If you keep making videos like this, you will teach people how to reason! Worse, you are now talking about hobbies and enriching life by direct experience, just letting all the secrets out - think of what will happen if you inspire someone to follow their curiosity and do something. What next? They discover joy? Personal agency? Learn how to advocate for themselves? Not to mention the ultimate - to develop into a whole person? Then what will game studio stakeholders do when they run out of rubes to market their shovelware to? Mark my words, nothing good will come of this.
2 Things: Thats the default animation for crossbowmen in Med 2, where they turn around to reload, crossbows without shield also do it. Only Pavise Crossbowmen and Genoese "Jesus Christ please nerf this shit" Crossbowmen have the shield.
The musket Units in Warhammer are probably what disappointed me the most about the game. I mean the three "Holy" Words of the Empire are "Faith, Steal and Gunpowder" its what let the empire survive the onslaught of evil forces and the Musket units in the game don't even have real firearm drills, they don't even reload.
@@kubaGR8 That may be right but in Empire, Napoleon and Shogun you could atleast watch your units reload and see details like the Ramrod being used, additionally, bullets weren't just reskinned Crossbow Bolts.
@@Jorakful I think Empire and Napoleon had proper reload animations. Shogun 2 units fired, and then just used the ramrod for like 30 seconds before shooting again lol.
There is first hand sources via the florentine codex from the Aztecs during the conquest of the americas that they thought the europeans literally possessed the ability of thunder when hearing shots from muskets, and that it would shake across the mountain tops and would come to even pierce your eardrums. CA: "So basically wet fart noises"
I love reading those old documents, especially having fired the weapons they talk about. It really is amazing. Just standing off to the side, you can feel the booming rumble of musketry. You can see the fire erupting from the muzzle. Even to modern soldiers, a solid musket volley is impressive. And these morons turned it into an arcade sound.
And it's not like the Aztecs were perfect angels who knew nothing of war. They were a brutal, savage and warlike civilisation. If indeed that is what you can truly call it.
Yup. I point that out all the time. The most profitable movie ever made. Literally everyone went to see it. But hardly anyone actually remembers it and anyone who does just says: "Yeah, it was alright."
"Don't care looks cool" isn't even a valid argument because it doesn't look cool lmao. Watching your musketeers reload their guns, fire, then kneel to let the rank behind them fire looks cool. Watching your crossbowmen reload their crossbows with a winch looks cool. A mass of projectiles ripping through a lightly armored unit and dropping half of the men looks cool. Wishy-washy weapons with no reload animations and a lack of impact upon hitting the enemy looks lame and boring.
to be honest , its not even a matter of "it looks cool" ...its more a matter of demand..and there is more demand for a good total war game ,than ever before...but the expectation has never met the demand..but the addition of more mainstream gamers has now madeup the numbers , making these games lose their tactical edge to make for quickerfights and a more better looking game to perhaps encourage those gamers :( ..but ahh do i not miss the great sound effects/music of rome,mtw1 & mtw2 which still echo in my memory with those iconic speeches [winks] :)
@@RJALEXANDER777 I have played all the Total War games from Shogun 1 to Rome 2 (except for Shogun 2 because for some reason it doesn't like my CPU, I need to upgrade my PC first... and I tried Warhammer but it has a crappy performance on my rig, so I'll have to upgrade for anything newer than Rome 2 too), there are a lot of things the series lost. Most importantly the modding capabilities. Medieval 1, Rome 1 and Medieval 2 have tons of total conversion mods that completely change the game and place it in a new location. From Empire onward, editing the campaign map is impossible so we don't get as extensive mods anymore. Warhammer scrapped a lot of the detailed reloading animations for firearms, and different firing drills. Shogun 1, Medieval 1 and Medieval 2 had gunpowder units perform countermarches. In Empire and Napoleon, you could unlock different firing drills (fire by rank, platoon fire) through research. Shields were a lot more important, in the new games they serve as additional frontal armor, in the old games shields could completely block missile damage (in the new ones, units take a small amount of damage even if the missile hits their shield). Medieval 2 is the most feature-rich game of the series, but there are some things in the original two TW games that got lost and were never brought back, like every unit having its own commander who gains experience just like your generals.
@@RJALEXANDER777 Yes, just take a look at Warhammer 1/2, Empire which is supposed to be the flagship faction of the Warhammer universe. The Space Marines of their respective time period, and what are the basic units of the pike n shot (sort of in the name, eh?) era that the Empire is modeled on? the Halberdiers (pike unit) and handgunners (musketeers/arquebusiers). So what happens after handgunners fire? They simply stand there, doing nothing. There is zero feedback to the player to let them know whether his handgunners are ready for another volley. A "feature" or basic function we took for granted just 5-6 years back, is entirely missing. Imagine if we removed walking animations? attack animations? Bow drawing animations? And their argument is like, "well... i'm glad they spent their time on better things like making all those different factions" as if those are mutually exclusive
This is the truest channel wrt the downfall of total war, speaking as someone who started with M1, you're speaking every complaint I've ever had, and have been downvoted onto oblivion for expressing
@@idontgetit2195 the immersion, and audio plays a big role. They tried to do their best to put you in the action. Now that's not the case, even though it's many years later and it's 2020. Hell, the siege battle AI still sucks. Warhammer barely even cares about it to even give you a full siege battle it's so bad. Just depth is lacking the more modern a total war gets. Feels hollow. Just models Or even the sandbox experience
Seeing how the artillery looks and sounds right in Three Kingdoms makes the infantry sound design seem even worse. It shows they understand how to make good sounds, but they just don't. Animations are important too. I thought I wasn't getting them on the Warhammer handgunners because I had low settings on my computer and it's a small thing, but it made them feel less impactful, on top of how hp bars make units feel less like men dying and more like bullet sponges.
I also hate how stats are pushed to the forefront of everything, back in medieval 2 i could easily understand that a unit of warhammers could easily beat an armored unit of soldiers compared to generic armored swords men, now its like im playing a f2p moba.
@@princesstinklepanties2720 Isnt two handed armor piercing infantry lose to much cheaper armored swordsman in Medival 2 because of two handed bug. As an example both janissary heavy infantry (840 cost) and diamounted gothic knights (810 cost) lose to dismounted feudal knights (570) while they were supposed to excell at killing such unit.
Harry McCusker to be fair about the animations, the sheer number of different animations the team has to do for a game with such radically different unit types makes small touches more difficult. It does seem pretty lazy though.
@@samurguy9906 I think they're also making an effort to reduce load on RAM by having less of them. That's as my theory with the gunners in Warhammer. Just shooting is quite short, but reloading would be a long animation and especially on a detailed skeleton, it could be quite a large file.
Shogun 2: The rolling cracks of matchlock fire thundering across the battlefield, the volume of fire of fire generating so much smoke it covers the battlefield in a haze that hides movement and fills the air with a bitter, acrid taste. The units practically invisible from any real distance, just fuzzy blurred figures obscured, save for when the rank fires a volley, and for a moment they become visible, cast in a red glow from the fire put out by their deadly and terrible black powder weapons, striking down their enemy with a weapon that cares not if its target is a peasant with a spear they can barely handle or a samurai with decades of training and experience. The bloody glory of melee combat made meaningless by the pitiless brutality of modern warfare. Warhammer : Barely audible pops made by firearms that must be using smokeless powder for how little smoke they put out Look how they massacred my boy
Fun fact, Warhammer Fantasy firearms actually *do* use smokeless powder, because it's not blackpowder or gunpowder in our sense of the word, but rather semi-magical alchemical mixtures.
for all those who would say its only a small thing that doesnt matter: if they cant get the small things right, they cant get big things right. theres actually alot of small things that annoy me that have never been changed like the deployment zones being the same for both attacker and defender when logically defenders should spawn in the middle of the map with attackers on the edge like in sieges. Reinforcements spawning too close and therefore sometimes literally ontop of the enemy without being able to get into formation and just instant killed by the enemy. the stupid "army" mechanic from rome2 that stops you detaching individual units and forcing you to have all units under a general as well as not letting you have multiple generals in a stack. you cant even do a simple move like taking your cavalry right before a battle and moving them on their own behind the enemy army then attacking with the main stack so that your cav spawns behind the enemy at the start of a battle. theres no sense of fighting and manuevering on the campaign map at all anymore. just making giant doomstacks and throwing them at eachother then tedious siegespam afterwards.
Right. That's what's so bad about Ca, not just that they have crap dlc policies, they do as well, but its the fact that the team at CA is both lazy and doesn't care anymore, half the issues in the video are explained with laziness the other half are because no one at CA cared enough to include that detail, such as the sounds, because the sounds they have likely took the same amount of time that getting accurate sounds would have done, but they don't care so they just went with whatever sort of maybe fit. I can't understand how people defend CA at this point (other than the CA shills, who they bribe, of course)
I agree with you sirs. I think I may understand why there are some who are uncaring to these aspects. There are many reasons, but I think its likely largely due to fans who come into TW post Rome 2. Like myself. If Warhammer was your first TW like me, you may have never played anything like it before and are blown away by what is available in game. That being said you would also be largely unaware of these seemingly nebulous issues. The lack of polish old fans expect, is irrelevant to the new fans who love the games without it. Therefore to them it is a moot point. I may have started with warhammer, but I love historical settings and realism and I have since started playing older TW titles and now understand where the discontent comes from. It is really disappointing that the quality seems to be in decline in various ways. Modern TW games only appear to be TW games at a very quick first glance, but the more you dig through them the more you realize how much depth and quality they are lacking. Hoping they turn things around, and stop ignoring criticism.
I think the people defending the small things need to take a step back so they can see that small problems are existant throughout the whole series (worse in recent games) and the small issues when added together are gigantic issues
Every time I play Rome 2 it just devolves into me getting as many 20 stack armies as I can to back each other up and using the autoresolve button because 40 stacks is too fucking many and I'm not about to let the computer have control of just some of my men and mess everything up on the battlefield for me. But I hate that it always becomes, "who has the bigger army? They win" instead of, you know, using fucking tactics
I really hate that you can't split your army up and attack from different angles. Hate how they have forced garrisons. Forcing all army's to have generals is stupid
The thing that really gets me is the fact that the games have less and less been focusing on volleys. Troops in a unit seem to just fire at will randomly at times, which gives the impression of it just being a giant disorganized skirmish (which most of the battles actually ARE now.) Empire, for all of its flaws, understood that the change from fire at will to volley fire was something that gave a real power and punch to ranged combat, which is why that upgrade was so important and impactful.
I think noobs got angry at archers just standing there. I’ve literally heard a guy say that he doesn’t know if his archers listened to his orders or if the game is glitched. So now they stagger shots so your archers are firing 24/7.
@@idontgetit2195 Ranged Ranked and volley fire vs Fire at will. He is saying that Having your troops fire all at once feels awesome, especially vs fire at will.
I fell like the "battlefield feeling" was really excellent in Napoleon TW. The smoke and explosions are really well done. It also features the big wabbly smoke clouds and big craters from cannonballs.
Wow, I never really used Slings that much in Rome because I thought they were kind of lame, and I am a sound design freak. You've opened my eyes to a new world dude, hell, those real people shooting Slings actually look badass! Thanks!
Yeah well-trained slingers were scary. You can kill someone just by throwing a stone at a person's head. Make the stone out of lead and up the velocity a few times over and you're going to cause internal bleeding and shattered bones wherever you hit.
As well as Empire i personally think both Napoleon and Empire Total War did a good job on the guns. And when listening to this video the gun sounds from medieval did sound more like canon fire to me than actual musket sounds yet i have to say that i do prefer canon fire over dull nurf gun fire from warhammer.
Lars Dijkmans I mean, to be fair, Empire’s Guns were a lot less effective that they aught to have been, but it was still a very fun experience. Except for the crashes. Duck those.
I find it rather sad how arrows and bolts in Rome total war and Medieval 2 could be easily seen as they were so beautifullly rendered and presented that they could literally block out the sky if packed densely enough but nowadays, we need these ugly projectile trails to even see them Also, 39:02; the medieval 2 crossbows ( or any ranged weapons in that game) were infinitely better than guns in warhammer
As a historical-style archer I wish they put more details on the ranged weapons. The one thing I can't stand is the archers keep their bows draw at full draw for a long period of time. In reality few can keep a warbow draw for that long and it makes no sense. Also I wished you could change arrow angle, for example high arc or low arc. And javelins....you can't hold 15 javelins and throw it 100 yards, Troy....please stop
If they really gave a shit, they'd make Javelin skirmishes pick up enemy javelins and throw them back, like how real skirmishers from that era did it, they'd trade javs till one side decided to stop throwing.
What do you think about the archers firing their arrows bombardment-style? Say, when an enemy unit is placed behind a wall, and the whole archer regiment just fires straight up, at an enemy they can't even see.
Only 10 minutes into the video, so not sure if you covered it, but one thing you missed was how bogged down infantry under missile fire becomes,in MTW2 a unit of heavy knights will be unable to move and will flinch when under heavy fire, making shitty units like peasant archers able to pin down a unit in place. In newer game the missile fire doesnt seem to affect units at all, and they will move at their usual space
Nah back in the old total war games armour actually worked and mattered those knights where pin downed but they kept slowly coming still, now in the new games either range units are so OP they ripe though armour like it was tissue paper or they are so weak those can't kill even kill the weakest units.
@@PoLaNd4life96 in fact it makes those infantry even more scary i think, since your firing on them and while slowed down their still coming. like a unstoppable force. In new total war now they either die or they don't no more suspense and they don't slow down.
and med 2 is broken asf. Killing a whole army with 2 units of cav can't be balanced. And remember how bs horse cavs was? I won't welcome any change that will bring back those bs units.
@@kaleidoscope3234 it's not like modern Total War titles are anymore balanced. Magic in Warhammer is completely broken. So are certain single entity units.
Much needed video. I grew up playing Rome 1, and I haven't bought a single title since Attila. It's so insane how games from the PREVIOUS CENTURY are still topping the triple A titles released by the same franchise. It's actually like they stopped caring, and until they do I'm not spending another cent. I'll stick to Medieval 2, thank you very much.
I don't know man. I really dislike that being critical of a game series gets you banned. Good criticism helps keep games good, just constantly bowing your head or making excuses for a games failings means nothing will change. There should have been a full scale revolt when Rome 2 came out. I remember another TH-cam total war content maker, constantly excusing the games failures, glitches, and down right unacceptable lack of polish while posting battles and campaigns, and thinking "Wow, if you actually stopped making excuses maybe this game won't sell well and they can try again with some learned experience." An argument I see out there is "well if the game doesn't sell well they won't make another." To that I say that we should be asking for better games, not for good game series to get worse and worse until they limp along and fade out. Keep up the videos man, I really like your thoughts on this stuff and I can tell you love the series and know what you are talking about.
I was banned from the Warhammer forum on Steam, for questioning a 3-day suspension which I got for making a very gentle joke at CA_Joey. It was done by CA_Grace and then guess what? She proceeded to delete: Every. Single. Post I had made on that forum. The only sign I was ever even there was where people quote-reply to me. I think this was done to hide the fact that I had been a constructive poster and had not reciprocated the heaps of personal abuse Joey and Grace allowed to exist there, but just consistently advanced my point that CA had forgotten how to make a Total War.
It is a sad day when modders for the old total war titles are better game makers than the actual studio, but yet again by now most of the old staff who created them old great games have left CA i think (or hope at least otherwise it means they just lazy and are making below standard games on purpose).
my fondest memories from Medieval 2 was heroically defending a steep hill top with a battered down english army against french while being outnumbered 1:10 and winning through sheer firepower of english longbows and superior positioning
Danish axemen defending a bridge crossing from 2-3 stacks of French knights while manogels felled hundreds at a time with firery death balls right over their heads was mine. Each shot was a nailbiter. Any mishap could spell a rout and a wide open lane into my more fragile occupied German interior. As much as I like Attila as the last of the old school TW titles, even that saw the death of dynamic differences in terrain, towering mountain defences and rivers and gorges with only ONE crossing.
Thanks for the shoutout. I think a lot of the streamlining has to do with the game's AI. It's no secret that Total War has never had very good AI, and it often struggles to contend with more advanced mechanics. Fatigue, proper placement of units, the formation and placement of their army, so on; all of these the AI struggles to contend with at times. So they heavily streamlined these to make it more capable of challenging the player. Warhammer is the most egregious example of this, and I say that as someone who has played hundreds of hours of it in enjoyment. Fatigue generally doesn't really matter compared to unit stats, experience is less important. Terrain provides a much more minimal advantage and generally speaking the AI can get by or at least present a threat by just directly charging the player heedless of any other circumstance. This is also why handgunners are so similar to bows and why low-arc fire is a thing- the AI is able to more easily handle these units when they fire consistently in almost any circumstance. One might look at Ultimate General: Civil War as the counter-TW here. The enemy units contend with as much depth as the player's experience is meant to be, and so the AI must step up to the task of commanding. UG:CW's AI is plenty capable of forming battle lines, flanking, scouting, falling back to defensible positions, breaking the player's center or rolling up his flanks, so on. It still does best when it outnumbers you, but the difference between it and TW's AI is that it generally wins by the fruit of its labor rather than the game being designed to facilitate it having to do as little as possible to threaten you.
It seems to me that the game they'd rather be making is Total War: Arena rather than Shogun 1 or Medieval 2, to pull in the MOBA/RTS crowd. Maybe they're thinking they can appeal to both audiences at once, or maybe the second crowd is more lucrative.
I'm new to total war but legit got hooked on shogun 2 for a week straight and surprised myself cause I legit had no idea I liked these types if games.Played 3 kingdoms and lost interest in 2 days.I don't know why but it didn't have that impact.
@@psychofreak7382 try medieval 2. It has some problems (actually a lof of problem) regarding unit's behaviour and pathing, but everything else is head above all other total wars.
@Xadion The RTS Genre had been stagnant for nearly two decades prior to its 'Mobization' and likely would have continued to shrivel away further had something not happened to breath some life back into it. It just turns out what that that breath of life was didn't sit well with old-school RTS fans.
Holy shit man, of course i remembered the dishonored 2 pistol being bad but not that it was *that* bad. You weren't even joking there, between enemy footsteps it's actually really somewhat hard to hear it. Shit like that really seems like a small thing at first but string a few examples like that together and the experience can already be severely ruined and that's without even having talked about the core mechanical issues of the game then. You did a really nice job throughout the entire video in highlighting how much of a difference seemingly little things like that can make already. I also appreciated the statement from you that there isn't always the need to change things, especially when the motivation is really just changing things for the sake of changing, like without any legitimate reasoning. The Dishonored 2 Pistol would actually be a perfect example for that again.
yeah man it surprised even me. i dont think it was ever fixed. that was from this video of version 1.4 which was july 2017. about 8 months after launch and was still like that. it was deliberate and i have no idea why. we will never know. very unnerving. no rhyme or reason.
There was a game where a gun's sound had to be nerfed, because it made a whole faction overpowered. I don't think people understand how important weapons sounds are.
@@Seth9809 it was return to castle Wolfenstein multiplayer mode and the expansion. the sound wasn't nerfed. they devs weren't meddling idiots =p what happened was there was 2 guns mp40 and Thompson. the rumor was that the Thompson was better. and the devs were like how its exactly the same stats. then they realised it was the sound design and one of the wisdoms of this realization was imparted to the world to try and make better things of it. they didn't nerf it. it didn't make them overpowered. players thought It was more powerful =]
The passionate developers who made the first games are long gone. That´s the one and only reason why has all this happened. They saw that their managers and ceo´s wanted to make money instead of something they would be proud of. Many studios turned to shit after the key developers carrying their first games that made them popular left because of utter garbage management focused only on making money and nothing else. It´s pathetic that these people get to such positions that they have power over games development to the point they can run it to the ground over the years and the worst thing is, they dont care. They´ll just move on to another studio with another game that they can do the same thing, ruin it, because they are there only for the money and only that.
@@victuz People who criticize capitalism are self destructive morons who have no clue how horrifying life is under different conditions. They must believe that socialists and communists make excellent games or something. You can make money with a product you can be proud of. That's not anti capitalism. The problem is the audience is mostly made out of sheeple who will mindlessly buy whatever looks pretty. Why would the developers put any effort into a good quality, well balanced, historical game when the majority of the fanbase prefer that bullshit Warhammer? There's no incentive for it.
@Half life 3 "BuT sOcIaLiSm Is CoOl MaN. WhAt ArE YoU, a NaZi? VeNeZuElA iS nOt ReAl SoCiAlIsM. BeRnIe iS gOnNa MaKe Us LiKe DeNmArK." Except the Danish themselves told Bernie to shut up and stop smearing them because they aren't socialists, they just have very generous welfare programs. I have the same problem with Fallout fans. Bethesda screws them over again and again, yet every time a new game comes out the fans can't give them their money fast enough. They pre-order the games, fork $200 for the collector's edition, even buy toys as if they were children. Then Bethesda inevitably screws them and they go "REEEEE Capitalism". It's like, for crying out loud, stop buying overpriced crap. If you reward them no matter how badly they do things, they will have no incentive to do better. That's not a problem with Capitalism, it's a problem with these fanboys.
@@simpbeforeusleep Capitalism doesn't birth sheeple that mindlessly consume trash. Or do you think that if you take away freedom of enterprise and choice somehow people are going to become discerning customers? People are that way naturally, unfortunately, and it's made worse by a culture that doesn't teach people how to exercise their role as customers in a market economy.
CA forgot that slinger's proyectiles were mainly made of lead and had enough weight that the impact could blew your shield away from your hand and bend you armor, there's no way you could move against a volley of sling fire. There's no pinned down effect on troops anymore
Their was a reason the Romans invested in very large, interlocking thick shields and it was not to shade them from the sun, it was to stop the rain of lead flying at them.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD i mean... in fairness, EVERYONE used large oblong shields of various shapes, well, everyone who wasnt using the greek aspis style shields and Romans weren't the ones in dense overlapping shield walls, they were often in fairly open order you want those, ask the barbarians they faced, they had the dense overlapping shield walls
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD it's a wall. of overlapping shields. and we know according to ceaser that gauls marched in tight formations with shields that often got pinned togfether by pila due to the overlap first rule, dont ever get hung up on formation terms for infantry, hot take: a phalanx is not a special formation, it's a block of dudes, with shields and spears, that's it. EVERYONE marched in rouch blocks with lines of shields and spears because the spear was common as hell as a primary weapon
Two points regarding the crossbows around the 14 minute mark: would they be doing less damage to the enemy as they are in trees? I think that trees are given an area on the ground under them within which missile units are automatically less effective, rather than the unit they are shooting at getting a defence bonus from the trees though I could be wrong. Secondly, I think they're trying to limit how effective crossbows are in the game since Attila where they were brutal (and bugged, where if you put them on a palisade they'd have no reload time and fire like machine guns - entertaining to watch and use, but not realistic at all). In Attila also, slingers (hurlers) were done quite well in that they'd outstrip same tier archer units for kills quite often but would need better micro to use them effectively. Attila arguably has some of the better battle mechanics in the current engine, but isn't perfect by any means.
I think the layer games give a flat bonus against damage from projectiles, because it's Les intensive on your computer than modelling projectiles potentially hitting trees as they fly. Not sure if that would make them worse when shooting from the woods.
Trees are a cover source, it wasnt introduced into total war until Empire I think. Units are harder to hit inside a forested area. But as for firing out of trees, they might be affected, but theyre not "less accurate". Ever since shogun 2, the accuracy of bow units is like a flat tax. If they have a certain accuracy, theyll always shoot at that accuracy. Only misdirection (a unit changing its course), or weather can cause a units accuracy to potentially be worse. There are special abilities and other modifiers that improve accuracy and in later total wars maybe decrease as well. But Trees are not supposed to reduce accuracy.
from what i remember, in shogun 2, units in tress eill sometimes shoot into tree trunk infortn of them but usually same damage to the enemy unit than without the trees, and better covered against enemy arrows than not
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 Trees block objects friend or foe. There are units/factions with forest related effects like Wood elves getting +50% accuracy in woods. People have being pressing CA to change it like the strider skill (ignore terrain penalties), whose models now pass through trees, as it seems really odd for the tree huggers to put arrows into trees.
@@joevenespineli6389 they are strong to a point. they have to be well defended or their crews get rushed by infantry or flanked by cavalry. and because they are immobile, they can't run away and reposition as easily as archers can
@@InTecknicolour I mean you can't really compare them to archers, cannons are artillery a better comparison for them are the ballistas and onagers, archers then can be compared to the light infantry whose job is to harass the enemy line troops. My point is they have different purposes.
@Aleksa Petrovic I agree although I primarily use howitzers in Empire with canister(?) shot for the Europeans once Im able to, never really played as the Indians although its a pain to deal with their giant ass cannons. Also I disagree that anyone in Napoleon has a reduced firing rate due to their reload speed being sped up to the point that cannons can be placed alongside your own line infantry to decimate the approaching enemy infantry. (I'm a very defensive player.)
Its so sad that the empire, a faction who's army is characterised by pike and shot tactics, is put into a game where there are no pike walls, spear walls or gunlines. Its so dissapointing that whenever I want to play the empire I'll load up the medieval 2 warhammer mod to play them. As fancy as the animations are, CA dropped the ball on the blackpowder factions of warhammer, I loved pikewalls in medieval 2, so why can't empire do them? I love a good dwarf shieldwall, but such a thing doesn't exsist in the game. Don't get me started on Artillary All I'll say is that the only reason that people post about how much they love them is because of their effectivness in battle, not their feel, sitting back and listening to a battery of 12 cannons fire away was like sweet music in medieval 2, in warhammer, its to see how much that giants hp goes down by in a single shot
The blackpowder units’ animations are crap, but there’s a reason you can’t create pikewalls in warhammer. It has to do with the lore. Why would you create a wall of pikes that is very very slow? There are wizards who can shot meteors at you, people who can raise the dead behind you, monsters make your pikes feel like splinters. Dwarves shieldwalls don’t really happen in the lore that often, but units do have a shieldwall, it activates when the unit stops moving. Think all of the creators problems can’t apply to Warhammer mostly because it’s Warhammer. They wouldn’t be faithful to the lore if they did all the things this man wanted. Other games are free reign though.
Totally A Jake Pauler but I’n war hammer lore they do use pike walls there on the table top and actually a pike wall work very effectively against monsters the drake weld guard use them to fight off Minotaurs
@@goastlyarrowplays I'm not familiar with the lore but irl if 200 people got killed for being so bunched up you would blame the commander for not ordering them into a different formation, you wouldn't say the unit type itself was at fault unless it repeatedly happens. For example at the battle of Cannae Roman legions were absolutely destroyed because their enemies were more maneuverable than the Roman soldiers, but the Romans didn't stop using legions. They just also used other units to back them up
@@jakecarson2653 right but this isn't irl in Warhammer to bunch up so much like that your going to get fucked over by any monster (gorebull, chaos spawn, giants or a charging grimgore) irl tactics suggest you shouldn't run into cannon fire but guess what chaos do it as well as the empire in the lore so it's not particularly the devs fault for the tactics that "work" irl against humans not to work against humans in game
The detail they put in their older games was just amazing. Iirc in medieval 2, if you set your gunpowder to defensive they used rank shooting instead of countermarching or how pike units actually change their pike walls depending on whether they are in guard or not. Its little touches like these that made these games masterpieces. The newer ones just lack any of these little things that made medieval 2 immersive.
I missed the days when Total War units have actual weight to them. Cav has always been my favorite unit to use and them wiping out a division of infantry with one good charge brings a very special type of satisfaction. It always exciting to see them come crashing down into the hordes of enemy men. It's like two stones smashing into each other. I never get that same satisfaction when using cav in shogun 2 Everytime I send them to charge the enemy from behind, it lacks any force or build up to the charge. Men would be launched hundreds of feet by the charge but it feels so simulated and fake. Like if the men were dolls being thrown around. It's like watching to two inflatable balls colliding.
@@EresirThe1st but it's fantasy and it can't afford to have instant kill charges with the giant monsters or they would be more insanely op than they already are...
@@EresirThe1st they have counters, but if the charges of the single entities instant killed half of those counters, elite spears, would fall apart on contact. and it's some heavy nostolgia talking to critise total war units for feeling samey, litterally every unit in medieval 2 is near identical to every other one. you essentially have different teirs of "ranged" "infantry" "light infantry" "cav" "light cav" "seige" "gunpoweder" and that was the game. but nowadays 13 factions that all play entirely differently from one another is "every unit feeling fundamentally the same"? like I agree things could be better but gtfo of here with those rose tinted goggles looking at the past
I'm surprised more people don't understand that M2TW was the best one. Cavalry charges were thunderous and devastating, archers and crossbows sounded dangerous and did damage appropriately, infantry acted as your main battle line and could defend strategic points effectively. Everything just felt right on the battlefield. For several games in a row now it's been either have the strongest single character or just mass spam the broken unit.
@@lukaruter I do agree that long spears and pikes work way better and while the cavalry charges feel better in M2TW to me Rome's cavalry did react to your orders better and maneuver a little better.
That's your opinion tho not a fact. I enjoy more warhammer because is so entertaining and that makes it, in my opinion, a brilliant game. And i dont care who has the best single entities or unit spam I just want to play and not complain
Another thing to add with crossbows and firearms in Warhammer. The Empire Crossbows are NOT considered armor piercing and they'd at most kill one or two heavily armored individuals in a unit. For the best ranged armor piercing you need gunpowder units
I like the new games but I'd never picked up on all of these sound & animation differences and it's totally true. Gunpowder looks & sounds so much crispier and creamier in Shogun 2 and Medieval 2 than in WH2.
and get this, *they* don't even sound as good as actual black powder weapons do irl, medieval 2 is the closest you'll get. You'd think with their extra resources CA would actually record black powder weapons shooting as oppossed to what ever they do, but instead it somehow got worse
@@wisereaper4747 recording an actual black powder weapon shooting would make for AWFUL sound design, it is FAR more complicated than just recording a sound and translating it lol. I agree they should sound better but like wut
@@oneringtorulethemagicarp7199 why would it? is it because its too loud or something? it should be as easy as recording the sound unless you can't capture the sound properly, I suppose. I've done sound design before and most sound designers think they're improving gun sounds by adding in needless shit, when compared to what they're emulating, from what i've seen, they sound so bad.
@@wisereaper4747 keep in mind, when you normally record something you do it in a place with no real reverb/shit that messes with sound. Can't practically do that with firearms
Keep in mind this is a different engine, different mechanics, different limitations. It's not just building off of old stuff and honestly, I'd rather more good content then minor details, honestly.
Felt this exact way for years. There's a reason I shifted to Ultimate Generals Civil War, even if it's not a time period I really care for, it's just that the base gameplay actually hits home and tries. Everything CA has done for Total War has been basically like an ex who was once at the top of their life and was super promising, only to take up a bad weed habit and just never go anywhere or commit to anything beyond half measures.
Unfortunately civil war is in-itself a dumbed-down and arcadey version of the original Ultimate General Gettysburg- worse ai and a terrible control point system, both of which were done much, much better in the first game. You also have to micromanage your artillery ammunition, instead of them automatically using whatever is applicable to the range for the unit they're firing at.
@@Olorin486 In that case, I'll give the original a try and compare. It's the nature of the gaming industry to unfortunately degrade a product, but I still retain hope for Darthmod's personal projects as he was absolutely right about the state of CA.
You should have a look at Grand Tactician as well. Don't buy it just yet - it's in early access and still needs a lot of work to be ready -, it does however have a similar style to the total war games and has IMO the potential to do it a lot better
Seems to me that the Rome 2 fiasco is the root cause of all this. It was promised to be the next big leap in the franchise with the biggest budget yet and ended up being a dissapointing mess. Since then they've gone to the complete opposite end of the risk spectrum releasing low effort rehashes. Ranged combat, like many other game systems, really hasn't seen any change since Rome 2. Fans keep buying historical titles and Warhammer is printing money, doing anything other than what they are doing right now would be to abandon the gold mine they discovered. Really, I see no reason to keep interest in this series. CA is happy, fans are happy and the disgruntled fans are both disenfranchised and such a small minority that it's simply not worthwhile listening to them.
The circlejerk is strong in this comment section all around, but you just might have taken the prize. You might not like Total Warhammer, it's frankly ridiculous setting and the more arcady gameplay, plenty of people don't. But calling it a "low effort rehash" is the pinnacle of absurdity.
@@felixloewenich2202 I have not played any great deal of Total Warhammer and nor do I plan to. Nothing about those games interest me and they are not what comes to my mind when I talk about Total War. When I say that every game feels like a rehash I'm talking about the games I've played, the side of the franchise I used to enjoy, the historical titles. And you really can't call this comment section a circlejerk if you ever visited the official forums or the subreddit, which lack any form of critical thought or self awareness. But chances are that's where you come from.
@@SweArdaia Right, yeah. I don't 100% agree with the popular opinion in here, so I must be a troll. Glass houses and stones dude. Also it is entirely possible for there to be more than one circlejerk simultaneously in the world. Just because the subreddit might be one doesn't mean you guys aren't just happily wanking each other off in here too.
@@felixloewenich2202 It's not difficult to see both yours and Ard's point. Sure, it's obvious a lot of effort has gone into Total Warhammer,. But on the subject of the video, that gunpowder units are copy-pasted crossbows, or that in general the ballistics are just fcked, it's hard to argue that the cause is anything but laziness. I bought and played Rome2, Total Warhammer, Total Warhammer 2 and Three kingdoms, but I can never finish my campaigns cause I just lose interest. I could never put my finger on why this was the case because on paper it should be fun and interesting gameplay, until now, when I realize without the immersion the experience is just kinda "meh". In Shogun2 I've finished practically all clans on legendary, my playtime is like 10-15 times that of the other 4 combined. I don't even mind the fantasy or romanced history of it. It's fully possible to immersive yourself in fantasy settings, but the parallell between this world and the fantasy/romanced world can only be stretched, not broken. For the purpose of illustration, imagine the Lord of the rings films, but all the orcs wield chicken drumsticks instead of the fantasy (but very realistic application) cleaver-like weapons. The rest of the movie series would still be awesome, and a lot of effort obviously went into it, but as a whole, the experience would just fall flat on its face. However, back to Ard's point, I still bought these sub-par TW games, and CA made a lot of money off of me, so I gave them no incentive to fix it. I think us TW fans, or at least me, just got too accustomed along the way to expect quality gameplay from their titles and took it for granted, thinking that no matter what, it would be worth the money. It wasn't.
I remember at least ONE unit in Medieval 2 that didn't require any micro to start ranked fire. Calivermen, the Irish unit from the Brittania campaign. They come with skirmish on, which is a problem in itself. I was scratching my head at the aesthetic criticisms until I realized that it DOES affect the enjoyment of the game. Also seems intentional that the ranged weapon sound got weaker to reflect how impotent they feel to use. In Rome 2 and Attila, most of your ranged units aren't going to get kills unless the enemy has their back turned. And in Warhammer onwards, we've got the fucking health pools.
One of my most vivid memories of Total War was of playing with Portugal in Medieval 2 when my teenage mind decided that I would start a campaign without cheats and on a higher dificulty than I was used to. In one of the earliest battles I endend up facing a numerically superior army which included feudal knights, mounted and dismounted, with a mish mash army of militias and pesants and two thirds of those archers and crossbowmen, but I was lucky to find myself on a map with a massive, very steep cliff on my deploiment zone. I deployed my very thin line of infantry at the base with a massive block of archers and crossbowmen in a way that allowed for every man to have a direct line of sight to the enemy. The madmen did it, it was an heroic victory. Also, on the topic of slings, I remember being surprised and fascinated when I was taking my archaeology degree and on one of my classes on the early roman republic, the teacher mentioned how the roman army incorporated dedicated slingers who used near bullet shaped lead projectiles on which they would ocasionaly inscribe the typical soldier's trash talking. So yeah, slings are underapreciated.
The Three Kingdoms arrows kinda make me feel like I'm in some cheesy Chinese movie. The shogun 2 arrows felt the best and looked the best, at least for me.
This always reminds me of my issue with Richard Beddow. His stuff always seems designed to just blend into the background rather than add to the thematic presentation of the battle as Van Dyck did.
i think we can sum it up , that total war games were first made with alot of love in its premise by the early designers,with very little in the way of graphics and/or computing capacity, and they stretched the boundaries with what they had,to make it enjoyable and playable ..and it shows, whilst the newer versions are a more industrialized programs meant to satisfy the demand , providing regular updates and additions[almost like a tv program series..rather than a big movie] and make major profits for the organisation, rather than show any real love/belief in what they do :(
Man I appreciated hearing someone talk about the true power of slings, I've been practicing mine a few months now, lemme tell you it is absolutely no joke!
Yo bro, while watching this video I was thinking about how you sounded so familiar. Well apparently like 5 or so years ago I watched your shogun 2 otomo campaign and now its all coming back to me. Love the vids man and keep it up
I’m surprised you talked about ranged combat without even mentioning Empire or Napoleon. Especially once you got into firearms in the middle of the video
There was no point talking about them, both of those games were before shogun 2. Which had pretty good gunpowder units. Plus those games are solely meant for gunpowder, obv they are good with gunpowder.
Adrian Shephard considering this video is about ranged combat and they’re the only two games in the whole series which are solely focused on ranged combat I think they’re at least worth a mention. Shogun 2 has different mechanics especially for its gunpowder units.
Adrian Shephard If they’re the only games 100% focused on ranged units how are they not relevant in a video about ranged combat? 😂😂😂 Also, if they have the best gunpowder mechanics shouldn’t they be used as the benchmark for the best possible way to implement gunpowder units?
@@j_viking3268 1. Gunpowder games are solely meant for ranged combat, meaning that the ranged combat is obv the best. 2.This video is about ranged combat against other units too. Those 2 games are ranged units just facing against each other. What about ranged units against melee units, thats a huge part about this video. 3. This whole video wasnt only for gunpowder you fucking idiot, only a small section was put in for gunpowder. Volound probs just forgot about empire and napoleoon.
This is video is so important and so true, really there is no reason for them not to fix this. I get the arcadey, fast paced combat of recent titles if they makes them more money, but really this is all about animations, sound design and visual design, and it's not like they would take them a great deal of extra effort to fix this, is just about changing their priorities and what they are trying to achieve. The point you make about slingers in Rome 1 and 3K is so incredibly clear and exagerated i don't see how someone wouldn't want this or agree with it.
Hoenstly, when I tried Warhammer total war after not having palyed a Total War game for a long time, i didnt like the "feel"of the combat, without me being ablte to put my finger on the exact cause. You nailed it.
I'm glad you pointed out about the shitty clipping of the archers with them having their unit models sunk all the way upto their shins. I had the blind defenders try to chew me out on my intial reactions of the warhammer total war pre-release battle footage when I said its amatuer for their models to constantly be clipping like this. "Its nitpicking!" except it really isnt, not when even the models themselves clip. As in their entire fucking heads phase through their shields while standing idle. Showing the 3D model artists and the animating department had zero communication or just couldnt be bothered. This is actually a huge thing because people like me like to press K to remove the hud and soar through the battle at low altitude to soak the entire thing in in awe of these thousands of men fighting. And in Warhammer onwards it becomes an indecipherable mosh pit of clipping and set kill moves. For example throw a unit of bats into the middle of a melee. The bats will actually glitch and irratically skip around the frey at mach 10 phasing through all sorts. Like I said, amatuer for such a big budgeted game.
The problem with TW, like you called out is that it's not about TW or the experience anymore, it's about profits. I remember that PC Gamer magazine and that OG Shogun demo, it made me buy and fall in love with TW also. The point of battles were that tactics rule the day, every unit is effective if it's strengths are maximised (archers on a hill or in forests) vs maximising your opponents weaknesses (cavalry have the charge and work well in open terrain). Someone needs to build a new game and bring the fans along with them.
They are based around firearms so you would have to criticize the whole game. And most of the problems mentioned don't apply to Emipre at least. The crack of the guns, the smoke is mediocre, cannons sound like cannons should, bullets seem to travel in a straight line at a high velocity so idk. Also cannonballs hitting the ground is the most legendary sound.
Criticizing games on their reddit subreddit is always a hard thing. It seems like there are so many people (maybe the younger genereations?) that just can't take any kind of suggestion or gameplay evolution that isn't the currently in the game. I have a good 50% chance of my posts getting deleted in pretty much any game if you criticize anything, even if its worded in a constructive manner.
It's millennials doing it, not zoomers. I am a young guy myself and my generation never really acted like this, it's always the older ones in their late 20s and mid 30s deleting everything. At least in my experience.
Reddit is trash anyway, it's a braindead site used by morons who can't take any form of criticism of what they like or believe in and shut down any discussion. You should avoid it
It's not necessarily the younger generation. It's fanboys. People whose entire lives revolve around one thing, a game in this case, and wouldn't know what to do if they couldn't enjoy it, so they don't allow themselves to listen to any criticism.
I'm so glad you showed some actual warbow archers on TH-cam, arrows in real life don't just have impact, they even have that very distinct whistling sound when they're coming at you. Medieval 2 isn't completely realistic or perfect but it's just about as close as Total War ever got to the actual sound of massed archery.
It actually blows my mind that STW had firearms worked to such a degree. When I play Shogun 2 and ranked fire stalls for a million years, I just think that it must be super hard to program properly instead of the dev/engine going backwards 10 years. This video really opened my eyes.
In Mount and Blade 2 in Early access made with a much smaller budget - arrows are felt, their weight, sounds, trajectory and ballistics are calculated, and so on In the last Total wars - arrows and bolts made from nothing
Creative Assembly: "Troy is gonna signal a return to the more traditional Total War, we did that really well before, so we want to build on it!" Also Creative Assembly: *Refuses to re-implement anything that made the Rome I, II, Shogun, or Medieval games amazing, reduces unit variety, continues to ruin ranged combat.* They are a joke. The laughing stock of Grand Strategy, this is not Total War, this is a Total Disaster. It saddens me that I went from happily playing LAN games with my brother and father on Rome I all day when I was younger, to barely being able to last 50 turns without getting bored of using the same, boring tactics, and watching the same, boring, poorly balanced ranged meta units with awful sound effects and visuals. When Age of Empires 4, Manor Lords, or literally any other anticipated strategy game releases, I'll ditch this waking nightmare of a franchise until they realise that there's only so long you can appeal to the competitive multiplayer scene before you lose all those who loved the franchise for what it was supposed to be.
Yeha so much tactics on the old games(irony) and in the old games the variety was a joke in games like medieval just a lot of units that worked the same, and also some factions had almost not units, like have you tired moors on medieval 2? They had nothing so you had to make stacks of assasin infantry, but well old games where "realistic" and "balanced" like berserks on rome 1, in the old games there wherent that much different tactics and most factions feeled the same
@@darknachos3435 That is not the point, clearly advances in technology should have made future total war games expand and incorporate what was acceptable and outstanding in the past. Your tirade on unit variety lacks point and sense when comparing the game engines limit. Medieval 2 could only handle 200 different units on maximum. Culture also affects the spread of common spear militia across Europe. You have the gall to talk of unit variety when I can point to Troy and Kingdoms and say "Oh look, copy paste units for every faction with small variety to account for different culture groups." Reskinned javelin boys, giant cow herd wearing human monster units, centaur horse people on special area of recruitment zones sirrah.
@@honestlordcommissarbrighte7921 three kingdoms has a problem at is that is in china all units are mostly of the same culture thats true, and medieval could only handle 200 units? You mean in battle? Well yeha but what i tried to say it not just a lot of units but beign diferent and useful the old games had a problem with thay like easter spearman in rome or for example the mors in medieval 2 have almost no units some things have improved and others have become worse but i think people have too much nostalgia and dont see all the problems in the old games and dont see any improvment in the saga Ps:sorry my bad english blah blah
@@honestlordcommissarbrighte7921 also in variety the true problem with the old games is if you see games like medieval 2 even with a lot of cultures and a big maps most factions played the same and theyre campaings where equal thats why when they say old games where more "tactical" i fins it hilarious not to mention rome or empire of course
Long story short: HP system, sound design and animation speed. Animation speed and sound went silly in Shogun 2 and never recovered. The arrows feel slow and overall "meh". It doesn't feel like a slowass arrow could do any damage. And the HP system makes projectiles feel week, when you fire off 1-2 volleys into the enemy without any significant effect, and then like 30 people instantly drop. While the second one is the problem with balance, the first one is a problem in general, and should've been fixed a long ass time ago. I mean the guns feel great, so why can't bows?
Thanks to you for this video, and thanks to Konstantin "Total War CAT" for russian subtitles. If sling-shooting is really your hobby, then I recommend comparing the power of a bullet-projectile with a 4-gauge gun - speaking like a practicing gunsmith.
I'm going to admit two things: 1. My first Total War game was Rome 2. It was the first TW game I watched, it was the first one I bought and played at about 20-30 frames on an old potato laptop I owned. It's still my most played TW game on steam because I didn't have the salty taste of the horrendous launch on my tongue, having bought it a good year or two after its release, and I just loved the aesthetic of the ancient classical era of Rome and Greece. I own Attila, and Warhammer 1 and 2. Britannia was where I stopped. Even though I came in at the Rome 2 stage, past the Total War glory days as it was, I could already see how the games were getting more and more arcadey, how glorious melee combat even in the height of its historical or setting prevalence was continuing to take a further and further seat back to the weaker and cowardice-filled ranged "combat". I played Britannia for appoximately 93 minutes before requesting a refund on steam. Three Kingdoms my interest peaked at watching a few videos and thinking "that dueling is kinda cool" and that was it. Troy, after a singular gameplay showing followed by me learning it was going to be an Epic exclusive, I completely lost any interest in. I've only been following the Total War series since about 5 years ago and am already sad at how much the series seems to be changing for the worse, so I can only imagine how painful it must be for people who've been here since the beginning 20 bloody years ago to see what its become now. 2. When I first started seeing some of these videos in my recommended, my first thoughts were "heh some old codger is suffering from some 'back in my day' syndrome it seems." I set it to watch later and went about my business. Then a few days later another video popped in my recommended and I figured "oh what the hell might as well I guess." In the beginning, my thoughts didn't change. Totally just some back in my day syndrome as he has on those rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. Then you started getting into specifics, directly cross-comparing the games from 10 to 20 years ago to modern titles. The audio, animations, impact, the general feeling of the battles. Things I'd've never noticed before suddenly pointed out crystal clear. And I found myself slowly starting to realize just what you meant. Those times when I'd have to focus fire 4 units of Cretan Archers on a single unit of *shirtless men with bows and no shields* just to kill them with any sort of speed in Rome 2. The weak plinking and just lack of any meat behind the sounds of crossbows opening fire in Attila. Literally the entirety of ranged combat in the Warhammer games. I didn't experience the golden age of total war games and I can already tell they definitely seem more satisfying in these aspects at the least. So, yeah. I definitely see your point
@@Volound No problem. My old bowls coach once told me that the cream always rises to the top, and the same applies to you with the recent nonsense you've put up with. Best wishes as always, and keep making these critical masterpieces as they are thought provoking and demonstrate how empty these newer games are.
I knew the series was in trouble way back in Shogun 2. The fact that the city in castle sieges were nothing compared to Medieval 2 really bothered me and then the downward Trend just continued. The combat was great, it was like they forgot to do cities and castles or 2 different teams jad workes on the game.
That's cause in shogun 2 you're never besieging the city, you're besieging the castle. Now it is true that the city should be somewhere around, especially for the major towns, but other than that it's just because it's a different culture, the castle was pretty much its own entity, separate from the city (albeit generally inside said city) with its own walls
Rome: Total War is now my favorite game cause you introduced me to it, Volound. Who would’ve thought that my favorite game would be released the same year I was born. Thanks for making these great videos man.
Man, You realy made this negative open my eyes, dude. I have allways felt like the newer games are inferiour in some way and you allways make so good points. I have been playing Medival 2 with the DaQ for so long and just Lotr in Total War is so awesome, but I fear a mod for Warhammer would not feel cool. Just look cool. I did'nt trie a new TW game between Rome2 and Until a friend bought me Warhammer one and two so I could play with him. But I loose interset in it fast, and just go back to Medival 2. But I just see it so clear after watching this and other debunkings you've done. I did'nt understand it.... but my brain did..
My mind was actually blown when I saw Shogun 1 firearms. My most played game is Shogun 2 and my first is Napoleon, and I never once thought that there could be a Total War game that actually got it totally right.
It feels good to see someone explain why old Total War was good in current times, rather than letting the narrative continue that they were JUST clunky old videogames that people only like because of nostalgia and mods.
RTW with remastered graphics, improved way finding , and added naval battles would no doubt be one of the ( If not the ) best Total war games ever made
I paused 8 minutes into the video to comment. I was ready to give sub as soon you comparatively mentioned the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the sound between versions. I've played with making music and immediately thought "I can mod this". Then I gave a nod in solidarity to how you feel about having a post removed from a Subreddit, because... (eye-roll) moderators. I feel your frustration. THEN you went on about the physics of a sling... BAM, instant comment and subsequent sub. Why do developers lean towards and bend a knee to "arcade sound designs" when we live in a world full of incredible freedom of design choices when it comes to sound? We have Dolby Atmos, Headphone X and yes, even Windows sonic, with a plethora of format choices ranging from AAC, OOG for analog and aptX and other LDAC codecs for those that prefer Bluetooth headphones. The lack of audio authenticity in this day and age, boggles the mind and signal to me, cheap and lazy sound design. I just don't understand why such an essential human sensory aspect, such as sound, is so often overlooked and sacrificed these days.
So I practice archery as a hobby using ottoman and chinese style bows. The intro to this video talking about shogun 1 was quite motivating for me. I have to agree that the shogun 1 clip looks the most realistic. Almost as if whoever was coming up with the design parameters did some interviewing of archers and visited some outdoor ranges. The vibe of that line of archers on the hill just feels right man. In that Rome video at about the 2 and a half minute mark the only thing missing, for the sake of immersion, are arrows sometimes shattering as the armor deflects them. I bet being in a formation like that under arrow fire was LOUD. Current game engine tech could handle that without breaking a sweat. I think the sound of the bows is exaggerated, which is ok for a video game. The 3K clip that follows feels like the least amount of acceptable effort was given to complete that programing and design task. The sound didn't bother me as much as it did you, but everything else is pitiful. At least their grip looks somewhat correct. I almost expected them to use a western style grip out of laziness.
I only play Medieval 2 total war, Warhammer mod. My gunline is central to the army; I just add 1 or 2 archer units to suppress enemy ranged. The trick is also to checkerboard your army, like the Roman Legion maniples, this allows guns to fire longer and into the flanks of which catch onto the "hedgehog" defense of your infantry. Faith, steel, and gunpowder :)
What i miss most is that in medieval total war 2 cav that charged with lances, switched to swords after the lances were expended. Such a high tech feature was apparently to hard to implement in newer games were heavy cav poke at each other with lances in melee. I know it's a minor feature, but still.
I remember and still know how heavy arrows in Medieval 2 feel; you can just hear the THUMP of arrows smacking into their opponents, the metal cling hitting skin as soldiers scream and fall as they die. It doesn't feel like that anymore. Genoese crossbows turning around with their shields on their backs, peeking over their shoulder to make sure theres no arrows raining on them before they turn and fire. Hearing all crossbows and bows go AT ONCE and you hear the plucking of the arrows from their strings, the loud flying sounds of said projectiles.. that is attention to detail, and pure love for your game. Being able to volley instead of them just firing randomly.. such a good feeling.
I started Total War with Rome 1, and those were my favorite gaming moments of my whole life. Same with Medieval 2. Ever since Shogun 2, I've been looking at each subsequent Total War game like Don Corleone in the Godfather: "see how they've massacred my boy."
the strange thing is, is that they have proven that they can improve from game to game. And in this case im talking about Empire to Napoleon. I remember the sound effects in Empire being quite dismal and very "pop pop bang bang". But in Napoleon, the sound affects were so much more heavy, and you could hear cannon shot flying through the air and bouncing off the ground. Also there was so much musket smoke in Napoleon, which A) was realistic, and B) looked cool. It can be done. Also Crossbows in Attila were done pretty well iirc.
Just stumbled across your channel and I'm really surprised how you summarised everything I felt wrong in the last games of the series. The future is dark, really...
In the older total war games muskets felt much deadlier too like in Empire a regiment of line infantry with the fire by rank research just destroyed the opponent and you could just see the aftermath of a single volley over the enemy unit now the front line being filled with bunch of corpses in warhammer muskets felt really weird like it felt like somehow they weren’t doing any damage
Wasn't aware of the Volound Purge they had at the TW subreddit, which made your content even more enjoyable. I would love to add to the list of topics for you to discuss, but since I havent really played any Total War games since Shogun 2 and maybe a little WH2 I can't really give any ideas, I will happily upvote your videos though. Keep on doing them!
Holy crap you nailed all the little details that cause me to keep going back to medieval and attila and Rome 2 with mods of course. Here's another one for you: Thrones of Britannia nailed the combat environment audio. Here's what I mean. When you zoom out in a battle and see your marching forward towards the enemy walls, you can hear them chanting and barking orders. No other total war has this visceral audio to make you feel like you're really stuck in an epic siege.
I think a big part of it all is also to dumb it down for a dumber player base. Taking away a variable like elevation, and reloading mechanics means you can just park your unit anywhere and not get "punished" for making mistakes. Same with the calculation system for difficulty. It is really simplistic all of it. Just to get people to play. Not giving a challenge at all. And in the end, it makes lots of aspects ugly, but as long as the tunic is fancy enough and players keep "winning" the money keeps rolling in. If the testudo looks cool, units go into shield wall, and it looks epic. Who cares if the gameplay is good.
Just this last Friday I got Total War Medieval 2 which is my first total war game and one of the first things I noticed was during my first siege defense my peasant archers and castle towers all shooting down on the enemy was unbelievably satisfying. The sound and spectical of them all wizing through the air at the same unit was epic so its a big couincedence that I happen to see this video that just came out. Also the dishonored pistol point was spot on. I love that you always bring up dishonored because its one of my favorite games of all time and no one, especially on youtube, ever talks about it. I remember I used to watch your videos on dishonored back in the day and you as well as stealthgamerbr inspired me to attempt cool stunts. Love your content, subbed!
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If you keep making videos like this, you will teach people how to reason! Worse, you are now talking about hobbies and enriching life by direct experience, just letting all the secrets out - think of what will happen if you inspire someone to follow their curiosity and do something. What next? They discover joy? Personal agency? Learn how to advocate for themselves? Not to mention the ultimate - to develop into a whole person? Then what will game studio stakeholders do when they run out of rubes to market their shovelware to? Mark my words, nothing good will come of this.
@Tattle Boad its ironic
where did you get that bag of redpills?
This comment is better than anything ive read in the TW subreddit since i joined 2 years ago 😂😂
This made me wince
@Tattle Boad Ok. It's still a wince worthy comment though, it's on a video about projectile SFX and projectile trails.
wow in Medieval 2 crossbowman turn around while reloading so their shielded backs protect them? yeah can't expect so much hightech in modern games
It's not high tech stuff, it's more devs getting lazier
@@neilcampbell7375 no shit sherlock, that was meant to be ironic
2 Things:
Thats the default animation for crossbowmen in Med 2, where they turn around to reload, crossbows without shield also do it.
Only Pavise Crossbowmen and Genoese "Jesus Christ please nerf this shit" Crossbowmen have the shield.
@@soldiersPL Uhhh... no. Regular crossbowmen lean down and reload that way
@@totalwar1793 yeah he said that's the default animation. Did you not read the fucking comment?
The musket Units in Warhammer are probably what disappointed me the most about the game. I mean the three "Holy" Words of the Empire are "Faith, Steal and Gunpowder" its what let the empire survive the onslaught of evil forces and the Musket units in the game don't even have real firearm drills, they don't even reload.
The firearm drills in TW games have never been all that well done.
@@kubaGR8 That may be right but in Empire, Napoleon and Shogun you could atleast watch your units reload and see details like the Ramrod being used, additionally, bullets weren't just reskinned Crossbow Bolts.
@@Jorakful I think Empire and Napoleon had proper reload animations. Shogun 2 units fired, and then just used the ramrod for like 30 seconds before shooting again lol.
There is first hand sources via the florentine codex from the Aztecs during the conquest of the americas that they thought the europeans literally possessed the ability of thunder when hearing shots from muskets, and that it would shake across the mountain tops and would come to even pierce your eardrums.
CA: "So basically wet fart noises"
I love reading those old documents, especially having fired the weapons they talk about. It really is amazing. Just standing off to the side, you can feel the booming rumble of musketry. You can see the fire erupting from the muzzle. Even to modern soldiers, a solid musket volley is impressive. And these morons turned it into an arcade sound.
Having fired a muzzle loading musket before, I can say the Aztecs are not far off with that description lol
Imagine the smoke and thunder of huge line infantries in open field.
Just the sound alone would be enough to send ranks of men running.
And it's not like the Aztecs were perfect angels who knew nothing of war. They were a brutal, savage and warlike civilisation. If indeed that is what you can truly call it.
Ah yes the "profitability = quality" argument from reddit. Because everyone knows Avatar is the greatest film ever made.
mcdonalds is the finest gourmet dining. everyone knows that.
Or all Disney live action remakes are better than the original cause box office!
Yup. I point that out all the time. The most profitable movie ever made. Literally everyone went to see it. But hardly anyone actually remembers it and anyone who does just says: "Yeah, it was alright."
Fortnite is the best game ever created by mankind.
The Last Jedi is the best-🤮-Star Wars film. 🤢
"Don't care looks cool" isn't even a valid argument because it doesn't look cool lmao. Watching your musketeers reload their guns, fire, then kneel to let the rank behind them fire looks cool. Watching your crossbowmen reload their crossbows with a winch looks cool. A mass of projectiles ripping through a lightly armored unit and dropping half of the men looks cool.
Wishy-washy weapons with no reload animations and a lack of impact upon hitting the enemy looks lame and boring.
That's why I dont play troy
to be honest , its not even a matter of "it looks cool" ...its more a matter of demand..and there is more demand for a good total war game ,than ever before...but the expectation has never met the demand..but the addition of more mainstream gamers has now madeup the numbers , making these games lose their tactical edge to make for quickerfights and a more better looking game to perhaps encourage those gamers :( ..but ahh do i not miss the great sound effects/music of rome,mtw1 & mtw2 which still echo in my memory with those iconic speeches [winks] :)
Do...modern Total Wars seriously not have those things? Genuine question because the oldest one I've played is Shogun 2.
@@RJALEXANDER777 I have played all the Total War games from Shogun 1 to Rome 2 (except for Shogun 2 because for some reason it doesn't like my CPU, I need to upgrade my PC first... and I tried Warhammer but it has a crappy performance on my rig, so I'll have to upgrade for anything newer than Rome 2 too), there are a lot of things the series lost. Most importantly the modding capabilities. Medieval 1, Rome 1 and Medieval 2 have tons of total conversion mods that completely change the game and place it in a new location. From Empire onward, editing the campaign map is impossible so we don't get as extensive mods anymore.
Warhammer scrapped a lot of the detailed reloading animations for firearms, and different firing drills. Shogun 1, Medieval 1 and Medieval 2 had gunpowder units perform countermarches. In Empire and Napoleon, you could unlock different firing drills (fire by rank, platoon fire) through research. Shields were a lot more important, in the new games they serve as additional frontal armor, in the old games shields could completely block missile damage (in the new ones, units take a small amount of damage even if the missile hits their shield). Medieval 2 is the most feature-rich game of the series, but there are some things in the original two TW games that got lost and were never brought back, like every unit having its own commander who gains experience just like your generals.
@@RJALEXANDER777 Yes, just take a look at Warhammer 1/2, Empire which is supposed to be the flagship faction of the Warhammer universe. The Space Marines of their respective time period, and what are the basic units of the pike n shot (sort of in the name, eh?) era that the Empire is modeled on? the Halberdiers (pike unit) and handgunners (musketeers/arquebusiers). So what happens after handgunners fire? They simply stand there, doing nothing. There is zero feedback to the player to let them know whether his handgunners are ready for another volley. A "feature" or basic function we took for granted just 5-6 years back, is entirely missing. Imagine if we removed walking animations? attack animations? Bow drawing animations?
And their argument is like, "well... i'm glad they spent their time on better things like making all those different factions" as if those are mutually exclusive
This is the truest channel wrt the downfall of total war, speaking as someone who started with M1, you're speaking every complaint I've ever had, and have been downvoted onto oblivion for expressing
you got the last laugh and it was my pleasure.
Same my thoughts and opinion on total war were all expressed well by volound. Currently playin mt2w lotr
See the problem is that tw has been hijacked by casual newcomers and warhammer fans. So they cant tell what made total war good in the first place
@@habibishapur what made total war good in the first place
?
@@idontgetit2195 the immersion, and audio plays a big role. They tried to do their best to put you in the action. Now that's not the case, even though it's many years later and it's 2020. Hell, the siege battle AI still sucks. Warhammer barely even cares about it to even give you a full siege battle it's so bad. Just depth is lacking the more modern a total war gets. Feels hollow. Just models Or even the sandbox experience
Immersion was a privilege of the past...
Sad but true :(
Where were you when Immersion was kill?
Person B: Immersion is dead.
Me: No... :(
Reason, logic and sanity were privileges of the past.
We are on an irrevocable decline now.
Seeing how the artillery looks and sounds right in Three Kingdoms makes the infantry sound design seem even worse. It shows they understand how to make good sounds, but they just don't.
Animations are important too. I thought I wasn't getting them on the Warhammer handgunners because I had low settings on my computer and it's a small thing, but it made them feel less impactful, on top of how hp bars make units feel less like men dying and more like bullet sponges.
I also hate how stats are pushed to the forefront of everything, back in medieval 2 i could easily understand that a unit of warhammers could easily beat an armored unit of soldiers compared to generic armored swords men, now its like im playing a f2p moba.
@@princesstinklepanties2720 Isnt two handed armor piercing infantry lose to much cheaper armored swordsman in Medival 2 because of two handed bug. As an example both janissary heavy infantry (840 cost) and diamounted gothic knights (810 cost) lose to dismounted feudal knights (570) while they were supposed to excell at killing such unit.
@@Tegmete i had the venetian heavy infantry in mind while writing
Harry McCusker to be fair about the animations, the sheer number of different animations the team has to do for a game with such radically different unit types makes small touches more difficult. It does seem pretty lazy though.
@@samurguy9906 I think they're also making an effort to reduce load on RAM by having less of them. That's as my theory with the gunners in Warhammer. Just shooting is quite short, but reloading would be a long animation and especially on a detailed skeleton, it could be quite a large file.
Shogun 2: The rolling cracks of matchlock fire thundering across the battlefield, the volume of fire of fire generating so much smoke it covers the battlefield in a haze that hides movement and fills the air with a bitter, acrid taste. The units practically invisible from any real distance, just fuzzy blurred figures obscured, save for when the rank fires a volley, and for a moment they become visible, cast in a red glow from the fire put out by their deadly and terrible black powder weapons, striking down their enemy with a weapon that cares not if its target is a peasant with a spear they can barely handle or a samurai with decades of training and experience. The bloody glory of melee combat made meaningless by the pitiless brutality of modern warfare.
Warhammer : Barely audible pops made by firearms that must be using smokeless powder for how little smoke they put out
Look how they massacred my boy
You haven't seen Empire total war then lol. Thankfully there are mods for that but in vanilla muskets sound like slings lol
@@arczi1309 ETW was in 2009 and shogun 2 was in 2011
They even reused some sounds and smoke of the models from ETW
@@arczi1309 well, Napoleon, Empire’s successor, did a pretty job making firearms... eheh... flaring
thats poetic...
Fun fact, Warhammer Fantasy firearms actually *do* use smokeless powder, because it's not blackpowder or gunpowder in our sense of the word, but rather semi-magical alchemical mixtures.
for all those who would say its only a small thing that doesnt matter: if they cant get the small things right, they cant get big things right.
theres actually alot of small things that annoy me that have never been changed like the deployment zones being the same for both attacker and defender when logically defenders should spawn in the middle of the map with attackers on the edge like in sieges.
Reinforcements spawning too close and therefore sometimes literally ontop of the enemy without being able to get into formation and just instant killed by the enemy.
the stupid "army" mechanic from rome2 that stops you detaching individual units and forcing you to have all units under a general as well as not letting you have multiple generals in a stack.
you cant even do a simple move like taking your cavalry right before a battle and moving them on their own behind the enemy army then attacking with the main stack so that your cav spawns behind the enemy at the start of a battle.
theres no sense of fighting and manuevering on the campaign map at all anymore. just making giant doomstacks and throwing them at eachother then tedious siegespam afterwards.
Right. That's what's so bad about Ca, not just that they have crap dlc policies, they do as well, but its the fact that the team at CA is both lazy and doesn't care anymore, half the issues in the video are explained with laziness the other half are because no one at CA cared enough to include that detail, such as the sounds, because the sounds they have likely took the same amount of time that getting accurate sounds would have done, but they don't care so they just went with whatever sort of maybe fit. I can't understand how people defend CA at this point (other than the CA shills, who they bribe, of course)
I agree with you sirs. I think I may understand why there are some who are uncaring to these aspects. There are many reasons, but I think its likely largely due to fans who come into TW post Rome 2. Like myself. If Warhammer was your first TW like me, you may have never played anything like it before and are blown away by what is available in game. That being said you would also be largely unaware of these seemingly nebulous issues. The lack of polish old fans expect, is irrelevant to the new fans who love the games without it. Therefore to them it is a moot point. I may have started with warhammer, but I love historical settings and realism and I have since started playing older TW titles and now understand where the discontent comes from. It is really disappointing that the quality seems to be in decline in various ways. Modern TW games only appear to be TW games at a very quick first glance, but the more you dig through them the more you realize how much depth and quality they are lacking. Hoping they turn things around, and stop ignoring criticism.
I think the people defending the small things need to take a step back so they can see that small problems are existant throughout the whole series (worse in recent games) and the small issues when added together are gigantic issues
Every time I play Rome 2 it just devolves into me getting as many 20 stack armies as I can to back each other up and using the autoresolve button because 40 stacks is too fucking many and I'm not about to let the computer have control of just some of my men and mess everything up on the battlefield for me. But I hate that it always becomes, "who has the bigger army? They win" instead of, you know, using fucking tactics
I really hate that you can't split your army up and attack from different angles. Hate how they have forced garrisons. Forcing all army's to have generals is stupid
The thing that really gets me is the fact that the games have less and less been focusing on volleys. Troops in a unit seem to just fire at will randomly at times, which gives the impression of it just being a giant disorganized skirmish (which most of the battles actually ARE now.) Empire, for all of its flaws, understood that the change from fire at will to volley fire was something that gave a real power and punch to ranged combat, which is why that upgrade was so important and impactful.
I think noobs got angry at archers just standing there. I’ve literally heard a guy say that he doesn’t know if his archers listened to his orders or if the game is glitched. So now they stagger shots so your archers are firing 24/7.
Empire is a total dogshit just played it yesterday. Forgot how bad it was had to uninstall it and go back to Warhammer 2.
@@idontgetit2195 It has it's flaws. Like most of it is flaws, but in that particular regard it outdoes warhammer massively.
@@MadisonRamanamabangbang in what regard?
@@idontgetit2195 Ranged Ranked and volley fire vs Fire at will. He is saying that Having your troops fire all at once feels awesome, especially vs fire at will.
I fell like the "battlefield feeling" was really excellent in Napoleon TW. The smoke and explosions are really well done. It also features the big wabbly smoke clouds and big craters from cannonballs.
I’m so early I’m watching samurai archers raining arrows down on yari samurai at the base of a hill
Reddit being cringy, censorious, and toxic?
Perish the thought.
@James Stockdale reddit is one of the worst thing that happened to the Internet
@Ved Singh its not a meme app, reddit kills memes you idiot. It's a circlejerk app for spergs and room temp IQ troglodytes
@Zoomer Waffen look how he deleted his comments lol
@Zoomer Waffen 🤣🤣
Pathetic is the word for the place, I think.
Wow, I never really used Slings that much in Rome because I thought they were kind of lame, and I am a sound design freak. You've opened my eyes to a new world dude, hell, those real people shooting Slings actually look badass! Thanks!
@Joe Becker did his head pop like a watermelon?
Yeah well-trained slingers were scary. You can kill someone just by throwing a stone at a person's head. Make the stone out of lead and up the velocity a few times over and you're going to cause internal bleeding and shattered bones wherever you hit.
I always loved slingers in that series! It was amazing how punishing they could be, even to an armored opponent.
I love how he talks about firearms without bringing up Napoleon
I liked Napoleon alot when it first came out.
Then we got Shogun 2
I’ve played them both, but I still enjoy napoleons firearms over Shogun 2’s. But the melee was much nice in Shogun
As well as Empire i personally think both Napoleon and Empire Total War did a good job on the guns. And when listening to this video the gun sounds from medieval did sound more like canon fire to me than actual musket sounds yet i have to say that i do prefer canon fire over dull nurf gun fire from warhammer.
Lars Dijkmans I mean, to be fair, Empire’s Guns were a lot less effective that they aught to have been, but it was still a very fun experience. Except for the crashes. Duck those.
"It doesn't make sense to see games getting things wrong, that they already had right. It's one step forward and two steps back." - The story of TW.
I find it rather sad how arrows and bolts in Rome total war and Medieval 2 could be easily seen as they were so beautifullly rendered and presented that they could literally block out the sky if packed densely enough but nowadays, we need these ugly projectile trails to even see them
Also, 39:02; the medieval 2 crossbows ( or any ranged weapons in that game) were infinitely better than guns in warhammer
As a historical-style archer I wish they put more details on the ranged weapons. The one thing I can't stand is the archers keep their bows draw at full draw for a long period of time. In reality few can keep a warbow draw for that long and it makes no sense. Also I wished you could change arrow angle, for example high arc or low arc. And javelins....you can't hold 15 javelins and throw it 100 yards, Troy....please stop
they can be changed CA just doesnt do it. Mods can fix these things easily.
If they really gave a shit, they'd make Javelin skirmishes pick up enemy javelins and throw them back, like how real skirmishers from that era did it, they'd trade javs till one side decided to stop throwing.
hell in ME2 archers who had direct LoS and close enough, they would just direct fire. drag out the sqaud into 2 rows nice n wide.
What do you think about the archers firing their arrows bombardment-style?
Say, when an enemy unit is placed behind a wall, and the whole archer regiment just fires straight up, at an enemy they can't even see.
Only 10 minutes into the video, so not sure if you covered it, but one thing you missed was how bogged down infantry under missile fire becomes,in MTW2 a unit of heavy knights will be unable to move and will flinch when under heavy fire, making shitty units like peasant archers able to pin down a unit in place. In newer game the missile fire doesnt seem to affect units at all, and they will move at their usual space
Nah back in the old total war games armour actually worked and mattered those knights where pin downed but they kept slowly coming still, now in the new games either range units are so OP they ripe though armour like it was tissue paper or they are so weak those can't kill even kill the weakest units.
HistoryFan476ad aye that’s ive meant, they’re not being killed but slowed down
@@PoLaNd4life96 in fact it makes those infantry even more scary i think, since your firing on them and while slowed down their still coming. like a unstoppable force.
In new total war now they either die or they don't no more suspense and they don't slow down.
and med 2 is broken asf. Killing a whole army with 2 units of cav can't be balanced.
And remember how bs horse cavs was? I won't welcome any change that will bring back those bs units.
@@kaleidoscope3234 it's not like modern Total War titles are anymore balanced. Magic in Warhammer is completely broken. So are certain single entity units.
Much needed video. I grew up playing Rome 1, and I haven't bought a single title since Attila. It's so insane how games from the PREVIOUS CENTURY are still topping the triple A titles released by the same franchise. It's actually like they stopped caring, and until they do I'm not spending another cent. I'll stick to Medieval 2, thank you very much.
I don't know man. I really dislike that being critical of a game series gets you banned. Good criticism helps keep games good, just constantly bowing your head or making excuses for a games failings means nothing will change. There should have been a full scale revolt when Rome 2 came out. I remember another TH-cam total war content maker, constantly excusing the games failures, glitches, and down right unacceptable lack of polish while posting battles and campaigns, and thinking "Wow, if you actually stopped making excuses maybe this game won't sell well and they can try again with some learned experience."
An argument I see out there is "well if the game doesn't sell well they won't make another." To that I say that we should be asking for better games, not for good game series to get worse and worse until they limp along and fade out.
Keep up the videos man, I really like your thoughts on this stuff and I can tell you love the series and know what you are talking about.
but negativity bad. you should just be happy you get to consume product.
@@Y0UT0PIA lol
It's just good business
Lord Cutler Beckett
I was banned from the Warhammer forum on Steam, for questioning a 3-day suspension which I got for making a very gentle joke at CA_Joey. It was done by CA_Grace and then guess what? She proceeded to delete: Every. Single. Post I had made on that forum. The only sign I was ever even there was where people quote-reply to me. I think this was done to hide the fact that I had been a constructive poster and had not reciprocated the heaps of personal abuse Joey and Grace allowed to exist there, but just consistently advanced my point that CA had forgotten how to make a Total War.
It is a sad day when modders for the old total war titles are better game makers than the actual studio, but yet again by now most of the old staff who created them old great games have left CA i think (or hope at least otherwise it means they just lazy and are making below standard games on purpose).
my fondest memories from Medieval 2 was heroically defending a steep hill top with a battered down english army against french while being outnumbered 1:10 and winning through sheer firepower of english longbows and superior positioning
Agincourt 2: steep boogaloo.
Right, that kind of thing cant happen in the modern TW games. They are so basic.
Danish axemen defending a bridge crossing from 2-3 stacks of French knights while manogels felled hundreds at a time with firery death balls right over their heads was mine. Each shot was a nailbiter. Any mishap could spell a rout and a wide open lane into my more fragile occupied German interior.
As much as I like Attila as the last of the old school TW titles, even that saw the death of dynamic differences in terrain, towering mountain defences and rivers and gorges with only ONE crossing.
@@xxRellekxx every game has been lack luster in some way since MTW.
@@GeminibBorn Lol yeah. I'd re-download the Stainless Steel mods in a heartbeat if I could get the damn thing to stay stable on a modern machine.
Thanks for the shoutout.
I think a lot of the streamlining has to do with the game's AI. It's no secret that Total War has never had very good AI, and it often struggles to contend with more advanced mechanics. Fatigue, proper placement of units, the formation and placement of their army, so on; all of these the AI struggles to contend with at times. So they heavily streamlined these to make it more capable of challenging the player.
Warhammer is the most egregious example of this, and I say that as someone who has played hundreds of hours of it in enjoyment. Fatigue generally doesn't really matter compared to unit stats, experience is less important. Terrain provides a much more minimal advantage and generally speaking the AI can get by or at least present a threat by just directly charging the player heedless of any other circumstance. This is also why handgunners are so similar to bows and why low-arc fire is a thing- the AI is able to more easily handle these units when they fire consistently in almost any circumstance.
One might look at Ultimate General: Civil War as the counter-TW here. The enemy units contend with as much depth as the player's experience is meant to be, and so the AI must step up to the task of commanding. UG:CW's AI is plenty capable of forming battle lines, flanking, scouting, falling back to defensible positions, breaking the player's center or rolling up his flanks, so on. It still does best when it outnumbers you, but the difference between it and TW's AI is that it generally wins by the fruit of its labor rather than the game being designed to facilitate it having to do as little as possible to threaten you.
"As someone who slings for a hobby" No matter what comes next, I'm listening!
It seems to me that the game they'd rather be making is Total War: Arena rather than Shogun 1 or Medieval 2, to pull in the MOBA/RTS crowd. Maybe they're thinking they can appeal to both audiences at once, or maybe the second crowd is more lucrative.
I'm new to total war but legit got hooked on shogun 2 for a week straight and surprised myself cause I legit had no idea I liked these types if games.Played 3 kingdoms and lost interest in 2 days.I don't know why but it didn't have that impact.
@@psychofreak7382 try medieval 2. It has some problems (actually a lof of problem) regarding unit's behaviour and pathing, but everything else is head above all other total wars.
@Xadion The RTS Genre had been stagnant for nearly two decades prior to its 'Mobization' and likely would have continued to shrivel away further had something not happened to breath some life back into it. It just turns out what that that breath of life was didn't sit well with old-school RTS fans.
The problem in the latest total war sagas started with the introduction of HP left bar instead of the number of men left in the batalion
I know it was three month ago but still
It is kinda necessary for Warhammer, but the fact that it doesnt stay just in Warhammer is a shamefull display
Greetings from Russia =) I am impressed with your analysis of these problems with shooting units in the game.
Holy shit man, of course i remembered the dishonored 2 pistol being bad but not that it was *that* bad. You weren't even joking there, between enemy footsteps it's actually really somewhat hard to hear it. Shit like that really seems like a small thing at first but string a few examples like that together and the experience can already be severely ruined and that's without even having talked about the core mechanical issues of the game then. You did a really nice job throughout the entire video in highlighting how much of a difference seemingly little things like that can make already. I also appreciated the statement from you that there isn't always the need to change things, especially when the motivation is really just changing things for the sake of changing, like without any legitimate reasoning. The Dishonored 2 Pistol would actually be a perfect example for that again.
yeah man it surprised even me. i dont think it was ever fixed. that was from this video of version 1.4 which was july 2017. about 8 months after launch and was still like that. it was deliberate and i have no idea why. we will never know. very unnerving. no rhyme or reason.
There was a game where a gun's sound had to be nerfed, because it made a whole faction overpowered.
I don't think people understand how important weapons sounds are.
@@Seth9809 if we critique fan boys yells "NITPICKING!!! GO TO HELL" 😂.
@@Seth9809 it was return to castle Wolfenstein multiplayer mode and the expansion. the sound wasn't nerfed. they devs weren't meddling idiots =p what happened was there was 2 guns mp40 and Thompson. the rumor was that the Thompson was better. and the devs were like how its exactly the same stats. then they realised it was the sound design and one of the wisdoms of this realization was imparted to the world to try and make better things of it. they didn't nerf it. it didn't make them overpowered. players thought It was more powerful =]
The passionate developers who made the first games are long gone. That´s the one and only reason why has all this happened. They saw that their managers and ceo´s wanted to make money instead of something they would be proud of. Many studios turned to shit after the key developers carrying their first games that made them popular left because of utter garbage management focused only on making money and nothing else. It´s pathetic that these people get to such positions that they have power over games development to the point they can run it to the ground over the years and the worst thing is, they dont care. They´ll just move on to another studio with another game that they can do the same thing, ruin it, because they are there only for the money and only that.
That's why people criticize capitalism so much today.
@@victuz People who criticize capitalism are self destructive morons who have no clue how horrifying life is under different conditions. They must believe that socialists and communists make excellent games or something.
You can make money with a product you can be proud of. That's not anti capitalism. The problem is the audience is mostly made out of sheeple who will mindlessly buy whatever looks pretty.
Why would the developers put any effort into a good quality, well balanced, historical game when the majority of the fanbase prefer that bullshit Warhammer? There's no incentive for it.
@Half life 3 "BuT sOcIaLiSm Is CoOl MaN. WhAt ArE YoU, a NaZi? VeNeZuElA iS nOt ReAl SoCiAlIsM. BeRnIe iS gOnNa MaKe Us LiKe DeNmArK." Except the Danish themselves told Bernie to shut up and stop smearing them because they aren't socialists, they just have very generous welfare programs.
I have the same problem with Fallout fans. Bethesda screws them over again and again, yet every time a new game comes out the fans can't give them their money fast enough. They pre-order the games, fork $200 for the collector's edition, even buy toys as if they were children. Then Bethesda inevitably screws them and they go "REEEEE Capitalism". It's like, for crying out loud, stop buying overpriced crap. If you reward them no matter how badly they do things, they will have no incentive to do better. That's not a problem with Capitalism, it's a problem with these fanboys.
@@Gabriel-ip6me I mean, when capitalism is what births sheeple who mindlessly consume trash, can’t you then blame capitalism?
@@simpbeforeusleep Capitalism doesn't birth sheeple that mindlessly consume trash. Or do you think that if you take away freedom of enterprise and choice somehow people are going to become discerning customers?
People are that way naturally, unfortunately, and it's made worse by a culture that doesn't teach people how to exercise their role as customers in a market economy.
CA forgot that slinger's proyectiles were mainly made of lead and had enough weight that the impact could blew your shield away from your hand and bend you armor, there's no way you could move against a volley of sling fire. There's no pinned down effect on troops anymore
Their was a reason the Romans invested in very large, interlocking thick shields and it was not to shade them from the sun, it was to stop the rain of lead flying at them.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD i mean... in fairness, EVERYONE used large oblong shields of various shapes, well, everyone who wasnt using the greek aspis style shields
and Romans weren't the ones in dense overlapping shield walls, they were often in fairly open order
you want those, ask the barbarians they faced, they had the dense overlapping shield walls
@@elgostine No i think the shield wall came later in the 200s ads i think late empire.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD it's a wall. of overlapping shields.
and we know according to ceaser that gauls marched in tight formations with shields that often got pinned togfether by pila due to the overlap
first rule, dont ever get hung up on formation terms for infantry,
hot take: a phalanx is not a special formation, it's a block of dudes, with shields and spears, that's it. EVERYONE marched in rouch blocks with lines of shields and spears because the spear was common as hell as a primary weapon
@@elgostine One infantry formation is undefeatable. The mass retreat!
Two points regarding the crossbows around the 14 minute mark: would they be doing less damage to the enemy as they are in trees? I think that trees are given an area on the ground under them within which missile units are automatically less effective, rather than the unit they are shooting at getting a defence bonus from the trees though I could be wrong. Secondly, I think they're trying to limit how effective crossbows are in the game since Attila where they were brutal (and bugged, where if you put them on a palisade they'd have no reload time and fire like machine guns - entertaining to watch and use, but not realistic at all). In Attila also, slingers (hurlers) were done quite well in that they'd outstrip same tier archer units for kills quite often but would need better micro to use them effectively. Attila arguably has some of the better battle mechanics in the current engine, but isn't perfect by any means.
I think the layer games give a flat bonus against damage from projectiles, because it's Les intensive on your computer than modelling projectiles potentially hitting trees as they fly. Not sure if that would make them worse when shooting from the woods.
Trees are a cover source, it wasnt introduced into total war until Empire I think. Units are harder to hit inside a forested area. But as for firing out of trees, they might be affected, but theyre not "less accurate". Ever since shogun 2, the accuracy of bow units is like a flat tax. If they have a certain accuracy, theyll always shoot at that accuracy. Only misdirection (a unit changing its course), or weather can cause a units accuracy to potentially be worse. There are special abilities and other modifiers that improve accuracy and in later total wars maybe decrease as well. But Trees are not supposed to reduce accuracy.
from what i remember, in shogun 2, units in tress eill sometimes shoot into tree trunk infortn of them but usually same damage to the enemy unit than without the trees, and better covered against enemy arrows than not
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 Trees block objects friend or foe. There are units/factions with forest related effects like Wood elves getting +50% accuracy in woods. People have being pressing CA to change it like the strider skill (ignore terrain penalties), whose models now pass through trees, as it seems really odd for the tree huggers to put arrows into trees.
Napoleon Total war: don't forget me senpai!!
cannons are great until they aren't. replace the word cannon with archer for every other game.
@@InTecknicolour what do you mean, cannons are awesome and so essential in Napoleon, not so much in Empire.
@@joevenespineli6389 they are strong to a point. they have to be well defended or their crews get rushed by infantry or flanked by cavalry. and because they are immobile, they can't run away and reposition as easily as archers can
@@InTecknicolour I mean you can't really compare them to archers, cannons are artillery a better comparison for them are the ballistas and onagers, archers then can be compared to the light infantry whose job is to harass the enemy line troops. My point is they have different purposes.
@Aleksa Petrovic I agree although I primarily use howitzers in Empire with canister(?) shot for the Europeans once Im able to, never really played as the Indians although its a pain to deal with their giant ass cannons. Also I disagree that anyone in Napoleon has a reduced firing rate due to their reload speed being sped up to the point that cannons can be placed alongside your own line infantry to decimate the approaching enemy infantry. (I'm a very defensive player.)
Its so sad that the empire, a faction who's army is characterised by pike and shot tactics, is put into a game where there are no pike walls, spear walls or gunlines. Its so dissapointing that whenever I want to play the empire I'll load up the medieval 2 warhammer mod to play them. As fancy as the animations are, CA dropped the ball on the blackpowder factions of warhammer, I loved pikewalls in medieval 2, so why can't empire do them? I love a good dwarf shieldwall, but such a thing doesn't exsist in the game.
Don't get me started on Artillary
All I'll say is that the only reason that people post about how much they love them is because of their effectivness in battle, not their feel, sitting back and listening to a battery of 12 cannons fire away was like sweet music in medieval 2, in warhammer, its to see how much that giants hp goes down by in a single shot
The blackpowder units’ animations are crap, but there’s a reason you can’t create pikewalls in warhammer. It has to do with the lore. Why would you create a wall of pikes that is very very slow? There are wizards who can shot meteors at you, people who can raise the dead behind you, monsters make your pikes feel like splinters. Dwarves shieldwalls don’t really happen in the lore that often, but units do have a shieldwall, it activates when the unit stops moving. Think all of the creators problems can’t apply to Warhammer mostly because it’s Warhammer. They wouldn’t be faithful to the lore if they did all the things this man wanted. Other games are free reign though.
Totally A Jake Pauler but I’n war hammer lore they do use pike walls there on the table top and actually a pike wall work very effectively against monsters the drake weld guard use them to fight off Minotaurs
Gabriel Perron there is literally an entire story where 200 pikemen get killed by a kroxigor because they were so bunched up.
@@goastlyarrowplays I'm not familiar with the lore but irl if 200 people got killed for being so bunched up you would blame the commander for not ordering them into a different formation, you wouldn't say the unit type itself was at fault unless it repeatedly happens. For example at the battle of Cannae Roman legions were absolutely destroyed because their enemies were more maneuverable than the Roman soldiers, but the Romans didn't stop using legions. They just also used other units to back them up
@@jakecarson2653 right but this isn't irl in Warhammer to bunch up so much like that your going to get fucked over by any monster (gorebull, chaos spawn, giants or a charging grimgore) irl tactics suggest you shouldn't run into cannon fire but guess what chaos do it as well as the empire in the lore so it's not particularly the devs fault for the tactics that "work" irl against humans not to work against humans in game
The detail they put in their older games was just amazing. Iirc in medieval 2, if you set your gunpowder to defensive they used rank shooting instead of countermarching or how pike units actually change their pike walls depending on whether they are in guard or not. Its little touches like these that made these games masterpieces. The newer ones just lack any of these little things that made medieval 2 immersive.
I missed the days when Total War units have actual weight to them.
Cav has always been my favorite unit to use and them wiping out a division of infantry with one good charge brings a very special type of satisfaction.
It always exciting to see them come crashing down into the hordes of enemy men. It's like two stones smashing into each other.
I never get that same satisfaction when using cav in shogun 2
Everytime I send them to charge the enemy from behind, it lacks any force or build up to the charge.
Men would be launched hundreds of feet by the charge but it feels so simulated and fake. Like if the men were dolls being thrown around.
It's like watching to two inflatable balls colliding.
At least it's not like Rome total war where a literally cavalry charge gives literally no feedback at all.
@@saber2802 what do you mean "no feed back"? Lol have you ever seen a cav charge in rome tw? It carries so much weight and impact
@@prs_81 I'm think rome 2
@@EresirThe1st but it's fantasy and it can't afford to have instant kill charges with the giant monsters or they would be more insanely op than they already are...
@@EresirThe1st they have counters, but if the charges of the single entities instant killed half of those counters, elite spears, would fall apart on contact. and it's some heavy nostolgia talking to critise total war units for feeling samey, litterally every unit in medieval 2 is near identical to every other one. you essentially have different teirs of "ranged" "infantry" "light infantry" "cav" "light cav" "seige" "gunpoweder" and that was the game. but nowadays 13 factions that all play entirely differently from one another is "every unit feeling fundamentally the same"? like I agree things could be better but gtfo of here with those rose tinted goggles looking at the past
Watching archers fire their arrows in modern Total War games feels like punching in a dream
I'm surprised more people don't understand that M2TW was the best one. Cavalry charges were thunderous and devastating, archers and crossbows sounded dangerous and did damage appropriately, infantry acted as your main battle line and could defend strategic points effectively. Everything just felt right on the battlefield. For several games in a row now it's been either have the strongest single character or just mass spam the broken unit.
I think the combat in Rome 1 is more smooth, cav charges are more consistent, and pikes actually work. other than that its golden.
@@lukaruter I do agree that long spears and pikes work way better and while the cavalry charges feel better in M2TW to me Rome's cavalry did react to your orders better and maneuver a little better.
french Lancers killing elephants with charge was realy cringe though
That's your opinion tho not a fact. I enjoy more warhammer because is so entertaining and that makes it, in my opinion, a brilliant game. And i dont care who has the best single entities or unit spam I just want to play and not complain
Another thing to add with crossbows and firearms in Warhammer. The Empire Crossbows are NOT considered armor piercing and they'd at most kill one or two heavily armored individuals in a unit. For the best ranged armor piercing you need gunpowder units
I like the new games but I'd never picked up on all of these sound & animation differences and it's totally true. Gunpowder looks & sounds so much crispier and creamier in Shogun 2 and Medieval 2 than in WH2.
and get this, *they* don't even sound as good as actual black powder weapons do irl, medieval 2 is the closest you'll get. You'd think with their extra resources CA would actually record black powder weapons shooting as oppossed to what ever they do, but instead it somehow got worse
@@wisereaper4747 recording an actual black powder weapon shooting would make for AWFUL sound design, it is FAR more complicated than just recording a sound and translating it lol. I agree they should sound better but like wut
@@oneringtorulethemagicarp7199 why would it? is it because its too loud or something? it should be as easy as recording the sound unless you can't capture the sound properly, I suppose. I've done sound design before and most sound designers think they're improving gun sounds by adding in needless shit, when compared to what they're emulating, from what i've seen, they sound so bad.
@@wisereaper4747 keep in mind, when you normally record something you do it in a place with no real reverb/shit that messes with sound. Can't practically do that with firearms
Keep in mind this is a different engine, different mechanics, different limitations. It's not just building off of old stuff and honestly, I'd rather more good content then minor details, honestly.
Felt this exact way for years. There's a reason I shifted to Ultimate Generals Civil War, even if it's not a time period I really care for, it's just that the base gameplay actually hits home and tries.
Everything CA has done for Total War has been basically like an ex who was once at the top of their life and was super promising, only to take up a bad weed habit and just never go anywhere or commit to anything beyond half measures.
Unfortunately civil war is in-itself a dumbed-down and arcadey version of the original Ultimate General Gettysburg- worse ai and a terrible control point system, both of which were done much, much better in the first game. You also have to micromanage your artillery ammunition, instead of them automatically using whatever is applicable to the range for the unit they're firing at.
I love Ultimate General Civil War
@@Olorin486 In that case, I'll give the original a try and compare. It's the nature of the gaming industry to unfortunately degrade a product, but I still retain hope for Darthmod's personal projects as he was absolutely right about the state of CA.
You should have a look at Grand Tactician as well. Don't buy it just yet - it's in early access and still needs a lot of work to be ready -, it does however have a similar style to the total war games and has IMO the potential to do it a lot better
The MOBAfication of Total War is the same tragedy that happened to Dawn of War.
Pagcringe
I wounld't quite call it MOBA but yeah the more fantasy games do downplay infantry into more line-holders than significant power pieces.
And it's the same publisher, what a coincidence
Do you even know what a MOBA is?!
@@thevigilant6884 no he dosent and 116 more dont know too
old total war: snap! crack! PING! BOOM!
modern total war: click. thwip. dink. pop.
Seems to me that the Rome 2 fiasco is the root cause of all this. It was promised to be the next big leap in the franchise with the biggest budget yet and ended up being a dissapointing mess. Since then they've gone to the complete opposite end of the risk spectrum releasing low effort rehashes. Ranged combat, like many other game systems, really hasn't seen any change since Rome 2. Fans keep buying historical titles and Warhammer is printing money, doing anything other than what they are doing right now would be to abandon the gold mine they discovered.
Really, I see no reason to keep interest in this series. CA is happy, fans are happy and the disgruntled fans are both disenfranchised and such a small minority that it's simply not worthwhile listening to them.
The circlejerk is strong in this comment section all around, but you just might have taken the prize. You might not like Total Warhammer, it's frankly ridiculous setting and the more arcady gameplay, plenty of people don't. But calling it a "low effort rehash" is the pinnacle of absurdity.
@@felixloewenich2202 I have not played any great deal of Total Warhammer and nor do I plan to. Nothing about those games interest me and they are not what comes to my mind when I talk about Total War. When I say that every game feels like a rehash I'm talking about the games I've played, the side of the franchise I used to enjoy, the historical titles.
And you really can't call this comment section a circlejerk if you ever visited the official forums or the subreddit, which lack any form of critical thought or self awareness. But chances are that's where you come from.
@@SweArdaia Right, yeah. I don't 100% agree with the popular opinion in here, so I must be a troll. Glass houses and stones dude.
Also it is entirely possible for there to be more than one circlejerk simultaneously in the world. Just because the subreddit might be one doesn't mean you guys aren't just happily wanking each other off in here too.
@@felixloewenich2202 It's not difficult to see both yours and Ard's point. Sure, it's obvious a lot of effort has gone into Total Warhammer,. But on the subject of the video, that gunpowder units are copy-pasted crossbows, or that in general the ballistics are just fcked, it's hard to argue that the cause is anything but laziness. I bought and played Rome2, Total Warhammer, Total Warhammer 2 and Three kingdoms, but I can never finish my campaigns cause I just lose interest. I could never put my finger on why this was the case because on paper it should be fun and interesting gameplay, until now, when I realize without the immersion the experience is just kinda "meh". In Shogun2 I've finished practically all clans on legendary, my playtime is like 10-15 times that of the other 4 combined.
I don't even mind the fantasy or romanced history of it. It's fully possible to immersive yourself in fantasy settings, but the parallell between this world and the fantasy/romanced world can only be stretched, not broken. For the purpose of illustration, imagine the Lord of the rings films, but all the orcs wield chicken drumsticks instead of the fantasy (but very realistic application) cleaver-like weapons. The rest of the movie series would still be awesome, and a lot of effort obviously went into it, but as a whole, the experience would just fall flat on its face. However, back to Ard's point, I still bought these sub-par TW games, and CA made a lot of money off of me, so I gave them no incentive to fix it.
I think us TW fans, or at least me, just got too accustomed along the way to expect quality gameplay from their titles and took it for granted, thinking that no matter what, it would be worth the money. It wasn't.
I remember at least ONE unit in Medieval 2 that didn't require any micro to start ranked fire. Calivermen, the Irish unit from the Brittania campaign. They come with skirmish on, which is a problem in itself.
I was scratching my head at the aesthetic criticisms until I realized that it DOES affect the enjoyment of the game. Also seems intentional that the ranged weapon sound got weaker to reflect how impotent they feel to use. In Rome 2 and Attila, most of your ranged units aren't going to get kills unless the enemy has their back turned. And in Warhammer onwards, we've got the fucking health pools.
"Cretan archers"
Yeah. We've all heard that.
More like "Christian archezz" lol
@@pastorofmuppets9346 Been playing Rome 2 with a friend lately, never played.. None of the units seem to have character.
One of my most vivid memories of Total War was of playing with Portugal in Medieval 2 when my teenage mind decided that I would start a campaign without cheats and on a higher dificulty than I was used to. In one of the earliest battles I endend up facing a numerically superior army which included feudal knights, mounted and dismounted, with a mish mash army of militias and pesants and two thirds of those archers and crossbowmen, but I was lucky to find myself on a map with a massive, very steep cliff on my deploiment zone. I deployed my very thin line of infantry at the base with a massive block of archers and crossbowmen in a way that allowed for every man to have a direct line of sight to the enemy.
The madmen did it, it was an heroic victory.
Also, on the topic of slings, I remember being surprised and fascinated when I was taking my archaeology degree and on one of my classes on the early roman republic, the teacher mentioned how the roman army incorporated dedicated slingers who used near bullet shaped lead projectiles on which they would ocasionaly inscribe the typical soldier's trash talking. So yeah, slings are underapreciated.
The Three Kingdoms arrows kinda make me feel like I'm in some cheesy Chinese movie.
The shogun 2 arrows felt the best and looked the best, at least for me.
This always reminds me of my issue with Richard Beddow. His stuff always seems designed to just blend into the background rather than add to the thematic presentation of the battle as Van Dyck did.
i think we can sum it up , that total war games were first made with alot of love in its premise by the early designers,with very little in the way of graphics and/or computing capacity, and they stretched the boundaries with what they had,to make it enjoyable and playable ..and it shows, whilst the newer versions are a more industrialized programs meant to satisfy the demand , providing regular updates and additions[almost like a tv program series..rather than a big movie] and make major profits for the organisation, rather than show any real love/belief in what they do :(
Man I appreciated hearing someone talk about the true power of slings, I've been practicing mine a few months now, lemme tell you it is absolutely no joke!
Yo bro, while watching this video I was thinking about how you sounded so familiar. Well apparently like 5 or so years ago I watched your shogun 2 otomo campaign and now its all coming back to me. Love the vids man and keep it up
I’m surprised you talked about ranged combat without even mentioning Empire or Napoleon. Especially once you got into firearms in the middle of the video
There was no point talking about them, both of those games were before shogun 2. Which had pretty good gunpowder units. Plus those games are solely meant for gunpowder, obv they are good with gunpowder.
Adrian Shephard considering this video is about ranged combat and they’re the only two games in the whole series which are solely focused on ranged combat I think they’re at least worth a mention. Shogun 2 has different mechanics especially for its gunpowder units.
@@j_viking3268 Still, there's no point in talking about them. They have the best gunpowder because they are mainly meant for gunpowder.
Adrian Shephard If they’re the only games 100% focused on ranged units how are they not relevant in a video about ranged combat? 😂😂😂
Also, if they have the best gunpowder mechanics shouldn’t they be used as the benchmark for the best possible way to implement gunpowder units?
@@j_viking3268 1. Gunpowder games are solely meant for ranged combat, meaning that the ranged combat is obv the best.
2.This video is about ranged combat against other units too. Those 2 games are ranged units just facing against each other. What about ranged units against melee units, thats a huge part about this video.
3. This whole video wasnt only for gunpowder you fucking idiot, only a small section was put in for gunpowder. Volound probs just forgot about empire and napoleoon.
Спасибо! Отличное видео, я думал, что я один вижу всю эту деградацию с трассерами и скудными звуками
. И спасибо Total War CAT за субтитры)
Как видно,не только вы...
This is video is so important and so true, really there is no reason for them not to fix this. I get the arcadey, fast paced combat of recent titles if they makes them more money, but really this is all about animations, sound design and visual design, and it's not like they would take them a great deal of extra effort to fix this, is just about changing their priorities and what they are trying to achieve. The point you make about slingers in Rome 1 and 3K is so incredibly clear and exagerated i don't see how someone wouldn't want this or agree with it.
Hoenstly, when I tried Warhammer total war after not having palyed a Total War game for a long time, i didnt like the "feel"of the combat, without me being ablte to put my finger on the exact cause. You nailed it.
35:06 WTF? Rome Total War is so epic, everytime you give an order every soldiers reponds a slightly desincronized "AUH" like in the movie 300
I'm glad you pointed out about the shitty clipping of the archers with them having their unit models sunk all the way upto their shins.
I had the blind defenders try to chew me out on my intial reactions of the warhammer total war pre-release battle footage when I said its amatuer for their models to constantly be clipping like this.
"Its nitpicking!" except it really isnt, not when even the models themselves clip. As in their entire fucking heads phase through their shields while standing idle. Showing the 3D model artists and the animating department had zero communication or just couldnt be bothered. This is actually a huge thing because people like me like to press K to remove the hud and soar through the battle at low altitude to soak the entire thing in in awe of these thousands of men fighting.
And in Warhammer onwards it becomes an indecipherable mosh pit of clipping and set kill moves. For example throw a unit of bats into the middle of a melee. The bats will actually glitch and irratically skip around the frey at mach 10 phasing through all sorts.
Like I said, amatuer for such a big budgeted game.
The problem with TW, like you called out is that it's not about TW or the experience anymore, it's about profits.
I remember that PC Gamer magazine and that OG Shogun demo, it made me buy and fall in love with TW also.
The point of battles were that tactics rule the day, every unit is effective if it's strengths are maximised (archers on a hill or in forests) vs maximising your opponents weaknesses (cavalry have the charge and work well in open terrain).
Someone needs to build a new game and bring the fans along with them.
Speaking of firearms......no Empire of Napoleon??? lol
They are based around firearms so you would have to criticize the whole game. And most of the problems mentioned don't apply to Emipre at least. The crack of the guns, the smoke is mediocre, cannons sound like cannons should, bullets seem to travel in a straight line at a high velocity so idk. Also cannonballs hitting the ground is the most legendary sound.
@@tradend2817 i think volunrund mentioned that he hasnt played either so i guess he just has no experience with hem
Criticizing games on their reddit subreddit is always a hard thing. It seems like there are so many people (maybe the younger genereations?) that just can't take any kind of suggestion or gameplay evolution that isn't the currently in the game. I have a good 50% chance of my posts getting deleted in pretty much any game if you criticize anything, even if its worded in a constructive manner.
Nah, man. I am part of the younger generation and even I can see the facts.
It's millennials doing it, not zoomers. I am a young guy myself and my generation never really acted like this, it's always the older ones in their late 20s and mid 30s deleting everything. At least in my experience.
Reddit is trash anyway, it's a braindead site used by morons who can't take any form of criticism of what they like or believe in and shut down any discussion. You should avoid it
It's not necessarily the younger generation. It's fanboys. People whose entire lives revolve around one thing, a game in this case, and wouldn't know what to do if they couldn't enjoy it, so they don't allow themselves to listen to any criticism.
I'm so glad you showed some actual warbow archers on TH-cam, arrows in real life don't just have impact, they even have that very distinct whistling sound when they're coming at you. Medieval 2 isn't completely realistic or perfect but it's just about as close as Total War ever got to the actual sound of massed archery.
Can we just get a Volound playlist sent over to CA at this point? "Do what he says and I'll buy the game twice" haha
It actually blows my mind that STW had firearms worked to such a degree. When I play Shogun 2 and ranked fire stalls for a million years, I just think that it must be super hard to program properly instead of the dev/engine going backwards 10 years. This video really opened my eyes.
When you finally get a solid army of feudal knights in med 2 and you see a French crossbow stack 😢
In Mount and Blade 2 in Early access made with a much smaller budget - arrows are felt, their weight, sounds, trajectory and ballistics are calculated, and so on
In the last Total wars - arrows and bolts made from nothing
well it is not good acomparison, my car goes real fast gut why that huge ass tractor can't?
Creative Assembly: "Troy is gonna signal a return to the more traditional Total War, we did that really well before, so we want to build on it!"
Also Creative Assembly: *Refuses to re-implement anything that made the Rome I, II, Shogun, or Medieval games amazing, reduces unit variety, continues to ruin ranged combat.*
They are a joke. The laughing stock of Grand Strategy, this is not Total War, this is a Total Disaster. It saddens me that I went from happily playing LAN games with my brother and father on Rome I all day when I was younger, to barely being able to last 50 turns without getting bored of using the same, boring tactics, and watching the same, boring, poorly balanced ranged meta units with awful sound effects and visuals.
When Age of Empires 4, Manor Lords, or literally any other anticipated strategy game releases, I'll ditch this waking nightmare of a franchise until they realise that there's only so long you can appeal to the competitive multiplayer scene before you lose all those who loved the franchise for what it was supposed to be.
Yeha so much tactics on the old games(irony) and in the old games the variety was a joke in games like medieval just a lot of units that worked the same, and also some factions had almost not units, like have you tired moors on medieval 2? They had nothing so you had to make stacks of assasin infantry, but well old games where "realistic" and "balanced" like berserks on rome 1, in the old games there wherent that much different tactics and most factions feeled the same
@@darknachos3435 That is not the point, clearly advances in technology should have made future total war games expand and incorporate what was acceptable and outstanding in the past. Your tirade on unit variety lacks point and sense when comparing the game engines limit. Medieval 2 could only handle 200 different units on maximum. Culture also affects the spread of common spear militia across Europe. You have the gall to talk of unit variety when I can point to Troy and Kingdoms and say "Oh look, copy paste units for every faction with small variety to account for different culture groups." Reskinned javelin boys, giant cow herd wearing human monster units, centaur horse people on special area of recruitment zones sirrah.
@@honestlordcommissarbrighte7921 three kingdoms has a problem at is that is in china all units are mostly of the same culture thats true, and medieval could only handle 200 units? You mean in battle? Well yeha but what i tried to say it not just a lot of units but beign diferent and useful the old games had a problem with thay like easter spearman in rome or for example the mors in medieval 2 have almost no units some things have improved and others have become worse but i think people have too much nostalgia and dont see all the problems in the old games and dont see any improvment in the saga
Ps:sorry my bad english blah blah
@@honestlordcommissarbrighte7921 also in variety the true problem with the old games is if you see games like medieval 2 even with a lot of cultures and a big maps most factions played the same and theyre campaings where equal thats why when they say old games where more "tactical" i fins it hilarious not to mention rome or empire of course
you cant be seriously thinking rome II was good but not shogun 2
Long story short: HP system, sound design and animation speed. Animation speed and sound went silly in Shogun 2 and never recovered. The arrows feel slow and overall "meh". It doesn't feel like a slowass arrow could do any damage.
And the HP system makes projectiles feel week, when you fire off 1-2 volleys into the enemy without any significant effect, and then like 30 people instantly drop.
While the second one is the problem with balance, the first one is a problem in general, and should've been fixed a long ass time ago. I mean the guns feel great, so why can't bows?
Never noticed but now that you mentioned it, can't unsee it..
Thanks to you for this video, and thanks to Konstantin "Total War CAT" for russian subtitles.
If sling-shooting is really your hobby, then I recommend comparing the power of a bullet-projectile with a 4-gauge gun - speaking like a practicing gunsmith.
I'm going to admit two things:
1. My first Total War game was Rome 2. It was the first TW game I watched, it was the first one I bought and played at about 20-30 frames on an old potato laptop I owned. It's still my most played TW game on steam because I didn't have the salty taste of the horrendous launch on my tongue, having bought it a good year or two after its release, and I just loved the aesthetic of the ancient classical era of Rome and Greece. I own Attila, and Warhammer 1 and 2. Britannia was where I stopped. Even though I came in at the Rome 2 stage, past the Total War glory days as it was, I could already see how the games were getting more and more arcadey, how glorious melee combat even in the height of its historical or setting prevalence was continuing to take a further and further seat back to the weaker and cowardice-filled ranged "combat". I played Britannia for appoximately 93 minutes before requesting a refund on steam. Three Kingdoms my interest peaked at watching a few videos and thinking "that dueling is kinda cool" and that was it. Troy, after a singular gameplay showing followed by me learning it was going to be an Epic exclusive, I completely lost any interest in. I've only been following the Total War series since about 5 years ago and am already sad at how much the series seems to be changing for the worse, so I can only imagine how painful it must be for people who've been here since the beginning 20 bloody years ago to see what its become now.
2. When I first started seeing some of these videos in my recommended, my first thoughts were "heh some old codger is suffering from some 'back in my day' syndrome it seems." I set it to watch later and went about my business. Then a few days later another video popped in my recommended and I figured "oh what the hell might as well I guess." In the beginning, my thoughts didn't change. Totally just some back in my day syndrome as he has on those rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. Then you started getting into specifics, directly cross-comparing the games from 10 to 20 years ago to modern titles. The audio, animations, impact, the general feeling of the battles. Things I'd've never noticed before suddenly pointed out crystal clear. And I found myself slowly starting to realize just what you meant. Those times when I'd have to focus fire 4 units of Cretan Archers on a single unit of *shirtless men with bows and no shields* just to kill them with any sort of speed in Rome 2. The weak plinking and just lack of any meat behind the sounds of crossbows opening fire in Attila. Literally the entirety of ranged combat in the Warhammer games. I didn't experience the golden age of total war games and I can already tell they definitely seem more satisfying in these aspects at the least.
So, yeah. I definitely see your point
Another excellent critique Volound. As a Bowls player myself I appreciated the clip you used.
thanks for the solidarity as always dragonheart. you always appreciated good gameplay and good ideas. one of the good ones.
@@Volound No problem. My old bowls coach once told me that the cream always rises to the top, and the same applies to you with the recent nonsense you've put up with. Best wishes as always, and keep making these critical masterpieces as they are thought provoking and demonstrate how empty these newer games are.
You had me at flaccidification, sir.
I knew the series was in trouble way back in Shogun 2. The fact that the city in castle sieges were nothing compared to Medieval 2 really bothered me and then the downward Trend just continued. The combat was great, it was like they forgot to do cities and castles or 2 different teams jad workes on the game.
That's cause in shogun 2 you're never besieging the city, you're besieging the castle. Now it is true that the city should be somewhere around, especially for the major towns, but other than that it's just because it's a different culture, the castle was pretty much its own entity, separate from the city (albeit generally inside said city) with its own walls
Rome: Total War is now my favorite game cause you introduced me to it, Volound. Who would’ve thought that my favorite game would be released the same year I was born. Thanks for making these great videos man.
Man, You realy made this negative open my eyes, dude. I have allways felt like the newer games are inferiour in some way and you allways make so good points. I have been playing Medival 2 with the DaQ for so long and just Lotr in Total War is so awesome, but I fear a mod for Warhammer would not feel cool. Just look cool. I did'nt trie a new TW game between Rome2 and Until a friend bought me Warhammer one and two so I could play with him. But I loose interset in it fast, and just go back to Medival 2. But I just see it so clear after watching this and other debunkings you've done. I did'nt understand it.... but my brain did..
My mind was actually blown when I saw Shogun 1 firearms. My most played game is Shogun 2 and my first is Napoleon, and I never once thought that there could be a Total War game that actually got it totally right.
It feels good to see someone explain why old Total War was good in current times, rather than letting the narrative continue that they were JUST clunky old videogames that people only like because of nostalgia and mods.
RTW with remastered graphics, improved way finding , and added naval battles would no doubt be one of the ( If not the ) best Total war games ever made
I paused 8 minutes into the video to comment. I was ready to give sub as soon you comparatively mentioned the authenticity
(or lack thereof) of the sound between versions.
I've played with making music and immediately thought "I can mod this". Then I gave a nod in solidarity to how you feel about having a post removed from a Subreddit, because... (eye-roll) moderators. I feel your frustration. THEN you went on about the physics of a sling... BAM, instant comment and subsequent sub.
Why do developers lean towards and bend a knee to "arcade sound designs" when we live in a world full of incredible freedom of design choices when it comes to sound? We have Dolby Atmos, Headphone X and yes, even Windows sonic, with a plethora of format choices ranging from AAC, OOG for analog and aptX and other LDAC codecs for those that prefer Bluetooth headphones.
The lack of audio authenticity in this day and age, boggles the mind and signal to me, cheap and lazy sound design. I just don't understand why such an essential human sensory aspect, such as sound, is so often overlooked and sacrificed these days.
14:29 lmao the shots from the trebuchets are traveling at the same speed as the crossbow bolts.
So I practice archery as a hobby using ottoman and chinese style bows. The intro to this video talking about shogun 1 was quite motivating for me. I have to agree that the shogun 1 clip looks the most realistic. Almost as if whoever was coming up with the design parameters did some interviewing of archers and visited some outdoor ranges. The vibe of that line of archers on the hill just feels right man.
In that Rome video at about the 2 and a half minute mark the only thing missing, for the sake of immersion, are arrows sometimes shattering as the armor deflects them. I bet being in a formation like that under arrow fire was LOUD. Current game engine tech could handle that without breaking a sweat. I think the sound of the bows is exaggerated, which is ok for a video game.
The 3K clip that follows feels like the least amount of acceptable effort was given to complete that programing and design task. The sound didn't bother me as much as it did you, but everything else is pitiful. At least their grip looks somewhat correct. I almost expected them to use a western style grip out of laziness.
I only play Medieval 2 total war, Warhammer mod. My gunline is central to the army; I just add 1 or 2 archer units to suppress enemy ranged. The trick is also to checkerboard your army, like the Roman Legion maniples, this allows guns to fire longer and into the flanks of which catch onto the "hedgehog" defense of your infantry. Faith, steel, and gunpowder :)
I came from Total War CAT, thank you for video!
What i miss most is that in medieval total war 2 cav that charged with lances, switched to swords after the lances were expended. Such a high tech feature was apparently to hard to implement in newer games were heavy cav poke at each other with lances in melee. I know it's a minor feature, but still.
Slings: David and Goliath. David wasn't the underdog, Goliath was, he never stood a chance.
David was short. A right dwarf. Its by pure luck his tiny little body could aim high enough to hit Goliath.
I remember and still know how heavy arrows in Medieval 2 feel; you can just hear the THUMP of arrows smacking into their opponents, the metal cling hitting skin as soldiers scream and fall as they die. It doesn't feel like that anymore.
Genoese crossbows turning around with their shields on their backs, peeking over their shoulder to make sure theres no arrows raining on them before they turn and fire. Hearing all crossbows and bows go AT ONCE and you hear the plucking of the arrows from their strings, the loud flying sounds of said projectiles.. that is attention to detail, and pure love for your game.
Being able to volley instead of them just firing randomly.. such a good feeling.
10:38 It looks like the three kingdoms slingers just do a jerk off motion with their hand an then throw the rock with just their hand 😅
I started Total War with Rome 1, and those were my favorite gaming moments of my whole life. Same with Medieval 2. Ever since Shogun 2, I've been looking at each subsequent Total War game like Don Corleone in the Godfather: "see how they've massacred my boy."
the strange thing is, is that they have proven that they can improve from game to game. And in this case im talking about Empire to Napoleon. I remember the sound effects in Empire being quite dismal and very "pop pop bang bang". But in Napoleon, the sound affects were so much more heavy, and you could hear cannon shot flying through the air and bouncing off the ground. Also there was so much musket smoke in Napoleon, which A) was realistic, and B) looked cool. It can be done.
Also Crossbows in Attila were done pretty well iirc.
Just stumbled across your channel and I'm really surprised how you summarised everything I felt wrong in the last games of the series.
The future is dark, really...
Jesus Christ, after I saw those sling vids I will never look at slingers the same again. Much respect
In the older total war games muskets felt much deadlier too like in Empire a regiment of line infantry with the fire by rank research just destroyed the opponent and you could just see the aftermath of a single volley over the enemy unit now the front line being filled with bunch of corpses in warhammer muskets felt really weird like it felt like somehow they weren’t doing any damage
The real question is, how did you manage to make Rome total war run so well on your pc?
One of the weirdest things that improves your Rome I FPS is using a corded mouse instead of a wireless mouse
Rome 2 always ran good on my shitty pc ig I was just lucky
Original Rome always worked well on my rig
This is why the last total war game I bought was Attila
@@exmilitarygaming13 for some reason i had shit frames in that
Love your videos dude, it's great to remember when Total War had class.
Wasn't aware of the Volound Purge they had at the TW subreddit, which made your content even more enjoyable. I would love to add to the list of topics for you to discuss, but since I havent really played any Total War games since Shogun 2 and maybe a little WH2 I can't really give any ideas, I will happily upvote your videos though. Keep on doing them!
Ehhh, wishing more Shogun 2 cannot go wrong!
Holy crap you nailed all the little details that cause me to keep going back to medieval and attila and Rome 2 with mods of course. Here's another one for you:
Thrones of Britannia nailed the combat environment audio. Here's what I mean. When you zoom out in a battle and see your marching forward towards the enemy walls, you can hear them chanting and barking orders. No other total war has this visceral audio to make you feel like you're really stuck in an epic siege.
I think a big part of it all is also to dumb it down for a dumber player base. Taking away a variable like elevation, and reloading mechanics means you can just park your unit anywhere and not get "punished" for making mistakes. Same with the calculation system for difficulty. It is really simplistic all of it. Just to get people to play. Not giving a challenge at all. And in the end, it makes lots of aspects ugly, but as long as the tunic is fancy enough and players keep "winning" the money keeps rolling in. If the testudo looks cool, units go into shield wall, and it looks epic. Who cares if the gameplay is good.
Just this last Friday I got Total War Medieval 2 which is my first total war game and one of the first things I noticed was during my first siege defense my peasant archers and castle towers all shooting down on the enemy was unbelievably satisfying. The sound and spectical of them all wizing through the air at the same unit was epic so its a big couincedence that I happen to see this video that just came out. Also the dishonored pistol point was spot on. I love that you always bring up dishonored because its one of my favorite games of all time and no one, especially on youtube, ever talks about it. I remember I used to watch your videos on dishonored back in the day and you as well as stealthgamerbr inspired me to attempt cool stunts. Love your content, subbed!