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GOTH METAL band debate with Lindsay Schoolcraft (Cradle of Filth) | LOCK HORNS (live stream archive)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2016
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Episode 22: GOTH METAL peels back the curtain on metal's shadow side. Host Sam Dunn welcomes guest Lindsay Schoolcraft (Cradle of Filth) to update this branch of the metal family tree. What bands did we miss? How has this style evolved? What's the connection with death doom? Join the debate LIVE Wednesday June 29 at 5pm EST.
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I'm an old guy who used to work at a record store and was SO happy when a teen would come in and buy Evanescence instead of Avril or whatever. I would always mention other more "metal" (yet accessible) stuff to them. Nothing wrong with a band being easy to listen to, even if it's not your (or my) thing.
I am cool with Evanescence, I can deal, but if they're metal, then Type O Negative has to be metal!
You are 1000% right.
i challenge her to listen to Dead Again and then tell me that Type O is a rock band
@@headcutbloodbitchI just did..Doom intro in to a punk song.
Type O Negative has the male gothic voice. But they are so random. I don't think I can even give them a genre.
I remember an interview with Lemmy where he said that he liked Evanecence and they wrote good songs. So if Lemmy says that they're a good band, then they're a good band.
Sorry for commenting again, but Type 0 Negative are Rock and Evanescence are Metal? What? How? How does one come to that conclusion?
Type O was a Gothic rock band,James
Evanescence is a hardcore band now .. so may be when they evolved from a band called withdrawn to one called evanescence Gothic metal could've been one of the genres that they could fit into
I watch this alot and i gave up sometime ago follow some toughts or trees.Its getting real i mean REAL nerdy at times.
lyndsay said that That Type O was a gothic rock band..not only rock..
where' you get that idea from ,james?
James Blobb. Type O Negative :Gothic Rock. With Metal Overtones! Take that you elitist sob
Evanescence is annoying
Why take The Gathering off the list for not making a "Gothic" album in 20 years. But leave Anathema on the list, who also have not made a "Gothic" album in 20 years?!?
exactly. anathema make prog pop art rock
Lacuna Coil was the first Gothic Metal band I ever heard, it was the late 90's, I downloaded Veins of Glass mp3 from an AOL server chat room.
Enjoyed that. Lindsay was a very charming co-host, would like to see her on Banger TV again. I think Paradise Lost should have been put above the board as the main originators of the whole genre.
Word. Celtic Frost already gave us some hints on Into The Pandemonium (with the Christian Death alike vocals, string arrangements and female vocals recovered some years after by Anathema ). But it was Paradise Lost that simply invented the genre. First with a couple of songs among their early Doom/ Death (Gothic, Angel Tears, Shattered, Crying For Eternity, As I Die mostly regarding the Wayne Hussey influenced leads and fills of Gregg over the metallic riffing of Aaron and some female vocal parts) and then definitely DEFINED IT with Icon and Draconian Times. Besides them the only bands that added something different were Type O Negative (Pete's voice way more in line with Goth Rock bands like The Sisters of Mercy or Love Like Blood) the fuzzy guitar sound (much more in the vein of Industrial or Psychedelia) and the church organ banks, The Gathering on Mandylion and Night Time Birds slowing woman fronted (like Siouxiee or X Mal Deutschland) goth rock's tempo and replacing guitar finger picking with metal distorted power chords and Anathema in The Silent Enigma (with the aforementioned Celtic Frost influence) and later in Alternative 4 with a much more rocky approach to it. But in all honesty it is fair to say that Paradise Lost alone defined 75% of what is Goth Metal.
I feel like Gothic Metal is almost like an umbrella term, that evolves Death/Doom, Symphony Black Metal, Melodic Black Metal, Doom Metal
Type O Negative slams every fucking band - and I agree, I would also start a Mongolian war if they touched that magnet! LOL
Lol...Unless toyr name is Gengus ( however it's spelled) Kahn ,you can' t pick a Mongolian War,especially since it was an invasion...
such a fucking heavy band
Listen to the Venus Doom or Greatest Lovesongs Vol 666 and tell me again that H.I.M is light on the riffs. Shit, man. They have an album called Love METAL. Get over it. Not all metal is freaking shredding and crap.
HIM is heavy as heck and I can't comprehend people trying to negate their metal sound.
People don't have to like the band, but trying to say "it isn't metal" is ridiculous.
Songs on Venus Doom are black sabbath for the 2000s
I 100% agree with you here's another thing if we're going to have type o negative up there you got to have HIM there to the DNA share between both those bands is so apparent it's ridiculous, albums like greatest love songs Vol 666, Venus Doom, and even Tears On Tape has Type O and Black Sabbath worship written all over it. I think the reason people get bent out of shape over this band is because they're popular 🤣
3rd And The Immortal need on this list. They were even before Theater of Tragedy. 3rd and The Immortal even influenced Nightwish !!!
*MORTAL
Type O Negative is the definition of gothic metal my fav band love them and miss them to death
My thoughts 2 type o October rust it dus not get much more gothic band
Fields of the Nephilim were probably the first band to push gothic rock into metallic areas - where are they?
Charon, 69 eyes, Sentenced, Deathstars, Lacrimas Profundere, PoisonBlack, To Die For... you missed the most important bands of the genre.
Corpus delecti...
Remember this is based on user comments, but yeah, all bands from your list is great classic goth metal
Leaving Type O on the list opened the door for other classic gothic *rock* bands like 69 Eyes. Seriously, how could you keep one and reject the other? One could even argue that there should be a place there for London After Midnight.
Ha, that's basically my teenage years, but sort of a niche within gothic metal, i think it was called "suomi metal" ...
Gothic metal is derived from a mix of late 70's Gothic rock a la Fields of the Nephilim, Sisters of Mercy, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, The Cure, Christian Death and the like along with influences from doom and death metal. Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, Anathema, Katatonia and Tiamat are just a few bands who had death/doom roots and branched out into gothic and even progressive styles. They all have a similar stylistic trajectory.
.. not Evanescence or Cradle of Filth - Sam treats his viewers like n00bs. Evanescence is a tumblresque interpretation of this style.
illes, wasn siouxsie and the banshees a punk rock band in the 70s?
Siouxsie and the Banshees wasa punk rock band,gilles.. not gothic rock..
Maybe you should give alisten to Inkubussukubus
This episode got me really interested in Gothic Metal. Thanks for the inspiration! Can't wait to see a discussion on Symphonic Metal. ;)
Tiamat, Theatre Of Tragedy, Lacrimas Profundere, Type O Negative, Lacrimosa, Moonspell, Tristania, Sirenia, Charon, Sentenced, Crematory, Mandragora Scream, PoisonBlack, Entwined, HIM, Theatre Des Vampires, Trypticon, Virgin Black, A Pale Horse Called Death, these are examples of undeniable Gothic Metal bands.
The 3rd and The Mortal, My Dying Bride, Lacuna Coil, The Gathering, Paradise Lost, Therion, Within Temptation, Katatonia, these are examples of bands that played Gothic Metal at one point of their career (combined with other elements such as Death/Doom and Symphonic Metal), but they don't necessarily play Gothic Metal anymore.
Anathema, Draconian, Evanescence and Leaves' Eyes are bands that never played Gothic Metal at all.
That's my humble opinion. You can stick it wherever you want, though.
Can you name the best album from each of the bands you named? I’m compiling a list of gothic metal albums, the best from each of the bands representing the genre
Hi. Nice video. Would like to add a couple of ideas:
A) Celtic Frost already gave us some hints of Gothic Metal on Into The Pandemonium (with the Christian Death alike vocals, string arrangements and female vocals recovered some years after by Anathema ). But it was an isolated episode. After that the band would do a couple more songs in that vein (check the amazing Drowned In Ashes) but in no way could one state CF is Goth Metal.
B) Let's be honest: Paradise Lost alone defined at least 80% of what is Goth Metal. Initially with a couple of songs among their early Doom/ Death repertoire (Gothic, Angel Tears, Shattered, Crying For Eternity, As I Die) mostly regarding the Wayne Hussey influenced leads and fills of Gregg over the metallic riffing of Aaron and some female vocal parts. And then definitely DEFINED IT with Icon and Draconian Times. If someone wants to know what Goth Metal is really all about just give them those 2 albums.
C) Other bands that are featured in this board I really like and belong to this genre:
Type O Negative - Pete's voice was way more in line with Goth Rock bands like The Sisters of Mercy or Love Like Blood and the fuzzy guitar sound (bordering Industrial or Psychedelia) added by keys switching between church organ and moog banks gave these guys a unique sound.
Anathema - in The Silent Enigma (with the aforementioned Celtic Frost influence mixed with Doom) and later in Alternative 4 with a much more rocky approach to it. Then they went completely metal-less (albeit their sound continued to be exquisite).
Tiamat - On Wildhoney and A Deeper Kind Of Slumber by adding Pink Floyd flavoured Psychedelic Prog Rock to Goth Metal. Then they went straight Goth Metal (and a bit boring).
Katatonia - Never added nothing really original to the sub genre since they embraced it on their 3rd record but their all around quality is undeniable.
D) Other bands that are featured in this board I'm not a fan of but belong to this genre:
Moonspell: A no brainer, although not being quite a fan of these fellow countrymen of mine. After a debut more focused into Blackened Symphonic Folk, these guys got Goth embedded deeply in their DNA (namely Fields Of The Nephilim and Type o Negative) since the release of Wolfheart.
Lacuna Coil: Crisitina Scabbia herself said it was after listening to Paradise Lost's Christendom that she decided to do the music she does. Enough said. Like it or not LC's sound features Goth Rock and Metal elements (mainly in their first albums heavily influenced by Paradise Lost and The Gathering).... even sometimes it sounds a bit poppy.
Theater of Tragedy: Once again almost a copycat of Paradise Lost with female vocals. Either you like it or not. I personally don't.
Lacrimosa. A Goth Rock band that went Metal with the passing of time. Fair.
Tristania: Not a fan by any stretch but yes... it fits the genre.
E) Other bands that... WHAT THE HELL IS THIS DOING HERE?
Evanescence: Do I need to say anything at all???
F) Other bands that belong to the genre that could be here that I (at least) sympathize with:
Sentenced: From Amok onward the band adopted this sound and never let go again. They have a couple nice songs.
Cemetary: Black Vanity came with a strongly PL influenced (ripped of?) sound and the guys continued on the thread (even when they founded Sundown). Not a fan but hey...
The Blood Divine: Goth Metal band founded by Anathema's Darren White after leaving Anathema. Two records with a couple good songs.
G) Bands I don't like but belong to the genre:
The 69 Eyes, Draconian, Deathstars, Entwined.
H) My Dying Bride: Various members of the band stated several times their influences don't come from Gothic rock. According to Aaron, Andrew and Calvin the guys were influenced first and foremost by Candlemass, Death Metal, Celtic Frost and Symphonic music. Of course musical tastes change (remember the trip hop, psychedelic phase?). Albeit My Dying Bride is Doom to the bone. And by the way i love this band. Of course the miserable and bleak aura they create can be labeled "Gothic"... but not the sound itself.
Peace.
Carlos Jantarada I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thanks for providing some insight to those who may not be as familiar with the subgenre... I really wish this post would receive more recognition.
This is gold. Thank you!
Gathering should be in there for being the inspiration to the genre, in spite of the current state of affairs, and even though they don't like it themselves. But they simply were a part of the inception of it. Even more so than the doom/death bands (A, MDB, PL).
Type O Negative is the best 💚
No further debating 🤘
Marylin Manson is industrial metal / shock rock or alt metal.
mainly shock rock. anyone who refers to him in gothic metal is a fucking nimrod
Manson hasn't done industrial in 20 years. I mostly consider them an alt metal band. The only time they made industrial metal was in Antichrist and Mechanical Animals. Yeah Golden Age had some but it was insignificant. Just listen to the other albums, they are not industrial.
Therion is NOT Nightwish's biggest influence. Movie soundtracks are Tuomas's biggest sources of inspiration. If you're looking for their influences in Gothic then Theatre of Tragedy and My Dying Bride would be the ones. I've never heard them mention Therion.
Therion was one of the early Symphonic metal bands though. They predate Nightwish in that sound.
Delain124 True, but it doesn't necessarily mean they were influenced by them. Their sound is still quite different
two of my favorite gothic metal bands aren't even on the chart
Tristania & Sirenia....
How can you not have Nefilim on this list? In my personal opinion it is Goth Metal in it's purest form. How much more Gothic can you get by mixing quite possibly one of the greatest Gothic Rock bands, Fields of the Nephilim with Metal. Yes Nefilim may have only produced one album which is Zoon and it may not have been well heard about nevertheless musically it is the best Gothic Metal album I've heard in my entire life. It also has Gothic Rock in-bedded in it's roots just being fronted by Carl McCoy, who is an icon when it comes to Gothic Rock. Either way i do agree with Paradise Lost, Type O Negative and Lacuna Coil Being on this list.
It’s “gothic” metal not goth metal. Gothic and goth have different meanings ie; a gothic church or statue
Bringing it to the mainstream should count for something for Evanescence imo. Whether or not they're actually goth, they were the gateway band for a new generation
Would love a new Lock Horns ep with Blayne revisiting Gothic Metal with the whole Tier Album format
TYPE O NEGATIVE is number one of all time best gothic metal band 💚😎
i would have added Entwine, Theatres Des Vampires, Graveworm (Black/Gothic) and...Rock Bitch (maybe)??
the list actually made more sense when they put paradise lost there
This video was so nostalgic for me! Thank you for finally talking about it Sam!
Great guest! I have to fall on the Metal side of the fence with Type O Negative. Especially on the the first album you can hear the Hardcore heritage of Pete's old band Carnivore and surely We Hate Everyone is Metal not Rock.
I'd put Paradise Lost sad early stuff, Therion's Gothic and Within Temptation's Enter up there. TRISTANIA WIDOW WEEDS !! Good bands transcend genres and some albums can be more "gothic" than others.
Draconian also.
what do you think of Sirenia as a gothic metal band?
all are doom death in there original roots.....
Nightwish is more of a symphonic power metal band..
I don;t hear any gothic influences in their material at all !
Love it how a lot of the commenters are a bit ashamed of HIM's sovereign awesomeness. Personally I disagree with your decicion of removing HIM from goth metal. Despite *probably* leaning a bit more toward the rock side of things on average, they have some seriously heavy albums and moments. The debut, Love Metal and Venus Doom, especially Venus Doom are pretty fucking heavy.
Tiamat
Country of origin:
Sweden
Location:
Täby, Stockholm
Status:
Active
Formed in:
1989
Genre:
Death/Doom Metal (early), Gothic Metal/Rock (later)
Lyrical themes:
Death, Morbidity, Sumerian poetry (early), Love, Drugs, Religion (later)
Current label:
Napalm Records
Years active:
1987-1989 (as Treblinka), 1989-present
HIM Is metal 3 albums of them at least
How are you going to leave Evanescence on there and take off HIM? Either leave them both on or take them both off the list. If it came right down to making decision between keeping one of the two I'd say leave HIM up there cuz a least some of their song are metal...all of Evanescence songs are hard rock with goth undertones. I hate this list.
Tin Omen goth is gay so like 12 people max care
Because Evanescence at the time were considered Goth Metal nowadays they more of rock band but the early material is gothic metal and they bought it to the mainstream as well
OMFG . . . . . . Just finishing Rocking Out to 'Type O Negative' (Least Worst Of Album). It's F*ckin Awesome!!! Discovering this badass Goth band for the very first time, deep in it's musical soul, it's the purest sound of Goth, next to Sisters of Mercy . . . . . .mykey from toronto
Type o Negative is the best
Check out their last album “Dead Again” it’s severely underrated and undeniably the heaviest album they ever did
The fact that H.I.M. was taken off of the Gothic chart makes me want to remind you guys that Coheed and Cambria is still under Prog metal.
And there is no reason so say that Evanescence is a metal band. Sure, they're influential, but they're just a rock band. And no, I don't like them, but I'm in no way shape or form an elitist. I'm the guy that usually defends the bands that elitists will say "aren't metal" (i.e. System of a Down, Korn, Avenged Sevenfold)
According to rateyourmusic, Tiamat, Type O, and The Gathering have the top three Gothic Metal albums on their charts. So what does that say?
Within Temptation's Enter is 100% gothic metal
I would have put in Sentenced instead of HIM: they started the finnish gothic metal scene and released killer albums and they were more metal than Valo's band
It's not about the finnish gothic metal scene. It's about the whole of the scene Which means the pioneers of gothic metal include Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride and Anathema. That means even Sentenced took ideas from those three bands.
Seriously, where was Sentenced. And only one person in chat mentioned them ---- you guys let the side down. Wish I was there for this one live.
Simone,I 'd put 4order on that chart instead of HIM
Sentenced?! Gothic metal never came to my mind when listening to them. Actually no idea what genre to put in Sentenced.. after they stopped with dm.
Well well, fun thing is that Sentenced changed their sound with The Cold White Lights to something more HIM-like
On Evanescence, if you'd use that same logic, you might almost take away Nirvana from the Grunge list, since they're so mainstream, or Elvis from Rock 'n Roll. But you can't, because they influenced so many people.
For me, due to Within Temptation brought it to us first here in the Netherlands for a lot of people, and i am sure for a lot more countries the same thing happened (though maybe/probably with a different band), and then Evanescence reinforced the right for Gothic to be take seriously sort of.
Me personally, i don't cre as much about all these different genres and subgenres, and would often mix/interchange a lot of them, and often it can change on an album per album basis. In fact, i'd say you'd almost HAVE to do it per album for a lot of bands.
GAbi,I checked evanesence with Metal-archives.com
here's what i found out
Withdrawn
Country of origin:
United Kingdom
Location:
Liverpool, North West England
Status:
Changed name
Formed in:
1993
Genre:
Death Metal/Hardcore
Lyrical themes:
N/A
Last label:
Household Name Records
Years active:
1993-1999, 1999 (as Evanescence)
Members moved on to such bands as Slavearc, Koreisch, The Kevorkian Solution, Stockton Foster, Unborn, Cracked Cop Skulls, Touchdown, xCanaanx, and Kurohata.
Changed name to Evanescence and became a hardcore only outfit.
Astraea Reminiec same with Lacrimosa jajajajaja
Salvador, opinins are lke assholes..we all have one
I still enjoy Evanescence's Fallen. It's been an important album in my life.
So, since I saw the melodic death metal discussion as well, I really gotta wonder...how does Amorphis end up in Melodic Death Metal but not in Gothic Metal? Like..Back in the day, the early 90ies, "Tales from a thousand lakes" was actually considered the origin of Gothic Death Metal, and that's why I feel they really belong here.
Hey guys, love your videos, so much fun, but my goodness, please let me take on the job of being your audio engineer. Over watching most of your lock horns debates, I hear constant audio problems, with mics not being on, no compression/limiting on microphones to prevent distortion, audio from video clips being so much louder than the live audio, and even heard lisa make a comment in this episode about turning down one of the mics. It's the only thing that lets down the overall professional quality of your program, much love.
also, give Lisa her own camera next season!
Agreed, I've mentioned the audio in the past. also the constant zoom shots on this episode were a little nauseating
Virgin Black also belongs here on this chart
they have the overwhelming melancholy in their sound...& material
Thank you.
Draconian is a band that combines both Gothic & doom metal
I'm a bit disappointed that Novembers Doom, Triptykon, and A Pale Horse Named Death weren't on the list because they are all gothic metal/gothic death metal. Also there NEEDS to be a death/doom debate as you could put my dying bride, paradise lost, anathema, and katatonia on the list.
Yes! Absolutely, you simply cannot discuss Gothic Metal without also discussing Doom Metal, they are so intertwined that they wouldn't have survived without each other. I'm also particularly happy that the discussion of the badly so called "female fronted metal" wasn't too present, because for starters, it just isn't a genre (it's just a sexist term), and second, just because you have a woman singing in darkly inclined clothing doesn't mean that they are gothic metal. Anyways. Great point.
+ThatOnePerson I agree with you too, on all accounts. There's a reason why all of these bands call themselves Gothic/Doom Metal because they couldn't exist without each other. And the female fronted metal thing is ridiculous. I've never heard of genre called "female-fronted", it's ludicrous and as you said sexist.
Novembers Doom are great but I always felt like they are more that death/doom department than gothic. Maybe it's just me but they are too heavy for this genre. Also, the melancholy is there but there are no keyboards or symphonic elements to bring that dramatic effect and atmosphere that other bands of the genre have.
Triptykon are one of my favorite bands at the moment but I wouldn't count them as gothic metal band. For me they are big mix of elements: death, doom, gothic, black and avant-garde. The end result is heavy and dark as fuck. So, they are very difficult to categorize under single label, kinda like Celtic Frost.
+K3yBoardMani4c Thinking about it now and you're right. they definitely are more death/doom but there are some gothic elements in there just not as upfront as most of these bands. On each album they do have a song that has just clean singing and clean guitars with a melancholic atmosphere but nonetheless they are a death/doom band. And you're also right about Triptykon too, they are more black metal than gothic metal. There's really no denying A Pale Horse Named Death is gothic metal though, haha.
I'm also surprised funeral doom didn't come up when they were discussing a gothic doom hybrid
This was a great episode I saw right away the 3 bands that were put to the side Leaves'Eyes, Therion, Within Temptation, and HIM was a given I also knew that was coming. Definitely needs a Symphonic Metal Episode for sure. This girl really knew what she was talking about.
9:00 Gothic metal not connected to goth rock, what?!?!
Since they all use keyboards in similar fashion a great way to tell if a band is gothic, and not symphonic or doom metal is by looking at the guitar riffs. Gothic bands usually use a lot of those palm-muted eight note repeated single power-chord riffs that I believe originated in goth rock.
Gothic metal is a very ambiguous terms, because it refers to the gothic culture being infused into metal music. This explains why there is so much variety here. Lindsay covers it more or less great, but she made 2 grave mistakes and a minor one. Evanescence is as gothic metal as Coal Chamber is. Gothic metal is more like the result of gothic rock combined with death and some doom metal influences. Evanescence from day one came out as an alternative rock/metal band with pop rock, nu-metal (early days) and symphonic rock, but not gothic metal. Just because Amy Lee and the gang looked a little bit gloomy, the overall atmosphere was gloomy as well, that doesn't make their music gothic.
My goodness Lindsay. Type O Negative gothic rock? Even on their debut, which blended gothic undertones with crossover thrash they were as far away as possible from gothic rock. As for the minor one, The Gathering may have moved away from gothic metal, but they did influence it and were part of it for the first 4 albums. Mandylion is a gothic metal staple.
Evanescence’s pre-first record material (1998 EP - Origin) is undoubtedly gothic metal, especially songs like Understanding, Even in Death, Where Will You Go (EP), Anywhere, Lies etc. whereas their studio albums more so lean towards alternative & symphonic metal... Most people hear Evanescence’s name and usually their mind immediately goes to Bring Me to Life & My Immortal, and they use those as definitive songs in determining if Evanescence is gothic or not, which is a huge mistake. If you look at the bigger picture, you know that Evanescence did in fact very much start out as a gothic band.
@@1113jace I have listened to those records in the past and they've never really struck me as gothic metal at all. Image wise maybe. The gloomy atmosphere would certainly make someone think it fits into the whole gothic malarkey. Musically speaking, not quite. The music on the first could of EPs/demos is slower, gloomier, slightly heavier, but still heavily anchored in rock rather than metal. Origin even dabbled in a bit of industrial rock.
Gothic metal has always been bands such as Type O Negative, Paradise Lost, Tiamat, Theater of Tragedy, Tristania/Sirenia and the more extreme stuff such as Moonspell, Cradle of Filth or mid-era Rotting Christ.
Was Evanescence anchored into the whole gothic culture? Yes. Did it play gothic metal? Not really.
The main and most palpable difference between gothic metal and symphonic metal is that gothic metal overwhelmingly hails from the european death/doom scene, all the founders of the genre have several death/doom albums from the late 80's and early 90's which eventually built into gothic metal as an independant genre arround 94 (year where Draconian Times, Wildhoney, the Mandylion and Tears Laid in Earth where realeased), the only non death/doom metal band which I can picture as influencing to gothic metal is The 3rd and the mortal which is also the first band to use female vocals on a integral, operatic fashion, Kari Rueslatten and her bandmates started a movement there which spilled both into gothic metal (the gathering and eventually Tristania) and symphonic metal (Nightwish) in fact both Aneke and Tarja have praised and worked with Kari on several times; in general symphonic metal has an influence from certain black metal bands as well as power metal bands from the late 80's and early 90's which constitute a definitive and recognizable difference between these genres.
For this very reason I find hard to include Type O Negative in the same group as the european representatives of the genre, while its true that they heavily incorporated lumbre and slow elements into their music they come from a much different scene with Carnivore being essentially a thrash metal band and also you can argue that Type O Negative didnt influence in almost any recognizable way the actual gothic metal scene that was going on all accross the atlantic; also several posterior metal bands that became part of the gothic movement didnt quite have the same death doom background as the early metal bands, i surely dont know if considering these as a "second wave of gothic metal" or not gothic metal at all, but definitely the first.
To me "first wave" gothic metal can be pretty much synthesized into these bands and these particular albums:
1. Wildhoney by Tiamat (the best on the genre certainly)
2. Mandylion and Nighttime Birds by The Gathering
3. Draconian Times, Icon and Gothic by Paradise Lost
4. Wolfheart by Moonspell
5. Tears Laid on Earth and Sorrow by The 3rd and the Mortal (Sorrow being one of the top and most influential EP's on the history of metal)
6. Everything My Dying Bride did up to The Dreadful Hours
7. Brave Murder Day by Katatonia
8.The Silent Enigma by Anathema
9. Martyre and Paradise Belongs to You by Saturnus
10. Beyond the Veil by Tristania
11. October Rust and Bloody Kisses if indeed we consider Type O Negative to be gothic metal and not their particular own thing
12. Aegis by ToT
14. Angels of Distress by Shape of Despair
15. Down by Sentenced
16. Saviour Machine's ST
17. Lake of Tears's Autumn
and last
15. Enter by Within Temptation
everything else is pretty much second wave gothic metal and the line between that and symphonic gets too blurry
I half forgot half not sure about Sins of Thy Beloved because certainly they are early but the death/doom influence starts to became lesser
What would be a list for the second wave of gothic metal? The metal influenced by this first wave and hailing from the 00s?
What's the point of having guests who are not well versed on the topic? Don't get me wrong, she is mighty talented but obviously musicology is not her forte. Goth Metal (these bands mostly weren't symphonic and an argument could be made about Symphonic/Neoclassical as another genre) were, for the most part, in the early nineties, Death-Doom bands who traded the extreme part of their music for a darker, more dramatic approach and incorporating sound textures and themes from Goth/Death Rock/Industrial.
From the original bands (My Dying Bride, Moonspell, Funeral, Opera IX, Saturnus, Paradise Lost, Anathema, Pyogenesis, Crematory, Amorphis, Type O Negative, Tiamat, the Gathering, Katatonia) most either don't exist, play another type of Metal or moved further away to not even playing Metal anymore.
All these pioneer bands were, and some are still, very prone to change. If you are gonna take The Gathering off because of that, you basically have to dismantle the bracket, and also the Death-Doom bracket. The only one who has safely lingered between Death-Doom and Goth Metal all these years is My Dying Bride.
And Cradle of Filth, though obviously influenced by these bands and old Penny Dreadfuls, does not belong here. They are too extreme, and one of the points of Goth Metal was losing the extreme sounds. Even Type O Negative used to be a weird mix of Thrash, Hardcore, Goth, Doom and Industrial in their first album. They homogenized their sound for a while and then brought back some of the crudeness to their last releases, but never leaving their characteristic homogenous sound of Goth & Doom.
What's really strange to me is that certain sites label Anathama, My Dying Bride and Paradise Lost as Peacevilles 3 but leave out Moonspell who been hugely influencial
We need a "Gothic Doom" sub genre. And I would place bands like Type o Negative, My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost and The Sins of thy Beloved in the Gothic Doom Genre.
I’m surprised there’s so much consensus for Evanescence as you can also categorize them as Nu Metal but I’m happy they made it 🤘
GREAT handling. Discussing "Gothic Metal" vs. "Goth Metal", discussing almost all the bands, debating on rock-or-metal, all with good spirits and tempo. I like the final selection of bands as well!
so when are you guys doing death metal
Gothic Metal has already evolved. Macbeth, Theatres des Vampires, Lacrimas Profundere, Tristania, Paradise Lost, Penumbra, Silentium. Theatre of Tragedy. They evolved true gothic metal into a modern age without making it mainstream or watering it down. It was a true musical evolution.
Amy Lee is NOT a hack. She has a great voice and is classically trained on Piano.
yes,shane..but miss lee's voice is thin & weak sounding
Astraea Reminiec jajaja no way. Powerful indeed.
Shane Rone ... amy lee can sing but to say she has a great voice is taking it too far .... and what has her piano skills got to do with anything ??
@@021Sweden On a list WatchMojo did of the Top Frontwomen In Hard Rock and Metal, they put Amy Lee at #6 which I can agree with. She has a very good voice (not great), but there are so many others who are better. I personally would put Lacuna Coil's Cristina Scabbia and Sharon Den Adel from Within Temptation over her.
Also, I was at the Cradle of Filth concert in Cleveland, OH (House of Blues) this year. Horns Up!
Also, Evanescence are not metal. Feel free to whine and call me an elitist all you want, but they are Rock. Tuning down and chugging does not necessarily equal Metal.
And that is what the people who cry "elitist" often fail to understand.
The thing is, "gothic rock" is an entirely different genre on its own that has absolutely nothing to do with a band "as heavy as" Evanescence, and I put quotes on that because Evanescence is definitely not a soft or casual rock band. This is a tricky band to classify because, other than it's hated because of its mainstream success, you can't classify it very easily because they move through a variety of different genres, but the common thread is the darkish hard rock they're known for. When people think they're just too melodic to classify as metal (which in my opinion is not a reason to do so), they just put them under "gothic rock", but gothic rock, unlike gothic metal, does have a very identifiable, defined history that can be traced back to the 1970s. So, the poor band has two very defining elitists hate groups, the metalheads and the goths. I can hear the cries in the distance
ThatOnePerson Ok. Gothic Rock might have not been the best term for me to use (correct me if I'm wrong, but Gothic Rock would be for example The Cure's Pornography album, right), but There is no way in hell I'm gonna class them as metal. Not because they are to melodious, but because they don't have a Metal sound in the slightest. They are way to soft, and their riffs simply sound like Rock riffs, just down tuned and chugged.
I would call them maybe Alt. Rock, but I'm no expert in categorization outside of Metal, so I'm open to criticism on that categorization.
I agree that Evanescence is not metal. They are difficult to categorize under single accurate label because they have a lot going on in their music: there are gothic (gloomy melodies, symphonic elements), alternative rock (lyrical themes, overall sound) and nu metal (chugging style riffage) elements. Amy Lee herself has stated that they are definitely a rock band but the twist is that the band's music is "epic, dramatic, dark rock". So maybe "dark rock" is the best way to describe them if you want to use single label.
+K3yBoardMani4c I havent listened that band other than their debute album. I have no idea have they evolved but debute had absolutely some nu-metal wibes. I would argue them being some kind of hard rock band with metal influenses (just like Him).
How was Sentenced not brought up? They were a super important band and one of the definitions of "gothic metal".
Not a single word spoken about the best band on that list - Lacuna Coil!
Meh, never. Paradise Lost is way better.
I noticed that. One of the best and most successful gothic metal bands!!
Where the hell is Celtic Frost? ALL these bands pretty much note them as an influence. I don't know about Evanuisance, or even Within(neither are my thing) I couldn't care less but CF pretty much set the template for the so called gothic-metal type of sound. They also had the beauty and the beast vocals on some tracks. While not totally settling into that area, they were pretty much all over the map rather than one genre, but they still deserve the credit for their influence. Check out tracks like Rex Irae or even Mesmerized.
Don Lebo, these bands put away their Death-Doom Celtic Frost influence and then they became Goth Metal.
celtic frost is the wrong band for this genre,don..
they are more doom metal to me
Don Lebo Celtic Frost has nothing to with Gothic Metal !
CF always has been a precursor for Black metal
I would suggest Japanese band Malice Mizer.. which later became Moi dix Mois for this category
I remember when HIM was calling themselves "love metal" or something like that for a period of time early to mid 2000s 😂
I would switch Lacrimosa with Draconian. If you count out Marilyn Manson, you can count out Lacrimosa, they are more a Goth rock band then metal. Like Manson they have those Metal parts but are more Rock overall.
Draconian on the other hand are like Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, Anathema, Katatonia or Amorphis in the style of there music. These Bands all mix Gothic and Doom together. So if you have these on your list you can, you can put Draconian on there with clear consience.
I'm so glad that you guys would be able to do gothic metal, a style of metal I love the most. But I feel that in recent years I started to notice that it started to decline. Sure we still have Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, Lacuna Coil, Tristania, Moonspell etc. but we lost Theatre of Tragedy, Charon, Poisonblack, The Gathering, Sentenced and more importantly Type O Negative.
Another thing is that it's another style of metal where a few bands have drifted away from their gothic metal sound even though that happened as early as the early 2000s. Katatonia now sounds more progressive than gothic, The Gathering and anathema completely abandoned metal altogether and Lacuna Coil even though I loved their most recent album Delirium, turned into more mainstream sounding of metal with some metalcore elements.
It also lacks a younger generation much like a few genres within metal, I feel that Draconian, Sirenia, and A Pale Horse Named Death are the closest bands that are keeping the genre alive, I feel that Motionless in White is not Gothic but Metalcore.
Lastly, and I don't want to get all disrespectful here but even though the Beauty and the Beast thing is important for Gothic Metal and was new and fresh back in 1995 with theatre of tragedy and it brings more female musicians involved with metal, but I feel that the beauty and the beast style has been done too much in the genre to the point where it is becoming predictable and stale.
I find all of this negativity very saddening because I love this music to death. I've only been a fan of Gothic Metal for 4 years but got me very hooked on it and dug me even deeper to more underrated and phenomenal bands. I'm hoping that one day there will be newer bands that will come in Gothic Metal because I don't want to see this style of music to die out. Most people would disagree with what I just said but this is all just an opinion that I feel it needed to be said.
You can credit Dark Tranquillity with being one of the early bands to have a female singer. Yes it was on two songs. But they did it long before TOT. Just look at Skydancer.
+Delain124 I've actually never heard dark tranquilitys music because of all the other music I've been listening to right now. I always say that the gathering was the earliest band with female and male singer. But I would like to hear the songs of what you mentioned. I'm pretty open to alot of metal, especially Gothic metal.
Very nicely put! Would love to see your top 10 or 20 gothic metal albums of all time! Since I’m getting into the genre, I’m always pleased to discover new gothic metal gems to add to my collection 😊
Lindsay ,Nightwish is a symphonic power metal band
She claims to have listened to gothrock, yet she says Evanescence, Marilyn Manson and HIM. Nooope noope nope. Liisa, why didn't you say anything?! Gothrock came from post-punk, it's not "gothic" as in vampires, graveyards and cathedrals. Very few goth bands took inspiration from the gothic, and that was mostly in the 90s anyway. It started with bands like Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure, and then Bauhaus and Sisters Of Mercy, which really defined the genre. So this is why I feel gothrock and gothic metal don't really have much to do with each other. Maybe TON and My Dying Bride because of the vocals - but I'm no expert on gothic metal, I don't really like most of it (the more symphonic beauty and the beast pretty lady in dress bands). End rant lol
Goth Metal bands (such as Type O Negative) were influenced by actual Goth bands and have imagery, atmosphere, and lyrics that directly reflect the elements within Gothic Literature. Hence why it's called Goth Metal. It's the lovechild birthed from a romantic night between Metal and Goth. My issue is that Lindsay never articulated any of this. She just starts out talking about Evanescence! I understand she's a huge fan. But, MAJOR yikes.
"it's not "gothic" as in vampires, graveyards and cathedrals. Very few goth bands took inspiration from the gothic, and that was mostly in the 90s anyway"
Not true. The early Goth bands were heavily influenced by Gothic Literature. Hence the name. Which also means that Goth and Gothic are the same thing.
Siouxsie and the Banshees got their band name from a Gothic Horror film called "Cry of the Banshee" starring Vincent Prince. Bauhaus's "Bela Lugosi's Dead" was written about the actor that played Dracula (a movie based on the Gothic novel by Bram Stoker).
“We’d actually described Join Hands as “gothic” at the time of its release, but journalists hadn’t picked up on it. Certainly, at that time *we were reading a lot of Edgar Allan Poe and writers like that. A song like “Premature Burial” from that album is certainly gothic in its proper sense*.” - Steve Severin
“In a Factory Records interview by Mary Hannon in the summer of 1979, there is the following passage:
One clue to Joy Division lies in their album’s title. Another is the description given by Martin Hannett, who calls them ‘dancing music, with gothic overtones’. Unintentionally, Bernard Albrecht gave an excellent description of 'gothic’ in our interview, *when describing his favourite film 'Nosferatu’*. The article goes on to describe Joy Division as 20th century gothic.” - Peter Scathe
Why wasn't Tristania included on this branch?
I got into Gothic metal through this band.. I'm sorry , but Type O Negative left me a little bit Cold back in the day
WAKE ME UP INSIDE
Draconian
Country of origin:
Sweden
Location:
Säffle
Status:
Active
Formed in:
1994
Genre:
Gothic/Doom Metal
Lyrical themes:
Anti-religion, Death, Depression, Love, Sorrow
Current label:
Napalm Records
Years active:
1994 (as Kerberos), 1994-present
Astraea Reminiec To me they're more like gothic doom tbh. Anyway, probably the best band with growls & female vocals for me.
Hey Samm, you forgot a whole lot more. The 69 eyes, Lacrimas Profoundere, Solstice, Entwine, To Die For, Moonspell, Still Remains, Theatre of tragedy, Unsun, Atrocity, Charon, Katra, Darkseed, Crematory (recently) would be awesome if I could get on the next Lock Horns debate. Have you been back to Dubai since the Maiden show in 2006? We can do a full episode here!
Does no one knows that Paradise lost are the godfathers of gothic metal, cause listen to their 2nd album called "gothic " come on man
Facts
The Gathering! Love to see it on the list!
Mandylion🤘🏼
Hey sam! I have a question and would love to hear your thoughts on this. what's the difference between gothic metal and doom metal? also, do some of these bands cross into doom metal territory more than gothic?
I would also like to know the difference between gothic and doom.
@@aprild9577 I love how that comment is 3 years old and you're the first one to reply. Lol.
@@ArkaeaFCL3 it's sad really. Lol. To me it's the same genre. I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts though. I'm more of a thrash, traditional and alt metal person myself. Not to say I don't like other sub-genres but that's typically where I go.
Depending on how these sub-genres get defined I think oceans of slumber could be gothic.
I think overall I get confused on what differentiates the sub-genres. It's always interesting to watch lock horns, but I think it's more important to love the music than care about what sub-genre it falls under.
I'm a music addict overall and my favorite thing about shows like banger is finding new bands to love
If Tristania is in there shouldn't Sirenia make an appearance? Same creator different band.
Leaves eyes is a symphonic metal band
"...with a melancholic rage?" -- Ok, I laughed at that.
Chris Eichenberger Sam Dunn is ignorant when discussing subgenres he does not appreciate. It’s often displayed on Lock Horns since it’s a live show. Lol
In my opinion, gothic metal is a fusion genre that combines any metal style with atmospheric and prominent synths (the presence of synthesizers must be as important as guitar riffs or even more) to obtain a sound that could be described sometimes as melancholic, sometimes as hypnotic, sometimes ethereal, creepy or even romantic, but must always be describable as a dark one.
The gothic taste of the sound is always there via the atmosphere and the synths, but the metal side varies a lot form band to band. With this in mind, we could say that Type o negative is a gothic band with a thrash-metal-ish approach, My Dying Bride is on the doom metal side, Evanescence includes a Nu-metal taste and Cradle of Filth is just a gothic band with no possible label for the metal side of their sound.
Where is Saviour Machine , they definitely deserve this list. They are as equally Gothic as progressive.
A band that definitely deserves to be on this list: Fields of the Nephilim. One can't possibly be any more Gothic or Metal. Between Carl McCoy's guttural (but fully understandable) growls to their aesthetic to their tendency towards metaphysical lyrics, Nephilim in my view are the epitome of a Goth metal band.
Influential on some metal artists (Katatonia, Tiamat) and a little heavier distortion wise, but at the end of the day they were a gothic rock band.
+Bill Vrabel when they first came out, FotN were actually referred to genre-wise as "spaghetti metal" due in large part to their Western aesthetic, as well as their sound.
Any fan of gothic rock will tell you that FoTN are a staple in the genre, few metalheads actually know who they are, and that's the indicator.
+Bill Vrabel I don't know what metalheads you've talked to, but it was a metalhead in fact, who introduced me to them. In fact, Preacher Man and What Dreams May Come (Sumerland) were played on Headbanger's Ball. That's kind of the problem with trying to put bands into all these genres. Seldom do people agree, lol. I was just reading the comments and somehow Danzig got mentioned as goth metal. Who knew, lol?
I can see where people are coming from with Danzig...dark imagery, dark lyrics, deep vocals and Samhain was a deathrock band which, along with post-punk, was the basis of Goth music. It's definitely understandable, although the gothic metal tag might be a bit inaccurate.
I listen to Paradise Lost and Candlemass both predate Type O...but when bloody kisses came out they took the freshly lit torch of that genre and ran up to the top of the mountain and slammed that stake down through the rock like Excalibur in stone...And haven't relinquished the top of the mountain since....In my opinion...Lacuna Coil is a close second...🤘🤟
Katatonia started as death/doom and later moved to progressive metal. Anathema also started as a death/doom band that moved on to play some sort of depressive rock. I wouldn't consider either as gothic metal bands. Based on some of their later albums you can say Paradise Lost is gothic metal, even though they were also a pioneering death/doom band, but My Dying Bride is definitely a death/doom band and to me has no relation to gothic metal whatsoever.
I'm not familiar with my dying bride, anathema or paradise lost but I totally agree with you about Katatonia though.
I just watched the prog metal episode and said that I thought Katatonia should be there. Maybe I can see them a little here in gothic cuz of the darkness of the lyrics and the keyboards.
I don't know what you would call them. All I know is I love Katatonia. I also love Lacuna Coil.
Do you agree that symphonic metal derives from gothic metal? Within Temptation, After Forever, Epica and Nightwish had their most gothic album as their first (+ Mandylion by Gathering, Tristania, Sins of Thy Beloved that have symphonies in it), to me is a sign of musical transition between two genres
I enjoy these things in general, but the digital clipping is killing me in some of these latest uploads.
We here you and are going to fix it for the next episodes.
40k subs! our community is growing, nice work banger
Only concern with HIM if we are talking about influence their first e.p and first album greatest love songs vol.666 are their heaviest releases idk just saying
Venus Doom is straight Sabbath worship and is just as heavy as GLS66
Ummm, Therion didn't create the genre of Symphonic metal. Stratovarius' sound morphed into some symphonic aspects on the Episode album, which predates Therion by a year. Also, if you listen to Fourth Dimension, Twilight symphony is ABSOLUTELY Symphonic metal.
And X-Japan and Savatage predate Stratovarius. So no Stratovarius did not start anything. The sound as we know it came from X-Japan, Savatage, and Therion. For the Black Metal side of it you have Emperor.
Delain124 X-Japan had zero influence on Finland. Also, if you even know anything about X-Japan, their first 2 albums were REALLY heavy. On top of that, X-Japan's first album was only 1 or 2 years before Stratovarius' Fright Night. Also, Timo Tolkki has said that Ritchie Blackmore and rainbow is the reason stratovarius exists, X-Japan, savatage, etc had ZERO influence on him. Helloween had more influence than either of those 2 bands.
You sound like a goddamn weeaboo the way you blather on about X-Japan. X-Japan was not revolutionary, and they don't even accept that they are metal. You know why? The big 3 metal bands in Japan are Loudness, Anthem, and Outrage. X-Japan isn't even the equation. Yeah, you don't really want to bring up Japanese metal with someone who is IN the scene now and knows quite a few important people in it.
Stratovarius is the reason Sonata Arctica even exists today btw. The Finnish sound was defined by Stratovarius in the beginning and expanded upon by other bands. Sorry, but I know you just want to argue becasue you think you're right, but the minute you brought up X-Japan, your argument failed and you lost ALL credibility.
pilotamurorei
Symphonic metal as whole started with Savatage and X-Japan those are facts. Add to it Therion.
Delain124 Technically, Uli Jon Roth, Ritchie blackmore and Yngwie created neo-classical, which is the DIRECT route to ANY symphonic metal bands. X Japan has only had influence outside Japan RECENTLY and they are not of importance during the first rise of Symphonic metal/neo-classical.
pilotamurorei
So we can take it back more then that.
I’m glad they did an episode on Gothic Metal, my favorite genre not only in Metal but overall. And I have a quite eclectic taste in music (from metal to alternative to indie to prog and even commercial pop) But it was Paradise Lost who got me interested in Gothic music, and I’ve been a fan of them for nearly 20 years. I remember those years when I started to get into Gothic Metal and consuming all those different bands from the genre, couldn’t get enough of them. I even began dressing as a Goth and having so much fun. Now I look as Goth as Taylor Swift 🤣 but the gothic music is still a very important part of my life.
Where's lacrimosa? Lacrimosa is too Gothic? From inferno (1994) album on they turned from darkwave into Gothic symphonic metal. Is it because they singe in German?
Interesting episode. Thank you, Sam. Long Live Bangers TV.
Someone already mentioned The 3rd and the mortal. What about Whispering Forest?
Since you guys did hardcore and mathcore episodes, can you guys PLEASE do post-hardcore? I would love to see you guys talk about bands like Letlive, Dance Gavin Dance, Silverstein, Stick To Your Guns, Counterparts, and ect.
Is Ms. Schoolcraft seriously contending that Manson is not "Heavy" enough and has too much melody, but at the same time arguing for the inclusion of freaking Evanescence? I'm not really sure if I believe that he belongs on this list either. Especially with his more recent albums definitely being more rock than metal, but if you're going to include the pussified crap that is Evanescence, then you must also include him, or eliminate them.