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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- Inspiration comes in all shapes and sizes. But what you do with that inspiration can shape the very fabric of what you create.
In other words, do it right and make it good teehee :D
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Going through a loop-de-loop and falling off because it barely curves to the left or right is nothing but pure pain.
A true veteran right here
Yeah, which is why loop de loops are automated in Dreamcast sonic games and the adventure ones. But since most of these games are developer by the lovers of those eras and they say they "hate" automation, going through a loop de loop is a slog because you have to actually play it lol.
@@Sofia_Writes Put railing on the loop. Fixed.
@@SuperSonic68 That's such a band-aid fix though. Besides, going through the loop is just holding forward until it ends, might as well automate it and make it look cool so it's at least a little bit stimulating for the players.
Another sonic like game, Spark the electric jester 3, actually tries to solve this issue by putting short walls on the sides of loops. That way when you go into a loop, you dont have to be super percise.
I can suggest these Sonic-like devs to add "magnets" to the platforms, so the more character is moving away from the intended path, the more the camera would tilt to prevent accidental falling off the edge. You can see in 3D Sonic the camera pivots in the intended direction as you move.
As long as the magnets aren't like Sonic R's LOL
@@ShempOfficialSonic R doesn't have camera magnets tho it's just a really slow camera
As long as it's optional. I hate it when the camera goes where I don't want it to.
I notieced games like spark use guard rails instead, so you just sorta rub against a wall and slow to a more controllable speed.
This is a billion percent correct. Scripted camera angles are also a huge thing a lot of these games overlook. Having to take your thumb off the jump button to control the camera as the geometry curves/etc and your vision becomes obscured is a game design SIN.
Not only that, but I've said it and multiple replies here in the comment section that I also believe that these scripted events and automation are incredibly versatile accessibility features.
In the case of Sonic, having these huge scripted loops and grind rail sections and things like that also make it a lot easier for people with disabilities to play these games normally. I would argue that Sonic Adventure would be a terrible game to give to kids and adults with those types of disabilities because of the lack of automation.
☝️
I had to develop a technique over the years where I keep my thumb on the jump button but move the stock with my INDEX finger. I never even knew what it why I was f doing it until I stopped to think.
Alot of these games don't have the scripted camera because this is actually a big complaint of the 3D sonic era: the use of automation
For real. Full free camera control in these type of games is not as good as it sounds, the amount of times you gotta maneuver it on the worst possible moment. Reminds me to one of my levels that was nice with full free camera but once I started slapping some polished auto camera, everything felt way smoother during gameplay.
Sonic had a rough transition to 3d fangames
I will find you
The oldest 3D fangame I'm aware of, SRB2, is the only non-remake one I can think of that doesn't have this problem.
@@kfcnyancat it kinda does. It's just less frequent.
@@AtomicoMacaco In mods, but I can't think of any places in the base game. And I think if it's only sometimes or you need to be really skilled to do it, it's okay.
@@kfcnyancat 1 word (or 4), GFZ2.
I haven't really thought about how open the stages tend to be. I had my nephew try out the demo of Rollin' Rascal eariler this year, and I remember him struggling with the level design and being confused at to where to go at times. His navigational skills is something that he has claimed isn't all too great especially in games for years, so I didn't really take the openness as a potential problem for the game when I really should've.
Even though a lot of people within the sonic community wished the mainline 3D games didn't have a loy of automation (including me to some extent), there's reasons why. To give the player breathing space and for new players to get an occasional sense of speed, and to have Sonic's staple set-pieces and setting the players in the right direction. As fun as no restrictions has the potential to be, a bit of restrictions can allow for a smoother experience for newer players and players with some navigational problems.
It's interesting because for younger kids, games like Mario 64 were proven to be extremely beneficial to developing motor skills 'because' of the slight openness to the levels. But those levels were all very self-contained. You could explore every aspect, but the kids didn't feel overwhelmed or rushed.
I didn't know how to include this in the original comment, but my (first) nephew isn't a kid (he just turned 18 the other day). I just think the openness of the levels combined with his lack of experience with non-boost 3D Sonic games and his self-proclaim less than ideal navigational skills (and maybe a little bit of adhd too) led to him struggling a bit. I will also add he wasn't playing horribly, just a bit confused at times where the forward path is at times.
I'm a veteran of official Sonic games, fangames and inspired games, but I still struggled with Rascal's level design. I kept looping through the same location for way too long.
@@Gnidelthe game is good, but yes, I agree automation is super important when you want to make a game with wider appeal. There are people who get in to games later in life or are going and don't quite have the skills to do that which I take for granted. Was playing klonoa with someone and she was just straight up struggling with the game
@@ShempOfficialyes Mario 64 level are all pretty small and self contained while Sonic levels are actually pretty big, specially the boost era ones are giant
6:51 Sonic Rush 3D dev here, can confirm we're doing it just for you and nobody else 🙏🙏
:D!!!!!!!!!!
Fans talk about how open the Adventure games were, and devs take that as “I need these levels to be as wide and as open as an entire state.”
but they arent though, well atleast not in rollin rascals, i understard there are some wild sonic fan games out there, but since RR is the example used in the video, im talking about that game, yes the levels are open ended, but in no way are they open state levels, theres is a very clear intended path you have to follow, i thought ALL 3d sonic games where about trial and error, level memorization, why not apply that to RR too?
@@norekolivasI don't think I've ever played a sonic level where I've struggled to know where to go on first playthrough though.
@@meathir4921 but i do recal playing both 2d and 3d sonic games where you come to a crashing hault in the form of an empty pit or spikes that you fall into because you dont know the level layout yet (wich in of it self could be a design flaw), but i thought these games where about track memorization and trial and error.
@norekification That just isn't the same issue (well except maybe Unleashed DLC or something). Crashing into a dead end or a spike wall is usually because the player made an obvious mistake. Plus the player can... see it. A game like Generations for example has tons of signs on top of the level geometry to hone you in on where you need to go and warn you for traps.
@@norekolivas I’m not speaking on Rollin Rascal, specifically. I’m speaking more on the fan mindset of “the more open, the better.” Adventure 1, 2, Heroes and Shadow had excellent levels of openness, all while intuitively leading the player in the right direction to progress. But people see a game like Sonic Utopia, which is exclusively open-ended, and think Sonic games should be designed with that level of openness. Or another example, Sonic GT, which is much more Sonic-y, has been met with criticism from people I’ve seen playing it, saying it’s open-ended to the point of not knowing where to go at points.
I played the Rolling Rascal demo a week ago and I agree with you about the camera not doing a good job following the character throught loops and curves.
That being said I also played Spark The Electric Jester 3 which you did show in your video and that game has 0 automation throught loops and has no problems keeping up with the player so I disagree with that opinion that we need to take away players control for these segments because this game did it right.
Keep in mind that just because 1 game did it right, doesn't mean every game will get it right. Full control can be done well, as shown by your example. But not every game will function that well.
@@ShempOfficialto be fair, that could be said about virtually anything. So, let's encourage the idea that loops can be functionally improved, such as in the provided example rather than branding automation as necessarily the answer
also: loops work really well in sonic speed simulator
@@SurfRayimo the amount of automation a loop has should be relegated to difficulty options
While I don't agree that automation is the way to go, I DO agree that, in games like Sonic GT, a skilled player can simply launch themselves over most of the level design. Perhaps a potential solution would be for these games to slowly decelerate you while airborne like in Sonic Adventure. This way, speedrunners would be DISCOURAGED from making huge leaps because it would be sub-optimal to do so. Instead, they would be encouraged to take smaller shortcuts that are more in-line with the level design.
I will also say that non-scripted loops are a good fit for these types of games so long as the game features some kind of rolling mechanic. That way, running up it and rolling down it can be used as a tool for gaining speed, but only if the player is skilled enough to do so.
~Bumper Engine Dev
Thank you! I always felt that I was the only person who thought that way. I love fan games like Sonic GT, but I always end up intentionally playing sub-optimally so that I can actually interact with the level instead of launching over the whole thing. I’ll see a video of the game and click on it because I know damn well I’m not the best at those kinds of games and want to see what kind of routes or tricks I wasn’t noticing when I play, and then be disappointed when I see them launch off an early slope and soar over the whole level.
Similarly, for the majority of the different Blitz Sonic engines, I’ve always wanted to see a version that implements a Stomp instead of a Bounce, because the Bounce being able to increase height when spammed just means people don’t bother to properly scale their level properly to where they’re possible to complete without using the Bounce for every single ledge.
keeps you on the "track" per say, a racing game wouldnt be a racing game if you negated the track
I think your missing the point here. The reason he brought up automation is because games like Sonic GT deter newer players because they struggle to control Sonic and co. with their immense speed. I do think that automation is a good idea, but if you're against it, I have another. Have more guardrails along curvy paths. This way new players are able to use speed more efficiently without running off.
Also, every time I see an argument against automation or precision, and for expression and momentum, they always being up "skill". While yes, that is a part of 3D sonic gameplay, it was never entry. The original game had a very high skill ceiling, and everyone seems to remember that. People always say "it takes skill to master Sonic levels, and the level design compliments that". But people rarely every mention that Sonic 1 also had a very low skill floor as well. A casual could very easily take the middle or bottom route and still make it to the goal. But with games like Sonic GT or Rolling Rascal (funny how they made by the same person), that's completely forgotten. I as a Sonic fan can easily blast through these levels, but the common man will struggle a lot getting past the very first section. Yes, players need skill to play good in Sonic games. But they never needed to be experience to play it at all. If you never intended for anyone but Sonic fans to play the game, I can understand. But you can't say "skill issue" (I know you haven't, but others have, just hear me out), when you make it impossible for them to even learn said skill.
Jumping over everything using physics solves the problem of level design having to be designed around both low and high speed. If you can jump over a section, you can design it only around reasonably slow speed.
Launching over large chunks of the levels in most Sonic fan games doesn't take any amount of skill. Most of the time the level is designed to allow for it for some reason or the physics engine has no gravity so you end up careening yourself to space by accident.
It's funny because it's meant to emulate the feeling of "using Sonics speed to cross large gaps" which is usually done with some kind of combination of planning and player input, but instead is something that just happens by holding forward and thus having the polar opposite effect of automation.
i think this video is right, but over looks the things "Rolling Rascal" and "Spark 3" does to guild the player. if you look around, it's really designed to be a hallway that expanded to be open world, but still a hallway. but i do think people should spend time easing them into the openness, because not everyone is experienced in in-game mapping and directions. overall, good message.
I respect this video mainly for the bravery of it. These types of games tend to attract some of the worst parts of the Sonic fanbase whose behavior often goes unchallenged.
Sonic gt is the perfect example of having a massive level and not knowing where to go unless you know what you’re doing.
i get what you mean honestly, i will say though spark 3 has become my favorite platformer because at the start even with my high speed platforming knowledge growing up with sonic, you couldnt just fly through the stage especially not cleanly. Spark 3 genuinely rewarded the player for customization and stage knowledge and replay ability. The stage design, final stage, and difficulty increase over time is my favorite part about it. It's the momentum based fast reaction complex linear gameplay i want from sonic team but ofc with their own finish on it that makes it so memorable. I can say so many more good things about spark 3, it genuinely was incredible playing it and anyone enjoying momentum sonic gameplay should for sure play it
Spanking 3 was odd for me at first I loved ot but than I tried speedrunning the levels and I kept getting clipped by geometry and the design can be cluttered too cuz its so wide. Its hard to explanada
@@elibonham4388 that's fair, i just usually didnt get clipped from my playthroughs, this is not me disregarding you btw, but the movement, no speed cap, abilities, and increase in difficulty allowing you to do whatever you want at a certain skill floor is so fucking sick to me
I think what makes or breaks level design in games like GT, and I see this in a lot of fangames, is the omission of any air drag or slow down. Almost all official games have a form of it to provide some balance to the ludicrous speeds you could be getting, as in, you could have a lot of vertical speed but little horizontal speed and vice versa. Lack there of = a lot of both vertical and horizontal speed, which in term means with a good enough jump you can skip a lot of the level design, removing any sort of meaningful player engagement and thought with how you approach the level. Having air drag slow you down puts you in a position to better think of what you’ll do, and encourages you to learn the intended level design to get a better time
for loops and things alike, I think a method similar to Speed Sim’s magnetic loops would work. When you go around a loop or other gimmick like it, your speed will try to stick to the loop’s path and get you in the middle to fall off harder, whilst still maintaining some level of control
This is precisely my issue with some Sonic fangames, especially Sonic Utopia where a single spindash off a ramp allows Sonic to soar half a mile's worth of ground before touching the ground again. This also happened to a lesser degree in SRB2 and GT, so I'm pleased to see that Rascal is a bit heavier than Sonic was in GT.
That freedom is a lot of the fun of GT though: you can find ways to earn speed to turn it into a big jump.
I feel like it needed some mode pushing you to stick to specific routes that'd otherwise be suboptimal though, like collect X special rings that show up on this route and reach the goal.
2:15 I respectfully disagree. When you have the option to go as fast as you want to, it's on you to regulate your speed until you can navigate the level properly. It adds more depth to the game and a higher skill ceiling for those who really want to test their limits. That is, if the controls are good enough to facilitate it, which a lot of 3D Sonic games are kinda janky in that department, hence they use automation to hide the janky controls. Spark The Electric Jester 3 literally makes all the things presented in your video moot.
Like, for example if a racing game was too fast, would you advocate for automating taking turns or braking? Of course not, that would only make the gameplay more shallow. Same principle here, even if it's a platformer. Since you don't have a "instant top speed" boost button, it's up to you to gather that speed using the level and regulating said speed while navigating it.
As for levels being too open or too linear, it's up to the level design to have a good sense of direction. Also linearity does not equal bad, you can have a linear level but with tons of options on how you can approach it and get around its obstacles. Spark 3, again, does this.
6:19 Also you're implying every single first time player can do that, when only after learning the game mechanics, game design and routing can you do that but you advocate automation that scripts in the exact same pathway, in the exact same way, regardless of the player's skill, just so you can not break it? How is that better? To have fun? That is not fun to me... I'd rather have that than Sonic Unleashed's scripted moments. And I love Sonic Unleashed.
This video is sending me mixed signals...
it's almost as if the guy is just trying to spread hate to get views
No, he's right but there should definitely be some sort of "speed cap" option in games that give you a lot of movement freedom
@@Bombastic_daioh elaborate
@@ethanwayne6973 Spark 3 has a speed cap, at least when not using level elements. You can't go faster than a Jester charge on a flat surface and even speed boosters don't add to your speed only put you up to a Jester charge speed.
Only way to get more speed is using slopes, Magnet dashes, Energy Dashes and Jester swipes, all of which require you to interact with the level in some capacity. Not to mention, Spark 3 has air drag compared to Spark 2, albeit not overbearingly so.
I think this is really good design and really shows LakeFeperd learning a lot from Spark 2.
@@MariusUrucu Now I know why Spark 3 felt like it controlled so tightly
others have commented this but Spark 3 kinda does everything right while still having little to no automation and large, "open" levels that still have a very clear direction. plus, skipping huge chunks of levels is only earned when you really start learning the game and you're expected to do that by the time you try to diamond rank the spark 2 stages
This video changed my life. Trisha came home. Everything is good now that redstone roxanne is here. Please like this comment if you're queer or if french toast is rad
Listen, toast is... Yeah.
No
@@bluudevil4483 You seem like you'd be fun at parties
@@Dylightful
You don't lmfao
@@TheRealityWarper08 I have a lot of fun at parties personally
I wish people make Kirby fan games he has better power ups.
Hell, the F no. I could not hate automation more. That shit sucks so much
I think that you said an absolute true and you are right to the core.
Sonic is not only running boi, he's more like 2000s video clip (watch californication) so there's always need to be a director and cameraman on the shoulder to get through the level correctly. That what made Sonic Adventure and some sequels so good.
There could be great use of open-wo/zones if you can actually show the guy the travelling aspect - you are crossing the big level, show that you started on one layout, then show something that changes on the way - start in town, continue in ruins, jungle, lonely bits, then he travels in a new town, that got some different aspects
You finally nailed the exact thing as to why I always find these fan games off putting, but I never managed to put it into words before.
What you say in this video is incredibly true, as much as Sonic fans complain about the mainline games, at least they are finished. So many 3D fan games are dropped and abandoned either because the creator lost the motivation to continue or what I personally think happens, they get stuck designing levels so big and open with so many ways to move around them, that it forces all of their creativity in a negative way, designing highly complex levels must be why so many fan games don't really go beyond 2 or 3 levels, as much as we shit talk green hill we have to remember most of the fan games that design completely new zones end up having a small amount of stages.
I don't want to sound like a hater to the fan works nor that I'm defending Sega 'laziness' but we gotta put into perspective that most fans want things in a very specific way, but will not go on detail about why and how when they ask for it. Some do make large essays about why they want something but when it comes to actually coding all of that in, working out the narrative and making it fit within canon, the task becomes much harder. Everyone wants the freedom fighters back, but they never really give a good answer as to why and more importantly how that would be done, I like uncle chuck but how the fuck can we introduce him currently after so many years without a major reboot of the series? Plus character development takes time, Archie fans want the freedom fighters back but we got to remember it took YEARS for them to build up to the standard they are hold now, it took so long for Sally to become good in the Archie run in comparison to the other freedom that it surprises me, Current fans that don't like the IDW run mostly complain but the run is still very young in comparison to the Archie run, so of course it wouldn't feel as 'Good' in their eyes because it still has to build up more the characters, people act like Archie wasn't inconsistent with its tone or characterization of the cast when there are multiple instances of that happening, not to mention the writers now have to work around mandates given by Sega because of what happened in Archie without them (I just realized this became more about the comics than the fan games, my sorry as can't stay in one singular topic at a time goddamn)
(I currently began to study program development for a few months now and even I don't know how to perfectly code a website, even my teacher can forget stuff or not see the error in one line of code)
I disagree about the 3d games being finished, but an undeniable fact is that sonic team know the workarounds that this video showed very well
The finished 3D fan games exist, like Robo Blast 2, Encore, GT and Omens.
@@Gnidel yes, but a much large amount are never finished
I'll be excited if you made sonic fangame you sound wise about it imo
They meant that every 3d sonic game is rushed @@Bombastic_daioh
So I haven't had this problem as much with spark 2 or 3 as much as I did with rollin rascal. Spark has stuff on the floor that tells me the direction to go so i don't get lost or confused. Rollin' has more of an over correction where people were so mad about being forced on automation that went so far extreme in the other direction. I do think its weird that they keep trying to combine unleashed with adventure style which has its pros and cons in itself
Perfect timing! Just finished work, and me and my partner really enjoyed this video. It's especially interesting seeing what Sonic games are like for newcomers, as it helps you appreciate the design and direction they went for, and how it works from a first-impressions view.
It's kind of the same deal as the air drag and spindash of Frontiers update 2. Really fun to break the game with it, exceedingly difficult to design around it. Spark 2 & 3 are great games tho
I feel like you misunderstand the reason for these choices, and the appeal of Sonic's original gameplay concepts as a whole. The reason for these more open-ended levels is to actually capture the appeal of Sonic's gameplay as a whole, to actually take what 2D sonic did right and finally convert it to 3D - something SEGA has never, *ever* done, completely abandoning everything that made the 2D games so good with adventure and only straying further from there. People want the thrill of finding out how to beat the level faster entirely by navigating the environment around them in clever ways, instead of being tunneled through a single linear path - in other words, people want to be *rewarded* for being creative, rather than *punished* for it.
In the case of, for example, loops specifically, the idea is that they're something of a speed cap, something to force the player to learn the importance of speed, because without it they won't be able to get past the loop - *and* it's an opportunity to gain even more speed when coming out the other side. It's a perfect combination of both style and substance, something Adventure disregarded entirely.
The problem you're talking about with people getting lost is a very real problem, but adding more automation is the wrong solution in every possible way, for it completely abandons the fun and uniqueness of Sonic. I suggest you watch "The Stagnation of 3D Sonic Gameplay" by TelekinesticMan for a better explanation of my viewpoints than I can give. It probably won't completely change your opinion, but I hope it gives you knowledge of a different perspective and something to think about.
BASED
6:20 This was my exact problem with Spark 2. That's something that just always rubs me the wrong way, you barely have to interact with the level design, it's so easy to just skip so much of it, even by accident. That's the thing about those 3D fangames that try to adapt the Genesis games. They do give you freedom of movement and physics that the classics did, but the classics never let you skip major parts so easily
The lack of automation was exactly what I liked about Rascal when I was playing it. It was a specific point that I preferred to how Sonic games handle it.
My main critique of this video is talking about the lack of automation as a flaw and suggesting they do it more without acknowledging the fact that this issue is stemmed from automation being so infamous with Sonic fans due to how much of it there is in the actual games.
People are likely to be resistant to the advice if you don't also point out that it's infamous and why, and maybe even clarify that automation being good isn't a dismissal of it also being bad at times, and that there should be carefully decided amounts of it depending on the scenario.
Exactly. These fan games are doing the opposite of what Sega is doing and giving control to the player instead of automating everything and here is this guy asking for that
@@inktendo And I agree with him. But I can understand why many won’t. And I just think the video could benefit from acknowledging that to reach a middle ground.
They don't even try to be like a Sonic game, no Sonic game feels like the "inspired" fangames. Spark is pretty much it's own thing
The point of these games is to give fans the freedom and control they want, but can't get from official Sonic games.
So it's pretty funny to hear someone look at these Sonic fan/inspired games and say they should be more restrictive.
Also, the staleness of gameplay highly depends on how much interest/enjoyment a person was getting out of a genre in the first place.
One person will get bored of a game within the first hour, while another will be on their 32nd playthrough.
You're right ! When I saw Rollin rascals i was really excited, but when I played it I found that the lacks of guidance really affected my experience.
I even found myself running full speed and being lost on the second level turning around despite thinking I was on the good way. Same for the multiplayer map... It a little bit too easy to get lost.
To be fair, the use of needed slight automation and the struggle of non-experienced "Sonic jank" players is simply just a natural byproduct of the franchise's design philosophy. By nature a super fast character can only be as controllable as the reactionary limits of a human paired with the coding fidelity of a program allow it (so how fast can a person react to a level obstacle and how easy can I phase through a wall in game). The very first Sonic game established the 3 paths system, in tandam with speed being a reward for knowing how to properly navigate this 3-path system, as opposed to just giving you the speed without the effort. Remember the very reason for Sonic's speed (besides a marketing ploy for the Genesis) was based on gamers/developers completing World 1-1 of the first Super Mario game as fast as possible due to dying so much in that game without a save system. In other words Sonic's core gameplay concept was quite literally based on speed running. Something that wouldn't necessarily be instinctual in most casual gamers and by extension non-Sonic fans. With this in mind it makes sense that Sonic games and Sonic fan games alike are naturally janky and need this automation. Besides the aforementioned human reaction/code fidelity problem, Sonic as a concept is essentially based on doing what you're not supposed to do in a level, cheesing and exploiting the level. You're trying to make a breakable concept into something not breakable, if that makes sense.
Also with this in mind to put in layman's terms, Sonic as a concept is unironically the "git gud" meme taken to its logical extreme.
I think a lot of these issues could be solved the same way some kart racers do: lots of sign posting. Theres a lot of organic ways to just have to level just say "go this way" without it being all up in your face about it.
I also think experimenting with various ways to turn specifically would help these games a lot. Sonic being able to drift was one of Unleashed/Generations greatest subtle additions in how it sort of takes away control but actually gives the player more in how tightly turns can be made even at high speeds. I believe these kind of games would benefit greatly from a similar concept if not the same thing
I honestly agree, and I know that my enthusiasm with Rollin' Rascal, despite enjoying it, did decrease the more I got lost in the second level. I normally don't have this problem with Sonic games but I did run into it with Spark the Electric Jester (3, a bit of 1 as well).
Coming as someone who's spent time seeing the mindset of those closer to the Sonic community, it's very ironic to hear someone talk about the benefits of automation when most of the people making these games really detest the automation in 3D Sonic games. I understand what they're going for, and a lot of times it does work, but I hate feeling lost in a genre that should be easier for me to get into with a couple of 3D sonic games under my belt.
Great video with a lot of interesting points, hope this sparks a good conversation!
What matters is if the player is having fun even if they don't know where they're going; the level design and the controls should incentivize the player to simply enjoy the feeling of movement in and of itself. That's what captures the true essence of Sonic; being a hyperactive nomad that has fun just by going fast.
If thats the case penny's big break away matches up perfectly. Penny is just so much fun to control and go fast with.
@@Bombastic_daioh
Nah that sounds like a skill issue.
Glad you dont design games
Cant comment on Penny, but Unleashed doesn't have the best controls@@Bombastic_daioh
@@Bombastic_daiohalso cringe, stop capping 💀
A game where I did really enjoy to be able to skip parts of the levels by building up speed is Demon Turf: Neon Splash. The game is really fun to control, especially when you try to beat the stages as fast as possible.
I have come to agree somewhat more about the whole automation thing with the loop-de-loops and whatnot. I played Sonic Utopia again and couldn’t get over how frustrating it was trying to maneuver through the loops properly at a higher speed without flinging out at the slightest tilt of the analog stick and having to go back and try again. However, I still like the idea of having more control over those obstacles and don’t necessarily think that all control should be taken away at all times, especially if the game takes a more open level design approach. So, I feel like the automation should have levels to it.
Essentially, If you’re going through a loop slowly, then the game lets you have full control over that loop, as the loops aren’t too difficult to maneuver through while going at a slower speed. If you’re going at a moderate speed, then the game could create a sort of “on-rails” path for Sonic to follow so that you don’t go flying off the loop at the slightest tilt of the joystick, but it doesn’t put you in a full auto run state. That way you still have some level of control over Sonic and must maintain your speed while running through the loop in order to complete it. Kinda like how in the classic games, you don’t need to change direction at the height of the loop in order to pass through it properly. And lastly, if you’re going through the loop at a high speed, then it becomes fully automated, complete with cool camera angles and whatnot. That way, not only will you pass through the loop at that high speed with ease, but you’ll also be rewarded for maintaining a high speed by being given a bit of cool spectacle.
I think that having large open levels can still work, so long as the player is eased into it, with one or two (almost)entirely linear levels at the start of the game, to help teach them the controls and movement.
Agreed. Another commenter mentioned Sonic Dream Team, which is a really good example of how to ease the players into this concept.
I'm developing a Sonic fan game (Sonic Colors Demastered, shameless plug but please check it out!) and while it's a little different since it's a 2D boost game instead of 3D, it's definitely taught me that in any form of action game, speed and control are two opposing forces. The faster a character moves, the more difficult it becomes to control them properly, whether that be in 2D or 3D. I'm a huge fan of the boost style Sonic games, ESPECIALLY Generations, and think the reason they work is because unlike other platforming games that focus more on precision, like Mario, the game feels more designed around the player's reflexes and "blink and you miss it" opportunities to grab items, attack enemies, or snap Sonic onto an alternate path. You don't have to move precisely because the game has very "hallway"-esque level design and uses both level geometry and automation to keep you on track, but you're constantly presented with hazards and platforming challenges while on this linear path so it still feels exciting. Rooftop Run Modern is such a fun level and a majority of it just has you move straight forward!
I noticed that even in my fangame the level design gradually had to become increasingly straight to accommodate Sonic's sense of speed. Whenever I want the player to do more traditional platforming, I have to design sections of the level that intentionally force them to slow down. I ultimately ended up switching between these super linear boosting sections and slower, more methodical platforming sections to give the levels a nice sense of "push and pull" and ensure they didn't get boring from relying on one style too much. Fun fact, but I'm pretty sure this exact reason is why a lot of the boost games are a mix of 2D and 3D. Having 2D sections are another way to force the player to slow down and break up level pacing so they're not just running forward really fast the whole time.
I think a lot of Sonic fans have complained about linearity and automation for years and it's not all unwarranted (looking at you Sonic Forces) but it's definitely caused a lot of devs to take that mentality to heart and try to design games without any at all, which I'm not sure is the right approach. The issue you mentioned about players being able to build speed and fly through stages without doing any actual platforming is just one such symptom of that. I think in small doses, linearity and automation is helpful for keeping levels directed and mitigating player confusion while still retaining a sense of speed, spectacle, and fun.
My biggest problem with sonic inspired games like rollin rascal and what not is that they feel so empty. Like sure they’re meant to be played at “high speed” but I kinda feel like that gameplay gets stale like nothing really going on besides running through a zone there’s no kinda exploration like the sonic adventure games. These new games are like race tracks and it shows when you slow down that it’s just a lot of space with nothing really to do in them.
6:09
I *cannot* stand how easy and deliberately intended it is to just skip everything in 3D indie platformers today. Chiefly 3D Sonic games, but it's a lot of them.
Skips should not be the alpha and omega of skill expression in a video game and doing so should be hard. Like CONSIDERABLY difficult. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of the genre and is borderline passive play because of how extremely easy and inconsequential it is. But everyone wants a "speedrunner" game that's Twitter gifable making so many of these just feel empty and homogenized.
As an upcoming game dev who wants to make a "Sonic-Like", this makes sense! Thanks for the advice
Of course! Really means a lot to me to see a developer consider my videos advice! I apprecaite that!
I just wish 3D sonic actually played like jet set radio/bomb rush cyberfunk with some extra stuff. Like a cool hub area to run around, grind, explore, find collectables, talk to people maybe do little races. And then also have race course levels as well. I played a lot of 3D sonic as a kid definitely had fun, but I don't see myself wanting to revist any of these games honestly, its just been the same gameplay FOREVER
I was excited when I saw games like Spark (referring to the 3D ones) but like you said it seems most people's goal is to skip all the interesting level design which is cool, but I think that doesn't really make the game any better than sonic really
Then you have Spark the Electric Jester 3, casually dropping the greatest 3D Sonic game of all time, lol.
I still remember the time i got a wr in rollin rascal, then i discovered that there is some control taken from you in some steep slopes, overall i think they managed it very well
Finally, somebody FUCKING SAID IT! I'm so sick of this open zone style and the lack of speed caps in these games
Then play mario
@@bluudevil4483 sonic should be designed with the intention of being played in the as fast as you can with the basic intended path + possible intentional and unintentional shortcuts. the "fly off into the sky to skip a minute of the level" thing that 3d fan games do for some reason is literally just negating all of the fun obstacle and momentum filled level design that the player could have been playing instead
You know, Sonic fans are always complaining about "too much automation" and how the new games are "basically a long string of QTE's". I don't agree with this mentality, and this video is perfect at showcasing why I feel that way. Some automation is required to make the game more friendly to newcomers. This isn't 2D anymore, it's a lot harder to control your movement with precision. SEGA understood that from the start.
This is the problem with sonic frontiers speed hacks like homing dash, ppl just want to fly through level design and say that's fun
Well it does seem pretty fun lol
See that's a bit different since it's primarily used for Speedrunning. And to be fair, it is kinda fun LOL It's primarily a glitch, so not a mechanic specifically developed for skipping everything
@@ShempOfficial plus it takes a bit of skill to not just launch yourself into a wall or pit in cyberspace
Idon't know why people on the comments are so against this, but i agree about having some amounts of automation in these fan games more. One of the things I've grown tired of seeing the most of these 3D Sonic fan games were them trying to be too open with their level design and try to be the Anti-Boost formula equivalent to the official mainline titles. O would get trying to have momentum be more of a focus but it's kinda telling when a lot of these fans try to seem to make it more of a replacement to the ability to boosting instead of having a way to supplement it. And with how many of them seem to have this common idea of making them so open to where it provides to much opportunities to skip past large portions of it, it really does make it more of a crutch that goes against what they expect Sonic Games to be.
Even spark 3 was too open in was and the game is too easy
I dunno, Penny's Big Breakaway works just fine without any automation, when you've got the yo yo gimmick mastered.
See, you said it works fine when you "master" a mechanic. If it doesn't work fine for the general player without having to master a certain mechanic, then that's a big issue. Not saying it's bad. I haven't had a chance to play that one.
This is the first Sonic video I've seen advocate for more automation and general limitations on player movement! I haven't played nearly enough Sonic to judge, but it's interesting!
In my eyes, a lot of these automated segments are also very important as an accessibility feature.
God, thank you, you managed to put into words what annoys me about so many of these games. Even watching videos and being like, but you're skipping all the cool tricky bits just so you can fly through the sky at top speed. I feel like the only 3D Sonic fangame that gets any of this right is SRB2 and that's more than anything because it's so heavily based on the Genesis games that even at its fastest you're not just flying away.
IMO - It all comes down to style. Automation is part of that. Can help players and accentuate the story/characters.
Glad to see this perspective I've been having is catching on in the video discussion space.
Glad to see it's not just me being overwhelmed with absolutely massive areas with close to no direction and annoyed by the intentional junk controls.
Not having tried Rollin' Rascal or more recent 3D Sonic-inspired games, but having played almost every major game in the Sonic series, I'm pretty sure this "open-zone, full control" tendency is caused by the way too restricted and linear design of recent Sonic games, which only Frontiers has started to change. People often overlook how good Unleashed was, because while linear in its own way, the freedom was in the many optional routes and the feeling of "real" speed during 3D boost sections. You still had two or three set routes even there, but they felt fluid and dynamic, and the choice on which to take was yours in the exact moment you saw them. Sonic's always been about speed and reflexes, and that made you *feel* it.
When I first saw the development of Sonic fan games and seeing their... open nature, I wasn't too worried as these stages were clearly meant for testing, but as the development continued and I saw runs through more finished levels where large portion were just jumped over or bypassed and having no idea what direction was "forward" I was more concerned. Like, why go through the effort of making any set-pieces or landmarks if the players all just want to avoid them as much as possible anyway for speed?
I would like to see a Sonic game where Sonic was in more closed in or vertical areas that required his speed and physics to navigate and get to higher platforms or move from room to room. My first thought of an example would be like Ice Cap from Sonic Adventure, but better. Like say, make it so Sonic's spin direction influenced his direction when hitting a wall or floor. A simple example would be to have him jump and hit a wall while spinning towards it and getting extra height from it, like when a spinning rubber ball hits a surface. Then he can us that extra height to get over walls that are just a bit taller than his normal jump height.
These don't sound like automation issues to me, they just sound like game and level design issues.
The most obvious answer for the "levels are too open" issue is that large levels just need good design. I haven't played Rollin' Rascal, but I think Sonic Utopia is a good example. It's very open, yes, but the map is basically a line with 3 big "rooms" along the way. Sure, you can get lost in those big areas sometimes, but overall the world does a great job of subtly guiding you toward the next area.
Big levels need good design and good signposting. And of course a first-time player is going to get lost - they've never played the level before.
The second issue of "beginner players find it too hard to control" is also...I don't want to sound rude, but that's sort of a skill issue. Sonic 1's entire philosophy was "what if there was a game that got better the more you played it." A lot of good Sonic games are based on the idea of mastery. If you've never played a Sonic game, of course you aren't going to be blasting through levels on the first try. The point of these kinds of games is learning the mechanics and the levels and mastering them with time. Automation strips all of that away - every player has the same experience regardless of skill.
And while I agree on terms of accessibility, I don't think every Sonic-like needs to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and certainly not fan games that are trying to capture specific experiences and not large general audiences. Many of these issues are solved by good design - levels should be designed so that the more beginner paths are slower, but relatively easy to get through.
I think I could agree a bit more if this video was advocating for automation for style or setpieces, but as a solution in place of good design? I don't think so.
There just isn't enough Sonic smh
Bro dab me up
I'll admit that I get confused sometimes with Rollin Rascal and Sonic GT, but it makes the game more intriguing to me! I like games where you have to "try, try, again" to be able to get them.
Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown has some trials that follow this philosophy. You have to do them over and over again to be able to master them before you can beat them.
This is a great video, this one thing I've been asking for a while.
there's also the spectacle problem
part of the reason why Cyberspace in Frontiers was average at best is because it lacks the spectacle of Generations or even Forces
Spectacle is half the reason Unleashed's day stages are the best boost stages ever
Spark The Eletric Jester 3 is Great
Personally, I always felt the ideal level design for 3D sonic is something that's right on the border between linear and open. I imagine something almost like a set of particularly wide race-tracks: levels that are still plenty open for you to move around in, but at the same time they still have a very clear sense of direction going from point A to point B (or vice versa, ideally to me you can traverse the levels both ways but nothing more). When sonic levels are too open, it's way too much to design for. Like how do you design a level element when a player can approach it from literally any direction? Limiting that to just 2 directions would be the perfect middle-ground, cause it'd still be more open than most sonic games where you only go forward.
Also in terms of automation being needed for newer players, I feel like the most obvious fix for this is to just make levels without so many bottomless pits. Back in the adventure days it made sense levels were designed that way, they literally didn't have the resources to do it any other way. But now we could absolutely do the whole "layered level" thing that the classic games did, where the top route is the fastest one, but failing a jump drops you to a lower route that's much easier but also much slower. Most 3D sonic games and fan games are designed with just the single route, and if you fall off you're dead and sent back to the last checkpoint.
6:25 to add to the comparison, it’s like watching the behind-the-scenes and only focusing on one specific extra
Sometimes it's kind of nice that these games truly let you have full control over your character and they don't take that away, but I can see how automation can be useful for certain parts.
I’m going to be honest, this isn’t what I thought this video would be about.
My biggest problem with these sonic inspired games is this “I want to play as Sonic”.
I feel like the best game to due a 3D Sonic-styled game HAS to be SRB2, but it IS more of a 2D-Sonic-inspired 3D game. I just want someone to make that, but on Steam with original assets and more levels, with Workshop support.
I almost died of laughter; amazing and well detailed vid as always :D
Thank you Lozzy!!!!!
The problem you pointed out in this video is the same problem a lot of fan-games and mods have…
They are geared towards a specific kind of player, causing the difficulty to be artificially inflated without intention.
We might complain about handholding, but it is needed to a certain degree. Otherwise you run the risk of making your project inaccessible to a wider audience.
If Richie Rogers adds more automation, I want it to be an option rather than it being forced, becuase personally when control is taken away it feels like I’m ‘losing’ some of the game that I should have played.
I think a little bit of jank and a little bit of getting lost _can be_ charming, but too much is likely to detract from the enjoyment of the game.
Automating parts of levels for spectacle and making levels more linear definitely helps with these issues.
This happens for every game that's specialized in a genre.
Ask a person who has never played an fps game in his life to play Valorant. Forget winning a match, they will probably get motion sick from just playing for 2 minutes.
This has more to do with many of the newer generations having grown up with zero platformer experience than anything else.
These Games' levels are always really empty, especially as far as hazards/enemies go and they always go overboard with movement. You jump once on a ramp and you skip half of the level.
Most sonic like games are too easy which u cant say about with sonic in a lot of his games
games like Sonic are designed with constant replays in mind, over the course of countless runs a two-second “mini cutscene” will turn into an hour spent watching the same thing. every gameplay element should be actually meaningful, not just because meaningful mechanics are fun but so that it isn’t a literal waste of time. automated spectacles may be cool the first or 5th time, but after the 20th run they become intolerable, and make level replays feel punishing.
controls can be part of a game’s challenge, this should especially apply to platformers where every element serves to challenge the player’s core movement. for an example like Getting Over It, the entire point is to overcome and master it’s cumbersome controls, and people enjoy it a ton, despite being held fully responsible and disproportionately punished for their mistakes. that challenge literally gives the game it’s meaning, it’s the reason that completing it is so gratifying.
there’s meaning to be found in controls that are designed for more than just a means of ‘accessing content’, and there’s a poorly defined idea here on what would be considered skillful in the context of 3D Sonic controls. since they seem to be described like ‘Jank that was never fixed’, as if throughout those 26 years since Adventure, across countless fans and members of Sonic Team, they’ve never had enough of an issue with this formula to ‘fix’ it?
(describing fan games as “janky” is really demeaning BTW)
while the point of guidance isn’t inherently wrong, you fail to see why these levels are open to begin with, and push for the other extreme. the more choices a player is presented with, and the more a level does to obfuscate which choice is “the right one”, the more it becomes for the player to decide for themselves which paths they feel are right to take.
“skips” enhance this, as they go beyond the boundaries of what a level outright presents to you and become a reward for _engaging_ with the level design, by learning it’s layout across multiple runs. they require knowledge to find, along with risk-taking and mechanical skill to pull off. the depth then comes from figuring out what combination of paths / skips are the best to take, they become routes for the player to continually optimize, and they give these games tons of longevity.
whether you enjoy this style of Sonic gameplay is a preference, and there are many other 3D Sonic games to play besides these.
a huge reason for why game design discussion in the Sonic fandom has become centered around difficulty and “engaging level design”, is because a ton of people have become seasoned players, who over the course of multiple Sonic games have developed the skills to breeze through games like Forces or Frontiers (pre-TFH) on their first playthrough. that lack of challenge and skillful play leads to these games feeling empty and unengaging for them.
games don’t exist in a vacuum, they exist within context, and they can exist to serve specific niches. in the case of Rollin’ Rascal and similar games, they exist to appeal to sections of hardcore Sonic fans that can’t find meaningful outlets for skill expression in recent titles.
critiques like this video never take into account players like these, who literally cannot find _many_ other recent 3D platformers like Sonic that actually emphasize skill at their core.
Finally, someone who actually knows how a game works and isn't biased for blurry memories, TH-cam opinions, lack of self thinking and "muh players agency" arguments without an actual point that ignores level design and player motivation
yes. the biggest thing being the speed cap. almost every single sonic fan game has this issue. sonic flys like hes on the moon and you can skip so much. official sonic games is more grounded. you actually stick to the level design more. he doesn't weigh the same as a feather .
One thing that always annoyed me to no end in 3D Sonic fan games is the floatiness to such ridiculous extent that once you fling yourself upwards off a platform, you can skip SO much of any level that it makes you feel like you didn't do much effort. Like, yeah, there's crazy speed, there's the momentum that most of these devs are aware of, but they often forget that weight is also an important part in Sonic games.
When Sonic comes to mind, your first thought is running at high speeds. Not flinging myself in the air every time I find a ramp and skipping an entire stage with little to no effort.
As for the topic on *Open World*... I sometimes feel like Sonic fans haven't played that many Super Hero Open World games, if they played any at all.
To this very day, I will forever stand with my opinion that games like Sunset Overdrive and Prototype, are perfect blueprints to make an open world Sonic game that actually works. *Especially* Prototype.
I can't say I quite believe it's the lack of guidance that's the issue in attempting to make an open world Sonic game, but how the fanbase is so hellbent on making *linear* more open.
An open world game is supposed to be a *single map* with varied locations where missions could take place in, *not* a series of levels that just so happen to have a more open ended level design.
tl;dr, 3D Sonic fan games are so floaty, they're too easy and Sonic fans themselves don't understand how open world is actually supposed to work.
Either way, video gud. Sub earned.
I think rollin rascal problem is more so a problem with level design that causes player to get lost. Also what exactly were your friends having issues with because rollin rascal throws a lot of mechanics at the player that can be really overwhelming and confusing.
This isn't relatively relevant but there's a cool easter egg on this channel's banner if you're using TH-cam on a console.
Edit but Shemp is hot.
Easy: they’re lacking the lovable blue rat
The algorithm blessed me with a gem. Lookin' sharp btw. I can tell you love purple
I haven't messed with any of the 3D fan games, but yes they Should have guard rails so you dont fall off. From what I've seen, the original games have the creativity that the Sonic games usually lack for gameplay, and as long as they aren't messes like Omen they'll be in a good place. The open world gimmick is the most played out thing ever, and should go for an Adventure angle where stages have actual level design.
I remember Modern vs Classic Sonic discourse and automation was a huge talking point to point out how inferior 3D Sonic is. However automation has existed since the S-tubes in Green Hill Zone. Sonic 2 has S tubes, and even introduced speed boosters in chemical plant zone. Sonic 3, with the best received water level, Hydrocity Zone contains a bunch of boosters and moments where you're holding right to watch Sonic to go fast. Sure, you can roll, stop, or jump out of it but no one does that. I think people need to take a step back and be aware of how much in Sonic's core dna is spectacle and automation.
Finally someone talking about this, i really don't know when the fanbase became so poisoned with the so called "fast paced momentum-based gameplay" when those barely existed in any game to the *extent fangames make it to be* or what sonic team ended up putting in frontiers after the spindash implementation. The game did infact had some aspect of **earned speed** if we can call that, that may have been lost with the increasingly ammount of speed cap on the moveset put in the later games, but All mainline 3D games was always some linear stage with incredible visual spectacles and some sort of exploration, with some rare moments where an experienced players could see an skip by using momentum like in Heroes where you could rocket accel a portion of a triangle jump section, or the slope skip in Adventure 1 at the start of Emerald Coast. And up until Sonic Forces, the exploration was present in the sense where you just stop for a bit, backtrack or run around an open area somewhere to find a secret, be that a life box, a medal, a red ring, an upgrade or a whole alternate path.
**Never we had an gameplay where momentum was the core to the point of skipping entire level sections, if wasn't a glitch, and that was part of the experience that makes all of those levels memorable**
Now, if Sonic-inspired games want that to be their core gameplay, you do whatever, that may or not be for the best.
I angrily disagree. Going through a loop manually is a skill, and it's extremely satisfying to go through one in utopia, gt. Yes, you can make things more accessible for people who get motion sickness from this kind of stuff, but I would not strip manual control away from the player in the sake of it
Also, you do look good in a dress
But automation isnt bad, sometimes it's impossible to design the things you want without it. A cutscene is something you cannot influence and is there to do something without player input. You can mix non player input and player input lin celeste's dash. You dash, you're inactionable for a sec, then you regain action. This both limits your possible inputs pminutes, but also adds a nee challenge. There are plenty of types of inaction. The inaction you suggest is the cutscene variant, which is fine, but misguided. The problem you face is motion sickness on slopes and a major difficulty curve. However if a game is explicitly designed to have these as central mechanics, and the game is still fun, then idk. If the game interacts with slopes in a non conventional platformer way then the solutions are infinite
Spark the electric jester 3 is the best Sonic games I’ve played and those maps are big
Running Richard is huge hiwever i dont think that there is enough platforming to justify its size
Yeah I really hope Romanian Reily gets some more love before the final build!
Sonic After The Sequel music :)
:D
There's a really good video by Architect of Games where he discusses the design of Sonic games and basically stumbles onto why automation was put into them in the first place. They narrow focus, act as a catch up for players who are slowing down (so that if you slow down you aren't punished for like... the next minute of gameplay) and avoid jank, on top of the obvious spectacle. They also just give the player time to breathe, which is something that's weirdly underrated.
i get this 100%, people always try to emulate the classic games but never realise those big jumps and bouncing off of enemies is almost never at top speed, its what stops you from simply skipping the whole level. hell even outside of fangames this is a problem. while flying off of objects with all your speed intact, avoiding item challenges is fun and all, sonic frontiers really puts the problem of the lack of air drag most fangames have into perspective. theres simply no point to engage with ground level if youre infinitely rewarded for keeping max speed
Early 2D games either allowed it in early stages that devs wanted us to speedrun because there was no saving or had a ceiling/walls that extend beyond top of the stage.
Yeah I agree with all this. I don't see the appeal in most sonic fangames for this reason
I actually didn't know of any sonic inspired games outside of Freedom Planet till I watched this. I just started playing Spark the Electric Jester 3, I'm not a big fan of the character design but OMG the gameplay is actually really good. Might try out the other one you showed after I'm done with this.
I agree with you, but I also agree with that one Spark the Electric Jester 3 video claiming it's found the peak of 3D Sonic gameplay. We can have one game that's made to embody Sonic's ludicrous top speed, and the sheer size and general linearity of Spark 2 and 3 levels means they get to collectively be that game.
I didn't even know "automation bad" was an opinion people held, I could have sworn we didn't like the fact automation frequently broke. But yeah there is no reason not to automate things like loops; they are just there to look good, so what's the point if you don't even get a good view?
this is problably the thing i hate the most about fangames
Man if you want that boost sonic game i recommend you and a team make that fangame on your spare time
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. Finally, FINALLY somehow makes a video on how flawed these fangames are. Sonic's fun in official games comes from those limitations, focus, and automation so that moments that feel good to overcome and discover things in have value and feel rewarding.
The loose camera, no guidence, and everything else in between is just so weak in so many of these things and they're praised to hell and back and I'm like "bro, take a course on Game Design then come back and talk with me"
This is coming from the perspective of a Game Designer with a couple years of experience, I remember getting into arguments with peers about these types of games when I was in University.
The problem is always Sonic.
Like that time when my microwave broke
I swear sonic put the metal spoon there!