We used the TD4 PID we assembled here in the shop. Check out all the accessories for the Mighty Mini and more on Mile High site at www.milehidistilling.com
Especially liked this video because of how George explained each temperature setting and showed how the still when held at 169F will stop producing after all the methanol boils out before turning it up to 173F or slightly more for the ethanol (good stuff) to start boiling out. I've never had this explained to me before in such detail and use to think that i should just aim for the 173F and toss the first two ounces. now I much better understand the process, Thank you George! and Happy Distilling:)
Excellent video George. Here's a little tip for you. To help make things easier in terms of the water pump and condenser, grab some chemical tolerant hoses instead of the usual pvc hoses. They're more flexible and tend to "stay put" while you are in the middle of a run.
I'm guessing that the larger the volume of the boiler the easier it is to keep and maintain a stable temperature as the heat source would have less affect on the larger volume of wash.
thanks for the great video. II have an 8G Vivor reflux still like the one that you have with the 'football'. I'm installing a 5500W heating element to use with my home made PID controller. I needed to see where to put my temp control probe, and after watching your video, I'm guess that I will put it in the side of the 'football' level with the exit to the condenser..? I'm hoping that I can copy your numbers to try to run the still once I have it put together. Thanks again. ~Bob
I don’t know if I caught it. Is this a very clean distillate that you’re using? Since you’re using electricity and copper packing? Really great information i’m hooked on your shows!
Hi George, Thank you for the most informative set of videos. Here is a question: The big commercial stills use "continuous distillation" over heated plates. How do they control the heads and tails?
I'm using a PID controller with the mighty mini 3 gallon boiler and noticed surges in distillate were more pronounced. Some of these pushed vapor out the condenser. I started using the stovetop at mid levels to smooth this out and it works fine. I think if I were to work with an 8 gallon or larger boiler I'd want 2 heaters. I'd connect one to the PID and the other to a manual control so that it would smooth out the vapor flow.
Which do you like more the Amperage controller or the PID controller? Is the PID using more energy with it turning off and on so much? I like the PID idea since it is more beginner proof . Thanks for your videos
I really prefer the PID since it does operate through a solid state relay where there are no mechanical contacts and because of that it operates very efficient and without any spark or degradation over time. The PID does turn on and off and during fine tuning from the PID in the circuit it acts somewhat as an amperage controller and this is evident by its power output display (the TA4 has this feature). All in all I find it very beginner friendly and very efficient. George
George, great videos! Off topic here, I am wondering if you think this would control a hot water boiler for heating a home very good? I don’t know if you have any knowledge of how they work, there controlled off an aquastat. What do you think?
They would be but I would use it in a more direct mode instead of a full PID function. A water heater does not require the fine tuning the PID offers but the PID can function as a very stable thermostat for your water heater. In fact that is an excellent idea and application for these.
So I took physics and chemistry in college and spent a lot of money sending my kids to college. Just sayin’. Evidently much more could have been learned making moonshine.
This may be a bit over the top, but what about a PID controller to control a 12v diaphragm pump ($20 item) to control condenser flow? The thermocouple would sense the water return and activate the pump just enough to keep the condenser of constant temperature.
Well, at least you are looking at this from all angles. This would be possible but I would ask "what would this much effort save or serve you?" Good idea but maybe a little over engineering George
George, i am running a similar process on a reflux still. For your reference temperature point are you measuring vapor temperature or mash temperature? Im having an issue with my reflux still bouncing around setpoint when i measure vapor temperature. It fluxuates by about 10 degrees Celsius. Im thinking i need a better tune on my controller?
Yes it is vapor temp. Your reflux water flow may be contributing to your issues. The water flow should be a trickle of water. You don't want to condense the vapor in the chamber. You only need to pre-condense it. Hope that makes sense. George
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing thanks George! I havent run wather through the coil yet. Ive been just playing with the control side using just water as my medium. It makes sense that the flow through the condenser coil would stabilize the vapor temperature allowing my pid to better control. Thanks again!
Really depend on how far up you need to pump. A small fountain pump will do just fine but the water jug needs to be about as high as the condenser so you are pumping across instead of up. I use a standard waterfall pump that pumps 529 gallons per hour. That is overkill but adequate for any set up. They run around $20-25 on amazon. Plus they can lift a good deal (around 8 feet is the limit)
hi george, norm here. do you want and need the water pump to be plugged into the pid? does it slow down and speed up the power to pump as well. sorry for question if you already answered this. im studying these videos alot. they are great. thank you so much. norm
I could but there are so many recipes for this and it is super easy to do. Apple Pie moonshine is the result of what you do with the final distillate. It is really a mixing mission as opposed to a distilling mission.
Anybody run with an AGPtEK TA4-SSR ? If so are you OK with it ? If I don't hear bad about it I guess I'll be the guinea pig and try one for my first. Might as well start with the tech available. Hopes high, . . expectations more measured, lol.
Not sure I would do that. The Pic titanium is digitally controlled so a PID would be controlling a controller. Not sure I would do that. Series controllers can cause unexpected results.
Your PID and SSR are designed to work by turning on the heating element on and off. That said, do you think if you had a PID that would control the heating element by varying the power would be more accurate/stable?
I run into comments like these almost daily and I always leave them up so others can rad them. If you read more about how a PID operates you would understand how it works.
The SSR can be switched on/off up to 20 times per second. The heat transfer from the heater element to the heater sheath buffers theses pulses of energy. With proper PID controller settings, the end result is VERY stable heat at the heater wall.
I know how a PID works. What I dont know as well is how a still works with them. It seems to me that a still likes steady even heat. Furthermore temp control of a still head with a PID is fairly worthless since that temp is changing all the time with different concentrations of EtOH. This makes a PID less than idea. However, using a PID to control cooling water and effecting the reflux ratio is a great idea. Again the control will need to be linear. Not on/off even if it is 20 times a second.
James, I respect your opinion but couldn't disagree more. The PID is an excellent controller for a pot still. Even at 20 X a second the changing is imperceptible and smooth. This allows for a very controlled temperature at the head which is an indication that the column is in balance and producing efficiently. Controlling the water is another story and I would not recommend a PID for that. George
As far as a PID controlling at 20 times a second or 100 is of little notice because the thermal mas of the wash will act as a temperature buffer.That makes scense. But how do you control the temperature of at the top of it when when it cannot be any hotter or cooler depending on how much EtOH concentration is in it. It would be more of a matter of heat input, not temperature control. This would make a PID frivolous. For example, regular water can only boil at 212F no matter how much heat is applied. The only difference is the amount of vapor produced. If this steam/vapor travel up a column is can only be 212F max. Being that there is some EtOH in the wash the boiling temp will be somewhere below 212F and slowly rise till it the EtOH is gone. The same will happen in the column head. So why control temp when the temp of the vapors must rise at an uncontrollable and constant rate?
A PID is great for maintaining a set temperature but that's not how a still runs. The temperature requirements of the mash in the boiler change as the chemistry changes during distilling. As more ethanol is extracted from the mash and more water is left behind one has to increase the temperature of the mash in order to draw off more ethanol. This is the art of running a still, knowing when and how to increase the temperature in relationship to the amount of distillate coming out of the condenser. You still have to use a PID as you would a variable controller by manually increasing the temperature during the distilling process. That being said, I don't see any advantage to using a PID over a variable controller when running a still.
Especially liked this video because of how George explained each temperature setting and showed how the still when held at 169F will stop producing after all the methanol boils out before turning it up to 173F or slightly more for the ethanol (good stuff) to start boiling out. I've never had this explained to me before in such detail and use to think that i should just aim for the 173F and toss the first two ounces. now I much better understand the process, Thank you George! and Happy Distilling:)
Excellent video George. Here's a little tip for you. To help make things easier in terms of the water pump and condenser, grab some chemical tolerant hoses instead of the usual pvc hoses. They're more flexible and tend to "stay put" while you are in the middle of a run.
We miss you George.
Great video
George, if you set up a live stream on a Friday or Saturday night I’d sit down and watch the whole 3 hour run lol.
Thanks for all the work
excellent! thank you for sharing the knowlege! happy distilling!
Thank you, George!
George! You rock! Thx!
Beautiful
I'm guessing that the larger the volume of the boiler the easier it is to keep and maintain a stable temperature as the heat source would have less affect on the larger volume of wash.
thanks for the great video. II have an 8G Vivor reflux still like the one that you have with the 'football'. I'm installing a 5500W heating element to use with my home made PID controller. I needed to see where to put my temp control probe, and after watching your video, I'm guess that I will put it in the side of the 'football' level with the exit to the condenser..? I'm hoping that I can copy your numbers to try to run the still once I have it put together. Thanks again.
~Bob
I don’t know if I caught it. Is this a very clean distillate that you’re using? Since you’re using electricity and copper packing? Really great information i’m hooked on your shows!
George, you should assemble and sell those completed PID controllers.
what hot plate and pid controller would you recommend
Are the ones on amazon just as effective?
Barley & Hops; Can you use a thyristor voltage regulator in conjunction with a PID and SSR?
Hi George, Thank you for the most informative set of videos. Here is a question: The big commercial stills use "continuous distillation" over heated plates. How do they control the heads and tails?
They don’t. All of it goes in the bottle.
norm here, i paid more attention, answered my own question. thanks
I like this guy...sub'ed
Hello George. How long would you suggest the thermo probe be?
I'm using a PID controller with the mighty mini 3 gallon boiler and noticed surges in distillate were more pronounced. Some of these pushed vapor out the condenser. I started using the stovetop at mid levels to smooth this out and it works fine. I think if I were to work with an 8 gallon or larger boiler I'd want 2 heaters. I'd connect one to the PID and the other to a manual control so that it would smooth out the vapor flow.
Did you run the auto calibration ?
Can u suggest an hot plate heater for a 8 gallon still and use the pid controller
how much for a prebuilt pid with the 2000w heater element
Which do you like more the Amperage controller or the PID controller? Is the PID using more energy with it turning off and on so much? I like the PID idea since it is more beginner proof . Thanks for your videos
I really prefer the PID since it does operate through a solid state relay where there are no mechanical contacts and because of that it operates very efficient and without any spark or degradation over time. The PID does turn on and off and during fine tuning from the PID in the circuit it acts somewhat as an amperage controller and this is evident by its power output display (the TA4 has this feature). All in all I find it very beginner friendly and very efficient.
George
George, great videos! Off topic here, I am wondering if you think this would control a hot water boiler for heating a home very good? I don’t know if you have any knowledge of how they work, there controlled off an aquastat. What do you think?
They would be but I would use it in a more direct mode instead of a full PID function. A water heater does not require the fine tuning the PID offers but the PID can function as a very stable thermostat for your water heater. In fact that is an excellent idea and application for these.
PV and SV are for Prosess Value, and Set Value.
Yes they are. Thanks. I mentioned that several times and then explain that perceived value means the same thing as Process value.
Process Variable...and Set Point. PV and SP
Is it the tails that cause the louche effect?
hey quick question: can you keep your tails and use a clearing agent (ie turbo clear) to seperate and then
'rack' the distillate off that?
You use foreshots and heads for cleaning. Tails are too weak to be any good.
So I took physics and chemistry in college and spent a lot of money sending my kids to college. Just sayin’. Evidently much more could have been learned making moonshine.
This may be a bit over the top, but what about a PID controller to control a 12v diaphragm pump ($20 item) to control condenser flow? The thermocouple would sense the water return and activate the pump just enough to keep the condenser of constant temperature.
Well, at least you are looking at this from all angles. This would be possible but I would ask "what would this much effort save or serve you?"
Good idea but maybe a little over engineering
George
for the PID have/can one of the prewired PIDS work, or should you build a setup?
Pre-made PIDs should work just fine
George, i am running a similar process on a reflux still. For your reference temperature point are you measuring vapor temperature or mash temperature? Im having an issue with my reflux still bouncing around setpoint when i measure vapor temperature. It fluxuates by about 10 degrees Celsius. Im thinking i need a better tune on my controller?
Yes it is vapor temp. Your reflux water flow may be contributing to your issues. The water flow should be a trickle of water. You don't want to condense the vapor in the chamber. You only need to pre-condense it. Hope that makes sense.
George
@@BarleyandHopsBrewing thanks George! I havent run wather through the coil yet. Ive been just playing with the control side using just water as my medium. It makes sense that the flow through the condenser coil would stabilize the vapor temperature allowing my pid to better control. Thanks again!
What size water pump would be needed for a 2 inch shotgun condenser on a 15 gal still?
Really depend on how far up you need to pump. A small fountain pump will do just fine but the water jug needs to be about as high as the condenser so you are pumping across instead of up.
I use a standard waterfall pump that pumps 529 gallons per hour. That is overkill but adequate for any set up. They run around $20-25 on amazon. Plus they can lift a good deal (around 8 feet is the limit)
where to find the PID olease
How about add an alarm to the set temp so when u get your temp the alarm will sound and then set temp to your next setting
That is possible and very easy.
Do you reuse the copper or discard and cut new ones for each distilling session?
Rinsed out and re-used
why did you choose not to run water through the pre-condenser?
I was running this as a pot still and not as a reflux still.
hi george, norm here. do you want and need the water pump to be plugged into the pid? does it slow down and speed up the power to pump as well. sorry for question if you already answered this. im studying these videos alot. they are great. thank you so much. norm
He only has the element wire to the PID the bottom plug is powered separate from the PID
How do you seal the heater element at the pot wall? the coil is flat and the pot is round?
The Mile Hi heating element is attached to a 2" flat plate that seals it against the fitting in the pot wall.
Can you do a video on making an apple pie moonshine from start to finish.
I could but there are so many recipes for this and it is super easy to do. Apple Pie moonshine is the result of what you do with the final distillate. It is really a mixing mission as opposed to a distilling mission.
how do you clean your copper mesh?
You can soak it in vinegar and water. I use some Tarn-x (Walmart has it) to rinse the mesh clean and then wash/soak it in warm soapy water.
George
Anybody run with an AGPtEK TA4-SSR ? If so are you OK with it ? If I don't hear bad about it I guess I'll be the guinea pig and try one for my first. Might as well start with the tech available. Hopes high, . . expectations more measured, lol.
Have you ever tried running your pic titanium with a pid
Not sure I would do that. The Pic titanium is digitally controlled so a PID would be controlling a controller. Not sure I would do that. Series controllers can cause unexpected results.
Ok I was looking at finding a way to get more control of the temperature while cooking
Quick comment to help the algorithm
Your PID and SSR are designed to work by turning on the heating element on and off. That said, do you think if you had a PID that would control the heating element by varying the power would be more accurate/stable?
I run into comments like these almost daily and I always leave them up so others can rad them. If you read more about how a PID operates you would understand how it works.
The SSR can be switched on/off up to 20 times per second. The heat transfer from the heater element to the heater sheath buffers theses pulses of energy. With proper PID controller settings, the end result is VERY stable heat at the heater wall.
I know how a PID works. What I dont know as well is how a still works with them. It seems to me that a still likes steady even heat. Furthermore temp control of a still head with a PID is fairly worthless since that temp is changing all the time with different concentrations of EtOH. This makes a PID less than idea. However, using a PID to control cooling water and effecting the reflux ratio is a great idea. Again the control will need to be linear. Not on/off even if it is 20 times a second.
James, I respect your opinion but couldn't disagree more. The PID is an excellent controller for a pot still. Even at 20 X a second the changing is imperceptible and smooth. This allows for a very controlled temperature at the head which is an indication that the column is in balance and producing efficiently.
Controlling the water is another story and I would not recommend a PID for that.
George
As far as a PID controlling at 20 times a second or 100 is of little notice because the thermal mas of the wash will act as a temperature buffer.That makes scense. But how do you control the temperature of at the top of it when when it cannot be any hotter or cooler depending on how much EtOH concentration is in it. It would be more of a matter of heat input, not temperature control. This would make a PID frivolous. For example, regular water can only boil at 212F no matter how much heat is applied. The only difference is the amount of vapor produced. If this steam/vapor travel up a column is can only be 212F max. Being that there is some EtOH in the wash the boiling temp will be somewhere below 212F and slowly rise till it the EtOH is gone. The same will happen in the column head. So why control temp when the temp of the vapors must rise at an uncontrollable and constant rate?
A PID is great for maintaining a set temperature but that's not how a still runs. The temperature requirements of the mash in the boiler change as the chemistry changes during distilling. As more ethanol is extracted from the mash and more water is left behind one has to increase the temperature of the mash in order to draw off more ethanol. This is the art of running a still, knowing when and how to increase the temperature in relationship to the amount of distillate coming out of the condenser. You still have to use a PID as you would a variable controller by manually increasing the temperature during the distilling process. That being said, I don't see any advantage to using a PID over a variable controller when running a still.