engineer himself, but was insistent that his submersible had been tested and designed with engineers from places like Boeing and NASA. for example, i saw this when it was first designed, and as an engineer, was worried. but the lead engineer insisted their design was solid and that highly admirable engineers were a part in it. i never thought that an engineer, certainly not one who is venturing the ocean, would depend on a system as fragile as we now know it to be. i.e, no damage assessments on the pressure vessel, WIRELESS controller, no emergency beacon?? no machine to dive down along side them if they need? its things that engineers cant even comprehend as not being there because they are simple, basic laws of engineering. i think media will always be gross and paint a narrative, but i do believe those who had concerns before were genuine, and that the CEO mislead or discouraged them into speaking up about it. he truly believed so much in his design that he was blind to hundreds of possible errors. i feel sad he never got to realize he was wrong, and even more that 4 others were affected by his unethical decisions in the end
A question that I would have is did some of these folks reach out to the Coast Guard over the years and basically get blown off either because the Coast Guard didn't want to spend money investigating this "dinky" little submersible when it has all sorts of other budgetary struggles, or did Stockton Rush get political cover in place, so if the Coast Guard did start to ask questions, some in Congress started to ask questions about why the Coast Guard needed items in their budget or quietly held up or threatened to hold up some promotions within the Coast Guard that require Congressional approval. Also, was the Coast Guard wishy-washy about whether they had jurisdiction over this vessel and simply did not want to waste a lot of time and effort only to have the courts tell them they are wasting their time. This was a billionaires' toy and they usually don't like being told by governments what they can and can't do and have the money and lawyers to buy the necessary people to see that their fun isn't spoiled.
Perhaps because of fear of legal actions because Oceangate can claim it is slander?
Because, as in the case with at least one man, they received a letter from Oceangate’s attorneys.
@@mmeggnn This! I watched a lot of Interviews with Rush.
Just a few seconds ago I finished watching his GW Summit Power Talk (which you can also find on YT) and to be honest:
Yeah, he seems to have a lot of trust in the Carbon-Fiber design of the Titan - and the acoustic control of the hull...
I'm not sure, if I understood Rush correctly (I'm german and English is not my mother tongue), but he also mentioned in the GW Talk that he tested the material or rather one of his constructions in a chamber at UW with over 6000 PSI (which is approximately the PSI you have near the Titanic, if I recall correctly) - and that he heard the material break and that this was the 'loudest thing' he's ever heard and that it 'shifted the whole building' and even broke the pressure sensors at UW which he had to rebuy...
Of course, in hindsight, I don't know if all of this is true, but still - I notice his confidence - not for the first time - and I mean, yes, you have to be confident in the vessel you're using - or REALLY ignorant! - in order to put yourself repeatedly in there and to dive deep into the ocean ...
After watching and hearing him talk in a lot of videos, I'm positive that it wasn't the ladder, ignorance but confidence which he had in abundance...
I do not only feel sorry for the four passengers he took with him, but also for Rush himself, despite his sense of grandeur.
Re the US requirements and classification discussed at the approx. 8:30 mark. I think it does apply to the titan because it was built in the U.S. and it meets the other general requirements within the scope if this regulation. The reg appears to imply it’s either one or the other. The latter would cover submersibles not built in the U.S. but operating in the U.S. waters.
Appreciate your effort to figure out the governing requirements. The difference between Certification Authority, Technical Authority, and Programmatic Authority, does not seem to be clearly defined based on your research. This is the starting point for any rigorous certification process (just my opinion). Also the proper requirements for vehicle structural integrity is "Pressure Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy" which is an ASME spec. if memory serves. The ABS piping and pressure vessel section would apply only if it covers external pressure modes of failure such as elastic instability. ABS may cover this based on the title but I'm not sure. There are other DSS unique technical aspects such as structural compensation for pressure hull penetrators and viewports.
As an ex-yachtsman (age thing) living in UK, as well as an (ex) scuba diver who got involved in nautical archaeology, I really enjoy your channel. However, in case you weren't aware, in some recent vids, e.g. wreckage of Titan, the sound & vid were completely out of sync. No idea why, but just thought might be worth you knowing. Anyway, keep uo the good work (synced or not!)!
Sal, I seem to recall a short youtube video on the Titan where Stockton Rush was signing some sort of document stating that he was admitting that certain possible safeth problems with the Titan could possibly come up and he was taking some sort of personal responsibility in proceeding with the project even though regulatory authorities would not certify the submersible's safety in proceeding according to Rush's plans. Sorry I can't recall the video but it is out there.
One thing I know is that when you are going to pay big money to go on an obviously dangerous deep dive submersible, you want proper government certification like an "emergency use authorization."
James Cameron was one of 3 dozen who spoke out. How is his responsibility to travk down everyone that Stockton sells seats to? I think they clearly did their due diligence. Its completely on the tourist for putting their lives in Stocktons hands without vetting him. For 250 g's youd think they would look into it. Its more crazy to me that PH didn't know any better. He had quite a bit of submersible experience. I do hope OceanGate is goind liable or responsible to some degree, but I cant kick the feeling that if I go skydiving and willfully overlook that CRAZY waiver and the fact that the company has a very checkered past.
They should have been able to speak out to someone like the Coast Guard or a classification society to report the issue.
the only thing i can see them getting in trouble for is the "test" dives they do close to land in sheltered seas, the video "Titanic Sub Tourism Expedition - Exclusive Footage (My Personal Experience)" by "DALLMYD" shows them doing a test dive, with paying customers, not in international waters
Interesting point, though AFAIK those test dives were not paying passengers. N.B. They do have other submersibles, which are certified.
Agree with you, Sal, and I add this whole can of words by Holland & Knight is an advertisement.
Today, on a news segment with the mother/wife of the Pakastani father and son, she said her son was thrilled to go on the dive and was planning on solving a Rubik's Cube while down there in the hope of setting a world record. Earlier it was reported the son was terrified to go and only did so with reluctance. Both can't be true
Weeeeeellllll yes and no. He may have been terrified and told the aunt. But wanted to please his parents and to manage both feelings came up with something to be excited about
The mother has hundreds of reasons to rewrite history.
like you said days ago .the vessel was not completed and the functional data was not completed so it could not have gone forward from there
Wonderful Sal, although it's a sad story. "I am not a lawyer although I have been married to one for 32 years" almost took me off my chair. You also had some other very fine lines in this post. There are cracks that things fall through. Sometimes by people that "explore". If the explorations do not put you in prison or kill you, I guess "fill your boots" as we say around here. I also like the Campbell U jacket covering your Hawaiian shirt, although they are okay too. Best.
Of course Sal’s going to critique lawyers on TH-cam… he certainly can’t possibly critique the lawyer at home if he wants to stay happily married.
TRUE!
@@robertwazniak9495 It's less about the critique and more that he'll never win the argument.
@LantanaLiz… The critique will be what starts the argument. The lawyer is what will continue the argument for years. That’s how they run up chargeable hours. And, Sal will pay, and pay, and pay, and pay. 😂
@@robertwazniak9495 Well, since his wife is the lawyer it's more likely he'll end up in the doghouse. =P
It all circles back to Stockton Rush. He had intent to circumvent any regulation. "Pride goeth before the fall ".
Sal as I said before the issue this side of canada is ship left st-John's harbour with this sub. Lots people mad because why they charge money when edmond fitz is out bound for visit and bid thing maritime lawyer around globe focus on canada.thank for time on media and video.
Off topic, general question: How are electical connections made through the pressure vessel to equipment outside, such as electric thrusters, on a deep submersible vehicle used at depths like the Titanic wreck?
Good question. In this case I think the wireless controller allows it to operate through the hull. In general it is possible to (carefully) seal connections with o-rings.
I don’t see based on this video how the USCG has any authority here. It’s not a US flagged vessel and its not been inspected or classified by anyone. It’s clear Ocean Gate was operating in a totally unregulated manner. It also doesn’t seem to fit the requirements for a major investigation.
If anyone has the right to investigate it’s either Canada from when the mother ship departed and was registered or the Bahamas where the sub was reportedly registered.
Great synopsys! Keep asking. Hey, I love the ships clock! Special???
I discovered your very informative channel while reading coverage in regards the unfortunate loss of the Titan and its crew. It appears there was many concerns with operation of the Ocean Gate Titan, where as it appears Ocean Gate played with the "rules" with their other vessels. It is unfortunate that the late Mr. Rush decided to "break" the rules with the Titan project and wasn't not rained in by the submersible community/government body before this event occurred.
Sadly, Ocean Gate and Mr. Rush will be judged as wreck less after the Titan loss and passing of the adventure seeking "mission specialist's" even after Ocean Gate did conduct some very safe dives with their other vessels.
Hopefully, the investigation will provide closure for the family's and information/ government procedures to prevent another tragedy of this nature.
If there is not an agency to file complaints or conc3ns with to do so could potentially incurr significant liability
I am familiar with dealing with a can of worms, but not so sure about a 55 gallon drum of them. This is your most entertaining video yet, making popcorn as we speak.
I believe that at this point the NTSB/USCG/Canada are most interested in developing mechanisms to prevent any further dives to the Titanic or other sites of interest where vessels either flagged or departing from US/Canada ports. They will attempt to either bury 'tourists' in regulations and inspection regimes and/or insurance requirements.
IMO, all they need to do is enforce law and regulation on the books for the last 30 years.
Something on the vessel could no longer withstand the oressure
I'm curious what role Holland & Knight play in relationship to the Titan submersible. Are they just issuing a paper of general knowledge or are they somehow involved in the insurance of the submersible?
I think the points you made regarding the Coast Guard and an investigation come down to the fact that the submersible was manufactured in the United States and if it left United States never to return to the country or its Waters then to Coast Guard would be hands off of an investigation. But, since it was homeported in Everett Washington as well as initially manufactured in the United States I feel that that gives the Coast Guard enough authority to do investigation and the impudence, if relevant enough to their mission, to require them to do the investigation. Obviously if they undertake this they would then have the ability to request additional aid from organizations such as the NTSB, as well as any organizations or assets from Canada.
Just my interpretation...
@tapalmer99 I read Titan was registered home is Bahamas, under OceanGate Expeditions, a separate entity is OceanGate ,Inc registered in Everett, Wa.
I think they also had a foundation at one time.
My time with passenger vessels has lead me to think the point a lot of people are missing, is that the experimental nature of Titan (e.g the game controller, the camping world lights, or the composite hull) is not the main issue here. That is all well fine and dandy, but the moment you introduce paying passengers, is where all the legal trouble starts with not having the vessel properly certified. I have a 22’ boat, and I take my friends out. They go out for free and there’s no illegal issues. However, if I start charging a fee, that vessel needs to be certified and classified as a passenger vessel and fall under USCG rules and regulations. When you take a trip on any passenger vessel in the US, that ticket is actually a legally binding contract stating that in exchange for your money, the operator of the vessel is required to provide you a safe voyage to your destination. Of which, Ocean Gate did not provide a safe voyage and was not classified to do so, which therein lies the problem with the whole situation. The only guy on that trip who knew the extent of its capabilities was Stockton, and I highly doubt his full knowledge was shared with the 3 paying passengers. I could be wrong about some of that, however that’s my interpretation of the laws surrounding passenger vessels.
Allegedly it was registered as a non-profit, and they were called researchers, not passengers. That may not pass legal muster.
@@gordonrichardson2972 oh I wouldn’t doubt that they had some way figured out to call it a passenger vessel without calling it a passenger vessel. If I know that information above, they certainly do too. How does all that hold up in court, will remain to be seen in the next coming months.
@MLGVorkScoper perhaps you overlooked these were research missions with mission specialist of a research interest in history, the monies were contributions used for research. Now, maybe some of those dollars were used to chip in for the cost expense to obtain mother ship in order to carry out research expedition.
I read where his future goal was to get his own ROV in his vessel to transmit in real time the ocean floor with Titanic into classrooms for educational learning. A functioning brain, indeed, the concept, this idea, truly amazing!
He probably could have done so much more. Loss of a brilliant mind. He led no one on, but there are many haters out there. And, they know who they are!
@@maryannsinopoli1751 again, these people paid for a safe dive, that’s the job of the operator of the vessel. Research or not, that’s your job as a vessel owner and operator, to provide a safe voyage and evidently that was not done. I’m not saying he lead anyone on, but due diligence to determine vessel structural integrity, especially based on the experimental design, was not done. Plain and simple.
@@MLGVorkScoper plain and simple, that which you brief he acknowledged in waiver.
Eerily similar to the space shuttle Challenger. The Morton Thiokol engineer who warned NASA about the O rings on the solid rocket boosters not being viable after being subjected to freezing temperatures. NASA decided to take a chance as they had dodged the bullet on previous flights.
Just read an article somewhere, they compared this to Challenger also. Why a space craft, why not other submersibles? Huh….
The Challenger similarity. is covered on 'just alex' TH-cam site (there are 2, one is a deep sea risk/safety expert). There was a vast discrepancy between what the O-ring developers estimated on it's failure risk at low temps, and what some engineers estimated (just 1 in 100). Sadly, the engineers turned out to be right.
Surely as titan was operating from a Canadian ship, and directed from this Canadian ship, it is a tender to that Canadian ship and the responsibility of that Canadian ship?
If this submersible vessel is classed, it could have been due for an intermediate survey before it did this catastrophic dive. An MPI/NDT of its hull could have been done which could have saved the lives of its passengers.
wow! thanks for the info. you seem more legit than most
It’s my understanding that Lochridge did contact the Coast Guard, but they didn’t respond.
NTSB regarding the East Palestine, Ohio train toxic bomb that the chemical company told North Fork Railroad the cars were NOT in danger of explosion per the temperature of the outside as only at half from the 330 that the cars never reached 190. Railroad refused to allow the chemical company to speak with the workers at the derailment. The railroad wanted the tracks cleared ASAP to not lose money for safer procedure for clearing the derailment. Listen to the two days of NTSB on C SPAN.