All I ever played was Medieval and Empire (because my PC is too bad), but with mods such as DaC, EB2, SSHIP and PUA, so that's future Total War titles are just so confusing. - Adûnâi
Me smiling ear to ear with having these three in the same discord call. What a moment in history. Let’s hope it starts a spark and catches a fuse to ignite something towards the total war developers. Time to make a coffee and enjoy three of the greats to talk to us all.
@@PixelatedApollo1hell yeah brother, I need to pick a bone with you not saving that little dark age total war edit before it got copyright striked down out of existence! 🫠
@Volound I would love to see you, Legend, and PA bring on a rotating 4th chair (like pilps) to talk about RTT and RTS in general. Could be a great series of talks. That 4th chair need not be just a TW guy either. I can see a eugen player like VulcanHD or a paradox guy like Tommy K or bittersteel bringing in a ton of jumping off points in terms of talking about where this genre deserves to go.
HIGHLY unpopular opinion: Napoleon is when total war began its downfall. Rather than fixing all the issues Empire had they simply stripped out all the features with issues (such as firing types). Its not "Empire without the bugs" its Empire without the features that needed to be fixed. Edit: Also I'm not saying Napoleon is bad. Im simply saying that it seems to he when CA started its "Produce less, dont fix, rehash, sell" model
Napoleon though I enjoyed It was the first Total War game where I actually had doubts and major dislikes about the game, mainly how small the campaign map was and units auto replenishing, when we'd just come from Empire though janky and new, It had a fairly ambition campaign map that I loved. Shogun 2 after made me forget about It but, Napoleon Is deffo up there with one my least favourite TW games.
100% I also view napoleon as the beginning of the end. Empire was a HUGE misstep, but it retained the spirit of TW, it had ambition, it kept the pseudo-historical feeling of combat (putting aside the AI behaviour). I loved empire despite it's flaws, and I really hated napoleon. Instead of fixing their broken game it feels like they gave up on the engine, created a new, scaled down game and sold it to us with a whole bunch of features missing and all of the ambition gone. I will say that I think the reason I'm typically not happy with volound's "fantasy (or it's fans) is ruining TW" rhetoric is that TW's downfall started way before then, and everyone bought it. People continued to consoom (myself included). I also think a lot of his criticisms of Warhammer (II) can easily be applied to shogun 2. Both games that were polished up to a good state for their respective playerbases, but both running on the same fundamentally broken engine and whilst Shogun II was an undeniably good game, a lot of the things that I don't like about it are similar to the things I don't like about the warhammer series. Warhammer is just a continuance of existing trends imo.
Napoleon was clearly supposed to be an expansion to Empire just like the Americas Campaign was but they split it off to a stand alone due to the negative feedback to Empire Total War.
I think the biggest problem, which you guys have really highlighted, is that the games have become HP and stats dominated rather than morale and tactics dominated. Units often run out of HP before they run out of morale, and will often run out of morale when they are almost completely dead.
Yep. When you are designing a game you have basicaly 2 approaches. Are you going to design it more as an arcade game - with many gamefied elements, like HP, stat numbers levels etc. Or are you going to do more of a simulation. Now ofc - these are games and are always somewhere in the middle, but they can tip one way or the other. Old TW games - pre-Warhammer - or should I say pre-Shogun 2, were about in the middle of the road. But with Shogun 2 it started to lean more heavily towards the arcade feeling. And once Warhammer got here - it's an arcade game. Let me be clear - there's no TW game where battles would meet historical criteria to me that would be decent. But old games were constrained by technology. And for their time they achieved amazing resutls. And when technology improved, I was hoping the way to simulate battles would just get better. But no.
lol and this is the actual reason theres a schism between warhammer fans and history fans. It's literally more than just about the fantasy vs history setting or "rose tinted glasses", its the fact warhammer plays way too differently for most history fans to enjoy. In Medieval 2, a cavalry charge at the right time can either make or break an entire battle. In Shogun 2, you have to constantly maneuver your units due to how fast units rout and die off. In Napoleon Total War (at least mainly in MP since E:TW and N:TW AI sucks balls), both armies will actively try to fight for good positions like hills, buildings and even fences so people just don't stand around as that means they'll be at a disadvantage. In Fall of the Samurai, good formation for infantry units can allow even a small army to beat doom stacks. Meanwhile in Warhammer which took the whole stats bullshit from Rome 2 (which is still terrible to this day without mods)...
More precisely it's now weight dominated. Anything with enough weight can run through anything. Even phoenix guard or chosen halberd can't stop any mid-tier chariot or monster if they're charging.
opposite for me i stayed up (early riser with busted sleep schedule lol). i think i start mixing up my words with saying medieval 3 when i mean warhammer 3 later and that does my head in listening back. thanks to you and legend for the great convo. hope we can get to do more.
@@termitreter6545 Selling blood for a Warhammer game not only feels like a cheap scam, it pretty much IS one. A scam that CA has been pulling for 3 games now.
It also has many other systems/rules that work better than in TW Warhammer. Things like: armour, armour piercing, fight in extra ranks. The magic and spells are more interesting and varied in tabletop.
I always thought its funny when people (eg on the reddit) argue that having no moral is more true to "total war", because its dark and bloody and stuff. Yet in reality Tabletop actually has more depths than that.
@@termitreter6545 Well, SOME factions had to worry about morale more than others. A consistent problem GW seems to have with the mechanic regardless of whether its fantasy or 40k. Some armies just never have to worry about morale and others are constantly juggling morale being a big problem, to minor problem, to no problem at all.
CA selling blood DLCs for every one of their games is like buying fries from somewhere and having them not add salt to the fries and then charging you for a salt package. What?? No one would tolerate that business practice, but gamers do for some reason.
It makes me laugh, because I have a good number of DLC from TW Warhammer 1 and 2, and all the DLC from Shogun 2, but I'll never buy the blood DLC because there is less than no value in it for me. Not only is it cosmetic only, but my understanding is that all those decals have a noticeable frame rate impact to boot.
There's no real competition for people who want a total war game. The quasi-monopoly is why people keep up with it... and why we still care about the studio.
they are selling blood dlc separately because otherwise they would have to up the games maturity ranking to fit german legal demands And higher maturity ranking would mean a bunch of ways to market the game would be closed to them Still feels scummy, but not "entirely" their fault
Apollo said something very important here: the key is to vote with your wallet. If that means CA going bust, so be it. In economics this is called creative (pun intended) destruction: the old have to keep up or give room for the new. CA does not owe us players anything else than the product we buy. If we buy it, it on us, not them.
Really wish we could convince more people about this, specifically the ones that are willing to excuse everything a heartless corporation would do for misguided reasons. Maybe it'll end the era of shitty cash grab games, but maybe not since they'll still have so much new, naive players to bamboozle.
There won't be another CA anytime soon. There isn't a big enough market for niche games like the historical total wars, and modern engines aren't designed for it. Feel free to vote with your wallet, but if CA falls the genre is effectively dead.
@ Doubt it. There are much more nichier games with better and more specializes engines than Total War. Look at Eugen Systems games for example, which have a tiny player base compared to TW. And even if you are right, if CA can't produce games worth playing even with current demand, why would putting your hard earned money into them chamge the situation? Essentially what you are saying is that there is not enough demand for competition and thus no insentive for CA to even try. If anything, this is an even greater reason to vote eith your wallet.
What makes the battles special is the campaign providing context and meaning to them. You liked your best general because of all the battles he'd helped you win with his bonuses especially in the morale department, and it was sad when he died and you had to work with less capable alternatives. The lack of consequences now has made the battles too frequent and meaningless. If you win a big battle, you should be able to seize a fairly large amount of territory including probably several cities, or get some sort of peace treaty. Instead you have to fight as many as 3-10 manual battles to defeat even minor opponents. This also extends to the large free garrisons that get stuffed in cities. Most cities should just surrender without an army to protect it, but instead you need to manually play out or autocalc a siege for every single settlement. The battles are virtually always the same scale, repetitive, boring, played on the same few small maps, and only have consequences only for the player due to designed army and economic limits that only apply to the player.
Yes which was the formula 20 years ago when it was pushing the boundaries of tech. Now it is the exact same just with better graphics. How are they pushing the tech now? With all their millions in sales?
Holy shit. Never thought I would see the day that Legend of Total War would talk about the Voldemort of Total War let alone speak directly to you. Strange times we live in.
musta missed out the DMCA drama when CA filed a fraudulent DMCA to give me a strike and it failed completely and legend pointed out how scummy it was publically over and over again (which really pissed off CA)
@Volound Oh no, I remembered that. Good on him for doing so, but that was like. The exception that proved the rule at the time. A display of overreach by CA that anybody with a working brain could see is bad. Even if it happens to someone """"""""""""bad"""""""""""" in the community. Prior to that and up to this point outside of that. No one else that's intimate with this IP ever borrowed to mention your name, let alone acknowledge your criticisms. I imagine on fear of getting Reddit on their ass and black listed by CA. As far as I know, that is. If that makes things much clearer.
yeah id spent years critiquing the games and really didnt get much support or agreement for most of that, especially the start. apollo was pretty much the only person (for a good long while) that was willing to publically admit i was fundamentally right about everything. we go through some aspects of this later on and hash it out.
@@Volound Glad to hear. If more of the content creators centered around this property took a stand and stood by you sooner. We probably would've had games of much greater quality years ago. Rather than backpedaling on progress made over a decade ago.
I really appreciate Apollo mentioning the customisation of your units, this absolutely SHOULD be in the game. Or future game, as well as armour improvement visuals.
Such an untapped potential. I think of Temple of the gods that has the crazy gold mine… What if on contructions, units built from there have tons of gold armor and ornaments. It would be actually sick.. unfortunately, CA is more interested in having tiers of the same unit for their “unit variety”.
And if they wanna save on cash they could always just make it open to modders, and even if they make new official skins there will be enough people interested in it to buy it still.
Its been already in shogun 2 multiplayer, you could customize ur multiplayer general, make custom color patterns to your veteran units, rename them and upgrade them etc and its never been done again for some reason
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Pilps community post about that warhammer 3 dlc controversy. He basically came out of nowhere and hit the nail on the head. The controversy was so bad it made an already not a newer game fan not want to buy any future games indefinitely. I’m pretty sure he’s never been in the CA sphere/creator programme too and cut ties before it even began which will always be such a based admiral move. I love the guy, he just says how it is and doesn’t care about the consequences.
I think a problem for CA is that if the quality keeps declining and they damage their reputation enough, they’ll get to a point where the replacement fans know that it will be trash.
Apollo was a bit too harsh on the Warhammer fans near 53:20 -ish. People who paint Warhammer cant by any measure be called tasteless normies, Im saying it as one who isnt even into that even if I could afford it. Though there is an element of 'ey look at this cool thing', and Turin, a Warhammer pvp youtuber for example also keeps coming back to this game for the graphics and units, he also admits all the faults of the AI and the general jank. We're all nerds here, as far as Im concerned. Ridiculing one group for liking something you have no interest in is what causes such a dismissal of the historical fans by the newer fans in the first place. Be harsh to CA, the moneybags, the HR bullcrappers, but when youre being harsh to the people playing the games, thats where you'll not just create, but enlargen the divide. Pretty sure most people would appriciate more tactics in their Warhammer Total War, too. People been begging for the removal of buttladders for ages, for example. And hated the tower defense aspect of new sieges, and CA kept dialing back that aspect to a more tolerable level. Tldr. Warhammer fans arent normies consuming slop, quite the opposite in most cases, Id argue.
People's low standards, lack of self respect and unwillingness to listen to valid criticisms are what empowers CA to get away with all of this stuff. Those attitudes are what causes them to be criticized, not the fact they're painting figures. The comparison to how GW treats them and how they're used to it is very valid.
@@vikingcathq You lost me at 'unwillingness to listen to valid criticisms". Warhammer is exactly one of those fandoms where players are keenly aware of the faults of both the setting and the company. Ever heard 'Youre not a real Warhammer fan if you dont hate Games Workshop'? The other two have truth to them. Lack of self respect is how most nerdy people are to begin with. And its systematic across gaming/entertainment, thats why things are so bad as they are across the board. As for low standards, sure, people are willing to look the other way a lot if it means they get somehing they can like and play with. Though Im fairly sure most hardcore Warhammer fans you might speak about never played TW Warhammer to begin with. Most of those people are solely in it for the 40k side of things, and never took more than a cursory glance at fantasy. The hardcore warhammer fans who play TW Warhammer must be miniscule, as they were never a numerous group in the first place. Regardless, if you want to lump in warhammer fans with groups of people like those who play Fifa and Cod yearly, or Fortnite, or still buy tickets for Disney flops in movies, youre very far from the truth. If you acknowledge there is a sharp distinction there, yet stick to your guns, so be it. Youre still not making those people want to engage in conversation with you.
@@GrivehnWarhammer fans absolutly consume the slop. Why are the models so overpriced? Why does GW keep spamming Space Marine content and leaving basically every other faction in the dirt by comparison? Because they know people will buy it. For all the critiques about games workshop they still give them their money so why would they change?
@@vikingcathq Yes, opening your argument by accusing your opponents of having low standards and no self respect has no effect on their willingness to listen to your "valid criticisms". Totally sane take.
@@magicmanbran54 Do they buy it though? Consensus seems to be that everyone is moving to 3d printing, and GW's successes come lately from the visual media, whilst their figure sales keep shrinking. I dont have 'source', so idk if that is the case. But I hear what you say about Space marine overload everywhere and agree with letting the other factions and races breathe, too. As many warhammer fans also say, GW is successful despite their actions, not because of them.
Mount and Blade Warband and Bannerlord kind of have that simulations aspect for medieval melee combat, but you’re kind of limited because you command from the ground and can’t control more than your own few hundred troops, but it’s also kind of got the Warhammer problem of stats ruling and just out-damaging the opponent.
Stats certainly matter on M&B, but good tactics (especially tactics used in real life, not just cheesy AI manipulation) works really well in both games. More so in bannerlord because of the upgrades to formations and ai. But I do agree that the perspective of being a character limits your ability for perfect control of your army. Such is the difference in being an action strategy game as opposed to an rts. There is a mod that allows rts camera if you really want the feeling of a commander at least.
@@xenmaster2203 cavalry kinda defeats most armies in the field. Had an entire army of Khuzaits late tier khans guard and heavy lancers and horse guard. Even the Vlandians and Aserai got destroyed on the battlefield by my army.
I think one problem in this conversation is that Legend doesn't list any positive points of Warhammer. Warhammer delivers on power fantasy (pun intended), which means playing mighty lord and heroes in epic wide scale battles, filled with back breaking spells that can turn the tides of battle in a few instants, and wilding the power of legendary creatures at your fingertips. Which obviously is not the same thing that an historical total war delivers, nor wants to deliver. Saying that one is better than the other cause they are trying to achieve different things is like saying that an apple is bad cause it doesn't taste like an orange: they are both round fruits, and that's pretty much where the similarities end, and by design. They are not trying, nor should they, try to be good at the same things, because they don't aim to deliver the same experiences.
there is no positive to warhammer, i finally got it last year when the whole combo pack was like 14 dollars, i played the game for 5 minutes and refunded it even on a 80 percent mark down.. its trash made for kids on ridalin.
V has a video about this, believe it or not, & the problems with Warhammer have nothing to do with the "power fantasy" but the fact that the power fantasy hasn't actually been delivered.
I'm smiling here remembering when I was as young as Legend... Oh, a decade ago. Oh, my first TW was Shogun. Last: Rome 2. Never paying them again, unless something really miraculous happens. I'll just watch Legend every now and then and curse the company.
Was given Attila a few days ago, and having gotten into TW from warhammer then loving shogun 2 later, it's amazing how many good features would be perfect in warhammer and seeing just how much was lost, and then if I try to go back to earlier games like Medieval I just bounce right off it with the lack of QOL, and the atrocious UI Seems we're always going 1 step forward 3 steps back
Not playing medieval 2 means Missing Out alot. The best mods in the series Like stainless steel, call of warhammer, broken crescent or lotr third age. Same goes for great Features which never Made a Comeback Like the recruitment system. And the best Thing, not 100 dlcs to Milk the sheeps.
Love to see it guys To add to Legends statement about everything going to the wayside with the warscape engine. Some try to muddy the waters by saying "the warscape engine is purely graphics." And think that this is sufficient enough to debunk the critique. From my understanding the total war engine was updated from TW1 to TW2 during the jump to full 3d in Rome 1 Total war. Then they updated to TW3 for empire. And it was indeed a disaster and we have seen majority bad games every since then with only shogun 2 and it's expansions being stand out exceptions. The problem is TW3 engine currently has an absolute mess of legacy issues and code that they have not gone back and fixed. Juggernought, currently developing the Warhammer Rebirth mod from warhammer 2, has been meticulously going through the files for YEARS to try and fix everything and surprisingly you can indeed simulate as close as possible shogun 2 gameplay, and Rome 1/Med 2 in some aspects. All in warhammer 2 with fantastical creatures, tactical depth still is able to make a comeback in that. Although there are still a few issues for sure when it comes to the designs of the engine. With total war, still leaning on a fundemental level, having healthbar action orientated priority rather than tactical depth. But to really exasperate the engine critique legend brought up TW1 Engine - 2000-2002 (Shogun 1 - Medieval 1) TW2 engine 2004-2006 (Rome Total war-Medieval 2) TW3 engine? 2009 - 2023 (Empire - Total war Pharaoh) Yup, CA has been running the current itteration of the TW3 engine for 14 years and counting. With "updates" appearing to be the team having to tack on plugins/updates to accomodate what the newest title needs to offer, creating a lot of spaghetti and bloat. Taking out one of these dozens and dozens of things could cause the whole house of cards to crumble and break the engine. I'm no expert or game dev, nor do we have access to the level of source code that CA does, but the fact so many legacy bugs still exist since empire and a attentive modder can find that a lot of gameplay mechanics (line of sight for gunpowder units) are just an unticked checkbox burried in some table in the files somewhere? It suggests to me I'm right
I love and hate Volound. He often speaks the reality of the situation regarding Total War, and it's nice to hear that consistently. His showing this discussion was pathetic, though. Seemingly here just to say "it's crap" repeatedly, laugh at every other thing Legend says, and overall, he REALLY just wanted Legend to say that Warhammer is crap. At one point, he goes on some short bs ramble about "a TH-camrs duty." Bugger off. People can do whatever they please with their channels. Showed very little respect for Legends' opinions. Seemingly just waiting for Legend to stop so that he can once again chime in and say, "hate everything about it". Totally lacking in empathy or respect for anyone who doesn't explicitly agree with his opinion. Again, I enjoy Volound. His opinions are usually pretty spot on, but he doesn't belong in any kind of debate, and his ego appears to be quite unchecked. Shocker. An online persona with a decent following possessing an unchecked ego. Apollo did pretty well. Kinda weird that he couldn't understand that Legend simply likes Warhammer, albeit for different reasons than any of them enjoy the historical Total War games for. Legend does well enough, too. He's respectful to all viewpoints and argues in favor of everyone at certain points, seemingly lining up with his very love-hate relationship with Warhammer. He struggles to get his point across often, though. I think that's part of the reason Volound and Apollo kept basically asking him to repeat his previous points in favor of Warhammer so many times. I'm speaking in regards to the whole almost-4 hours video. Posting here in the hopes that Volound sees and understands my criticisms of the role he chose to play.
"People can do whatever they please with their channels" is just a platitude that is seen through the moment you do anything more than simply gloss over it. it has to pretend that we live in complete isolation free of judgement and consequences. its a total cop-out and is the only time you try to contest anything i said. asmongold got cancelled by the whole internet for endorsing genocide. darksydephil gets ridiculed constantly for being shit at games. your comment fundamentally contradicts itself because i am literally doing what you say i can and you are doing exactly what i did - making judgements on it. terrible comment.
@Volound No, sir. You chose to miss to the point of my comment. My point regarding your self-righteous rant was that YOU do not get state - as though it is a fact, and anyone who would do otherwise is wrong - that every TH-camr has to have some noble end-goal with their channels. Not only that, but you proceed to dismiss the rest of my comment due to one hole you poked. No mention of your childish insults and lack of respect or empathy for others. My point stands. Your performance was not that of one who belongs in a debate-like setting. Terrible response.
read aristotle. i did it when i was 12 so im sure you can manage it. if your argument is that youtubers are ignoble and thats why shilling is fine and playing bad games is acceptable then fine. sounds like you are just digging yourself into a bigger hole. im glad i poked a hole. it was the only thing i could find worth addressing by virtue of it actually doing anything but tone-trolling and whining. shit comments.
@Volound I feel as though you do not understand what part of the discussion I am referring to. Here, let's try a third time: You stated that all people should have some sort of noble end-goal with their channels when this is simply not the case. Your word isn't fact, but it is a fact that your word is indeed not. Re-watch the discussion if you don't understand what I'm referencing. No, I am not arguing that shilling is okay. Playing shit games is completely subjective. There are huge circles of people who believe that Skyrim and Oblivion are shit games, but they are spoken of as though they're amazing in the discussion. Pointless to go any beyond that. Insulting me does not further any points you are trying to make. Again, there is no place for that in any real debate. Oh, I'm sorry I didn't quote every time you snorted at the idea of people liking things you dont. Or laughed in Legends' face every time he attempted to say he likes Warhammer for whatever his reasons are. You were there to get Legend to say Warhammer is shit. That's basically all you contributed.
@@SpeakerTerenus just read aristotle. you havent done it. you didnt even google to see why you should. i said the word in the video. "eudaimonia". google it. what you are saying is either efforted nonsense or simply offhand whining.
No chance Total War ever be good again, there is unmitigatable lack of design ability in CA. It's full of modern design mixed with design by committee, CA needs new leadership (and I'm not talking about marketing or management) with some passion and vision. The bad thing is I have never seen a company that have done that with the franchise that made them. In the new Valve documentary for example you can see them recognize that they had hit a wall with Half Life and the passion was gone so they focused on other genres.
The point on the morale system creating that extra dimension for tactics is spot on and one of my biggest complaints with the new games. Id be crazy not to mention your own play through as the Takeda and how you used Shingen with his baller mustache and his Fear attribute to cause large armies to rout with a well timed charge. How adding the element of having the terrain advantage mattered as well. All that really stuck with me as I've always been a history fan and could apply real life tactics like a well timed and executed cavalry charge to win a decisive battle. I always thought that was so cool to have games like that where tactics actually mattered. Now it feels so dumbed down.
gyazo.com/2079c80062128d639e698eae409e847e absolutely. i still get comments on this aspect to this day. and they vindicate everything i was arguing through this whole discussion.
The thing is, Legend, Naval Battles were sorely needed in Warhammer and they never added them They created this lame stopgap of "land battles but at sea". The setting was appropriate, there's even an entire tabletop subgame about warhammer fantasy naval battles. It's so bad that they didn't at least try to make it work there that it makes me think they fundamentally can't make them work. I doubt there's anyone at CA who still actually understands what is going on in their engine any more and I think they're just beyond broken.
@@mtth4222 "In this game with no navies or naval mechanics there aren't that many naval battles" hmm I wonder why. This isn't even true, even on the map where the oceans are scaled down massively and there's nothing incentivizing naval battles unless you want it to be. But this is a really silly comment man.
@@Person01234 You do realize that some factions, chaos dwarfs, green skins, etc are landlocked and don't even set foot in water for the entire campaign. Even when you do, there is no incentive to fight in water cause your goal is to target settlments which are located on land. One of the few factions that does rely on sailing are Dark elfs with their Black arks. But even then, ship battles won't work since black arks are so massive and it would make more sense to have the enemy climb on them, which they made a map for.
@@mtth4222 literally nothing you just said is a point. Yes there are some landlocked factions, and? You know there are landlocked factions in empire? There is no incentive to fight on the water, as I said. If there were, as their were in empire, you have a reason to. The high and dark elves would both be significant naval powers, as obviously would the vampire coast, it would be important for anyone wanting to operate over the ocean, depending on what mechanics you have there could be reasons for other factions to. As I say there's a whole tabletop sub-game for warhammer fantasy naval battles. How many major naval powers were there in the 18th century? And yet...
the best thing about total war is shitting on it. i dont think iv watched a legit lets play, tips and tricks etc video about a total war game in at least 10 years.
Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time. I used to watch his Rome multiplayer videos way back in the day. What the hell happened to PoM anyway? Man just disappeared from youtube
Imagine if Paradox bought CA and used them as a department that ONLY made the battle aspects of a game and paradox made the campaign. Would be the ultimate strategy…
I recently had an epiphany which I think sums up our shared feelings : in the grand scheme of things there is not that many differences between the total war titles, meaning it has been 20 years that we play the same game with a slightly different coat of paint on it. That's why we don't enjoy it anymore. Because no one plays the same game for 20 years and still enjoy it the same way if at all. Ever since I saw this, I started seeing more of these games that I've played too much. Counter strike 2 ? 20 years playing CS. Aoe 1/2/3/aom 20 years of playing the same different version of the same game. I was someone who played game on a daily basis. Today I barely play because of it. Thank you for having this conversation. For me unfortunately gaming has fallen.
52:50 How many Warhammer fans do you know? I think those people look so deep in to the mechanics that they lose interest in the game because its too casual.
Legend said, “Some people just want to auto-resolve every battle, so they can play on Easy.” The hilarious part is that as of right now, at the tail end of 2024, every single battle is auto-resolvable without unit losses on Very Hard, including siege battles. And the few times you get an unwinnable auto-resolve, you actually can’t beat the enemy army manually either purely because the units are so impossibly overpowered via power creep from the latest DLC.
This is a common issue in warhammer and a major design flaw. However, it is partly a skill issue. Auto-resolve success depends heavily on what type of armies you build. Building armies that are good in auto resolve is a bad strategy. If the auto-resolve overvalues your army it is impossible to outperform it. Expecialy since the type of units that are over valued (like melee infantry) have no tactical depth to them. Best to bring armies that are bad in auto-resolve and good in manual battles, then the AI will underestimate you and you win easily. On the contrary, if the AI overestimates you they send in way more than they need to to win.
What really grinds me most about the whole franchise is the tiring re-cycling of the exact same game with different coat of paint decade after decade. Why not to focus on some stupid facial animations and bling when the base game could be expanded massively with the stuff they already have. It's this lazy, low bar marketing and business decisions that kills it. Some who gives a shit list of stuff that would make me interested again after medieval 2 in the franchise: - high focus on logistics - no micro management of individual units on the battle maps, but pre drilled army manouvers - higher autonomy for units - economy upgrade - massive overhaul of the AI - complete siege battle overhaul - ditch the turn based stuff - give you the actual role of a faction leader or a general instead of some omnipotent god like figure A good argument would be probably that it would not be a TW game anymore and likely so. Franchises come and go, but there should be actual innovation and risk taking. Why not to collaborate over long period with big vocal fans of the game series and make something together with them. The Unity of Command 2 is a good positive example of this kind of collab.
Great Video! This stuff needed said. I've been playing Total War most of life and have seen the decline. You guys are right we have to speak with our wallets!
I would listen to a monthly podcast of this, especially during the release window of whatever the next total war is! Nice to see the community come together 👍
I've picked up Age of Wonder 4 recently, and it was very refreshing to play a 4X game with ACTUAL good design all around, with very competent (and fair) AI, with DLC that actually synergize and elevate the rest of the game rather than just add a couple of stuff for a small corner of the game. After having played TW for so long it was almost shocking to see how much better a 4X can be when the campaign map experience is well thought out. The game is way, WAY more "arcady" than historical TW games, but when you compare it directly with the warhammer games, its not even a contest. CA has long forgotten how to make good games.
A wonderful day! I'm sending a big thank you to all three of you creators for this discussion. I think it brings people together and gets the message across of how fans FEEL. Most people who love total war don't want to see CA fail. I will gladly spend my money on other things until we get some effort put into what the fans want. (What I've been doing) To whatever end.
Older TW games made it a principal point that battles had to be orderly e.g. you had a battle line in order for your units to maximally effective. If the lines broke and devolved into blobs that meant your units will take more casualties. Newer TW games are all about the blobs. Combat becomes a blob as soon as units start fighting.
I saw both their video's in my recommended, but i haven't seen them, super interested in what the 3 of you have to say! can't watch it right now tho haha, saved to watch later
with the way paradox makse their games and how they manage their DLC it would be even worse than CA. Plus they actually haven't made a good game since HOI4 and even that was bare bones at the begining. CK3, Imperator and Victoria 3 really suck ass and no amount of DLC can fix it.
@@TheKMSDLfair enough but at least paradox DLCs tend to actually add stuff to the game, not just reskinned units like total war. Also majority of people agree CK3 is a good game so not sure why that’s included
Glad to see Legend grow up. Even if I watched him for his Medieval 2 content back in the day, he came across as arrogant and insufferable in general for no reason. Now he seems very grounded and it's a pleasure listening his thought process.
Guys, this was awesome. My three favorite TW content creators. I especially appreciate the points being made about morale and defeating an army without annihilation. I even wish TW would encourage more of that in the older games. There was a moment playing MK1212 where I won a few large engagements and captured around two cities. To my shock, the faction requested peace and offered to be my vassal. This is exactly what I always wanted more of. Meaningful battles with large consequences. I didn't need to grind my way stack after stack and conquer all of their cities to win that war.
1:11:36 just think about how insulting that is , they get almost a decade worth of investment from the Warhammer fanbase then use the money to produce Garbage like hyenas, then they also increase price of shadows of change because of that mess with no added value to Warhammer fans. This is just morally wrong
32:15 multiplayer side of this is way worst , you can still get the enemy routed if you charge with 10 cav units at the same time in single player , in multiplayer that's never going to happen, is very common to have non unbreakable units fight to the last man and this becomes even worst when you can't run down units properly even when you manage to route them.
My favorite parts were when the three of you were cracking up and making jokes, the comradery gave me a weird sense of nostalgia I think. It's hard to explain really. Hearing names and putting faces to those names was incredibly interesting. Realizing I've seen these people and being able to put a coherent timeline together, for once. Going to make a point to learn everything I can about as many of these execs as possible. The list just keeps growing. Don't get me wrong, I think Legend is a good guy separate from his youtube persona and work space. I want to like Legend as a voice for the community, I'm really trying but he's really good at advocating against himself, it's actually impressive. I learned so much and I'm anxious to apply it to the stuff I already knew. I don't wanna get too into it because I'll just type out my script. I pray you do more of these in the future. On to the next part. Thank you.
yeah absolutely, it was seriously a long time coming. my first time being in voice with either of these guys and it was long overdue. we probably couldve stretched this convo out to 20 hours. totally agree about the comradery, and also what you said in your vid about this event being a pretty big deal. it feels like it. btw if you ever have any questions about anything in terms of your videos and their ideas and script just message me. i check my youtube comments regularly but on top of that im on discord and twitter at least once a day. ive talked to a lot of devs at this point (on top of just being around TW for 24y and TW youtube for 12+y). i have been piecing things together and publicising it heavily over the past year especially, but havent necessarily found good opportunities to get absolutely everything across in youtube videos. but at the same time im always happy to try to chip in when anyone comes to me with a video idea. hope you enjoy part 2 and 3. things get spicey and i have a feeling you will get a lot from the rest of this convo.
@@Volound I'm blown away, I cannot adequately express my gratitude. Thank you for making yourself available as an avenue for information, your input would be invaluable and elevate my content to a degree of accuracy and usefulness that I could only hope to achieve on my own. Looking forward to watching the rest and seeing what you post in the future. You will be hearing from me, thank you again.
Was interesting to listen to. While I think there were some things left out about Warhammer that also give it more strategic elements (that can be quite fun to learn and to use efficently), the big thing about morale thing is definitely a downer combined with the AI cheats (which eliminates a large chunk of strategic possibilities). Same with Rome 2, especially with that one's broken autoresolve. Looking forward to the other 2 parts as well.
I just wanted to say, I've been playing total war since I was 13 (when I got my first pc) and I'm 30 now. Rome 2 and antiquity is my absolute favorite time period, and the bronze age even more so. I also use to paint Warhammer miniatures as a child. I've never had an issue separating my love of different pass times or even genres (not to talk about historical or fantasy). I like many others was excited for Warhammer fantasy, like Apollo I'm a very roleplay minded person. I expected this grand strategy with tons of customizations and leveling up lords and gaining gear and building your nation but instead it just became arcade slope. Genre shifts are never excuses for making bad games and I don't even newer fans want to play bad games, they just don't know better.
You talk too much about Warhammer to not invite in the discussion next time Indypride, Great Book of Grudges and others. You may be surprised on how far you would agree about the situation.
I always have to start these comments with, Medieval 2 is my fave total war, and was my first one. I also agree that current CA and Warhammer series has its issues. CA has gotten lazy in their design, and there are many things about these games that should be brought up to snuff. But I think calling Warhammers bad games, at least in their current states is pretty silly, and saying i'm a fake fan, or not a real fan, is also silly because I don't even disagree with the criticisms. I really would like to see a historical total war, one that competes with the old classics, but I will die on the hill that the design of warhammer three fits for a warhammer setting, and designing it to fit in the historical sense wouldn't work, and I think as we have seen, designing a historical title like the warhammer titles also will not translate well. Oh yea, the sieges suck wish they could be better, though I don't think all the maps are rancid. I miss the historical titles too, I really do. But I also seriously enjoy the Warhammer Series, and I think 3 is in a really good place, I didn't buy shadows of change until they fixed it and was put on sale, and the last DLC was really good. Theres a lot of hate from nostalgia, and sometimes I'm there too. But I really think the historical community should chill sometimes, I don't think this is a Morrowind to Skyrim situation, I think this is a Halo3 to Halo4 thing. Warhammer aint no Halo 5.
Yeah, these guys seem to miss the point of a game, ultimately, is entertainment. And whilst I think it's a shame that we haven't gotten a really good historical TW since Thrones there's still a lot of fun to be had in the WH series. And just because WH has more than three unit types that doesn't mean it's bad.
You can enjoy it as long as you want who could care less. But as long as this game profits CA and will be popular they are not going to make something new and better, we will have these plastic figures hitting the air without any tactical entertainment too and all we'll got are multiple variations of 3 kingdoms, thrones of Britannia, Troy (pretty atmospheric, but still bad), Pharaoh. Btw, notice that I mentioned EVERY single TW game since TWW, things are really bad indeed lmao
i really liked this. You really can see how much this franchise means to all of you and how much it hurts you seein it pulled through the dirt. Same here...
Rome 2 was my first total war and i play it to this day. But your point about morale was absolutely right, but whats really troubling is that the morale systems of rome 2 and shogun 2 work against each other. I have seen mods for rome 2 and tried to mod the morale system myself but what happens is that, if you try to go in the direction of shogun 2, rome 2 breaks completely and units rout not only extremely quickly but also randomly and that makes all cheap units completely useless because not only do they make no damage but they also won't absorb any.
"the newer it is the less of an excuse they have" Gotta disagree there, to me its even less of an excuse if they could do it 20 years ago as opposed to 10 with a much bigger company
i already made that point. i was making another one to close the walls in and remove excuses. that was the point of saying that. i was removing excuses on purpose.
yeah thats what i meant when i said "less of an excuse", was just describing that aspect. of course, they should be able to do what they did 20+y ago. 100%.
@@spiffygonzales5160 lol yep "lost technology" is not even a joke. i used the phrase on a CA dev as a meme joke and they AGREED, thinking i was being serious. the jokes are not even jokes.
It’s nice to see these guys discuss TW’s state. CA needs to take their community seriously, everything has been laid out for them to succeed for many years. It’s the same things that get bypassed and neglected. At the end of the day SEGA and CW want to run it like a business and do the minimums instead of truly making something great. Businesses don’t make good games, passionate people do.
Call of Warhammer Beginning of the End Times is my shit !!! I've been on a Wissenland campaign for over a year now. My empire is touching all sides of the campaign map and one turn takes like three hours to finish because I micro manage and double check everything and do not autoresolve any battles. And I love it.
I don't like the position "we are just criticizing the game it isn't a personal attack" when a minute before you were refering to people who buy and like warhammer total war as the lowest common denominator, and there has been a lot of references to them being consumers who weren't around for the good old stuff (which many of us were)
Volund, Pixel and Legend. Pretty much the authority fan-voice triumvirate on all things Total War with usually different opinions. To see you come together and discuss this is a five fire alarm that should be studied by CA, if they still care. It doesn't get more official than that.
Can we also mention just how dreadfully optimized these new warscape engine total war games are? Even several patches in, and on modern hardware, games like Rome 2 and Attila just do not run well. From consistent microstuttering, to framerate issues, to bad performance on the campaign map. Ironically Rome remastered, despite being a mid port, runs infinitely better than all of the current engine TW games. They really need to ditch this code and start anew, which they obviously won’t do.
ahahaha they kinda have to. been their policy for years to have staff there that basically watch all the "important" things that happen on youtube. basically an unwritten part of the job description.
I remember Medieval 2, Rome 1. I just liked to watch battles themselves. Small scale, big scale. It all was cool. Closest thing later is Shogun 2 and Fall of Samurai. But still it was full of holes.
part 2 from apollo:
th-cam.com/video/BYUT4TZh4eY/w-d-xo.html
part 3 from legend:
th-cam.com/video/NqLcYm2i84A/w-d-xo.html
All I ever played was Medieval and Empire (because my PC is too bad), but with mods such as DaC, EB2, SSHIP and PUA, so that's future Total War titles are just so confusing.
- Adûnâi
Me smiling ear to ear with having these three in the same discord call.
What a moment in history. Let’s hope it starts a spark and catches a fuse to ignite something towards the total war developers.
Time to make a coffee and enjoy three of the greats to talk to us all.
ohh man pilps! i hope we do more of these and that we can get you in on some of them. you would fit right in immediately and have a lot to contribute.
@@VoloundI would love too! Sometimes I’m far too opinionated for my own good, looking forward to hopefully more and to join too!
@@PilpsI would love to talk with you
@@PixelatedApollo1hell yeah brother, I need to pick a bone with you not saving that little dark age total war edit before it got copyright striked down out of existence! 🫠
@Volound I would love to see you, Legend, and PA bring on a rotating 4th chair (like pilps) to talk about RTT and RTS in general. Could be a great series of talks. That 4th chair need not be just a TW guy either. I can see a eugen player like VulcanHD or a paradox guy like Tommy K or bittersteel bringing in a ton of jumping off points in terms of talking about where this genre deserves to go.
HIGHLY unpopular opinion: Napoleon is when total war began its downfall. Rather than fixing all the issues Empire had they simply stripped out all the features with issues (such as firing types).
Its not "Empire without the bugs" its Empire without the features that needed to be fixed.
Edit: Also I'm not saying Napoleon is bad. Im simply saying that it seems to he when CA started its "Produce less, dont fix, rehash, sell" model
Napoleon though I enjoyed It was the first Total War game where I actually had doubts and major dislikes about the game, mainly how small the campaign map was and units auto replenishing, when we'd just come from Empire though janky and new, It had a fairly ambition campaign map that I loved. Shogun 2 after made me forget about It but, Napoleon Is deffo up there with one my least favourite TW games.
100% I also view napoleon as the beginning of the end. Empire was a HUGE misstep, but it retained the spirit of TW, it had ambition, it kept the pseudo-historical feeling of combat (putting aside the AI behaviour). I loved empire despite it's flaws, and I really hated napoleon. Instead of fixing their broken game it feels like they gave up on the engine, created a new, scaled down game and sold it to us with a whole bunch of features missing and all of the ambition gone.
I will say that I think the reason I'm typically not happy with volound's "fantasy (or it's fans) is ruining TW" rhetoric is that TW's downfall started way before then, and everyone bought it. People continued to consoom (myself included). I also think a lot of his criticisms of Warhammer (II) can easily be applied to shogun 2. Both games that were polished up to a good state for their respective playerbases, but both running on the same fundamentally broken engine and whilst Shogun II was an undeniably good game, a lot of the things that I don't like about it are similar to the things I don't like about the warhammer series. Warhammer is just a continuance of existing trends imo.
Napoleon was clearly supposed to be an expansion to Empire just like the Americas Campaign was but they split it off to a stand alone due to the negative feedback to Empire Total War.
@FeHearts
Agreed.
@@TheRingoism Yes! The auto-replenishing was the first major step in the wrong direction.
I think the biggest problem, which you guys have really highlighted, is that the games have become HP and stats dominated rather than morale and tactics dominated.
Units often run out of HP before they run out of morale, and will often run out of morale when they are almost completely dead.
Yep. When you are designing a game you have basicaly 2 approaches. Are you going to design it more as an arcade game - with many gamefied elements, like HP, stat numbers levels etc. Or are you going to do more of a simulation. Now ofc - these are games and are always somewhere in the middle, but they can tip one way or the other. Old TW games - pre-Warhammer - or should I say pre-Shogun 2, were about in the middle of the road. But with Shogun 2 it started to lean more heavily towards the arcade feeling. And once Warhammer got here - it's an arcade game.
Let me be clear - there's no TW game where battles would meet historical criteria to me that would be decent. But old games were constrained by technology. And for their time they achieved amazing resutls. And when technology improved, I was hoping the way to simulate battles would just get better. But no.
lol and this is the actual reason theres a schism between warhammer fans and history fans. It's literally more than just about the fantasy vs history setting or "rose tinted glasses", its the fact warhammer plays way too differently for most history fans to enjoy. In Medieval 2, a cavalry charge at the right time can either make or break an entire battle. In Shogun 2, you have to constantly maneuver your units due to how fast units rout and die off. In Napoleon Total War (at least mainly in MP since E:TW and N:TW AI sucks balls), both armies will actively try to fight for good positions like hills, buildings and even fences so people just don't stand around as that means they'll be at a disadvantage. In Fall of the Samurai, good formation for infantry units can allow even a small army to beat doom stacks. Meanwhile in Warhammer which took the whole stats bullshit from Rome 2 (which is still terrible to this day without mods)...
More precisely it's now weight dominated. Anything with enough weight can run through anything.
Even phoenix guard or chosen halberd can't stop any mid-tier chariot or monster if they're charging.
That is exactly when I felt the franchise I loved is no more. Spot on!
lol you can beat Rome 1 with just hastati since their stats are so overloaded xD
I had to wake up early for this one; forgive my morning voice LOL
opposite for me i stayed up (early riser with busted sleep schedule lol). i think i start mixing up my words with saying medieval 3 when i mean warhammer 3 later and that does my head in listening back.
thanks to you and legend for the great convo. hope we can get to do more.
Unacceptable, should have prepared two weeks prior to wake up even earlier and do vocal chord exercises.
@@caiooca5793 yeah, absolutely, terrible disrespect
Let me smell your morning breath
Empire Total War is when the shitty DLC policy started with unit pacts.
Also preorder DLC. Empire, Shogun, Rome, Total Warhammer 1, each title had more egregious preorder DLC.
It's true, today the financial barrier to entry into TW Warhammer is becoming absurd.
@@termitreter6545 Selling blood for a Warhammer game not only feels like a cheap scam, it pretty much IS one. A scam that CA has been pulling for 3 games now.
I want to try the complete experience for Total War Warhammer, but only have the first one and no dlcs.
Im looking at over $300 for just the dlcs.
@@Wroobi84 It's so bad I'd almost recommend people to just play the table top game instead. You'll have something to show off at the end at least.
53:01 Ironically the Warhammer Fantasy tabletop has a better morale system than Total War: Warhammer.
real figurines do better math then virtual ones designed to have good math
It also has many other systems/rules that work better than in TW Warhammer. Things like: armour, armour piercing, fight in extra ranks. The magic and spells are more interesting and varied in tabletop.
I always thought its funny when people (eg on the reddit) argue that having no moral is more true to "total war", because its dark and bloody and stuff.
Yet in reality Tabletop actually has more depths than that.
@@termitreter6545 Well, SOME factions had to worry about morale more than others. A consistent problem GW seems to have with the mechanic regardless of whether its fantasy or 40k. Some armies just never have to worry about morale and others are constantly juggling morale being a big problem, to minor problem, to no problem at all.
The Big 3....
Feels like the Yalta conference (guess who’s Stalin in those 3)
The Triumvirate! 🏛🏺🌿
Hell yeah
@@AttaBek1422Volound?
The big 2 and a hack negativity merchant whose channel barely grew in the last 10 years
CA selling blood DLCs for every one of their games is like buying fries from somewhere and having them not add salt to the fries and then charging you for a salt package. What?? No one would tolerate that business practice, but gamers do for some reason.
Eh, not true. Airlines have all kind of business practices exactly like this but everyone accepts it. This isn’t a gamer only thing
It makes me laugh, because I have a good number of DLC from TW Warhammer 1 and 2, and all the DLC from Shogun 2, but I'll never buy the blood DLC because there is less than no value in it for me. Not only is it cosmetic only, but my understanding is that all those decals have a noticeable frame rate impact to boot.
It's more of a selling fries and ketchup separately because some people might be allergic to tomatoes.
There's no real competition for people who want a total war game. The quasi-monopoly is why people keep up with it... and why we still care about the studio.
they are selling blood dlc separately because otherwise they would have to up the games maturity ranking to fit german legal demands
And higher maturity ranking would mean a bunch of ways to market the game would be closed to them
Still feels scummy, but not "entirely" their fault
Apollo said something very important here: the key is to vote with your wallet. If that means CA going bust, so be it. In economics this is called creative (pun intended) destruction: the old have to keep up or give room for the new. CA does not owe us players anything else than the product we buy. If we buy it, it on us, not them.
Really wish we could convince more people about this, specifically the ones that are willing to excuse everything a heartless corporation would do for misguided reasons. Maybe it'll end the era of shitty cash grab games, but maybe not since they'll still have so much new, naive players to bamboozle.
There won't be another CA anytime soon. There isn't a big enough market for niche games like the historical total wars, and modern engines aren't designed for it. Feel free to vote with your wallet, but if CA falls the genre is effectively dead.
@ Doubt it. There are much more nichier games with better and more specializes engines than Total War. Look at Eugen Systems games for example, which have a tiny player base compared to TW. And even if you are right, if CA can't produce games worth playing even with current demand, why would putting your hard earned money into them chamge the situation? Essentially what you are saying is that there is not enough demand for competition and thus no insentive for CA to even try. If anything, this is an even greater reason to vote eith your wallet.
I would love for Slitherine to pick up total war@@juhopitkaranta6883
Oh boy that's gonna be spicy
The fact that the amount of people who care about total war in this video is higher than in Creative Assembly itself.
What makes the battles special is the campaign providing context and meaning to them. You liked your best general because of all the battles he'd helped you win with his bonuses especially in the morale department, and it was sad when he died and you had to work with less capable alternatives.
The lack of consequences now has made the battles too frequent and meaningless.
If you win a big battle, you should be able to seize a fairly large amount of territory including probably several cities, or get some sort of peace treaty. Instead you have to fight as many as 3-10 manual battles to defeat even minor opponents.
This also extends to the large free garrisons that get stuffed in cities. Most cities should just surrender without an army to protect it, but instead you need to manually play out or autocalc a siege for every single settlement.
The battles are virtually always the same scale, repetitive, boring, played on the same few small maps, and only have consequences only for the player due to designed army and economic limits that only apply to the player.
☝🏻 this
Have a bump sir
Yes which was the formula 20 years ago when it was pushing the boundaries of tech. Now it is the exact same just with better graphics. How are they pushing the tech now? With all their millions in sales?
Holy shit. Never thought I would see the day that Legend of Total War would talk about the Voldemort of Total War let alone speak directly to you. Strange times we live in.
musta missed out the DMCA drama when CA filed a fraudulent DMCA to give me a strike and it failed completely and legend pointed out how scummy it was publically over and over again (which really pissed off CA)
@Volound Oh no, I remembered that. Good on him for doing so, but that was like. The exception that proved the rule at the time. A display of overreach by CA that anybody with a working brain could see is bad. Even if it happens to someone """"""""""""bad"""""""""""" in the community. Prior to that and up to this point outside of that. No one else that's intimate with this IP ever borrowed to mention your name, let alone acknowledge your criticisms. I imagine on fear of getting Reddit on their ass and black listed by CA. As far as I know, that is. If that makes things much clearer.
yeah id spent years critiquing the games and really didnt get much support or agreement for most of that, especially the start. apollo was pretty much the only person (for a good long while) that was willing to publically admit i was fundamentally right about everything. we go through some aspects of this later on and hash it out.
@@Volound Glad to hear. If more of the content creators centered around this property took a stand and stood by you sooner. We probably would've had games of much greater quality years ago. Rather than backpedaling on progress made over a decade ago.
@@THENemesisXX99This is what was hoped for with the whole unionizing thing but that evaporated quickly
The issue with modern games is that the creatives have been replaced by businessmen
"Business Assembly" wouldnt sell as well I presume 😁
Unfortunately this seems to apply to almost all media nowadays
I really appreciate Apollo mentioning the customisation of your units, this absolutely SHOULD be in the game. Or future game, as well as armour improvement visuals.
Such an untapped potential. I think of Temple of the gods that has the crazy gold mine… What if on contructions, units built from there have tons of gold armor and ornaments. It would be actually sick.. unfortunately, CA is more interested in having tiers of the same unit for their “unit variety”.
And if they wanna save on cash they could always just make it open to modders, and even if they make new official skins there will be enough people interested in it to buy it still.
Its been already in shogun 2 multiplayer, you could customize ur multiplayer general, make custom color patterns to your veteran units, rename them and upgrade them etc and its never been done again for some reason
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Pilps community post about that warhammer 3 dlc controversy.
He basically came out of nowhere and hit the nail on the head.
The controversy was so bad it made an already not a newer game fan not want to buy any future games indefinitely.
I’m pretty sure he’s never been in the CA sphere/creator programme too and cut ties before it even began which will always be such a based admiral move.
I love the guy, he just says how it is and doesn’t care about the consequences.
I think a problem for CA is that if the quality keeps declining and they damage their reputation enough, they’ll get to a point where the replacement fans know that it will be trash.
Apollo was a bit too harsh on the Warhammer fans near 53:20 -ish. People who paint Warhammer cant by any measure be called tasteless normies, Im saying it as one who isnt even into that even if I could afford it.
Though there is an element of 'ey look at this cool thing', and Turin, a Warhammer pvp youtuber for example also keeps coming back to this game for the graphics and units, he also admits all the faults of the AI and the general jank. We're all nerds here, as far as Im concerned. Ridiculing one group for liking something you have no interest in is what causes such a dismissal of the historical fans by the newer fans in the first place.
Be harsh to CA, the moneybags, the HR bullcrappers, but when youre being harsh to the people playing the games, thats where you'll not just create, but enlargen the divide. Pretty sure most people would appriciate more tactics in their Warhammer Total War, too. People been begging for the removal of buttladders for ages, for example. And hated the tower defense aspect of new sieges, and CA kept dialing back that aspect to a more tolerable level.
Tldr. Warhammer fans arent normies consuming slop, quite the opposite in most cases, Id argue.
People's low standards, lack of self respect and unwillingness to listen to valid criticisms are what empowers CA to get away with all of this stuff. Those attitudes are what causes them to be criticized, not the fact they're painting figures. The comparison to how GW treats them and how they're used to it is very valid.
@@vikingcathq You lost me at 'unwillingness to listen to valid criticisms". Warhammer is exactly one of those fandoms where players are keenly aware of the faults of both the setting and the company. Ever heard 'Youre not a real Warhammer fan if you dont hate Games Workshop'?
The other two have truth to them. Lack of self respect is how most nerdy people are to begin with. And its systematic across gaming/entertainment, thats why things are so bad as they are across the board. As for low standards, sure, people are willing to look the other way a lot if it means they get somehing they can like and play with.
Though Im fairly sure most hardcore Warhammer fans you might speak about never played TW Warhammer to begin with. Most of those people are solely in it for the 40k side of things, and never took more than a cursory glance at fantasy.
The hardcore warhammer fans who play TW Warhammer must be miniscule, as they were never a numerous group in the first place.
Regardless, if you want to lump in warhammer fans with groups of people like those who play Fifa and Cod yearly, or Fortnite, or still buy tickets for Disney flops in movies, youre very far from the truth.
If you acknowledge there is a sharp distinction there, yet stick to your guns, so be it. Youre still not making those people want to engage in conversation with you.
@@GrivehnWarhammer fans absolutly consume the slop. Why are the models so overpriced? Why does GW keep spamming Space Marine content and leaving basically every other faction in the dirt by comparison? Because they know people will buy it. For all the critiques about games workshop they still give them their money so why would they change?
@@vikingcathq Yes, opening your argument by accusing your opponents of having low standards and no self respect has no effect on their willingness to listen to your "valid criticisms". Totally sane take.
@@magicmanbran54 Do they buy it though? Consensus seems to be that everyone is moving to 3d printing, and GW's successes come lately from the visual media, whilst their figure sales keep shrinking.
I dont have 'source', so idk if that is the case. But I hear what you say about Space marine overload everywhere and agree with letting the other factions and races breathe, too. As many warhammer fans also say, GW is successful despite their actions, not because of them.
It's nice to have an adult in the room on this channel who isn't just existing off resentment and nostalgia
Nothing wrong with resentment when it is deserved.
@@redsimonyt Granted. But when all a man does is live in resentment, it seeps into his character.
Chaotic good, chaotic neutral, and chaotic evil all in a discord.
Which is which? I’m only familiar with Legend.
Mount and Blade Warband and Bannerlord kind of have that simulations aspect for medieval melee combat, but you’re kind of limited because you command from the ground and can’t control more than your own few hundred troops, but it’s also kind of got the Warhammer problem of stats ruling and just out-damaging the opponent.
Stats certainly matter on M&B, but good tactics (especially tactics used in real life, not just cheesy AI manipulation) works really well in both games. More so in bannerlord because of the upgrades to formations and ai.
But I do agree that the perspective of being a character limits your ability for perfect control of your army. Such is the difference in being an action strategy game as opposed to an rts. There is a mod that allows rts camera if you really want the feeling of a commander at least.
@@xenmaster2203 cavalry kinda defeats most armies in the field. Had an entire army of Khuzaits late tier khans guard and heavy lancers and horse guard. Even the Vlandians and Aserai got destroyed on the battlefield by my army.
I think one problem in this conversation is that Legend doesn't list any positive points of Warhammer.
Warhammer delivers on power fantasy (pun intended), which means playing mighty lord and heroes in epic wide scale battles, filled with back breaking spells that can turn the tides of battle in a few instants, and wilding the power of legendary creatures at your fingertips. Which obviously is not the same thing that an historical total war delivers, nor wants to deliver. Saying that one is better than the other cause they are trying to achieve different things is like saying that an apple is bad cause it doesn't taste like an orange: they are both round fruits, and that's pretty much where the similarities end, and by design. They are not trying, nor should they, try to be good at the same things, because they don't aim to deliver the same experiences.
there is no positive to warhammer, i finally got it last year when the whole combo pack was like 14 dollars, i played the game for 5 minutes and refunded it even on a 80 percent mark down.. its trash made for kids on ridalin.
V has a video about this, believe it or not, & the problems with Warhammer have nothing to do with the "power fantasy" but the fact that the power fantasy hasn't actually been delivered.
@@lettuceprime4922 EXACTLY! It's the perfect setting for one too!
I stopped watching him when I realized 90% of time he just uses exploits and cheesy tactics. IMO stuff like that is essentially cheating
@@Manunido still better than you at it....
Great chat, thanks for sitting down with everyone, much appreciated
This is a really cool idea, glad to see an awesome collaboration.
I'm smiling here remembering when I was as young as Legend... Oh, a decade ago. Oh, my first TW was Shogun. Last: Rome 2. Never paying them again, unless something really miraculous happens. I'll just watch Legend every now and then and curse the company.
Was given Attila a few days ago, and having gotten into TW from warhammer then loving shogun 2 later, it's amazing how many good features would be perfect in warhammer and seeing just how much was lost, and then if I try to go back to earlier games like Medieval I just bounce right off it with the lack of QOL, and the atrocious UI
Seems we're always going 1 step forward 3 steps back
Not playing medieval 2 means Missing Out alot. The best mods in the series Like stainless steel, call of warhammer, broken crescent or lotr third age. Same goes for great Features which never Made a Comeback Like the recruitment system. And the best Thing, not 100 dlcs to Milk the sheeps.
@@nikallew50 After clocking 2000 hours in what came after, it's damn hard to get accustomed to.
Shogun2 is all you need Dirlewanger!
Based
Love to see it guys
To add to Legends statement about everything going to the wayside with the warscape engine. Some try to muddy the waters by saying "the warscape engine is purely graphics." And think that this is sufficient enough to debunk the critique.
From my understanding the total war engine was updated from TW1 to TW2 during the jump to full 3d in Rome 1 Total war.
Then they updated to TW3 for empire. And it was indeed a disaster and we have seen majority bad games every since then with only shogun 2 and it's expansions being stand out exceptions.
The problem is TW3 engine currently has an absolute mess of legacy issues and code that they have not gone back and fixed.
Juggernought, currently developing the Warhammer Rebirth mod from warhammer 2, has been meticulously going through the files for YEARS to try and fix everything and surprisingly you can indeed simulate as close as possible shogun 2 gameplay, and Rome 1/Med 2 in some aspects. All in warhammer 2 with fantastical creatures, tactical depth still is able to make a comeback in that. Although there are still a few issues for sure when it comes to the designs of the engine. With total war, still leaning on a fundemental level, having healthbar action orientated priority rather than tactical depth.
But to really exasperate the engine critique legend brought up
TW1 Engine - 2000-2002 (Shogun 1 - Medieval 1)
TW2 engine 2004-2006 (Rome Total war-Medieval 2)
TW3 engine? 2009 - 2023 (Empire - Total war Pharaoh)
Yup, CA has been running the current itteration of the TW3 engine for 14 years and counting. With "updates" appearing to be the team having to tack on plugins/updates to accomodate what the newest title needs to offer, creating a lot of spaghetti and bloat. Taking out one of these dozens and dozens of things could cause the whole house of cards to crumble and break the engine.
I'm no expert or game dev, nor do we have access to the level of source code that CA does, but the fact so many legacy bugs still exist since empire and a attentive modder can find that a lot of gameplay mechanics (line of sight for gunpowder units) are just an unticked checkbox burried in some table in the files somewhere? It suggests to me I'm right
Warhammer fans don't realised this sadly...
No matter how many parts you change in a car, if the engine's no good you won't get any far.
Oooh, reddit's gonna really hate this one.
Reddit is a bunch of slop consumers. Who caresz.
Reddits are still suffering from realizing they are the minority in America.
The Part 3 vid's comment section on Legend's channel proves you right.
F those reddit losers
super refreshing to hear these guys talking with you. glad they're willing to talk like this on their main channels too
I love and hate Volound. He often speaks the reality of the situation regarding Total War, and it's nice to hear that consistently.
His showing this discussion was pathetic, though. Seemingly here just to say "it's crap" repeatedly, laugh at every other thing Legend says, and overall, he REALLY just wanted Legend to say that Warhammer is crap.
At one point, he goes on some short bs ramble about "a TH-camrs duty." Bugger off. People can do whatever they please with their channels.
Showed very little respect for Legends' opinions. Seemingly just waiting for Legend to stop so that he can once again chime in and say, "hate everything about it".
Totally lacking in empathy or respect for anyone who doesn't explicitly agree with his opinion.
Again, I enjoy Volound. His opinions are usually pretty spot on, but he doesn't belong in any kind of debate, and his ego appears to be quite unchecked. Shocker. An online persona with a decent following possessing an unchecked ego.
Apollo did pretty well. Kinda weird that he couldn't understand that Legend simply likes Warhammer, albeit for different reasons than any of them enjoy the historical Total War games for.
Legend does well enough, too. He's respectful to all viewpoints and argues in favor of everyone at certain points, seemingly lining up with his very love-hate relationship with Warhammer. He struggles to get his point across often, though. I think that's part of the reason Volound and Apollo kept basically asking him to repeat his previous points in favor of Warhammer so many times.
I'm speaking in regards to the whole almost-4 hours video. Posting here in the hopes that Volound sees and understands my criticisms of the role he chose to play.
"People can do whatever they please with their channels" is just a platitude that is seen through the moment you do anything more than simply gloss over it. it has to pretend that we live in complete isolation free of judgement and consequences. its a total cop-out and is the only time you try to contest anything i said.
asmongold got cancelled by the whole internet for endorsing genocide.
darksydephil gets ridiculed constantly for being shit at games.
your comment fundamentally contradicts itself because i am literally doing what you say i can and you are doing exactly what i did - making judgements on it.
terrible comment.
@Volound No, sir. You chose to miss to the point of my comment. My point regarding your self-righteous rant was that YOU do not get state - as though it is a fact, and anyone who would do otherwise is wrong - that every TH-camr has to have some noble end-goal with their channels.
Not only that, but you proceed to dismiss the rest of my comment due to one hole you poked. No mention of your childish insults and lack of respect or empathy for others. My point stands. Your performance was not that of one who belongs in a debate-like setting.
Terrible response.
read aristotle. i did it when i was 12 so im sure you can manage it.
if your argument is that youtubers are ignoble and thats why shilling is fine and playing bad games is acceptable then fine. sounds like you are just digging yourself into a bigger hole.
im glad i poked a hole. it was the only thing i could find worth addressing by virtue of it actually doing anything but tone-trolling and whining.
shit comments.
@Volound I feel as though you do not understand what part of the discussion I am referring to. Here, let's try a third time: You stated that all people should have some sort of noble end-goal with their channels when this is simply not the case. Your word isn't fact, but it is a fact that your word is indeed not. Re-watch the discussion if you don't understand what I'm referencing.
No, I am not arguing that shilling is okay. Playing shit games is completely subjective. There are huge circles of people who believe that Skyrim and Oblivion are shit games, but they are spoken of as though they're amazing in the discussion. Pointless to go any beyond that.
Insulting me does not further any points you are trying to make. Again, there is no place for that in any real debate.
Oh, I'm sorry I didn't quote every time you snorted at the idea of people liking things you dont. Or laughed in Legends' face every time he attempted to say he likes Warhammer for whatever his reasons are. You were there to get Legend to say Warhammer is shit. That's basically all you contributed.
@@SpeakerTerenus just read aristotle. you havent done it. you didnt even google to see why you should. i said the word in the video. "eudaimonia". google it. what you are saying is either efforted nonsense or simply offhand whining.
No chance Total War ever be good again, there is unmitigatable lack of design ability in CA. It's full of modern design mixed with design by committee, CA needs new leadership (and I'm not talking about marketing or management) with some passion and vision. The bad thing is I have never seen a company that have done that with the franchise that made them. In the new Valve documentary for example you can see them recognize that they had hit a wall with Half Life and the passion was gone so they focused on other genres.
Never thought I'd see this day, bless you lads
The point on the morale system creating that extra dimension for tactics is spot on and one of my biggest complaints with the new games. Id be crazy not to mention your own play through as the Takeda and how you used Shingen with his baller mustache and his Fear attribute to cause large armies to rout with a well timed charge. How adding the element of having the terrain advantage mattered as well. All that really stuck with me as I've always been a history fan and could apply real life tactics like a well timed and executed cavalry charge to win a decisive battle. I always thought that was so cool to have games like that where tactics actually mattered. Now it feels so dumbed down.
gyazo.com/2079c80062128d639e698eae409e847e
absolutely. i still get comments on this aspect to this day.
and they vindicate everything i was arguing through this whole discussion.
The thing is, Legend, Naval Battles were sorely needed in Warhammer and they never added them They created this lame stopgap of "land battles but at sea". The setting was appropriate, there's even an entire tabletop subgame about warhammer fantasy naval battles. It's so bad that they didn't at least try to make it work there that it makes me think they fundamentally can't make them work. I doubt there's anyone at CA who still actually understands what is going on in their engine any more and I think they're just beyond broken.
Not really, like 95% of battles are fought on land.
@@mtth4222 "In this game with no navies or naval mechanics there aren't that many naval battles" hmm I wonder why.
This isn't even true, even on the map where the oceans are scaled down massively and there's nothing incentivizing naval battles unless you want it to be. But this is a really silly comment man.
@@Person01234 You do realize that some factions, chaos dwarfs, green skins, etc are landlocked and don't even set foot in water for the entire campaign. Even when you do, there is no incentive to fight in water cause your goal is to target settlments which are located on land. One of the few factions that does rely on sailing are Dark elfs with their Black arks. But even then, ship battles won't work since black arks are so massive and it would make more sense to have the enemy climb on them, which they made a map for.
@@mtth4222 literally nothing you just said is a point. Yes there are some landlocked factions, and? You know there are landlocked factions in empire?
There is no incentive to fight on the water, as I said. If there were, as their were in empire, you have a reason to.
The high and dark elves would both be significant naval powers, as obviously would the vampire coast, it would be important for anyone wanting to operate over the ocean, depending on what mechanics you have there could be reasons for other factions to. As I say there's a whole tabletop sub-game for warhammer fantasy naval battles. How many major naval powers were there in the 18th century? And yet...
Talk to GW about this one. Understand the problem before you complain about it.
March divided, fight united!
Dame i jump whene i saw the notification.
the best thing about total war is shitting on it. i dont think iv watched a legit lets play, tips and tricks etc video about a total war game in at least 10 years.
lol
Only person missing here is PrinceOfMacedon basically.
Yes he is legend
He's not as active online as he used to be.
Fuck no, I get nostalgia, but PoM just sucks
King of Phalanx army back in Rome 1 Total War scene...
Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time. I used to watch his Rome multiplayer videos way back in the day. What the hell happened to PoM anyway? Man just disappeared from youtube
Imagine if Paradox bought CA and used them as a department that ONLY made the battle aspects of a game and paradox made the campaign. Would be the ultimate strategy…
so you mean like one system of balance slider put into everything and everywhere and on top massive dlc costs overriding previous dlcs?
I recently had an epiphany which I think sums up our shared feelings : in the grand scheme of things there is not that many differences between the total war titles, meaning it has been 20 years that we play the same game with a slightly different coat of paint on it. That's why we don't enjoy it anymore. Because no one plays the same game for 20 years and still enjoy it the same way if at all.
Ever since I saw this, I started seeing more of these games that I've played too much. Counter strike 2 ? 20 years playing CS. Aoe 1/2/3/aom 20 years of playing the same different version of the same game.
I was someone who played game on a daily basis. Today I barely play because of it.
Thank you for having this conversation. For me unfortunately gaming has fallen.
I would agree if they had made a good game recently and we still didn't like it, I think this gap will be filled with a new dev
Wow this is long overdue! looking forward to future colabs where you share your views on Total War and CA.
so pumped to watch this!!
just skimming through the chapter titles of tis video. OH boy! In for a treat!!!
We shouldn't be relying on corporations to make good battle simulators and games. It's not going to happen post 2013
💯
Don't want to accidentally teach people how real life battle situations work, just feed them mindless arcade combat.
Dude, this was great, thanks for doing this.
52:50 How many Warhammer fans do you know? I think those people look so deep in to the mechanics that they lose interest in the game because its too casual.
Legend said, “Some people just want to auto-resolve every battle, so they can play on Easy.”
The hilarious part is that as of right now, at the tail end of 2024, every single battle is auto-resolvable without unit losses on Very Hard, including siege battles.
And the few times you get an unwinnable auto-resolve, you actually can’t beat the enemy army manually either purely because the units are so impossibly overpowered via power creep from the latest DLC.
This is a common issue in warhammer and a major design flaw. However, it is partly a skill issue. Auto-resolve success depends heavily on what type of armies you build. Building armies that are good in auto resolve is a bad strategy. If the auto-resolve overvalues your army it is impossible to outperform it. Expecialy since the type of units that are over valued (like melee infantry) have no tactical depth to them.
Best to bring armies that are bad in auto-resolve and good in manual battles, then the AI will underestimate you and you win easily. On the contrary, if the AI overestimates you they send in way more than they need to to win.
try this with vampires
I never clicked a video so quickly
What really grinds me most about the whole franchise is the tiring re-cycling of the exact same game with different coat of paint decade after decade.
Why not to focus on some stupid facial animations and bling when the base game could be expanded massively with the stuff they already have. It's this lazy, low bar marketing and business decisions that kills it.
Some who gives a shit list of stuff that would make me interested again after medieval 2 in the franchise:
- high focus on logistics
- no micro management of individual units on the battle maps, but pre drilled army manouvers
- higher autonomy for units
- economy upgrade
- massive overhaul of the AI
- complete siege battle overhaul
- ditch the turn based stuff
- give you the actual role of a faction leader or a general instead of some omnipotent god like figure
A good argument would be probably that it would not be a TW game anymore and likely so. Franchises come and go, but there should be actual innovation and risk taking. Why not to collaborate over long period with big vocal fans of the game series and make something together with them. The Unity of Command 2 is a good positive example of this kind of collab.
Great Video! This stuff needed said. I've been playing Total War most of life and have seen the decline. You guys are right we have to speak with our wallets!
I would listen to a monthly podcast of this, especially during the release window of whatever the next total war is! Nice to see the community come together 👍
I've picked up Age of Wonder 4 recently, and it was very refreshing to play a 4X game with ACTUAL good design all around, with very competent (and fair) AI, with DLC that actually synergize and elevate the rest of the game rather than just add a couple of stuff for a small corner of the game.
After having played TW for so long it was almost shocking to see how much better a 4X can be when the campaign map experience is well thought out.
The game is way, WAY more "arcady" than historical TW games, but when you compare it directly with the warhammer games, its not even a contest.
CA has long forgotten how to make good games.
Can’t call the ai much better higher difficulty also just spams units but I agree with rest it doesn’t just feel like cosmetic
Fucking hell, CINEMA MOMENT!
A wonderful day! I'm sending a big thank you to all three of you creators for this discussion. I think it brings people together and gets the message across of how fans FEEL. Most people who love total war don't want to see CA fail. I will gladly spend my money on other things until we get some effort put into what the fans want. (What I've been doing) To whatever end.
10:21 that silence when he bombed his joke so hard lmao
You're going into the crystals
Older TW games made it a principal point that battles had to be orderly e.g. you had a battle line in order for your units to maximally effective. If the lines broke and devolved into blobs that meant your units will take more casualties. Newer TW games are all about the blobs. Combat becomes a blob as soon as units start fighting.
The triumvirate of Total War has gathered, if that doesn't bring the franchise back on the right path, I don't know what will !
I saw both their video's in my recommended, but i haven't seen them, super interested in what the 3 of you have to say!
can't watch it right now tho haha, saved to watch later
Now's a chance
Paradox would be STUPID if they didn’t purchase the total war ip given the chance.
I mean, they are, it's just that CA blows them out of the water and into the stratosphere.
with the way paradox makse their games and how they manage their DLC it would be even worse than CA. Plus they actually haven't made a good game since HOI4 and even that was bare bones at the begining. CK3, Imperator and Victoria 3 really suck ass and no amount of DLC can fix it.
@@TheKMSDL the real question would be “Can they make a better total war game than CA”. I think so personally.
@@TheKMSDLfair enough but at least paradox DLCs tend to actually add stuff to the game, not just reskinned units like total war. Also majority of people agree CK3 is a good game so not sure why that’s included
Glad to see Legend grow up. Even if I watched him for his Medieval 2 content back in the day, he came across as arrogant and insufferable in general for no reason. Now he seems very grounded and it's a pleasure listening his thought process.
Guys, this was awesome. My three favorite TW content creators.
I especially appreciate the points being made about morale and defeating an army without annihilation.
I even wish TW would encourage more of that in the older games.
There was a moment playing MK1212 where I won a few large engagements and captured around two cities. To my shock, the faction requested peace and offered to be my vassal.
This is exactly what I always wanted more of. Meaningful battles with large consequences. I didn't need to grind my way stack after stack and conquer all of their cities to win that war.
1:11:36 just think about how insulting that is , they get almost a decade worth of investment from the Warhammer fanbase then use the money to produce Garbage like hyenas, then they also increase price of shadows of change because of that mess with no added value to Warhammer fans.
This is just morally wrong
Holy shit this is awesome! Would love an actual podcast of u 3
Oh dayum! What a meeting of the minds! Good one you guys.
32:15 multiplayer side of this is way worst , you can still get the enemy routed if you charge with 10 cav units at the same time in single player , in multiplayer that's never going to happen, is very common to have non unbreakable units fight to the last man and this becomes even worst when you can't run down units properly even when you manage to route them.
My favorite parts were when the three of you were cracking up and making jokes, the comradery gave me a weird sense of nostalgia I think. It's hard to explain really.
Hearing names and putting faces to those names was incredibly interesting. Realizing I've seen these people and being able to put a coherent timeline together, for once. Going to make a point to learn everything I can about as many of these execs as possible. The list just keeps growing.
Don't get me wrong, I think Legend is a good guy separate from his youtube persona and work space. I want to like Legend as a voice for the community, I'm really trying but he's really good at advocating against himself, it's actually impressive.
I learned so much and I'm anxious to apply it to the stuff I already knew. I don't wanna get too into it because I'll just type out my script. I pray you do more of these in the future. On to the next part.
Thank you.
yeah absolutely, it was seriously a long time coming. my first time being in voice with either of these guys and it was long overdue. we probably couldve stretched this convo out to 20 hours. totally agree about the comradery, and also what you said in your vid about this event being a pretty big deal. it feels like it.
btw if you ever have any questions about anything in terms of your videos and their ideas and script just message me. i check my youtube comments regularly but on top of that im on discord and twitter at least once a day.
ive talked to a lot of devs at this point (on top of just being around TW for 24y and TW youtube for 12+y). i have been piecing things together and publicising it heavily over the past year especially, but havent necessarily found good opportunities to get absolutely everything across in youtube videos. but at the same time im always happy to try to chip in when anyone comes to me with a video idea.
hope you enjoy part 2 and 3. things get spicey and i have a feeling you will get a lot from the rest of this convo.
@@Volound I'm blown away, I cannot adequately express my gratitude. Thank you for making yourself available as an avenue for information, your input would be invaluable and elevate my content to a degree of accuracy and usefulness that I could only hope to achieve on my own.
Looking forward to watching the rest and seeing what you post in the future. You will be hearing from me, thank you again.
Was interesting to listen to. While I think there were some things left out about Warhammer that also give it more strategic elements (that can be quite fun to learn and to use efficently), the big thing about morale thing is definitely a downer combined with the AI cheats (which eliminates a large chunk of strategic possibilities). Same with Rome 2, especially with that one's broken autoresolve.
Looking forward to the other 2 parts as well.
I just wanted to say, I've been playing total war since I was 13 (when I got my first pc) and I'm 30 now. Rome 2 and antiquity is my absolute favorite time period, and the bronze age even more so. I also use to paint Warhammer miniatures as a child. I've never had an issue separating my love of different pass times or even genres (not to talk about historical or fantasy). I like many others was excited for Warhammer fantasy, like Apollo I'm a very roleplay minded person. I expected this grand strategy with tons of customizations and leveling up lords and gaining gear and building your nation but instead it just became arcade slope. Genre shifts are never excuses for making bad games and I don't even newer fans want to play bad games, they just don't know better.
You talk too much about Warhammer to not invite in the discussion next time Indypride, Great Book of Grudges and others. You may be surprised on how far you would agree about the situation.
I always have to start these comments with, Medieval 2 is my fave total war, and was my first one. I also agree that current CA and Warhammer series has its issues. CA has gotten lazy in their design, and there are many things about these games that should be brought up to snuff. But I think calling Warhammers bad games, at least in their current states is pretty silly, and saying i'm a fake fan, or not a real fan, is also silly because I don't even disagree with the criticisms. I really would like to see a historical total war, one that competes with the old classics, but I will die on the hill that the design of warhammer three fits for a warhammer setting, and designing it to fit in the historical sense wouldn't work, and I think as we have seen, designing a historical title like the warhammer titles also will not translate well. Oh yea, the sieges suck wish they could be better, though I don't think all the maps are rancid. I miss the historical titles too, I really do. But I also seriously enjoy the Warhammer Series, and I think 3 is in a really good place, I didn't buy shadows of change until they fixed it and was put on sale, and the last DLC was really good. Theres a lot of hate from nostalgia, and sometimes I'm there too. But I really think the historical community should chill sometimes, I don't think this is a Morrowind to Skyrim situation, I think this is a Halo3 to Halo4 thing. Warhammer aint no Halo 5.
Yeah, these guys seem to miss the point of a game, ultimately, is entertainment. And whilst I think it's a shame that we haven't gotten a really good historical TW since Thrones there's still a lot of fun to be had in the WH series. And just because WH has more than three unit types that doesn't mean it's bad.
You can enjoy it as long as you want who could care less. But as long as this game profits CA and will be popular they are not going to make something new and better, we will have these plastic figures hitting the air without any tactical entertainment too and all we'll got are multiple variations of 3 kingdoms, thrones of Britannia, Troy (pretty atmospheric, but still bad), Pharaoh. Btw, notice that I mentioned EVERY single TW game since TWW, things are really bad indeed lmao
i really liked this. You really can see how much this franchise means to all of you and how much it hurts you seein it pulled through the dirt. Same here...
Rome 2 was my first total war and i play it to this day. But your point about morale was absolutely right, but whats really troubling is that the morale systems of rome 2 and shogun 2 work against each other. I have seen mods for rome 2 and tried to mod the morale system myself but what happens is that, if you try to go in the direction of shogun 2, rome 2 breaks completely and units rout not only extremely quickly but also randomly and that makes all cheap units completely useless because not only do they make no damage but they also won't absorb any.
something I see a lot of people who dont like the newer total wars say is they just hate the warhammer setting
My vision of total war as a kid was that it would visit different points of history so you can experience the warfare of that era
Man my youtube account got deleted and finding your channel again has been such a nice suprise
The Triamverant! This is going to be good.
"the newer it is the less of an excuse they have"
Gotta disagree there, to me its even less of an excuse if they could do it 20 years ago as opposed to 10 with a much bigger company
i already made that point. i was making another one to close the walls in and remove excuses. that was the point of saying that. i was removing excuses on purpose.
@Volound
Fair enough
yeah thats what i meant when i said "less of an excuse", was just describing that aspect.
of course, they should be able to do what they did 20+y ago. 100%.
@@Volound you might think so. But then you remember it's not even the same people.
@@spiffygonzales5160 lol yep "lost technology" is not even a joke. i used the phrase on a CA dev as a meme joke and they AGREED, thinking i was being serious.
the jokes are not even jokes.
It’s nice to see these guys discuss TW’s state. CA needs to take their community seriously, everything has been laid out for them to succeed for many years. It’s the same things that get bypassed and neglected. At the end of the day SEGA and CW want to run it like a business and do the minimums instead of truly making something great. Businesses don’t make good games, passionate people do.
Holy shit, it's REAL! Let's GO! Never thought a talk like this would happen at this point.
Great conversation!
total war has fallen; billions must micro
The best Warhammer experience is with Medieval 2's Call of Warhammer mod
that what schizo believe in
Is 3.0 out yet? It's been what - a year or more? I check modb biannually and they still don't have it there.
nah best Warhammer experience is Warhammer 3 cos im not going to use a mod that mostly will crash 9 out of 10
Call of Warhammer Beginning of the End Times is my shit !!!
I've been on a Wissenland campaign for over a year now. My empire is touching all sides of the campaign map and one turn takes like three hours to finish because I micro manage and double check everything and do not autoresolve any battles. And I love it.
@@mrwolf3939i played tons of mods and call of warhammer rarely Crashes for me.
This is awesome, id love to see yall do this again!!!
I don't like the position "we are just criticizing the game it isn't a personal attack" when a minute before you were refering to people who buy and like warhammer total war as the lowest common denominator, and there has been a lot of references to them being consumers who weren't around for the good old stuff (which many of us were)
They’ve had the infrastructure and funding to create a competent and effective AI, they refuse to soley to make it “more accessible”.
Volund, Pixel and Legend. Pretty much the authority fan-voice triumvirate on all things Total War with usually different opinions. To see you come together and discuss this is a five fire alarm that should be studied by CA, if they still care. It doesn't get more official than that.
Can we also mention just how dreadfully optimized these new warscape engine total war games are? Even several patches in, and on modern hardware, games like Rome 2 and Attila just do not run well. From consistent microstuttering, to framerate issues, to bad performance on the campaign map. Ironically Rome remastered, despite being a mid port, runs infinitely better than all of the current engine TW games. They really need to ditch this code and start anew, which they obviously won’t do.
Literally subscribed because i follow legend. Thanks for your support with the game. 😊
Yes, it all come to full circle, I love it.
One thing that is nice about TW games is how easy they are to mod (At least simple stuff). So you can easily change things like how morale works.
Its like when the villians side with the good guy
just like my favourite animehs
@@spaceracer6861 gimmie some sugar brotha
@@yoturaliaz6205 ကၜဠ
An absolute banger from the 3 guys that are the biggest Total War youtubers
Man I hope they play this at the Monday morning meeting at CA.
ahahaha they kinda have to.
been their policy for years to have staff there that basically watch all the "important" things that happen on youtube. basically an unwritten part of the job description.
'The absolute state of total war'
I can allready hear the shills crying and screaming about this.
I remember Medieval 2, Rome 1.
I just liked to watch battles themselves. Small scale, big scale.
It all was cool. Closest thing later is Shogun 2 and Fall of Samurai. But still it was full of holes.
Its all started from Rome 2 total war...............
cool shogun 2 footage in the background. Where can I find more?
@@MrBus359 thats my impossible battle series
@Volound I'll check it out, thank you!
It is good to see the the colonials conversing with eachother. Makes me proud.
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