As to why the Wall wasn't extended further on the Western end, it probably didn't need to, as George seems to have tapped into the old "undead can't cross running water" legend, so the Gorge itself protects against the Others and they can't cross the bridge. That's probably why there are so many islands in Westeros that seem to have played a big part in the ancient battles against the Others, like Starfall, Dragonstone, Battle Isle, the God's Eye and maybe Quiet Isle as well. The fact that George keeps reminding us that Wildlings can get around the Wall at the Shadow Tower, is most likely to hint to us that the Wall was never built to keep the Wildlings out as it is obviously imperfect, but for some other threat.
Dave: "Dany and the Starks turning on each other after winning the battle of the dawn would be like England and France starting to fight among each other right after world war two." Well, that is not so different from what the US and Russia did.
The USA and the USSR had a very uncomfortable alliance in WW2 because of the role America played in the Russian revolution after WW1. They had every reason not to like us. There was also that whole Operation Paperclip thing, that business got ugly on both sides.
@@sleekoduck Yes and because of Robert's rebellion the alliance between Dany and the north might be similarly uncomfortable. Thus, it would not be completely unrealistic if things get ugly shortly after a victory against the white walkers.
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 It shows that if people unite against a common threat, but have different ideas about the future they might turn on each other pretty fast after winning. In world war two it was about capitalism and communism, in season eight about northern independence and Targaryan rule over the whole continent.
Considering George puts such an emphasis on the year of the false spring in the story the idea of a “false dawn” in the long night would rhyme nicely. I like the idea of the dawn almost rising but not happening.
That discussion you were having, about the duration of the darkness made think of something: have you ever heard of the Franklin Expedition? It was XIXth century expedition to try and sail arround North America through the Arctic and into the Pacific. Its easy now, because of technology and global warming but back than, it was considered impossible by many. It consisted of two ships and they planned ahead for a time when the sea would freeze and trap the ships for the winter months...except something happened arround that time and the sea didn't taw. They were locked in the ice for two years straight with very little sunlight. When you were talking about how George 's magic always seems to have a scientific basis, it made me think of that.
They are just people’s worst fears materialized. In the prologue they are sort of honorable and “dance” with the duelist. The Nights Watch saw an army, Sam saw a single slasher-movie type, the ones on ships see dead things in the water and the free folk only see a biting cold mist (winter).
@@gillriet773 I think it's all tied to the dreams of the CotF. They "shape" dreams and out of that what isn't real becomes real. A Long Night is like a long sleep, a long dream, and it is thanks to this long night that the CotF's magic can keep its power. If people discover science, they will stop believing, and the CotF's magic power will diminish.
Of all the characters at the Wall, I'm eagerly anticipating Melisandre's POVs of the Long Night. Not just for her magical capabilities; but also because she could be fire's version of an Other so her perspective would be entirely unique. But beyond that, I think she'll sacrifice somebody- possibly Princess Shireen- and the act, while heinous, will repel the Others and buy everyone valuable time. This could allow for all the chapters Dave predicted would be dedicated to the Long Night. In any case, the sacrifice may not hold the Others off indefinitely, but it could buy enough time for critical reinforcements to arrive. GRRM repeatedly toys w/the notion of the value of a child's life against that of an entire kingdom of people, so perhaps we'll find out.
@@sleekoduck That's an interesting idea, but David and Dan said Shireen's manner of death came from George so I think it's safe to assume it happens in the books as well. And I thought the Prince who was promised was supposed to come from Aerys and Rhaella's bloodline? Shireen's grandmother was a Targaryen but she's not from that offshoot. Still and all, I do sometimes toy w/the question of Patches' effect on Shireen...like will he try to harm her or save her. I could see him going ballistic if she is sacrificed...like maybe running into the fire to try and save her but inadvertently killing himself in the process.
@@LordJordanXVII Nice. I don't necessarily like Mel, though I find her POVs interesting. George has said she's the most misunderstood character in the story, so I'm trying to be more open minded but to no avail as of yet lol.
@@ashleyofnaath Shireen Baratheon is one of the only characters who has lineages from every magical bloodline in the world of planetos. If there is a connection with Dying of the Light, she could be a fulfilment of the lost prophecy. I did a video on it. Patchface is definitely up to something sinister. I'm not so sure Shireen or Dany are going to end up being good characters in the end, although I don't see Daenerys Stormborn going full mad queen like she did in the show.
I realized back when I read The Ice Dragon that Winterfell is likely named as the location where winter literally fell. I know the story isn’t cannon, but the symbology is there regardless. The pool of black water left after the ice dragon dies, that is always cold, is exactly how the pool in the godswood is described.
Yeah I don't buy that The Ice Dragon is completely unrelated. It may not be canon but it serves as a prototype. Honestly I can imagine it being set during the Great Empire of the Dawn times, but that's just my tinfoil.
I believe that George has said in previous interviews that the" Ice Dragon" in his story has nothing to do with the ASOIAF series.But i 100:agree with your Winterfell location. WINTER definitely Fell at Winterfell😂😂
To my mind, Stannis and Dany's fates are linked. Remember, at the House of the Undying Dany is told she'll "slay the lie" of a blue-eyed king who possesses a glowing red sword and casts no shadow. So Stannis will live long enough to meet Daenerys. I'd imagine that means he'd fight several battles against the Others before his demise. In truth, I suspect Stannis and Dany BOTH go out like Rhaenys, daughter of Aemon- they sacrifice themselves for a realm that rejected them because it's what's best for the people. They'll die heroes.
I don't really expect that. Those sound like the heroic endings for these characters that we as readers want, but GRRM generally doesn't give us heroic endings for our favorite characters.
@@frankvandorp9732 Respectfully disagree. I think George would give Stannis and Dany hero deaths because they've both earned it, not because they're beloved. It's the difference between saving the kingdom to win the throne vs winning the throne to save the kingdom. Just like Rhaenys, both Stannis and Dany are leaders who take the former approach at great personal risk to themselves.
Isn’t “slayer of lies” and “blue-eyed king who casts no shadow” independent of each other? It could refer to proving Euron isn’t a god or Aegon being a blackfyre.
I really like the idea of Doran just saving the people of Dorne and not letting anyone in. I hope we get to see a huge fight in the winds of winter where everyone else is trying to get in to Dorne and the Dornish are like “you shall not pass!”
I'm pretty sure there are certain wildling factions that worship & leave "offerings" for the Others. I think the clans of the frozen shore are one. So there's probably a few hundred Others at least
I think Dany will die sacrificing her in the Nissa Nissa role to create a kind of absolutely necessary overpowered weapon which will be needed to finish the Others of.
It's obvious Aegon will be needed for the Long Night, Rhoynar Legend is about minor fights to be stopped to bring back the light, and after petty fights of WotFK at Westeros, Aegon is needed to stop them and unite people against Others
I interpreted the Tower of the Hand in king’s landing as being built like Winterfell; plumbed over a hot spring. Too bad nobody can take shelter in it now that Cersei got her hands on it
Idea maybe there was only originally one Other still alive when the Doom hit Valyria that woke it, and it slowly has been building it's forces over those three hundred years, getting people like Craster to sacrifice their sons to him. Building an army of Wights and now that he has enough Others he can show them how to magically bring the Long Night again, dragging it down with them. However even when the forces of Mankind drive back the Others I don't think they will wipe them out. I feel like once again one Other will escape and put himself to sleep until the power of Darkness is on the rise again. (Just a crack pot theory!)
Real question I want to know is what keeps the white walkers on the north while the dragons are on the south. We know from the prequels that dragons either can't or don't want to pass the wall so something Magical in the wall somehow keeps fire and ice away from each other in a direct way. That's gonna be a good time to see why or what keeps the embodiments of ice and fire away from one another Whites are somehow able to pass like the ice whites inside the wall and possibly Mel but things that are skin changed or warged like the eagle and ghost can't be connected too or burn up as a result. The wall has very special magic
about the wights, the watch controls the mountain, in such a way that they can incite anyone to pass through, like sam let bran meera jojen hodor and summer paas through the gate at the night fort. the watch took the bodies of the wights through the wall and stored them in castle black, so they where able to pass the wall. about the wargs, i'm pretty sure varamir's eagle just combusted because mellisandra toasted it, and i don't know about ghost. about mel, she was also invited through by the watch
@@jeannebouwman1970 ghost connection was cut off from Jon so something must have blocked the signal. Mel just said she did it we didn't actually see or hear her do it. The bodies were already dead but not whights yet. Could mean it's like a timer affect to be brought back alive as if the wall could not stop whites then why not just attack like when the letter came about dead things in the water. Overall the wall has many Different rules on it for the different types of magic that is brought over it Making it more unique as its own Character in a way where it isn't just one thing or another but somehow has different affects for each kind of magic.
@@ivanbluecool it just makes sense for mel to have killed the eagle. She has fire magic, the eagle combusted, the wall has ice magic. Also, the wights might have just played dead
@@jeannebouwman1970 the wights playing dead wouldn't mean anything at all if they can get past the magic. That's like saying you ignore the sign saying the place up ahead is poisoning people but not you because you didn't read the rules. The whights pretending wouldn't work or else all wights could just walk through the door without issue since the magic wouldn't work on them. Yeah it "makes sense" but it doesn't mean it truly happened. The wall has shown so many times how much it's magic affects Different parts of life being a sort of barrier to keep ice and fire away with dragons unable to cross the wall while white walkers haven't as well. Something more is up and the eagle situation is still like Jon losing his link to ghost at the wall to me but ghost didn't get hurt as he is a direwolf which is said to be lucky. Overall until we see more examples it's not mel. She is just smart enough to lie like all the glamors she has or makes people wear which isn't something she would keep from knowing. If people think she can throw fire then they fear her which is how power works
The wall contains lightbringer. Stannis put his cold/fake lightbringer on a map along the wall during a chapter with Jon. That was a hint of what the wall actually is. It was a sheath for lightbringer.
I hope Daenerys survives the book series but George admitted there's a few fans that guessed the ending a long time ago and that the final battle will be between ice 🧊 and fire 🔥, we know that ice and fire has to be pushed back in order to balance the power scale and Daenerys represents fire.
If wetlands and rivers cease being major obstacles, than the next major obstacle becomes forests to overland travel. This observation may be the reason that Northern Castles are strategically placed to command spaces in between dense forests.
Sleeping might just be a metaphor for getting ready. The others have been receiving children this while time with a major slow down after Queen Alyssan (?) stopped the 1st night and after she did that the Others weren't getting any children to keep their civilization going. When the 1st night stopped they were facing extinction so the "woke up" after getting ready for war to save their civilization.
George confirmed Danny WILL be stabbed by Jon, so my money's on Jon quenching the blade that will destroy the great other in Danny the same way Bran the builder did with Nessa-Nessa. As for poor shireen, I think that after Stanis falls in battle, Sylese and the rest of the @$$-hat wakado Florrents will burn Shireen in a desperate attempt to save themselves from the others..
I feel a long night is a bit more metaphorical than just litteral where the world is in darkness for a long time will probably happen but also darkness where the world and the people will change to be worse than general as things will get that bad. Also I'm sure someone will count how many people died during the war before the long night and it will be George's way to show if people joined together immediately and not fight for a throne of swords then we wouldn't have all the issues in the realm. Fight wise stannis will be correct where many people with courage not just the chosen one will need to stand together like Jon aegon and Dany instead of just one person who is the one person to lead the people like in Lord of the rings. Battle wise I think people will join the white walkers side like the ones who hate Dany and those who worship death gods. Basically many fights on multiple sides.
I feel like, despite the name, the LONG NIGHT is the one big thing all the fandome is forgetting as they speculate. It's a LONG NIGHT... Didn't Nan say that children were born, grew to adulthood and died without ever having seen the sun? So... just how dark is it going to be? will there be any discernable difference between night and day at all? Only GRRM knows and can answer... but I feel like we shouldn't forget about what that term, THE LONG NIGHT, entails.
Using traveling couldn’t be used for some series time jumps. Say if jon is fighting at the wall, they get pushed back to winterfell. Easy for it to take 2 months just to get there. Takes about 3 weeks with no weather. In the middle of a magical winter, it would be reasonable it takes an extra month or so in harsh weather. If they get pushed back to the riverlands. Take another 6 months pick up when they get there. Almost a year gone and George wouldn’t have to write much to cover it.
Ive always wondered why people assume that the Others intend on coming south of the Wall. So little is known about the others their motives are unknown. We know that the Others want Crasters son. We know that they have a duel culture from the prologue. They amassed a large force to fight at The Fist of the first men against the Nights Watch. We assume that the pact was broken which ended the long night. But they didn't attack Mances army of Wildlings at the wall. That would have been their perfect opportunity. However, beyond the wall seems relatively safe.
I think the explanation for the "Red Mountains" of Dorne is in one of the Dunk and Egg stories And yes it's about the slaughter that happened there at some point
I have a theory (much like Preston’s Punnet Square theory) that the long night can be explained by something from our real life history/events. And that the “seasons” of Westeros can be explained by Aristotle’s heliocentric universe. I don’t have a lot of research to back this up at this time. But am currently working on the paper. Just thought I’d share if anyone else has some parallel thinking
Which role do you think will the old gods play in the war against the others? Usually the war is between opposites but the others are also ancient creatures of cold and darkness.
You don’t think harenhall which is a castle that can hold all the armies of men might play a role in the long night when all the armies of men need to unite to fight the others? I think that’s where the turning point will be and that’s where all the people of Westeros will finally come together if that’s going to happen
From The World of Ice and Fire "...yet there are those who say these mountains are named not for the colour of their stones but for all the blood that has soaked into the ground." "His son, Garth XI, did the rest, taking such a terrible vengance on the Dornishmen that Lord Hightower said afterward that the Red Mountains had been green until Garth painted them with Dornish blood. For the remainder of his long reign, the king was known as Garth the Painter."
My theory is that the old castles, esp. those built by Bran the Builder will be protected by magic and therefore places of refuge. (Winterfell, Storms End, Casterly Rock, maybe Riverrun, etc...) People will try to take refuge at King's Landing but of course it does not have magical protection, so the people there will be massacred.
I'm very interested to see if The Isle of Faces comes into play. Does Bran physically go there? Does Dany go to Harrenhal to try and understand what attracted Rhaegar there? Will she stumble upon the island? What about the Green Men. Bran has already insinuated that he may seek their help.
As far as the wall goes isn't there a quote in the books saying that battles be fought along the wall, that the bridge of skulls will be taken, and the hammer with hit hardest at East wall by the sea?
Guetion related to the length of the days in Westeros: How do the people in Westeros measure a year? Do they count the moon, 13 moons and that's a year? Do they count the days? They can't do it by changing of seasons for sure 🤔
Calendars are typically based on the moon, like our current one. They're not typically based on seasons... the whole world doesn't even experience 4 full seasons.
I haven't been around in a while, but to hear your voices is like music to my soul. How many long nights do you think have happened. In my mind I see at least 3( it's a popular number in George's world)
in the show (i think the ep where Craster/Mormont die) I think was when he was bragging about 99 sons. "You ever meet someone with 99 sons?"... so 100 even?
I think the south being convinced of the Others by seeing the northerners fleeing would be very appropriate since the wildlings fleeing convinced the north
I doubt very much we'll get "Dozens" of chapters to explain the Long Night 2.0 and I'd love to know how Craster and the"Others" were able to strike a bargain in regards to Craters sons?cos they dont speak the Westerosi tounge or the old tounge.They speak in "SKROTH" i believe its called??the sound of cracking ice
That stupid island stand-off on the show waiting for Dany to save them…I’ve thought how cool it would be if that had been the Gods Eye. Survivors on the Island completely surrounded by the Others and hoping Dragons would come and save them. With Others trying to freeze and cross the ice…
I think I heard this theory somewhere else, but when you guys suggested that the Others actually bring the cold with them (which I like, btw) it made me think that maybe they, or at least a portion of them, are using the cave system to bypass the Wall & are about to come up through the crypts of Winterfell, which would explain why it's suddenly so cold their! It is a little tinfoilly but George did lay the ground work for it by focusing so much on the massive underground cave systems everywhere & the fact that no one knows what's in the lowest levels of the crips 🤷🏼♂️ Whatever the case, great video, I love when you just brainstorm like this : )
What Book reference do you base the idea that the others transform the Craster infants? The only thing I can think of is a scene from the show that shall not be counted.
Off topic, but is it true that Jon Snow placed some fresh corpses in the ice cells and saw if they rose and turned into eights? If so, here's my idea; I thought that the foundations for the wall was made from the sane6, oily black stone that composed the Seastone Chair, the base rock of the high tower and the five fortresses (in Easos). The rocks are said to prevent the Others from doing their thing. It is possible that the deeper ice cells (where its colder) are also built into the foundations, that's why the fresh corpses never rose up and turned into eights.
My question is, How much of Westeros/Planetos was affected by the first Long Night? And, Does the darkness literally follow the Others? Example. If the Others made it as far as Winterfell, would it still be daylight south of there? And did Valarians with their dragons help defeat them the first time?
What if it was the other way around. The Wall is off Ice, dragon's can't fly over it. What if it was meant to keep the Dragons from conquering it. Also why would icy beings have a problem with an ice wall? It just doesn't make sense to me.
The Others are the heralds of Winter! They come forth to prepare the world for Winter's coming! Winter marches from the beyond the northern blight to subjugate the world in his icey grip!!!
So, people are asking about what is making the Others wake up. My theory is that somebody amongst the world of the living is actively waking them, with the plan to ascend to higher power during this period of chaos. Or, that someone intentionally woke up the Others in order to force them into battle now, while the chance to win a fight against them is not too far gone a conclusion. Say, Rhaegar stealing Lyanna from Winterfell. The goal being to summon the Others while they were still in a state that they could be defeated. Because when the Others aren't actively being forced into combat, they are still growing their strength. Eventually they might become strong enough that the living couldn't hope to defeat them, and so these periods of strife are endured for the sake of avoiding an even greater, more definitive struggle that ends in our extinction.
The three body problem has some possible answers for the long night being preceded by what may be percieved as a meteor and the variable seasons on Planetos.
If the others try to get to the isle of faces, will Harrenhall be garrisoned to try and stop them? We know It's still formidable and can hold thousands
Considering the spherical world and all I was wondering if you might think that we’ll see anything about this on the other side of the world (probably around the five forts) or if they end up freezing the ocean and end up in or near bravos (might be how Arya gets back to the main plot?? Maybe) or just any effect the long night has outside of Westeros
One question? In brans dream chapter... it says he looked north and north and what he say was so terrible his tears burned his face. Are the others the real threat? We know with an absolute certainty from chapter1 books of the truth that they exist. We know some power attributed to r'hllor functions what about The Great Other? Who or what is the great other? Do the others worship it? Fear it? What is the difference between The Great Other and the Others? We know that the nights king made sacrifices , but it never specifically said it was to the others. We also know that there was at least one female other. Are there more.?
Your mentioning of temperature not changing underground made me wonder if the Winterfel crypts can be some sort of natural Others repellant. Also, your audio seems to cut in and out for this video. Maybe it's possible some words are getting cut out?
You forgot about the obvious POV at the wall... Melisandre; well IF she survives long enough there! Perhaps even some new POV, Tormund or Val could be the obvious choice there... Concerning the Red Mountains... well, the obvious thing would be because it’s sandstone (which makes sense given the southern side is a desert) and not chalk, like many other mountains. I mean the seat of house Qorgyle is even named that way, even though it’s at least a hundred miles further south, but I guess a lot of castles in Dorne (or city walls) would be made out of Sandstone
Also do you think that the dead can pass under the wall , thru the endless tunnels. The dead may go all the way to WinterFell and come out of the crypt
This is true, but if those who created the barrier didn't know about the tunnels maybe the magic is pointed up. Either way I for one will be glad when we find out.
I feel like thereason the others have not breeched the wall thus far is they were keeping their side of a pact. Once the deal is broken, crossing will be easy for them.
If others go south and it gets warmer in north then the polar ice will melt and the ocean level will rise and the continents will start to drown and if they freeze that water others can move anywhere as it pleases them
Not to bend your ear even more, we have not seen the others and the undead on the same page. We don't see them turn Waymor Royce into a white. Will stays in the tree for a very very long time. When he comes down then Royce gets up. Also at the fist of the first men it's the undead attacking. We don't see a other till days later. Don't know what to make of that, thanks for your time
Love this video. I think the Others aren't sleeping anymore because the pact had been broken, Nissa Nissa is probably dead or something so they woke up.
It was global I'm sure. The Qarthine legend of the birth of dragons..the bloodstone emperor and his fallen star he worshipped. I think the long night and the hammer of the waters and the doom are all huge blood magic sacrifices that triggered cataclysmic natural disasters.
I think that most if not all of the people in the north will become Others or be wighted (starks included) and battle against an army of fire wights and fire Others from the burned ruins of Kings landing
The book version will be different, since a book usually doesn’t come out after the tv series. There would be no surprise, which is good because the tv series was obviously disappointing
If the first long night stayed a generation long but the new one just a few month, there must be a major difference. Will the children of the forest help the humans? Will there be dragons which weren‘t there before? Will Azor Ahai be stronger? Maybe Jon? Otherwise it would just be very lame!
I appreciate your content because you are thought provoking but with just 2 books to go, I can’t see us getting a prolonged Long Night at all. Prepare for Disappointment, not Winter.
I don't see why most of the next 2 books couldn't be the Long Night. I don't believe this is all going to wrap up cleanly. The final book is called A Dream of Spring, not Spring.
Take a room noise track recording for about 10 minutes before the recording of voices, then underlay the room track continuously under the voices to prevent the dead space between edits please.
As to why the Wall wasn't extended further on the Western end, it probably didn't need to, as George seems to have tapped into the old "undead can't cross running water" legend, so the Gorge itself protects against the Others and they can't cross the bridge. That's probably why there are so many islands in Westeros that seem to have played a big part in the ancient battles against the Others, like Starfall, Dragonstone, Battle Isle, the God's Eye and maybe Quiet Isle as well.
The fact that George keeps reminding us that Wildlings can get around the Wall at the Shadow Tower, is most likely to hint to us that the Wall was never built to keep the Wildlings out as it is obviously imperfect, but for some other threat.
Bingo
Dave: "Dany and the Starks turning on each other after winning the battle of the dawn would be like England and France starting to fight among each other right after world war two." Well, that is not so different from what the US and Russia did.
The USA and the USSR had a very uncomfortable alliance in WW2 because of the role America played in the Russian revolution after WW1. They had every reason not to like us. There was also that whole Operation Paperclip thing, that business got ugly on both sides.
@@sleekoduck Yes and because of Robert's rebellion the alliance between Dany and the north might be similarly uncomfortable. Thus, it would not be completely unrealistic if things get ugly shortly after a victory against the white walkers.
My thoughts exactly
Yeah but that’s about capitalism and communism, ASOIAF is pretty far off from such ideas. They’re not abolishing feudalism anytime soon
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 It shows that if people unite against a common threat, but have different ideas about the future they might turn on each other pretty fast after winning. In world war two it was about capitalism and communism, in season eight about northern independence and Targaryan rule over the whole continent.
Considering George puts such an emphasis on the year of the false spring in the story the idea of a “false dawn” in the long night would rhyme nicely. I like the idea of the dawn almost rising but not happening.
A "dream" of spring
That discussion you were having, about the duration of the darkness made think of something: have you ever heard of the Franklin Expedition? It was XIXth century expedition to try and sail arround North America through the Arctic and into the Pacific. Its easy now, because of technology and global warming but back than, it was considered impossible by many.
It consisted of two ships and they planned ahead for a time when the sea would freeze and trap the ships for the winter months...except something happened arround that time and the sea didn't taw. They were locked in the ice for two years straight with very little sunlight.
When you were talking about how George 's magic always seems to have a scientific basis, it made me think of that.
wow, interesting!
They are just people’s worst fears materialized. In the prologue they are sort of honorable and “dance” with the duelist. The Nights Watch saw an army, Sam saw a single slasher-movie type, the ones on ships see dead things in the water and the free folk only see a biting cold mist (winter).
maybe not "just" that but I love the idea
@@gillriet773 I think it's all tied to the dreams of the CotF. They "shape" dreams and out of that what isn't real becomes real. A Long Night is like a long sleep, a long dream, and it is thanks to this long night that the CotF's magic can keep its power. If people discover science, they will stop believing, and the CotF's magic power will diminish.
Of all the characters at the Wall, I'm eagerly anticipating Melisandre's POVs of the Long Night. Not just for her magical capabilities; but also because she could be fire's version of an Other so her perspective would be entirely unique. But beyond that, I think she'll sacrifice somebody- possibly Princess Shireen- and the act, while heinous, will repel the Others and buy everyone valuable time. This could allow for all the chapters Dave predicted would be dedicated to the Long Night. In any case, the sacrifice may not hold the Others off indefinitely, but it could buy enough time for critical reinforcements to arrive. GRRM repeatedly toys w/the notion of the value of a child's life against that of an entire kingdom of people, so perhaps we'll find out.
Unless Patchface takes Shireen to the Others to be the Princess who was Promised. No child who was shown mercy ever turns out well in GRRM's stories.
@@sleekoduck That's an interesting idea, but David and Dan said Shireen's manner of death came from George so I think it's safe to assume it happens in the books as well. And I thought the Prince who was promised was supposed to come from Aerys and Rhaella's bloodline? Shireen's grandmother was a Targaryen but she's not from that offshoot.
Still and all, I do sometimes toy w/the question of Patches' effect on Shireen...like will he try to harm her or save her. I could see him going ballistic if she is sacrificed...like maybe running into the fire to try and save her but inadvertently killing himself in the process.
Melisandre is my favorite.
@@LordJordanXVII Nice. I don't necessarily like Mel, though I find her POVs interesting. George has said she's the most misunderstood character in the story, so I'm trying to be more open minded but to no avail as of yet lol.
@@ashleyofnaath Shireen Baratheon is one of the only characters who has lineages from every magical bloodline in the world of planetos. If there is a connection with Dying of the Light, she could be a fulfilment of the lost prophecy. I did a video on it. Patchface is definitely up to something sinister. I'm not so sure Shireen or Dany are going to end up being good characters in the end, although I don't see Daenerys Stormborn going full mad queen like she did in the show.
I realized back when I read The Ice Dragon that Winterfell is likely named as the location where winter literally fell. I know the story isn’t cannon, but the symbology is there regardless. The pool of black water left after the ice dragon dies, that is always cold, is exactly how the pool in the godswood is described.
Yeah I don't buy that The Ice Dragon is completely unrelated. It may not be canon but it serves as a prototype.
Honestly I can imagine it being set during the Great Empire of the Dawn times, but that's just my tinfoil.
I believe that George has said in previous interviews that the" Ice Dragon" in his story has nothing to do with the ASOIAF series.But i 100:agree with your Winterfell location. WINTER definitely Fell at Winterfell😂😂
To my mind, Stannis and Dany's fates are linked. Remember, at the House of the Undying Dany is told she'll "slay the lie" of a blue-eyed king who possesses a glowing red sword and casts no shadow. So Stannis will live long enough to meet Daenerys. I'd imagine that means he'd fight several battles against the Others before his demise. In truth, I suspect Stannis and Dany BOTH go out like Rhaenys, daughter of Aemon- they sacrifice themselves for a realm that rejected them because it's what's best for the people. They'll die heroes.
I don't really expect that. Those sound like the heroic endings for these characters that we as readers want, but GRRM generally doesn't give us heroic endings for our favorite characters.
@@frankvandorp9732 Respectfully disagree. I think George would give Stannis and Dany hero deaths because they've both earned it, not because they're beloved. It's the difference between saving the kingdom to win the throne vs winning the throne to save the kingdom. Just like Rhaenys, both Stannis and Dany are leaders who take the former approach at great personal risk to themselves.
I think Dany's "slaying the lie" will be her becoming the true embodiment of Azor Ahai reborn whereas Stannis merely pretends to be.
@@ashleyofnaath So far, not a single character ever got the death they "earned."
Isn’t “slayer of lies” and “blue-eyed king who casts no shadow” independent of each other? It could refer to proving Euron isn’t a god or Aegon being a blackfyre.
I really like the idea of Doran just saving the people of Dorne and not letting anyone in. I hope we get to see a huge fight in the winds of winter where everyone else is trying to get in to Dorne and the Dornish are like “you shall not pass!”
What if Craster's son's are sacrificed to awaken sleeping white walkers instead of the babies being transformed into white walkers?
Yeah exactly only the show made an implication about what they did and Craster’s wives only think about what happens to them they don’t know
I'm pretty sure there are certain wildling factions that worship & leave "offerings" for the Others. I think the clans of the frozen shore are one. So there's probably a few hundred Others at least
I think Dany will die sacrificing her in the Nissa Nissa role to create a kind of absolutely necessary overpowered weapon which will be needed to finish the Others of.
It's obvious Aegon will be needed for the Long Night, Rhoynar Legend is about minor fights to be stopped to bring back the light, and after petty fights of WotFK at Westeros, Aegon is needed to stop them and unite people against Others
I interpreted the Tower of the Hand in king’s landing as being built like Winterfell; plumbed over a hot spring. Too bad nobody can take shelter in it now that Cersei got her hands on it
Idea maybe there was only originally one Other still alive when the Doom hit Valyria that woke it, and it slowly has been building it's forces over those three hundred years, getting people like Craster to sacrifice their sons to him. Building an army of Wights and now that he has enough Others he can show them how to magically bring the Long Night again, dragging it down with them.
However even when the forces of Mankind drive back the Others I don't think they will wipe them out. I feel like once again one Other will escape and put himself to sleep until the power of Darkness is on the rise again. (Just a crack pot theory!)
Real question I want to know is what keeps the white walkers on the north while the dragons are on the south. We know from the prequels that dragons either can't or don't want to pass the wall so something Magical in the wall somehow keeps fire and ice away from each other in a direct way. That's gonna be a good time to see why or what keeps the embodiments of ice and fire away from one another
Whites are somehow able to pass like the ice whites inside the wall and possibly Mel but things that are skin changed or warged like the eagle and ghost can't be connected too or burn up as a result. The wall has very special magic
about the wights, the watch controls the mountain, in such a way that they can incite anyone to pass through, like sam let bran meera jojen hodor and summer paas through the gate at the night fort. the watch took the bodies of the wights through the wall and stored them in castle black, so they where able to pass the wall. about the wargs, i'm pretty sure varamir's eagle just combusted because mellisandra toasted it, and i don't know about ghost. about mel, she was also invited through by the watch
@@jeannebouwman1970 ghost connection was cut off from Jon so something must have blocked the signal. Mel just said she did it we didn't actually see or hear her do it.
The bodies were already dead but not whights yet. Could mean it's like a timer affect to be brought back alive as if the wall could not stop whites then why not just attack like when the letter came about dead things in the water.
Overall the wall has many Different rules on it for the different types of magic that is brought over it Making it more unique as its own Character in a way where it isn't just one thing or another but somehow has different affects for each kind of magic.
@@ivanbluecool it just makes sense for mel to have killed the eagle. She has fire magic, the eagle combusted, the wall has ice magic. Also, the wights might have just played dead
@@jeannebouwman1970 the wights playing dead wouldn't mean anything at all if they can get past the magic. That's like saying you ignore the sign saying the place up ahead is poisoning people but not you because you didn't read the rules. The whights pretending wouldn't work or else all wights could just walk through the door without issue since the magic wouldn't work on them.
Yeah it "makes sense" but it doesn't mean it truly happened. The wall has shown so many times how much it's magic affects Different parts of life being a sort of barrier to keep ice and fire away with dragons unable to cross the wall while white walkers haven't as well. Something more is up and the eagle situation is still like Jon losing his link to ghost at the wall to me but ghost didn't get hurt as he is a direwolf which is said to be lucky.
Overall until we see more examples it's not mel. She is just smart enough to lie like all the glamors she has or makes people wear which isn't something she would keep from knowing. If people think she can throw fire then they fear her which is how power works
The wall contains lightbringer. Stannis put his cold/fake lightbringer on a map along the wall during a chapter with Jon. That was a hint of what the wall actually is.
It was a sheath for lightbringer.
I hope Daenerys survives the book series but George admitted there's a few fans that guessed the ending a long time ago and that the final battle will be between ice 🧊 and fire 🔥, we know that ice and fire has to be pushed back in order to balance the power scale and Daenerys represents fire.
Danaerys is going to die 100%
To add to the prediction, once the others reach Winterfell, they rename it Sumerfell
If wetlands and rivers cease being major obstacles, than the next major obstacle becomes forests to overland travel. This observation may be the reason that Northern Castles are strategically placed to command spaces in between dense forests.
Sleeping might just be a metaphor for getting ready. The others have been receiving children this while time with a major slow down after Queen Alyssan (?) stopped the 1st night and after she did that the Others weren't getting any children to keep their civilization going. When the 1st night stopped they were facing extinction so the "woke up" after getting ready for war to save their civilization.
I really like this theory
You guys always make my Monday with these uploads. I love to listen while I work. Thank You
George confirmed Danny WILL be stabbed by Jon, so my money's on Jon quenching the blade that will destroy the great other in Danny the same way Bran the builder did with Nessa-Nessa. As for poor shireen, I think that after Stanis falls in battle, Sylese and the rest of the @$$-hat wakado Florrents will burn Shireen in a desperate attempt to save themselves from the others..
I feel a long night is a bit more metaphorical than just litteral where the world is in darkness for a long time will probably happen but also darkness where the world and the people will change to be worse than general as things will get that bad.
Also I'm sure someone will count how many people died during the war before the long night and it will be George's way to show if people joined together immediately and not fight for a throne of swords then we wouldn't have all the issues in the realm.
Fight wise stannis will be correct where many people with courage not just the chosen one will need to stand together like Jon aegon and Dany instead of just one person who is the one person to lead the people like in Lord of the rings.
Battle wise I think people will join the white walkers side like the ones who hate Dany and those who worship death gods. Basically many fights on multiple sides.
I feel like, despite the name, the LONG NIGHT is the one big thing all the fandome is forgetting as they speculate. It's a LONG NIGHT... Didn't Nan say that children were born, grew to adulthood and died without ever having seen the sun? So... just how dark is it going to be? will there be any discernable difference between night and day at all? Only GRRM knows and can answer... but I feel like we shouldn't forget about what that term, THE LONG NIGHT, entails.
Using traveling couldn’t be used for some series time jumps. Say if jon is fighting at the wall, they get pushed back to winterfell. Easy for it to take 2 months just to get there. Takes about 3 weeks with no weather. In the middle of a magical winter, it would be reasonable it takes an extra month or so in harsh weather. If they get pushed back to the riverlands. Take another 6 months pick up when they get there. Almost a year gone and George wouldn’t have to write much to cover it.
Ive always wondered why people assume that the Others intend on coming south of the Wall. So little is known about the others their motives are unknown. We know that the Others want Crasters son. We know that they have a duel culture from the prologue. They amassed a large force to fight at The Fist of the first men against the Nights Watch. We assume that the pact was broken which ended the long night. But they didn't attack Mances army of Wildlings at the wall. That would have been their perfect opportunity. However, beyond the wall seems relatively safe.
I think the explanation for the "Red Mountains" of Dorne is in one of the Dunk and Egg stories
And yes it's about the slaughter that happened there at some point
I have a theory (much like Preston’s Punnet Square theory) that the long night can be explained by something from our real life history/events. And that the “seasons” of Westeros can be explained by Aristotle’s heliocentric universe. I don’t have a lot of research to back this up at this time. But am currently working on the paper. Just thought I’d share if anyone else has some parallel thinking
Which role do you think will the old gods play in the war against the others?
Usually the war is between opposites but the others are also ancient creatures of cold and darkness.
You don’t think harenhall which is a castle that can hold all the armies of men might play a role in the long night when all the armies of men need to unite to fight the others? I think that’s where the turning point will be and that’s where all the people of Westeros will finally come together if that’s going to happen
From The World of Ice and Fire
"...yet there are those who say these mountains are named not for the colour of their stones but for all the blood that has soaked into the ground."
"His son, Garth XI, did the rest, taking such a terrible vengance on the Dornishmen that Lord Hightower said afterward that the Red Mountains had been green until Garth painted them with Dornish blood. For the remainder of his long reign, the king was known as Garth the Painter."
My theory is that the old castles, esp. those built by Bran the Builder will be protected by magic and therefore places of refuge. (Winterfell, Storms End, Casterly Rock, maybe Riverrun, etc...) People will try to take refuge at King's Landing but of course it does not have magical protection, so the people there will be massacred.
I'm very interested to see if The Isle of Faces comes into play. Does Bran physically go there? Does Dany go to Harrenhal to try and understand what attracted Rhaegar there? Will she stumble upon the island? What about the Green Men. Bran has already insinuated that he may seek their help.
The north of were i live Norway. Winter is like a perpetual night
As far as the wall goes isn't there a quote in the books saying that battles be fought along the wall, that the bridge of skulls will be taken, and the hammer with hit hardest at East wall by the sea?
Guetion related to the length of the days in Westeros:
How do the people in Westeros measure a year? Do they count the moon, 13 moons and that's a year? Do they count the days? They can't do it by changing of seasons for sure 🤔
Guetion
Calendars are typically based on the moon, like our current one. They're not typically based on seasons... the whole world doesn't even experience 4 full seasons.
I haven't been around in a while, but to hear your voices is like music to my soul. How many long nights do you think have happened. In my mind I see at least 3( it's a popular number in George's world)
in the show (i think the ep where Craster/Mormont die) I think was when he was bragging about 99 sons. "You ever meet someone with 99 sons?"... so 100 even?
I think the south being convinced of the Others by seeing the northerners fleeing would be very appropriate since the wildlings fleeing convinced the north
I doubt very much we'll get "Dozens" of chapters to explain the Long Night 2.0 and I'd love to know how Craster and the"Others" were able to strike a bargain in regards to Craters sons?cos they dont speak the Westerosi tounge or the old tounge.They speak in "SKROTH" i believe its called??the sound of cracking ice
That stupid island stand-off on the show waiting for Dany to save them…I’ve thought how cool it would be if that had been the Gods Eye. Survivors on the Island completely surrounded by the Others and hoping Dragons would come and save them. With Others trying to freeze and cross the ice…
I think I heard this theory somewhere else, but when you guys suggested that the Others actually bring the cold with them (which I like, btw) it made me think that maybe they, or at least a portion of them, are using the cave system to bypass the Wall & are about to come up through the crypts of Winterfell, which would explain why it's suddenly so cold their!
It is a little tinfoilly but George did lay the ground work for it by focusing so much on the massive underground cave systems everywhere & the fact that no one knows what's in the lowest levels of the crips 🤷🏼♂️
Whatever the case, great video, I love when you just brainstorm like this : )
there*
@@Richard_Nickerson
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@@jsull81
You used the wrong homophone
What Book reference do you base the idea that the others transform the Craster infants? The only thing I can think of is a scene from the show that shall not be counted.
Yes! Thank you for bringing this up. It's definitely not confirmed yet but Craster's wives do refer to the Others as the "sons"
@@jschoma11 remembering me reading that part and always going 🤨
I think the storm is so bad, you just don’t see the sun. He said the winters used to be normal, but now they’re irregular due to magic/the Others.
The hour of the Wolf is just before dawn.
Off topic, but is it true that Jon Snow placed some fresh corpses in the ice cells and saw if they rose and turned into eights?
If so, here's my idea; I thought that the foundations for the wall was made from the sane6, oily black stone that composed the Seastone Chair, the base rock of the high tower and the five fortresses (in Easos). The rocks are said to prevent the Others from doing their thing. It is possible that the deeper ice cells (where its colder) are also built into the foundations, that's why the fresh corpses never rose up and turned into eights.
It does not have to be as long as the first, but let it be longer than someone can hold it before having to go to the bathroom.
I was just finishing listening to the previous livestream when I find this uploaded. Green Hand evening today.
Dave and Maryellen: are you guys no.longer making content? Just found your channel and love it, hope to see more eventually. Hope you are both well.
We had a beautiful baby girl and took a break
My question is, How much of Westeros/Planetos was affected by the first Long Night? And, Does the darkness literally follow the Others? Example. If the Others made it as far as Winterfell, would it still be daylight south of there?
And did Valarians with their dragons help defeat them the first time?
What if it was the other way around.
The Wall is off Ice, dragon's can't fly over it. What if it was meant to keep the Dragons from conquering it.
Also why would icy beings have a problem with an ice wall?
It just doesn't make sense to me.
The Others are the heralds of Winter! They come forth to prepare the world for Winter's coming! Winter marches from the beyond the northern blight to subjugate the world in his icey grip!!!
39:11
15 full seconds of complete silence... you know you can cut that stuff out, right?
This long night happend only in the nord (in the rest for example Dorne)?
So, people are asking about what is making the Others wake up. My theory is that somebody amongst the world of the living is actively waking them, with the plan to ascend to higher power during this period of chaos.
Or, that someone intentionally woke up the Others in order to force them into battle now, while the chance to win a fight against them is not too far gone a conclusion. Say, Rhaegar stealing Lyanna from Winterfell. The goal being to summon the Others while they were still in a state that they could be defeated. Because when the Others aren't actively being forced into combat, they are still growing their strength. Eventually they might become strong enough that the living couldn't hope to defeat them, and so these periods of strife are endured for the sake of avoiding an even greater, more definitive struggle that ends in our extinction.
I enjoyed this a lot. Thanks you guys. It is my hope it gets really dark as well (literally and figuratively).
The three body problem has some possible answers for the long night being preceded by what may be percieved as a meteor and the variable seasons on Planetos.
I feel like the method of Jon s resurrection is what breaks the wall and sends a signal to others to attack
If the others try to get to the isle of faces, will Harrenhall be garrisoned to try and stop them? We know It's still formidable and can hold thousands
Considering the spherical world and all I was wondering if you might think that we’ll see anything about this on the other side of the world (probably around the five forts) or if they end up freezing the ocean and end up in or near bravos (might be how Arya gets back to the main plot?? Maybe) or just any effect the long night has outside of Westeros
One question?
In brans dream chapter... it says he looked north and north and what he say was so terrible his tears burned his face.
Are the others the real threat?
We know with an absolute certainty from chapter1 books of the truth that they exist.
We know some power attributed to r'hllor functions what about The Great Other?
Who or what is the great other?
Do the others worship it? Fear it?
What is the difference between
The Great Other and the Others?
We know that the nights king made sacrifices , but it never specifically said it was to the others. We also know that there was at least one female other. Are there more.?
Do you think we will see Night King perspective chapters?
Unlikely because up to now, there isn’t a Night King in the books
Do you think the others can step on the bridge of skulls? Maybe some type of magic in the skulls (if it's actually made of skulls) stops them.
Did you guys forget that in WW2 at the end, once the Nazi's were defeated, the allies immediately started fighting (Russia and rest of allies)?
I think the extreme cold the Others bring with them tends to be a little farther battle distance, or a bowshot.
I the darkness just goes to a certain point it wold be pointless for the humans to fight back, they just could flee.
Does Stannis die at the Neck or in King's Landing?
the comment that they “bring the cold” makes me wonder if they already have a presence on the south side ala the storm hitting Stanis’ camp
Your mentioning of temperature not changing underground made me wonder if the Winterfel crypts can be some sort of natural Others repellant.
Also, your audio seems to cut in and out for this video. Maybe it's possible some words are getting cut out?
Dany's demise is foreshadowed in her vision in the House of the Undying. Do you think she might get a prologue in ADOS?
You forgot about the obvious POV at the wall... Melisandre; well IF she survives long enough there! Perhaps even some new POV, Tormund or Val could be the obvious choice there...
Concerning the Red Mountains... well, the obvious thing would be because it’s sandstone (which makes sense given the southern side is a desert) and not chalk, like many other mountains. I mean the seat of house Qorgyle is even named that way, even though it’s at least a hundred miles further south, but I guess a lot of castles in Dorne (or city walls) would be made out of Sandstone
It’s not stated in the books but it doesn’t seem like day length is tied to the seasons.
My question is: Bring the others the long night or brought the long night the others?
I have definitely dealt with that Alaskan long night!! Heheheeeee!
I cant wait till the next book and all your presdictions are proven true.
Also do you think that the dead can pass under the wall , thru the endless tunnels. The dead may go all the way to WinterFell and come out of the crypt
But we're told the wall isn't just a physical block, it also includes magical protection, so maybe that would also affect underground?
This is true, but if those who created the barrier didn't know about the tunnels maybe the magic is pointed up. Either way I for one will be glad when we find out.
one can only pass through the tunnels with a member of the NW. member that weirwood mouth?
I’ve always considered The North to represent climate similar to New England/Canada
I feel like thereason the others have not breeched the wall thus far is they were keeping their side of a pact. Once the deal is broken, crossing will be easy for them.
If others go south and it gets warmer in north then the polar ice will melt and the ocean level will rise and the continents will start to drown and if they freeze that water others can move anywhere as it pleases them
My reign is just begun🔥 🐲
Not to bend your ear even more, we have not seen the others and the undead on the same page. We don't see them turn Waymor Royce into a white. Will stays in the tree for a very very long time. When he comes down then Royce gets up. Also at the fist of the first men it's the undead attacking. We don't see a other till days later. Don't know what to make of that, thanks for your time
Love this video.
I think the Others aren't sleeping anymore because the pact had been broken, Nissa Nissa is probably dead or something so they woke up.
I never knew the Long Night wasn't global. I've read the books 3 times now and I've thought it was a worldwide event.
It was global I'm sure. The Qarthine legend of the birth of dragons..the bloodstone emperor and his fallen star he worshipped. I think the long night and the hammer of the waters and the doom are all huge blood magic sacrifices that triggered cataclysmic natural disasters.
I think that most if not all of the people in the north will become Others or be wighted (starks included) and battle against an army of fire wights and fire Others from the burned ruins of Kings landing
The book version will be different, since a book usually doesn’t come out after the tv series. There would be no surprise, which is good because the tv series was obviously disappointing
If the first long night stayed a generation long but the new one just a few month, there must be a major difference.
Will the children of the forest help the humans?
Will there be dragons which weren‘t there before?
Will Azor Ahai be stronger? Maybe Jon?
Otherwise it would just be very lame!
Love you guys
Do you guys think there are actually female Others, or was the Night’s Queen a woman who worshipped the Others as gods, like Crastor did?
essos city of the bloodless men might actual be the white walkers who go by another name
Winterfell is too far south for that one hour stuff but winter there had to have like six or seven hours of light in the dead of winter.
Omg the girl doesn’t know how summer and winter work
I dont think the cotf created the other but enslaved them with magic but now the spell broken and they piss
Epic ideas!!
I predict.......That it will be cold. 😬 lol
There’s only been one long night.
The one coming is the one from the past.
Just ask…
I appreciate your content because you are thought provoking but with just 2 books to go, I can’t see us getting a prolonged Long Night at all.
Prepare for Disappointment, not Winter.
I don't see why most of the next 2 books couldn't be the Long Night. I don't believe this is all going to wrap up cleanly. The final book is called A Dream of Spring, not Spring.
I’m predicting crannogman action
definitely want stannis to fight against Others. it would be disappointing otherwise.
Maybe they’ll halt their advance if they start receiving babies again?
More I watch these videos more I want WoW to come out!
😭😡🥺😩
Take a room noise track recording for about 10 minutes before the recording of voices, then underlay the room track continuously under the voices to prevent the dead space between edits please.