From time to time and when I can find time I read comments made by viewers on my videos. This one says it all - thank you Rod Mills: 3 years ago: 'Nice one. If you can cut to a curved line then whats the problem with cutting to a straight line. Most people can't think out of the box'. You have given me the will to live again Rod!
I have woodworking for 30 years and i have done bandsawing for 20. and i do agree with you i dont use my fence... I have 2 bandsaws Ejca 40 cm throath, and Agazzani 60 cm throath capacity, both of them are industrialbandsaws. The most important thing on a bandsaw is the blade! If it just tweakt your bandsaw, the blade is sharp...you never need a fence.. //Swede
I inherited my dad's old Emco-Star some years ago, but I only really started using it this year. Made a circle-cutting jig for it this past weekend! I've not yet used a fence with it, but I was actually thinking it might be convenient to have one. My blade is relatively new - had to have some made up, of course - and wider than yours in this video, so I think I'm going to clamp a piece of wood to the back as a fence and cut a couple of pieces of ply scrap to see what happens...
I did NOT say free sawn edges should then be glued together. Obviously any innacuracy would be doubled! I should have added that the edges are then dressed (machine planed or sanded on a bench belt sander) to finally true up for edge jointing, but I thought that was obvious.
Hi thanks for posting. I use my little bandsaw often, but I make a point for accuracy of lowering the top guide as far as possible to prevent drifting, something you don't mention. Thanks again, keep all your fingers safe...
I don't mention that because it is a given that the blade guide should be close to the top of the stock, but iI have tried to explain the main reason - size of bandsaw on thick stock! It is about resistance and density of material in relation to blade length. A razor sharp blade is more crucial than the top guide being a few millimetres high!
Totallly agree. My bandsaw is a 1970's Sear's 14" - and no matter how wide the blade I put on it, or how perfectly I set it all up - the blade still wanders enough to ruin the work when using a fence. So when re-sawing I use a single point jig I made - basically like giant pin on a pin route -just something to help steady the piece. When cutting thinner stock I do it exactly like what you showed and then clean it up with an MDF pattern and pattern bit if really necessary. Basically though I don't cut that much straight stuff with the bandsaw lol.
I really like the idea (especially as I'm getting rid of the table saw now), though I can't get that accurate line quickly like you can, there's always a little wobble somewhere and my cut doesn't come out straight.
Believe me the more you work to a line the quicker it will be. But the beauty of the band saw is it is a gentle machine and most small band saw users are hobbyists, so is there a rush? The important rule in woodworking is to get it right first time and if you do not rush the cutting to the line there is less chance of having to strsighten that line afterwards (with a hand plane? At 1:40 I use a fence on a large band saw. My video focuses on small band saws.
Thanks for the video...gives me something to think about. I use my bandsaw to dimension solid wood since I do not have room for a jointer and planer. I rip and resaw my material against a fence with a feather board and then skim with a hand plane to clean up. My saw is a fairly decent 14" saw with 3/4" blade. I dedicate a 3/4" blade to this work- no curved cuts. So far, it is working, but I'll keep your experience in mind because, as the saw wears, blades wear, etc., maybe this will stop being effective for me.
Thanks for being receptive to my ideas. I find many woodworkers with such a closed 'conventional' mindset. I wouldn't share this method if it didn't work for me and by using efficient quick mdethods is how I made my living for many years. A large bandsaw is no problem but using a fence on a small bandsaw is only suitable for thin material. I am surprised I am out on a limb over this.
When you say "method", I think what you perfectly describe is using the right tool and the right setup for that job. I have an intermediate bandsaw, 12" x 8". It is pretty accruate and stout but with a less than perfect blade or awkward stock it will wander, and badly at times. When possible I do prefer to use the fence but if I have an old blade and an important cut to make then, like you, I will cut freehand to a scribed line.
Yes - the right tool is not always the traditional tool and woodworking is steeped in tradition. I like to call it the most efficient way to tackle a woodworking task and sometimes the most unconventional tool, or one designed to do a different job, is the the best and by efficient I also mean speed. Woodworking is notoriously and unnecessarily slow!
It appears from other videos that if you have a good bandsaw with a new blade with the blade running on the crown and the guides and table adjusted correctly, under the correct tension and the wheels coplanar ,or correctly not co planar, then the cut will stay parallel to the fence. I usually end up cutting freehand and compensating. I’ve just spent an hour trying to do that with a new blade, but it still cuts at 85 degrees, even crosscuts. I wonder if there is a quick way of setting the teeth.
A 'good' bandsaw is different to the size of the band saw (eg length of blade) which is the crucial factor I have tried to explain in my video. When a bandsaw is set up. Only larger bandsaws qwirh razor sharp blades cut efficiently and accurately with a fence as a guide. I would recommend using hardened tooth preset blades and not mess with adjusting the set yourself. The quality of the blade is important but the core issue is resistance (thickness and density) of the material and sharpness and length of the blade.
Its more a function of design; quality and setup of the bandsaw as to now accurate cuts with it is. Mine give near same quality of table saw except for the cut edge with fence. But then I have to change blades for best cuts with my table saw as well. But their are general purpose bladesfor both for good cuts. Snodgrass video shows how to set up. Often the real limit is throat of the bandsaw as far as rips and cross cuts.
View my video again please! its definitely not 'more a function of design,quality and setup,' its about the size of the bandsaw and specifically the length and gravitas of the blade!
I use my table saw for rip cuts without fence, so I don't think it's ok to use a bandsaw without fence (I've never used a bandsaw). The reason I don't use the fence is because it isn't parallel to the blade and the piece of wood I cut will get pinched between the blade and the fence
Then you should set up your table saw so that the fence is perfectly parallel. It is not difficult to do that. If you say you have never used a band saw how can you be the judge of whether no fence is bad practice?! Try watching the video and you might learn why on small band saws it is better to work to a line rather than use a fence as I have explained why in some detail. A band saw and circular saw are two different animals. Make sure you always use a guard on a table saw except when grooving. So many TH-cam videos show people using these dangerous saws without blade guards.
At last an inspired comment that follows precisely the logic I use! Thank you for making my day and my efforts worthwhile. I am only just beginning to realize the extent of narrow mindsets and prejudice in woodworking when in many other fields today what is common practice last year is obsolete this year! I realize my channel is not for everyone. I will be making a video on 'If you want to do tradition then do it properly' as so many claim to promote traditional methods but are 'tweaked' versions!
Yes Mark, a perfect use for ash dowels! With a machine of this age its hard finding parts. I had forgotten the fence on the table saw fits the bandsaw table. Maybe I will make another video actually looking closely at how the blade behaves when using the fence. Blade tension is absolutely crucial yet guesswork on most bandsaws.
In my modest opinion, bandsaws are notoriously difficult to set up correctly, getting a good blade, adjusting fence for drift, but when it's right it's one of the nicest machines to use.
Its not really a debate as Malcolm has stated, I'm demonstrating a fact ! But go on - be a true-to-form woodworker and fight it out. All those for fence on the left and all those who think outside the box on the right! Just because its tradition doesn't mean its right for all bandsaws! Manufacturers sell bandsaws with fences that can be taken off. I guarantee if they sold them without fences you would all be experts at cutting to the line quickly and accurately as I do and find it is almost as quick. I'm happy to do a speed comparison test when I have time using my big bandsaw because the small ones - guess what - the blade will wander and follow the grain not the line.
Hmmm, I'm a bit late to this debate Jeremy, and of course your title is clickbait, and doesn't represent the story, but I still gotta disagree. Drift is purely a function of setup, even for a junk saw and a dull blade. Get the tracking right, tension right, blade type right, and any saw will cut straight, and parallel to a fence. Line of sight is fine, and with skill, just about as good, but the notion that drift is somehow inevitable, and needs to be mitigated, has blighted the topic of the proper use of bandsaws for decades. What really pees me off is seeing reputable, high-end makers offering drift-adjustable fences! What deep dishonesty. Better to offer advice about setting their saws up properly. Why do they do this - because they've bought into the bullshit, in the interest of selling saws to home woodworkers who believe that drift is a thing they can't adjust-out. Shame.
My story does represent the title as it describes why a fence is useless on most smaller bandsaws.I allow comments to be made on my videos out of respect for democracy but please get your facts right - I have been using bandsaws for 40 plus years and very seldom use a fence on any of my bandsaws except for my really big one. They simple aren't strong enough to stop drift. A large bandsaw is a different ballgame and I suspect most TH-cam viewers don't own one. My video title is 95% truthful and therefore not just clickbait as you put it. Obviously I have to have a catchy title to get people to view but I do NOT deliberately mislead in the content.
Malcolm Macpherson. I think you both have good points to make but please do not tell me that any saw can cut straight and parallel to a fence ! If a band saw is low quality there is NOTHING you can do to make it cut right. I have worked in a great many workshops full time before setting up my own and i have seen it all, the good the bad and the shithouse. Most hobby saws are crap. Noisey rattling howling pieces of junk. There is nothing you can do to make them cut right. I have tried and failed on many that the boss refused to upgrade. On the shop floor such machines are called boat anchors but all to often the idiot running the business has no clue how much money he is loosing in added labour time. It took me five years to track down my bandsaw and snap it up. I refused to buy a new sheet metal one. They are a total waste of money. You get what you pay for with any woodworking machine. Because the bandsaw is deceptively simple people assume if its got two wheels and a tension adjustment it will work fine. Nope. You can tweak that bastard until the sun sets and you will never get it to run right. My advice to anyone who wants to get a proper working bandsaw is this. It must be cast iron from top to bottom with no steel base or idiots wheels. It must be at least 20” dia wheels and 3hp. Otherwise its just a piss ant hack saw. Pro’s rarely if ever give honest advice and most youtube ‘pro’s’ are self taught BS artists.
Precisely my point Brian and the main reason for sharing my experience in this video! If you accept a fence is detrimental to sawing parallel with most small or very cheap bandsaws then you can make the machine useful by NOT using the fence and my method of steering the wood to a marked line becomes quick in no time at all. Many woodworkers get stuck in a rigid mindset without questioning tradition! It doesn't have to be cast iron from top to bottom as that limits the market in terms of weight and cost, but it helps.
You lost me with the "even a dull blade will cut straight to a fence." AFAIC, band saw blades are predetermined to wear unevenly. In the left/right/raker set order, the right teeth dull way more than the left teeth. And in right/left/raker order the left set teeth always dull first. This causes the blade to drift a little on entry of the cut, and with a fence there is no way to correct for that once the blade is pulled slightly to one side. You can't adjust the angle of the table or blade for this, because once the back of the blade enters the kerf, the cut angle changes. Well maybe if you are using a really narrow band, you could cut str8 with tbe blade slightly angled. But you would have no beam strength for big rips. I am a cheapskate. I do not like to change blades at the first sign of drift. I have no problem tuning saw with a new blade. But even with a sharp blade with uneven tooth set, it is basically impossible to set the saw up once and make a variety of perfect cuts with a fence. And unless you are using a blade that wears symmetrically (wave set or a rakerless blade, or some other blade that I do not know of), a dull blade has an uneven set.
From time to time and when I can find time I read comments made by viewers on my videos. This one says it all - thank you Rod Mills:
3 years ago: 'Nice one. If you can cut to a curved line then whats the problem with cutting to a straight line. Most people can't think out of the box'. You have given me the will to live again Rod!
You were using your right hand as a guide at 3.00. So I think you have your very own fence system right there!
I have woodworking for 30 years and i have done bandsawing for 20. and i do agree with you i dont use my fence...
I have 2 bandsaws Ejca 40 cm throath, and Agazzani 60 cm throath capacity, both of them are industrialbandsaws.
The most important thing on a bandsaw is the blade! If it just tweakt your bandsaw, the blade is sharp...you never need a fence..
//Swede
Good video. I was having trouble with my 10" Rikon and the fence.
I inherited my dad's old Emco-Star some years ago, but I only really started using it this year. Made a circle-cutting jig for it this past weekend! I've not yet used a fence with it, but I was actually thinking it might be convenient to have one. My blade is relatively new - had to have some made up, of course - and wider than yours in this video, so I think I'm going to clamp a piece of wood to the back as a fence and cut a couple of pieces of ply scrap to see what happens...
Have you seen the video on my Emco Star?: th-cam.com/video/SaryINXQgYs/w-d-xo.html
I did NOT say free sawn edges should then be glued together. Obviously any innacuracy would be doubled! I should have added that the edges are then dressed (machine planed or sanded on a bench belt sander) to finally true up for edge jointing, but I thought that was obvious.
Hi thanks for posting. I use my little bandsaw often, but I make a point for accuracy of lowering the top guide as far as possible to prevent drifting, something you don't mention.
Thanks again, keep all your fingers safe...
I don't mention that because it is a given that the blade guide should be close to the top of the stock, but iI have tried to explain the main reason - size of bandsaw on thick stock! It is about resistance and density of material in relation to blade length. A razor sharp blade is more crucial than the top guide being a few millimetres high!
Totallly agree. My bandsaw is a 1970's Sear's 14" - and no matter how wide the blade I put on it, or how perfectly I set it all up - the blade still wanders enough to ruin the work when using a fence. So when re-sawing I use a single point jig I made - basically like giant pin on a pin route -just something to help steady the piece. When cutting thinner stock I do it exactly like what you showed and then clean it up with an MDF pattern and pattern bit if really necessary. Basically though I don't cut that much straight stuff with the bandsaw lol.
I really like the idea (especially as I'm getting rid of the table saw now), though I can't get that accurate line quickly like you can, there's always a little wobble somewhere and my cut doesn't come out straight.
Believe me the more you work to a line the quicker it will be. But the beauty of the band saw is it is a gentle machine and most small band saw users are hobbyists, so is there a rush? The important rule in woodworking is to get it right first time and if you do not rush the cutting to the line there is less chance of having to strsighten that line afterwards (with a hand plane? At 1:40 I use a fence on a large band saw. My video focuses on small band saws.
Thanks for the video...gives me something to think about. I use my bandsaw to dimension solid wood since I do not have room for a jointer and planer. I rip and resaw my material against a fence with a feather board and then skim with a hand plane to clean up. My saw is a fairly decent 14" saw with 3/4" blade. I dedicate a 3/4" blade to this work- no curved cuts. So far, it is working, but I'll keep your experience in mind because, as the saw wears, blades wear, etc., maybe this will stop being effective for me.
Thanks for being receptive to my ideas. I find many woodworkers with such a closed 'conventional' mindset. I wouldn't share this method if it didn't work for me and by using efficient quick mdethods is how I made my living for many years. A large bandsaw is no problem but using a fence on a small bandsaw is only suitable for thin material. I am surprised I am out on a limb over this.
Thanks Jeremy, im new to using a bandsaw and very helpful. cheers
Jeremy, thanks again for another great tip. Also, I love your intro music.
A jolly good video with spot on tips for the methodical woodworker...
When you say "method", I think what you perfectly describe is using the right tool and the right setup for that job. I have an intermediate bandsaw, 12" x 8". It is pretty accruate and stout but with a less than perfect blade or awkward stock it will wander, and badly at times.
When possible I do prefer to use the fence but if I have an old blade and an important cut to make then, like you, I will cut freehand to a scribed line.
Yes - the right tool is not always the traditional tool and woodworking is steeped in tradition. I like to call it the most efficient way to tackle a woodworking task and sometimes the most unconventional tool, or one designed to do a different job, is the the best and by efficient I also mean speed. Woodworking is notoriously and unnecessarily slow!
Well-stated, good advice.
It appears from other videos that if you have a good bandsaw with a new blade with the blade running on the crown and the guides and table adjusted correctly, under the correct tension and the wheels coplanar ,or correctly not co planar, then the cut will stay parallel to the fence. I usually end up cutting freehand and compensating. I’ve just spent an hour trying to do that with a new blade, but it still cuts at 85 degrees, even crosscuts. I wonder if there is a quick way of setting the teeth.
A 'good' bandsaw is different to the size of the band saw (eg length of blade) which is the crucial factor I have tried to explain in my video. When a bandsaw is set up. Only larger bandsaws qwirh razor sharp blades cut efficiently and accurately with a fence as a guide. I would recommend using hardened tooth preset blades and not mess with adjusting the set yourself. The quality of the blade is important but the core issue is resistance (thickness and density) of the material and sharpness and length of the blade.
MY BANDSAW LEAVES A ROUGH FINISH ON THE WOOD AND THAT IS WITH A BRAND NEW BLADE ANY IDEAS AS TO WHAT WOULD CAUSE THIS.
It sounds as though the tooth pitch is too coarse (tips per inch).
Its more a function of design; quality and setup of the bandsaw as to now accurate cuts with it is. Mine give near same quality of table saw except for the cut edge with fence. But then I have to change blades for best cuts with my table saw as well. But their are general purpose bladesfor both for good cuts. Snodgrass video shows how to set up. Often the real limit is throat of the bandsaw as far as rips and cross cuts.
View my video again please! its definitely not 'more a function of design,quality and setup,' its about the size of the bandsaw and specifically the length and gravitas of the blade!
Thumbs up for the plywood car too.
I use my table saw for rip cuts without fence, so I don't think it's ok to use a bandsaw without fence (I've never used a bandsaw). The reason I don't use the fence is because it isn't parallel to the blade and the piece of wood I cut will get pinched between the blade and the fence
Then you should set up your table saw so that the fence is perfectly parallel. It is not difficult to do that. If you say you have never used a band saw how can you be the judge of whether no fence is bad practice?! Try watching the video and you might learn why on small band saws it is better to work to a line rather than use a fence as I have explained why in some detail. A band saw and circular saw are two different animals. Make sure you always use a guard on a table saw except when grooving. So many TH-cam videos show people using these dangerous saws without blade guards.
good videos and i enjoy the music.
I don't have a band saw, but maybe one day, so this video is excellent advice for me. Thank you.
Nice one. If you can cut to a curved line then whats the problem with cutting to a straight line. Most people can't think out of the box. 🤣😂😁😀😎
At last an inspired comment that follows precisely the logic I use! Thank you for making my day and my efforts worthwhile. I am only just beginning to realize the extent of narrow mindsets and prejudice in woodworking when in many other fields today what is common practice last year is obsolete this year! I realize my channel is not for everyone. I will be making a video on 'If you want to do tradition then do it properly' as so many claim to promote traditional methods but are 'tweaked' versions!
Big like!👍👍👍👍👍✅💪Felicitări! Great video 👍
Thank you for this. Sub’d
Spot on, good tip as usual
Mitch Peacock - WOmadeOD Pelle mécanique
My Ryobi bandsaw has a broken guide casting. It works for now, just can't adjust it anymore.
like the improvised cool blocks/guides on the Emco.
Yes Mark, a perfect use for ash dowels! With a machine of this age its hard finding parts. I had forgotten the fence on the table saw fits the bandsaw table. Maybe I will make another video actually looking closely at how the blade behaves when using the fence. Blade tension is absolutely crucial yet guesswork on most bandsaws.
In my modest opinion, bandsaws are notoriously difficult to set up correctly, getting a good blade, adjusting fence for drift, but when it's right it's one of the nicest machines to use.
Yes I agree with what you say. My number two machine/tool to a router!
More explanation??
What do you mean?
I rarely use one myself either. I think it has to do with a multitude of reasons. Blade type and sharpness bandsaw quality and alignment.
I can't disagree with that cutting job!
Its not really a debate as Malcolm has stated, I'm demonstrating a fact ! But go on - be a true-to-form woodworker and fight it out. All those for fence on the left and all those who think outside the box on the right! Just because its tradition doesn't mean its right for all bandsaws! Manufacturers sell bandsaws with fences that can be taken off. I guarantee if they sold them without fences you would all be experts at cutting to the line quickly and accurately as I do and find it is almost as quick. I'm happy to do a speed comparison test when I have time using my big bandsaw because the small ones - guess what - the blade will wander and follow the grain not the line.
Thanks
It looks like your using your fingers as a fence.....
Yes I use my fingers as a guide and the action is like riding a bicycle - constantly steering from left to right to maintain a straight line.
Hmmm, I'm a bit late to this debate Jeremy, and of course your title is clickbait, and doesn't represent the story, but I still gotta disagree.
Drift is purely a function of setup, even for a junk saw and a dull blade. Get the tracking right, tension right, blade type right, and any saw will cut straight, and parallel to a fence.
Line of sight is fine, and with skill, just about as good, but the notion that drift is somehow inevitable, and needs to be mitigated, has blighted the topic of the proper use of bandsaws for decades. What really pees me off is seeing reputable, high-end makers offering drift-adjustable fences! What deep dishonesty. Better to offer advice about setting their saws up properly. Why do they do this - because they've bought into the bullshit, in the interest of selling saws to home woodworkers who believe that drift is a thing they can't adjust-out. Shame.
My story does represent the title as it describes why a fence is useless on most smaller bandsaws.I allow comments to be made on my videos out of respect for democracy but please get your facts right - I have been using bandsaws for 40 plus years and very seldom use a fence on any of my bandsaws except for my really big one. They simple aren't strong enough to stop drift. A large bandsaw is a different ballgame and I suspect most TH-cam viewers don't own one. My video title is 95% truthful and therefore not just clickbait as you put it. Obviously I have to have a catchy title to get people to view but I do NOT deliberately mislead in the content.
Malcolm Macpherson. I think you both have good points to make but please do not tell me that any saw can cut straight and parallel to a fence ! If a band saw is low quality there is NOTHING you can do to make it cut right. I have worked in a great many workshops full time before setting up my own and i have seen it all, the good the bad and the shithouse. Most hobby saws are crap. Noisey rattling howling pieces of junk. There is nothing you can do to make them cut right. I have tried and failed on many that the boss refused to upgrade. On the shop floor such machines are called boat anchors but all to often the idiot running the business has no clue how much money he is loosing in added labour time. It took me five years to track down my bandsaw and snap it up. I refused to buy a new sheet metal one. They are a total waste of money.
You get what you pay for with any woodworking machine. Because the bandsaw is deceptively simple people assume if its got two wheels and a tension adjustment it will work fine. Nope. You can tweak that bastard until the sun sets and you will never get it to run right.
My advice to anyone who wants to get a proper working bandsaw is this. It must be cast iron from top to bottom with no steel base or idiots wheels. It must be at least 20” dia wheels and 3hp. Otherwise its just a piss ant hack saw.
Pro’s rarely if ever give honest advice and most youtube ‘pro’s’ are self taught BS artists.
Precisely my point Brian and the main reason for sharing my experience in this video! If you accept a fence is detrimental to sawing parallel with most small or very cheap bandsaws then you can make the machine useful by NOT using the fence and my method of steering the wood to a marked line becomes quick in no time at all. Many woodworkers get stuck in a rigid mindset without questioning tradition! It doesn't have to be cast iron from top to bottom as that limits the market in terms of weight and cost, but it helps.
You lost me with the "even a dull blade will cut straight to a fence." AFAIC, band saw blades are predetermined to wear unevenly. In the left/right/raker set order, the right teeth dull way more than the left teeth. And in right/left/raker order the left set teeth always dull first. This causes the blade to drift a little on entry of the cut, and with a fence there is no way to correct for that once the blade is pulled slightly to one side. You can't adjust the angle of the table or blade for this, because once the back of the blade enters the kerf, the cut angle changes. Well maybe if you are using a really narrow band, you could cut str8 with tbe blade slightly angled. But you would have no beam strength for big rips.
I am a cheapskate. I do not like to change blades at the first sign of drift. I have no problem tuning saw with a new blade. But even with a sharp blade with uneven tooth set, it is basically impossible to set the saw up once and make a variety of perfect cuts with a fence. And unless you are using a blade that wears symmetrically (wave set or a rakerless blade, or some other blade that I do not know of), a dull blade has an uneven set.
Thank's for the video and for all the advice you gave!
At the next! #PaoloBradaDIY
I no longer ever will buy Ryobi. I've had several of their tools fall apart in my hand while in use. Cheap is never good.
i always use free hand .
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only free thinker!!
They don't call them Cryobi for nuthin.
Belva progressing well I see.
Yes joe, slowly slowly catchy...