Falling for Littlefinger's schemes puts you into the 98% pile of people who would fall for that. That doesn't mean Ned is stupid, Littlefinger is just better than Ned in this game. And as you clearly pointed out, Ned is not good at policitics and schemes, KNOWS THIS and tries his hardest to change the game into something he can shine in.
He is good at politics just not the best. His fairness and honorable conduct inspires loyalty in most of his subjects. But people with scrupulous moral fiber use this to their advantage.
I can't be the only one who thinks that if he actually -listened- to Littlefinger he would have actually come out on top. The problem is he -DID NOT- listen. :D
@@Rundra yeah, he could have survived for a while until Littlefinger didn’t need him anymore. I think Varys actually admired Ned and would be a better ally
I think a lot of people kind of miss the point with Ned Stark. He's not dumb, but he could be interpreted as having a blindspot: being an honest and straightforward man, he expects people he engages with to treat him as he treats them. For example, with the whole situation surrounding Robert's death, he certainly couldn't have expected a hunting accident, but he might have expected some foul-play (which is exactly what happened via the extra strong alcohol Lancel gave Robert). So, if you look at it from this angle, certainly, Ned seems a bit short sighted. But he's not, because that angle is actually the short sighted one. See, as far as I know, there's only one Lord in Westeros who -even years after his death and his name being dragged through mud and blood- commands such loyalty and respect from his people, that they would engage in a vast web of conspiracy without him even being alive to ask them, all in order to depose his enemies and restore his children to power. Ned isn't a politician, or a monarch. He's an actual leader, who inspires people through his own actions and code. And the only reason why that ever happened, was because Ned held steadfast to it, even when he was surrounded by snakes. To drive the point further, how hard to you think Tywin's banner-men will fight to save his legacy once Cersei's done with it? Ned, on the other hand, has the vast majority of the north still in his corner, even when most of his children are believed to be dead. Even when there looks like there's literally no way for a Stark comeback to even be a thing, the people who followed Ned are risking their lives to make it happen, of their own free will. Truth is, Ned understood things about legacy that Tywin only dreamed he could grasp.
This take is why Ned is the real winner of the Game of Thrones (provided his children end up in reasonable position by the end) - every other ruler is obsessed with the political machinations and wars of conquest. Ned is seen as simple because he doesn't engage in this, but his leadership qualities command a level of loyalty unheard of by any other lord. Does it make his house infallible? No obviously not, but does it mean that they are better placed to withstand the challenges they face? Yes. Robs men proclaim him King in the North largely on the back of loyalty to Ned, Neds name carries Jon through meeting Mance for the first time, and the conspiracy in the North is based on loyalty to the Starks. Only one Stark out of the family we have seen thus far built that loyalty among northen houses, Ned. Ned wins the Game in a meta sense, provided his remaining kids end up in solid positions.
YES! OMG, thank you! I've been saying this for years, but it felt like shoiting into an abyss. I don't know who you are, friend, but you brightened up my day!
People misunderstand Ned in relation to the courtiers at King's Landing, he doesn't actually trust anybody or expect anyone to be straight up with him. He knows everyone is constantly lying to him, he just doesn't understand the depth to which all the conspiracies go and how much clandestine power figures like Littlefinger and Varys have compared to the de jure power he has.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 Also, the schemes Littlefinger & Varys are working on, are on a whole different level. It's not comprehensible to a person of their time period to grasp what they are up to and why or how. How is a man of Westeros expected to figure out that Varys is trying to pull a Merlin and raise an idealized heir to the throne, and then destabilize Westeros to make the realm vulnerable to a Targaryen comeback? Littlefinger's methods are incredibly risky by the standards of their society, involving gambling on subverting the whole political order and no one noticing. In a world where noble families are institutions, and loyalty is centered on a noble patron or liege , who gives you rewards, for someone to do what Petyr does and betray the Arryns and Tullys, who elevated him from nothing, is insane. If, at any point, Petyr is exposed, he is going to be locked out of the corridors of power, and have no protection against some very angry and powerful people and he is taking incredible risks throughout the series, often getting away by luck or the assumption that no one is going to check back on him. What Ned has experienced from Petyr & Varys makes them seem, if not trustworthy, at least reliable. Littlefinger hid Catelyn when she arrived and brought Ned to meet her. He warned Ned about spies at court and helped him find the brothel with Robert's bastard. His actual plan, that explains why he did those things, that he is trying to pit the Starks & Tullys against other families, currently the Lannisters, to destroy them for revenge over Catelyn's marriage, is simply not something believable to someone in Ned's shoes. It's even less believable than the Others returning at threatening the Wall, but I don't see fans denouncing Tywin for being so stupid as to not recognize that threat. Petyr simply has no justification for his hatred and enmity. Catelyn's marriage to Brandon Stark provided the Tullys with an ally of great strength and influence, enabled her son to inherit a powerful lordship and gave her the comfort and safety of a home with a family as rich and powerful as her own. Petyr could do none of that for her or her family. It's like asking the daughter of a billionaire to marry you, instead of the heir to an equal fortune to whom she is engaged, and you come from a trailer park. Petyr is either asking Ivana Trump to move back into his trailer park with him and give up her whole lifestyle, or else was demanding that her father foot the bill to support them in the lifestyle to which she had become accustomed, and also, in do so, cancel one of the most important business deals he had ever made. That he's still holding a grudge to the point of plotting the murder of his crush, her husband and their children, is just beyond reason. But anticipating the scope of Littlefinger's betrayal requires anticipating that grudge. And Ned never really trusted Varys. but Varys never gave him any reason to think he was up to anything. Varys coming to him in private to warn Ned that he had foiled an attempt to kill Robert, and giving him hints as to the murder of Jon Arryn supports his credibility. That Varys legitimately wanted to keep Robert on the throne, because Robert has certain vulnerabilities that can be exploited to to weaken the realm to Aegon can take over, is, again, not something that is reasonable for Ned to suspect. It's important to remember that he held all the high cards when he warned Cersei to flee. It was not honor or fair play that motivated him, but to prevent the deaths of her children. Robert's death and a few other aspects of comically bad luck and bad timing were what caused Ned's downfall, not the mercy Varys attributes it to. At that point in the story, Varys is trying to rush Ned into accepting a plea bargain that is not really in his best interest, so he is exaggerating Ned's failure and leaning on the idea that it was Ned's mistakes, so as to make him question his own judgment and undermine his willingness to die by his principles. That's the source of the idea that Ned warning Cersei was his fatal error - a lie Varys told to trick him into making a bad deal.
Exactly. That's the foundation of my argument. Tywin is perhaps one of the greatest thrones Player of all time (ignoring dragon riders who have artificial, unfair advantage). Tywin FEARED the potential of Ned. He knew that he commands respect and enjoys undying loyalty from almost every Northerner in a way Tywin never will from anyone of any region or family. Ned commands respect from countless houses from every region. Even the legendary Daynes respect him so much, they named an heir after him AND NED KILLED THEIR ARTHUR. But he returned the sword (presumably). Ned is loved by Riverland houses, by Vale houses, and by Stormlanders because of his own deeds, not just his name. When Tywin died, his power died. His legacy carried very little power. YEARS after Ned's death, obscure bannermen from the remote mountains MARCH TO THEIR LIKELY DEATH in his memory and do so with the attitude like they'd never consider anything else. It's for THE Ned's daughter. Dude wants his axe to taste Bolton blood before he dies. Is it better to be feared or loved? Push a man far enough into fear and he'll eventually break. When broken, he's either useless or dangerous. The greater love one has, the greater the power. At some point, the love and respect is so great, that a person will willingly risk ALL for the ones they love. A man that commands fear may be betrayed one day. In fact, it's likely he'll be betrayed when someone is pushed too far and has nothing left to fear from death. I think Ned and Tywin are perfect examples of the pros/cons of love vs fear question. Tywin is the best you can get when you're feared. Ned is the ultimate example of love.
@@burtan2000 Stannis is what happens when you have both.....Ned placed his trust in Robert Baratheon. Tywin placed his trust in Aerys Targareon. These relationships each man had with men from superior more wealthy storied houses (although the Starks and Lannisters are not insignificant houses) is like a tale of the 2nd in commands. Stark picks his brother from another mother Robert Baratheon. Tywin picks his friend from the battlefield Aerys who happens to be more powerful than anyone he has ever met. I agree with you 100 percent about the love people have for Ned. I believe even Ned was willing to extend friendship to the Lannisters. He lets Tyrion read in the Winterfell library which is a huge honour that goes unnoticed by many. Robb's host is a prime example of Ned's legacy being so unifying and powerful that his spirit aids Robb when he is at his most doubtful. The strength Ned had was put into his children. It wasn't wasted trying to control men he found to be his equals via fear or manipulation. Tywin did not view men or his own children as his equals and it shows. Kevan Lannister suffers the same fate as Tywin with the crossbow because he was probably the closest thing to an equal to Tywin and thats what his reward was....
Not only have you given me material to use when writing about a character in one of my fan fiction stories now you have given me an idea for a solid what- if story.
I honestly feel bad for Sansa because she was primarily raised by Catelyn who raised her to be a southern lady. It clearly shows in Sansa’s character that she was heavily influenced by her mother and consider her age she is eleven years old and very naive she doesn’t know much about the real world. Sansa honestly shouldn’t have been told anything in my opinion, in order to leave King’s Landing safely.
Either that, or, as I’ve heard argued, she should have been educated about the game far before ever meeting the Lannisters. Obviously Ned didn’t believe in it, or want to play it, but in doing so he set Sansa up to fail by complete accident. She literally had no way of knowing better.
I would disagree. While children should get passed for being naive (they are children after all), Sansa is kinda dumb. Arya, who is younger than Sansa, picked up on this. And even _if_ we wanna throw Sansa a bone for not being perceptive, it doesn't change the fact that she's seen and experienced the cruelty the Lannisters are capable are. Specifically, Cersei. Even if Sansa didn't remember what happened cause she was drunk, which again, gives her a pass, she listened to Arya's account of the situation. She saw Cersei practically revealing in her pleadful begging for Lady's life and completely disregard it. Cersei gave the _order_ to unjustly kill Lady. I'm not asking her to be as perceptive as Arya, but really, just an _inkling_ of common sense here. Just a bit a distrust. Just enough for her to be even _slightly_ hesitant about telling Cersei everything. But nope! She blames Arya and blabs her mouth like an idiot. Sansa isn't just naive, Sansa is stupid.
Remember being 11 yrs old?! How many children know how the world works? Sansa was a sheltered child. Even with them aging her up most don’t think about the dangers of the world. Her parents knowing how Sansa is gave into her pleas and tantrums (in the show). She was spoiled, yes. How was she to know that her father was going to be murdered?! Most preteens and teenagers rebel against their parents at some point, I don’t care how well you parent your child. All children learn eventually how the world works and from their experiences. Some pick up on it faster than others. I’m not excusing her actions at all but I get tired of the narration that Sansa is stupid. She’s naive and slow at picking up on deceit definitely. GRRM definitely wrote her character well.
@@pamjames9077 I made this comment a year ago dude and honestly forgot I ever made it? But yeah they should have prepared her more and honestly her naive nature is excused both due to her age and the fact that BOTH her parents failed her massively. It’s not that Sansa is stupid (I also hate that narrative) it’s that nobody bothered to educate her properly as to how the world works.
Ned was not stupid by any means. He was not a strong political force like Tyrion, Tywim or LF but considering him stupid or not smart is just wrong. He was definitely smarter than Robert and arguably even Jon Aryn. He could have been a great hand under a good and strong king.
@@forheavensakes9144 I didn't say that Robert is dummy. I said that Ned is smarter than him. I don't think that I need to prove to you why Tyrion is the smartest character in the books.
I think this edmure slander is kinda unwarranted honestly for a couple reasons. 1. Robbs order was to Defend riverrun the battle took place at the red fork which is very close to river run 2. He had an advantageous position and allowing Tywin to cross would compromise that position. It would also make rob trapped between the Lannister forces in the westerlands and the Tywins forces coming in Robb not telling a commander of his army his plans and then getting mad at the commander for not know his plans is foolish. Then he goes and loses the Frey’s by marrying jeyne and then telling edmure he has to do the exact thing he just didn’t
Robb told him to hold Riverrun at all costs and guard Jaime Lannister. He took his army and left Riverrun nearly defenseless if he were to lose and lost Jaime because he wanted glory. Tywin was marching straight into Robbs trap and Edmure took it upon himself to abandon his post for personal gain and ruined not only that, but Stannis taking kings landing too
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand actually interestingly enough edmure left a Frey garrison there that left after what robb did. And again people say about robbs plan in hindsight how was edmure supposed to know that. He even says he thought Tywin would have the upper hand if he crossed the fork cause he would either siege river run or go after Robb in the westerlands and trap him cause he out numbers him 3 to 1. And now think about it in edmure shoes a massive army is about to separate you from your king. Your king has not sent you information about said army moving towards him so you aren’t aware he even knows the movement of that army. And you have only one spot where you can defeat him if he crosses that spot you have no chance and he can siege riverrun if he wanted to.
It’s very straightforward. Edmure didn’t need to know what Robbs plan was. He had a job that was given to him and he abandoned it because he was jealous. The job Robb gave him was important and he was the only one he thought he could trust with Jaime. That wasn’t glamorous enough for Edmure so he took his army away from the place he was ordered to defend at all costs to attack an army that was not threatening the place he was ordered to defend. And the Freys left after Catelyn released Jaime Jaime
The Tully words should be "we are completely unreliable". Another character fans think is dumb but really is not is Jamie. People (including those idiot show writers) are always saying how he is the stupidest Lannister. This is the same guy who saved Brienne's life with quick thinking three times, saw right through the Kettlebacks' false claims of being knights, quickly got the Kingsguard in order within a day of returning to the King's Landing, made a successful plan to free Tyrion, gave sound advice on ruling to Cersei, successfully took Riverrun without breaking his oath to Catelyn, cleaned up the mess the Riverlands had become, and ended the long standing blood feud between the Blackwoods and Brakens all with nothing but seer guile. Jamie is like Ned and Robert in this regard, people think just because they hate playing politics means they can't.
Jamie is smart in that he knows mercy in war will get the people relying on him for protection killed. Mercy is for when you're alone( like Brienne ) or you've won and can afford it. Ned's fate is exactly what mercy in war gets you and why it's so naïve
@@tonysled6796 yeah, but Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure? The Blackfish seems to be the exception, not the rule. Judging by the few Tully’s in the books and show, their words don’t mean a damn thing.
@@BlueberryBumblebees he was influenced by a variety of other houses, battles and experiences. seems like power has gone to the heads of those other Tullys. I think GRRM is showing us that the political marriages as a tool to get power become a habit that when overused make families weak morally and passive
I think that line says more about how Littlefinger feels about the Starks, and Brendan Stark in particular. Unfortunately, the fandom tends to take biased opinions from biased characters as objective fact more often than not.
he was a moron. he brought 2 hostages to kings landing and the only thing that stopped him form brining bran was Jamie throwing Bran from a tower. And he brought like 50 guards... to the place where both his father and brother were killed because showed up and brought too few guards, then he sends half of them off to fall into Tywin Lannister's trap or the city watch. he was epically stupid.
@@user-wg7nw3mh2e In a normal situation, Robert would actually bring HIS men into position of powers. He wouldn't let the Queen Consort have nearly as much influence as she does. It is not Ned's fault Robert transformed King's Landing in a cesspit of Lannisters.
@@user-wg7nw3mh2e 1 not 2 hostages If it wasn't for Sansa Ned would have got out of the city the very next morning He choose to go by a ship so he can't be easily intercepted and within a week he would be in White Harbour and even if Robert had died in the meantime it wouldn't have mattered anymore With Moat Calin fortified the Iron Born would never have taken the North and had Catelyn went straight to Winterfell as she was instructed to do than North would have more time to gather their whole army which might have been near 30000 and not roughly 18000 that Robb Stark led Also I don't think the Westerners would fare much good against Northerners since upto half of the Lannister/Westerland armies are made up of sells swords and freeriders who don't always fight to the bitter end against a determined foe not fighting for gold as the rule goes if you sell your sword for gold you want to keep doing it again and again and avoid dieing for the Lord who payed you
No, he had to have some level of trust in little finger, period. His entire plan depended on little finger having come through with the city watch, and that right there is exactly how Ned and his grand confrontation with Cersei failed. How can you think he didn’t trust little finger when Peter ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish was the lynchpin in his plan to confront Cersei? He was advised by Catelyn to trust littlefinger, and on top of his naïveté, he made a serious and continuous error in judgement. Ned’s cluelessness led him down the path that Jon Arryn followed straight to his death. And he was more experienced in statecraft than Ned, but Ned absolutely had trust in Baelish to make his plans of confrontation with Cersei hinge on Littlefinger coming through.
@@vanessamccool7972 so do you think Cersei trusted Littlefinger? Did Renly? Did Varys? Everyone knows what Littlefinger is. And so did Ned, Ned CHOKED Littlefinger. He knew what he was. Littlefinger is just tricky. He helps you, he harms you, he helps you, he harms you. You just never know what he’s going to do. So no on trusts him. But they use him for whatever services he is offering.
@@girlnettles I don’t think, I’m just commenting on what is factual. We know and can agree that Ned put faith in the weasel, and had to have some level of trust, because he damn sure didn’t incentivize him to do something for him in return for a favor/gold/whatever-he expected that Littlefinger would help just because? What was the reason if he didn’t have some kind of faith, trust, dependence-what would you call it? Since he didn’t trust Littlefinger EVEN THOUGH AS SOON AS LITTLEFINGER TURNED ON NED HE SAID WHAT? Something like, ‘I did warn you not to......WHAT WAS IT AGAIN? OH YEAH-‘...TRUST ME’. But you’re right, I’m wrong. Whatever.
he also shows no intent to prey on other houses...politically he is at the height of Stark worth if we consider King Robert being his most powerful ally. but times have changed and Ned's priorities have moved on to his children whereas some houses are making moves. If we consider how important the North is to the security of the realm Ned is operating on a higher order of responsibility. his punishment of Jorah for slavery and punishment of the deserter shows a level of leadership some other houses have delegated to other lesser lords. He is like Stannis in that the day to day operations govern his movements. Tyrion is similar. These are men who can be killed but literally have to be betrayed to be killed. They wont be beaten easily in open war but their trust in others will always be the point of vulnerability that can outdo them....Jon as well.
2nd comment: The only "stupid" thing I ever felt Ned did was miss a vital hint about the dagger. At the Hand's tourney, The Hound and Jaime faced off during the jousting and The Hound wins their match. Renly and Littlefinger bet on it, with Renly backing The Hound and LF backing Jaime. After the match Sansa says she knew The Hound would win and LF says "if you know who's going to win the second match, speak up now before Lord Renly plucks me clean". Renly responds "A pity the Imp is not here with us, I should have won twice as much". Meaning Tyrion would've bet on Jaime and always does. That's why Renly could confidently say he would've doubled his purse that day were Tyrion there. Therefore Tyrion betting against Jaime and losing the dagger was a lie. This totally flew over Ned's head; in fact he's noted to have smiled about it. Maybe this is Monday morning quarterbacking, but if Ned were more perceptive he would've caught that. Other than that, I agree that his fate was largely the product of forces beyond his control.
I don't think that's quite fair, we know from wider context that this is a pattern of Tyrion always betting on his brother, but from Ned's perspective he's got one bet in favour of Jaime, one potential bet in favour of Jaime, and one bet against him, all from the same source. That's not enough to draw a pattern on without knowledge of Tyrion's character and family relations that Ned doesn't have, and all the info comes from Little finger, so declaring one data point unreliable means they're all unreliable, and we're back to square one.
One detail. When you are talking about Rob and say that Edmoure should have listened to him it's actually Rob's mistake. Edmure was only told to hold Riverrun and stopping the army a few miles south moving against your king it's easily an extension of that. Rob could have told Edmure to let Tywin come after him or to atck his suply lines but he didn't. What was Edmure supposed to do? To asume that Rob wanted to be trapped in enemy land fighting a bigger army? To deduce that the most important lord of the kingdom was kept in the dark from his part to play in the war? I think that an important part to remember about Rob is that at the end of the day he is not his father as he makes many mistakes that he would have not. He sends Theon back to the Iron Islands, he marries Jeyne and makes other terrible decisions as a leader
Yeah, I've heard people go to war over whether or not Edmure did wrong but I feel it is perfectly in line with GRRMs writing that a massive mistake in war was made over a miscommunication. Robb has wolf's blood and is in many ways a natural born leader, but he is still a kid and not experienced enough which is why he makes these obvious mistakes. I also think the wolf's blood was made more intense by his warging into Grey Wind, which might be why he made emotional decisions instead of tactical ones. Getting counsel from his dimwitted mother and the snake Bolton also didn't help.
I'm in the camp that Edmure didn't know the plan, and accomplished a victory by doing what he was told. Hold Riverrun. He should have been told more, or at least not scolded for basically doing his job. Robb just didn't think he was as good as he actually was. What happened there was on Robb, not Edmure. Robb was not an idiot, but he did make mistakes. Maybe he shouldn't have killed the Karstark that murdered prisoners for something they didn't do. Punish, yes, but not behead the guy. He shouldn't have let Theon go. I forget if he did something to make the Boltons leave, or if that was just Tywin convincing them to betray him. I think agreeing to marry a Frey was more the mistake than marrying Jeyne, but that's up for debate. I wouldn't call the Stark men idiots. They're just surrounded by corrupt and stupid people.
@@chadnorris8257 He had no choice in executing Karstarks, he should have kept Theon by his side though. He never made a specific mistake to make Boltons leave but Roose took the opportunity to betray him because he was losing the war. He should have listened to his advisors and kept himself from acting emotionally. Edmure, Roose and Brynden played important parts in the war and should have been lended an ear at all times.
edmure was told to hold his position, not go out and fight a battle he was told to do. he should just follow orders. robb isn't responsible for not giving him a reason beyond the commands
I'm sorry but you're wrong. Do you think Tywin explained his reasoning behind every big decision he made to all of his generals? Especially in situations like this where some kind of feint is involved in the tactic (remember he had a plan with Stannis included)? And with such a straightforward command? Edmure was supposed to hold Riverun, that's what he was supposed to do
I largely agree with you (especially with your main point that Ned isn’t dumb), but it *was* a mistake to send so much of his strength to chase the Mountain. There had to be missteps like that from Ned to make the POV character tragic and believable. Catelyn’s urging Ned to trust Littlefinger, and her arrest of Tyrion are the two main in-world (and non-magic) causes for Ned’s downfall.
As hand of the King an was he (acting regent then??) he couldn’t exactly be seen to get Lords to send their men to deal with the mountain without sending enough of his own men
@@ComradeCommissarYuri of course you can, tell me that Tywin would be afraid of sending other lords men without his own, Roose does it to Robb and sends Robbs men to die in battles without risking hiss own
I agree, Ned was not stupid. He had a sound strategy that didn't survive contact with Murphy, his wife, & his daughter. His "only" mistake was to assume that a piece of paper was of any value without the swords to enforce it.
Ned was THE reason we watched the show. HONOR is the theme of this story-sacrificing for family love, recognition of and gain of honor, and finally, understanding that honor is a good characteristic, not a laughing matter, as it was in the South. My whole interest was seeing the Starks back at WFell and on top.
Robb is basically Napoleon Bonaparte. The dude was winning a war against Tywin Lannister, bypassed the Golden Tooth, smashed 3 Lannister armies (Camp Battle, Oxcross and Whispering Woods) and was cooking up his Austerlitz before Edmure bumbled his way into fucking up. Robb was about to 100% take Moat Calin from the South, something never done before and retake the North. Just like Napoleon, he couldn't be everywhere at once and suffered because of it. Also Robb is crazy good at politics. Dude inspired "Furher bunker" level of loyalty in his men to the point of being forced into kingship by even the River Lords. Catelyn even recognises how deft he is in conversations. Tl:Dr- Robb is far from stupid and he's the fathers son.
I agree that it's mostly the lack of the ability for people to realize that as the audience/reader we know things characters don't and have a much different perspective of the story than the participants of it.
Still dumb. Judge the character of those you afford weaknesses like mercy. You hover a foot over the head of a snake but stop short of crushing it, it’ll still bite. Renly had the right idea. So did Tywin with the Targaryens.
@@Plzcheese how did it work out for them? Tywin killed by his son, Renly by his brother. Being ruthless does not make you smart. Ned was simply unlucky!
to be fair, that has never stopped anyone in that world before. have you ever read fire and blood? do you at least know how the targaryen civil war happened?
@@winstonlewis5630 Selmy didn't need a witness, he believed it was the word of King Robert. In that throne room, Ned was the lawful man in charge, and Barristan knew it. Everyone knew and acknowledged and believed that Ned had been named regent, which is the man with the legal power of the king. Cersei just didn't care, neither did her thugs or the five major losers of the Kingsguard, and Varys, Littlefinger and Pycelle all had agendas that were better served if Ned was removed, so they let it happen, law be damned. Barristan is basically gutless when it comes to right and wrong and the law, until the tyranny affects him personally and he is forced out of his position in disgrace.
Cats actions got jory Cassel killed and he helped Arya and later his father with boats and theon. Sansa tells everyone and literally goes against the saying "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives" line compared to Arya. Edmure Tully nearly caused a huge disaster by attacking the mountain. Lysa poisoning Jon arryn Basically tully stupidity. Little finger and varys already knowing Everything before Ned gets there and Ned STILL had a chance at winning shows Ned was a genius at battle plans. Also most forget but Ned had little finger with a knife. Everyone else thinks little finger is nice in the books which is another plus to Ned not negative. I just feel people think the show showed Ned exactly when it was watered down with all the changes and later male sjw lines they think women would say like Sansa in season 8. Also again Rob was his father's son and STILL was winning the war against tywin and only lost because he wasn't married. If Ned was leading then nobody would lose any battle he had by then.
Robb should have been clear with his plans of war to all his top officer if he had told endure his plan I don't think endure would have but he did have a direct order to stay in place So it's 80% endure fault and 20% Robb fault. I wonder did he tell the blackish or did the blackish just know subconsciously because that what he would have done
@@forheavensakes9144 war changes periodically and edmure was given a direct order to hold his area which he disobeyed and any army would tell you that basically a resignation for not following command. No it's not 20 percent for Rob. Edmure not only fought for the mill but also I mean ALSO gave away the twins by sending all of Rob's men out to the field which then lead to the Frey being free to switch sides as the veiled threat was removed and the position lost which leads to the red wedding as the Frey had time to prepare. If Edmure left these men and Rob got married to another girl the Frey would not do anything as Rob would have more men in the castle by the time they return. Basically edmure messed up so bad twice in both stannis losing and Rob losing for his actions. He had more than enough men to take the mill without the extra men Rob left at the times to keep the Frey in line. It's more so 85 percent emures fault and cat 10 Percent with how she gave up Jaime too. Rob gave his orders and you don't go against orders Reverse of this is how roose(again cat) used that fact to get 2/3rd of Rob's army slaughtered because they follow orders.
@@forheavensakes9144 I said that already. Just telling you how stupid he is and how many people he messed up with every action he took. Because he left. Stannis and Rob were in less favorable conditions and this lead to do many problems down the line. Not sure why you don't know I know this. Also by leaving cat took Jaime and released him because she is so stupid she thinks Jaime would honor his deal just because he said he would. Basically the Tully ruin Everything
I don't think I would call Ned dumb, but perhaps honorable to a fault, and I think that's where his more foolish actions and views came from. If R+L=J is true, he promised his sister on her deathbed to keep Johns real identity a secret. He is not a man to break a promise because of his honor. His honor made his confront Cersei to give her a chance to get her kids and flee, even if the smarter thing would have been to ride after Robert on his hunting trip and tell him everything instantly. His honor and loyalty to Robert is honestly, to me anyways, his greatest faults. In a fight, the one who fights with honor is rarely going to beat the one willing to fight dirty. (This is actually mirrored by the trial by combat for Tryrion in the Eyrie, where Bron who fought dirty beat the honorable knight. It was even commented on how Bron did not fight with honor, but the knight did. And the knight lost.) I actually think its his Honor that caused some of Sansa's faults as well. She knew her "Duty" as a highborn Lady and she did that well. I see people angry at her for the situation with Micah and Lady, but Ned himself explained it to Arya that she was betrothed to Joffrey and has to take his side, even when he is wrong. Yes Sansa is a naive little girl who was living in a fairy tale, but she was also literally pulled in front of the king and queen to call their son, her fiance, a liar. She never even said Joffrey was right, she just said she did not remember what she saw, she tried to stay neutral. Was it wrong for her to blame Arya, yes absolutely, but at that time who could she safely blame? As far as she knew Joffrey was still gonna be her husband, and she still foolishly thought him to be a beautiful true prince. Also it was Nymeria who bit Joff, but Lady died because of it. I think her blame for it was understandable, even if it was wrong. I think the truly foolish one is Cat. In the story she PUSHED Ned so hard to go to Kings Landing, (An interesting change in the show) she became so obsessed looking after her comatose son, she literally ignored her youngest child, and her eldest, who needed her help running the North. She deliberately acted against her husband when she kidnapped Tyrion, and SHE is the one who trusted Littlefinger and urged Ned to do the same, because they where childhood friends. She couldn't see LF's obsession with her, and dislike for the Starks. I love A song of ice and fire because all of the POV characters (And even some of the non-pov) are deep and rounded. I don't think any one character is wholy good or bad (Except maybe Joffrey) and when people fall, you can see how they got there. I loved your video. :) I really enjoy your content.
The explanation about why Sansa had to betray her family because of being betrothed to Joff only happened in the show. In the book, Sansa told her dad the truth of what took place, that's the only reason Ned called for Sansa to tell the king what really happened. Ned was not expecting for Sansa to betray her family & lie for strangers.
And just an FYI:there is a inner monologue moment where cat laments kidnapping Therion and causing all the chaos and she knows it was her fault and regrets it. And it was her sisters fault that went bad for the starks when cat thought she had a ally in her sister. Had she known lysa was crazy she never would have went that rout
@@harsh_1910 lol I was actually talking to them on part one of why cat sucks, I disagree with them. Had to bring it to another video cuz I can’t let it go
@@zacrusk5274 i know and i was saying that cuz if they see cat sucks they'd be blinded by it and heart it. I love cat too (she's probably in top characters in asoiaf for me) and it's just so annoying they keep bringing her up just to hate her, i know it's their opinion and blah blah blah but they need to calm down
Considering the entire point of Robbs story was him winning the battles but he lost the war, Ned was exactly right to pick his battlefield wisely. Being good at politics doesn’t make you any smarter than a battle commander, you’re just intelligent in different ways. A wise man knows his strengths and weaknesses.
The story is a great example of how Truth, and memory, are personal constructs and can never be completely ojective and accurate (e.g., the problems with eye wintess testimony)
Great video! I think the fact that Ned did try to bribe the City Watch shows he's not dumb, & perfectly willing to put practicality over his high morals when the situation demands it.
To be fair to Renly, he acted in his own best interests after realising Ned wasn't ready to act immediately in taking Joffrey in control. Was it selfish? Yes. Does that mean Renly sucks? Not really.
Actually not. The problem is that Renly acted only in his own selfish interest (after having his mind filled with ambition by Loras Tyrell). He is ready to ally with Ned against the Lannisters but only if he becomes king, not for Stannis.
@@str.77 In the books he only wanted to become king after Ned turned him down and Robert died. He had suggested that Ned take the regency and bring the realm under his control with Renly's help. In the show is where Renly's kingly ambitions started even before Robert was dead.
@@kiritugeorge4684 OkayI haven't got that far in the books. But "after Robert died" is irrelevant as all we talk about is "after Robert died". The point is that a Ned/Renly alliance against the Lannisters was prevented by two factors: -Ned being to honourable to either betray Stannis or Renly in view of the more Lannister problem -Renly being to selfish to fight for his brother
@@str.77 Renly was pursuing the most realistic choice as Robert was dying. He proposed that Ned take the regency, get Cersei's kids under his control and take charge of the city the city with their combined forces. So how is it that you accuse Renly of preventing an alliance with Ned when it was Ned who turned him down on the basis that he did not want to act while Robert still breathed? When Renly saw his chances of making an alliance with Ned were not forthcoming he did what any sane man would do, he bolted. Otherwise he would have been held hostage by Cersei to ensure the fealty of the Stormlanders (and probably the Lords of the Reach coz I doubt Loras would allow House Tyrell to rally against King's Landing if Renly was Cersei's hostage) much in the same way the Redwyne twins were held hostage to ensure the fealty of the Arbor. Ned actually doesn't cite honour as his reason for not allying with Renly. He thinks that Renly and his forces wouldn't be enough to take control of the city peacefully and with minimal casualties hence his failed gold cloaks plan.
Agreed, Ned isn't dumb and he was trying to strategize and respond under difficult circumstances. I think one of Ned's downfalls was his naivete. He hadn't permitted himself to consider what type of person Cersei is. He didn't ask himself what type of woman would bear children with her twin brother and to what end would she go to protect that "secret" . He didn't think what would Tywin Lannister's daughter do if I confront her? I think Ned may have been clueless to when it comes to seeing and understanding women... The other thing is Ned could have benefitted from taking some time to learn adapt to the politics around him without betraying his integrity and character.
At least in the show, Ned's actions could be seen completely different depending on who interprets them. For example, many of Ned's actions is just what he does as plainly as Northern culture is known for. If he wants to speak to Robert about the kingdom's troubles then he'll go to him like any friend would consult to another friend. But during the first meeting with the Small Council, this could be seen as a act of favoritism. Or the scene when he orders Beric to assemble a 100 men to detain the Mountain for raiding the Riverlands, to those who know Ned this is a valiant act of justice to deliver punishment to a known robber knight; but to the court it could be interpreted as Ned is abusing his status as Hand to settle his family rivalry with the Lannisters using the King's men. This becomes more clear that the court sides with the Lannisters when Joffery usurps the throne when Ned tries to arrest them but the court does nothing for Ned and arrest him instead for supposed treason. It's because in the eyes of the nobles from King's Landing, Ned doesn't do anything to address what public opinion thinks of him since they don't know or understand him but see him as a man who abused his status as Robert's friend in order to do as he pleased instead of the honorable man he is suppose to be. It's further proof that he was a honorable man but a terrible politician because your honorable actions could be twisted depending on court intrigue and if you don't quell the conspiracy or rumors by using political maneuvering then it blows up in your face before you know it.
Just thinking about this while watching, and this makes perfect sense because Rob being so young and without experience beats all of his battles and that goes to show how Ned would’ve done being that Rob is his oldest son and learned a lot from him. Of course Rob had many seasoned north men giving him council but still
Once Catelyn and Sansa pulled their dumb shit, Ned was behind the 8 ball. They put him in a hole that was damn near impossible to get out of. Not sure if this happened in t he book. But Ned saying Catelyn took Tyrion on his order was stupid.
I will say ned should've known not to tell Cersei that he knew her children were Jaime's and not Roberts. I get he didn't know Robert would die but he knew Cersei was cruel. He should've waited to tell Cersei, it would've been best if he waited til Robert t come back from hunting.
People think he’s stupid because they have the advantage of watching the show from an outside perspective. If you suddenly were selected as say the president/prime minister out of nowhere (assuming you’re not already in politics) then you would absolutely have an ideal vision for your country and would underestimate how hard it is to enact your vision.
I mostly agree, especially about how Catelyn had a huge part to play in Ned's fall. I think the one massive mistake Ned made was that he did underestimate Cersei, twice. It never occurred to him that Cersei would and could kill Robert or that she would manipulate things to ruin him after he became regent. He was a man of his time and place, and it did bite him in the butt. In all fairness, Robert made the same mistake.
Good point about Cersei already having the plan in motion to kill Robert before Ned spoke to her. I also agree that Ned would have won or at least been in a better position if Sansa hadn't gone to her. If Ned saw her and Arya sail away on the ship he hired, he never would have confessed to a crime he didn't commit. So even if everything went the same, Ned could have been traded for Jaime because he still would have been alive rather than being executed at Baelor's in an attempt to save Sansa.
You're being really unfair to Edmure, he wasn't aware of Robb's plan which is one of Robb biggest mistake. All he knew was "defend Riverrun" and that could include his land as well. And as lord paramount of the Riverland he can't just let Tywin pass, he a decent guy who care for his people. And to his credit he is the only one who beat Tywin in the field. I feel like we see him as an idiot because Cat sees him that way in her POV.
Yep a lot of characters give off the edmure is stupid and it’s honestly weird. Like he’s supposed to read your mind. The show is a lot more direct with it he disobeyed a direct order and it cost them. But In the books they get mad at him for doing what they told him to do defend riverrun
@@winstonlewis5630 And the guy is the only one in the entire story to let his peasants inside his walls and go lead the battle himself. That deserve some respect.
I think he is just seen as an incompetent idiot. Not to be trusted with anything more complicated than 'stay'. We didn't actually see the orders being given but I would suspect they were quite clear given the anger over his disobedience.
@@winstonlewis5630 He's not defending Riverrun. The Red Fork flows from southwest to northeast, toward Riverrun. The bodies from Edmure's battle drifted downstream past Riverrun. That means Tywin had already got PAST Riverrun to the south, and that was where Edmure was fighting him. Edmure was not stopping Tywin from attacking Riverrun, he was stopping Tywin from retreating out of Edmure's kingdom. Imagine if in World War 2, the Allies had landed an army in Northern Germanyand were attacking the German industry, so the Rommel and the armies in France had to abandon the country and return home to defend their power base, but DeGaulle fortifies and defends the bridges over the Rhine to prevent the Germans from leaving France. You'd better believe Eisenhower and Churchill would be livid, especially if it meant that Rommel was somehow then available to transport his army to Russia and capture Moscow, knocking the Russians out of the war.
Robb's mistake was not telling Edmure why he should let Tywin cross the river. A commander with an independent command needs to know your strategy. Also Tywin not crossing the river is not as important as people claim
I mean to be fair here , I would blame her too. That’s what people do , people don’t act rationally when it comes to grief. It’s easy for us to look at it from the outside and say “Sansa is a dumb brat” but we don’t look at it from her perspective. What would you do if your dog had to be put down because your sister and her dog were wild, you would most likely blame your sister. And it’s not like Arya is perfect ether,she is a brat to in her own right.
@@rayleighsilver8264 Lady wasn't put down bc of Arya and Nymeria. She was put down because Joffrey attacked am innocent boy and tried to murder Arya. Nymeria protected her and Joffrey was embarrassed that he'd lost the fight he started. So he and his mother demanded blood. Sansa initially blamed Cersei and Joff, as was reasonable, but decided that she didn't want to be angry with them because she thought they were pretty. So she shifted the blame to Arya, who she doesn't care about. Sansa isn't stupid. She's selfish and reframes reality to get what she wants. The way she initially put the blame in the right place proves that.
@@winterwolf7423 hmm true but can you blame her ? She is just a kid, being selfish is what kids do, and it’s not exclusive to her ether,Arya is selfish, Joff is selfish etc it’s in their nature. and she is a kid that went through grief, she didn’t know how to direct her anger.
@@rayleighsilver8264 yes, I can blame her for the reasons I already listed. Sansa knew that the right people to blame were Cersei and Joffrey, but decided to stop blaming them so she could get what she wanted through them. It didn't matter that Joff tried to murder her sister or that he attacked another child, directly leading to his murder. It didn't even matter that Cersei and Joff killed her pet. All that matters to Sansa is Sansa and those she deems worthy of her regard. How you can call Arya selfish when she goes out of her way to help people other than her self, I can't understand. I'm sure any explanation for that view will go against canon.
@@winterwolf7423 it's wild to me how people will change younger Sansa's narrative to "oh, she knew she couldn't displease the prince and queen! She knew the political consequences of going against joffrey!" when her words were right there. She truly believed that "beauty equals goodness". Like, she's either a political mastermind at age eleven or she was a sheltered girl who trusted pretty people over her family. They can't have it both ways.
Ned definitely wasn’t as dumb as some fans think but a huge part of why he accepted the job of hand was to protect Robert from the Lannisters so any plans that depended on Robert not dying definitely shows a blind spot.
Not really. As long as joffrey is a minor it's in the lannisters best interest to keep Robert alive. Nobody want the instability of a regency. Especially not while there are still targaryens around. What Cersei did was pretty darn stupid.
@@thehighground3630 yes, it was NOT the Lannister master plan to kill Robert. Only Cersei wanted him dead, Tywin only moved against Riverrun after Tyrion was taken and the various stark-Lannister disputes throughout the first book.
Ned is idiot because he have absolutely no back up plan, he just assumes people will respect his authority despite having less money, politic pull, men and despise being in enemy territory… He had so many options but he chooses to do nothing and trusts all the wrong people.
"Ned was in no position whatsoever to deal with the situation". While there's truth in that, I think he was in the exact position Catelyn wanted him to be in. Per her own admission, she knew precisely how dangerous King's Landing was because of the Lannisters; appealing to that factor out of alleged concern for Robert was how she manipulated Ned to go there in the first place. And once he was there, she did everything she could to escalate that danger. Which I believe was deliberate because she never got over him "dishonoring" her, so his life was of little consequence now that Robb was nearly a man grown and could rule Winterfell in his own right. As were her daughter's lives, given that she'd already parted from them in her heart. Her words, not mine. I know where you all stand on the Stark sibling's birth statuses, and while I disagree about MOST of them, I do agree that Robb was a bastard. I've long suspected that Robb is Brandon's son, and that there was something in the letter Cat received that made her think that information was coming to light. Hence her burning it before Ned could read it, and her desperation to secure Robb's birthright at all costs from that moment on. Not to mention her personal honor, and that of her House, was on the line. As I already stated Ned's life was forfeit to her so his welfare wasn't a consideration in her plans.
@@KingOfWinter It could also explain Hoster Tully's insistence on marrying Catelyn immediately after Brandon's death. Having an unwed daughter pregnant by a man executed for treason...he couldn't let that stand. Which, if you believe in N+A=J, would make the situation all the more tragic. Now, in terms of supporting evidence for C+B=Robb...In ASOS Robb laments to Catelyn his failure to conceive a child despite his numerous attempts to do so. Cat says "It does not always happen the first time", then thinks to herself "though it did with you". How could she know that unless she only slept with Robb's father once? Does it make sense that Cat only slept with Ned once in the 2 weeks he remained at Riverrun after the wedding, knowing full well he needed an heir because was going to war and could die? Or does it make sense that she slept with her betrothed Brandon before their wedding and it was only that one time because he then got jailed and executed? Brandon, who we know engaged in sex out of wedlock and prided himself on taking the maidenheads of high born ladies?
@@ashleyofnaath I used to be a fan of this theory. It makes a lot of sense but the timeline does not work. I think if this theory is right Cat should have been 4 or 5 months pregnant by the time of her marriage to Ned and that would have made an issue for sure!
@@bmirkhanzadeh Do we know for certain that much time passed between Brandon's death and Ned/Cat's wedding? I've never seen where in the text it definitively states how much time passed.
Sweet a video. Just had my birthday a few days ago. Before seeing video Ned is probably the smartest person in the short time we see him. He perfectly guessed a women poisoned Jon arryn. Made battle plans that would have made the north stand a better chance at war if it were to happen. Knows a lie can be honorable as he used it on Jaime to not make it look like he had no control over cat and taught his kids that lesson too. Raised jon and cats kids as actual siblings despite how horrible cat is and confirmed she makes Jon cry(horrible person she is) and even saw the gold problem in kings landing immediately despite how bad the counselors are as they were never on Roberts side seeing little finger and varys. Even in death he is still ahead of a lot of people and his deeds are still useful like with the mountain clans and loyalty of the north as well. Yeah Ned is not dumb but the community looks down on honor and prochecy but somehow don't when it's about rhegar and lyanna because they are as stupid as Romeo and Juliet are
@@johnnyskinwalker4095 not lying would show something much worse in having no control over cat so tywin and anyone would take advantage of it. It's basically like rob who is trying to win over the respect of his army despite being so young. It's appearances
I still don’t get why Hand of the King needed to send 20 of his personal guard to deal with the Mountain. Worst case scenario, houses in the Crownlands owe fealty to the Iron Throne. Send a raven or rider to Stokeworth and Rosby if you need men fast and you somehow can’t manage to in a city of 500,000.
I don't know if Balon cared about Theon or not, but I believe that Balon started planning to attack the North only after he heard Theon was on his way to the Iron Islands. Balon was dismissive and only gave Theon a small part to play, but Balon also gave Theon what he should have been the safest and simplest of tasks to his least experienced commander and heir. Compared to what Tywin did to Tyrion on the Battle of the Green Fork it seems like Balon has Theon's safety in mind. Theon could have been sent on a suicidal mission like holding the left flank if Balon didn't care about him.
It actually makes sense in history of the Greyjoy’s. My memory is kinda off but I’m pretty sure During the Greyjoy rebellion balon had a son that attacked a castle in the north and died doing so. That could have played a big part in why he told theon to take it easy he’s starting another rebellion and the last one he did killed all his sons. At first glance (and how the show makes it seem) it seems he thinks his son is incompetent but it could just as easily be he doesn’t want his son to be killed
Ned isn't dumb and also another misconception is that Ned is an 100% good guy. The Starks, specially in the books, are representatives of a dark magical force from the old gods that requires human sacrifices etc and he is of course the Lord in a very oppressive and unjust political system. Hell, the first chapter of the book is about Ned beheading a guy who was telling the truth XD Reading his chapters you can see that he was really planning all his moves and consequences as well as an isolated Northerner could. Also I think the chapter where he warns Cersei indicative that he could have won the game if he wanted, if not for his mercy. Just as he could have tried to take the throne back when he arrived at King's Landing after the Mad King died. To me above all Ned had 2 things going for his character: His absolute love for his children and his duty to uphold his Stark values, those 2 things got him killed, not his intelligence
He knew his own strengths which is more important than being intelligent (or not). I'd say Ned was not politically talented at all but that he was aware of that. That's why he tried to escalate the conflict out of KL. Catlyn ruined that however, by speeding up events through her actions of insanity.
Ned was politically talented in the sense that he was a diplomatic man, who made friends easily and was well respected. He was also almost loved by his own bannermen and subjects. He just wasn't quite the master schemer that other characters were, and in a place where he had very little power (far from his land, and men in a different culture and religion that his people had little interactions with). Cercei is probably more boneheaded than Ned ever was, but has power through her family that kept her safe in Kings Landing. Simply put Ned was a good ruler and clever man, he was just put into an almost impossible situation which he almost got himself out of - only for his wife to fuck it up.
Ned was politically talented. Him buying off the gold cloaks shows that. The Lannister's were just one step ahead in terms of their plan of killing Robert
@@rebornstillborn The problem with Ned was that he assumed everyone held the same honor code as himself. Never did Ned try to see how the players in this new environment tick.
20:56 the key there was Renly also wanted to steal awayJoffrey like Cersei did Sansa. Yes, the books said to take custody of Joffrey and Ned didn’t want to scare the kids.
Ned does the trope where you immediately tell your enemy everything the instant you realize who they are. Like, in a show where they are detectives, your learn the murderer is a double agent, your very partner!!! According to the trope, even tho you guys are alone at a crime scene, you immediately confront them, telling them you know everything, and asking them to cuff themselves and surrender, and you probably don’t even draw your gun lol. And of course they just shoot you. That’s the stupid trope, it’s like the reverse of when a villain tells the hero their whole plan cause they think they have won, it’s the hero doing it this time, they are like a dumb robot that can’t defy rules or honor or think, no way they could go get backup or run away or ambush, they have to try and arrest them on the spot because they can’t fathom lying or that their partner could turn on them. That’s the stupid but well meaning tragic hero trope. Ned fell into that trope fully. Confronting cersie and telling her his plan then threatening her but then expecting her to just surrender herself, it was basically committing suicide. At the very least it’s a declaration of war, that he does with no forethought or follow through.
I see what you mean about it being set up perfectly, he didn’t suspect cersie and wanted to protect the kids, but he really very underestimated what cersie is capable of.
I'm willing to bet a lot of people who think Robb Stark is dumb just watched the show. Because ok yeah, hitting it off with the battlefield nurse is fairly silly, but the book version....yup honorable move.
I’ve always said, Ned is very smart but also a very moral person and he’s just more moral than smart that doesn’t make him dumb it makes him a well written character
Ned’s not stupid…. I’d say he’s a parallel to Barristan Selmy in Mereen. Not a complete moron, but also starting wars while trying to be honorable. Which I think is the point. There’s no such thing as an honorable war, war is brutal. Also telling Tywin he’s on his shitlist was a pretty stupid thing to do. Even if Cat started it.
I agree with 99% of what you said; Ned was very intelligent and it was because of Catelyn and VERY treacherous characters in King's Landing that led to his downfall. He had no idea how filled with vipers the city was. But two things: 1) he was very open about his investigation into Jon Arryn's murder, even though he thought the culprits lived in the same castle, and trusted people like Grand Maester Pycelle. 2) I still think Ned telling Cersei that he discovered her kids' bastardy was a very stupid move. It was an incredible and unnecessary risk; he didn't have to know that Robert was about to die from a boar, but he could have the foresight to see that the Lannisters could arrange to have Robert killed some other way, like poisoning his wine. He came to King's Landing because he thought the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn after all. He also didn't connect the dots that there was a Lannister with Robert at that very second. Who knows what he would be capable of. They could have also just killed Ned. You NEVER tell your enemy your plans, no matter how foolproof you think they are. He backed Cersei into a corner, and desperate animals do dangerous and rash things. He's not STUPID per se, but his emotions and reluctance to see kids killed clouded his judgement and led to many more kids being killed (also, he refused to compromise on anything. He was a good ruler and his decisions were very logical, but made a lot of enemies)
Robb marrying Jayne was also the result of Stoneheart-in-waiting's power hunger. Robb did tell her to go and arrange a Frey marriage, but she wanted to stay close to seats of power she flat out refused. And "staying close to dying father" is also a load of her favourite emotional manipulation techniques, as when offered to play power games with Renly, she was easily persuaded to go. Of course, being Catelyn, she shone in her usual way, managed to tell Stannis, who was the most accomplished commander in the Realm, and Renly, who had a huge army behind him, that they behave like children, and should have had their heads banged together and sent to their rooms - a pinnacle of diplomacy, Tully style...
For starters, it was Catelyn who did exactly what she warned Ned not to do, trusting Petyr (who she hadn’t seen in 20 years). Ned trusting Cat didn’t help. You have to give LittleFinger credit, he took out both of Catelyn’s Stark betroths. Petyr manipulated Brandon back in the day and Ned to start our story, directly leading them to their deaths.
Petyr was battling death due to the injuries Brandon caused him. There is no textual evidence which could prove that Petyr manipulated Brandon. Brandon was off to KL after brutalising LF. LF wasn't even a schemer back then, just a love struck puppy who can't fight. He developed into a schemer in the aftermath of his duel, after he recovered.
@@subarnosinha8042 Logistically their paths easily cross during this time, but there are some hints within the text. Who else had the motive? The motive to convince Brandon that Rhaegar specifically kidnapped Lyanna? Even hot headed Brandon was unlikely to go threatening the Mad King’s son without being specifically told this was what occurred. Rhaegar and Lyanna likely were unaware this was the story being told. The best lies contain nuggets of truth.
The two things that Ned could have done was to solidify allies and explain to if not everyone, then key players what is going on, why he is making these moves and what needs to happen. I'm mostly talking about after Robert was dying, sending letters to every lord saying that Stannis is the heir because Robert only had bastards. And before Robert dying, contacting Stannis to come to kings landing with a sizable retinue to reinforce Ned's personal guard (as dragon stone is far closer to Ned than any other ally) with a man who he could trust to do his duty. Those are the only things that Ned could have plausibly done with the information he had at hand. If Stannis was in Kings landing before or right after Robert's death, Ned wouldn't need the gold cloaks. I will say Ned wouldn't be subtle if he did what I'm suggesting
Have you ever thought about doing a video about Ygritte? I know that there is not a lot of information on her, but you usually manage to find some unique takes and delicious tinfoil on basically every character. The show kinda ignored her after she died, but in the books, she had quite the impact on Jon beyond the grave and even the early seasons had some really good scenes where she and Jon talk about the Free Folk.
People think dying means ultimate failure and the values and ethics of the individual in question are to blame. That's not digging into characters and details at all. Another character that commonly gets that sort of treatment is Boromir from LOTR. Odd how Sean Bean played both but the character of Boromir is so much more complicated than "he betrayed Frodo and died failing to protect Merry and Pippen." I'm like... "No. Sure, he was tempted BUT he automatically knew once Frodo had ran that he had messed up. He yelled that he was sorry several times... then in an act of selfless courage he held off a huge lot of Uruk-Hai and gave his life trying to protect them. He apologized to Aragorn and confessed his attempt to take the ring to try to retain his honor." If anyone understood how watching his kingdom of Gondor win small victories and take huge losses to the East might change a mam... they'd understand how desperate Gondor had become and that even in the heart of their greatest hero, he might consider trying to use the ring to save them all. I know that was off topic but I thoroughly enjoyed your podcast :) I too have had to defend Ned from those sorts of accusations. They say it's proof in some sense that honor, truth, and duty are dead in the world. I will tell them to come here and listen then!
I feel bad for Ned. His own family took selfish steps to put his life in danger. Sansa not telling the truth about Joffery attacking the butcher's boy. And Catelyn abducting Tyrion. These two moves made him look life a fool in Kingslanding. A family man of honor that he is, he took it upon himself.
@@hitesh_blues2353 im not disagreeing, im just adding more credence to your argument, by mentioning something that you didn’t. i am completely in agreement with you. i just didn’t frame it very well looking back upon it.
If Ned acted after Robert naming him Lord Protector of the Realm... And Ned is killing / fighting With people as Robert lay dying... And word of it made its way to Robert.... I feel like Robert would know Ned good enough to know that Ned isn’t doing it maliciously or to just eliminate a potential rival... I feel like Robert would know, if Ned is killing people while He lay on his deathbed, it’s for a damn good reason... And would probably be pissed be couldn’t be fighting with Ned... Just a thought... I agree... Ned is no dummy
Ned only had like 10 people in King's Landing, the best case scenario is for him is to send his guards as messengers to most of the Lords in Westeros armed with the evidence that Cersi's kids are bastards. If anything happens to Ned, everyone at least knows that Stannis is the mannis, and the Lannisters are everyone's enemy. Ned failed to do the thing that would cover his butt which was also the thing that would have won Stannis, and thus his own family, the war.
Even before I've seen the video, I agree - I've never thought of him as dumb. As far as Littlefinger goes, Ned's own wife even was sure he could be trusted.
Edmure did nothing wrong, if one is ordered to hold an area and it looks as though the enemy is amassing troops there, likely preceding an attack, it makes complete sense to beat them to the punch. OTOH, if Robb specified that Edmure must not attack, that Tywin needs to leave because he sees greener grass, not because his nose was bloodied. Regarding Ned, did Cat & Sansa just become bat-shit traitors? They had to have known they couldn't be trusted. What Renly did was smart, he had a very small force and would have been at least permanently imprisoned there if he remained, he went to where he was surrounded by a ton of his men. In order to pull off the coup they would have only had to secure Joffrey and Cersei, that could have been accomplished with minimal bloodshed. If he's that concerned about Robert's feelz he shouldn't have just loaded him up on poppy milk and strong wine, and did what he had to do. He also would have been well served to text Stannis the moment he got to KL.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand And yet a good commander without being told the strategy was specifically to lure Tywin back would surely think - hmmm this massive enemy force is about to trap my leader and his raiding force in their home territory while they outnumber my boss nearly 4 to 1. Boss man didn't have this in mind when he issued my orders to stay put. I best put a stop to it before he's overwhelmed and crushed. Robb bares the responsibility for that one. Your army commanders NEED to know your strategy, especially in a pre-telegraph/radio war. Otherwise they can't react as you need them to to changing circumstances.
@@jamescole1314 edmure should have known robb has a plan when he went west with his whole army. Edmure is older not younger, and should have known that robb isn't just raiding the westerlands for the lulz. His order was to hold the castles. If he wanted to save the smallfolks and retreat them back to riverrun or send some men to ward off attacks on nearby villages, that's fine. But amassing all the riverlords and their armies to fight tywin at the fords is far off from robb's order. Like in hindsight, does edmure think robb is dumb enough to raid the westerlands and not expect tywin to go back there and defend his homeland
@@terryderry_ Yes, Edmure was older and Robb younger. That is why, like everyone else who was older, assumed the Young Wolf was simply out to punish Tywin for all the raiding Tywin did in the Riverlands. Because that is how a young commander usually thinks. How the hell was he supposed to know Robb had a master plan that would make Aegon the Conqueror look like a 3-year old? It is no one's fault but Robb's. He was playing 4D-chess all by himself, whilst all his friends and enemies alike were playing 3D at best.
@@hammer3721 not to mention capturing tywin, who had at least as many cavalry as Robb and 15k infantry with 4k-6k cavalry in an ambush in Tywin's own lands is a damn crack pipe of a plan. There was no way for Edmure to know that was Robb's plan, there was no way for *ROBB* to have had that as a plan when he left, and the odds of it actually succeeding where exceptionally slim. Tywin is not Jamie to run off chasing Robb's horse with a significantly smaller contingent of his own, and he has at the least parity in number of horse as well. Tywin commands the reserve, he stays out of the battle, and is a cautious commander, traits that make capturing him exceedingly difficult.
Thanks for this, well said! It kills me how everyone online says Ned is dumb, but completely overlook the fact that he's not a slimy politician. He's a man of honor and morals and bases his decisions on that. Those who don't understand have to ask themselves who's really the dumb one.
Thank you! Ned gets faaaaaaar too much crap in the fandom for being dumb. And I'm like yeah okay the guy who was instrumental in winning two wars and who has almost universal respect from his bannermen is an idiot lol
Thanks for this. Ned was aware of what might happen and did what he did because it was right. Doing the right thing when it is hard or inconvenient isn't being stupid.
Yeah I know it is annoying as hell. And considering the universe he was a very benign ruler, I mean he didn’t kill Barristan Selmy at the urging of his banner man Roose Bolton for one thing as well.
Sending out barrick dondarion was actually a politicaly smart move. He sent them out flying the kings banner, roberts banner. He was bating the lanisters to attack them, by doing so theyd be attacking the crown. He could then label them rebels and traitors, and call tywin to court to answer for his bannerman. The power Ned was using was the power to dicdate who is a rebel and who carries political legitimacy. The legitmacy of the crown is super important in determining who supports which side. Had robert lived, tywin would be in clear open rebellion against the crown
So Renly was supposed to hang around to watch a brother that barely likes him die and then share a black cell with ned after????? Ned turned down his swords and he made the only smart move and left like a thief in the night
He ended up in the field with a hundred thousands swords and was in such a strong position he could only be taken out by a Deus ex machina. I know which guy I'd have followed if I had the choice
I always theorized that Aegon will strangle Cersei. We know she's murdered children before, maybe Aegon discovers she ordered Clegane and Lorch to murder Elia and her children gruesomely out of jealousy.
@@branphillips9546 Also Cersei was like… 15-16? I doubt people like Clegane would take an order from a 15 years old girl to murder a princess without confirmation from Tywin. Tywin got his daughter in the royal family because this business couldnt be done cleanly. Robert didnt want to do it, but Tywin was there to take the blame(or part of it)
@@justadult3493 They would if it's their liege lord's daughter or if they got paid or if it sounded fun. Do you think Tywin Lannister looked at Gregor Clegane and Lorch then thought, "Ah yes, a giant mad dog and a fat coward; perfect assassins!" No, Tywin would've wanted Elia and Rhaenys alive to buy peace with Dorne. Aegon was the only threat to Robert. Rhaenys' claim (which only Dorne would support) would've been renounced in return for peace and safe passage to Sunspear.
@@branphillips9546 Tywin didnt need peace with Dorne. Tywin needed a crown on his daughter’s head. Robert couldnt live with beggar claimant across the world, he wouldnt tolerate two actual claimants with support of Dorne in Westeros. Basically, Robert wouldve killed them anyways. But instead, Tywin did it to win favors with the new King. Tywin is a pragmatist, Robert was a rising power, Dorne and Targaryens were falling ones. Why would he flinch a finger to support them? Back to first point, killing a Princess and heirs to throne isnt a something one would do without a powerful person behind it. Cersei was just a 15 years old girl
Robb Stark was probably roofied into the Jeyne bullshit - he was injured and drugged out of his mind for the pain, and the Westerlings got rewarded after the war.
The only thing is, when N confronts C, he thinks she killed Jon Arryn, the former Hand and his and Robert's 2nd father, for figuring our that her kids are bastards. It's impossible to view the situation completely without hindsight, but it's still a little naive to confront the woman you think killed your predecessor for the same reason you're about to confront her, and not expect some sort of reprisal. But other than this, I completely agree, the Tully women got him killed.
Thank you for your videos, I usually watch them several times. That said; A person can be intelligent and still do something stupid. This whole series is based on people doing things they definitely shouldn't do but do it anyway. Ned confronting Cersei gives her warning; whether she planned Robert's death or not before this moment; she definitely had time to move her timetable up; the rift between the houses had already been established because of Catelyn. The King's Wood isn't actually that far from King's Landing no matter how long Robert wants stay. Cersei can send someone there... the moment Ned confronted Cersei meant there was no way Ned was leaving with his honor in tact. Cersei only needed to discredit him and planned on sending him to the Night's Watch... even Cersei grasped the danger of enraging a whole kingdom against her. That said Ned should never have confronted Cersei; because if he is outnumbered by the Lannisters then his buddy Robert is outnumbered too.... a great commander, which Ned is, should have understood that and acted accordingly; which means not letting any of your enemies know anything..... Ned's decision is a real time example of Tywin's argument about killing on the battlefield or at dinner. Plus, it drives me nuts how many times female characters in this series get underestimated by readers.... Cersei despite being a horrible person and vain isn't dumb or less intelligent than her male counterparts that includes Ned. Most of the characters that are female are as intelligent or more than the males surrounding them. Even Sansa, despite her flaws, show a remarkable ability to adapt to situations her father would not or will not handle. Ned has a moment where he does something incredibly dense because of his emotions. It's not stupid; it's human and that's the hallmark of this series and characters that makes these interactions between characters so rich and worth reading.
What people don't seem to realize is Ned already won the game of thrones once to put Robert on the throne, he was a top 5 player during that time maybe even the MVP. Furthermore it is Ned's schemes that produced all the RLJ, RLA, RLD, etc speculation not to mention the controversy about Jon's parentage which might be the biggest secret in westeros. So if you think Ned is stupid I have to question your own IQ. A craftier player wouldn't have given Cersei the heads up but that's like half a mistake the rest is caused by Cat, Sansa and LF. Cersei was truly against the ropes and it's not like you can casually attempt regicide whenever. Ned's other mistakes are: not going straight to dragonstone to confront Stannis and ask him what gives, and not accepting Renly's offer to stage a semi coup, the rest was force majeure.
Cat didn't cause any defeat. She turned a position of weakness into a position of strength. The smart thing for the Lannisters is to complain to Robert about Tyrion's arrest and demand a trial. This is what Tyrion says. Attacking the Stark-Tully alliance is the dumb move but that's what Tywin did. If Robert lives, Ned does not even need to tell him about the twincest, once news of Tywin's actions in the Riverlands reaches court, the hammer of a united Westeros is coming down on Tywin's head. Catelyn failing to anticipate Tywin's overrunning the Riverlands is basically her expecting Tywin to be more intelligent. It's the same thing with Ned & Cersei: the smart thing for her to do is run. If she had, Joffrey would still be alive, Myrcella would still have both ears and she and Tommen might have lived to puberty. Also, with Robb & Balon Greyjoy. Of all the factions in the war, Robb is the only one who was not in complete opposition to Balon's own independence and coronation. Accepting his offer of alliance was the most sensible course of action. The Starks are repeatedly stymied by their opponents doing dumb, short-sighted things that bring everyone to grief, because they don't realize they are just dooming themselves a little slower than the Starks. From Catelyn's point of view, she was not starting a war, the Lannisters were secretly waging a war against her family already and have killed her brother-in-law, crippled her son and tried to kill him as well. At least if something causes an open war to break out, the Starks will be able to see their enemies coming and fight them with their eyes open. What's more, her "provocation" is providing her side with a hostage. Expecting Lysa to turn on her is also a huge stretch, because, like with Ned & Cersei, it will just end up with Lysa isolated and alone, with no one she can count on. Nobles know this, and they just DON'T do it, they back their family up to the hilt. By any rational expectation, Catelyn should have come back from her trip to the Vale with a Lannister hostage and a good-sized number of troops committed to the fight. Sansa affected nothing but the physical location where she spent the Lannisters' coup. She didn't give Cersei any sort of heads up or actionable intelligence that affected the outcome either way. Accepting Renly's offer would have been as much of a trap a Littlefinger's. Renly might not be as specifically evil as Petyr and Tywin, but that's just because he's not as smart or urgent in his pursuit of his selfish agenda. Renly can afford to put on a nice face, because he thinks everything will work out for him, right up until he gets shadowbabied. What Renly wants is power for himself and he does not care how he gets it. He also is actively trying to prevent Stannis from taking the crown out of spite, or because he knows Stannis won't let him coast on his family name, and sit on the Small Council without earning it. If he wants to get Ned to oppose the Lannisters, all he has to do is mention the twincest, but he won''t admit it because that will make Stannis heir. He was sitting on that information until he could line up Margaery as Cersei's replacement, and prevent Robert from taking a queen over whom Renly has no influence. If Renly is the one supplying the muscle for Ned's seizure of power, then Ned is going to end up in the dungeon just the same as OTL when he insists on supporting Stannis' claim instead of whatever scheme for holding power Renly had in mind.
@@Gunleaver Hey thanks for shooting a comment to something I said a year ago lol, I'm not in the space of mind to reply but your comment was pretty good.
This is gonna be long, it's a commentary on most of what was said (sorry). Well, in my opinion little finger would've for sure went with Ned. He simply has more to gain that way. Having Cersie as an ally is risky at best. She'll just use him and get rid of him but what's better than having Ned Stark the most honourable man in the world as an ally? He'll never get rid of you just to shut you up and of course he'd have dirt on him. What would the honourable Ned Stark do knowing that a secret as big as buying men to capture the so called children of his friend is a bullet in little finger's gun? Most likely nothing. Even if you disagree the fact that anyone who knows the story will have to think about that question is proof enough of which is safer for little finger. Btw, about Varys, I think that he would've backed up Ned as well. Or at least warn him that Sansa leaked his plans. I'm sure if it. about the question of why Ned let little finger bribe the goldcloaks is (if my memory serves me) is basically just honour. I remember that little finger said something like "you know what should be done but you're too honourable to ask it" (meaning the bribing of the city watch) or something similar. Which I think actually is the case. He didn't want to dirty his hands to that degree. Regarding Ned being stupid. It's actually simple. He CAN play the game of thrones BUT, he chooses not to. He sees through most of it if you read the book carefully. But let's say that telling little finger to bribe the goldcloaks was his fatal mistake. So what? Tyrion in all his glory at playing the game made an even bigger mistake. Only difference is that Tyrion had a brother in the city and that his family ruled over all so no risk to his brother there. So yeah, definitely not stupid.
If Cersei and her children did leave King's Landing, and Robert did come back from the Hunt alive, how on Earth did Ned think that he would talk Robert down from tearing the Realm apart to get them back for cuckolding him? Tywin wouldn't take this sitting down. After the Dany argument, there is no way Robert doesn't punch Ned, since he willingly let them leave and didn't arrest them. That Stannis, a brother Robert hates is now his heir? And Renly (the Lord of Storm's End and not Stannis) will be off to get the Tyrells on board. The Baratheon succession situation would be fascinating to watch.
It's not just the fans who keep saying it, the show itself does it, season 2 mostly Tryion going I"m not gonna be dumb like Ned" when he wasn't even there.
This and "The Starks don't do well in the south" meme really bother me with this fandom. Also Ned wasn't expecting literally every single person he talked to was breaking the law.
Pretty sure Littlefinger already had the Gold Cloaks (or at least some) in his pocket and I guarantee if Ned would have come out on “top” Littlefinger would have never turned on Ned, at least as soon as he did. As soon as Littlefinger realized Ned’s was about to fall he aligned himself with Cersi.
I did. They do not address this. Closest arguement is "Ned didn't know Robert would die on his hunting trip." If I were in his shoes, I would personally place my children on the ship and I would watch it sail away before tipping Cersei to anything. (Especially with Sansa's comments about marrying Joffrey.) Honorable of Ned to try to give her a chance to save the lives of her children, but the timetable for this is completely under Ned's control. He is either: irresponsible or ignorant, and his family suffers for it.
@@LAKESIDE-LIVING Or if it gets right down to it, since Order of the Green Hand thinks so horribly of Catelyn, he's dumb for marrying her and for trusting her after all this time. Ned doesn't have the greatest insight into what motivates people.
Falling for Littlefinger's schemes puts you into the 98% pile of people who would fall for that. That doesn't mean Ned is stupid, Littlefinger is just better than Ned in this game. And as you clearly pointed out, Ned is not good at policitics and schemes, KNOWS THIS and tries his hardest to change the game into something he can shine in.
He is good at politics just not the best. His fairness and honorable conduct inspires loyalty in most of his subjects. But people with scrupulous moral fiber use this to their advantage.
@Lwandile Msiza he did outplay him many times
I can't be the only one who thinks that if he actually -listened- to Littlefinger he would have actually come out on top. The problem is he -DID NOT- listen. :D
@@Rundra yeah, he could have survived for a while until Littlefinger didn’t need him anymore. I think Varys actually admired Ned and would be a better ally
Also, in contrast to the the TV show where everybody distrusts Littlefinger until they don't, in the books everybody trusts Littlefinger.
I think a lot of people kind of miss the point with Ned Stark. He's not dumb, but he could be interpreted as having a blindspot: being an honest and straightforward man, he expects people he engages with to treat him as he treats them. For example, with the whole situation surrounding Robert's death, he certainly couldn't have expected a hunting accident, but he might have expected some foul-play (which is exactly what happened via the extra strong alcohol Lancel gave Robert). So, if you look at it from this angle, certainly, Ned seems a bit short sighted.
But he's not, because that angle is actually the short sighted one.
See, as far as I know, there's only one Lord in Westeros who -even years after his death and his name being dragged through mud and blood- commands such loyalty and respect from his people, that they would engage in a vast web of conspiracy without him even being alive to ask them, all in order to depose his enemies and restore his children to power. Ned isn't a politician, or a monarch. He's an actual leader, who inspires people through his own actions and code. And the only reason why that ever happened, was because Ned held steadfast to it, even when he was surrounded by snakes.
To drive the point further, how hard to you think Tywin's banner-men will fight to save his legacy once Cersei's done with it? Ned, on the other hand, has the vast majority of the north still in his corner, even when most of his children are believed to be dead. Even when there looks like there's literally no way for a Stark comeback to even be a thing, the people who followed Ned are risking their lives to make it happen, of their own free will.
Truth is, Ned understood things about legacy that Tywin only dreamed he could grasp.
This take is why Ned is the real winner of the Game of Thrones (provided his children end up in reasonable position by the end) - every other ruler is obsessed with the political machinations and wars of conquest. Ned is seen as simple because he doesn't engage in this, but his leadership qualities command a level of loyalty unheard of by any other lord. Does it make his house infallible? No obviously not, but does it mean that they are better placed to withstand the challenges they face? Yes. Robs men proclaim him King in the North largely on the back of loyalty to Ned, Neds name carries Jon through meeting Mance for the first time, and the conspiracy in the North is based on loyalty to the Starks. Only one Stark out of the family we have seen thus far built that loyalty among northen houses, Ned. Ned wins the Game in a meta sense, provided his remaining kids end up in solid positions.
YES! OMG, thank you! I've been saying this for years, but it felt like shoiting into an abyss. I don't know who you are, friend, but you brightened up my day!
That’s an amazing point regarding legacy and leadership!
People misunderstand Ned in relation to the courtiers at King's Landing, he doesn't actually trust anybody or expect anyone to be straight up with him. He knows everyone is constantly lying to him, he just doesn't understand the depth to which all the conspiracies go and how much clandestine power figures like Littlefinger and Varys have compared to the de jure power he has.
@@donjuanmckenzie4897 Also, the schemes Littlefinger & Varys are working on, are on a whole different level. It's not comprehensible to a person of their time period to grasp what they are up to and why or how. How is a man of Westeros expected to figure out that Varys is trying to pull a Merlin and raise an idealized heir to the throne, and then destabilize Westeros to make the realm vulnerable to a Targaryen comeback? Littlefinger's methods are incredibly risky by the standards of their society, involving gambling on subverting the whole political order and no one noticing. In a world where noble families are institutions, and loyalty is centered on a noble patron or liege , who gives you rewards, for someone to do what Petyr does and betray the Arryns and Tullys, who elevated him from nothing, is insane. If, at any point, Petyr is exposed, he is going to be locked out of the corridors of power, and have no protection against some very angry and powerful people and he is taking incredible risks throughout the series, often getting away by luck or the assumption that no one is going to check back on him.
What Ned has experienced from Petyr & Varys makes them seem, if not trustworthy, at least reliable. Littlefinger hid Catelyn when she arrived and brought Ned to meet her. He warned Ned about spies at court and helped him find the brothel with Robert's bastard. His actual plan, that explains why he did those things, that he is trying to pit the Starks & Tullys against other families, currently the Lannisters, to destroy them for revenge over Catelyn's marriage, is simply not something believable to someone in Ned's shoes. It's even less believable than the Others returning at threatening the Wall, but I don't see fans denouncing Tywin for being so stupid as to not recognize that threat. Petyr simply has no justification for his hatred and enmity. Catelyn's marriage to Brandon Stark provided the Tullys with an ally of great strength and influence, enabled her son to inherit a powerful lordship and gave her the comfort and safety of a home with a family as rich and powerful as her own. Petyr could do none of that for her or her family. It's like asking the daughter of a billionaire to marry you, instead of the heir to an equal fortune to whom she is engaged, and you come from a trailer park. Petyr is either asking Ivana Trump to move back into his trailer park with him and give up her whole lifestyle, or else was demanding that her father foot the bill to support them in the lifestyle to which she had become accustomed, and also, in do so, cancel one of the most important business deals he had ever made. That he's still holding a grudge to the point of plotting the murder of his crush, her husband and their children, is just beyond reason. But anticipating the scope of Littlefinger's betrayal requires anticipating that grudge. And Ned never really trusted Varys. but Varys never gave him any reason to think he was up to anything. Varys coming to him in private to warn Ned that he had foiled an attempt to kill Robert, and giving him hints as to the murder of Jon Arryn supports his credibility. That Varys legitimately wanted to keep Robert on the throne, because Robert has certain vulnerabilities that can be exploited to to weaken the realm to Aegon can take over, is, again, not something that is reasonable for Ned to suspect.
It's important to remember that he held all the high cards when he warned Cersei to flee. It was not honor or fair play that motivated him, but to prevent the deaths of her children. Robert's death and a few other aspects of comically bad luck and bad timing were what caused Ned's downfall, not the mercy Varys attributes it to. At that point in the story, Varys is trying to rush Ned into accepting a plea bargain that is not really in his best interest, so he is exaggerating Ned's failure and leaning on the idea that it was Ned's mistakes, so as to make him question his own judgment and undermine his willingness to die by his principles. That's the source of the idea that Ned warning Cersei was his fatal error - a lie Varys told to trick him into making a bad deal.
If Tywin Lannister respects you you're not dumb (applies to both Ned and Rob)
@@charlesjohnson3288 ☝️☝️☝️☝️
Exactly. That's the foundation of my argument. Tywin is perhaps one of the greatest thrones Player of all time (ignoring dragon riders who have artificial, unfair advantage). Tywin FEARED the potential of Ned. He knew that he commands respect and enjoys undying loyalty from almost every Northerner in a way Tywin never will from anyone of any region or family. Ned commands respect from countless houses from every region. Even the legendary Daynes respect him so much, they named an heir after him AND NED KILLED THEIR ARTHUR. But he returned the sword (presumably).
Ned is loved by Riverland houses, by Vale houses, and by Stormlanders because of his own deeds, not just his name.
When Tywin died, his power died. His legacy carried very little power. YEARS after Ned's death, obscure bannermen from the remote mountains MARCH TO THEIR LIKELY DEATH in his memory and do so with the attitude like they'd never consider anything else. It's for THE Ned's daughter. Dude wants his axe to taste Bolton blood before he dies.
Is it better to be feared or loved? Push a man far enough into fear and he'll eventually break. When broken, he's either useless or dangerous. The greater love one has, the greater the power. At some point, the love and respect is so great, that a person will willingly risk ALL for the ones they love. A man that commands fear may be betrayed one day. In fact, it's likely he'll be betrayed when someone is pushed too far and has nothing left to fear from death.
I think Ned and Tywin are perfect examples of the pros/cons of love vs fear question. Tywin is the best you can get when you're feared. Ned is the ultimate example of love.
@@burtan2000 wow that's quite in-depth. Never thought about it that way but you may have a great point there
@@burtan2000 Stannis is what happens when you have both.....Ned placed his trust in Robert Baratheon. Tywin placed his trust in Aerys Targareon. These relationships each man had with men from superior more wealthy storied houses (although the Starks and Lannisters are not insignificant houses) is like a tale of the 2nd in commands. Stark picks his brother from another mother Robert Baratheon. Tywin picks his friend from the battlefield Aerys who happens to be more powerful than anyone he has ever met. I agree with you 100 percent about the love people have for Ned. I believe even Ned was willing to extend friendship to the Lannisters. He lets Tyrion read in the Winterfell library which is a huge honour that goes unnoticed by many. Robb's host is a prime example of Ned's legacy being so unifying and powerful that his spirit aids Robb when he is at his most doubtful. The strength Ned had was put into his children. It wasn't wasted trying to control men he found to be his equals via fear or manipulation. Tywin did not view men or his own children as his equals and it shows. Kevan Lannister suffers the same fate as Tywin with the crossbow because he was probably the closest thing to an equal to Tywin and thats what his reward was....
Stannis
Not only have you given me material to use when writing about a character in one of my fan fiction stories now you have given me an idea for a solid what- if story.
I honestly feel bad for Sansa because she was primarily raised by Catelyn who raised her to be a southern lady. It clearly shows in Sansa’s character that she was heavily influenced by her mother and consider her age she is eleven years old and very naive she doesn’t know much about the real world.
Sansa honestly shouldn’t have been told anything in my opinion, in order to leave King’s Landing safely.
Either that, or, as I’ve heard argued, she should have been educated about the game far before ever meeting the Lannisters. Obviously Ned didn’t believe in it, or want to play it, but in doing so he set Sansa up to fail by complete accident. She literally had no way of knowing better.
So women ruin everything?!
It is always the women that destroy men!
I would disagree. While children should get passed for being naive (they are children after all), Sansa is kinda dumb.
Arya, who is younger than Sansa, picked up on this. And even _if_ we wanna throw Sansa a bone for not being perceptive, it doesn't change the fact that she's seen and experienced the cruelty the Lannisters are capable are. Specifically, Cersei.
Even if Sansa didn't remember what happened cause she was drunk, which again, gives her a pass, she listened to Arya's account of the situation. She saw Cersei practically revealing in her pleadful begging for Lady's life and completely disregard it. Cersei gave the _order_ to unjustly kill Lady.
I'm not asking her to be as perceptive as Arya, but really, just an _inkling_ of common sense here. Just a bit a distrust. Just enough for her to be even _slightly_ hesitant about telling Cersei everything. But nope! She blames Arya and blabs her mouth like an idiot.
Sansa isn't just naive, Sansa is stupid.
Remember being 11 yrs old?! How many children know how the world works? Sansa was a sheltered child. Even with them aging her up most don’t think about the dangers of the world. Her parents knowing how Sansa is gave into her pleas and tantrums (in the show). She was spoiled, yes. How was she to know that her father was going to be murdered?! Most preteens and teenagers rebel against their parents at some point, I don’t care how well you parent your child. All children learn eventually how the world works and from their experiences. Some pick up on it faster than others. I’m not excusing her actions at all but I get tired of the narration that Sansa is stupid. She’s naive and slow at picking up on deceit definitely. GRRM definitely wrote her character well.
@@pamjames9077 I made this comment a year ago dude and honestly forgot I ever made it? But yeah they should have prepared her more and honestly her naive nature is excused both due to her age and the fact that BOTH her parents failed her massively. It’s not that Sansa is stupid (I also hate that narrative) it’s that nobody bothered to educate her properly as to how the world works.
Ned was not stupid by any means. He was not a strong political force like Tyrion, Tywim or LF but considering him stupid or not smart is just wrong. He was definitely smarter than Robert and arguably even Jon Aryn. He could have been a great hand under a good and strong king.
Why do people keep saying Tyrion a strong political force?
Robert is not no dummy it was just to easy for him he just didn't care no more. Do you think Tyrion a better player than John aryn?
@@forheavensakes9144 He did pretty well until he was framed.
@@forheavensakes9144 I didn't say that Robert is dummy. I said that Ned is smarter than him. I don't think that I need to prove to you why Tyrion is the smartest character in the books.
@@forheavensakes9144 he knew how to rule. Tyrion as a hand played politics so well that tywin Lannister respects him
I think this edmure slander is kinda unwarranted honestly for a couple reasons.
1. Robbs order was to Defend riverrun the battle took place at the red fork which is very close to river run
2. He had an advantageous position and allowing Tywin to cross would compromise that position. It would also make rob trapped between the Lannister forces in the westerlands and the Tywins forces coming in
Robb not telling a commander of his army his plans and then getting mad at the commander for not know his plans is foolish. Then he goes and loses the Frey’s by marrying jeyne and then telling edmure he has to do the exact thing he just didn’t
Robb told him to hold Riverrun at all costs and guard Jaime Lannister. He took his army and left Riverrun nearly defenseless if he were to lose and lost Jaime because he wanted glory. Tywin was marching straight into Robbs trap and Edmure took it upon himself to abandon his post for personal gain and ruined not only that, but Stannis taking kings landing too
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand actually interestingly enough edmure left a Frey garrison there that left after what robb did. And again people say about robbs plan in hindsight how was edmure supposed to know that. He even says he thought Tywin would have the upper hand if he crossed the fork cause he would either siege river run or go after Robb in the westerlands and trap him cause he out numbers him 3 to 1. And now think about it in edmure shoes a massive army is about to separate you from your king. Your king has not sent you information about said army moving towards him so you aren’t aware he even knows the movement of that army. And you have only one spot where you can defeat him if he crosses that spot you have no chance and he can siege riverrun if he wanted to.
It’s very straightforward. Edmure didn’t need to know what Robbs plan was. He had a job that was given to him and he abandoned it because he was jealous. The job Robb gave him was important and he was the only one he thought he could trust with Jaime. That wasn’t glamorous enough for Edmure so he took his army away from the place he was ordered to defend at all costs to attack an army that was not threatening the place he was ordered to defend. And the Freys left after Catelyn released Jaime Jaime
The Tully words should be "we are completely unreliable". Another character fans think is dumb but really is not is Jamie. People (including those idiot show writers) are always saying how he is the stupidest Lannister. This is the same guy who saved Brienne's life with quick thinking three times, saw right through the Kettlebacks' false claims of being knights, quickly got the Kingsguard in order within a day of returning to the King's Landing, made a successful plan to free Tyrion, gave sound advice on ruling to Cersei, successfully took Riverrun without breaking his oath to Catelyn, cleaned up the mess the Riverlands had become, and ended the long standing blood feud between the Blackwoods and Brakens all with nothing but seer guile. Jamie is like Ned and Robert in this regard, people think just because they hate playing politics means they can't.
You're right. By the way, its Jaime.
Jamie is smart in that he knows mercy in war will get the people relying on him for protection killed. Mercy is for when you're alone( like Brienne ) or you've won and can afford it. Ned's fate is exactly what mercy in war gets you and why it's so naïve
the Blackfish is steadfast and reliable.....he represents the best of House Tully still
@@tonysled6796 yeah, but Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure? The Blackfish seems to be the exception, not the rule. Judging by the few Tully’s in the books and show, their words don’t mean a damn thing.
@@BlueberryBumblebees he was influenced by a variety of other houses, battles and experiences. seems like power has gone to the heads of those other Tullys. I think GRRM is showing us that the political marriages as a tool to get power become a habit that when overused make families weak morally and passive
It's the line Littlefinger said FROM THE SHOW ONLY!!! Starks quick temper slow minds. That's what sticks in people's minds.
Dumb and dumber strike again 😂
I think that line says more about how Littlefinger feels about the Starks, and Brendan Stark in particular. Unfortunately, the fandom tends to take biased opinions from biased characters as objective fact more often than not.
The Tully words “Sorry for fucking up your plans”
😂
Awesome!
Ned does thoughtfully speak. He tells Robert on his death bed he would support his heir. Not Joeff
NED was one of the VERY FEW men Tywon didnt trust as far as taking sides. He thought NED was smarter then anyone thought. TY KNEW NEDs potential.
he also knew he was no match for Stannis and Ned in one camp so he separated them all....
he was a moron. he brought 2 hostages to kings landing and the only thing that stopped him form brining bran was Jamie throwing Bran from a tower. And he brought like 50 guards... to the place where both his father and brother were killed because showed up and brought too few guards, then he sends half of them off to fall into Tywin Lannister's trap or the city watch. he was epically stupid.
@@user-wg7nw3mh2e In a normal situation, Robert would actually bring HIS men into position of powers. He wouldn't let the Queen Consort have nearly as much influence as she does. It is not Ned's fault Robert transformed King's Landing in a cesspit of Lannisters.
@@user-wg7nw3mh2e 1 not 2 hostages
If it wasn't for Sansa Ned would have got out of the city the very next morning
He choose to go by a ship so he can't be easily intercepted and within a week he would be in White Harbour and even if Robert had died in the meantime it wouldn't have mattered anymore
With Moat Calin fortified the Iron Born would never have taken the North and had Catelyn went straight to Winterfell as she was instructed to do than North would have more time to gather their whole army which might have been near 30000 and not roughly 18000 that Robb Stark led
Also I don't think the Westerners would fare much good against Northerners since upto half of the Lannister/Westerland armies are made up of sells swords and freeriders who don't always fight to the bitter end against a determined foe not fighting for gold as the rule goes if you sell your sword for gold you want to keep doing it again and again and avoid dieing for the Lord who payed you
@@hammer3721true! Ned is actually shocked that Robert had just allowed himself to get this indebted to them
Ned didn’t trust Littlefinger, he was USING Littlefinger. Like how Cersei and everyone else uses Littlefinger.
Littlefinger was definitely the one in control
No, he had to have some level of trust in little finger, period. His entire plan depended on little finger having come through with the city watch, and that right there is exactly how Ned and his grand confrontation with Cersei failed. How can you think he didn’t trust little finger when Peter ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish was the lynchpin in his plan to confront Cersei? He was advised by Catelyn to trust littlefinger, and on top of his naïveté, he made a serious and continuous error in judgement. Ned’s cluelessness led him down the path that Jon Arryn followed straight to his death. And he was more experienced in statecraft than Ned, but Ned absolutely had trust in Baelish to make his plans of confrontation with Cersei hinge on Littlefinger coming through.
Not true he had trust with him in the end
@@vanessamccool7972 so do you think Cersei trusted Littlefinger? Did Renly? Did Varys? Everyone knows what Littlefinger is. And so did Ned, Ned CHOKED Littlefinger. He knew what he was. Littlefinger is just tricky. He helps you, he harms you, he helps you, he harms you. You just never know what he’s going to do. So no on trusts him. But they use him for whatever services he is offering.
@@girlnettles I don’t think, I’m just commenting on what is factual. We know and can agree that Ned put faith in the weasel, and had to have some level of trust, because he damn sure didn’t incentivize him to do something for him in return for a favor/gold/whatever-he expected that Littlefinger would help just because? What was the reason if he didn’t have some kind of faith, trust, dependence-what would you call it? Since he didn’t trust Littlefinger EVEN THOUGH AS SOON AS LITTLEFINGER TURNED ON NED HE SAID WHAT? Something like, ‘I did warn you not to......WHAT WAS IT AGAIN? OH YEAH-‘...TRUST ME’. But you’re right, I’m wrong. Whatever.
Ned Stark isn't dumb...just his wife, friends, bannermen, half of his children, and everyone else he associates with.
Yup, your fate is closely tied to those you associate with
Which means he should've chosen better friends?
@@Josh-the-man can't choose your family I guess
he also shows no intent to prey on other houses...politically he is at the height of Stark worth if we consider King Robert being his most powerful ally. but times have changed and Ned's priorities have moved on to his children whereas some houses are making moves. If we consider how important the North is to the security of the realm Ned is operating on a higher order of responsibility. his punishment of Jorah for slavery and punishment of the deserter shows a level of leadership some other houses have delegated to other lesser lords. He is like Stannis in that the day to day operations govern his movements. Tyrion is similar. These are men who can be killed but literally have to be betrayed to be killed. They wont be beaten easily in open war but their trust in others will always be the point of vulnerability that can outdo them....Jon as well.
He needed to have better friends. And family.
Catelyn let the imp go
Then slit my throat - Ned stark
2nd comment: The only "stupid" thing I ever felt Ned did was miss a vital hint about the dagger. At the Hand's tourney, The Hound and Jaime faced off during the jousting and The Hound wins their match. Renly and Littlefinger bet on it, with Renly backing The Hound and LF backing Jaime. After the match Sansa says she knew The Hound would win and LF says "if you know who's going to win the second match, speak up now before Lord Renly plucks me clean". Renly responds "A pity the Imp is not here with us, I should have won twice as much". Meaning Tyrion would've bet on Jaime and always does. That's why Renly could confidently say he would've doubled his purse that day were Tyrion there. Therefore Tyrion betting against Jaime and losing the dagger was a lie. This totally flew over Ned's head; in fact he's noted to have smiled about it.
Maybe this is Monday morning quarterbacking, but if Ned were more perceptive he would've caught that. Other than that, I agree that his fate was largely the product of forces beyond his control.
Tyrion makes mention of Joffrey’s knowledge of Valyrian steel daggers from his stash. So, was Littlefinger feeding information to Joffrey about it?
That's a very astute observation.
i miss your videos Ashley!!
Yesss!! Exactly! It's literally said out loud that Tyrion backed Jaime.
I don't think that's quite fair, we know from wider context that this is a pattern of Tyrion always betting on his brother, but from Ned's perspective he's got one bet in favour of Jaime, one potential bet in favour of Jaime, and one bet against him, all from the same source.
That's not enough to draw a pattern on without knowledge of Tyrion's character and family relations that Ned doesn't have, and all the info comes from Little finger, so declaring one data point unreliable means they're all unreliable, and we're back to square one.
One detail. When you are talking about Rob and say that Edmoure should have listened to him it's actually Rob's mistake. Edmure was only told to hold Riverrun and stopping the army a few miles south moving against your king it's easily an extension of that. Rob could have told Edmure to let Tywin come after him or to atck his suply lines but he didn't. What was Edmure supposed to do? To asume that Rob wanted to be trapped in enemy land fighting a bigger army? To deduce that the most important lord of the kingdom was kept in the dark from his part to play in the war?
I think that an important part to remember about Rob is that at the end of the day he is not his father as he makes many mistakes that he would have not. He sends Theon back to the Iron Islands, he marries Jeyne and makes other terrible decisions as a leader
Yeah, I've heard people go to war over whether or not Edmure did wrong but I feel it is perfectly in line with GRRMs writing that a massive mistake in war was made over a miscommunication. Robb has wolf's blood and is in many ways a natural born leader, but he is still a kid and not experienced enough which is why he makes these obvious mistakes. I also think the wolf's blood was made more intense by his warging into Grey Wind, which might be why he made emotional decisions instead of tactical ones.
Getting counsel from his dimwitted mother and the snake Bolton also didn't help.
I'm in the camp that Edmure didn't know the plan, and accomplished a victory by doing what he was told. Hold Riverrun. He should have been told more, or at least not scolded for basically doing his job. Robb just didn't think he was as good as he actually was. What happened there was on Robb, not Edmure. Robb was not an idiot, but he did make mistakes. Maybe he shouldn't have killed the Karstark that murdered prisoners for something they didn't do. Punish, yes, but not behead the guy. He shouldn't have let Theon go. I forget if he did something to make the Boltons leave, or if that was just Tywin convincing them to betray him. I think agreeing to marry a Frey was more the mistake than marrying Jeyne, but that's up for debate.
I wouldn't call the Stark men idiots. They're just surrounded by corrupt and stupid people.
@@chadnorris8257 He had no choice in executing Karstarks, he should have kept Theon by his side though. He never made a specific mistake to make Boltons leave but Roose took the opportunity to betray him because he was losing the war. He should have listened to his advisors and kept himself from acting emotionally. Edmure, Roose and Brynden played important parts in the war and should have been lended an ear at all times.
edmure was told to hold his position, not go out and fight a battle he was told to do. he should just follow orders. robb isn't responsible for not giving him a reason beyond the commands
I'm sorry but you're wrong. Do you think Tywin explained his reasoning behind every big decision he made to all of his generals? Especially in situations like this where some kind of feint is involved in the tactic (remember he had a plan with Stannis included)? And with such a straightforward command? Edmure was supposed to hold Riverun, that's what he was supposed to do
I largely agree with you (especially with your main point that Ned isn’t dumb), but it *was* a mistake to send so much of his strength to chase the Mountain. There had to be missteps like that from Ned to make the POV character tragic and believable.
Catelyn’s urging Ned to trust Littlefinger, and her arrest of Tyrion are the two main in-world (and non-magic) causes for Ned’s downfall.
As hand of the King an was he (acting regent then??) he couldn’t exactly be seen to get Lords to send their men to deal with the mountain without sending enough of his own men
Milk of the poppy can easily affect your judgment, and Ned was riding that dragon when he sent his lads after the mountain.
@@ComradeCommissarYuri of course you can, tell me that Tywin would be afraid of sending other lords men without his own, Roose does it to Robb and sends Robbs men to die in battles without risking hiss own
I agree, Ned was not stupid. He had a sound strategy that didn't survive contact with Murphy, his wife, & his daughter. His "only" mistake was to assume that a piece of paper was of any value without the swords to enforce it.
Ned was THE reason we watched the show. HONOR is the theme of this story-sacrificing for family love, recognition of and gain of honor, and finally, understanding that honor is a good characteristic, not a laughing matter, as it was in the South. My whole interest was seeing the Starks back at WFell and on top.
YES!🐺
Robb is basically Napoleon Bonaparte. The dude was winning a war against Tywin Lannister, bypassed the Golden Tooth, smashed 3 Lannister armies (Camp Battle, Oxcross and Whispering Woods) and was cooking up his Austerlitz before Edmure bumbled his way into fucking up. Robb was about to 100% take Moat Calin from the South, something never done before and retake the North. Just like Napoleon, he couldn't be everywhere at once and suffered because of it.
Also Robb is crazy good at politics. Dude inspired "Furher bunker" level of loyalty in his men to the point of being forced into kingship by even the River Lords. Catelyn even recognises how deft he is in conversations.
Tl:Dr- Robb is far from stupid and he's the fathers son.
I agree that it's mostly the lack of the ability for people to realize that as the audience/reader we know things characters don't and have a much different perspective of the story than the participants of it.
Agreed soo much! Ned is not dumb. He is a good person. He does not want the blood if children on his hands.
Still dumb. Judge the character of those you afford weaknesses like mercy.
You hover a foot over the head of a snake but stop short of crushing it, it’ll still bite.
Renly had the right idea.
So did Tywin with the Targaryens.
@@Plzcheese Being a good person doesn't make you dumb, Ned was really smart but everything work against him.
@@Plzcheese how did it work out for them? Tywin killed by his son, Renly by his brother. Being ruthless does not make you smart. Ned was simply unlucky!
Still a bit dumb
@@bmirkhanzadeh everybody calling Ned dumb because he wasn't slimy. that just shows a lot of people have a little slime in them.
I never understood why Robert didn’t have witnesses in the room when he named Ned Regent. (I guess so the story could happen)
Meh still wouldn’t have meant shit cersai would have still acted the same
Actually it depends someone like selmy would uphold that regency but the people who would do that are far and few
to be fair, that has never stopped anyone in that world before. have you ever read fire and blood? do you at least know how the targaryen civil war happened?
@@winstonlewis5630 Selmy didn't need a witness, he believed it was the word of King Robert. In that throne room, Ned was the lawful man in charge, and Barristan knew it. Everyone knew and acknowledged and believed that Ned had been named regent, which is the man with the legal power of the king. Cersei just didn't care, neither did her thugs or the five major losers of the Kingsguard, and Varys, Littlefinger and Pycelle all had agendas that were better served if Ned was removed, so they let it happen, law be damned. Barristan is basically gutless when it comes to right and wrong and the law, until the tyranny affects him personally and he is forced out of his position in disgrace.
Cats actions got jory Cassel killed and he helped Arya and later his father with boats and theon. Sansa tells everyone and literally goes against the saying "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives" line compared to Arya. Edmure Tully nearly caused a huge disaster by attacking the mountain. Lysa poisoning Jon arryn Basically tully stupidity.
Little finger and varys already knowing Everything before Ned gets there and Ned STILL had a chance at winning shows Ned was a genius at battle plans. Also most forget but Ned had little finger with a knife. Everyone else thinks little finger is nice in the books which is another plus to Ned not negative.
I just feel people think the show showed Ned exactly when it was watered down with all the changes and later male sjw lines they think women would say like Sansa in season 8.
Also again Rob was his father's son and STILL was winning the war against tywin and only lost because he wasn't married. If Ned was leading then nobody would lose any battle he had by then.
Robb should have been clear with his plans of war to all his top officer if he had told endure his plan I don't think endure would have but he did have a direct order to stay in place So it's 80% endure fault and 20% Robb fault. I wonder did he tell the blackish or did the blackish just know subconsciously because that what he would have done
@@forheavensakes9144 war changes periodically and edmure was given a direct order to hold his area which he disobeyed and any army would tell you that basically a resignation for not following command.
No it's not 20 percent for Rob. Edmure not only fought for the mill but also I mean ALSO gave away the twins by sending all of Rob's men out to the field which then lead to the Frey being free to switch sides as the veiled threat was removed and the position lost which leads to the red wedding as the Frey had time to prepare. If Edmure left these men and Rob got married to another girl the Frey would not do anything as Rob would have more men in the castle by the time they return.
Basically edmure messed up so bad twice in both stannis losing and Rob losing for his actions. He had more than enough men to take the mill without the extra men Rob left at the times to keep the Frey in line.
It's more so 85 percent emures fault and cat 10 Percent with how she gave up Jaime too. Rob gave his orders and you don't go against orders
Reverse of this is how roose(again cat) used that fact to get 2/3rd of Rob's army slaughtered because they follow orders.
@@ivanbluecool he was given the order to stay put
@@forheavensakes9144 I said that already. Just telling you how stupid he is and how many people he messed up with every action he took.
Because he left. Stannis and Rob were in less favorable conditions and this lead to do many problems down the line. Not sure why you don't know I know this.
Also by leaving cat took Jaime and released him because she is so stupid she thinks Jaime would honor his deal just because he said he would.
Basically the Tully ruin Everything
Theon being able to betray them was rob's fault tho. Catlyn was actually being smart for once and told rob not to trust him.
I don't think I would call Ned dumb, but perhaps honorable to a fault, and I think that's where his more foolish actions and views came from. If R+L=J is true, he promised his sister on her deathbed to keep Johns real identity a secret. He is not a man to break a promise because of his honor. His honor made his confront Cersei to give her a chance to get her kids and flee, even if the smarter thing would have been to ride after Robert on his hunting trip and tell him everything instantly. His honor and loyalty to Robert is honestly, to me anyways, his greatest faults. In a fight, the one who fights with honor is rarely going to beat the one willing to fight dirty. (This is actually mirrored by the trial by combat for Tryrion in the Eyrie, where Bron who fought dirty beat the honorable knight. It was even commented on how Bron did not fight with honor, but the knight did. And the knight lost.)
I actually think its his Honor that caused some of Sansa's faults as well. She knew her "Duty" as a highborn Lady and she did that well. I see people angry at her for the situation with Micah and Lady, but Ned himself explained it to Arya that she was betrothed to Joffrey and has to take his side, even when he is wrong. Yes Sansa is a naive little girl who was living in a fairy tale, but she was also literally pulled in front of the king and queen to call their son, her fiance, a liar. She never even said Joffrey was right, she just said she did not remember what she saw, she tried to stay neutral. Was it wrong for her to blame Arya, yes absolutely, but at that time who could she safely blame? As far as she knew Joffrey was still gonna be her husband, and she still foolishly thought him to be a beautiful true prince. Also it was Nymeria who bit Joff, but Lady died because of it. I think her blame for it was understandable, even if it was wrong.
I think the truly foolish one is Cat. In the story she PUSHED Ned so hard to go to Kings Landing, (An interesting change in the show) she became so obsessed looking after her comatose son, she literally ignored her youngest child, and her eldest, who needed her help running the North. She deliberately acted against her husband when she kidnapped Tyrion, and SHE is the one who trusted Littlefinger and urged Ned to do the same, because they where childhood friends. She couldn't see LF's obsession with her, and dislike for the Starks.
I love A song of ice and fire because all of the POV characters (And even some of the non-pov) are deep and rounded. I don't think any one character is wholy good or bad (Except maybe Joffrey) and when people fall, you can see how they got there.
I loved your video. :) I really enjoy your content.
The explanation about why Sansa had to betray her family because of being betrothed to Joff only happened in the show. In the book, Sansa told her dad the truth of what took place, that's the only reason Ned called for Sansa to tell the king what really happened. Ned was not expecting for Sansa to betray her family & lie for strangers.
And just an FYI:there is a inner monologue moment where cat laments kidnapping Therion and causing all the chaos and she knows it was her fault and regrets it. And it was her sisters fault that went bad for the starks when cat thought she had a ally in her sister. Had she known lysa was crazy she never would have went that rout
If you would've said catelyn is the worst they would've hearted you lol
@@harsh_1910 lol I was actually talking to them on part one of why cat sucks, I disagree with them. Had to bring it to another video cuz I can’t let it go
@@zacrusk5274 i know and i was saying that cuz if they see cat sucks they'd be blinded by it and heart it. I love cat too (she's probably in top characters in asoiaf for me) and it's just so annoying they keep bringing her up just to hate her, i know it's their opinion and blah blah blah but they need to calm down
@@harsh_1910 cat does suck 😅
@@kevinlacharite5032 not really, depends on your definition
Considering the entire point of Robbs story was him winning the battles but he lost the war, Ned was exactly right to pick his battlefield wisely. Being good at politics doesn’t make you any smarter than a battle commander, you’re just intelligent in different ways. A wise man knows his strengths and weaknesses.
Your channel is the only channel that does not treat the opinions of POV characters as truth. Thank you for that
The story is a great example of how Truth, and memory, are personal constructs and can never be completely ojective and accurate (e.g., the problems with eye wintess testimony)
Unreliable narrators.
@@6alcantara To take the point to his logical end, all narrators are unreliable
@@drgordo112 except Morgan freeman
Great video! I think the fact that Ned did try to bribe the City Watch shows he's not dumb, & perfectly willing to put practicality over his high morals when the situation demands it.
To be fair to Renly, he acted in his own best interests after realising Ned wasn't ready to act immediately in taking Joffrey in control. Was it selfish? Yes. Does that mean Renly sucks? Not really.
Yea I think any sane person in renlys position would do the same.
Actually not. The problem is that Renly acted only in his own selfish interest (after having his mind filled with ambition by Loras Tyrell). He is ready to ally with Ned against the Lannisters but only if he becomes king, not for Stannis.
@@str.77 In the books he only wanted to become king after Ned turned him down and Robert died. He had suggested that Ned take the regency and bring the realm under his control with Renly's help. In the show is where Renly's kingly ambitions started even before Robert was dead.
@@kiritugeorge4684 OkayI haven't got that far in the books. But "after Robert died" is irrelevant as all we talk about is "after Robert died". The point is that a Ned/Renly alliance against the Lannisters was prevented by two factors:
-Ned being to honourable to either betray Stannis or Renly in view of the more Lannister problem
-Renly being to selfish to fight for his brother
@@str.77 Renly was pursuing the most realistic choice as Robert was dying. He proposed that Ned take the regency, get Cersei's kids under his control and take charge of the city the city with their combined forces. So how is it that you accuse Renly of preventing an alliance with Ned when it was Ned who turned him down on the basis that he did not want to act while Robert still breathed? When Renly saw his chances of making an alliance with Ned were not forthcoming he did what any sane man would do, he bolted. Otherwise he would have been held hostage by Cersei to ensure the fealty of the Stormlanders (and probably the Lords of the Reach coz I doubt Loras would allow House Tyrell to rally against King's Landing if Renly was Cersei's hostage) much in the same way the Redwyne twins were held hostage to ensure the fealty of the Arbor.
Ned actually doesn't cite honour as his reason for not allying with Renly. He thinks that Renly and his forces wouldn't be enough to take control of the city peacefully and with minimal casualties hence his failed gold cloaks plan.
Agreed, Ned isn't dumb and he was trying to strategize and respond under difficult circumstances. I think one of Ned's downfalls was his naivete. He hadn't permitted himself to consider what type of person Cersei is. He didn't ask himself what type of woman would bear children with her twin brother and to what end would she go to protect that "secret" . He didn't think what would Tywin Lannister's daughter do if I confront her? I think Ned may have been clueless to when it comes to seeing and understanding women...
The other thing is Ned could have benefitted from taking some time to learn adapt to the politics around him without betraying his integrity and character.
At least in the show, Ned's actions could be seen completely different depending on who interprets them. For example, many of Ned's actions is just what he does as plainly as Northern culture is known for. If he wants to speak to Robert about the kingdom's troubles then he'll go to him like any friend would consult to another friend. But during the first meeting with the Small Council, this could be seen as a act of favoritism. Or the scene when he orders Beric to assemble a 100 men to detain the Mountain for raiding the Riverlands, to those who know Ned this is a valiant act of justice to deliver punishment to a known robber knight; but to the court it could be interpreted as Ned is abusing his status as Hand to settle his family rivalry with the Lannisters using the King's men. This becomes more clear that the court sides with the Lannisters when Joffery usurps the throne when Ned tries to arrest them but the court does nothing for Ned and arrest him instead for supposed treason. It's because in the eyes of the nobles from King's Landing, Ned doesn't do anything to address what public opinion thinks of him since they don't know or understand him but see him as a man who abused his status as Robert's friend in order to do as he pleased instead of the honorable man he is suppose to be.
It's further proof that he was a honorable man but a terrible politician because your honorable actions could be twisted depending on court intrigue and if you don't quell the conspiracy or rumors by using political maneuvering then it blows up in your face before you know it.
@@ythandlename Thanks for your input, your points here are well said.
His biggest mistake was believing in Robert and underestimating the things the Lannisters would do to keep power.
which was foolish. he saw exactly what Tywin was capable of at the end of the rebellion
Just thinking about this while watching, and this makes perfect sense because Rob being so young and without experience beats all of his battles and that goes to show how Ned would’ve done being that Rob is his oldest son and learned a lot from him. Of course Rob had many seasoned north men giving him council but still
Once Catelyn and Sansa pulled their dumb shit, Ned was behind the 8 ball. They put him in a hole that was damn near impossible to get out of. Not sure if this happened in t he book. But Ned saying Catelyn took Tyrion on his order was stupid.
Ned did it in the book as well to protect his dumb wife.
The confrontation in the Godswood is what prompted Cersei to order that Robert is given extra strong wine.
Robert was already gone
I will say ned should've known not to tell Cersei that he knew her children were Jaime's and not Roberts. I get he didn't know Robert would die but he knew Cersei was cruel. He should've waited to tell Cersei, it would've been best if he waited til Robert t come back from hunting.
Ned abhors killing children, like any good man would, and was giving them a chance for them to escape.
People think he’s stupid because they have the advantage of watching the show from an outside perspective. If you suddenly were selected as say the president/prime minister out of nowhere (assuming you’re not already in politics) then you would absolutely have an ideal vision for your country and would underestimate how hard it is to enact your vision.
Thank you Dave for breaking this down for people. Ned was never dumb.
I mostly agree, especially about how Catelyn had a huge part to play in Ned's fall. I think the one massive mistake Ned made was that he did underestimate Cersei, twice. It never occurred to him that Cersei would and could kill Robert or that she would manipulate things to ruin him after he became regent. He was a man of his time and place, and it did bite him in the butt. In all fairness, Robert made the same mistake.
Ned would have been prepared for war, as was stated many times.
But Lady Stark wants to play the Game of Thrones and people die when they play
Good point about Cersei already having the plan in motion to kill Robert before Ned spoke to her. I also agree that Ned would have won or at least been in a better position if Sansa hadn't gone to her. If Ned saw her and Arya sail away on the ship he hired, he never would have confessed to a crime he didn't commit. So even if everything went the same, Ned could have been traded for Jaime because he still would have been alive rather than being executed at Baelor's in an attempt to save Sansa.
You're being really unfair to Edmure, he wasn't aware of Robb's plan which is one of Robb biggest mistake. All he knew was "defend Riverrun" and that could include his land as well. And as lord paramount of the Riverland he can't just let Tywin pass, he a decent guy who care for his people.
And to his credit he is the only one who beat Tywin in the field. I feel like we see him as an idiot because Cat sees him that way in her POV.
Yep a lot of characters give off the edmure is stupid and it’s honestly weird. Like he’s supposed to read your mind. The show is a lot more direct with it he disobeyed a direct order and it cost them. But In the books they get mad at him for doing what they told him to do defend riverrun
@@winstonlewis5630 And the guy is the only one in the entire story to let his peasants inside his walls and go lead the battle himself. That deserve some respect.
I think he is just seen as an incompetent idiot. Not to be trusted with anything more complicated than 'stay'. We didn't actually see the orders being given but I would suspect they were quite clear given the anger over his disobedience.
@@winstonlewis5630 He's not defending Riverrun. The Red Fork flows from southwest to northeast, toward Riverrun. The bodies from Edmure's battle drifted downstream past Riverrun. That means Tywin had already got PAST Riverrun to the south, and that was where Edmure was fighting him. Edmure was not stopping Tywin from attacking Riverrun, he was stopping Tywin from retreating out of Edmure's kingdom. Imagine if in World War 2, the Allies had landed an army in Northern Germanyand were attacking the German industry, so the Rommel and the armies in France had to abandon the country and return home to defend their power base, but DeGaulle fortifies and defends the bridges over the Rhine to prevent the Germans from leaving France. You'd better believe Eisenhower and Churchill would be livid, especially if it meant that Rommel was somehow then available to transport his army to Russia and capture Moscow, knocking the Russians out of the war.
@@Gunleaver you’re wrong the red fork is northeast of river run. Your entire argument just fell apart at me Just look looking at a map of Westeros
Robb's mistake was not telling Edmure why he should let Tywin cross the river. A commander with an independent command needs to know your strategy. Also Tywin not crossing the river is not as important as people claim
I agree. I don’t think Rob is dumb for not telling him though . I think he just assumed that his uncle wouldn’t violate his orders.
@@SirDehumanized He should no that that is not how war works. Edmure cannot command his army properly without knowing the plan
Edmure didn't disregard Robb's orders, Robb told him to hold RR, he held RR.
I had to quickly thumbs just because of the title alone! I have spent years in the fandom defending poor dead Ned
Same here
Me too!!
The most annoying part for me is even in Clash, Sansa blames Arya for Lady’s death. Nails on the chalkboard!
I mean to be fair here , I would blame her too.
That’s what people do , people don’t act rationally when it comes to grief.
It’s easy for us to look at it from the outside and say “Sansa is a dumb brat” but we don’t look at it from her perspective.
What would you do if your dog had to be put down because your sister and her dog were wild, you would most likely blame your sister.
And it’s not like Arya is perfect ether,she is a brat to in her own right.
@@rayleighsilver8264 Lady wasn't put down bc of Arya and Nymeria. She was put down because Joffrey attacked am innocent boy and tried to murder Arya. Nymeria protected her and Joffrey was embarrassed that he'd lost the fight he started. So he and his mother demanded blood. Sansa initially blamed Cersei and Joff, as was reasonable, but decided that she didn't want to be angry with them because she thought they were pretty. So she shifted the blame to Arya, who she doesn't care about. Sansa isn't stupid. She's selfish and reframes reality to get what she wants. The way she initially put the blame in the right place proves that.
@@winterwolf7423 hmm true but can you blame her ?
She is just a kid, being selfish is what kids do, and it’s not exclusive to her ether,Arya is selfish, Joff is selfish etc it’s in their nature.
and she is a kid that went through grief, she didn’t know how to direct her anger.
@@rayleighsilver8264 yes, I can blame her for the reasons I already listed. Sansa knew that the right people to blame were Cersei and Joffrey, but decided to stop blaming them so she could get what she wanted through them. It didn't matter that Joff tried to murder her sister or that he attacked another child, directly leading to his murder. It didn't even matter that Cersei and Joff killed her pet. All that matters to Sansa is Sansa and those she deems worthy of her regard.
How you can call Arya selfish when she goes out of her way to help people other than her self, I can't understand. I'm sure any explanation for that view will go against canon.
@@winterwolf7423 it's wild to me how people will change younger Sansa's narrative to "oh, she knew she couldn't displease the prince and queen! She knew the political consequences of going against joffrey!" when her words were right there. She truly believed that "beauty equals goodness".
Like, she's either a political mastermind at age eleven or she was a sheltered girl who trusted pretty people over her family. They can't have it both ways.
Ned definitely wasn’t as dumb as some fans think but a huge part of why he accepted the job of hand was to protect Robert from the Lannisters so any plans that depended on Robert not dying definitely shows a blind spot.
Not really. As long as joffrey is a minor it's in the lannisters best interest to keep Robert alive. Nobody want the instability of a regency. Especially not while there are still targaryens around.
What Cersei did was pretty darn stupid.
@@thehighground3630 yes, it was NOT the Lannister master plan to kill Robert. Only Cersei wanted him dead, Tywin only moved against Riverrun after Tyrion was taken and the various stark-Lannister disputes throughout the first book.
Ned is idiot because he have absolutely no back up plan, he just assumes people will respect his authority despite having less money, politic pull, men and despise being in enemy territory… He had so many options but he chooses to do nothing and trusts all the wrong people.
I didn't read the book!!!
"Ned was in no position whatsoever to deal with the situation". While there's truth in that, I think he was in the exact position Catelyn wanted him to be in. Per her own admission, she knew precisely how dangerous King's Landing was because of the Lannisters; appealing to that factor out of alleged concern for Robert was how she manipulated Ned to go there in the first place. And once he was there, she did everything she could to escalate that danger. Which I believe was deliberate because she never got over him "dishonoring" her, so his life was of little consequence now that Robb was nearly a man grown and could rule Winterfell in his own right. As were her daughter's lives, given that she'd already parted from them in her heart. Her words, not mine.
I know where you all stand on the Stark sibling's birth statuses, and while I disagree about MOST of them, I do agree that Robb was a bastard. I've long suspected that Robb is Brandon's son, and that there was something in the letter Cat received that made her think that information was coming to light. Hence her burning it before Ned could read it, and her desperation to secure Robb's birthright at all costs from that moment on. Not to mention her personal honor, and that of her House, was on the line. As I already stated Ned's life was forfeit to her so his welfare wasn't a consideration in her plans.
I never thought of that. I wish we knew what was in that letter she burned so bad lol Robb being Brandon’s son is such a crazy cool idea
@@KingOfWinter It could also explain Hoster Tully's insistence on marrying Catelyn immediately after Brandon's death. Having an unwed daughter pregnant by a man executed for treason...he couldn't let that stand. Which, if you believe in N+A=J, would make the situation all the more tragic.
Now, in terms of supporting evidence for C+B=Robb...In ASOS Robb laments to Catelyn his failure to conceive a child despite his numerous attempts to do so. Cat says "It does not always happen the first time", then thinks to herself "though it did with you". How could she know that unless she only slept with Robb's father once? Does it make sense that Cat only slept with Ned once in the 2 weeks he remained at Riverrun after the wedding, knowing full well he needed an heir because was going to war and could die? Or does it make sense that she slept with her betrothed Brandon before their wedding and it was only that one time because he then got jailed and executed? Brandon, who we know engaged in sex out of wedlock and prided himself on taking the maidenheads of high born ladies?
@@ashleyofnaath oohhh shieeeet
@@ashleyofnaath I used to be a fan of this theory. It makes a lot of sense but the timeline does not work. I think if this theory is right Cat should have been 4 or 5 months pregnant by the time of her marriage to Ned and that would have made an issue for sure!
@@bmirkhanzadeh Do we know for certain that much time passed between Brandon's death and Ned/Cat's wedding? I've never seen where in the text it definitively states how much time passed.
Sweet a video. Just had my birthday a few days ago.
Before seeing video Ned is probably the smartest person in the short time we see him. He perfectly guessed a women poisoned Jon arryn. Made battle plans that would have made the north stand a better chance at war if it were to happen. Knows a lie can be honorable as he used it on Jaime to not make it look like he had no control over cat and taught his kids that lesson too. Raised jon and cats kids as actual siblings despite how horrible cat is and confirmed she makes Jon cry(horrible person she is) and even saw the gold problem in kings landing immediately despite how bad the counselors are as they were never on Roberts side seeing little finger and varys.
Even in death he is still ahead of a lot of people and his deeds are still useful like with the mountain clans and loyalty of the north as well.
Yeah Ned is not dumb but the community looks down on honor and prochecy but somehow don't when it's about rhegar and lyanna because they are as stupid as Romeo and Juliet are
happy birthday!!!
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand thank you
lying about Cat completely exposed him, I feel. And it lead to getting injured by Jaime
@@johnnyskinwalker4095 not lying would show something much worse in having no control over cat so tywin and anyone would take advantage of it.
It's basically like rob who is trying to win over the respect of his army despite being so young. It's appearances
I still don’t get why Hand of the King needed to send 20 of his personal guard to deal with the Mountain. Worst case scenario, houses in the Crownlands owe fealty to the Iron Throne. Send a raven or rider to Stokeworth and Rosby if you need men fast and you somehow can’t manage to in a city of 500,000.
I always felt like naming house Tully after the author's ex-lover intentionally implied something about the character.
The shade 🤣🤣🤣
Which ex-lover?
@@sashacampbell3513 👀 yeah, which lover?
Ohohohohoho that is spicy
GRRM is definitely still in love with Lisa Tuttle
I don't know if Balon cared about Theon or not, but I believe that Balon started planning to attack the North only after he heard Theon was on his way to the Iron Islands. Balon was dismissive and only gave Theon a small part to play, but Balon also gave Theon what he should have been the safest and simplest of tasks to his least experienced commander and heir. Compared to what Tywin did to Tyrion on the Battle of the Green Fork it seems like Balon has Theon's safety in mind. Theon could have been sent on a suicidal mission like holding the left flank if Balon didn't care about him.
It actually makes sense in history of the Greyjoy’s. My memory is kinda off but I’m pretty sure During the Greyjoy rebellion balon had a son that attacked a castle in the north and died doing so. That could have played a big part in why he told theon to take it easy he’s starting another rebellion and the last one he did killed all his sons. At first glance (and how the show makes it seem) it seems he thinks his son is incompetent but it could just as easily be he doesn’t want his son to be killed
Ned isn't dumb and also another misconception is that Ned is an 100% good guy. The Starks, specially in the books, are representatives of a dark magical force from the old gods that requires human sacrifices etc and he is of course the Lord in a very oppressive and unjust political system. Hell, the first chapter of the book is about Ned beheading a guy who was telling the truth XD Reading his chapters you can see that he was really planning all his moves and consequences as well as an isolated Northerner could. Also I think the chapter where he warns Cersei indicative that he could have won the game if he wanted, if not for his mercy. Just as he could have tried to take the throne back when he arrived at King's Landing after the Mad King died. To me above all Ned had 2 things going for his character: His absolute love for his children and his duty to uphold his Stark values, those 2 things got him killed, not his intelligence
He knew his own strengths which is more important than being intelligent (or not). I'd say Ned was not politically talented at all but that he was aware of that. That's why he tried to escalate the conflict out of KL. Catlyn ruined that however, by speeding up events through her actions of insanity.
Ned was politically talented in the sense that he was a diplomatic man, who made friends easily and was well respected. He was also almost loved by his own bannermen and subjects. He just wasn't quite the master schemer that other characters were, and in a place where he had very little power (far from his land, and men in a different culture and religion that his people had little interactions with). Cercei is probably more boneheaded than Ned ever was, but has power through her family that kept her safe in Kings Landing.
Simply put Ned was a good ruler and clever man, he was just put into an almost impossible situation which he almost got himself out of - only for his wife to fuck it up.
Ned was politically talented. Him buying off the gold cloaks shows that. The Lannister's were just one step ahead in terms of their plan of killing Robert
@@rebornstillborn The problem with Ned was that he assumed everyone held the same honor code as himself. Never did Ned try to see how the players in this new environment tick.
I agree a 1000% I said the same thing.. " He just had a string of bad luck".🤔
20:56 the key there was Renly also wanted to steal awayJoffrey like Cersei did Sansa. Yes, the books said to take custody of Joffrey and Ned didn’t want to scare the kids.
Ned does the trope where you immediately tell your enemy everything the instant you realize who they are. Like, in a show where they are detectives, your learn the murderer is a double agent, your very partner!!! According to the trope, even tho you guys are alone at a crime scene, you immediately confront them, telling them you know everything, and asking them to cuff themselves and surrender, and you probably don’t even draw your gun lol. And of course they just shoot you. That’s the stupid trope, it’s like the reverse of when a villain tells the hero their whole plan cause they think they have won, it’s the hero doing it this time, they are like a dumb robot that can’t defy rules or honor or think, no way they could go get backup or run away or ambush, they have to try and arrest them on the spot because they can’t fathom lying or that their partner could turn on them. That’s the stupid but well meaning tragic hero trope.
Ned fell into that trope fully. Confronting cersie and telling her his plan then threatening her but then expecting her to just surrender herself, it was basically committing suicide. At the very least it’s a declaration of war, that he does with no forethought or follow through.
I see what you mean about it being set up perfectly, he didn’t suspect cersie and wanted to protect the kids, but he really very underestimated what cersie is capable of.
I'm willing to bet a lot of people who think Robb Stark is dumb just watched the show. Because ok yeah, hitting it off with the battlefield nurse is fairly silly, but the book version....yup honorable move.
I’ve always said, Ned is very smart but also a very moral person and he’s just more moral than smart that doesn’t make him dumb it makes him a well written character
Ned’s not stupid…. I’d say he’s a parallel to Barristan Selmy in Mereen. Not a complete moron, but also starting wars while trying to be honorable.
Which I think is the point. There’s no such thing as an honorable war, war is brutal.
Also telling Tywin he’s on his shitlist was a pretty stupid thing to do. Even if Cat started it.
Agreed!!!
Yh it’s like there not dumb they just have strong morals
How was that stupid?
I agree with 99% of what you said; Ned was very intelligent and it was because of Catelyn and VERY treacherous characters in King's Landing that led to his downfall. He had no idea how filled with vipers the city was. But two things: 1) he was very open about his investigation into Jon Arryn's murder, even though he thought the culprits lived in the same castle, and trusted people like Grand Maester Pycelle. 2) I still think Ned telling Cersei that he discovered her kids' bastardy was a very stupid move. It was an incredible and unnecessary risk; he didn't have to know that Robert was about to die from a boar, but he could have the foresight to see that the Lannisters could arrange to have Robert killed some other way, like poisoning his wine. He came to King's Landing because he thought the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn after all. He also didn't connect the dots that there was a Lannister with Robert at that very second. Who knows what he would be capable of. They could have also just killed Ned. You NEVER tell your enemy your plans, no matter how foolproof you think they are. He backed Cersei into a corner, and desperate animals do dangerous and rash things. He's not STUPID per se, but his emotions and reluctance to see kids killed clouded his judgement and led to many more kids being killed (also, he refused to compromise on anything. He was a good ruler and his decisions were very logical, but made a lot of enemies)
He didn't want to kill her kids bro.. he's an honorable man so he gave her a chance to run Ned didn't know rob was going to die
Robb marrying Jayne was also the result of Stoneheart-in-waiting's power hunger. Robb did tell her to go and arrange a Frey marriage, but she wanted to stay close to seats of power she flat out refused. And "staying close to dying father" is also a load of her favourite emotional manipulation techniques, as when offered to play power games with Renly, she was easily persuaded to go. Of course, being Catelyn, she shone in her usual way, managed to tell Stannis, who was the most accomplished commander in the Realm, and Renly, who had a huge army behind him, that they behave like children, and should have had their heads banged together and sent to their rooms - a pinnacle of diplomacy, Tully style...
Honestly, this really opened my eyes. Thank you for such a great video.
For starters, it was Catelyn who did exactly what she warned Ned not to do, trusting Petyr (who she hadn’t seen in 20 years). Ned trusting Cat didn’t help. You have to give LittleFinger credit, he took out both of Catelyn’s Stark betroths. Petyr manipulated Brandon back in the day and Ned to start our story, directly leading them to their deaths.
Petyr was battling death due to the injuries Brandon caused him. There is no textual evidence which could prove that Petyr manipulated Brandon. Brandon was off to KL after brutalising LF. LF wasn't even a schemer back then, just a love struck puppy who can't fight. He developed into a schemer in the aftermath of his duel, after he recovered.
@@subarnosinha8042 Logistically their paths easily cross during this time, but there are some hints within the text. Who else had the motive? The motive to convince Brandon that Rhaegar specifically kidnapped Lyanna? Even hot headed Brandon was unlikely to go threatening the Mad King’s son without being specifically told this was what occurred. Rhaegar and Lyanna likely were unaware this was the story being told. The best lies contain nuggets of truth.
The two things that Ned could have done was to solidify allies and explain to if not everyone, then key players what is going on, why he is making these moves and what needs to happen. I'm mostly talking about after Robert was dying, sending letters to every lord saying that Stannis is the heir because Robert only had bastards. And before Robert dying, contacting Stannis to come to kings landing with a sizable retinue to reinforce Ned's personal guard (as dragon stone is far closer to Ned than any other ally) with a man who he could trust to do his duty. Those are the only things that Ned could have plausibly done with the information he had at hand. If Stannis was in Kings landing before or right after Robert's death, Ned wouldn't need the gold cloaks. I will say Ned wouldn't be subtle if he did what I'm suggesting
Have you ever thought about doing a video about Ygritte? I know that there is not a lot of information on her, but you usually manage to find some unique takes and delicious tinfoil on basically every character. The show kinda ignored her after she died, but in the books, she had quite the impact on Jon beyond the grave and even the early seasons had some really good scenes where she and Jon talk about the Free Folk.
People think dying means ultimate failure and the values and ethics of the individual in question are to blame. That's not digging into characters and details at all.
Another character that commonly gets that sort of treatment is Boromir from LOTR. Odd how Sean Bean played both but the character of Boromir is so much more complicated than "he betrayed Frodo and died failing to protect Merry and Pippen." I'm like... "No. Sure, he was tempted BUT he automatically knew once Frodo had ran that he had messed up. He yelled that he was sorry several times... then in an act of selfless courage he held off a huge lot of Uruk-Hai and gave his life trying to protect them. He apologized to Aragorn and confessed his attempt to take the ring to try to retain his honor." If anyone understood how watching his kingdom of Gondor win small victories and take huge losses to the East might change a mam... they'd understand how desperate Gondor had become and that even in the heart of their greatest hero, he might consider trying to use the ring to save them all.
I know that was off topic but I thoroughly enjoyed your podcast :) I too have had to defend Ned from those sorts of accusations. They say it's proof in some sense that honor, truth, and duty are dead in the world. I will tell them to come here and listen then!
15:10 Ohh I can just imagine Stannis and Ned teaming up to confront Tywin! We need someone to do a "what if" video!
I feel bad for Ned. His own family took selfish steps to put his life in danger. Sansa not telling the truth about Joffery attacking the butcher's boy. And Catelyn abducting Tyrion. These two moves made him look life a fool in Kingslanding. A family man of honor that he is, he took it upon himself.
joff tried to kill arya in that scene, not just him hurting the butchers boy, he swung his castle forged steel sword at her head.
@@metalsucks9 I mentioned Sansa and Catelyn who were at fault. Aray was right.
@@hitesh_blues2353 im not disagreeing, im just adding more credence to your argument, by mentioning something that you didn’t. i am completely in agreement with you. i just didn’t frame it very well looking back upon it.
If Ned acted after Robert naming him Lord Protector of the Realm... And Ned is killing / fighting With people as Robert lay dying... And word of it made its way to Robert.... I feel like Robert would know Ned good enough to know that Ned isn’t doing it maliciously or to just eliminate a potential rival...
I feel like Robert would know, if Ned is killing people while He lay on his deathbed, it’s for a damn good reason... And would probably be pissed be couldn’t be fighting with Ned...
Just a thought...
I agree... Ned is no dummy
Very true
Ned only had like 10 people in King's Landing, the best case scenario is for him is to send his guards as messengers to most of the Lords in Westeros armed with the evidence that Cersi's kids are bastards. If anything happens to Ned, everyone at least knows that Stannis is the mannis, and the Lannisters are everyone's enemy.
Ned failed to do the thing that would cover his butt which was also the thing that would have won Stannis, and thus his own family, the war.
It was the Tullys who actually led to the Starks’ deaths
Even before I've seen the video, I agree - I've never thought of him as dumb. As far as Littlefinger goes, Ned's own wife even was sure he could be trusted.
Edmure did nothing wrong, if one is ordered to hold an area and it looks as though the enemy is amassing troops there, likely preceding an attack, it makes complete sense to beat them to the punch. OTOH, if Robb specified that Edmure must not attack, that Tywin needs to leave because he sees greener grass, not because his nose was bloodied. Regarding Ned, did Cat & Sansa just become bat-shit traitors? They had to have known they couldn't be trusted. What Renly did was smart, he had a very small force and would have been at least permanently imprisoned there if he remained, he went to where he was surrounded by a ton of his men. In order to pull off the coup they would have only had to secure Joffrey and Cersei, that could have been accomplished with minimal bloodshed. If he's that concerned about Robert's feelz he shouldn't have just loaded him up on poppy milk and strong wine, and did what he had to do. He also would have been well served to text Stannis the moment he got to KL.
That’s not what happened. Tywin was trying to cross the river a ways down the river heading back to the golden tooth back into the westerlands
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand And yet a good commander without being told the strategy was specifically to lure Tywin back would surely think - hmmm this massive enemy force is about to trap my leader and his raiding force in their home territory while they outnumber my boss nearly 4 to 1. Boss man didn't have this in mind when he issued my orders to stay put. I best put a stop to it before he's overwhelmed and crushed. Robb bares the responsibility for that one. Your army commanders NEED to know your strategy, especially in a pre-telegraph/radio war. Otherwise they can't react as you need them to to changing circumstances.
@@jamescole1314 edmure should have known robb has a plan when he went west with his whole army. Edmure is older not younger, and should have known that robb isn't just raiding the westerlands for the lulz. His order was to hold the castles. If he wanted to save the smallfolks and retreat them back to riverrun or send some men to ward off attacks on nearby villages, that's fine. But amassing all the riverlords and their armies to fight tywin at the fords is far off from robb's order. Like in hindsight, does edmure think robb is dumb enough to raid the westerlands and not expect tywin to go back there and defend his homeland
@@terryderry_ Yes, Edmure was older and Robb younger. That is why, like everyone else who was older, assumed the Young Wolf was simply out to punish Tywin for all the raiding Tywin did in the Riverlands. Because that is how a young commander usually thinks. How the hell was he supposed to know Robb had a master plan that would make Aegon the Conqueror look like a 3-year old? It is no one's fault but Robb's. He was playing 4D-chess all by himself, whilst all his friends and enemies alike were playing 3D at best.
@@hammer3721 not to mention capturing tywin, who had at least as many cavalry as Robb and 15k infantry with 4k-6k cavalry in an ambush in Tywin's own lands is a damn crack pipe of a plan.
There was no way for Edmure to know that was Robb's plan, there was no way for *ROBB* to have had that as a plan when he left, and the odds of it actually succeeding where exceptionally slim. Tywin is not Jamie to run off chasing Robb's horse with a significantly smaller contingent of his own, and he has at the least parity in number of horse as well. Tywin commands the reserve, he stays out of the battle, and is a cautious commander, traits that make capturing him exceedingly difficult.
Thanks for this, well said! It kills me how everyone online says Ned is dumb, but completely overlook the fact that he's not a slimy politician. He's a man of honor and morals and bases his decisions on that. Those who don't understand have to ask themselves who's really the dumb one.
Thank you! Ned gets faaaaaaar too much crap in the fandom for being dumb. And I'm like yeah okay the guy who was instrumental in winning two wars and who has almost universal respect from his bannermen is an idiot lol
Thanks for this. Ned was aware of what might happen and did what he did because it was right. Doing the right thing when it is hard or inconvenient isn't being stupid.
Yeah I know it is annoying as hell. And considering the universe he was a very benign ruler, I mean he didn’t kill Barristan Selmy at the urging of his banner man Roose Bolton for one thing as well.
Sending out barrick dondarion was actually a politicaly smart move. He sent them out flying the kings banner, roberts banner. He was bating the lanisters to attack them, by doing so theyd be attacking the crown. He could then label them rebels and traitors, and call tywin to court to answer for his bannerman. The power Ned was using was the power to dicdate who is a rebel and who carries political legitimacy. The legitmacy of the crown is super important in determining who supports which side. Had robert lived, tywin would be in clear open rebellion against the crown
So Renly was supposed to hang around to watch a brother that barely likes him die and then share a black cell with ned after????? Ned turned down his swords and he made the only smart move and left like a thief in the night
He ended up in the field with a hundred thousands swords and was in such a strong position he could only be taken out by a Deus ex machina. I know which guy I'd have followed if I had the choice
@@jamescole1314 he would have made an amazing king
@@jamescole1314 yep and if he stayed in KL cersei would have never let him leave
Ned couldn't trust Renly's men and remarks as much in the same chapter where they were offered.
Renly is a usurping scumbag!
“Because catelyn messed the whole fuckin’ thing up” boom
I always theorized that Aegon will strangle Cersei. We know she's murdered children before, maybe Aegon discovers she ordered Clegane and Lorch to murder Elia and her children gruesomely out of jealousy.
Cersie didn't order for Elia and her children's death, Tywin did. Cersie wasn't even in kingslanding when they were killed
@@AnaPerez-jh4qg It seems it would've been cleaner if Tywin ordered it. Clegane and Lorch were at Casterly Rock prior to the march on King's Landing.
@@branphillips9546 Also Cersei was like… 15-16? I doubt people like Clegane would take an order from a 15 years old girl to murder a princess without confirmation from Tywin.
Tywin got his daughter in the royal family because this business couldnt be done cleanly. Robert didnt want to do it, but Tywin was there to take the blame(or part of it)
@@justadult3493 They would if it's their liege lord's daughter or if they got paid or if it sounded fun. Do you think Tywin Lannister looked at Gregor Clegane and Lorch then thought, "Ah yes, a giant mad dog and a fat coward; perfect assassins!" No, Tywin would've wanted Elia and Rhaenys alive to buy peace with Dorne. Aegon was the only threat to Robert. Rhaenys' claim (which only Dorne would support) would've been renounced in return for peace and safe passage to Sunspear.
@@branphillips9546 Tywin didnt need peace with Dorne. Tywin needed a crown on his daughter’s head.
Robert couldnt live with beggar claimant across the world, he wouldnt tolerate two actual claimants with support of Dorne in Westeros.
Basically, Robert wouldve killed them anyways. But instead, Tywin did it to win favors with the new King.
Tywin is a pragmatist, Robert was a rising power, Dorne and Targaryens were falling ones. Why would he flinch a finger to support them?
Back to first point, killing a Princess and heirs to throne isnt a something one would do without a powerful person behind it. Cersei was just a 15 years old girl
Robb Stark was probably roofied into the Jeyne bullshit - he was injured and drugged out of his mind for the pain, and the Westerlings got rewarded after the war.
Ned would of won the war if Cat would of just done what he asked.
The only thing is, when N confronts C, he thinks she killed Jon Arryn, the former Hand and his and Robert's 2nd father, for figuring our that her kids are bastards. It's impossible to view the situation completely without hindsight, but it's still a little naive to confront the woman you think killed your predecessor for the same reason you're about to confront her, and not expect some sort of reprisal. But other than this, I completely agree, the Tully women got him killed.
Thank you for your videos, I usually watch them several times. That said; A person can be intelligent and still do something stupid. This whole series is based on people doing things they definitely shouldn't do but do it anyway. Ned confronting Cersei gives her warning; whether she planned Robert's death or not before this moment; she definitely had time to move her timetable up; the rift between the houses had already been established because of Catelyn. The King's Wood isn't actually that far from King's Landing no matter how long Robert wants stay. Cersei can send someone there... the moment Ned confronted Cersei meant there was no way Ned was leaving with his honor in tact. Cersei only needed to discredit him and planned on sending him to the Night's Watch... even Cersei grasped the danger of enraging a whole kingdom against her. That said Ned should never have confronted Cersei; because if he is outnumbered by the Lannisters then his buddy Robert is outnumbered too.... a great commander, which Ned is, should have understood that and acted accordingly; which means not letting any of your enemies know anything..... Ned's decision is a real time example of Tywin's argument about killing on the battlefield or at dinner. Plus, it drives me nuts how many times female characters in this series get underestimated by readers.... Cersei despite being a horrible person and vain isn't dumb or less intelligent than her male counterparts that includes Ned. Most of the characters that are female are as intelligent or more than the males surrounding them. Even Sansa, despite her flaws, show a remarkable ability to adapt to situations her father would not or will not handle. Ned has a moment where he does something incredibly dense because of his emotions. It's not stupid; it's human and that's the hallmark of this series and characters that makes these interactions between characters so rich and worth reading.
100%
What people don't seem to realize is Ned already won the game of thrones once to put Robert on the throne, he was a top 5 player during that time maybe even the MVP. Furthermore it is Ned's schemes that produced all the RLJ, RLA, RLD, etc speculation not to mention the controversy about Jon's parentage which might be the biggest secret in westeros. So if you think Ned is stupid I have to question your own IQ.
A craftier player wouldn't have given Cersei the heads up but that's like half a mistake the rest is caused by Cat, Sansa and LF. Cersei was truly against the ropes and it's not like you can casually attempt regicide whenever. Ned's other mistakes are: not going straight to dragonstone to confront Stannis and ask him what gives, and not accepting Renly's offer to stage a semi coup, the rest was force majeure.
Cat didn't cause any defeat. She turned a position of weakness into a position of strength. The smart thing for the Lannisters is to complain to Robert about Tyrion's arrest and demand a trial. This is what Tyrion says. Attacking the Stark-Tully alliance is the dumb move but that's what Tywin did. If Robert lives, Ned does not even need to tell him about the twincest, once news of Tywin's actions in the Riverlands reaches court, the hammer of a united Westeros is coming down on Tywin's head. Catelyn failing to anticipate Tywin's overrunning the Riverlands is basically her expecting Tywin to be more intelligent. It's the same thing with Ned & Cersei: the smart thing for her to do is run. If she had, Joffrey would still be alive, Myrcella would still have both ears and she and Tommen might have lived to puberty. Also, with Robb & Balon Greyjoy. Of all the factions in the war, Robb is the only one who was not in complete opposition to Balon's own independence and coronation. Accepting his offer of alliance was the most sensible course of action. The Starks are repeatedly stymied by their opponents doing dumb, short-sighted things that bring everyone to grief, because they don't realize they are just dooming themselves a little slower than the Starks.
From Catelyn's point of view, she was not starting a war, the Lannisters were secretly waging a war against her family already and have killed her brother-in-law, crippled her son and tried to kill him as well. At least if something causes an open war to break out, the Starks will be able to see their enemies coming and fight them with their eyes open. What's more, her "provocation" is providing her side with a hostage. Expecting Lysa to turn on her is also a huge stretch, because, like with Ned & Cersei, it will just end up with Lysa isolated and alone, with no one she can count on. Nobles know this, and they just DON'T do it, they back their family up to the hilt. By any rational expectation, Catelyn should have come back from her trip to the Vale with a Lannister hostage and a good-sized number of troops committed to the fight.
Sansa affected nothing but the physical location where she spent the Lannisters' coup. She didn't give Cersei any sort of heads up or actionable intelligence that affected the outcome either way.
Accepting Renly's offer would have been as much of a trap a Littlefinger's. Renly might not be as specifically evil as Petyr and Tywin, but that's just because he's not as smart or urgent in his pursuit of his selfish agenda. Renly can afford to put on a nice face, because he thinks everything will work out for him, right up until he gets shadowbabied. What Renly wants is power for himself and he does not care how he gets it. He also is actively trying to prevent Stannis from taking the crown out of spite, or because he knows Stannis won't let him coast on his family name, and sit on the Small Council without earning it. If he wants to get Ned to oppose the Lannisters, all he has to do is mention the twincest, but he won''t admit it because that will make Stannis heir. He was sitting on that information until he could line up Margaery as Cersei's replacement, and prevent Robert from taking a queen over whom Renly has no influence. If Renly is the one supplying the muscle for Ned's seizure of power, then Ned is going to end up in the dungeon just the same as OTL when he insists on supporting Stannis' claim instead of whatever scheme for holding power Renly had in mind.
@@Gunleaver Hey thanks for shooting a comment to something I said a year ago lol, I'm not in the space of mind to reply but your comment was pretty good.
@@pelouch8474Thanks, I got lost making my own points and didn't get around to mentioning it, but your opening paragraph was spot on.
Cat convinced him to leave to King's Landing and she introduced Littlefinger in their scheme
Rob wasn't stupid...Rob was a kid. And kids don't have the experience.
This is gonna be long, it's a commentary on most of what was said (sorry).
Well, in my opinion little finger would've for sure went with Ned. He simply has more to gain that way. Having Cersie as an ally is risky at best. She'll just use him and get rid of him but what's better than having Ned Stark the most honourable man in the world as an ally? He'll never get rid of you just to shut you up and of course he'd have dirt on him. What would the honourable Ned Stark do knowing that a secret as big as buying men to capture the so called children of his friend is a bullet in little finger's gun? Most likely nothing. Even if you disagree the fact that anyone who knows the story will have to think about that question is proof enough of which is safer for little finger.
Btw, about Varys, I think that he would've backed up Ned as well. Or at least warn him that Sansa leaked his plans. I'm sure if it.
about the question of why Ned let little finger bribe the goldcloaks is (if my memory serves me) is basically just honour. I remember that little finger said something like "you know what should be done but you're too honourable to ask it" (meaning the bribing of the city watch) or something similar. Which I think actually is the case. He didn't want to dirty his hands to that degree.
Regarding Ned being stupid. It's actually simple. He CAN play the game of thrones BUT, he chooses not to. He sees through most of it if you read the book carefully. But let's say that telling little finger to bribe the goldcloaks was his fatal mistake. So what? Tyrion in all his glory at playing the game made an even bigger mistake. Only difference is that Tyrion had a brother in the city and that his family ruled over all so no risk to his brother there. So yeah, definitely not stupid.
Thats a good point. How did Littlefinger know he was Lord Protector? Really shows how deep his game goes or how deep his reach goes.
Yeah Ned has the worst luck in Westeros. Being forced to marry Cat was the worst chance he was dealt.
If Cersei and her children did leave King's Landing, and Robert did come back from the Hunt alive, how on Earth did Ned think that he would talk Robert down from tearing the Realm apart to get them back for cuckolding him?
Tywin wouldn't take this sitting down.
After the Dany argument, there is no way Robert doesn't punch Ned, since he willingly let them leave and didn't arrest them.
That Stannis, a brother Robert hates is now his heir? And Renly (the Lord of Storm's End and not Stannis) will be off to get the Tyrells on board. The Baratheon succession situation would be fascinating to watch.
Ned Stark isn't "dumb" he's just an Honourable Fool, just another kind of dumb ultimately.
@Your Wrongrewatching won't help when u r prejudiced af
It's not just the fans who keep saying it, the show itself does it, season 2 mostly Tryion going I"m not gonna be dumb like Ned" when he wasn't even there.
This and "The Starks don't do well in the south" meme really bother me with this fandom. Also Ned wasn't expecting literally every single person he talked to was breaking the law.
Pretty sure Littlefinger already had the Gold Cloaks (or at least some) in his pocket and I guarantee if Ned would have come out on “top” Littlefinger would have never turned on Ned, at least as soon as he did. As soon as Littlefinger realized Ned’s was about to fall he aligned himself with Cersi.
Ned is the one that decided to show his hand with Cersei before his children safely en route to Winterfell. Seems pretty dumb to me.
Re watch the video mate
I did. They do not address this. Closest arguement is "Ned didn't know Robert would die on his hunting trip." If I were in his shoes, I would personally place my children on the ship and I would watch it sail away before tipping Cersei to anything. (Especially with Sansa's comments about marrying Joffrey.) Honorable of Ned to try to give her a chance to save the lives of her children, but the timetable for this is completely under Ned's control. He is either: irresponsible or ignorant, and his family suffers for it.
@@LAKESIDE-LIVING Or if it gets right down to it, since Order of the Green Hand thinks so horribly of Catelyn, he's dumb for marrying her and for trusting her after all this time. Ned doesn't have the greatest insight into what motivates people.
Catelyn is worthless!!& A child abuser.😊
We surprised Renly would abandon Robert in his dying hours? He crowned himself king and was going to fight and kill Stannis if he didn’t kneel.