Thanks everyone for the great response to this video! After we published we noticed a small calculation error on the fluid weight in kg. Rather then remove the video to repair the error, we chose to pin this comment to preserve the 1100+ plus comments of dialogue. Both the Model Y weight and Mach-E weight were equally penalized with higher totals, but the relative delta remained consistent. We will have Sandy clarify in a future Mach-E video. Thanks everyone! - Munro Live Team
This is why I love you Munro's, For your Honesty! You seen you've made an error, you take responsibility for it, then take the best decision to correct it and move on. Keep doing your best, because your best is good enough. HUGS!
Do you folks also take into account the (I reckon, of course you do) weight of the fluids throughout the vehicle someplace? Please highlight that aspect in a video too some day, fluids seem to be one of the easier places to reduce weight. I know from the motorcycling world that the fluid weights are significant, many manufacturers there report the weight without the essential fluids!
Hello sandy i love your show. Can you give a comment to the poor guy who broke this connector on his tesla. They wanted to sell him a new battery pack. Thanks!
yes and no, cause an engineer in the big companies has to use parts of the shelves and is trained to use them instead of reinventing the wheel. Yes, it would be beneficial for each of them to check how Tesla had done it before starting to work on the next iteration of the id family which will also be used by Ford for small cars and next Mustang iteration. But where would Tesla be if Ford and VW would no longer make these mistakes again and again ? Tesla is unable to deal with corporate customers at least here and a company does not care about all the great tesla cars as long they can not deliver that to the customer where the employees then will have to work to get their tesla get fixed cause Tesla does not care nor has an infrastructure to do that. That is where Ford and VW outperform Tesla , same for leasing offers and other services, at least here in central europe, not Siberia. Might be time for you to pick up and call Mr. Diess from VW to talk about the future since he now has gotten his new contract he had to fight for the last 12 to 24 months. Might be worth to jump onto his feet now before the next ID family generation development starts ...
@@m.h.9244Only one I could find was this: teslaownersonline.com/threads/broken-charge-port-pin-left-me-dead-in-the-water.16520/ He fixed it himself. The connector has since been redesigned to prevent this issue. If you have another case, please share. Otherwise, it looks like you're spreading FUD.
All those future leak points down the road too. With Tesla you have 10 hoses so 20 hose connections that might leak at some point, with Ford you have 35 hoses or 70 possible leak points. Not including pumps and other components and its all stretched out over the engine bay instead of in one location.
Problem is, they can't. JIT is a big thing for Ford dealerships, and sometimes the part you need now is on back-order for who knows how long, even for brand-new vehicles. Ford should outsource their parts inventory to Amazon.
But at least they've got two independent loops so not everything gets fried at once. The two pumps required because the pathways are so long reminds me of the story that big lumbering dinosaurs had two brains because the neurons were so long. I'm sure there's a metaphor there somewhere.
"You have a coolant leak - we need to take the engine out" "Engine???" "Yeah - we pop a small one in between all the hoses, just in case the electrics don't work."
@@Error6503 Nothing to fry on a EV car if you happen to have a coolant leak. The temperature ranges that EV cars (Ford, Tesla, Porsche, Audi, ect) cooling loops are exposed to is no where near boiling point. More in the upper 80's at the most. Therefore if the systems detect a leak, they simply lower the battery discharge rates and allow you to get home. You can safely open any EV coolant circuit and you aren't ever going to get boiling coolant sprayed in the face.
Just by watching these videos OEMs could save years of development, they don't seem to be watching though. When they can't even match technology used in cars that have been on the road for 8+ years...it says a lot.
Yeah, I'm happy more and more engineering channels are using SI units, when it comes to calculations and conversions they are just easier to deal with!
@@MunroLive Keep up the good work! Been watching since '18 when Sandy first ripped into the Model 3. Constructive criticism is great, which leads to better things for people. In a small way, I bought the i3 and Model Y sample reports last year as a way to show support. :) Also, a random tidbit is with the Mach-E here in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Ford dealerships won't let you test drive the car.
It's like the Ford engineers forgot about the cooling system after the rest of the car was built, and had to quickly cobble together something that looks like a home hobby job.
In my experience as a tier 1 or 2 with the OEM'S YES line routing etc is not considered early enough in the process. Not just lines. The functional areas of the vehicles are sent to different design departments for design and integration. And some have more say or power in decision making. So if a cooling system eng says hey we need to change something to be better it may be considered too late, the more powerful team won’t change or maybe won't be allow to change due to launch issues. Why OEM's are so focused on meeting launch vs making a better product is a fault in the system.
Thank you for showing side by side comparison. Numbers are great, but showing things physically side by side really put things into perspective a lot more easily.
I particularly enjoyed the motor videos because you almost always have two or three different ones for comparison. It'll be really interesting when you get a 4680 Tesla battery pack and can put it side-by-side with one of the older ones.
Bob Lutz: "The OEM's are going to blow them out of the water because of their 100 years of know how." I'm paraphrasing of course, but he did same something to that effect.
I was about to say. 😉 But *Bad Obsession Motorsports* actually has better design skills and tighter tolerances. Even *Project Binky* was put together better. The *Mach-E* is an absolute mess of redundant and superfluous parts meandering all over the place. This couldn't get past a software design phase review, never mind approval for implementation.
Oh man I was thinking the same thing, except if they're watching this they're sicking up in their shed at the poor execution. Binky is a marvel of CAD engineering the Mach-E is engineering by parts bin committee!
Nice to see you here @mikeselectricstuff - it would be awesome to see a collaboration video with Sandy Munro and you !! Anyway, hope to see some new tear-down videos from you Mike as well !
@@martinbeaudoin666 Question is why they need to please the dealers. What are they going to do? If they drop their agreement with Ford, they would do Ford a favor in the long run. Ford would be able to sell direct to the customers like Tesla. As long as they have a dealer network, they can't do that. Ford does benefit from the maintenance because they can sell parts to the dealers and other mechanics.
I don't really get this. From a production viewpoint , sure, there is cost involved. But as a consumer I'm not that worried. I have a fairly largeish boat. Got way more hoses and clamps than that. 14 of them connected to through wholes that could sink the boat if they fail. Inspected once every year and changed every ten. I sleep soundly. As long as ford uses quality parts this is more of a problem for Ford (and sandy does well to point that out) than the consumer. That said, if I was a ford executive I wold get Sandy to simplify this.
35 hoses = 70 connections. 70 places for a leak and in a previous video Sandy and crew showed how difficult it is to get to many of those hoses and connections. Wow, a repair nightmare down the road for Mach E owners. Better buy the extended warranty.
I can see whole powertrain and suspension removals to fix/find leaks. Wow, what a nightmare. I sure wouldn't want to be owning a Mach-E for very long as I'm sure the stealerships are ready to HOSE customers for the ongoing maintenance costs (maybe purposely engineered like that?)
Mercy is not the point; finding & fixing problems is the point. Munro & co know their stuff, and the critiques are on-point. If Ford can cut their parts count on that coolant system in half, they will save a bundle in costs -- and their product will be much better.
That's the problem. "TEAM" I get the impression the Ford system was designed by committee, with members in different buildings. The Tesla? Two (talented) designers 10 feet apart.
@@DanielBlaney True enough. At least at one point. It's all still a work in progress, for all automakers. I marvel at the brilliance of Tesla engineering (no word less than brilliant fits), although due to the quantity over quality philosophy of Elon I'm not sure if I'll ever buy a Tesla.
At battery day Elon said their goal was to become the best manufacturing company in the world. This was my biggest takeaway from "battery day" . I doubled my holdings afterwards.
@@moki123g right, tesla has been absolutely leap frogged by Ford. Tesla was only profitable from selling carbon credits and now that the federal incentive is gone, they are a bubble waiting to collapse
Wow, this is striking. Never mind the software (OTA), power train efficiency, BMS, and battery chemistry advantages Tesla holds as well. The industry needs to step up or a major rout is coming.
@@peterzerfass4609 I think this video shows the difference between a company where the leader is an engineer and values good engineering like Musk at Tesla and the legacy automakers where the leader is a business school type who only values the company’s share price.
@@peterzerfass4609 I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I've heard countless calls to sell TSLA because of insert Tesla killer here. My modest investment over 8 years ago has grown insanely. Tesla's margins are also insane and this video demonstrates why.
The competition is coming - in their pants when seeing what tesla is doing. Ford seemingly does this to keep dealerships well-stocked and well-employed
This is a very good example of the good old "too many chefs in the kitchen" phrase. Too much reliance on off the shelf components, too much old school thinking "just slap it on there" without much regard to weight and function. Hopefully this is a wakeup call to the car industry, that the golden era of wasteful and afterthought design is dead.
OK, my one genie wish is to have Sandy do a teardown comparison of the SpaceX Dragon and Boeing Starliner capsules. Even from what we know already there's a vast difference between SpaceX's approach and the legacy aerospace company's use what we know approach along with compartmented engineers.
Meanwhile as this video was being watched by Ford/GM/Toyota/VW engineers...down in the Telsa Bat Cave a new and improved version is already being built...
VW already have heatpumps for a while in Porsche Taycan. They are much more sophisticated than Tesla's system. You gotta remember Porsche was engineering consultant firm first and automaker second until VW bought them. As a company they have 100 years lead in electric cars over Tesla. 1898 was the year Ferdinand build his first hybrid. Its no brainer Tesla has no chance against porsche/vw as far as who makes better car. The thing is to make a profit on it. that is a different game.
@@hagestad You mean the 'advanced' heatpumps where VW had to go and change the text on the configurator recently (because nextmove in germany actually did a test as to their efficiency and found no effect whatsoever)? The 'advanced' heatpumps where they are now retroactively paying a total of 20 million Euros to buyers of new cars because it was basically false advertising (they seem to have learned nothing from Dieselgate). The 'advanced' heatpump they now reduced drastically in price (it is, of course, a not included extra) They even changed the text on the configurator regarding the heatpump from "up to 30% more range" to "power consumption for heating the cabin at outside temperatures below freezing can be reduced up to 40%". Is that the 'advanced' heatpump you're referring to?
The crazy thing is that this doesn't actually have a hell of a lot to do with the cars being EVs. This this just Tesla designing a better cooling/heating system - ICE makers have been doing this for years! Tesla not only beats them at the EV power train but at this too?
That just shows the Emperor is actually naked. My specialization is elsewhere, but I am an old engineer and this shows serious lack of integration in the industry and lack of creativity. I always thought that an engineer's job is to innovate and keep thinking all the time. Mach-E: "Okay, we need a pump, and we need a valve, so we will also need brackets to fix them to the chassis, and a pipe to connect the two components." Tesla: "Okay, we need a pump, and we need a valve, so how can we put both in the car with as few extra parts as possible?" It's almost as if the decision makers at Ford assumed that the Mach-E won't sell in any significant numbers, so it won't pay to retool for better integrated components
The problem is that legacy builders buy nearly all parts from suppliers, because these are cheaper. This means that the parts don’t integrate. Tesla designs and builds complete units. For legacy firms to go back to building parts themselves is like starting a car firm from scratch. No Legacy experience advantage.
@@rrolf71 “won’t pay to retool” not enough people have hit on this. There are so many decisions that go into bringing a product to market. I think a lot of the contracting/supplier paradigm hurts legacy auto manufacturers for sure. There are plenty of advantages inherent to Tesla’s vertical integration of engineering. That said, just because a company like Ford designed a less efficient cooling system doesn’t mean they are stupid. They may have just chosen not to spend the money in certain areas at this time. Could they have spent more money developing the cooling system and gotten a better result? Probably. Did they need to at this time? Hard to answer, but I don’t think it’s going to make or break the vehicle.
Explains some of the “production hell” when Tesla was rolling out the model 3 - experience pain in the beginning but see the fruits of their labor and effort in efficiency and improved reliability - no pain no gain - Ford went for speed to production - less pain- and tweaks to existing convention.
Someone once said that a product's architecture will mirror the organizational structure of the company that produced it. To restructure Ford, or any of the legacy automakers, so they can effectively compete with Tesla is not only be a formidable task, but will be resisted tooth and nail by every division vice president and department manager.
Sandy after they finish with the Mach-E: "Guys, the reports for Tesla Model 3 and Y are here, you don't need anything else unless you want to study ancient history." ps: Steven from Solving the Money Problem is going to have a field day with this one and I'll be waiting for that.
@@MunroLive are you going to address the sound insulation/NVH performance of the Model 3 & Y. I have a model 3 and love it, because of its handling, speed and looks (yes I like the looks of the Model 3!). However what I do not like is the noise in the cabin when we’re on the highway. Especially when there are more people in the car. In that aspect, the Mach E and especially iD4 perform better, don’t they.
@@mdf1978 I believe the model 3s made after October of 2020 have double paned glass to help with sound insulation. I got my 3 a couple months before that and missed that change sadly, though the cabin noise seems fine on all but the worst roads.
@@mdf1978 The one thing about the Model 3 that isn't a level of magnitude better than any other car is the suspension, imho. Particularly here in the UK where some of our roads are shockingly bad.
It is a little exaggerated for effect -- once assembled, it will take up less space. The underlying point is well made, though -- reduce the part count, especially the number of fasteners, and make the whole thing simpler for the operators to build. You end up with a less costly build, with fewer potential failure points.
The Ford table looks like the contents of our shed…no one dares enter it. This is something the average auto review doesn’t talk about…stylistic/marketing features yes, the engineering bit, no. The three of you make a great presentation team, by the way.
There's a "Ford Fanboy" infiltration. They're quite hilarious. (Also at least one Porch FB, a few "not Tesla, Ev's ok", and some "ICE for the win" luddites)
This is a perfect example of the difference between a legacy ICE OEM that is converting to BEV, versus a new BEV OEM that is working from first principles and a clear slate. It is really amazing.
Yes, it is, because the legacy OEM who knows how to build cars built a car with a cooling system that is actually working, as it's supposed to, because overheating hasn't been an issue for ICE cars for decades. Tesla on the other hand built a cheap and simple cooling system that fails to keep the car in working order for more than 10 minutes of spirited driving on a hot day. I'll take the legacy OEM product any day, thanks.
@@derbigpr500 Oh you mean working like this? insideevs.com/news/520468/ford-mustang-mache-overheating-regen/ Yes yes. Now where are the cases in which Tesla's cooling system aren't working?
@@derbigpr500 "...legacy OEM who knows how to build cars built a car with a cooling system that is actually working." You sure about that? Why are Mach-E's overheating and dying on steep hills in Norway? Must be Ford's over-engineered thermal management system.
Fascinating video, guys. While I don't own an EV, currently, I feel confident in my Tesla stock purchase. There is no Tesla killer on the horizon. The number of hoses alone on the Mach-E was shocking. A Medusa nightmare.
There IS a Tesla killer on the horizon. Sandy himself is working on it and it never gets mentioned... it's still a bit too soon. But when it happens, the world will not be the same.
Tesla has had to work very hard on manufacturability; they have to squeeze out costs everywhere they can -- doubly so, since simpler assembly is required if you are trying to speed up the assembly line. The result is plain to see -- they have a pretty elegant, simple, inexpensive system. Ford can get there; it is just a matter of putting in the engineering time. The Mach E is a pretty early generation BEV for Ford, so expect much better things in just a couple years. (*crosses fingers*) they will get there faster if they buy the reports.
Ford Mustang owners have heat during extreme cold, however some Tesla owners been complaining since 2001 that there is not enough heat to keep windows defrosted. Fast-forward to 2022 more Tesla owners complaining and Tesla's over the air updates have caused more vehicles to have issues.
@@GrandmasterFU666 My post was 5 months ago. Tesla is currently having issues with an expansion valve getting stuck open in extreme cold. They made a mistake and yes they should (and will) fix it. I'm pretty sure the software fix alone won't solve the issue however. Probably a mix of this recent software update and a physical replacement of the valve in question. To your point about not enough heat in Tesla's since 2001, I can't speak for early Tesla's, just my 2018 Model 3 that has plenty of heat. But mine has the resistive heating element and not this new heat pump. To your final point about updates in general causing "more vehicles (Teslas) to have issues". That's a very general statement and perhaps difficult to rebut by design. I can only speak to my own experience with my 2018 Model 3. The software updates have generally been very positive for me. Introducing many new fun and useful features over the last couple years. Unlike cars of old, who's features never change, mine has gotten better and better over time. I love it. I'm happy to see companies like Ford finally embracing this new paradigm and follow Tesla's lead. There have been some down sides (such as questionable placement of some UI elements), but on the whole I've been excited at every update.
@@39401JLB - There are some parallels in software, easy to write tons of code to do something but much harder to do the same thing in way less lines of elegant code. I'd say Tesla has lots of elegant code but probably not the competition, esp VW.
I've never cared about cars in this regard but, my God this is an eye opener. Love Love love this presentation. Certainly an eye opener for me. Thanks for all you do Sandy, Ben, Cory, and the TEAM.
I have an armchair interest in engineering... but after watching this, I wish I had studied thermdynamics. First class television and compelling viewing for everyone.
Lol, Tesla cant even make a AC that last more then 1 year. My Lexus AC works as new after 22 years, my friends Model 3 AC cant even work when the heat starts. Junk product.
@@epoxy1710 yes one case of failure means the company is trash. My Toyota needed it’s a/c fixed after two years, does my case mean Toyota is trash?? Sometimes parts just fail.
Old guy here, I recall my dad's 79 Lincoln, so many hoses! Then, my 91 Chevy truck, much better, very few hoses. I really dislike hoses, I will say it....that Ford Mach-E is truly a nightmare!
The Ford table takes me back in time when we worked on all the insane pollution control components loaded on the big three cars in the 1980’s. This looks like history is repeating it's self. Remember those air pumps, vacuum systems and hoses...
Guys out of genuine curiosity. Does youtube pay back enough to cover your cost or is this just good marketing to get additional customers? This content is outstanding and we are grateful you are making it.
I would say the ad revenue is enough from the videos. but i do agree it's a presentation in what they can do so their product (teardown manuals) look valuable.
$3/1000 views is a good guess for TH-cam. These videos don't really cover the cost of a new car but if they get one additional customer to buy their reports they have made profit.
The quote by Scottie from Star Trek comes to mind here: The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. This sure looks like that to me. Yikes!
@@derbigpr500 Yeah MachE is definitely having overheating issues. Which is surprising with all the hoses and coolant. insideevs.com/news/520468/ford-mustang-mache-overheating-regen/
@@dothehelenkellerlips Those are breakdowns and issues with the software. There's a difference between a cooling system breaking down and causing overheating, and a cooling system that is badly designed and built and CANNOT do the job properly even when it's functioning perfectly.
@@hagestad Its almost guaranteed that hydrogen has no future in the passenger vehicle segment. Hydrogen is less efficient than batteries and always will be (energy changes forms more times). Hydrogen would have to build out brand new expensive infrastructure while BEVs takes advantage of the electricity infrastructure we already have/need. Hydrogen vehicles are dramatically less performant than BEVs. Hydrogen vehicles are potentially more convenient (if infrastructure is built out and batteries don't make gains in charging speed) for very long trips, but less convenient in every day use as you can easily charge at home or at offices with BEVs. I could see hydrogen playing a part in long term grid storage or large vehicle transportation like planes, boats, and semis (although some of these might also be doable with batteries), but there's really almost no benefit to pursuing hydrogen for passenger vehicles.
@@hagestad True, hydrogen definitely has much higher energy density than batteries, but in the real world this alone doesn't yield much of a benefit. Hydrogen is more volume limited than weight limited and you need some pretty beefy hardware to shrink the size of the hydrogen tank down to a reasonable size for a passenger vehicle as well as the fuel cell itself to turn that hydrogen into electricity for the motor. That all adds weight. Add in the fact that batteries can actually do double duty by acting as a structural member and you can reduce the weight discrepancy even more. Once you get larger though the weight benefit for Hydrogen starts kicking in. A larger tank stores volume more efficiently than a smaller tank so you'd probably have a smaller weight penalty per kg of hydrogen on a semi truck than a small sedan. The difference would be even bigger for big planes and especially a shipping container. Regardless of all that, weight itself doesn't really matter. What matters depends on what you are trying to do. For a passenger vehicle the things you care about would be efficiency, performance, space, convenience, and cost of operation. Weight definitely impacts all of those things, but you can't just compare weight itself. All things being equal a heavier car would be worse in all those categories (except space, it doesn't really impact that), but all things are not equal. Since hydrogen has to go through more steps to get to the motor hydrogen vehicles are actually less efficient than BEVs. Since weight distribution is much better in a BEV than hydrogen (lower center of gravity) and batteries have much better power output BEVs perform much better than hydrogen vehicles. I would suspect that BEVs have more useable space than hydrogen due to the extra equipment and hydrogen having poor volumetric density, but there aren't many fuel cell vehicles to compare to so let's call this a draw. Hydrogen and Batteries trade blows in convenience since batteries can recharge at home, but hydrogen can refill faster for long trips, but batteries are making large improvements in this arena and hydrogen has basically no infrastructure built out and it would be a HUGE undertaking to do so. Hydrogen is and likely always will be more expensive than batteries since hydrogen has more energy conversion steps and therefore will always have lower efficiency to create and use. Went on a longer rant than I meant to, but I just don't see how the one advantage (road trips, and BEVs might catch up in this category anyway) makes up for all the disadvantages. Again, this is for passenger vehicles. This is a different story for larger vehicles and especially grid storage uses.
You sure of that? Tesla is lagging far behind many big car companies in many aspects. Tesla makes mediocre products at best, only their delusional fanboys can't see it, because most of you know nothing about cars. Tesla is a joke in terms of engineering compared to what Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, etc. are doing. Not to mention many of the more advanced boutique brands. Tesla's are like bread toasters of the automotive world.
So it boils down to one thing- Ford is trying to keep a profit model in place by designing an engineering nightmare that will increase the number of components that can fail and amp up service hours to keep money flowing back to dealerships after the sale.
MIND BLOWN!!! JUST WOW. I mean guys this stuff is night and day. The stuff Tesla is doing now....at this point just isn't fair. Excelent job MUNRO TEAM. And like others have said in the comments you 3 have something going here. Keep it up.
Do you suppose Ford, GM, and VW never watched Sandy take apart Model Y? If they did they learned alot less than I have. This is truely educational video.
why would they? they buy 20 times more expensive cars just to cut them up and beat them at their game. They do the same research on their own much faster than Sandy. There is a reason why both Porsche and Mercedes have electric cars that Tesla are not even close in terms of quality and feel. And barely better millage. Porsche have been using heatpumps for a while. Much more sophisticated ones than those in Tesla.
@@hagestad wait a second, isn’t the Plaid model S faster (by a lot), more affordable (by a lot) , more spacious, more range and get’s over the air updates do fix problems. Last I checked Porsche Tycan just had a recall for every single Tycan and they had to be dragged to the dealer, something Tesla could have done over the air (no dealer needed)
@@jdog8701 - actually I am subscriber. and while Sandy likes the Mexican Mustang, I find it to be INCORRECT for the market, it's NOT a Mustang, but Muck-e is a 🐎 & buggy car. they can't even build a 2018 model 3 in 2021. and the Mach-e is killing Mustang sales already.
@@markplott4820 the mustang name is marketing get over it, and most people prefer the mach e (outside) look over the model y's bulbous look The sales thing idk yet its hard to judge numbers with the chip shortage causing so many delays on new cars
The unstated "and then there's" is the assembly line. The Tesla system appears like it can be almost entirely preassembled into a package on a separate specialty line, then brought in and integrated at one or two stations. I can't even imagine the number of supply streams to the main assembly line, stations, workers, training and opportunity for error the Mach-e system presents. To say nothing of the wasted battery pumping all that fluid around constantly. Ouch!!
Ford are watching (Sandy, off the Christmas card list!?) The designers are shaking their heads. The engineers are thinking "we told them" The mud tier management are looking for excuses. The executives are phoning industry media to drum up deflection articles. (It'll be "Mach E car of the year".... Hilarious!) Doesn't alter the fact. If étron wasn't already taken, this would be a contender!
You have a great capable team Sandy. The value of this visual presentation is beyond belief. The weight, length of hoses complexity, brackets, additional, fasteners, and number of pieces and pumps and fluid. WOW. What is even more amazing was Your statement that as bad as it is, the MACH E. It is better than the rest. HOLY COW. TESLA is only 5 years ahead in design?
There is almost 30 pounds more coolant in the mach-e not to mention all the added weight of the hose that must exist to contain that fluid. incredible.
If someone had told Sandy 20 years ago that one day he'd have an employee who was a "Thumbnail Artist", he would have thought they were crazy! By the way, the thumbnails are great!
I Really wish Cory would remember to turn on the Closed Captions on these videos. It's just one button in TH-cam Studio. You just turn it on! Please remember to do that. Thank You.
Here are some Important material science differences between Tesla and Mach E coolant hoses left out from the Sandy Munro’s TH-cam video, as tweeted by Alex Lim: I'm developing material for those coolant hose and I have some hints to share: i) the rubber hoses in Mach-E are traditional rubber and can't be recycled easily because it's vulcanized with sulphur ii) rubber hoses are very heavy (0.2-0.4 lb/ft, depends on diameter) iii) rubber hoses requires high energy input to manufacture, less flexible for fitting into tight space, but material cost is low iv) Tesla uses nylon material for tubing, which is a thermoplastic that's recyclable and more energy efficient to produce v) nylon tubings are more flexible, very lightweight (0.06-0.08 lb/ft, depends on diameter), material cost is however 3-4 times more expensive than rubber Of all current BEVs, Tesla is the only one implemented 100% nylon tubing, most others uses rubber hose. Tesla nylon solution is multilayer type, inner layer can resist coolant well. With volume, nylon cost should go down. The rubber hose is made of synthetic rubber (like roof material), so it’s price less likely affected, but raw material price went up anyway. twitter.com/miracleofmatl?s=21
Mr Munro and team never have I seen such exceptional bench marking 13 minutes to communicate what true good lean design looks like, feels like and means in the real world to the potential broad audience now watching Munro Live. Well done guys, you know I think you stand half a chance of providing proof positive that its Tesla's engineering finesse that is going to win out every time and maybe Wall Street will get what we all get thanks to you guys.ITS THE ENGINEERING.......well live in hope!
I think this makes the Mach-e look over complicated but i am unsure that its longetivity and performance are hindered by what looks complicated. The individual components are all well tried and tested and very inexpensive should they fail. My petrol mustang probably had 2000 engine parts and never had a single problem in the 4 years of ownership. All fairly straightforward fittings and components. Im happy to see how these two compare in ten years time.
I remember when I was starting out in my career, the wise older workers would listen to my ideas, then explain the pros, cons, and reasons to use my idea or shoot it down. The not so wise ones would tell me not to tell them anything since they had been doing their job for 20 years, and I always wanted to respond with "And you still don't know what you are doing?".
@Craig Whitley I disagree. You need 19 "one year engineers" (all top of their class) and one "20 year engineer" who WAS top of their class and listens to the others. I think I just unwittingly described Elon Musk in the "Munro design meeting" anecdote?
FINALY! Sandy introduces give some credit to his associates! Much smoother, much more comprehensive much better tone to this video than most anything you’ve done before. It always bothered me that you never troubled to introduce and give credit to your associates.
A case of "seeing is believing". Also, because it's a learning curve with these new electric vehicles, Ford should be severely admonished for not calling in outside consultants to assist especially since Tesla has a big head start. Or, the least they could have done was to buy a Tesla, dismantle and study it, I mean it's done all the time.
@@MunroLive You guys should add a bit more for us with the powertrain, battery, thermal management, electronics etc. The plaid is special as it's a new record holder and we helped fund it, well I did at least, patiently waiting for my signed bumper sticker 😏
That is why Mercedes doesn't let you open the hood of the EQS! From an Engineering standpoint your opinions are all perfectly valid, complexity leads to reliability issues, more weight, etc. You do have to realize that Tesla is on version 4.0 while the Mach E is a Beta :)
![[FULL EP.16] เซียนพาลุย "เผือก-ฟรอยด์" กรี๊ดลั่น จนปูหนี | เฮ็ดอย่างเซียนหรั่ง | One Playground](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FsqUvwS3b-Y/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks everyone for the great response to this video! After we published we noticed a small calculation error on the fluid weight in kg. Rather then remove the video to repair the error, we chose to pin this comment to preserve the 1100+ plus comments of dialogue. Both the Model Y weight and Mach-E weight were equally penalized with higher totals, but the relative delta remained consistent. We will have Sandy clarify in a future Mach-E video. Thanks everyone! - Munro Live Team
This is why I love you Munro's, For your Honesty! You seen you've made an error, you take responsibility for it, then take the best decision to correct it and move on. Keep doing your best, because your best is good enough. HUGS!
Do you folks also take into account the (I reckon, of course you do) weight of the fluids throughout the vehicle someplace? Please highlight that aspect in a video too some day, fluids seem to be one of the easier places to reduce weight. I know from the motorcycling world that the fluid weights are significant, many manufacturers there report the weight without the essential fluids!
Hello sandy i love your show. Can you give a comment to the poor guy who broke this connector on his tesla. They wanted to sell him a new battery pack. Thanks!
yes and no, cause an engineer in the big companies has to use parts of the shelves and is trained to use them instead of reinventing the wheel.
Yes, it would be beneficial for each of them to check how Tesla had done it before starting to work on the next iteration of the id family which will also be used by Ford for small cars and next Mustang iteration.
But where would Tesla be if Ford and VW would no longer make these mistakes again and again ?
Tesla is unable to deal with corporate customers at least here and a company does not care about all the great tesla cars as long they can not deliver that to the customer where the employees then will have to work to get their tesla get fixed cause Tesla does not care nor has an infrastructure to do that. That is where Ford and VW outperform Tesla , same for leasing offers and other services, at least here in central europe, not Siberia.
Might be time for you to pick up and call Mr. Diess from VW to talk about the future since he now has gotten his new contract he had to fight for the last 12 to 24 months.
Might be worth to jump onto his feet now before the next ID family generation development starts ...
@@m.h.9244Only one I could find was this: teslaownersonline.com/threads/broken-charge-port-pin-left-me-dead-in-the-water.16520/ He fixed it himself. The connector has since been redesigned to prevent this issue.
If you have another case, please share. Otherwise, it looks like you're spreading FUD.
The killer was "and this is the second best we've seen!"
mind. blown.
All those future leak points down the road too. With Tesla you have 10 hoses so 20 hose connections that might leak at some point, with Ford you have 35 hoses or 70 possible leak points. Not including pumps and other components and its all stretched out over the engine bay instead of in one location.
10:48
I fell out of my chair, burst in laughter
@@andycanfixit
I said after part 1
"5 year timebomb"
Ford engineers to dealership - Don't worry we have built in a lot of maintenance down the road to keep you busy, keep plenty of hoses on hand.
Problem is, they can't. JIT is a big thing for Ford dealerships, and sometimes the part you need now is on back-order for who knows how long, even for brand-new vehicles. Ford should outsource their parts inventory to Amazon.
@@hallkbrdz Amazon is filled with counterfit cheap parts. It's really bad
That's exactly what this is about. Their ecosystem. It is not about the car itself but they car manufacturers and dealerships accross the globe.
I can only imagine the number of hoses the dealerships would have to stock.
ford owners: yay. picnic day at the dealership
The worst thing a Mach E owner wants to hear: "Hey, you've got a coolant leak"
Laforge to bridge, coolant leak, I got a coolant leak in the Main reactor, and I can't stop it, 15 minutes to CORE detonation. - Jordy.
But at least they've got two independent loops so not everything gets fried at once.
The two pumps required because the pathways are so long reminds me of the story that big lumbering dinosaurs had two brains because the neurons were so long. I'm sure there's a metaphor there somewhere.
@@markplott4820 lol i was gonna type the same thing
"You have a coolant leak - we need to take the engine out" "Engine???" "Yeah - we pop a small one in between all the hoses, just in case the electrics don't work."
@@Error6503 Nothing to fry on a EV car if you happen to have a coolant leak. The temperature ranges that EV cars (Ford, Tesla, Porsche, Audi, ect) cooling loops are exposed to is no where near boiling point.
More in the upper 80's at the most.
Therefore if the systems detect a leak, they simply lower the battery discharge rates and allow you to get home.
You can safely open any EV coolant circuit and you aren't ever going to get boiling coolant sprayed in the face.
he is giving so much content for free, then imagine the depth of his paid reports. Good video with clear numbers at the end
That is exactly our goal! You get it. Thanks Ganesh.
Just by watching these videos OEMs could save years of development, they don't seem to be watching though. When they can't even match technology used in cars that have been on the road for 8+ years...it says a lot.
@@MunroLive Even if they charge $80,000 per report, it would likely be worth it for VW to buy them. Not just one report -- buy them all !
Ganesh - Munro offered the BMW i3 Report for only $5.
and Munro sells simple reports that are affordable, and EZ to understand to the lay person.
Yeah, I'm happy more and more engineering channels are using SI units, when it comes to calculations and conversions they are just easier to deal with!
Wow. It's like they have brackets for brackets.
They do.
Love the response from Munro Live....LMAO!!!!
@@MunroLive Keep up the good work! Been watching since '18 when Sandy first ripped into the Model 3. Constructive criticism is great, which leads to better things for people. In a small way, I bought the i3 and Model Y sample reports last year as a way to show support. :)
Also, a random tidbit is with the Mach-E here in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Ford dealerships won't let you test drive the car.
Yo Dawg I heard you like brackets...so we put brackets on your brackets!
Be the first to have a Ford Mach-E Lawn ornament! 😂
Ben
"first we're going to grab all the lines that the Mach E has..."
Me
Falls off chair laughing.
When Ben dumped that box full of Mach E cooling hoses on the table with a flourish, I was stunned.
@@mikedx2706
Luckily, I wasn't holding my coffee....... And it GOT WORSE!!
The real hero of this episode is the Home Depot box.
@@rogerstarkey5390
Yup a nightmare indeed
That was a great part
Watching the Mack- e parts being laid out on the table reminds me of those info-mercials where they tell you: “but wait…there is more!”
this made me laff. Good analogy.
and if you act now, we’ll throw in the kitchen sink
It's like the Ford engineers forgot about the cooling system after the rest of the car was built, and had to quickly cobble together something that looks like a home hobby job.
In my experience as a tier 1 or 2 with the OEM'S YES line routing etc is not considered early enough in the process. Not just lines. The functional areas of the vehicles are sent to different design departments for design and integration. And some have more say or power in decision making. So if a cooling system eng says hey we need to change something to be better it may be considered too late, the more powerful team won’t change or maybe won't be allow to change due to launch issues. Why OEM's are so focused on meeting launch vs making a better product is a fault in the system.
This!
Thank you for showing side by side comparison. Numbers are great, but showing things physically side by side really put things into perspective a lot more easily.
Great point!
It's like putting current wife - Tesla next to the ex-wife -- Mach E
I particularly enjoyed the motor videos because you almost always have two or three different ones for comparison. It'll be really interesting when you get a 4680 Tesla battery pack and can put it side-by-side with one of the older ones.
As always, I'm blown away by the engineering that Tesla does. The Mach-E looks like a spaghetti monster by comparison!
AND the Ford dealers are very happy! Tons of stuff to break down and require a service visit!
@@wilber8260 Last time I checked dealers refuse to take Mach-Ees in, coz trying to update the firmware will brick them...
Yep, mindless needless complexity....shows a company stuck in the 70's.
That what I thought
@@HVM_fi Any more info you could share about this?
Bob Lutz: "The OEM's are going to blow them out of the water because of their 100 years of know how." I'm paraphrasing of course, but he did same something to that effect.
Where is the putz? Haven''t heard him spout off too much lately. Notice that?
Yes he did say that on many occasions. The Bill Maher show for one. What hubris and stupidity.
Big boys are coming!
and they did. Porsche taycan is much better car - for a much more money. has even better heat pump system and is nicer to drive.
@hagestad you do realize that the taycan is worse than the mach e, right? Sandy says this indirectly in this video. Troll elsewhere, please.
More brackets than a Bad Obsession Motorsport build!
FUD motors uses bracket to hold up brackets........LOL.
I was about to say. 😉 But *Bad Obsession Motorsports* actually has better design skills and tighter tolerances. Even *Project Binky* was put together better.
The *Mach-E* is an absolute mess of redundant and superfluous parts meandering all over the place.
This couldn't get past a software design phase review, never mind approval for implementation.
Oh man I was thinking the same thing, except if they're watching this they're sicking up in their shed at the poor execution. Binky is a marvel of CAD engineering the Mach-E is engineering by parts bin committee!
@@anydaynow01 Cardboard Aided Design. The best CAD by far.
Nice to see you here @mikeselectricstuff - it would be awesome to see a collaboration video with Sandy Munro and you !! Anyway, hope to see some new tear-down videos from you Mike as well !
35 rubber hoses filled with coolant. 70 clamps with the potential to leak. Almost unbelievable.
Don't forget that they have dealers to please, they need to something to break and charge $$$
Don’t forget the 4 pumps at $600 or more
@@martinbeaudoin666 Question is why they need to please the dealers. What are they going to do? If they drop their agreement with Ford, they would do Ford a favor in the long run. Ford would be able to sell direct to the customers like Tesla. As long as they have a dealer network, they can't do that. Ford does benefit from the maintenance because they can sell parts to the dealers and other mechanics.
I don't really get this. From a production viewpoint , sure, there is cost involved. But as a consumer I'm not that worried. I have a fairly largeish boat. Got way more hoses and clamps than that. 14 of them connected to through wholes that could sink the boat if they fail. Inspected once every year and changed every ten. I sleep soundly.
As long as ford uses quality parts this is more of a problem for Ford (and sandy does well to point that out) than the consumer.
That said, if I was a ford executive I wold get Sandy to simplify this.
@@higfny you assume its a simple issue of quality parts. Ford and GM have a history of crappy parts. Doesnt bode well.
35 hoses = 70 connections. 70 places for a leak and in a previous video Sandy and crew showed how difficult it is to get to many of those hoses and connections. Wow, a repair nightmare down the road for Mach E owners. Better buy the extended warranty.
I can see whole powertrain and suspension removals to fix/find leaks. Wow, what a nightmare. I sure wouldn't want to be owning a Mach-E for very long as I'm sure the stealerships are ready to HOSE customers for the ongoing maintenance costs (maybe purposely engineered like that?)
The plaid teardown will be epic.
Coming soon!
@@MunroLive When are you going to compare the Tesla Plaid to the Porsche Taycan? That will be epic.
@@mikedx2706
You notice that this time there's been no "Ah, but!" comments from Porsche or their "enthusiasts"?
Not one.
Ken 1
Preceded by
"Must we?"
"Do we HAVE TO?"
"Can we delay for a week or two??"
@@rogerstarkey5390 Ford: Tbe best hose is more hoses.
This was merciless!
"Cruel ............ But Fair!"
@@rogerstarkey5390 Quick and merciful--it is the Gorn way...
Mercy is not the point; finding & fixing problems is the point. Munro & co know their stuff, and the critiques are on-point. If Ford can cut their parts count on that coolant system in half, they will save a bundle in costs -- and their product will be much better.
The Mach-E thermal system team at Ford must be having emergency meetings after watching this video.
It's a little late for that.
I can assure you they don't. They don't watch TH-cam...
That's the problem.
"TEAM"
I get the impression the Ford system was designed by committee, with members in different buildings.
The Tesla?
Two (talented) designers 10 feet apart.
We're number two!
Ford thermal teams don't communicate with one another.
Probably the hardest hitting video in the entire series, going back to the first Model 3 teardown in 2018.
The potential dealership revenue from repairing leaks and replacing hoses on the Mach E will be significant.
imagine it as used car out of warranty....
$2.50 for the part.
$350 labor.
(Nothing new there then)
Telsa HVAC team is brilliant 🔥🔥
And they manage to squeeze a heat pump in there
Yeee they make ground connectors that brakes of after 2 years in salt
Ironically , the Ford guys probably brag in the break room - "Those simpletons at Tesla could NEVER figure out our hose nest"
The Tesla HVAC system also has a really high failure rate and is not serviceable at all. If something goes wrong the whole thing has to be replaced.
@@DanielBlaney True enough. At least at one point. It's all still a work in progress, for all automakers. I marvel at the brilliance of Tesla engineering (no word less than brilliant fits), although due to the quantity over quality philosophy of Elon I'm not sure if I'll ever buy a Tesla.
Another great analysis and discovery
At battery day Elon said their goal was to become the best manufacturing company in the world. This was my biggest takeaway from "battery day" . I doubled my holdings afterwards.
What they are currently is one of the best automotive design companies. The rest of the manufacturing process still leaves a lot to be desired.
I think that I would rather have a slightly misaligned door or trunk than the mess on the ford table.....just saying....
these tear downs certainly influenced my decision to buy a Model Y!
@@justlookin59 Looks like you will be waiting for eternity. The model s came out in '12 . It's been a decade the others still aren't close.
@@moki123g right, tesla has been absolutely leap frogged by Ford. Tesla was only profitable from selling carbon credits and now that the federal incentive is gone, they are a bubble waiting to collapse
Anyone seeing this video would be nuts to buy a Mach-E. I wouldn't touch one with a 10' pole.
Wow, this is striking. Never mind the software (OTA), power train efficiency, BMS, and battery chemistry advantages Tesla holds as well. The industry needs to step up or a major rout is coming.
A major rout has been occurring for a few years. But until recently it appeared small and moving slowly. That is what 'exponential' looks like.
And people think Tesla stock is overrated and others are 'catching up'.
Fools, the lot of 'em.
@@peterzerfass4609 I think this video shows the difference between a company where the leader is an engineer and values good engineering like Musk at Tesla and the legacy automakers where the leader is a business school type who only values the company’s share price.
No need to worry -- _The Competition Is Coming._ Haven't you been paying attention to the analysts? 😀
@@peterzerfass4609 I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I've heard countless calls to sell TSLA because of insert Tesla killer here. My modest investment over 8 years ago has grown insanely. Tesla's margins are also insane and this video demonstrates why.
Good presentation to the Three Amigos.
Thanks!
That is polite aspersions if I ever seen it done. Had to giggle at the hose dump.
I'm surprised they didn't dump them out of a rubbish bin or bag for true effect!
And just...... "The Dump"
The competition is coming - in their pants when seeing what tesla is doing. Ford seemingly does this to keep dealerships well-stocked and well-employed
They are REAL car makers and they KNOW how to make cars - Jim Chanos
@@danielstapler4315 haha I see what you did there
This is a very good example of the good old "too many chefs in the kitchen" phrase. Too much reliance on off the shelf components, too much old school thinking "just slap it on there" without much regard to weight and function. Hopefully this is a wakeup call to the car industry, that the golden era of wasteful and afterthought design is dead.
This is also what happens when you stop letting the engineers run the company.
I always enjoy teardowns from Munro even though I am a Software Engineer.
I am sure there is a software equivalent to this hose debacle.
@@houdini8172 it's called spaghetti code...lol
Also a software dev, there’s definitely lessons in simple understandable processes in these videos.
@@610Alpha lol yes😂
@@houdini8172 Software equivalent: take the hoses off and put them back on again.
OK, my one genie wish is to have Sandy do a teardown comparison of the SpaceX Dragon and Boeing Starliner capsules. Even from what we know already there's a vast difference between SpaceX's approach and the legacy aerospace company's use what we know approach along with compartmented engineers.
That would be a dream come true.
That would never be allowed there are too many secrets with that technology.
Meanwhile as this video was being watched by Ford/GM/Toyota/VW engineers...down in the Telsa Bat Cave a new and improved version is already being built...
You mean at Tesla Area 51 research center?
VW already have heatpumps for a while in Porsche Taycan. They are much more sophisticated than Tesla's system. You gotta remember Porsche was engineering consultant firm first and automaker second until VW bought them. As a company they have 100 years lead in electric cars over Tesla. 1898 was the year Ferdinand build his first hybrid. Its no brainer Tesla has no chance against porsche/vw as far as who makes better car. The thing is to make a profit on it. that is a different game.
@@hagestad This is stupid reasoning. Ford builds cars since the beginning too. Mach-E also has a heatpump didn't you see?
@@hagestad stupid logic. Tesla already builds a faster car with more range than the Porsche. What are you saying?
@@hagestad You mean the 'advanced' heatpumps where VW had to go and change the text on the configurator recently (because nextmove in germany actually did a test as to their efficiency and found no effect whatsoever)? The 'advanced' heatpumps where they are now retroactively paying a total of 20 million Euros to buyers of new cars because it was basically false advertising (they seem to have learned nothing from Dieselgate). The 'advanced' heatpump they now reduced drastically in price (it is, of course, a not included extra)
They even changed the text on the configurator regarding the heatpump from "up to 30% more range" to "power consumption for heating the cabin at outside temperatures below freezing can be reduced up to 40%". Is that the 'advanced' heatpump you're referring to?
The crazy thing is that this doesn't actually have a hell of a lot to do with the cars being EVs. This this just Tesla designing a better cooling/heating system - ICE makers have been doing this for years! Tesla not only beats them at the EV power train but at this too?
they have been milking services for one hundred years
That just shows the Emperor is actually naked. My specialization is elsewhere, but I am an old engineer and this shows serious lack of integration in the industry and lack of creativity. I always thought that an engineer's job is to innovate and keep thinking all the time.
Mach-E: "Okay, we need a pump, and we need a valve, so we will also need brackets to fix them to the chassis, and a pipe to connect the two components."
Tesla: "Okay, we need a pump, and we need a valve, so how can we put both in the car with as few extra parts as possible?"
It's almost as if the decision makers at Ford assumed that the Mach-E won't sell in any significant numbers, so it won't pay to retool for better integrated components
The problem is that legacy builders buy nearly all parts from suppliers, because these are cheaper. This means that the parts don’t integrate. Tesla designs and builds complete units. For legacy firms to go back to building parts themselves is like starting a car firm from scratch. No Legacy experience advantage.
@@rrolf71 “won’t pay to retool” not enough people have hit on this. There are so many decisions that go into bringing a product to market. I think a lot of the contracting/supplier paradigm hurts legacy auto manufacturers for sure. There are plenty of advantages inherent to Tesla’s vertical integration of engineering. That said, just because a company like Ford designed a less efficient cooling system doesn’t mean they are stupid. They may have just chosen not to spend the money in certain areas at this time. Could they have spent more money developing the cooling system and gotten a better result? Probably. Did they need to at this time? Hard to answer, but I don’t think it’s going to make or break the vehicle.
Tesla do great things same they can’t get their body panels to line up 🤷♂️ Both companies do good and bad things.
Explains some of the “production hell” when Tesla was rolling out the model 3 - experience pain in the beginning but see the fruits of their labor and effort in efficiency and improved reliability - no pain no gain - Ford went for speed to production - less pain- and tweaks to existing convention.
How are you not a million subscribers , awesome
Tell your friends!
I told my engineer friend and he is trying not to hear any of this.
Channels frequently take time to build and then seem to explode overnight- I could see that happening here.
They'll get there.
@@MunroLive
Prediction.
Plaid teardown + 6 weeks = ~1 million
I appreciate the use of metric system units! Thanks! Awesome comparison!
No problem!
Same here!
Yeah, metric for the win (although you have to add THREE zeros when converting from kilograms to grams ;-)
Would love to hear Cory talk more in future episodes!
No thanks. He's got a Tesla fetish worse than Sandy.
True, but backed by data.
@Munro Live 10 out of 10 for that reply :)
@@rmkilc
It's called "integrity"
@@rogerstarkey5390 No need to come off as a Tesla shill though. Although most viewers probably enjoy that.
Someone once said that a product's architecture will mirror the organizational structure of the company that produced it. To restructure Ford, or any of the legacy automakers, so they can effectively compete with Tesla is not only be a formidable task, but will be resisted tooth and nail by every division vice president and department manager.
You're right. I'm sure Ford has excellent engineers with plenty of resources... plenty of everything except management vision and direction.
Elon says this
@@ericogden4589
Sandy says this!
Paraphrased "until retires, or dies, nothing changes"
@@positiveoutlook17
Ford has "engineers" working a system.
Tesla has "creators"
@@positiveoutlook17 - The real good ones left for Tesla or SpaceX awhile back.
Sandy after they finish with the Mach-E: "Guys, the reports for Tesla Model 3 and Y are here, you don't need anything else unless you want to study ancient history."
ps: Steven from Solving the Money Problem is going to have a field day with this one and I'll be waiting for that.
Excellent comparison, thanks for your expertise. Also, received my bumpersticker for the Plaid fundraiser, looks great!
Hope you enjoy it!
@@MunroLive are you going to address the sound insulation/NVH performance of the Model 3 & Y. I have a model 3 and love it, because of its handling, speed and looks (yes I like the looks of the Model 3!). However what I do not like is the noise in the cabin when we’re on the highway. Especially when there are more people in the car. In that aspect, the Mach E and especially iD4 perform better, don’t they.
I’m surprised Elon just does not donate one to you at this point. I’m sure even he wouldn’t want to hear your opinion
@@mdf1978 I believe the model 3s made after October of 2020 have double paned glass to help with sound insulation. I got my 3 a couple months before that and missed that change sadly, though the cabin noise seems fine on all but the worst roads.
@@mdf1978 The one thing about the Model 3 that isn't a level of magnitude better than any other car is the suspension, imho. Particularly here in the UK where some of our roads are shockingly bad.
No that's an impactful presentation!! Even my brother, a lifelong thermodynamic engineer, just subscribed...great job guys
Thank you very much!
Just the visual of the compact assembly then pan to a table full of stuff make the point here!
It is a little exaggerated for effect -- once assembled, it will take up less space. The underlying point is well made, though -- reduce the part count, especially the number of fasteners, and make the whole thing simpler for the operators to build. You end up with a less costly build, with fewer potential failure points.
@@39401JLB yep - love the theater though!
The Ford table looks like the contents of our shed…no one dares enter it.
This is something the average auto review doesn’t talk about…stylistic/marketing features yes, the engineering bit, no.
The three of you make a great presentation team, by the way.
"There be BEASTIES in there!!"
Maybe they (Ford) are trying to scare off third party repairers.
They are kind of scaring me.
It's like mine too but to be fair my shed does have the parts from two stripped Model S and also some Leaf bits in it :)
@@RaglansElectricBaboon Nice!
Who actually disliked this video?? Sooo well presented
Ford engineers.
@@martingardens You forgot to mention Gates and Dayco.
the 2 Dislikes were from PHIL LaBeau and Gordon Johnson.........lol.
Three Ford vice presidents of hoses.
There's a "Ford Fanboy" infiltration.
They're quite hilarious.
(Also at least one Porch FB, a few "not Tesla, Ev's ok", and some "ICE for the win" luddites)
This is a perfect example of the difference between a legacy ICE OEM that is converting to BEV, versus a new BEV OEM that is working from first principles and a clear slate. It is really amazing.
Yes, it is, because the legacy OEM who knows how to build cars built a car with a cooling system that is actually working, as it's supposed to, because overheating hasn't been an issue for ICE cars for decades. Tesla on the other hand built a cheap and simple cooling system that fails to keep the car in working order for more than 10 minutes of spirited driving on a hot day.
I'll take the legacy OEM product any day, thanks.
@@derbigpr500 Oh you mean working like this? insideevs.com/news/520468/ford-mustang-mache-overheating-regen/
Yes yes. Now where are the cases in which Tesla's cooling system aren't working?
@@derbigpr500 "...legacy OEM who knows how to build cars built a car with a cooling system that is actually working." You sure about that? Why are Mach-E's overheating and dying on steep hills in Norway? Must be Ford's over-engineered thermal management system.
Fascinating video, guys. While I don't own an EV, currently, I feel confident in my Tesla stock purchase. There is no Tesla killer on the horizon.
The number of hoses alone on the Mach-E was shocking. A Medusa nightmare.
There IS a Tesla killer on the horizon. Sandy himself is working on it and it never gets mentioned... it's still a bit too soon. But when it happens, the world will not be the same.
There will never be a 'Tesla Killer'. Tesla is here to stay; other good BEVs might come to market -- but that is something to be celebrated.
@@kirkjohnson9353
Don't say it has 3 wheels.
WOW! Mind blowing to see Tesla's HVAC next to Ford's. The engineering on Telsa's side is just stunning.
Tesla has had to work very hard on manufacturability; they have to squeeze out costs everywhere they can -- doubly so, since simpler assembly is required if you are trying to speed up the assembly line. The result is plain to see -- they have a pretty elegant, simple, inexpensive system.
Ford can get there; it is just a matter of putting in the engineering time. The Mach E is a pretty early generation BEV for Ford, so expect much better things in just a couple years. (*crosses fingers*) they will get there faster if they buy the reports.
@@39401JLB they will go bankrupt before that, like this month,August.😄goodluck with your dumbass essay you wrote for no reason. Sorry bro
Ford Mustang owners have heat during extreme cold, however some Tesla owners been complaining since 2001 that there is not enough heat to keep windows defrosted.
Fast-forward to 2022 more Tesla owners complaining and Tesla's over the air updates have caused more vehicles to have issues.
@@GrandmasterFU666 My post was 5 months ago. Tesla is currently having issues with an expansion valve getting stuck open in extreme cold. They made a mistake and yes they should (and will) fix it.
I'm pretty sure the software fix alone won't solve the issue however. Probably a mix of this recent software update and a physical replacement of the valve in question.
To your point about not enough heat in Tesla's since 2001, I can't speak for early Tesla's, just my 2018 Model 3 that has plenty of heat. But mine has the resistive heating element and not this new heat pump.
To your final point about updates in general causing "more vehicles (Teslas) to have issues". That's a very general statement and perhaps difficult to rebut by design. I can only speak to my own experience with my 2018 Model 3.
The software updates have generally been very positive for me. Introducing many new fun and useful features over the last couple years. Unlike cars of old, who's features never change, mine has gotten better and better over time. I love it. I'm happy to see companies like Ford finally embracing this new paradigm and follow Tesla's lead.
There have been some down sides (such as questionable placement of some UI elements), but on the whole I've been excited at every update.
@@39401JLB - There are some parallels in software, easy to write tons of code to do something but much harder to do the same thing in way less lines of elegant code. I'd say Tesla has lots of elegant code but probably not the competition, esp VW.
I just can't compliment you enough What a revelation of design
"In this case, 1 kg", LOL. Sandy threw a killer strike without even realizing it.
I've never cared about cars in this regard but, my God this is an eye opener. Love Love love this presentation. Certainly an eye opener for me. Thanks for all you do Sandy, Ben, Cory, and the TEAM.
I have an armchair interest in engineering... but after watching this, I wish I had studied thermdynamics. First class television and compelling viewing for everyone.
"Competition" is free advertising for Tesla .....
In the long term, most certainly.
Shocking that this is the number two of systems rated by Munro so far. Seems Tesla will be dragging along the whole industry for a good while yet!
Tesla isn’t dragging them along. They are burying the other guys. Unless Tesla loses interest, this contest is over before it really started.
That's what she said LOL......
Ford sales numbers by month. The last 2 months were really bad. They lost $1.3 Billion in 2020.
2005 183,379 234,208 281,906 260,741 263,949 265,698 343,768 266,798 209,587
2006 189,817 226,291 268,123 242,877 256,755 246,815 221,491 235,920 220,877
2007 151,416 194,310 243,541 209,694 239,579 228,376 177,167 200,401 173,554
2008 145,435 181,808 209,714 185,434 200,372 163,769 154,527 150,006 114,519
2009 89,085 94,035 122,605 126,385 153,437 144,357 157,198 175,274 107,811
2010 110,716 134,925 174,949 160,928 188,793 168,328 165,019 156,090 158,613
2011 125,141 153,513 209,439 186,725 189,137 190,540 178,822 173,573 172,788
2012 135,532 352,164 220,491 175,919 212,089 205,206 172,396 195,808 172,359
2013 164,777 193,462 233,409 208,787 242,860 233,538 192,212 219,574 183,176
2014 152,292 181,996 241,475 207,700 249,574 219,741 210,519 221,024 179,335
2015 177,382 179,648 234,774 221,603 250,077 224,671 222,009 233,879 221,261
2016 172,398 216,792 253,064 229,739 234,748 239,096 215,268 213,410 203,444
2017 171,186 207,464 234,895 213,436 240,250 227,166 199,318 209,029 221,643
2018 160,411 194,062 243,021 208,109 241,527 229,537 192,743 217,700 196,496
2019 188,882 185,353 208,523 209,639 241,889 187,511 189,476 212,214 174,317
2020 167,146 216,395 131,072 77,815 172,928 181,572 192,536 171,144 185,405
2021 142,577 162,834 213,270 197,063 160,520 114,676
Lol, Tesla cant even make a AC that last more then 1 year. My Lexus AC works as new after 22 years, my friends Model 3 AC cant even work when the heat starts. Junk product.
@@epoxy1710 yes one case of failure means the company is trash. My Toyota needed it’s a/c fixed after two years, does my case mean Toyota is trash?? Sometimes parts just fail.
This is just incredible. I am not an engineer but this easy to understand. Thank you.
Old guy here, I recall my dad's 79 Lincoln, so many hoses! Then, my 91 Chevy truck, much better, very few hoses. I really dislike hoses, I will say it....that Ford Mach-E is truly a nightmare!
1000:2 like/dislike ratio. Speaks volumes.
The two downvotes are from Ford Engineers who are sponsored by Gates.
Do you think Ford owns Gates Rubber? Maybe the Ford engineers own a lot of Gates stock!
Since a recent update to the TH-cam UI, I can only see the "Likes", the "Dislikes" number is not shown. How can I see both numbers?
Thank you Sandy and Team.
Thanks for watching!
The Ford table takes me back in time when we worked on all the insane pollution control components loaded on the big three cars in the 1980’s. This looks like history is repeating it's self. Remember those air pumps, vacuum systems and hoses...
When simply identifying the parts used in the system becomes an embarrassing roast, you've got a SERIOUS problem
Guys out of genuine curiosity. Does youtube pay back enough to cover your cost or is this just good marketing to get additional customers?
This content is outstanding and we are grateful you are making it.
I would say the ad revenue is enough from the videos. but i do agree it's a presentation in what they can do so their product (teardown manuals) look valuable.
Probably not but this is a business advertising.
@@jetah50 Goodness me, I bet they'd be happy if their TH-cam ad revenue was enough for Hawaiian pizza and Canadian Club for the gang each upload.
$3/1000 views is a good guess for TH-cam. These videos don't really cover the cost of a new car but if they get one additional customer to buy their reports they have made profit.
Sandy said he “can’t buy bubblegum” with TH-cam. I imagine he makes his money on consulting, and this is just a very good as for his services.
Sandy - You and your Team's engineering skills really are, making the world a better place to live.
The quote by Scottie from Star Trek comes to mind here: The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. This sure looks like that to me. Yikes!
Man I love this channel, it makes me sad every time I hear Sandy talking about retirement.
Yeah, let's make the old bugger work until he drops!
The production quality is amzing. Camera, sound, script, pacing, delivery, information; everything is top notch. 👌👍😍
Hi dev HORROR MOVIE!! 😁
Congrats Tesla engineers.
Yes, congrats for building cars that overheat and go into safe mode after you drive them hard for 10 minutes.
@@derbigpr500 Yeah MachE is definitely having overheating issues. Which is surprising with all the hoses and coolant.
insideevs.com/news/520468/ford-mustang-mache-overheating-regen/
@@dothehelenkellerlips Those are breakdowns and issues with the software. There's a difference between a cooling system breaking down and causing overheating, and a cooling system that is badly designed and built and CANNOT do the job properly even when it's functioning perfectly.
@@derbigpr500 homeboy, stop crying; go wash the cars at your ford dealership and let the engineers talk
@@derbigpr500 Oh the world is ending 😂😭😆
That's incredible.
I mean, start thinking for a sec how many degrees of improvement could potentially be made in the near future on EV cars.
better yet scrap it all and build national hydrogen network.
@@hagestad Its almost guaranteed that hydrogen has no future in the passenger vehicle segment. Hydrogen is less efficient than batteries and always will be (energy changes forms more times). Hydrogen would have to build out brand new expensive infrastructure while BEVs takes advantage of the electricity infrastructure we already have/need. Hydrogen vehicles are dramatically less performant than BEVs. Hydrogen vehicles are potentially more convenient (if infrastructure is built out and batteries don't make gains in charging speed) for very long trips, but less convenient in every day use as you can easily charge at home or at offices with BEVs.
I could see hydrogen playing a part in long term grid storage or large vehicle transportation like planes, boats, and semis (although some of these might also be doable with batteries), but there's really almost no benefit to pursuing hydrogen for passenger vehicles.
@@connorglacken8734 you do realize you can convert ice engines to hydrogen but for some reason that is not even mentioned most of the time?
@@connorglacken8734 no benefits? Weight.
@@hagestad True, hydrogen definitely has much higher energy density than batteries, but in the real world this alone doesn't yield much of a benefit. Hydrogen is more volume limited than weight limited and you need some pretty beefy hardware to shrink the size of the hydrogen tank down to a reasonable size for a passenger vehicle as well as the fuel cell itself to turn that hydrogen into electricity for the motor. That all adds weight. Add in the fact that batteries can actually do double duty by acting as a structural member and you can reduce the weight discrepancy even more.
Once you get larger though the weight benefit for Hydrogen starts kicking in. A larger tank stores volume more efficiently than a smaller tank so you'd probably have a smaller weight penalty per kg of hydrogen on a semi truck than a small sedan. The difference would be even bigger for big planes and especially a shipping container.
Regardless of all that, weight itself doesn't really matter. What matters depends on what you are trying to do. For a passenger vehicle the things you care about would be efficiency, performance, space, convenience, and cost of operation. Weight definitely impacts all of those things, but you can't just compare weight itself. All things being equal a heavier car would be worse in all those categories (except space, it doesn't really impact that), but all things are not equal. Since hydrogen has to go through more steps to get to the motor hydrogen vehicles are actually less efficient than BEVs. Since weight distribution is much better in a BEV than hydrogen (lower center of gravity) and batteries have much better power output BEVs perform much better than hydrogen vehicles. I would suspect that BEVs have more useable space than hydrogen due to the extra equipment and hydrogen having poor volumetric density, but there aren't many fuel cell vehicles to compare to so let's call this a draw. Hydrogen and Batteries trade blows in convenience since batteries can recharge at home, but hydrogen can refill faster for long trips, but batteries are making large improvements in this arena and hydrogen has basically no infrastructure built out and it would be a HUGE undertaking to do so. Hydrogen is and likely always will be more expensive than batteries since hydrogen has more energy conversion steps and therefore will always have lower efficiency to create and use.
Went on a longer rant than I meant to, but I just don't see how the one advantage (road trips, and BEVs might catch up in this category anyway) makes up for all the disadvantages. Again, this is for passenger vehicles. This is a different story for larger vehicles and especially grid storage uses.
I hate to be a Tesla Fan Boy, but Wow :)
It just struck me.
Tesla (maybe ) "hired" SpaceX.
Ford hired a Plumber.
Hilarious when the box of Mach E hoses was emptied on the table.
A great display of why other automotive companies are in a very distant second👍👍
what? tesla is making electric cars 100 years after porsche done it. Also porsche has way better heatpump system.
You sure of that? Tesla is lagging far behind many big car companies in many aspects. Tesla makes mediocre products at best, only their delusional fanboys can't see it, because most of you know nothing about cars. Tesla is a joke in terms of engineering compared to what Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, etc. are doing. Not to mention many of the more advanced boutique brands. Tesla's are like bread toasters of the automotive world.
And Tesla already have a newer design of cooling in the model S plaid…that one was 2019
Subtle form factor changes for packaging, but mostly same system.
So it boils down to one thing- Ford is trying to keep a profit model in place by designing an engineering nightmare that will increase the number of components that can fail and amp up service hours to keep money flowing back to dealerships after the sale.
MIND BLOWN!!! JUST WOW. I mean guys this stuff is night and day. The stuff Tesla is doing now....at this point just isn't fair. Excelent job MUNRO TEAM. And like others have said in the comments you 3 have something going here. Keep it up.
Tesla says they have more features and mileage, but Ford says "Yes, but we have more hoses and brackets!"
Do you suppose Ford, GM, and VW never watched Sandy take apart Model Y? If they did they learned alot less than I have. This is truely educational video.
why would they? they buy 20 times more expensive cars just to cut them up and beat them at their game. They do the same research on their own much faster than Sandy. There is a reason why both Porsche and Mercedes have electric cars that Tesla are not even close in terms of quality and feel. And barely better millage. Porsche have been using heatpumps for a while. Much more sophisticated ones than those in Tesla.
@@hagestad wait a second, isn’t the Plaid model S faster (by a lot), more affordable (by a lot) , more spacious, more range and get’s over the air updates do fix problems. Last I checked Porsche Tycan just had a recall for every single Tycan and they had to be dragged to the dealer, something Tesla could have done over the air (no dealer needed)
I knew when Sandy pretended to faint, it would be bad.
It's bad.
When Ford crosses a Mustang with a ESCORT, you know it's going to be bad.
@@markplott4820 you must not watch all of his videos hes actually been pretty positive on the mach e overall
@@jdog8701 - actually I am subscriber. and while Sandy likes the Mexican Mustang, I find it to be INCORRECT for the market, it's NOT a Mustang, but Muck-e is a 🐎 & buggy car.
they can't even build a 2018 model 3 in 2021.
and the Mach-e is killing Mustang sales already.
@@markplott4820 the mustang name is marketing get over it, and most people prefer the mach e (outside) look over the model y's bulbous look
The sales thing idk yet its hard to judge numbers with the chip shortage causing so many delays on new cars
@@jdog8701 Even without the chip shortage, Ford was only planning to make 50k per year. Their main issue is sourcing enough batteries.
Holy moly!!!
Holy rubber Hoses Batman.......lol
The unstated "and then there's" is the assembly line. The Tesla system appears like it can be almost entirely preassembled into a package on a separate specialty line, then brought in and integrated at one or two stations. I can't even imagine the number of supply streams to the main assembly line, stations, workers, training and opportunity for error the Mach-e system presents.
To say nothing of the wasted battery pumping all that fluid around constantly.
Ouch!!
Imagine the cars we would have today if Munro started doing this 20 years ago. I would suspect Ford and VW are not happy seeing this.
He did this 20 years ago, it just wasn't on TH-cam for the world to see, and the OEMs weren't (still are not) listening
They won't see it, easier to stick head in sand.
New generations shall profite from the lecture of a solid design engineer of 60's -70's. They made America great.
Thanks for teaching us how to engineer. We can all learn and apply this to our work.
Sometimes the best part, is no part at all. - ELON.
Shocking, Ford i hope you are watching and learning too :D
You will notice that all three were in complete agreement in their opinions on what they were saying about the Mach E.
Ford are watching (Sandy, off the Christmas card list!?)
The designers are shaking their heads.
The engineers are thinking "we told them"
The mud tier management are looking for excuses.
The executives are phoning industry media to drum up deflection articles.
(It'll be "Mach E car of the year".... Hilarious!)
Doesn't alter the fact.
If étron wasn't already taken, this would be a contender!
Is 35 a lot?
Depends on the context
35 soldiers to invade a country, no
35 hoses in a vehicle cooling system, yes
Hey, it's the 2nd best...
Dollars to live on for a year? 35 is a very small number. Bullet holes in your liver? 35 is a very large number.
70 points of potential failure?
I'd say so.
You have a great capable team Sandy. The value of this visual presentation is beyond belief. The weight, length of hoses complexity, brackets, additional, fasteners, and number of pieces and pumps and fluid. WOW. What is even more amazing was Your statement that as bad as it is, the MACH E. It is better than the rest. HOLY COW. TESLA is only 5 years ahead in design?
BEST VIDEO EVER!
There is almost 30 pounds more coolant in the mach-e not to mention all the added weight of the hose that must exist to contain that fluid. incredible.
If someone had told Sandy 20 years ago that one day he'd have an employee who was a "Thumbnail Artist", he would have thought they were crazy! By the way, the thumbnails are great!
I Really wish Cory would remember to turn on the Closed Captions on these videos. It's just one button in TH-cam Studio. You just turn it on! Please remember to do that. Thank You.
Why don't you turn it on??
@@danielstapler4315, I can't turn it on, on my side until they turn on the Closed Captions Option from their side.
@@radicalrick9587 it's on
@@mjcamp01 Thank You very much if you're the one responsible for turning it on. I love this stuff. I grew up fixing and building cars.
@@radicalrick9587 I just noticed it was on for me
Here are some Important material science differences between Tesla and Mach E coolant hoses left out from the Sandy Munro’s TH-cam video, as tweeted by Alex Lim:
I'm developing material for those coolant hose and I have some hints to share:
i) the rubber hoses in Mach-E are traditional rubber and can't be recycled easily because it's vulcanized with sulphur
ii) rubber hoses are very heavy (0.2-0.4 lb/ft, depends on diameter)
iii) rubber hoses requires high energy input to manufacture, less flexible for fitting into tight space, but material cost is low
iv) Tesla uses nylon material for tubing, which is a thermoplastic that's recyclable and more energy efficient to produce
v) nylon tubings are more flexible, very lightweight (0.06-0.08 lb/ft, depends on diameter), material cost is however 3-4 times more expensive than rubber
Of all current BEVs, Tesla is the only one implemented 100% nylon tubing, most others uses rubber hose.
Tesla nylon solution is multilayer type, inner layer can resist coolant well.
With volume, nylon cost should go down.
The rubber hose is made of synthetic rubber (like roof material), so it’s price less likely affected, but raw material price went up anyway.
twitter.com/miracleofmatl?s=21
Mr Munro and team never have I seen such exceptional bench marking 13 minutes to communicate what true good lean design looks like, feels like and means in the real world to the potential broad audience now watching Munro Live. Well done guys, you know I think you stand half a chance of providing proof positive that its Tesla's engineering finesse that is going to win out every time and maybe Wall Street will get what we all get thanks to you guys.ITS THE ENGINEERING.......well live in hope!
Keep these coming...I think this is what the ice guys do to try and catch up.....this info is worth millions....
Ford engineers must love rubber.
Ford's engineers probably hiding in the Ford Lightning Frunk right now 😄.
FUD motors engineers are addicted to Hoses.
"And this is the second best we've seen!"
That was a great laugh just with cold hard facts!
Sandy and his team rocks.
I think this makes the Mach-e look over complicated but i am unsure that its longetivity and performance are hindered by what looks complicated. The individual components are all well tried and tested and very inexpensive should they fail. My petrol mustang probably had 2000 engine parts and never had a single problem in the 4 years of ownership. All fairly straightforward fittings and components. Im happy to see how these two compare in ten years time.
So am I. Or twenty years. Or thirty.
I remember when I was starting out in my career, the wise older workers would listen to my ideas, then explain the pros, cons, and reasons to use my idea or shoot it down. The not so wise ones would tell me not to tell them anything since they had been doing their job for 20 years, and I always wanted to respond with "And you still don't know what you are doing?".
@Craig Whitley
I disagree.
You need 19 "one year engineers" (all top of their class) and one "20 year engineer" who WAS top of their class and listens to the others.
I think I just unwittingly described Elon Musk in the "Munro design meeting" anecdote?
FINALY! Sandy introduces give some credit to his associates! Much smoother, much more comprehensive much better tone to this video than most anything you’ve done before. It always bothered me that you never troubled to introduce and give credit to your associates.
Glad you liked it!
Are we watching the same videos?
Always does.
mind blowing!
A case of "seeing is believing". Also, because it's a learning curve with these new electric vehicles, Ford
should be severely admonished for not calling in outside consultants to assist especially since Tesla has
a big head start. Or, the least they could have done was to buy a Tesla, dismantle and study it, I mean it's done all the time.
Considering the TH-cam squad is helping to fund the plaid (bumper stickers) I hope we get ALL the goodies with it's teardown.
Same level of Detail with be coming!
@@MunroLive You guys should add a bit more for us with the powertrain, battery, thermal management, electronics etc. The plaid is special as it's a new record holder and we helped fund it, well I did at least, patiently waiting for my signed bumper sticker 😏
That is why Mercedes doesn't let you open the hood of the EQS! From an Engineering standpoint your opinions are all perfectly valid, complexity leads to reliability issues, more weight, etc. You do have to realize that Tesla is on version 4.0 while the Mach E is a Beta :)