HARDCORE bands debate with Wade MacNeil from alexisonfire/Gallows | LOCK HORNS (live stream archive)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มี.ค. 2016
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Join us for the live stream of LOCK HORNS, a weekly live streamed show debating the various genres of Banger’s Metal Family Tree.
Episode 11: HARDCORE features host Sam Dunn and guest co-host WADE MACNEIL of alexisonfire, Gallows, The Edge 102.( / wade_macneil .
We'll be reading your comments in real time throughout the show but you can start the debate now in the chat: What essential hardcore bands are missing? How do metal and punk influence each other...or not. And don't forget to tell us the newest acts in the evolution of this genre. Ready? Fight!
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There should at least be a subchart about d-beat/crust under Discharge's influence.
definitely
Nobody even mentioned Devin Townsend this week. What an accomplishment.
Geezer Butler respects punk, therefore all metalheads should respect punk.
Nah
I've really been getting into hardcore punk
seems like homie wasn't trying to include the legendary Bad Brains in the hardcore category. that's fucking absurd. just because they also played reggae esq grooves and some slower grooves as the years went on doesn't negate the fact that they are absolutely a hardcore band. minor threat would've been a very different band without Bad Brains. this is a fact
+Darrien Day Real talk. Have you seen Under The Influence: New York Hardcore? It's an awesome docu with a bunch of the old veterans of the new york hardcore scene. Bad Brains definitely gets their credit in that one. It's all about that PMA.
Kill Everyone Yup, I seenched it. pretty solid. I mean, it's just a simple fact that Bad Brains (plus so many of bands from my lovely DC) were an essential part of the sound that we call hardcore. It's simple, haha
Fellow DC son here, I think BB are one of the greatest bands from our city. They had the energy of punk, the soul of reggae and musicianship of metal. Phenomenal one-of-a-kind band.
That's exactly what I said. Honestly, I was hesitant when they got the guy from Alexisonfire... aren't they like the Cannibal Corpse of the new Hardcore? No, that's offensive to Cannibal Corpse.
can't believe nobody mentioned 7 Seconds!
Awesome. I can't wait for next weeks show. Very important topic. Hail Bangers TV. Thank you, Sam.
LOCK HORNS: power violence band debate! please!
YES
Yes, also Neo Crust
yes please
Great show, really enjoyed this one. Keep up the good work!
Some others i didnt hear in this: Poison Idea, Negative Approach, Battalion of Saints, 7 Seconds, M.D.C, Necros, Suicidal Tendencies
and Judge and Youth of today
No matter how much Steve Harris likes to deny it you can hear a big punk influence on those first two Maiden records.
Patriarchal Shitlord So very true. I consider the song "Prowler" like a mix of KISS and The Sex Pistols
I think instead of spending so much time adding more groups, they should have first broken down the list first into East coast, West Coast, and UK hardcore. Fundamentally the three have different sounds even though there are blurred lines between them all.
Good idea. We could have multiple HC trees for sure.
Funny thing is, growing up in the sticks of the south during the 80s, the terms speed/thrash/death/black metal where loosely used and interchangable. We didn't know any better. The first time I heard Cromags and Sick of it All, I just thought they were thrash bands with short hair. That was the fun part of growing up in the 80s.
They should also add a Crust and Japanese Noise punk tree with bands like Disclose, Death Side, Zyanose, Aspects of War, Life and so on
Hekuboshi
MN, 😥😥😥😥😥😥😗😗😗😗
Shinji's Big Booty aspects of war is not from Japan CMIIW
subscribed my dawg. preciate the many years of hard work. I remember seeing your movie when I was probably 11 or 12 maybe and this kinda stuff just brings me back to the good old days.
This episode needs to be redone. Too many bands left on the list that are definitely not hardcore and a lot of bands that were not even mentioned.
i think it would have been smart to address hardcore in waves as you would for black metal, 1st wave being the 80s hardcore punk bands like black flag, then 2nd wave being the nyhc sound of the 90s like madball and so on. Lumping them all into the same list made this confusing due to the evolution of the hardcore sound
Honestly you could an entire show like this for punk and all its sub-genres. Punks like splitting genre hairs almost as much as metal heads. Almost.
Any of these people ever listened to DOA's Hardcore 81? Pretty much hardcore from beginning to end and actually coined the term as a musical genre.
A hardcore chart without Negative Approach, Fang and Verbal Abuse?
I strongly agree with adding, Negative Approach. Sick Of It All has even said, NA are a huge influence on the entire Hardcore scene.
Lot of revisionist history in this episode and in this thread. In the 80s, there was no question that Black Flag, Circle Jerks, TSOL, DOA, Husker Du, Gang Green, Adolescents, Flipper, DRI, MDC, DI and similar bands were all part of the Hardcore scene.
Yes no offense to Wade, but if your going to take DOA off the list, than you need to take the Dead Kennedys and Circle Jerks of the list to. DK is the lightest sounding of them all, but also my personal favourite.
Judge, Burn, Warzone, Blood for Blood, Madball, Cro-Mags. I've heard more bands cover these bands live more than any other band on this list. I thought influence was a big defining factor.
no terror? that was one of the craziest shows I went to seeing them open for bleeding through with a ghost inside
Bands that should have made the list: SS Decontrol, Slapshot, Negative Approach, Judge, Youth of Today, Unbroken, Dropdead & Ten Yard Fight.
My biggest question is how this basically skipped an entire decade. There was a ton of stuff WAY before Comeback Kid (fuck Bane wasn't even mentioned) and the fact that the genre evolved so much means that things that even though you could call them crossover or metalcore or whatever, the fact of the matter is that at the time we all just called it hardcore.
what about madball
I said Cro-Mags had to be there (the one about Age of Quarrel linking me from thrash to hardcore) but I completely forgot about Crossover! I definitely think they belong in Crossover over hardcore
meteor09 Crossover belong to Hardcore tree. Here should be mentioned all Hardcore styles. It develops to many forms.
Cro-Mags could definitely be argued to be a defining crossover band, but they more than defined the 80’s New York Hardcore scene and for many people are one of the first bands that come to mind as a pivotal hardcore band nest Minor Threat, Bad Brains and Black Flag
Definately needs a Crust Punk episode. hardcore punk + extreme metal.
TOTALLY, im listening to Sarcafago after Mayhem and there is 100% hardcore punk influence in all metal bands. Crust brings that truth to existence. like His Hero is Gone..etc.
Negative Approach!!!
Hell yeah! Should definitely be on the list!
Bad brains on the top of the list
Great video. Post Hardcore Lock Horns next please!!!!!!!
Madball needs to be added to this list, as well as H2O , Counterparts
I would agree on Madball and maybe h20 but Counterparts is straight up metalcore
Imagine putting Counterparts on a list of most influential hardcore bands lol
GERMS! They dont get enough credit imo. Totally agree with what they said about GI. Ahead of anything in 79. Same deal with the Lexicon Devil ep in 78.
No Japanese bands besides Gauze? Gauze are my favorite but there are so many to pick from that at least one or two more should have been up there. Death Side, Systematic Death, Outo, The Comes, G.I.S.M, Aburadako, S.O.B, Bastard, Judgement, Crow, Lip Cream, Sodom, Gai, etc... I'd have probably gone with Death Side and G.I.S.M as being the most important with Gauze.
If swedish Refused should be on then the best Hardcore band from sweden should be pn Anti-cimex
youth of today is missing too
EXACTLY
No mention of Adolescents ? That's a damn shame.
uh tsol's dance with me is a hardcore record. Also gang green, dr know and leeway should have been added to the list. Whenever y'all do essential albums of this make sure you have Born to Expire by Leeway.
I'm super glad to hear Comeback Kid and Have Heart. Literally my two favorite hardcore bands. But I think they more belong in Melodic Hardcore
Also can we PLEASE HAVE A POST-METAL EPISODE! Get one of the guys from Rosetta or Mouth of the Architect!
woould love to see a crossover episode
Fear, warzone, SS decontrol, Sham 69, jeez guys lol
Sham 69 is more oi! But I agree with fear
Lock horns : Crust
Banger TV Thank you for getting my last name right Sam!
I think your audio is way off sync with the video :p
Refused is the quintessential post-hardcore band
I'm glad they mentioned Poison Idea, but bummed there was no magnet.
Look up Hatebreed's "For the Lions" tracklist with the original bands: Suicidal Tendencies, Madball, Dirty Rotten Imbeciles, Sick of it All, Negative Approach, Judge, and Subzero. Never listened to much hardcore, but Hatebreed's covers had me looking into them with the quickness.
Proud punk and metalhead
It's about time you announced the black metal debate!
Shaved Pussy was a short lived hardcore band from Scarborough, Ontario. They were around in the 80s. Pretty much the Canadian version of Minor Threat.
Yes. Map is needed to breakdowm this genre. About the map, it would be interesting to see how JapHC inspire a lot of Cleveland bands, if we're not talking about Integrity/Ringworm/One Life Crew but with bands like Inmates, 9 shocks terror, and h-100s. And how United Mutation become really an outsider from the 'melodic' side of DC's band like MT, Dag Nasty, etc. There's also need the talk about post-hardcore, but not much, just an impact. Because the 90s post hardcore, I mean the one that close to Screamo are, IMHO, musically as near as extreme as the hardcore, again (i'm talking about Orchid). And after that you can build a bridge from them to the Matchore-whatever debate. And about people that shouting TERROR TERROR TERROOOOORRR, I would put Hatebreed (talking about their early stuffs) before we proceed to talk about Terror. And yea the addition to talk modern hardcore/melodic bands like Verse, Bane, would make it even more perfect. AND PLEASE SAM DO A POWERVIOLENCE SHOW 😭😭😭😭
Dude i haven't thought of 9 shocks terror in so long I loved havoc records the H100s and destroy DS13 , caustic Christ, brother inferior
Please guys, do a Post Metal episode!!! Banda like Cult of Luna, Isis, Neurosis and even some of the "proto" post metal bands like Melvins need a space!!!
+Daniel Demetrio
Don't forget The Ocean. 'Precambrian' is a devastating album!
It’s crazy, I definitely see what people are talking about now but as a kid, terror, madball, early hatebreed that was hardcore to me. Killswitch, unearth, as I lay dying was Metalcore. I think some bands just lean more to one side. The first group I mentioned was more hardcore and the second more metal.
Crust punk is something that really needs to be talked about. If we're going hardcore why aren't we getting crusty. Break out the malt liquor and coal dust.
yep
the fact that Wade from Alexisonfire was the guest combined with the discussion of Refused's Shape of Punk to Come and post hardcore got me thinking about something.
are we going to we going to get a Locked Horns installment on Post-Hardcore?
I mean the metal influences in bands like Alexisonfire, The Bled, and Hopesfall's first album are pretty blatant.
If they do that then they can't call this a metal show or channel. If they want to talk about punk music then talk about all it's genres. Hardcore has jack and shit to do with metal music. I hate that people do that Post-hardcore, hardcore, etc are genres of punk. End of story.
is there a link to that video of the Tomas Haake interview?
I cannot believe they didn't put YOUTH OF TODAY up on the board!
Leeway, Zero Boys, Youth of Today, MDC, Raw Power, Moderat Likvidation, (early) Corrosion of Conformity, English Dogs, Middle Class, Void, SS Decontrol, Angry Samoans, Infest etc are just a few bands that at least should have gotten a quick mention.
And you put up the crossover magnet but put no bands under it: Leeway, Corrosion Of Conformity, DRI, Suicidal Tendencies, Gang Green, English Dogs, Raw Power, Cryptic Slaughter, The Accüsed, Septic Deth are just a few (oldschool bands) i would put under it.
Totally love MDC! I would add Attitude Adjustment to the crossover list whenever that happens.
Don't forget the crossover band S.O.D., M.O.D., Blind Illusion, Excel, Beowulf, Dr. Know & Uncle Slam. For Hardcore Bad Religion, Gorilla Biscuits, Descendences, 7 Seconds, Battlion Saints, Wasted Youth, Jerry's Kid & The Adolescents.
You put up a crossover magnet but didn't put DRI up. Come on man.
WAIT WHAT???? No DRI under CROSSOVER!!!???
I‘m not that deep into hardcore, but when I think about Hardcore, one of the first things that comes up are Walls of Jericho.
Aren’t they considered Hardcore by you guys? I really don’t know, just wondering why they didn’t come up.
Please do another branch of Melodic Hardcore
No band exemplified the pissed off vibe of Hardcore than Sheer Terror
if you do a Post-Hardcore episode, you gotta start with Refused, At The Drive In, and Glassjaw
If they do a Post-Hardcore show, you start with Fugazi and Quicksand and then everything else that shamelessly ripped them off.
+Cassidy Robinson lol At The Drive In was way better than Fugazi or Quicksand.
If you say so... I think that's a personal taste kinda thing. Personally, as much as I like ATDI, they never released an album as good or as important as Repeater.
Cro-Mags are hardcore, but also crossover thrash.
Judge & 7 Seconds come to mind for me.
Was introduced to Sick of It All and Biohazard at the same time both bands blew me away and have a never ending love for both bands, however Biohazard would definitely be a Crossover between Thrash and Hardcore though; didn't understand why they were under Metalcore
Youth Of Today got no love. Damn.
How the fuck did not one person mention Verbal Abuse!?!?! first LP came out in 1983 and was one of the most influential hardcore band of all time! There would be no D.R.I. or Cryptic Slaughter with out them. No Mention of Slapshot or any Boston bands aswell...
WTF you guys didnt talk about DRI or Suicidal Tendencies on this or the thrash episode come on both of those bands were extremely important to hardcore and thrash im amazed...
First comments I will make, get in for the Cro-Bar t-shirt! One of the few places in central London you can go that isn't a shitty chain pub.
Comeback Kid are way too new, but they are a great great band and defo flying the flag. GB & Madball definitely need to be there. Hatebreed are Metalcore with a huge nods to Hardcore influence but they are Metalcore through and through.
Where would bands Trap Them, All Pigs Must Die, Nails, Baptists, The Secret, and Oathbreaker fit? Crustpunk/metal/hardcore?
I describe Oathbreaker's early sound (on the "Oathbreaker" EP and "Maelstrøm") as Blackened Metalcore, but their sound has since evolved into Blackgaze and Post-Metal.
Nails fits in Grindcore and Powerviolence, while Trap Them fits in Grindcore and Crustpunk.
ST and DRI in crossover, and where are the crumbsuckers and pro pain?
Dead Kennedys, black flag, exploited, gbh, and discharge are all hardcore bands. I wish I could have seen this live
Adding Comeback Kid and Refused made this list fucking worthless. No mentions of Youth Of Today, MDC, SS Decontrol, Warzone, DYS, Project X, Breakdown, Judge, Chains Of Strength, Slapshot, Larm, Infest... there are dozens of bands that deserved to be mentioned before Refused was even considered. Most of the dbeat scene happening at the same time as the American hardcore scene was growing is technically hardcore punk.
Straight edge much?
Killing time over Breakdown.
What about Husker Du?
Wow, your link does not take me to your channel on AppleMusic Im listening some indian music instead...
I know this video is from a number of years ago but.....here I am? Anyway I definitely agree with others that D-Beat should be featured more on here. I feel like hardcore was split into two camps in the 80's. The more NY hardcore sXe stuff and then the crusty stuff. For the more punk side of it bands that I think should have been on this list: Anti Cimex, Articles of Faith, Neurosis (pain of mind?), Christ on Parade, Death Side, GISM, Asocial, Doom, Neuroot, BGK, Nausea, Sacrilege, MDC, Crucifix, Mob 47, Antischism, Youth of Today.... I could go on. I know many of these bands fit into other genres but if you look at the wide variety they have represented on the board I think any one of these would fit in. Obviously it's crazy to think they could possibly include all these bands but having Exploited included over ANY one of them is ridiculous (this is coming from a guy that has at least 6 or 7 exploited lps). It's also way American/UK based. Plenty of early great HC came out from all over the world. Having said all that I still liked watching.
I was fucking pissed that Madball wasn't added on here
Jello Biafra from DK
"Hardcore formulas are dog shit."
I don't care what anybody says, I appreciate this episode. Hardcore is technically a derivative of punk, but is greatly influenced by metal. Thrash, metalcore, nu metal, and crossover all have punk/hardcore influence.Look up Hatebreed's "For the Lions" tracklist with the original bands: Suicidal Tendencies, Madball, Dirty Rotten Imbeciles, Sick of it All, Negative Approach, Judge, and Subzero. Never listened to much hardcore, but Hatebreed's covers had me looking into them with the quickness.I thought the song "New Noise" was an original Anthrax song on the album Worship Music, then learned it was a Refused song.
"Hardcore is technically a derivative of punk, but is greatly influenced by metal". No- "hardcore" IS punk (or was), just sped up with a harder beat. The only "metal" band that may have had any influence at all was Motorhead, but they're kind of in a class all by themselves, to the extent that the hessians in high school in '81 hated them. Sure, things may have changed and morphed later on, but since this video is talking about the time-frame I'm referring to, I'm going to say my interpretation is correct.
Just stumbled upon this but what about UK HC underule, knuckledust and public disturbance
What about finnish hardcore bands like Kaaos, Riistetyt, Rattus, Bastards,Turun tauti, and Endstand.
No Poison Idea?
The Varukers are more D-beat...but should still be up there...as they influenced Bathory.
West Is Best true. Also I read somewhere that quorthorn was more inspired by GBH then venom
No Youth of today , they are the one that make this genre heavy.
I've heard of alexisonfire, but not Gallows. Would other members of those bands not know that DOA is a hardcore band?
have you guys done a show on numetal?
They will begrudgingly have to.
Crust punk bands needs own show..Best crust punk bands comes from Sweden..like Skitsystem, Wolfpack, Disfear
+verbaledge, That's the beauty about opinions I suppose. There are people out there today that still say Metallica is a metal band, and call Green Day a punk band.
Help me out guys, where would you place Every Time I Die? I'm new to hardcore/post hardcore and I'm trying to figure out what it's about.
+UglyTheDuckling Metalcore.
+Luther Luuther Man, metalcore feels like a catch all sometimes.
+UglyTheDuckling
Metalcore is a pretty diverse category nowadays. You have traditional metalcore / metallic hardcore, melodic / modern metalcore (of both the post-hardcore and/or melodic death metal influenced variety), mathcore, djent, trancecore and deathcore.
YES!!!!!!!!!!! Dayglow!
No Snapcase?
I hear them a lot in refused and converge. Kind of a big deal.
Way more on the Metalcore side though. Earth Crisis and Snapcase were part of the mid to late 90's blown up with Strife for sure.
You have a crossover sub-genre, but no Suicidal Tendencies. They do play a part in the hardcore evolution, even if they did wind up becoming a thrash metal later on.
Suicidal should be mentioned in any conversation that DRI shows up in.
How could you say Bad Brains is anything but Hardcore(ignoring their reggae songs) Rock For Light is as Hardcore as Age of Quarrel
Youth of Today is the most glaring omission (+ Judge; Shelter etc.)
dri, hype from canada, beyond possesion and suicidal tendencies
How about, Buried Alive, Strife, Hoods, and warzone
The Misfits founded the Crossover genre. Suicidal Tendencies, D.R.I and Cro-Mags carried that torch through the '80s until Cro_Mags went almost Math/Metalcore and Suicidal definitely went Thrash (with Lights, Camera,Revolution and Art of the Rebellion).
I feel they should do a episode on post hardcore. Like go more in depth with Refused and go on to talk about bands like Silverstein, Letlive, Dance Gavin Dance, Emarosa, and ect.
Post-hardcore might need 90 minutes starting with Fugazi...It may be one of the most difficult to define. What's considered posthardcore now is so far removed from the beginnings of (Hum, At the Drive In, Blood Brothers, Glassjaw, Quicksand, Helmet).
That would be awful. Sam's a metal guy, not a punk guy or alternative rock guy. A post-hardcore episode on a metal show would make it turn into trying to pull connections to metal, but there is close to none. Post-hardcore has nothing to do with metal.
***** If Sam is not much of a punk guy, then why would he take time out of his day to do a full fledged episode on hardcore punk? Also, punk and metal bands have always been taking inapirations from each other constantly and even some newer post hardcore bands have cited metal bands as their inspiration or even worked with fellow metal musicians. If they can make an episode on hardcore punk, it is honestly not that much of a far cry to talk about the newer guys.
You dont have to be close minded because "EWWWWW I dont want to hear about Sleeping With Sirens and Pierce The Veil in this episode and not give attention to the really talented bands in the genre."
Sam knows that the original hardcore scene of the early 80's was incredibly influential to several genres of metal. Just because he does an episode on here of a specific genre doesn't mean that he's an expert on it or does he especially enjoy it (see the nu-metal episode). Plus, this is his job. It's not like this is solely a passion project that he does for free on the internet.
Sure punk and metal have borrowed from each other, but post-hardcore bands in specific root more from other punk bands, post-punk bands, jazz, funk, and experimental rock. The evolution of post-hardcore doesn't cross metal. Hell, most post-hardcore has more in common with alternative rock than metal.
None of the bands that you mentioned have any metal influences either. Refused and Silverstein have neither. Those bands that have metal influences that are labeled as post-hardcore are metalcore bands.
If Sleeping With Sirens and Pierce The Veil were put up on a post-hardcore chart, then that would just prove my point about the silliness of post-hardcore being included on a show like this.
Crust is very underrated, Crust the most important influence to metal
Need a horror punk tree !!!!!!!!!
Misfits are NOT hardcore
I must be out of the loop or something, but what are these recent events about racism in metal?
+J.P. just google Phil Anselmo nazi salute, that's about it, I think.
Boston? DYS, Negative FX, Slapshot???
Poison idea??? Precursors!