Just a thought about Stannis wielding 'Lightbringer': Richard the Lionheart named every sword he wielded 'Excalibur'. He knew none of these weapons were King Arthur's, it was more about what the sword meant that gave it power.
I think that has a lot of storytelling power especially on ASOIAF where names and birthright are major themes, hence the whole Stannis vs his own “nephew” who actually doesn’t SHARE HIS NAME (or shouldn’t share his name is a better phrase)
This. In her mind, it is Lightbringer because she gives it the enchantment and the name to make it so. It's her trying to make prophecy come to pass in the manner that she believes it should either out of desperation, arrogance, or both.
I swear I love how obsessed you guys are. I"m legit becoming a fanatic. The way you talk about asoiaf gets me so fucking hyped. I haven't reread the books in years but I still come to watch your videos cause it blows my mind how you guys change my perspective on things and I love it.
My theory has always been that Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in an attempt to turn his sword into the real lightbringer (as she's the only person he actually loves). I think Mel gave him the fake sword to bide time until she could convince him to do what needs to be done (in her opinion). I also think being a shadowbinder has given her an elevated opinion of her importance, so she feels her choice of Stannis HAS to be right and that's why she's being so stubborn.
Maybe he'll sacrifice Davos. Maybe Davos will willingly sacrifice himself. It'll be kind of the gender subversion and Davos seems like someone Stannis loves, and Davos seems thematically related to the story of Lightbringer, too.
Stannis believes in older laws, it is why he chose his duty to Robert over Aerys. He would never sacrifice his daughter ( f*ck Dumb and Dumber) for public support or a magical sword, otherwise what is he fighting for? He can't say duty or honor or his family or even for what's right, plus no one would follow a kinslayer.
I see that as her speeding it up. She believes he will make a sword with a great sacrifice. But in order to have more people follow Stannis, they need to make a show.
As per @Ussurin and @Lane Stapp, the logical conclusion of a) Melissandre understands politics and b) Melissandre believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai Reborn is that she knows the sword is not the real deal, but she needs to declare it 'Lightbringer' and created a spectacle to convince people to follow Stannis. In the legend, Azor Ahai forged the sword and tempered it in the heart of his wife, and her spirit went into the blade to light it up; Melissandre's aim might be to get Stannis to a place where he would sacrifice his wife, and Selyse would be prepared to sacrifice herself.
I think that she once did believe that Stannis was Azor Ahai, but she eventually decided that he was not Azor Ahai, but rather that he was going to lead her to Azor Ahai. It always struck me odd that in her chapter she said something to the effect "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and Rhillor only shows me Snow." Why would she be looking for Azor Ahai if she followed his ass to the Wall? So, I think by her chapter she realizes that Stannis isn't it. I guess I view Melisandre as someone who had a powerful vision of Stannis and interpreted it as him being Azor Ahai. Then, the Battle of Blackwater probably shook her faith in that. In the aftermath of that sometime she went from Stannis = Azor Ahai to Stannis will lead her to Azor Ahai. And, now, Rhillor might be showing her that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai (or will lead her to Azor Ahai), but she's dismissing it at the moment. But, I could be completely wrong!
She was looking for a glimpse of Stannis and was frustrated by the fact that she only sees snow though. I’m going to go look at it to make sure that’s what happened there but that’s how I remember it
@@JohnTCampbell1986 I think the capitalized Snow is meant as a hint to the reader. If she actually saw Jon, I would assume she’d say Lord Snow or Jon Snow instead of just Snow.
Is it possible that, because of magic being reborn, that Mel's zealotry is so deep that she is glamoring the sword without knowing it? As though her subconscious is working the magic and her foremind is able to ignore it?
Love this video as always. Your take on Stannis honestly made me like him more. I’m always so distracted by disliking the fanaticism that I’ve never really looked at Stannis for the man he is underneath.
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Well done guys. Small wonder GRRM says Melisandre is the most misunderstood character in the story. With inconsistencies like this how can he blame us? Apart from trying to figure out who or what she is, something that puzzles me about Mel is why she never reaches out to Thoros or contacts her order in Essos about Stannis. If she's as firm in her beliefs about Stannis as she claims to be, you'd think she'd do those things. That she doesn't is just...strange. PS- In the name of what we all think she'll do to Shireen, it's my sincerest hope that Melisandre will be outsmarted and killed by her next intended victim in Hansel and Gretel fashion. Don't know how realistic that is but my fingers are crossed nonetheless.
Just a thought, if you can't find the Savior make one your self. Lightbringer is a sword that holds the darkness at bay. He may never have to use the sword in combat if by the power of a false light they can hold the wall. The sword rallies men to Stannis those men fight for Stannis, the wall holds.
She's blinded by faith. Look through history where people continue believing something even after evidence mounts. She's being overly stubborn because admitting she's wrong would be to painful.
I've always assumed Mel and Stannis are using a phony Lightbringer as a prop to draw people to Stannis' cause, with the belief that either the sword is merely symbolic, or that the true Lightbringer will come into Stannis' hands at some future point. She may even have a plan on how to recreate/forge Lightbringer (Nissa Nissa Part Deux) that she hasn't shared with Stannis yet, knowing he'd have to be desperate to agree to it.
Melisandre believes in the visions she sees but she misinterprets them. When she asks Rhollor to show her Azor Ahai and all she sees is Snow she doesn't make the connection that Rhollor is showing her Azor Ahai but its not Stannis. She doesn't understand why she's not seeing Stannis.
As far as the mob thing goes in beauty and the beast Gaston gets almost the whole town on board with let’s go kill the beast pretty fast. Fear of the other gets people to throw logic out the window
"The most harm of all is done when power is in the hands of people who are absolutely persuaded of the purity of their instincts-- and the purity of their intentions. " There are no limits to the atrocities we might commit, if we are truly convinced it is for the greater good. Stannis and the Red woman is a good example there, at least in the show version.
Hey Dave and Mary Ellen, thanks for sharing! I've been a fan of your channel for quite some time and have thoroughly enjoyed your videos. I think I've seen pretty much all your videos by now with the exception of your earlier Live Q&As, since I only discovered your channel around 3, 4 years ago. I think you've done by far the best analysis of the books.
I think probably it’s twofold. First, she knows as much as we do about lightbringer. For all she knows it was a fake. She is creating the trappings of power. Second, she needed a catalyst and figured she’d find Lightbringer along the way. Ie, fake it till you make it.
Okay.... been watching a bunch of your videos... and I love your thought process. You reveal some perspectives I completely missed. I love the way you solved Qaithe's riddle.... with the sun rising in the west, etc. Amazing.... and I can't believe I missed all of that. Hopefully, I can share one mystery of the world that few people even know about. You said ALL light makes heat... and that simply isn't true. We've known for a long time that moonlight has the opposite effect.... strangely.... mysteriously.... If you stand in sunlight you are warmer than when you stand in it's shadow. Moonlight is different and I have yet to find anyone who has puzzled it out. When you stand in moonlight you are cooler than when you stand in it's shade. So the moon absorbs all the heat and as it reflects the light it somehow transforms the light into something that cools rather than warms. It is known.... but not widely known. I don't know if this will help you as you puzzle things out.... but I thought you might find it useful. I, for one, would LOVE for our brightest minds to figure out how and why this happens... but nobody seems to be working on getting the answer to this mystery.
I have very mixed feelings on Melisandre, on the one hand she is helping stannis baratheon, who is the only king who has gone north to deal with the others. On the other hand, if she hadn't given birth to that shadow baby Renly would have defeated the Lannisters and he would have most of the realm.
@@dustinsmith2021 renly had 16 k men on stormsend , 80 k troops in the reach under the command of Randly tarly and the redwayne fleet ( 200 warships) .
@@marcostargaryen4181 but renly was attacking at dawn with only his horse and he was riding into the sun. We’ll never know for sure but stannis had to have a plan.
In the infamous parlay, Renly offered Stannis a peach. Peaches can represent salvation. So I interpreted the scenario as some how, some way, Renly would've come to Stannis's aid against the Lannisters. But as we know Melisandre interfered so it never happened. In fact that subterfuge caused the exact opposite thing to happen. It's actually sad.
Its only a hypothetical, but if Renly had won, wouldn't it be likely he would make peace with the North, and that way he, or Rob, could have sent forces to the wall?
Love, and seriously missed the theory videos. Any plans to go and re-do any old ones you no longer believe / think you've found new evidence for / condense them etc etc?
I watched the show and loved it until the end .. About a year ago I started listing to the David reads a song of ice and fire channel and now I’ve herd all the books and man they put the show to shame !! I can’t stop thinking about that world and your videos are great! 😊
I've thought about this myself and I believe Melissandre intends to make Stannis Azor Ahai. As you mentioned, all the other followers of R'hllor are running about looking for Azor Ahai. Maybe Melissandre isn't willing to wait. After all, the hour is growing late. The AotD are already powerful, and growing with each dead Wildling or Knight's Watchman, and she's decided that if Azor Ahai won't just fall into their laps, she has to pull up her big girl pants and forge Azor Ahai like the previous Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer. She finds a man who has the right name, a potential claim to the Iron Throne, and is grooming him to fulfill the prophesy. The flame without heat is 'fake it till you make it'. I will generate belief, both in Stannis and his men, and that belief might tip the scales for Stannis to become the hero. It's like Varys pointed out, about power residing where men believe it resides. She's attempting to gin up enough belief to make Stannis the real Azor Ahai. That would explain why she's so certain in her POV chapter. Stannis is Azor Ahai, because she's made him Azor Ahai and won't rest until he fulfills the prophesy.
Oh cool we can see some of the podcasts. I do like hearing the extra thoughts on a character overall. Mel i just want to see what else she can do in the future as the show couldn't do anyone justice and i know George has big plans for her and the rhollor supporters.
Melisandre, in this situation, reminds me of police officers who "massage" the evidence without feeling like they've done something wrong. They don't feel like they're FRAMING anyone. They just feel like they already know what happened. They "know" who committed the crime, and they are helping shape the evidence to fit that theory.
This is called confirmation bias. I see it people’s politics all the time. Even when you throw facts in their face to refute their arguments, they look for their “own facts” to counter. It’s embarrassing really.
She may be using the fake sword for the time being until Stannis acquires the real lightbringer as a way to rally the men. When she asks to see azor ahai she may be try find the sword. Side note Stannis has like 3 of the funniest lines of the series. He reminds me of Christian Bale character from The Prestige. He hides his true self at all times. For the parts of fanatically believing in things, the best example I've ever seen was an episode of The Leftovers called Crazy White fella Thinking. It summarizes with two characters sitting at a table together telling each other of the journeys that brought them there. One was an old woman who believed that God was sending her on a mission to test her faith, she killeda man because she thought he would come back to life. The other character is an old man who has been collecting something to try to prevent an apocalyptic flood. At the end of their conversation instead of realizing they were both chasing crazy stories, they decide to help each other with their stories. My take away was that the stories people tell themselves can overtake even 5he most reasonable people.
So, and I could be wrong, I think Melisandre has convinced herself of Stannis's legitimacy even when the evidence shows he isn't it. She isn't above tricks to make others believe her position about Stannis as she has a whole trunk dedicated to convincing people of her powers and purpose. I think Melisandre like every other character in this serious who is solving a mystery is so sure they are right in their conclusions they never consider they are wrong. Ned thinks the Lanisters solely responsible for Jon Arryn's death but the readers discover Lysa and Pyter are more responsible - it's a mistake that has a lot of fall out. Catelyn makes the same jump to conclusion and tons of people die because she takes Tyrion prisoner. Same with the Tansy comment Catelyn thinks is her sister's nickname but is a main ingredient in the moon tea which forced Lysa to loose her first child. The sword is a prop, Melisandre believes that the person not the weapon is important and she is so focused on her conclusion that she cannot and will not see anyone else as being important or the thing she is searching for.
To me, it seems like Melisandre actually wants Stannis to be AA, and even if she is proved wrong she will still side with him and that might be her mistake in TWOW. We don't rly know why she decided Stannis was AA in the first time, but she is not an idiot, i don't think just seeing Dragonstone in a vision would be like, ok that mean AA is 100% Stannis, i think she must have seen something else or she chosed him for another reason. The things: -We know Lightbringer is glamoured, so she did that on purpose to make Stannis match the prophecy. -When she is looking for Stannis as AA in the fire, and she sees Snow (i clearly think that mean she sees Jon Snow) she does not think at all that she could be wrong, it does not puzzle her either, she is just annoyed that she can't find Stannis. -All the POVs characters thinks she is evil and using Stannis (and probably a lot of the readers thought or think that too); but Martin said Melisandre is one of his most misunderstood character, and when we read her POV chapter we know that she truly believe in Stannis and thinks she is doing what is right to save the world from the darkness, i think Martin want to show us that she is defo on the good side; but he also said that she had her own agenda (which could explain why she does not seem to have contact with the red temple or other priests) but that own agenda of her, like i said before, seems to be on the good side which make it even more mysterious. -The relation between Stannis and Melisandre seems to go beyond duty, there are a lot of hints suggesting that, mostly the bed phrase in her POV chapter but not only; also in her POV chapter, she refers to stannis one time as "her champion", not the lords/r'hllor chosen/champion, it seems interesting to me, it might just be a nice wording or it actually means something more, that stannis and not someone else is part of her personal agenda. So i think she wants him to be AA, why ?, i don't know, that's the question, maybe it's linked to her past, we know it's quite dark and it will probably get expanded in TWOW. I also have a theory that actually AA is not a pre-defined person, but that there are in fact multiple candidates who could accomplish the prophecy and become AA by doing it and Melisandre has chosen Stannis; but again same question, why him ?
This is either fanaticism taken to the extreme / self-suggestion, or someone has manipulated her mind to the point she doesn't even know what she's doing anymore. Unless this is an error from Martin's part, which I find hard to believe.
She wanted to believe that it's Stannis, but she her self said she's having trouble knowing the truth behind her visions. And that she makes mistake. She wants to believe it's Stannis so much that she blind to the fact that Stannis was just the ship to bring her to the actual azor ahai
Once people have invested in something so deeply, they have a hard time seeing the truth. We see this happening in the real world right now. Denial is a helluva drug!
I think.....Mel is putting the cart before the horse because that's what the circumstances call for. Stannis is clearly wrapped up in matters of the throne that he can't really ignore. Plus being King would grease the c wheel of forming an army to fight the dead. So Mel's glamouring swords and pomp is to get people motivated. I don't think she's oblivious to Stannis' own doubt of betting Azhor Ahai. But i think she's trying to prod him along to his moment of becoming/realizing he is the prince that was promised. Wether or not her beliefs are going to come to pass, that is the logic she's working under. Dunno if you're dbz fans but I'd compare this to the cell saga, where Goku believed so hard his son would the one who could beat Cell. Despite everyone, even his son, not believing he could; Goku was confident that once in the moment, in the midst of the fight, his son's true power would reveal itself. As well...if Mel's serious about bringing forth lightbrinber, wouldn't she be looking for someone to play the role of Nissa nissa? If i were in her shoes, id be whispering in tree v ear of the woman that genuinely loved Stannis, and be willing to sacrifice themself in order to forge lightbringer
I always figured the break between Melisandre and the rest of the priests was the level of casualty of their faith. Being a religious person myself, you see different levels of belief amongst religious people. You got those who go to church abd do the bits, but mostly because it's what's expected. They might actually believe, they might not, but they go through the motions of belief regardless. I think this makes you the majority of the Lord of Light believers. Then you got people with a bit more faith. They do believe that their religion is real and actively make it part of their lives. Not zealous, but set on their path. Then you get those who KNOW they are right, there is no other way. This is Melisandre. She KNOWS her God is real, his foe is real, and that she needs to do something about it. And in no way does this make her irrational because it's the truth to her. I always figured she had a vision so compelling abd frightening that she was convinced of this truth and then went to bring it about. And Stannis? I think that this same vision brought her to him to eventually take her to the real savior, but she doesn't know that yet. The sword is her way of checking boxes to make other people believe. I think she believes he will get the flaming sword eventually, but no.one will back him without the glamor. It's her way of bringing followers.
A glamor is like an illusion. Like in Dunk and Egg the Mystery Knight, when Dunk is looking at, out the corner of his eye, Maynard Plum (glamoured Bloodraven) his face shifts and Dunk can’t really tell the details but can’t see through it either. So the sword is illusion. Sure the color shifts on the sword but produces no heat. It’s a color show.
guys do you think in dani's house of the undead vision the woman's name Rhaeghar says before dying was Melisandra? it was neither lyanna or elia, the name was also not valyrian or westerosi, Rhaeghar suddenly became a prophetic man just like Stannis, and Stannis learned everything from Melisandra. Maybe her search for the promised prince started way before Stannis?
I don’t think so. While it’s obviously possible, I’ve never seen anything that indicates that Mel was in Westeros when Rhaegar was still alive. Interesting thought though
I wonder if she created this lightbringer as a place holder? We know Mel is way older than she looks, and been around. Maybe this lightbringer is just another trapping of power to help gather men to Stannis and she thinks she will find or make the real lightbringer and switch it out?
Mel doesn’t believe Stannis is Azor Ahai because he has a fake lightbringer. She believes he is Azor Ahai that has not yet found lightbringer. She believes the sword will bring people to him, so she made a fake one as a placeholder until he finds, or forges the real one.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand she believes he is the one, but not because he has the sword. She believes he has not yet come into his sword, so she made him a glamour so others will believe as she does and follow him. She knows the sword is fake, but she believes the man is real.
Because she’s also trying to get him to believe. You said yourself, he views her as a tool in his bag. A means to an end. If she can make him believe, the real sword will come in time. If she can make others believe, then his following will increase, and preparation for the long night will be faster and easier. By the way, since we are having a bit of a conversation, I must say that your videos and theories have been critical to my ASOIAF obsession. You guys are amazing. Your channel is where I learned what R+L=J means, and also, where I became a N+A=J believer. I love your logic, and bottom line is, while I can’t completely discount R+L=J, I think the story has more potential if N+A=J. It makes more sense to me, and I think it makes more sense for Jon’s arc. I was first introduced to ASOIAF via the show. I’ve now read the books 3 times and watched many hours of TH-cam content from many channels. To @The Order of the Green Hand, I say, well done!
Melisandre is fodder for the ongoing discussion of whether the ends justify the means. Someday we'll figure out that the means must be justified all by themselves.
Mary Ellen you said in our world there was no long night. But i think i remember hearing theories about a time of prolonged darkness. It might have been in Zechariah Sitchins Earth Chronichles
Maybe Stannis' sword will become light bringer after some certain events. Or maybe Stannis didn't receive yet real sword and this is just to give him visible authority to gather living against long night. Maybe when Long Night come Stannis' glamoured sword maybe become active. Original Lightbringer description that Maester Aemon give said that its fire burned scabbard so I would imagine what's good sword that cannot be turned off. No one will be able to carry it before battle. There must be some magical on/off switch
I think, that there are many ways to understand prophecies. Sometimes, you are MAKING them, come true. Also, for example, as jewish guy, I know there is a specific prey to say when you see a geniouse man. It translated something like "Blessed God For Gifting his wisdom to flash and blood" so even your skills and abilities could be considered a miracle
I'm rereading chapters about Stannis. Last night I read the Melisandre chapter where they burn the 7 and pull the sword out. It was a false ritual. What made it false was the lack of sacrifice. Stannis is not devoted to the Faith of the Seven. Neither the sword nor Stannis's hands nor his cape were unharmed from the fire. Perhaps Melissandre knows that leading Stannis to become King will bring her to Azhor Ahai.
Yeah belief is very strong.. I watched unsolved mysteries and there was a guy that really believed in voodoo and some guy cursed him and he started dying went to hospital they didn't know what was wrong with him but he was dying until they heard from him that he was cursed. The Dr. Didnt believe in that but they had a ritual at night to undo this curse and when it was done the guy started getting better and got to full health.. belief is very powerful if you think you're dying that strongly you can die.. I believe in that
In one of the books all of Melisandres powders in her gown are described. She knows that tricking and fooling people is an important skill. She could be using the fake Lightbringer merely as a symbol representing Lightbringer not insisting it is the same original sword from legend.
Maybe she believes Stannis, who is not Azor Ahai, will become Azor Ahai and the sword, now only glamoured for practical reasons, will become Light Bringer truly once he kills Shireen with it (possibly while she burns at the stake... fire and blood).
With the mob mentality I see that its mostly people who want to belong to a bigger group feeling isolated as a huge cause of it. Mel honesty did do that with stannis's family building up as time went on regardless of being right or night. For wanting it to be stannis it could be how far Mel wants to go and seeing how great he is in all forms of war and political situations it could have warped her to believe the lie she made to be the truth.
Pausing at 3:50 I wonder if her "own agenda," the disconnect between her and the red temple in the search for AA, and her thinking of Stannis as the real deal despite evidence to the contrary comes down to Mel having decided to MAKE an AA, rather than wait for one. She believes he is because she believes that much in her own power. Whether that is mystical power or the power to manipulate perceptions is a secondary question.
Did Mel know Stannis would lose the Battle of the Blackwater by means of fire? I mean it was friken fire that essentially cost him what could’ve been a swift victory, before the Lion & the Rose showed up, Stannis would’ve had Queen Cersei, King Joffrey & Prince Tonmen in his custody & the game would’ve been over. What do you think Tywin would’ve done then, attack anyways or discuss terms to save his King, daughter & “grandchildren”?
I think she just thinks westeros needs to build up an army to combat the long night, and Stannis is her best shot at doing that as the most obvious candidate for the throne who after taking it can then consolidate his power and get all seven kingdoms behind him. She has doubts about him being AA but doesn't necessarily need him to be as long as she can convince others he is, at least until the real AA comes along if he isn't.
I'm a bit late for the party but here is the thing. First let's take the sword issue. Lets say she totally believes that she found azor ahai. (Hope I spelled that correctly) why would she need the sword? She'd trust that he is the one and The sword is just something that he'll need in the future. So until he makes the great sacrifice required to get the sword she'll use a prop to fool the masses. Same logic she uses when she keeps the guards. It's for show and she thinks it's necessary. Doesn't really need to be the real deal if it helps sway the opinion of the masses. Now about the fanatic part. Well, talking from experience from knowing real ass fanatics. Your problem is that you think this logically. It's not logical at all. So here she is following azor ahai. Giving him a fake sword and shit, it's useless but here is the thing. The prophecy is clear (I know it isn't but stay with me) it clearly says that he'll be the saviour or whatever. So why would she need to worry? She'll see him ripped to pieces and think that he'll rise again. That this is all part of his journey by the will of the lord of light. So the logic would be this. It's too bad he doesn't have the sword yet but it's beyond doubt that he'll have it eventually, let's make a show for the people who are poor and week and don't see the light to bring them to the mercy and justice of our lord under the rule of his chosen one while we wait. And when he gets the real deal people would belief beyond a doubt then. And whatever danger is there facing Stannis. It's pointless since the will of the lord of light will come through regardless. If you know someone is gonna die in 5 years for sure. By time travel let's say then will you worry about them if you see them facing certain death? And that's what a fanatic is like. They know. They know beyond reason or doubt. Even if worse comes to worst. What they know will come to be. Even if nothing I'm the world could make it so because in their mind, it already is.
I think George is trying to represent a condition called compartmentalisation, where two irreconcilable beliefs are held by one functioning personality. It’s common in popular stage mediums/psychics (which Mel is sort of, except her powers are real) and people who have suffered childhood trauma (which Mel has). The Wikipedia article on it is interesting if you read it with Mel in mind. The fakery she employs in supporting the ‘true’ Ahai is not a problem to her. Her mind sort of blanks the little details out.
I think that Mel believes that the ends justify the means... She has to know the sword is a fake, but also knows that it is a part of lore and becomes important to many... From Great Lords to Smallfolk... She’s a fanatic, so bending the truth, to push Stannis as AH is a price she is willing to pay. If Stannis is the one to unite the North and the rest of the Kingdom to fight against the Others... It doesn’t matter if the sword is real or not, only that most people look at it as holding significants.. Even if Stannis dies, as long as she was able to complete her goals bf that time... Then things are good. Stannis could die in the first encounter with the Others... But as long as all the kingdoms have come together and are fighting for the Light, it doesn’t matter. She then can make Stannis a martyr... Someone willing to die for. Could be wrong... But I think she knows that time is becoming limited and she had to pull the trigger on who she thought was AH. Stannis fits some, not all... But he will do for now, bc he has too... She believes it, because she has too. She can rewrite what she sees in the flames afterward, for now... She has to get things moving.
Mel glamours the sword because she believes Stanis is Azor. She's using the glamour temporarily create the sword fully expecting R'hllor to provide Lightbringer later. She even comments how the glamour is a temporary cheap trick
Maybe the original Lightbringer was a dragon. Xaros Xhoan Daxos tells Dany that, as her dragons grow, they become "a flaming sword above the world," and in the Book of Revelations, Lucifer (which means... something) takes the form of a red dragon. And the larva-things that infested Aerea were white in color. So if dragons are flaming swords, then Azor Ahai putting one of the larva into Nissa Nissa and having it grow into a fire-breathing red dragon is symbolically the same as stabbing her with a white-hot sword and tempering it into a fiery red sword. Has Mel heard about Dany yet? If not, she might defect once she does; if so, then she clearly doesn't believe my theory.
News of Dany probably haven't gotten to the wall yet, and with the old maester outside the picture, who would actually bring them news? They were pretty much isolated on Dragonstone before going to the wall. Really really good point, she most likely doesn't know about Dany
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 Looking back, you are probably right, as Aemon and Sam learn about Dany from Quhuru Mo in Braavos, after they leave the Wall. If Mel has heard about Dany, it seems like Tycho Nestoris would need to be the one to tell her, and why would he? It would only encourage her to defect from Stannis, who is the Iron Bank's preferred claimant to the Iron Throne
How is Mel living with fucking up the sword.... Sunk Cost Fallacy? She sees the sword is broken, all eyes on her. Stannis most likely banning or killing her if this is not working. So she glamours it and burries that memory very deep. Is there any glimpse of memory blockade in her POV chapter? Like the glimpse of a thought appearing and immediatly burrying it? That's usually how Sunk Cost Fallacy works until the breaking point.
In my opinion. Melisandre is misreading the flames about Stannis because there's no other prominent candidate to be the prince that was promised, as of yet. Or, she glamoured the sword and trying to convince people to follow Stannis to help The Others.
I wonder if Mellisandre see's herself as someone who can handle the truth and that for her, the sword lighting up (or at least at this point) is not necessary, but the people need the myth to act right towards Stanis. Stanis could be Azor Ahai and the sword be fake. Or, the ordinary (for now) sword could come to be true at a moment of truth to come.
Maybe she thinks that lightbringer are the dragons (but stannis needs to sacrifice king"s blood to use it) and the lightbringer is just to fool the followers just like her glamours until he gets the real thing
I think the point you're catching on is a non-issue because she never specifically says that she's looking for Stannis she says she's looking for azora high and all she sees is snow, that could be because she knows Stannis isn't really his or a high and this is our first POV from her, she could be constantly wondering and trying to figure out who the real azora high for all we know.
In my opinion, Mel is like a student the night before a big project is due. Fuck, the others are coming, she's scrambling around to find the Prince that was promised, finds a dude who 90% fits tbe bill, and is trying to rough out the edges so that it's good enough.
Just a thought about Stannis wielding 'Lightbringer': Richard the Lionheart named every sword he wielded 'Excalibur'. He knew none of these weapons were King Arthur's, it was more about what the sword meant that gave it power.
I think that has a lot of storytelling power especially on ASOIAF where names and birthright are major themes, hence the whole Stannis vs his own “nephew” who actually doesn’t SHARE HIS NAME (or shouldn’t share his name is a better phrase)
This. In her mind, it is Lightbringer because she gives it the enchantment and the name to make it so. It's her trying to make prophecy come to pass in the manner that she believes it should either out of desperation, arrogance, or both.
I swear I love how obsessed you guys are. I"m legit becoming a fanatic. The way you talk about asoiaf gets me so fucking hyped.
I haven't reread the books in years but I still come to watch your videos cause it blows my mind how you guys change my perspective on things and I love it.
thank you !!!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I'm a huge fan! I love you guys! Pls don't stop with this amazing content!
George just needs to finish them so we can finish this speculation
My theory has always been that Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in an attempt to turn his sword into the real lightbringer (as she's the only person he actually loves). I think Mel gave him the fake sword to bide time until she could convince him to do what needs to be done (in her opinion). I also think being a shadowbinder has given her an elevated opinion of her importance, so she feels her choice of Stannis HAS to be right and that's why she's being so stubborn.
Maybe he'll sacrifice Davos. Maybe Davos will willingly sacrifice himself. It'll be kind of the gender subversion and Davos seems like someone Stannis loves, and Davos seems thematically related to the story of Lightbringer, too.
Stannis believes in older laws, it is why he chose his duty to Robert over Aerys. He would never sacrifice his daughter ( f*ck Dumb and Dumber) for public support or a magical sword, otherwise what is he fighting for? He can't say duty or honor or his family or even for what's right, plus no one would follow a kinslayer.
Podcast. I like this. I dont like hiding in the comments of the Lives. Now I can give a thought.
Where's the difference?
She may believe Stannis is AA, but not that sword is required. She just made one to convince common folk of what she believes.
Exactly.
I see that as her speeding it up. She believes he will make a sword with a great sacrifice. But in order to have more people follow Stannis, they need to make a show.
it make sense to me
Omg 😆 welcome back ! We missed theories, only Thursday’s nights isn’t enough!
Thank you so much !
What great treat ! 💚🤚🏻💚
As per @Ussurin and @Lane Stapp, the logical conclusion of a) Melissandre understands politics and b) Melissandre believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai Reborn is that she knows the sword is not the real deal, but she needs to declare it 'Lightbringer' and created a spectacle to convince people to follow Stannis.
In the legend, Azor Ahai forged the sword and tempered it in the heart of his wife, and her spirit went into the blade to light it up; Melissandre's aim might be to get Stannis to a place where he would sacrifice his wife, and Selyse would be prepared to sacrifice herself.
I think that she once did believe that Stannis was Azor Ahai, but she eventually decided that he was not Azor Ahai, but rather that he was going to lead her to Azor Ahai. It always struck me odd that in her chapter she said something to the effect "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and Rhillor only shows me Snow." Why would she be looking for Azor Ahai if she followed his ass to the Wall? So, I think by her chapter she realizes that Stannis isn't it.
I guess I view Melisandre as someone who had a powerful vision of Stannis and interpreted it as him being Azor Ahai. Then, the Battle of Blackwater probably shook her faith in that. In the aftermath of that sometime she went from Stannis = Azor Ahai to Stannis will lead her to Azor Ahai. And, now, Rhillor might be showing her that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai (or will lead her to Azor Ahai), but she's dismissing it at the moment.
But, I could be completely wrong!
I think you made really great points and I tend to agree with you there!
She was looking for a glimpse of Stannis and was frustrated by the fact that she only sees snow though. I’m going to go look at it to make sure that’s what happened there but that’s how I remember it
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Snow is capitalised (if my memory serves), so it's likely she sees Jon rather than actual snow?
@@JohnTCampbell1986 I think the capitalized Snow is meant as a hint to the reader. If she actually saw Jon, I would assume she’d say Lord Snow or Jon Snow instead of just Snow.
Is it possible that, because of magic being reborn, that Mel's zealotry is so deep that she is glamoring the sword without knowing it?
As though her subconscious is working the magic and her foremind is able to ignore it?
Love this video as always. Your take on Stannis honestly made me like him more. I’m always so distracted by disliking the fanaticism that I’ve never really looked at Stannis for the man he is underneath.
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Well done guys. Small wonder GRRM says Melisandre is the most misunderstood character in the story. With inconsistencies like this how can he blame us? Apart from trying to figure out who or what she is, something that puzzles me about Mel is why she never reaches out to Thoros or contacts her order in Essos about Stannis. If she's as firm in her beliefs about Stannis as she claims to be, you'd think she'd do those things. That she doesn't is just...strange.
PS- In the name of what we all think she'll do to Shireen, it's my sincerest hope that Melisandre will be outsmarted and killed by her next intended victim in Hansel and Gretel fashion. Don't know how realistic that is but my fingers are crossed nonetheless.
She always capitalizes Snow too when she talks about seeing AA.
Just a thought, if you can't find the Savior make one your self. Lightbringer is a sword that holds the darkness at bay. He may never have to use the sword in combat if by the power of a false light they can hold the wall. The sword rallies men to Stannis those men fight for Stannis, the wall holds.
She's blinded by faith. Look through history where people continue believing something even after evidence mounts. She's being overly stubborn because admitting she's wrong would be to painful.
"War is a continuation of politics" Von Clausewitz
I really love this format. It’s like an insight in to your video making process. Thanks Dave and Mary Ellen.
Didn't expect this notification ! 💪
Could she playing for time with Light bringer? She says she needs kings blood to wake dragons from stone.
Love ur videos
I've always assumed Mel and Stannis are using a phony Lightbringer as a prop to draw people to Stannis' cause, with the belief that either the sword is merely symbolic, or that the true Lightbringer will come into Stannis' hands at some future point. She may even have a plan on how to recreate/forge Lightbringer (Nissa Nissa Part Deux) that she hasn't shared with Stannis yet, knowing he'd have to be desperate to agree to it.
Melisandre believes in the visions she sees but she misinterprets them. When she asks Rhollor to show her Azor Ahai and all she sees is Snow she doesn't make the connection that Rhollor is showing her Azor Ahai but its not Stannis. She doesn't understand why she's not seeing Stannis.
And Snow is capitalized
@@Namaste19. super big hint there
As far as the mob thing goes in beauty and the beast Gaston gets almost the whole town on board with let’s go kill the beast pretty fast. Fear of the other gets people to throw logic out the window
"The most harm of all is done when power is in the hands of people who are absolutely persuaded of the purity of their instincts-- and the purity of their intentions. "
There are no limits to the atrocities we might commit, if we are truly convinced it is for the greater good. Stannis and the Red woman is a good example there, at least in the show version.
Hey Dave and Mary Ellen, thanks for sharing! I've been a fan of your channel for quite some time and have thoroughly enjoyed your videos. I think I've seen pretty much all your videos by now with the exception of your earlier Live Q&As, since I only discovered your channel around 3, 4 years ago. I think you've done by far the best analysis of the books.
God you're my fav got channel i swear. I love yall
I think probably it’s twofold. First, she knows as much as we do about lightbringer. For all she knows it was a fake. She is creating the trappings of power. Second, she needed a catalyst and figured she’d find Lightbringer along the way. Ie, fake it till you make it.
Okay.... been watching a bunch of your videos... and I love your thought process. You reveal some perspectives I completely missed. I love the way you solved Qaithe's riddle.... with the sun rising in the west, etc. Amazing.... and I can't believe I missed all of that. Hopefully, I can share one mystery of the world that few people even know about. You said ALL light makes heat... and that simply isn't true. We've known for a long time that moonlight has the opposite effect.... strangely.... mysteriously.... If you stand in sunlight you are warmer than when you stand in it's shadow. Moonlight is different and I have yet to find anyone who has puzzled it out. When you stand in moonlight you are cooler than when you stand in it's shade. So the moon absorbs all the heat and as it reflects the light it somehow transforms the light into something that cools rather than warms. It is known.... but not widely known. I don't know if this will help you as you puzzle things out.... but I thought you might find it useful. I, for one, would LOVE for our brightest minds to figure out how and why this happens... but nobody seems to be working on getting the answer to this mystery.
I have very mixed feelings on Melisandre, on the one hand she is helping stannis baratheon, who is the only king who has gone north to deal with the others. On the other hand, if she hadn't given birth to that shadow baby Renly would have defeated the Lannisters and he would have most of the realm.
Stannis would have beat renly.
@@dustinsmith2021 renly had 16 k men on stormsend , 80 k troops in the reach under the command of Randly tarly and the redwayne fleet ( 200 warships) .
@@marcostargaryen4181 but renly was attacking at dawn with only his horse and he was riding into the sun. We’ll never know for sure but stannis had to have a plan.
In the infamous parlay, Renly offered Stannis a peach. Peaches can represent salvation. So I interpreted the scenario as some how, some way, Renly would've come to Stannis's aid against the Lannisters. But as we know Melisandre interfered so it never happened. In fact that subterfuge caused the exact opposite thing to happen. It's actually sad.
Its only a hypothetical, but if Renly had won, wouldn't it be likely he would make peace with the North, and that way he, or Rob, could have sent forces to the wall?
Love, and seriously missed the theory videos. Any plans to go and re-do any old ones you no longer believe / think you've found new evidence for / condense them etc etc?
I watched the show and loved it until the end ..
About a year ago I started listing to the David reads a song of ice and fire channel and now I’ve herd all the books and man they put the show to shame !!
I can’t stop thinking about that world and your videos are great!
😊
I've thought about this myself and I believe Melissandre intends to make Stannis Azor Ahai. As you mentioned, all the other followers of R'hllor are running about looking for Azor Ahai. Maybe Melissandre isn't willing to wait. After all, the hour is growing late. The AotD are already powerful, and growing with each dead Wildling or Knight's Watchman, and she's decided that if Azor Ahai won't just fall into their laps, she has to pull up her big girl pants and forge Azor Ahai like the previous Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer. She finds a man who has the right name, a potential claim to the Iron Throne, and is grooming him to fulfill the prophesy. The flame without heat is 'fake it till you make it'. I will generate belief, both in Stannis and his men, and that belief might tip the scales for Stannis to become the hero. It's like Varys pointed out, about power residing where men believe it resides. She's attempting to gin up enough belief to make Stannis the real Azor Ahai. That would explain why she's so certain in her POV chapter. Stannis is Azor Ahai, because she's made him Azor Ahai and won't rest until he fulfills the prophesy.
Oh cool we can see some of the podcasts. I do like hearing the extra thoughts on a character overall.
Mel i just want to see what else she can do in the future as the show couldn't do anyone justice and i know George has big plans for her and the rhollor supporters.
Melisandre, in this situation, reminds me of police officers who "massage" the evidence without feeling like they've done something wrong.
They don't feel like they're FRAMING anyone. They just feel like they already know what happened. They "know" who committed the crime, and they are helping shape the evidence to fit that theory.
This is called confirmation bias. I see it people’s politics all the time. Even when you throw facts in their face to refute their arguments, they look for their “own facts” to counter. It’s embarrassing really.
@@goatmc could your "facts" be a form of confirmation bias?
She may be using the fake sword for the time being until Stannis acquires the real lightbringer as a way to rally the men. When she asks to see azor ahai she may be try find the sword.
Side note Stannis has like 3 of the funniest lines of the series. He reminds me of Christian Bale character from The Prestige. He hides his true self at all times.
For the parts of fanatically believing in things, the best example I've ever seen was an episode of The Leftovers called Crazy White fella Thinking. It summarizes with two characters sitting at a table together telling each other of the journeys that brought them there. One was an old woman who believed that God was sending her on a mission to test her faith, she killeda man because she thought he would come back to life. The other character is an old man who has been collecting something to try to prevent an apocalyptic flood. At the end of their conversation instead of realizing they were both chasing crazy stories, they decide to help each other with their stories. My take away was that the stories people tell themselves can overtake even 5he most reasonable people.
So, and I could be wrong, I think Melisandre has convinced herself of Stannis's legitimacy even when the evidence shows he isn't it. She isn't above tricks to make others believe her position about Stannis as she has a whole trunk dedicated to convincing people of her powers and purpose. I think Melisandre like every other character in this serious who is solving a mystery is so sure they are right in their conclusions they never consider they are wrong. Ned thinks the Lanisters solely responsible for Jon Arryn's death but the readers discover Lysa and Pyter are more responsible - it's a mistake that has a lot of fall out. Catelyn makes the same jump to conclusion and tons of people die because she takes Tyrion prisoner. Same with the Tansy comment Catelyn thinks is her sister's nickname but is a main ingredient in the moon tea which forced Lysa to loose her first child. The sword is a prop, Melisandre believes that the person not the weapon is important and she is so focused on her conclusion that she cannot and will not see anyone else as being important or the thing she is searching for.
Wizards First Rule mentioned 🧙♂️ Great stuff guys
To me, it seems like Melisandre actually wants Stannis to be AA, and even if she is proved wrong she will still side with him and that might be her mistake in TWOW.
We don't rly know why she decided Stannis was AA in the first time, but she is not an idiot, i don't think just seeing Dragonstone in a vision would be like, ok that mean AA is 100% Stannis, i think she must have seen something else or she chosed him for another reason.
The things:
-We know Lightbringer is glamoured, so she did that on purpose to make Stannis match the prophecy.
-When she is looking for Stannis as AA in the fire, and she sees Snow (i clearly think that mean she sees Jon Snow) she does not think at all that she could be wrong, it does not puzzle her either, she is just annoyed that she can't find Stannis.
-All the POVs characters thinks she is evil and using Stannis (and probably a lot of the readers thought or think that too); but Martin said Melisandre is one of his most misunderstood character, and when we read her POV chapter we know that she truly believe in Stannis and thinks she is doing what is right to save the world from the darkness, i think Martin want to show us that she is defo on the good side; but he also said that she had her own agenda (which could explain why she does not seem to have contact with the red temple or other priests) but that own agenda of her, like i said before, seems to be on the good side which make it even more mysterious.
-The relation between Stannis and Melisandre seems to go beyond duty, there are a lot of hints suggesting that, mostly the bed phrase in her POV chapter but not only; also in her POV chapter, she refers to stannis one time as "her champion", not the lords/r'hllor chosen/champion, it seems interesting to me, it might just be a nice wording or it actually means something more, that stannis and not someone else is part of her personal agenda.
So i think she wants him to be AA, why ?, i don't know, that's the question, maybe it's linked to her past, we know it's quite dark and it will probably get expanded in TWOW.
I also have a theory that actually AA is not a pre-defined person, but that there are in fact multiple candidates who could accomplish the prophecy and become AA by doing it and Melisandre has chosen Stannis; but again same question, why him ?
Mel “Fake it till you make it!”
Greenseer Mel! Hahah :) awesome
This is either fanaticism taken to the extreme / self-suggestion, or someone has manipulated her mind to the point she doesn't even know what she's doing anymore. Unless this is an error from Martin's part, which I find hard to believe.
Haahahahah!! “Sounds like you all suck at this [making sense of prophecy and signs in the flames]” .. DIED!! 😂
Wow I ❤️ this channel! Lol
Wish I made the podcast..
Thank you two for all the hard work! You guys are great!!
Excellent conversation!
I like these short videos. Please make more of them.
She wanted to believe that it's Stannis, but she her self said she's having trouble knowing the truth behind her visions. And that she makes mistake.
She wants to believe it's Stannis so much that she blind to the fact that Stannis was just the ship to bring her to the actual azor ahai
Once people have invested in something so deeply, they have a hard time seeing the truth. We see this happening in the real world right now. Denial is a helluva drug!
Love the podcast format!!!!!!
And, back we are!
I think.....Mel is putting the cart before the horse because that's what the circumstances call for. Stannis is clearly wrapped up in matters of the throne that he can't really ignore. Plus being King would grease the c wheel of forming an army to fight the dead. So Mel's glamouring swords and pomp is to get people motivated.
I don't think she's oblivious to Stannis' own doubt of betting Azhor Ahai. But i think she's trying to prod him along to his moment of becoming/realizing he is the prince that was promised.
Wether or not her beliefs are going to come to pass, that is the logic she's working under.
Dunno if you're dbz fans but I'd compare this to the cell saga, where Goku believed so hard his son would the one who could beat Cell. Despite everyone, even his son, not believing he could; Goku was confident that once in the moment, in the midst of the fight, his son's true power would reveal itself.
As well...if Mel's serious about bringing forth lightbrinber, wouldn't she be looking for someone to play the role of Nissa nissa? If i were in her shoes, id be whispering in tree v ear of the woman that genuinely loved Stannis, and be willing to sacrifice themself in order to forge lightbringer
I always figured the break between Melisandre and the rest of the priests was the level of casualty of their faith. Being a religious person myself, you see different levels of belief amongst religious people. You got those who go to church abd do the bits, but mostly because it's what's expected. They might actually believe, they might not, but they go through the motions of belief regardless. I think this makes you the majority of the Lord of Light believers.
Then you got people with a bit more faith. They do believe that their religion is real and actively make it part of their lives. Not zealous, but set on their path.
Then you get those who KNOW they are right, there is no other way. This is Melisandre. She KNOWS her God is real, his foe is real, and that she needs to do something about it. And in no way does this make her irrational because it's the truth to her. I always figured she had a vision so compelling abd frightening that she was convinced of this truth and then went to bring it about.
And Stannis? I think that this same vision brought her to him to eventually take her to the real savior, but she doesn't know that yet. The sword is her way of checking boxes to make other people believe. I think she believes he will get the flaming sword eventually, but no.one will back him without the glamor. It's her way of bringing followers.
a little finger said it best. Mel believes because "it's the story we tell ourselves over and over until we forget that it's a lie."
A glamor is like an illusion. Like in Dunk and Egg the Mystery Knight, when Dunk is looking at, out the corner of his eye, Maynard Plum (glamoured Bloodraven) his face shifts and Dunk can’t really tell the details but can’t see through it either. So the sword is illusion. Sure the color shifts on the sword but produces no heat. It’s a color show.
I love this new format!
Regarding mob mentalities: A person is smart. People are stupid.
I’ve always thought that “waking dragons from stone” will be in reference to burning Shireen (stone) to wake Jon (dragon)
guys do you think in dani's house of the undead vision the woman's name Rhaeghar says before dying was Melisandra? it was neither lyanna or elia, the name was also not valyrian or westerosi, Rhaeghar suddenly became a prophetic man just like Stannis, and Stannis learned everything from Melisandra. Maybe her search for the promised prince started way before Stannis?
I don’t think so. While it’s obviously possible, I’ve never seen anything that indicates that Mel was in Westeros when Rhaegar was still alive. Interesting thought though
I always thought that he seid Visenya
@@deckofcards5985 women's name
I wonder if she created this lightbringer as a place holder? We know Mel is way older than she looks, and been around. Maybe this lightbringer is just another trapping of power to help gather men to Stannis and she thinks she will find or make the real lightbringer and switch it out?
Good vid bruh, gets ya thinking
Mel doesn’t believe Stannis is Azor Ahai because he has a fake lightbringer. She believes he is Azor Ahai that has not yet found lightbringer. She believes the sword will bring people to him, so she made a fake one as a placeholder until he finds, or forges the real one.
I’d agree with you if we didn’t get inside her head and see that she truly believes Stannis is the one
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand she believes he is the one, but not because he has the sword. She believes he has not yet come into his sword, so she made him a glamour so others will believe as she does and follow him. She knows the sword is fake, but she believes the man is real.
Why give him a glamoured sword and call it lightbringer and tell him it’s special?
Because she’s also trying to get him to believe. You said yourself, he views her as a tool in his bag. A means to an end. If she can make him believe, the real sword will come in time. If she can make others believe, then his following will increase, and preparation for the long night will be faster and easier.
By the way, since we are having a bit of a conversation, I must say that your videos and theories have been critical to my ASOIAF obsession. You guys are amazing. Your channel is where I learned what R+L=J means, and also, where I became a N+A=J believer. I love your logic, and bottom line is, while I can’t completely discount R+L=J, I think the story has more potential if N+A=J. It makes more sense to me, and I think it makes more sense for Jon’s arc. I was first introduced to ASOIAF via the show. I’ve now read the books 3 times and watched many hours of TH-cam content from many channels. To @The Order of the Green Hand, I say, well done!
I like this format a lot.
Can't get enough of your content!
Dave definitely likes to "party" I can hear it in voice👍
As Melisandre herself said "a false hero can only lead us further into darkness."
Melisandre is fodder for the ongoing discussion of whether the ends justify the means. Someday we'll figure out that the means must be justified all by themselves.
Mary Ellen you said in our world there was no long night. But i think i remember hearing theories about a time of prolonged darkness. It might have been in Zechariah Sitchins Earth Chronichles
very cool !!
I love me some Red Priests, Lord of Light and Melisandre! Love this podcast guys. Great points.
Maybe Stannis' sword will become light bringer after some certain events. Or maybe Stannis didn't receive yet real sword and this is just to give him visible authority to gather living against long night. Maybe when Long Night come Stannis' glamoured sword maybe become active.
Original Lightbringer description that Maester Aemon give said that its fire burned scabbard so I would imagine what's good sword that cannot be turned off. No one will be able to carry it before battle. There must be some magical on/off switch
In a true northern region, you better be ready long before 4 o’clock in the winter. It’s def dark by 4 in MANY places!!
I think, that there are many ways to understand prophecies.
Sometimes, you are MAKING them, come true.
Also, for example, as jewish guy, I know there is a specific prey to say when you see a geniouse man. It translated something like "Blessed God For Gifting his wisdom to flash and blood"
so even your skills and abilities could be considered a miracle
I'm rereading chapters about Stannis. Last night I read the Melisandre chapter where they burn the 7 and pull the sword out. It was a false ritual. What made it false was the lack of sacrifice. Stannis is not devoted to the Faith of the Seven. Neither the sword nor Stannis's hands nor his cape were unharmed from the fire. Perhaps Melissandre knows that leading Stannis to become King will bring her to Azhor Ahai.
Yeah belief is very strong.. I watched unsolved mysteries and there was a guy that really believed in voodoo and some guy cursed him and he started dying went to hospital they didn't know what was wrong with him but he was dying until they heard from him that he was cursed. The Dr. Didnt believe in that but they had a ritual at night to undo this curse and when it was done the guy started getting better and got to full health.. belief is very powerful if you think you're dying that strongly you can die.. I believe in that
In one of the books all of Melisandres powders in her gown are described. She knows that tricking and fooling people is an important skill. She could be using the fake Lightbringer merely as a symbol representing Lightbringer not insisting it is the same original sword from legend.
Excellent💯💯💯 content 🔥🔥🔥
Maybe she believes Stannis, who is not Azor Ahai, will become Azor Ahai and the sword, now only glamoured for practical reasons, will become Light Bringer truly once he kills Shireen with it (possibly while she burns at the stake... fire and blood).
With the mob mentality I see that its mostly people who want to belong to a bigger group feeling isolated as a huge cause of it. Mel honesty did do that with stannis's family building up as time went on regardless of being right or night.
For wanting it to be stannis it could be how far Mel wants to go and seeing how great he is in all forms of war and political situations it could have warped her to believe the lie she made to be the truth.
Or...Mel doesn't know where Lightbringer is, but she believes somehow, someway it is coming. In the meantime she glamours up this place holder.
Pausing at 3:50 I wonder if her "own agenda," the disconnect between her and the red temple in the search for AA, and her thinking of Stannis as the real deal despite evidence to the contrary comes down to Mel having decided to MAKE an AA, rather than wait for one. She believes he is because she believes that much in her own power. Whether that is mystical power or the power to manipulate perceptions is a secondary question.
Stanis paid attention to all the lessons Robert skipped. He is intelligent and conciencious and did all his homework plus his brother's! :)
Thanks guys
Did Mel know Stannis would lose the Battle of the Blackwater by means of fire? I mean it was friken fire that essentially cost him what could’ve been a swift victory, before the Lion & the Rose showed up, Stannis would’ve had Queen Cersei, King Joffrey & Prince Tonmen in his custody & the game would’ve been over. What do you think Tywin would’ve done then, attack anyways or discuss terms to save his King, daughter & “grandchildren”?
I love this, just long enough to listen to on my drive home. Weird not seeing your faces though.
I think she just thinks westeros needs to build up an army to combat the long night, and Stannis is her best shot at doing that as the most obvious candidate for the throne who after taking it can then consolidate his power and get all seven kingdoms behind him. She has doubts about him being AA but doesn't necessarily need him to be as long as she can convince others he is, at least until the real AA comes along if he isn't.
I'm a bit late for the party but here is the thing. First let's take the sword issue. Lets say she totally believes that she found azor ahai. (Hope I spelled that correctly) why would she need the sword? She'd trust that he is the one and The sword is just something that he'll need in the future. So until he makes the great sacrifice required to get the sword she'll use a prop to fool the masses. Same logic she uses when she keeps the guards. It's for show and she thinks it's necessary. Doesn't really need to be the real deal if it helps sway the opinion of the masses.
Now about the fanatic part. Well, talking from experience from knowing real ass fanatics. Your problem is that you think this logically. It's not logical at all. So here she is following azor ahai. Giving him a fake sword and shit, it's useless but here is the thing. The prophecy is clear (I know it isn't but stay with me) it clearly says that he'll be the saviour or whatever. So why would she need to worry? She'll see him ripped to pieces and think that he'll rise again. That this is all part of his journey by the will of the lord of light.
So the logic would be this. It's too bad he doesn't have the sword yet but it's beyond doubt that he'll have it eventually, let's make a show for the people who are poor and week and don't see the light to bring them to the mercy and justice of our lord under the rule of his chosen one while we wait. And when he gets the real deal people would belief beyond a doubt then. And whatever danger is there facing Stannis. It's pointless since the will of the lord of light will come through regardless.
If you know someone is gonna die in 5 years for sure. By time travel let's say then will you worry about them if you see them facing certain death? And that's what a fanatic is like. They know. They know beyond reason or doubt. Even if worse comes to worst. What they know will come to be. Even if nothing I'm the world could make it so because in their mind, it already is.
No long night in our world? Excuse me!? Polar Winter? Ice Age? Vulcano Ash-Winter?
I don’t recall seeing anything that indicated that we’ve ever had a few decade long period of darkness but I’ll freely admit that I could be wrong
I think George is trying to represent a condition called compartmentalisation, where two irreconcilable beliefs are held by one functioning personality. It’s common in popular stage mediums/psychics (which Mel is sort of, except her powers are real) and people who have suffered childhood trauma (which Mel has). The Wikipedia article on it is interesting if you read it with Mel in mind. The fakery she employs in supporting the ‘true’ Ahai is not a problem to her. Her mind sort of blanks the little details out.
I think that Mel believes that the ends justify the means...
She has to know the sword is a fake, but also knows that it is a part of lore and becomes important to many... From Great Lords to Smallfolk...
She’s a fanatic, so bending the truth, to push Stannis as AH is a price she is willing to pay.
If Stannis is the one to unite the North and the rest of the Kingdom to fight against the Others... It doesn’t matter if the sword is real or not, only that most people look at it as holding significants..
Even if Stannis dies, as long as she was able to complete her goals bf that time... Then things are good.
Stannis could die in the first encounter with the Others... But as long as all the kingdoms have come together and are fighting for the Light, it doesn’t matter.
She then can make Stannis a martyr... Someone willing to die for.
Could be wrong...
But I think she knows that time is becoming limited and she had to pull the trigger on who she thought was AH. Stannis fits some, not all... But he will do for now, bc he has too... She believes it, because she has too.
She can rewrite what she sees in the flames afterward, for now... She has to get things moving.
The answer is simple; she’s faking it until he makes it. She believes he will find the real lightbringer but people need to see it now to follow him.
It’s a glass candle…She’s using Stannis’s sword to communicate with someone? Btw…love this format
I noticed that discrepancy on my 1st listen to the audio book, which was only my 2nd attempt at getting through the entire series over all.
The key is in Melisandres vision.
"I keep asking for a vision of Azor Ahai and all he shows me is Snow."
Snow.
With a capital S.
Think about it...
Mel glamours the sword because she believes Stanis is Azor. She's using the glamour temporarily create the sword fully expecting R'hllor to provide Lightbringer later. She even comments how the glamour is a temporary cheap trick
Politics is the entertainment division of the Military machine.
Maybe the original Lightbringer was a dragon. Xaros Xhoan Daxos tells Dany that, as her dragons grow, they become "a flaming sword above the world," and in the Book of Revelations, Lucifer (which means... something) takes the form of a red dragon. And the larva-things that infested Aerea were white in color. So if dragons are flaming swords, then Azor Ahai putting one of the larva into Nissa Nissa and having it grow into a fire-breathing red dragon is symbolically the same as stabbing her with a white-hot sword and tempering it into a fiery red sword.
Has Mel heard about Dany yet? If not, she might defect once she does; if so, then she clearly doesn't believe my theory.
News of Dany probably haven't gotten to the wall yet, and with the old maester outside the picture, who would actually bring them news? They were pretty much isolated on Dragonstone before going to the wall. Really really good point, she most likely doesn't know about Dany
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 Looking back, you are probably right, as Aemon and Sam learn about Dany from Quhuru Mo in Braavos, after they leave the Wall. If Mel has heard about Dany, it seems like Tycho Nestoris would need to be the one to tell her, and why would he? It would only encourage her to defect from Stannis, who is the Iron Bank's preferred claimant to the Iron Throne
Oooo! This is going to be good 💜
Even Varys told the court about Selyse hooking up with Mel in AGoT
How is Mel living with fucking up the sword.... Sunk Cost Fallacy? She sees the sword is broken, all eyes on her. Stannis most likely banning or killing her if this is not working. So she glamours it and burries that memory very deep. Is there any glimpse of memory blockade in her POV chapter? Like the glimpse of a thought appearing and immediatly burrying it? That's usually how Sunk Cost Fallacy works until the breaking point.
In my opinion. Melisandre is misreading the flames about Stannis because there's no other prominent candidate to be the prince that was promised, as of yet. Or, she glamoured the sword and trying to convince people to follow Stannis to help The Others.
I wonder if Mellisandre see's herself as someone who can handle the truth and that for her, the sword lighting up (or at least at this point) is not necessary, but the people need the myth to act right towards Stanis. Stanis could be Azor Ahai and the sword be fake. Or, the ordinary (for now) sword could come to be true at a moment of truth to come.
Whoa... TH-cam not notifying me about this is akin to breaking guest right... 😒
Maybe she thinks that lightbringer are the dragons (but stannis needs to sacrifice king"s blood to use it) and the lightbringer is just to fool the followers just like her glamours until he gets the real thing
I think the point you're catching on is a non-issue because she never specifically says that she's looking for Stannis she says she's looking for azora high and all she sees is snow, that could be because she knows Stannis isn't really his or a high and this is our first POV from her, she could be constantly wondering and trying to figure out who the real azora high for all we know.
In my opinion, Mel is like a student the night before a big project is due. Fuck, the others are coming, she's scrambling around to find the Prince that was promised, finds a dude who 90% fits tbe bill, and is trying to rough out the edges so that it's good enough.