The point that is underlying in Cliffe's premise is that all people (including atheists) have a conscience that is evidence of objective morality, and therefore God.
Cliffe explained so easily and yet all the explanations he did went around these students head ,it basically means these guys don't even think hard. A non native english speaker as myself understands cliffe point easily
Rj H Being a homosexual is not in itself a sin..for God loves all of his children regardless of sexual orientation. Being attracted to someone who is of the same sex is not a sin. Having feelings of attraction toward someone of the same sex is not a sin. It becomes a sin when those feelings of attraction are acted upon it. The same thing applies to heterosexuals as well.The difference is self control. Sexual intercourse was designed by God soley within the confines of marraige between a man and a woman. God intended sex to be a very intimate and sacred act between husband/wife in love.
oldgordo61 So what's your point. I know all that you stated. It does not change the fact that our children are being indoctrinated to think it's OK. It's not OK.
bonnie43uk I think you're the one that doesn't get it. :( You want to keep doing certain wrong things, & they are coming between you & God. I don't know if you're ever going to get it, but I will pray most desperately that you do!!!...
the reason they have trouble understanding their own relative values is, because they don’t live it out & to agree with Cliff would make them hypocrites
bonnie43uk The question is NOT whether a person needs to believe in God to be good. Rather, the question is… Can anyone be good if there is no God ? The answer is No. If there is No God, then there is No objective standard for Good.
TheMirabillis Ah, good to hear from you again Mirabillis. In order for you to qualify that statement don't you need to prove that God exists. I've no doubt you have your own version of proof that you and other Christians adhere to, but it would be good if that same proof didn't rely on so much faith so that I could see what you are seeing. Let me ask you this Mirabillis, how does your god communicate with you exactly? Is it an audible voice in your head?, if so, how do you differentiate between your own consciousness as thoughts come into your head, and Gods voice? What does he sound like?, or is it just a sense of knowing he's with you, a warm fuzzy feeling maybe? As I understand it, you can't see him, touch him, smell him.hear him, or taste him, he's totally invisible, but you can connect with him, how exactly? What has he ever told you?. And if he didn't exist, would that be a green light for you to do as you wished?
bonnie43uk If there is no God, then there is no objective standard for Good. The moral argument for God's existence IS moral evidence for the existence of God. On Cliffe's videos, he keeps hammering this point over & over to the students.
TheMirabillis I know Cliffe keeps hammering this point over and over to the students, but just because Cliffe says it's so, doesn't make it so. Cliffe has bought into the bible, he accepts the writings as fact. For me, I've always been a little skeptical about the authenticity of those writings, many authors over many decades, I know all that. If Gods words were absolutely crucial for mankind ( which is what Christians tell us) then why would they not be preserved and kept in pristine condition, why would God allow the original copies to be lost so that we only have copies of copies of copies of copies.Why would God be so forgetful. Also, at the time, in other continents, they also had their own Gods, in South America, China, Australia, Northern Europe, their Gods were just as real to those people. Anyway, it would be good if you could answer my point, how exactly does God reveal himself to you? Is it a tangible thing that you can feel, give me an idea of just how he communicates with you. I used to think I could hear God in my head, but it was just me rationalizing things and telling myself things, it was my own conscious thought process. As soon as i realized that, a lot of other things I'd always struggled to understand concerning Christianity, they became much clearer.
Cliffe should've corrected her, God is not cruel!!!, it's His world, we are His creatures, He has all right and authority to tell us the right standards and principles to live by..
When people argue against objective morality on the basis of evolution or societal standards they’re not actually saying anything about morality. Meaning they say nothing about good and evil/right and wrong. What they’re arguing speaks only to what happens to benefit or not benefit society at any given time while attempting to give it a moral implication. A moral implication that, in their thinking, is subjective. To argue against objective morality on the basis of fluid, ever-changing societal standards says nothing about morality and fails as an argument. Societal benefit and morality are not the same thing.
*1GodOnlyOne made the following comment and TH-cam has censored the ability to respond to it....* Original Comment: "I really like Cliffe Knechtle a lot, and some of the points in this video are spot-on, but I must point out that the Bible does not state that sex is solely for one man and one woman -- not in any chapter, not in any verse. The Bible does not state anywhere that being gay could somehow be a sin." Response: Genesis clearly indicates God's intent for sex in the relationship between man and woman[1]. In fact, God strict condemns homosexuality and explicitly considers in "an abomination" -- Why? Because it's a perversion of the original intent for sex and sexuality[2] ... *[1] "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Genesis **2:24* ✞ *[2] "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." Leviticus **20:13* ✞
Cliffe did a brilliant job answering both students. I will just add that first, Paul does not contradict Jesus. Secondly, the innate drive and attraction towards same sex people or as many good looking women as possible is not how God made people. Just because we have the drive for these things, it does not make it right. We also have a free will to submit to our drives, or to control ourselves and choose not to give in to those lusts and temptations. In other words, we choose what we do. As Cliffe wisely said, all of us have a readiness to sin factor because all of us are born into a chaotic, sin cursed world. People choose evil rather than good, and that is why this world is messed up.
The standard of right and wrong is set with God. Just as there is a standard of weights and measures or else one person's length of a meter is different than from another person. Would be all relative.
I find it funny how she finds it so unbelievable that if Cliffe didn't believe in god he would womanize. like really? if she can't understand why a man would womanize if he doesn't believe in god, she's either obtuse or not being honest. if there is no god, ATHIEM DEMANDS you bone as many people as possible. "athiests aren't running rampant sleeping with each other" my response would be "well maybe they should"
It's better when cliff says, there has to be God for objectives to exist. I don't like it when he says: if there is no God, then life is meaningless. I think the first way of saying it is better, more revelatory of the truth and more comforting in terms of vernacular.
These college kids are missing the point. The only reason why we as a society/world have moral standards is because someone(God) with a perfect moral standard set the rules for us to live by internally(God wrote his law in our hearts) which is why we all universally agree with murder, theft & adultery etc; as being morally wrong. If morality originated from imperfect beings then it should or would not be respected because imperfection can not set rules of moral perfection. It would all then be relative.
If you all haven't seen a documentary called... It's worse than you think... By revelations of Jesus Christ ministries... I suggest you do... All praise and glory to the most high Jesus Christ
What are you talking about Cliff? In Genesis 38: 13-15, Tamar covered her face with a veil to fool Judah into thinking she was a prostitute. Her hair is her covering.
+Jesus-is-mine The people groups, customs, culture, and way of life of the early days of Israel's family territory is completely different than that of 1st century Corinth
watching this again, Cliffe makes an astounding statement at about 13:58 he says "If there is no God and life is meaningless, then I don't know of a good reason not to steal from others". If it's only God that's keeping you from doing bad things Cliffe I don't really know what to say to you. Why aren't the prisons full of atheists in that case? Life has lots of meaning to millions of people who don't believe in God, we live for our fellow man, to make a better society, to raise our children with good morals, the reasons are endless. Yes, ultimately, there may well be no reason for life, in a few million years or much less that that, our lives will have had no impact on the planet as a whole, the human species isn't the be all and end all. In Evolutionary terms we've been here for a fraction of this planets existence, but in that briefest of moments, .. in those '3 score years and 10' we can make a huge impact on those around us.. the world is our oyster :-)
Bonnie, Cliffe has said this probably close to 100k times now - he doesnt mean atheist cant have meaning, he simply means the fact that they DO have meaning proves this all isnt an accident!! The things you pointed out are ALL meaningful BUT if this is all an accident why would I try to live “Morally”?!? Why is what Bernie Madoff did wrong if there is no God?! Shouldnt you applause his desire to get the most for himself?
1GodOnlyOne the bible clearly states man and woman are to be married., if you're Married, you are allowed to have sex with your spouse. Any sex, or relationship outside of how God set up is sin. Jesus states, have you not read, God made them in the beginning male and female, and the 2 shall become 1. What God put together, let no man separate
Cliffe constantly makes this point that "If there is no God, then life is ultimately meaningless", this is absolutely not true, as a human being you can make your own meaning, and it doesn't have to be selfish reasons, simply by having a family is a wonderful reason to exist, to see your children grow and to raise them well, educate them, love them, etc, that is an excellent reason to exist, you don't need God in your life. Cliffe was saying if there was no God, he could see no reason why he wouldn't steal from others, and cheat on his wife! I don't know of any fellow atheists who do that, if he's genuinely saying his morals would go out the window if God didn't exist then it doesn't say much about him as a person. We humans are social creatures, we need one another to get along in life, if you start breaking those social boundaries, society will see to it that you will become ostracized in some way, prison, or losing your friends etc.
***** I am living proof that I am right 1God, you are free to accept Christianity as true, if it works for you, I'm happy for you. Are you saying my life has no meaning.?
bonnie43uk I'm not a believer in atheist Dogma, no, so I am saying that everyone's life has objective meaning, and that is only because God gives us that objective meaning. Don't pretend to be too stupid to understand the point: Without God, life could have no objective meaning, and yet it does. …or are you not pretending?
***** you say "life could have no objective meaning without God", I'm here to tell you it can. I'm not sure what you mean by "atheist dogma", could you define that?. To be an atheist, there is only 1 criteria, ..to lack belief in a god. Just as you might say you lack belief in hob goblins, I also lack belief in God. there is no dogma involved in that as i see it. Tea-time for me now .. cup of tea and biscuits.
Jesus Christ may have bled on a cross, but I sincerely doubt he rose from the dead. He's not alive today, and the only way he would still be around is in the dusty wind because his body is long gone.
Jesus Christ may have bled on a cross, but I sincerely doubt he rose from the dead. He's not alive today, and the only way he would still be around is in the dusty wind because his body is long gone.
Try reading the gospels. It was never stated that he is still roaming around in a bodily form today. He died publicly and brutally on a cross, 5days later he rose from the dead and appeared to over 500people. Jesus gives the Great Commission “go into all of the world and make disciples of all nations” (Matt28-16-20). He told them to pray fervently and the holy spirit will come. He then ascended to heaven with the father. And the story of the early church began. I suggest you read the 4 gospels and the book of acts.
The point that is underlying in Cliffe's premise is that all people (including atheists) have a conscience that is evidence of objective morality, and therefore God.
Jesus is real. He rocks. He loves everyone. God bless & peace to all
Jesus Christ so amazing
Cliffe explained so easily and yet all the explanations he did went around these students head ,it basically means these guys don't even think hard. A non native english speaker as myself understands cliffe point easily
all intelligent discussions ultimately ends in objective and subjective morality
13:57 everyone was glued lol
We need help with our children. They are being indoctrinated that their is no God and that homosexuality is OK.
Being gay is not a sin.
it is .
Leviticus 18:22
22 ‘You shall not lie with a male as 1one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
***** yea ok. Your so wrong you could never be right. Its a real big sin...
Rj H Being a homosexual is not in itself a sin..for God loves all of his children regardless of sexual orientation.
Being attracted to someone who is of the same sex is not a sin. Having feelings of attraction toward someone of the same sex is not a sin. It becomes a sin when those feelings of attraction are acted upon it. The same thing applies to heterosexuals as well.The difference is self control.
Sexual intercourse was designed by God soley within the confines of marraige between a man and a woman. God intended sex to be a very intimate and sacred act between husband/wife in love.
oldgordo61 So what's your point. I know all that you stated. It does not change the fact that our children are being indoctrinated to think it's OK. It's not OK.
Its not the degree of sin that matters, its the fact of it.
20.02 Cliffe's face is classic when guy cuts him off while making a point
Heh, yeah, i noticed that. Cliffe simply doesn't get it does he :-)
bonnie43uk I think you're the one that doesn't get it. :( You want to keep doing certain wrong things, & they are coming between you & God. I don't know if you're ever going to get it, but I will pray most desperately that you do!!!...
dulcimer22 you can't assure that
" Oh you sweet summer child. " I'm convinced that guy was trying to cheer up a hypothetically De-Jesus'd Cliff in his nihilist state.
Nice finishing statement!
Here you are again
@@jesustalkspace gotta be positive
The meaning of your communication is the response that you get. By the looks on the audience faces the response is bewilderment 😂😂😂
the reason they have trouble understanding their own relative values is, because they don’t live it out & to agree with Cliff would make them hypocrites
If there is no God, then meaning, value & purpose are subjective & relative. atheism is unliveable.
You are correct, Sir!
=)
bonnie43uk
The question is NOT whether a person needs to believe in God to be good. Rather, the question is… Can anyone be good if there is no God ?
The answer is No.
If there is No God, then there is No objective standard for Good.
TheMirabillis Ah, good to hear from you again Mirabillis. In order for you to qualify that statement don't you need to prove that God exists. I've no doubt you have your own version of proof that you and other Christians adhere to, but it would be good if that same proof didn't rely on so much faith so that I could see what you are seeing. Let me ask you this Mirabillis, how does your god communicate with you exactly? Is it an audible voice in your head?, if so, how do you differentiate between your own consciousness as thoughts come into your head, and Gods voice? What does he sound like?, or is it just a sense of knowing he's with you, a warm fuzzy feeling maybe? As I understand it, you can't see him, touch him, smell him.hear him, or taste him, he's totally invisible, but you can connect with him, how exactly? What has he ever told you?. And if he didn't exist, would that be a green light for you to do as you wished?
bonnie43uk
If there is no God, then there is no objective standard for Good.
The moral argument for God's existence IS moral evidence for the existence of God.
On Cliffe's videos, he keeps hammering this point over & over to the students.
TheMirabillis I know Cliffe keeps hammering this point over and over to the students, but just because Cliffe says it's so, doesn't make it so. Cliffe has bought into the bible, he accepts the writings as fact. For me, I've always been a little skeptical about the authenticity of those writings, many authors over many decades, I know all that. If Gods words were absolutely crucial for mankind ( which is what Christians tell us) then why would they not be preserved and kept in pristine condition, why would God allow the original copies to be lost so that we only have copies of copies of copies of copies.Why would God be so forgetful. Also, at the time, in other continents, they also had their own Gods, in South America, China, Australia, Northern Europe, their Gods were just as real to those people. Anyway, it would be good if you could answer my point, how exactly does God reveal himself to you? Is it a tangible thing that you can feel, give me an idea of just how he communicates with you. I used to think I could hear God in my head, but it was just me rationalizing things and telling myself things, it was my own conscious thought process. As soon as i realized that, a lot of other things I'd always struggled to understand concerning Christianity, they became much clearer.
I gotta say, that girl grilled Pastor Cliffe real good, but still his point on objective morality/good wins d day
We’re screwed.
Cliffe should've corrected her, God is not cruel!!!, it's His world, we are His creatures, He has all right and authority to tell us the right standards and principles to live by..
When people argue against objective morality on the basis of evolution or societal standards they’re not actually saying anything about morality. Meaning they say nothing about good and evil/right and wrong. What they’re arguing speaks only to what happens to benefit or not benefit society at any given time while attempting to give it a moral implication. A moral implication that, in their thinking, is subjective. To argue against objective morality on the basis of fluid, ever-changing societal standards says nothing about morality and fails as an argument. Societal benefit and morality are not the same thing.
Without God, there could be no objective reason to respect anyone, and yet there is.
No
That is correct. If God doesn't exist object good, love, justice do not exist. They're all just biochemical reactions.
*1GodOnlyOne made the following comment and TH-cam has censored the ability to respond to it....*
Original Comment:
"I really like Cliffe Knechtle a lot, and some of the points in this video are spot-on, but I must point out that the Bible does not state that sex is solely for one man and one woman -- not in any chapter, not in any verse. The Bible does not state anywhere that being gay could somehow be a sin."
Response:
Genesis clearly indicates God's intent for sex in the relationship between man and woman[1]. In fact, God strict condemns homosexuality and explicitly considers in "an abomination" -- Why? Because it's a perversion of the original intent for sex and sexuality[2] ...
*[1] "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Genesis **2:24* ✞
*[2] "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." Leviticus **20:13* ✞
Our country without God is over if these people are leading the future with those ideals where they can't comprehend both sides of the argument
Ppl everything is created by God final he gave us what we have use it for the best.
We are created in the image of God
Cliffe did a brilliant job answering both students.
I will just add that first, Paul does not contradict Jesus. Secondly, the innate drive and attraction towards same sex people or as many good looking women as possible is not how God made people. Just because we have the drive for these things, it does not make it right. We also have a free will to submit to our drives, or to control ourselves and choose not to give in to those lusts and temptations. In other words, we choose what we do. As Cliffe wisely said, all of us have a readiness to sin factor because all of us are born into a chaotic, sin cursed world. People choose evil rather than good, and that is why this world is messed up.
The standard of right and wrong is set with God. Just as there is a standard of weights and measures or else one person's length of a meter is different than from another person. Would be all relative.
I find it funny how she finds it so unbelievable that if Cliffe didn't believe in god he would womanize. like really? if she can't understand why a man would womanize if he doesn't believe in god, she's either obtuse or not being honest. if there is no god, ATHIEM DEMANDS you bone as many people as possible. "athiests aren't running rampant sleeping with each other" my response would be "well maybe they should"
It's better when cliff says, there has to be God for objectives to exist.
I don't like it when he says: if there is no God, then life is meaningless.
I think the first way of saying it is better, more revelatory of the truth and more comforting in terms of vernacular.
I see your point, but both statements are true:
Without God, life could have no objective meaning, and yet it does.
These college kids are missing the point. The only reason why we as a society/world have moral standards is because someone(God) with a perfect moral standard set the rules for us to live by internally(God wrote his law in our hearts) which is why we all universally agree with murder, theft & adultery etc; as being morally wrong. If morality originated from imperfect beings then it should or would not be respected because imperfection can not set rules of moral perfection. It would all then be relative.
If you all haven't seen a documentary called... It's worse than you think... By revelations of Jesus Christ ministries... I suggest you do... All praise and glory to the most high Jesus Christ
Without God, being rude could not be objectively wrong, and yet it is.
Why does she think God gives us a specific sexual orientation?
Without God, cheating on your spouse could not be objectively wrong, and yet it is.
Without God, causing suffering could not be objectively wrong, and yet it is.
Matthew 18:23-35,
Without God, committed relationships could not be objectively right, and yet they are.
What are you talking about Cliff? In Genesis 38: 13-15, Tamar covered her face with a veil to fool Judah into thinking she was a prostitute. Her hair is her covering.
+Jesus-is-mine The people groups, customs, culture, and way of life of the early days of Israel's family territory is completely different than that of 1st century Corinth
you said it your self GENESIS
Women are to submit to there husbands as christ submits to the father but he is equal with the father but submits out of love
Without God, there could be no objective means for distinguishing "better" from "worse," and yet there are.
watching this again, Cliffe makes an astounding statement at about 13:58 he says "If there is no God and life is meaningless, then I don't know of a good reason not to steal from others". If it's only God that's keeping you from doing bad things Cliffe I don't really know what to say to you. Why aren't the prisons full of atheists in that case? Life has lots of meaning to millions of people who don't believe in God, we live for our fellow man, to make a better society, to raise our children with good morals, the reasons are endless. Yes, ultimately, there may well be no reason for life, in a few million years or much less that that, our lives will have had no impact on the planet as a whole, the human species isn't the be all and end all. In Evolutionary terms we've been here for a fraction of this planets existence, but in that briefest of moments, .. in those '3 score years and 10' we can make a huge impact on those around us.. the world is our oyster :-)
+bonnie43 uk u are superficial
Bonnie, Cliffe has said this probably close to 100k times now - he doesnt mean atheist cant have meaning, he simply means the fact that they DO have meaning proves this all isnt an accident!! The things you pointed out are ALL meaningful BUT if this is all an accident why would I try to live “Morally”?!? Why is what Bernie Madoff did wrong if there is no God?! Shouldnt you applause his desire to get the most for himself?
Without God, there could be no love, and yet there is.
You need to learn to rephrase this so you can get your real point across. This sounds like you don’t need God in order for love to exist.
Without God, stealing could not be objectively wrong, and yet it is.
Without God, it could not be objectively wrong to degrade any relationship, and yet it is.
1GodOnlyOne the bible clearly states man and woman are to be married., if you're Married, you are allowed to have sex with your spouse.
Any sex, or relationship outside of how God set up is sin. Jesus states, have you not read, God made them in the beginning male and female, and the 2 shall become 1. What God put together, let no man separate
Without God, breaching someone's trust could not be objectively wrong, and yet it is.
Without God, life could have no objective meaning, and yet it does.
Cliffe constantly makes this point that "If there is no God, then life is ultimately meaningless", this is absolutely not true, as a human being you can make your own meaning, and it doesn't have to be selfish reasons, simply by having a family is a wonderful reason to exist, to see your children grow and to raise them well, educate them, love them, etc, that is an excellent reason to exist, you don't need God in your life. Cliffe was saying if there was no God, he could see no reason why he wouldn't steal from others, and cheat on his wife! I don't know of any fellow atheists who do that, if he's genuinely saying his morals would go out the window if God didn't exist then it doesn't say much about him as a person. We humans are social creatures, we need one another to get along in life, if you start breaking those social boundaries, society will see to it that you will become ostracized in some way, prison, or losing your friends etc.
You are wrong on all points.
***** I am living proof that I am right 1God, you are free to accept Christianity as true, if it works for you, I'm happy for you. Are you saying my life has no meaning.?
bonnie43uk I'm not a believer in atheist Dogma, no, so I am saying that everyone's life
has objective meaning, and that is only because God gives us that objective meaning.
Don't pretend to be too stupid to understand the point: Without God, life could have
no objective meaning, and yet it does. …or are you not pretending?
***** you say "life could have no objective meaning without God", I'm here to tell you it can. I'm not sure what you mean by "atheist dogma", could you define that?. To be an atheist, there is only 1 criteria, ..to lack belief in a god. Just as you might say you lack belief in hob goblins, I also lack belief in God. there is no dogma involved in that as i see it.
Tea-time for me now .. cup of tea and biscuits.
It's amazing you don't get the point Cliffe is making.
Jesus Christ may have bled on a cross, but I sincerely doubt he rose from the dead. He's not alive today, and the only way he would still be around is in the dusty wind because his body is long gone.
Prove those assertions. Nevermind -- you can't!
=)
Cliffe has bad reasoning and understanding.
What is Stuart up too now???
Cliffe the Clown seems to spend a lot of time thinking about homosexual men......lots of time......I wonder why ??
you're a good person.
Jesus Christ may have bled on a cross, but I sincerely doubt he rose from the dead. He's not alive today, and the only way he would still be around is in the dusty wind because his body is long gone.
Prove those assertions. Oh yeah -- you can't!
+Todd Roy I tend to agree with you Todd, it's highly improbable that the resurrection ever happened.
Try reading the gospels. It was never stated that he is still roaming around in a bodily form today. He died publicly and brutally on a cross, 5days later he rose from the dead and appeared to over 500people. Jesus gives the Great Commission “go into all of the world and make disciples of all nations” (Matt28-16-20). He told them to pray fervently and the holy spirit will come. He then ascended to heaven with the father. And the story of the early church began. I suggest you read the 4 gospels and the book of acts.