Killmonger in Black Panther , because Wakanda took everything away from him and T’Chaka abandoned him along with a dead father and his father chose to left his son in order to serve in Wakanda
That scene where Zemo destroyed all the vials of super soldier serum, such a good and meaningful scene. He doesn't seek power himself, he remained true to his character. That's a really good character development.
Also do like that he hesitated a little bit, even questioning Sam about it as a way to test his moral standards. Zemo despite being royalty is still very grounded, he’s not at all egotistical which is the main reason he’s being able to win the most out of all of the other villains
@@calixtobrilliantes4435 I watched the entire series and I'm well aware that Sam was referring to Marvin Gaye at that moment. Zemo is out of line, but he's right.
This is why I’ve always loved Marvel Comics… The world isn’t “Black & White” and they recognize the subtleties of “Right & Wrong”, “Good & Bad”, and “Pro & Con”…. Most of the heroes have their own darkness and the villains have their own light.
Totally agree While DC fits in "Black and White" category, DC still has it Own way with 5 shades of Dark and light Batman is light in the dark Superman is Light in the Light Red Hood is inbetween Darkseid is darkness in the dark Lex Luthor is darkness in the light
Aaaah, the short-sightedness of a neuro-typical ... "There is colour between Black and White." No, colour is nothing more than lies. Yes, but ... NO!!!! YES: you agree. ... but ...: is the beginning of the lie to make things less wrong. The "colouring of the truth". It is that simple.
I've always liked Zemo mostly due to Daniel Brühl's brilliant performance and charisma (yes I've been crushing over him since Inglourious Basterds), but now he's kinda my favorite non-superhero MCU hero? those murky, ambiguous, grey characters who've lost so much and have seen the worst of humanity and yet just want justice, true justice, are the best type of characters.
Very compelling argument. The truth is, Zemo was right, but, the Avengers were also right. Like Obi Wan Kenobi said, "many of the truths we cling to, depend greatly on our own point of view".
@@jeffreytorres2539 well, that's from the Avengers perspective. Did you ever consider the fact that Thanos may have been right? I really believe that Thanos was, or at least he thought he was, the hero of "Infinity War". He really believed that what he did was for the "greater good", and he sacrificed EVERYTHING to get it. What Thanos did, did make some people's lives better. Namely, Karlie and the Flag Smashers. So, from their perspective, Thanos was a hero. It all depends on your point of view.
Bring those receipts! There's so much gray in the marvel universe. Tony Stark created a deadly artificial intelligence and he did not suffer any legal consequences because of it. You know what I think we should all just recognize that Tony Stark really is the big bad of the marvel universe.
@@kb420ps for people who don't have family everybody else shouldn't lose their family because you lost yours... I say this as someone who lost my favorite person in the world I was shattered and it was precisely before endgame which made that movie hurt. None of that justifies everybody else losing theirs their are infinite planets why can't we terraform one force their to be more inevitable space because honestly your going to keep running into Thanos' problem because population basically doubles every generation so it would only take 20 years to be right back at the same issue that Thanos had.. You would have to snap away 90 percent of the population but leave enough mix of different skills that they can still run their buildings
@@dbird2997 bro intention is very important now I agree he should be liable however to pentene that we didn't know he was making these to be able to respond to threats around the world to help people is ridiculous.
"when the Avengers created time travel technology the didn't consider asking the UN for approval" - this is actually a HUGE point. They bascially doubled the Earth's population in an instant causing chaos and potentially a global famine. Not to mention having the prospect of fighting Thanos and his army again to ensure victory. Let's also not forget the reprecussions of Hulk's snap will be carried over in the Eternals - what sort of global devastation will this lead to? Could you imagine living in this world as an every day citizen? Facing potential devastation and damage almost every 5 years, how could you plan for the future in a world so chaotic?
@@GiantButterKnife That insurance company exists in the comics. They’re called “Damage Control.” The MCU version of them showed up at the beginning of Spiderman: Homecoming. IRL their premiums would have to be insane. Nobody could afford insurance against “random acts of superhuman/alien/magic/robotic destruction” and superheroes would spend the majority of their time rebuilding shit they helped destroy. OR much of the world would just constantly be sitting in obliterated ashes. Yes. Comics are stupid.
Not to mention that their going back in time lead to the events of Loki which ultimately unleashed the Multiverse. The only threat The Avengers weren't directly responsible for was the 2012 battle of New York. Everything else from Ultron on, they were responsible for creating.
When they’d collected the stones the next step should have been consulting governments. “We can bring everyone back, how are we going to do this?” There was no immediate need to rush to bring them back. Indeed if they’d waited, once thanks them arrived the snap could have bought people back and got rid of thanos
Can we agree that as a character Zemo is being treated extremely unfairly - at least in comparison. He had a traumatic experience when Ultron messed things up in Sokovia. His entire family was extinguished, his country basically destroyed. There was nobody he could turn to and nowhere he could go. He swore to avenge his family and... well, then he went about it. And he was good at it. Yes, he did some pretty messed up shit, but seriously, so did close to everyone who made any sort of difference. We've covered everything from murder to treason. But as soon as there's a desirable result, we simply forget about all of that. Because why hold a grudge, right? And then along comes a young woman who tricks a gangster boss, obtains physical power, creates a rebellion, starts to make things violent, effectively becomes a terrorist. At the same time the "evil mastermind" Zemo is trying to help keep things from escalating. Here's what happens. Sam (to Karli, who just threatened his family): I agree with your fight. Sam (to Zemo who saved his sorry ass twice the past two days): You're going back to prison. Just... 😒 And not just any prison. Zemo goes to the Raft once he successfully helped finish the mission. Like... Wtf?!?!
Was Zemo effective? Yes. However, did he truly cared about the innocent he killed? The apology to black panther or that other guy, doesn't truly prove anything. He still involved and killed many innocent lives, and for what? Essentially only for _the end justyfys the means._ Great, so he acted exactly, like Stark and the others, making him only a hypocrit.
That clip of Mondo saying "The bill comes due, always" makes me think that he and Zemo (the 'two Barons') should team-up. They're both arguably the MCU's most sympathetic villains (even Killmonger, despite having an overall sympathetic agenda, showed little humility or self-reflection during his mission), because both of them are basically opposed to the abuse of power that characterises the franchise's 'heroes'.
Killmonger is a seesaw, flipping from oppressed to oppressor without question, without realization that he's only a continuation of the hate. That's why what Black Panther did was fix what Killmonger tried to achieve, finding balance not by vengeance and power, but by financially supporting and providing opportunities to people who would have so little of them.
Zemo is one of my favorite characters in the MCU and my fave villain. He's just so brilliant and always finds a way to basically WIN when you least expect him to. Daniel Bruhl was cast so perfectly for him. Can't go wrong when you hire the world's most talented actor to play your character.
brilliantly lucky? Lucky that he is a scripted character or none of his "brilliant" plans would ever have worked cause they are born of stupid logic. Imagine blaming the firefighters for the fire.
It's not that Zemo is right, it's that Zemo has a really, really good point. Two things that are very close but not exactly the same. Also, I like that he's the only villain that arguably won against the Avengers. He wanted to mess them up internally and boy howdy, he sure did that.
your good point shows that you don't need super people to stop other super people. a brilliant strategist can bring stronger individuals to their knees. that is assuming there is a flaw to exploit, which there usually is. a similar thing happens in marvel's "what if" animated series. T'challa somehow is also star lord. he convinces Thanos that there is a way to create enough resources for everyone so that everyone doesn't have to be killed for there to be enough resources.
I really appreciated you pointing out that having a good point is not the same as being right. One of the greatest difficulties the human race faces is failing to make such distinctions.
Falcon and the winter may not be on a cosmic fighting level compared to wandavision and loki but the writing the message it conveys hits closer, plus zemo is awesome, hope to see more of him someday in mcu
@@emk2214 The Falcon and the Winter Soldier is my favorite post End Game series. The secret that Bucky hid from even Steve Rogers after he told Wilson that a black super soldier existed before Steve Rogers became Captain America and how he was treated paints a most likely real picture of things despite the series being a story of fiction.
I don't think they would agree. Thanos is the ultimate problem in Zemo's POV. He his almost a god, megalomaniac and doesn't give a shit about everyone else except Gamora.
Am I the only one who would love to see a Zemo series on Disney+? I wouldn’t even mind if he killed off some comic supersoldier like Warhawk. Kinda just want to see more of Daniel Brühl tbh. What an actor.
Villains like Zemo and Thanos are the best kind of villains because they are so overwhelmingly right that you can’t really argue their point, just their methods. That kind of dissonance is perversely satisfying.
@@capcorn7872 You can’t change the laws of physics. A planet is only so large. Adding more planets throws everything out of whack. It’s like sculpting. You can easily remove material than add it. Again, you can argue Thanos’ methods, but he remains a sympathetic character who lost a lot to get to where he was.
@@woodcider there is a stone called reality stone so how does changing physics too much farfetched? Thanos is not symphatetic at all. His backstory is his planet died is not personal at all since we dont see his family dying like at all.
I always thought it was weird that the Avengers weren’t given the opportunity to modify or negotiate the Sokovia accords. This is what happens in most treaties, business agreements etc. They were just told to sign. Certain provisions could have provided enough restriction for accountability and enough independence for efficiency.
I always felt the fact that they were told just to agree to the accords was in itself a test of their willingness to accept such an accord to begin with. Imagine having to negoiate a treaty with superbeings who could wipe the floor with you into submission to a contract. They are by default in a superior position.
That’s my thought for the Geneva convention and the UN. It’s bunch of political crap that knowing every country party would be a nightmare to understand. Is like have a democratic or republican explain there vision to worker’s party of Brazil and the labor party in Britain. So much political drama no wonder we are about to butt heads in Ukrainian war.
I sympathized why Tony Stark had a change of heart despite being directly responsible for a lot of stuff in the MCU. But I couldn't blame Steve Rogers not signing those accords. Of course, those accords were about 1500 plus convoluted pages of gibberish. And like today's modern government amendments, people are asked to vote yes or sign such accords and proposed laws. To sort of trust the wordings. Even good lawyers would have challenges navigating through all that.
I always had a problem with general Ross lecturing the Avengers. In Incredible Hulk, he gave Blonski the super soldier serum who later became the Abomination. He also confronted Banner on a college campus triggering his transformation without any regard for the civilians present. He called in a gunship for god's sake. Or how about chasing Abomination through Harlem firing a 50 cal through a densely populated city. I'm sure no one died while he blasted away into those apartments while chasing Abomination. Or how about the fact that the world council authorized nuking New York city in the first Avengers movie? The Avengers were never on their own. They worked for Shield. Two shield agents (Widow and Hawkeye) were on the team.
This just adds to the reality that is mirrored in Greek tragedy. Heroes and gods had a similar relationship to the citizens of Greece especially when it comes to how they adapted them to the theater.
Which ties into the argument between Supervision (to possibly create new agendas for the governments of the world, that benefit them and not the heros, giving them the greatest advantage in the world) v. Not Supervision (the opportunity for several superhuman and vigilantes making decisions and committing calateral damage that negative impacts "the little people.") He had briefly discuss this in earlier in the video.
@@SpFlash1523 i mean to be fair, what about the governments themselves, who are also technically unsupervised yet can still make catastrophic decisions that hurt many people in the long run anyway? When were the people who were hurt by these decisions ever asked about them? I’m surprised no one even brought up the fact that the Flag Smashers were also standing up for people who were thrown to the side and had to steal food that the government was harboring for no supposedly good reason other than “you don’t understand how complex this is.” FUCKING EXPLAIN IT, IS IT THAT HARD??? If there is one thing F&WS did right it was painting the villains and even the heroes grayer than just black and white. Granted Zemo was right about some things, he was also wrong about others - he also bombed the U.N. and killed plenty of people working for government organizations; he works with criminal organizations that are also without government supervision yet function on the scale of an entire nation; he’s rich as hell while people like the flag smashers were helping people who had nothing. I don’t buy this whole “he’s right!” because the reality is there was no one who was wholly correct - everyone in the show has their own agendas that may have good and noble means to it, yet it’s twisted in a way that justifies their actions. The Flag Smashers want to help people and believe violence and murder are the only solution to the problem. Zemo believes super humans are supremacists and need to be stopped, while also taking will into his own hands and committing the same atrocities he’s supposedly trying to make a point against. Walker is one of the exact extremes that Zemo worried about, yet again the people in charge that supposedly know better in this situation, still just gave him a “slap on the wrist.” Flawed arguments swayed by reasonable but deceptive logic.
@@averyjenson thank you!!! I think I was the only one who watched the flag smasher more than just terrorist, the goverment give them homes, jobs, and oportunities to be better outside their poor countries But as soon as the blip they were kickout without an explanation even tho they were the ones who keep their economy stable for 5 years, of course they'll be angry and no one wants to listen to them. Obviously killing some senators was not the right move, but the rest of their crimes I can understand it. Stealing food for refugees and inmigrants it's a really sad situation maybe because I'm from latin america and much of the time "riots that ended up in fire" it's the only way to be heard just in 2019 seven of 13 countries in latin america were in protest fights and a lot of fire for the injustice
@@averyjenson lol the flag smashers were dumb as bricks, they shouldn't need an explanation and neither should you. its so simple even my little sister understood it and she is 12. that food was for other people, there are only so much resources and (more importantly) the infrastructure to move and store it. people had to work to make it too and need compensation. you can't just take what you want or move where you want to move to, because that affects other people and doing so literally makes you a marauding brigand, a barbarian who goes around pillaging because they feel entitled to it. like vikings, huns and pirates. literally worse than imperialists, at least they build infrastructure (and other minor compensation) when they leach off other people. it wasn't food hoarded for no apparent reason, we are explicitly told it was stuff for helping the blippers who returned to a world where they no longer had jobs or houseing. ie refugees making up almost half the planet's population (or atleast the vast majority that would have been unable to re-inter society in the short period of time since their return, it takes a while for economies to adjust to such large population changes). they were stealing from the poor and disenfranchised who did nothing wrong, all because they felt entitled as they had been given some property that they didn't earn themselves 5 years ago. the flag smashers were representing the people who directly benefitted from the deaths of billions of people and now don't want to give up their privileged lifestyle now that it is not sustainable. to the point they actively and violently steal from refugees and the systems helping them. they weren't helping people who had nothing, they were helping people who had to give back their borrowed wealth and didn't like it. hell they wanted things to go back to the way things were when there was only half the population on the planet, sorry but thats just extremely dumb (or extremely selfish/evil as anyone with a brain would realize the implication is to kill off the blippers/half the population, especially since the flag smashers are using violent means). simply put the flag smashers deserved to be treated far worse by the show than they actually were. they should have been treated like hydra or thanos (evil people who try and justify, mostly for the sake of their own conscious, evil selfish acts) and the fact you seem to empathize with them is worrying.
17:19 something I hadn't realized, Tony was still justifying ultron in endgame. A threat that we now know capable of eradicating all life in the multiverse. Marvel really are good at writing flawed characters. Tony was a genius, as can be seen in his suits and combat, but he was still as blind as everyone else.
Not to mention that he blamed Cap because he wanted a suit of armor around the world. Wasn’t that what Vision was supposed to basically be as his replacement for the mistakes of Ultron? He got his Vision so how was Cap a liar. Every time I watch that movie I’m yelling at the tv “he was their fighting just like u. It wasn’t his fault u hopped on a flying donut or that u managed to sign him into being a fugitive/criminal.”
@@occheermommy I think the liar bit was about Cap covering up Bucky's involvement in the murder of Tony's parents, but I guess it could have been something else. At the very least, it was a lie by omission.
Zemo is absolutely right, at least on the merits if not on the means. I hope Disney is able to keep exploring that argument and confronting the various heroes with it; it’d be fascinating to see a Zemo-inspired team facing off against, say, a Thunderbolts or Dark Avengers.
There is one other aspect that none of the movies have touched on yet, and that is the issue of hero-worship. Most of the Avengers did not ask to be born with powers, they did not seek it out. It was thrust upon them. Thor was born a god. Captain America did seek to become a super soldier; but to keep people safe not because he wanted power. Black Widow was kidnapped and brainwashed into being an assassin. Vision was created he didn't seek anything. The Hulk became the Hulk via an accident. Hero worship is one thing that's never been dealt with. People putting the heroes on a pedestal and then expecting them to be infallible. At the end of the day they're still human beings. Most of them never asked to be put in that position, yet people seek to blame them when things happen, while they hold them to impossible standards. Yes things like Ultron where the Avengers' fault (well Tony really). But things like Hydra infiltrating SHIELD were not. I am willing to bet that Hydra has caused much more damage, destruction, and death than The Avengers have.
Both Iron Man 2 and Iron Man 3 dealt with Hero Worship. In IM2, it is specifically about tearing down Tony as the ultimate hero, not just by Ivan Drago, but also Hammer, the U.S. Government and more, while everyone else loved him. He had incredible leeway in anything and everything he wanted to do. In IM3, you meet several characters - including the villain - who are the way they are either because they worship Tony as their hero, or prop him up as their ultimate obstacle - their villain. All the while, imposing a vulnerability - a flaw - in the hero with his PTSD from the Battle of New York. Captain America and the Winter Soldier and Captain America: Civil War, both also deal with Hero Worship but in a different way. Instead of it being about a Hero that can do anything, it is about a Hero that can inspire anyone. Steve inspires Shield Loyalists to fight off Hydra sleeper agents, even though many of them were friends and colleagues for years. Meanwhile in Civil War, he inspired a team of renegades, to sacrifice themselves so that he could get away and stop the villain - even when he himself didn't like the idea. He even inspires Tony in the end, who, while he clearly hasn't forgiven Steve, he does at least respect him, enough to brush off Secretary Ross when Steve busts the renegade Avengers out (a similar reaction that Adrian The Vulture has with Peter Spider-man). If Iron Man teaches us the dangers of Hero Worship, Captain America teaches us why we do it anyway.
@@felixfeliciano7011 all of these people that you mentioned are people who were in the same industry circles with the Avengers or had working relationships with them. I'm talking about the general public like Zemo's family or just your average everyday person. The only person I can recall that was your average everyday person was Harley Keener. But he was a child. None of the movies have addressed how hero-worship can make it impossible for the team to function because it would be impossible for them to never have any consequences to their actions. It's that concept of "you can't please all the people all the time" that I'm referring to.
@@micah06v8 I would agree with that. In the first avengers movie you have the government guy saying it was their mess when it was the government that got them into it. In civil war you have Ross saying all of these Events were their fault when conceivably the only one truly their fault was Ultron. Yes they may have been In Lagos without government approval but had they let that virus go how many millions would it have killed. Yes they needed some accountability but many times they were cleaning up other peoples messes. Idt the sokovia accords were the answer but I don’t think letting them run wild or blaming them for things they weren’t responsible for was the answer either. It’s like when people blamed soldiers for problems the government made. There is only so much they can do
I always thought Zemo was an interesting villain. The deleted alternate scene of him getting the winter soldier book shows of why I like him Also he’s a villain that doesn’t have a huge ego which is the primary reason he’s one of the few villains with a winning streak
I thing you missed something important in Sam Wilson's speech to the senator : he did gave them a solution to be better by asking them to invite the people who will be affected by their decisions. It's for me the central point of his argument : "Who is in the room when you're making those decisions? Is it the people you're gonna impact, or is it just more people like you?", the next line is a call to listen to the reason why Karli Morgenthau did what she did, and to listen to the people concerned. I know it's relevant in the series in a broad call for the respect of the lives of minorities, but it's still a good advice from Captain America to the leaders of the world (and I wish we have this kind of impulse in our reality/timeline too). (And also, he doesn't only say "you have to do better", he also says "we have to do better", including him, probably echoing the warning from Zemo in his mind).
100% agreed. "Who's in the room with you when you're making these decisions, is it more people like you or is it the people who are gonna be affected?" was pretty solid. I loved that part.
The thing is the older I get the more I can relate to the villains in a movie. I do not agree with their methods but I 100 percent see where they are coming from and agree with their judgment.
I couldn’t agree more. I said the exact same thing. Both are my favorite Marvel characters. Both are incredibly complex characters and are not 2 dimensional.
I really hope the MCU doesn't go that direction when they eventually introduce mutants. The allegory of mutants with unpredictable (at times uncontrollable) powers standing in for oppressed minorities just doesn't hold up that well under any amount of scrutiny.
I wish Zemo would have had more time with Tony and more specifically Steve. I think conversations between them would have resonated more in the two heroes and influenced their choices more. Knowing Zemo was always a Cap villain it kind of seemed dumb to me that the only time they encountered each other in the whole series was when Zemo was behind a blast door and made them watch a security tape, then immediately tried to leave and got a moment with T'Challa while Cap and Tony were fighting. The MCU fails to remember time and time again that Steve in this portrayal is built on a lot of strong stances on freedom and should have had some time to actually match wits with the harsh realities that Zemo was presenting.
This is one of the limitations of live action movies. The hero only meets their villain for a few brief moments and then we'll never see them meet again.
Thank you for bringing up the events of Endgame! I understand ya know NOT telling the government(s) of the world about a time travel device to avoid the WRONG people getting their hands on it. However, before bringing everyone back via Hulk's snap; I always thought ya know they'd inform some one of importance or at least warn the world; "Hey, we're about to bring back the missing population so brace yourself..."
exactly because when you watch spiderman far from home, wandavision and falcon and the winter solder, thats when you realise it was pure chaos.....especially the hospital scene in wandavision
Also playing with time is always dangerous, Thanos coming and potentially killing everyone was surprisingly the least bad part of their plan The worst part was the events that lead to Kangs release. Granted no one could have seen that coming, but still nothing good comes from playing with time. What if… kind of showed what new dangers have been released now that the multiverse has been opened. My sister said well at least we have multiple universes in the chance one’s destroyed true until you get someone like Kang or spider-verse’s kingpin. People who can travel in between universes. Then one universe’s problem becomes the problem of many universes
First, they didn't know it would work. It was an attempt. Second, what did you expect that info to do? For the population to stand around and wait for the snapped to come back?
I deeply respect Martin Scorsese and his contribution to cinema, but themes like these in superhero movies show how his comment, and those who agreed, were full of resentment and impotence. Accountability is a top tier subject.
The Infinity Saga was a 23 episode story, which is the same number of parts as a US network TV show. Scorsese wasn’t being pretentious. He raised a legit question about the nature of cinema and how the MCU belongs to, and differs from, that. Fan boys, however, aren’t interested in the study of film as an art form and in their ignorance they take Scorsese’s remarks as an insult. This video wasn’t even about Scorsese and yet here we are 🤣
Totally agree. Scorsese is one of my favorites, Taxi Driver & Good Fellas are on my Top 10 movies of all time list. But a blanket statement like "superhero movies are ruining cinema" came off like a jealous, shallow comment from a cranky old man.
I generally love Marvel movies but I like them even more when they take their movies or tv shows in more political way that's why I love captain America the winter Soldier, captain America civil war and Falcon and the winter Soldier
Zemo's brilliant speech reminds me of how we treat celebrities, and even politicians, on social media: "we put them on pedastals...and then we start to forget about their flaws..."
It all seems to boil down to hubris: the Avengers' attitude that theirs are the best hands to leave major decisions in, Stark's arrogance and ego that led to him making so many mistakes, Parker's belief in his own ability to handle difficult adult situations, Strange's nigh-unshakeable belief in his own judgment regarding dimension-shaking events, and so much more. Every single thing mentioned is a form of hubris, which is the foundation of every Greek tragedy written. Zemo has a level of clarity regarding hubris that is almost a super-power, in its own right. He has the equivalent of an aerial view of these moral and ethical situations, which grants him such amazing insight. Unfortunately, Zemo is wired like a vigilante without a code against killing: he uses others and kills those he sees as being part of the problem in order to reach his ultimate goals. That leaves him with the appearance of a pure villain to those who know nothing of his motivations, or the truth of his knowledge. Given enough time, I have no doubt Zemo could find a way to bring the supers to heel, and prevent them from causing any more devastation, though the cost would be bloody. As to whether or not he's a hero, future people might view him as one, if they had the full story and Zemo managed to achieve his goals.
Great post. This seems to underline the paradox beyond the movies about how humans are inherently imperfect, thus the heroes will always have their flaws and cannot be expected to be right all the time. The idea can be applied to other "good guys" in our society.
I always said Civil War was a metaphor for our government. Neither SIDE is right...parts of what they say are but instead of compromising they end up further apart.
Zemo is amazing. The genius of his character and view of the world and superpowered individuals. Not just a brute force bad guy, but the one who will come out on top before you realize he’s won.
great video..as non comic book fan, these video puts so many things in perspective past, present and future events that are yet to happen in MC universe
"Avengers went back into time on their own accord without understanding the risks or consequences. While it worked out pretty well..." Kang: "Oh yes, it worked out perfectly, Thanks Avengers!"
Zemo was right. I understand his point of view and I am not sure based on facts how much he is a villain. He seems to be a Hero based on the given information.
Zemo reminds me of Lex Luthor in the sense that he believes in if God protects man then who protects us from a God who gets too powerful. Then enter injustice in which Luthor made his point.
I don't know why this didn't cross my feet until today, but I think you're absolutely right. And so was Zemo. You did a really good job of making this point. I hope a lot of people, especially those under 20, listen to it and really think about it.
There's a theory going around that Tony didn't HAVE to die in Endgame....but Dr Strange deliberately set him up to sacrifice himself because he determined Tony was just too dangerous to be left alone.
I'd say it's a bit unfair to say the Avengers are complicit in the creation of Ultron. The only one who seemed to have any knowledge that Ultron was being created by Tony was Banner, who assisted in the creation. The rest were kept in the dark.
A very valid argument. I love the way the Disney Plus shows have brought to light the "Grey" zone of morality in MCU and the fact that life isn't just "Good and Evil"
One catch Killmonger is a supremacist. He wanted the herb and the power of Wakanda to do what he needs. And he is more villian than an anti-hero because he betrays and kills his own allies.(more evident in his what if episode)Zemo is trustworthy ally he may be annoying but he never betrayed sam and bucky. He helped them to a great extent.
@@batmanthecapedcrusader3916 He did it all to help oppressed black people around the world his methods were horrible but he was doing it for a good reason he did the wrong things for the right reasons
@@ThatGuyEclipz330 I would love to see zemo and killmonger work together but I don't think that would be possible because their motivations and goals are different , killmonger's motivations are related to racism that to zemo's motivation are related to what are the threats of superheroes in our real world , but I gotta admit they are my favorite villans including Thanos in the MCU
I love the questions and the well thought out arguments Ryan presents. This is so fascinating and so heartbreaking at the same time because there is no easy fix to this problem. You come up with a plan, chances are, it won't be the best one and millions or billions will be hurt by that fact. There's just too many variables to say what is right.
10:54 Those terrorists already fought them with the intent to kill, not to mention he saw his best friend get killed moments before this scene. I wouldn´t really call it "in cold blood"
@@nakachinjah7240 He isn't the villain, even the director of the show after seeing all the hate against him said you all will end up loving him by the end of the show. He's a morally grey character, just like Bucky and Zemo.
"(Darkness) (When it grows light again, the bell is still booming, then it stops. Virginia has left. Galileo's pupils are still there) ANDREA (loudly) Unhappy the land that has no heroes! (Galileo has come in, completely, almost unrecognizably, changed by the trial. He has heard Andrea's exclamation. For a few moments he hesitates at the door, expecting a greeting. As none is forthcoming and his pupils shrink back from him, he goes slowly and because of his bad eyesight uncertainly to the front where he finds a footstool and sits down) ANDREA I can't look at him. I wish he'd go away. SAGREDO Calm yourself. ANDREA (screams at Galileo) Wine barrel! Snail eater! Have you saved your precious skin? (Sits down) I feel sick. GALILEO (calmly) Get him a glass of water. (The little monk goes out to get Andrea a glass of water. The others pay no attention to Galileo who sits on his footstool, listening. From far off the announcer's voice is heard again) ANDREA I can walk now if you'll help me. (They lead him to the door. When they reach it, Galileo begins to speak) GALILEO No. Unhappy the land that needs a hero." The Life of Galileo, Bertolt Brecht, scene 13
This video does bring up some interesting things about the current structure of how superhero stories are told. Even in the MCU. I think going forward it would be a good idea to start to have the heroes interact with the people more to show that they do care and that ultimately their intent is to protect them and make things better. It’s not enough to only respond to threats you’ve caused or extra terrestrial.
This was a thoughtful analysis, and I appreciate it. The Accords have more issues than just possible deadlock but unfortunately they are clearly outlined in the film. You have to read it on the Wiki and probably the only people who wondered what was in them are people who were familiar with the problems in the Superhuman Registration Act in the comics. That doesn't mean that oversight is not needed, however - only that the Accords themselves were flawed legislation. Zemo is one of the more fascinating characters in the MCU right now and I hope we see more of him. I think the question is complex and sometimes it is overshadowed by some really bad arguments made by some of the characters, or the way it is presented. In my opinion some of the best fiction is created when the narrative is dealing with these kinds of conflicts. I understand why CA: Civil War veered off to deal with the issue of Bucky - who is the one character I do not hold responsible for most of the bad on his place since he was literally mind controlled at the time, but it took away from the ability of the film to confront to core question it posed. I had hoped we'd see it come up again in a more satisfactory way, but we ran into Infinity War and ultimately I do get not waiting around to hash out the issue while Thanos was trying to kill half of all life in the universe. Wanda, while one of my favorite characters right now, is a case in point for why there should be oversight. What happened in Nigeria was not actually her fault despite the way it was portrayed, and I understand that at first in Westview she didn't know what she'd done but eventually she did and she didn't shut it down immediately. There should be consequences for this. They should take into account all factors but there should still be consequences. However, it's virtually impossible to do anything about it unless Wanda consents to arrest and trial, something we all know she isn't going to do. And that's a problem. I wonder if the Thunderbolts or the Dark Avengers are going to be put forward as a model of a "superhero" team that is operating under oversight. I know it'll be corrupt, that's clear from Val's presence and the likelihood of Ross stepping up to the fore as Red Hulk, but it could still be a demonstration of how something like that might work. Maybe there is still hope that Marvel will come at this question again in a more thoughtful way. I guess we'll see. Just a quick nitpick: SWORD was working on White Vision before Wanda took Westview hostage. They weren't able to bring him online without a sample of Wanda's power (because it was the same as the energy from the Mind Stone). It just happens that they first deployed White Vision against Wanda.
Zemo circa Civil War is just a man overwhelmed by his vengeance. It's only in Falcon and the Winter Soldier that they make him an interesting, carefully crafted character that is presented in this video
This video is actually quite hypocritical in itself. For example, if Karli is 'just a terrorist' then Zemo is exactly the same. He too, is far gone in his own extreme views; just like Karli, killing everyone he views as a supremacist. The argument being presented that he isn't a terrorist because he "genuinely regrets the atrocious things he had to do" is also quite deaf. I don't think Karli was joyous in here crimes, I think she genuinely wanted to make things better - exactly how Zemo is. Arguing Zemo is somehow the hero is just sensationalist nonsense. And lets not forget that very moment in the video where the crux of the argument lies on the foundation that 'everyone with ultimate power and no supervision will ultimately be corrupted,' and immediately at 10:45 Zemo admits Steve wasn't corrupted. Basically proving that as Steve was told in The First Avenger, "the serum amplifies everything that's inside" --- it isn't the infinite power that corrupts, the power only amplifies the corruption already within so many.
If we ignore some of their flaws, all the three MCU Disney Plus shows were *really good* in some aspects, way better than half the MCU movies out there.
You emphasize with Zemo, even if you don't totally agree with him. Some other points: Captain America might have agreed with the Sokovia Accords years earlier, but the events of Captain America: The Winter Soldier (finding out Hydra was rebuilding within SHIELD for decades and was planning to eliminate tens of millions of people once they got total control) caused him to not trust large organizations or governments again. Tony Stark got scared straight for a while after Ultron backfired so badly and nearly destroyed the world - that's why he was for the accords, because (though he wouldn't admit it) he wanted someone else in charge of him, finally. Tony also has a recurring problem of creating villains by his actions (Aldrich Killian, Adrian Toomes and others) and finding out repeatedly he's the villain in his story, not the hero. When he became Iron Man, he found Stark Industries wasn't making the world safer and they were double dealing under the table for the sake of profits. Then creating Ultron to fill the gap left by SHIELD ends up nearly destroying the world. Finally, his efforts to 'save' the Avengers through the Sokovia Accords just works to keep them fragmented and apart rather than together, as he creates a wedge of mistrust between himself and Cap that lasts for years. It's only by the end of Avengers: Endgame that Tony is finally the hero he wanted to be.
This is something that came out with my friends after watching "Return of the Dark Knight" and realising Batman is a psycopath with combat trainig and resources. Every hero who is independant is by definition, a vigilante, thus is a criminal at the eyes of the law. The only way you could have heroes working in a "safe" way is if they are institutionalized, becoming gubernamental employees. Of course in a realistic setting, this would lead to things like The Boys or Watchemn, where the "heroes" have no sense of responsabolity of their actions, or are simply black OPS for the military. If you look at "My Hero Academia", Hero is an actuall profession, and there are schools for heroes, where they are taught to use their powers but also to be a public servant, first aid, crowd control and other safety rules to minimize the danger to others while they protect the people. In the real world, this would be no different to a career like police agent, firefighters or paramedic.
Depends on how many people get powers. If there are only a handful of heroes, there'd be no way to make a career out of it. Whether or not they'd subject themselves to the law (from whatever country they come from) is also arguable, and depends on the person and how much power they have.
Its probably gonna happen but I wonder if a guy who dislikes super humans would join a team of super humans? And what is Zemo's specialty gonna be on that team, if he's not leading it? Because it seems lie Val is.
@@user-hf2dr7sh4y then we get avengers and mutants all mixed up in teams all over the world to protect the peace. West coast avengers has a mutant in it like Wolverine while X-Caliber has a non mutant superhero in it like Captain Britain, etc... and Hulk goes insane and takes over CA and Ross sends wolverine to hunt him down.
@@user-hf2dr7sh4y Yup, start clearing dead money and move forward with new actors for young avengers and then bring in the big old stars for some greatest hits of all time CGI de aged avengers on veteran scale salaries. The time cop avengers that fight all of kangs bullshit can help with that. Faster they burn through it the faster they can reboot in 2037.
I love your video essays. This is one of your best. It is absolutely brilliant. I normally find myself with villians in movies, stories, and TV especially, villians with integrity like Zemo. A great villian points out hero's flaws and short coming. This video hits different after watching the Killmonger What If episode. Ultron said it best: You[Avengers or heroes] want to save the world but, you don't want it to change.
So many new pop culture philosophies have explored the "one last time" mentality that heroes should have. The MCU analogy would be Cap leaving the battle at the end of Endgame, like Washington retiring in Hamilton.
Zemo, so when we finally get the THUNERBOLTS we will have had plenty of seeds planted (Yelena and Walker) to the creation of that "balancing" force (just remembered White Vision) with more opportunities for complex story telling based on characters acting in archetypal roles. MCU rules !!!!
Great video. You may have already done this in the past, but if you have not, to do a video exploring how many of the villains or problems in the MCU were directly related to Tony Stark's bad decisions
Excellent argumentation. This is the problem with an ongoing superhero universe. Sooner or later the power fantasy of the vigilante is going to lead to nasty consequences you have to answer. I'm hoping that the MCU has a plan to tackle these issues because the ending of Wandavision left me truly shaken for days (the woman begging to have her daughter added to the plot so she can leave her room was crushing). There has to be a reset of some kind at some point otherwise the psychopathic behavior of the heroes is gonna get dark.
My issue with the Sokovia Accords is, somewhat ironically, the same issues Zemo has with the Avengers; I don't like it when a bunch of people I don't know, and will never meet, convene to make decisions on my behalf which I am then forced to deal with the consequences of, and if I protest then I'm the bad guy for doing so. Because "they're the good guys", and anyone who disagrees with the "good guys" is obviously a "bad guy".
The topic in this video, ah we can talk about it for hours. Good content Ryan. Sums up the fact that he was completely outta line but he had some great points. Just giving a heroic speech is not enough. The heroes should help with how resources should be allocated if they do not trust the system, they should be the system and then find out bending bureaucracy is tougher than fighting supervillains
Zemo definitely had a point. Tony Stark had basically become a villain. He made a sentient AI that ended up killing thousands and almost killed billions. After he made the killer AI, he went and made ANOTHER, even more advanced, more powerful robot. He ultimately wanted to take away everyone's freedoms for his "suit of armor around the world" as well. At the beginning of Endgame he even said that our "precious freedom" wasn't worth it. However, Zemo *was* evil. He let hate and revenge consume him. He murdered multiple people in cold blood. He had become a sociopath. We need more Steve Rogers and T'Challas in this world. Men who would lay down their lives for humanity without enforcing their own way on others.
Zemo is an indirect product of the Avengers. He would have never been a bad guy if it wasn’t for the “good guys” destroying his town/people. The Avengers avenged (taking revenge for an offense) the people who Loki killed & his attempt to take over earth in the first movie. In the second one they try to fix their own mistakes. Kinda ironic because this leads to Civil War in which Zemo tries to tear them apart and actually makes him an avenger. There is no true good/evil. It is just about all perspective. In order for “good” to exist there needs to be “evil” ☯️ when things get off scale there will be a clash/conflict to rebalance it. “With great powers comes great responsibility” which what makes these superheroes (especially Marvel) very relatable to us who enjoy them so much. In the end we as human can achieve a lot of great things but we are also our own biggest enemy because we have a tendency to get ahead of ourselves and do more harm to others than we realized.
okay i think you threw a sociopath word veeery loosley here without really knowing what that means. sociopaths do not feel empathy or remorse for their actions. They have no sense of right and wrong. They often do bad things because it brings them joy, they just like to hurt people. Zemo explictly said in civil war he doesn't want to hurt anyone, but if there's no other option he will. He knows what he did was wrong , and he apologized for it (the clips from those scence are in the video) he never hurts others for fun, he has strong sense of right and wrong so no, Zemo is definetly not a sociopath.
@@gabibukadajebucha I know what a sociopath is. They are someone that is born normal but close off their emotions and are able use/mistreat others without remorse...exactly the way Zemo did with the Avengers and the way he murdered that man in the cargo crate/secret lab, execution style. PS He also murdered multiple people in Civil War. His words that he didn't want to hurt anyone mean nothing when his actions show him repeatedly murdering people, without remorse.
@@davidm4566 Zemo is not a good person but, not being good doesn’t equal with being a sociopath. Zemo shows remorse for killing T’chaka and using Bucky, he doesn’t show remorse for destroying the avengers because they were responsible for his family death, or for killing dr. Nigel because the man was a mad scientist, an eugenic who thought himself to be a god and would keep making super soldier serum if Zemo didin’t kill him. i’m not saying what he did was good but i don’t think it’s very different from when heroes kill villains. and like i said, sociopaths hurt people for their pleasure and because they think they can, because they’re better than everyone else. Zemo exactly like he said didn’t enjoy killing, but he thought it was nessecery to his plan. but why am i even writing all of this, everything is laid down in this video so watch again i guess
My God man, you have just destroyed my mind. Wow this has to be one of the best discussions I've ever heard, like you made me view Zemo in a completely new light. Thanks so much for this lesson, I will never forget it.
The heroes in the current MCU are pretty tame. Wait until Ghost Rider and Silver Surfer are canon. They just do whatever the fuck they want. Human laws are totally beneath their notice.
Zemo also reminds me of Lex Luthor, especially from the TV series Smallville. Luthor was my favorite character in that show. It was hard to disagree with him as with Zemo. I never really understood Zemo's role in the Marvel Comics, but I think he is a great character in the MCU.
Love this video. Zemo is such a good character I'm so glad that a video like this is out here to show people that he's well written and has lots of depth to him. And have to say this but zemo is one of the best characters in the MCU. Better than people like kill monger because he was just a terrible crybaby character. Especially compared to zemo
Thanks for this video. Zemo and his crusade against super soldiers made that limited series truly exceptional. I would like to digress here: In the sequence showing Bucky being deprogrammed, he was shown as not responding to a TRANSLATION IN WAKANDAN of the trigger words, which is of course no indication that the English words wouldn't still trigger the Winter Soldier brainwashing.
What other villains were right?
Big fan of the theories thank you for your efforts
Killmonger
MaleKeith of course
Killmonger in Black Panther , because Wakanda took everything away from him and T’Chaka abandoned him along with a dead father and his father chose to left his son in order to serve in Wakanda
@@strangestudio3155 💯 he was
That scene where Zemo destroyed all the vials of super soldier serum, such a good and meaningful scene. He doesn't seek power himself, he remained true to his character. That's a really good character development.
This really did shore up his character perfectly.
TFATWS had great character development for Zemo, Bucky and John imo.
*vials
Also do like that he hesitated a little bit, even questioning Sam about it as a way to test his moral standards. Zemo despite being royalty is still very grounded, he’s not at all egotistical which is the main reason he’s being able to win the most out of all of the other villains
It’s not character development at all. Zemo’s character development in the show is when he doesn’t try to kill himself anymore.
When Sam said "He's out of line, but he's right" it perfectly summed up Zemo. 💯
Well Said Dom
I laughed so fucking hard at that scene
They were talking about marvin gaye...
@@calixtobrilliantes4435 I watched the entire series and I'm well aware that Sam was referring to Marvin Gaye at that moment. Zemo is out of line, but he's right.
@@DominickRuocco yep he's right.. I was just kidding around wellplayed dude
This is why I’ve always loved Marvel Comics… The world isn’t “Black & White” and they recognize the subtleties of “Right & Wrong”, “Good & Bad”, and “Pro & Con”…. Most of the heroes have their own darkness and the villains have their own light.
Totally agree
While DC fits in "Black and White" category, DC still has it Own way with 5 shades of Dark and light
Batman is light in the dark
Superman is Light in the Light
Red Hood is inbetween
Darkseid is darkness in the dark
Lex Luthor is darkness in the light
no one bad is ever truly bad and no one good is ever truly good
Morality is nothing but varying shades of grey.
@@Ojas97 and it's a Loki quote which was perfect for this moment
Aaaah, the short-sightedness of a neuro-typical ...
"There is colour between Black and White."
No, colour is nothing more than lies.
Yes, but ...
NO!!!!
YES:
you agree.
... but ...:
is the beginning of the lie to make things less wrong.
The "colouring of the truth".
It is that simple.
I've always liked Zemo mostly due to Daniel Brühl's brilliant performance and charisma (yes I've been crushing over him since Inglourious Basterds), but now he's kinda my favorite non-superhero MCU hero? those murky, ambiguous, grey characters who've lost so much and have seen the worst of humanity and yet just want justice, true justice, are the best type of characters.
You need to see the movie “Rush”. I think that’s his best performance. Made out to be the villian and you cheer for him. Amazing actor.
@@grimyentertainment238agreed this movie makes everyone a fan of him 😅 (also Thor is in it lol)
Did you see him in "Schule" as one of the students "Markus Baasweiler"?
I remember a young Daniel in "Goodbye Lenin", a very interesting movie. I never thought he would ever be part of Marvel, it was ideal
We need more Zemo. Whether he's fighting, killing or dancing.
Very compelling argument. The truth is, Zemo was right, but, the Avengers were also right. Like Obi Wan Kenobi said, "many of the truths we cling to, depend greatly on our own point of view".
I mean ultimately cap was right because when world destroying thanos showed up they all came together
@@jeffreytorres2539 well, that's from the Avengers perspective. Did you ever consider the fact that Thanos may have been right? I really believe that Thanos was, or at least he thought he was, the hero of "Infinity War". He really believed that what he did was for the "greater good", and he sacrificed EVERYTHING to get it. What Thanos did, did make some people's lives better. Namely, Karlie and the Flag Smashers. So, from their perspective, Thanos was a hero. It all depends on your point of view.
Bring those receipts! There's so much gray in the marvel universe. Tony Stark created a deadly artificial intelligence and he did not suffer any legal consequences because of it. You know what I think we should all just recognize that Tony Stark really is the big bad of the marvel universe.
@@kb420ps for people who don't have family everybody else shouldn't lose their family because you lost yours... I say this as someone who lost my favorite person in the world I was shattered and it was precisely before endgame which made that movie hurt. None of that justifies everybody else losing theirs their are infinite planets why can't we terraform one force their to be more inevitable space because honestly your going to keep running into Thanos' problem because population basically doubles every generation so it would only take 20 years to be right back at the same issue that Thanos had.. You would have to snap away 90 percent of the population but leave enough mix of different skills that they can still run their buildings
@@dbird2997 bro intention is very important now I agree he should be liable however to pentene that we didn't know he was making these to be able to respond to threats around the world to help people is ridiculous.
Zemo is definitely an Anti-villain, not an anti-hero
Oh, that's a good one.
Obviously.
I have never really thought of Zeno was a villain.
Best way to look at Zemo is, he is a Chaotic Neutral.
@@sawtooth808 No way, he’s fighting for the world to be orderly without super people on either side of the fight.
"when the Avengers created time travel technology the didn't consider asking the UN for approval" - this is actually a HUGE point. They bascially doubled the Earth's population in an instant causing chaos and potentially a global famine. Not to mention having the prospect of fighting Thanos and his army again to ensure victory. Let's also not forget the reprecussions of Hulk's snap will be carried over in the Eternals - what sort of global devastation will this lead to? Could you imagine living in this world as an every day citizen? Facing potential devastation and damage almost every 5 years, how could you plan for the future in a world so chaotic?
It's exactly reasons like this that I've been wanting some kind of story about what an insurance agency would look like in a world like the MCU.
@@GiantButterKnife That insurance company exists in the comics. They’re called “Damage Control.” The MCU version of them showed up at the beginning of Spiderman: Homecoming. IRL their premiums would have to be insane. Nobody could afford insurance against “random acts of superhuman/alien/magic/robotic destruction” and superheroes would spend the majority of their time rebuilding shit they helped destroy. OR much of the world would just constantly be sitting in obliterated ashes. Yes. Comics are stupid.
Not to mention that their going back in time lead to the events of Loki which ultimately unleashed the Multiverse.
The only threat The Avengers weren't directly responsible for was the 2012 battle of New York.
Everything else from Ultron on, they were responsible for creating.
When they’d collected the stones the next step should have been consulting governments. “We can bring everyone back, how are we going to do this?” There was no immediate need to rush to bring them back. Indeed if they’d waited, once thanks them arrived the snap could have bought people back and got rid of thanos
What happens if someone reappeared right where someone else was standing, or right in front of a moving vehicle
Can we agree that as a character Zemo is being treated extremely unfairly - at least in comparison. He had a traumatic experience when Ultron messed things up in Sokovia. His entire family was extinguished, his country basically destroyed. There was nobody he could turn to and nowhere he could go. He swore to avenge his family and... well, then he went about it. And he was good at it. Yes, he did some pretty messed up shit, but seriously, so did close to everyone who made any sort of difference. We've covered everything from murder to treason. But as soon as there's a desirable result, we simply forget about all of that. Because why hold a grudge, right? And then along comes a young woman who tricks a gangster boss, obtains physical power, creates a rebellion, starts to make things violent, effectively becomes a terrorist. At the same time the "evil mastermind" Zemo is trying to help keep things from escalating. Here's what happens.
Sam (to Karli, who just threatened his family): I agree with your fight.
Sam (to Zemo who saved his sorry ass twice the past two days): You're going back to prison.
Just... 😒 And not just any prison. Zemo goes to the Raft once he successfully helped finish the mission. Like... Wtf?!?!
I always hate karli morgentot
He would have had sympathy until he murdered innocent people.
He has completed it so he chose to go back.
I totally agree
Was Zemo effective? Yes. However, did he truly cared about the innocent he killed? The apology to black panther or that other guy, doesn't truly prove anything. He still involved and killed many innocent lives, and for what? Essentially only for _the end justyfys the means._ Great, so he acted exactly, like Stark and the others, making him only a hypocrit.
That clip of Mondo saying "The bill comes due, always" makes me think that he and Zemo (the 'two Barons') should team-up. They're both arguably the MCU's most sympathetic villains (even Killmonger, despite having an overall sympathetic agenda, showed little humility or self-reflection during his mission), because both of them are basically opposed to the abuse of power that characterises the franchise's 'heroes'.
Killmonger is a seesaw, flipping from oppressed to oppressor without question, without realization that he's only a continuation of the hate.
That's why what Black Panther did was fix what Killmonger tried to achieve, finding balance not by vengeance and power, but by financially supporting and providing opportunities to people who would have so little of them.
Great observation
Zemo is one of my favorite characters in the MCU and my fave villain. He's just so brilliant and always finds a way to basically WIN when you least expect him to. Daniel Bruhl was cast so perfectly for him. Can't go wrong when you hire the world's most talented actor to play your character.
He even won a dance competition, when there was no dance competition.
Check out those Baron Zemo moves!
Ok, “world’s most talented actor” might be going a bit too far lol. daniel bruhl is great though.
Is that you Daniel?
brilliantly lucky? Lucky that he is a scripted character or none of his "brilliant" plans would ever have worked cause they are born of stupid logic. Imagine blaming the firefighters for the fire.
@@The482075dancing with the stars MCU version. Zemo and Hela versus Star Lord and Gamora.
It's not that Zemo is right, it's that Zemo has a really, really good point. Two things that are very close but not exactly the same. Also, I like that he's the only villain that arguably won against the Avengers. He wanted to mess them up internally and boy howdy, he sure did that.
Also 2018 Thanos won as well and got to watch the sun rise on a "grateful universe"
your good point shows that you don't need super people to stop other super people. a brilliant strategist can bring stronger individuals to their knees. that is assuming there is a flaw to exploit, which there usually is. a similar thing happens in marvel's "what if" animated series. T'challa somehow is also star lord. he convinces Thanos that there is a way to create enough resources for everyone so that everyone doesn't have to be killed for there to be enough resources.
true, but zemo divided and weakened them first.
I really appreciated you pointing out that having a good point is not the same as being right. One of the greatest difficulties the human race faces is failing to make such distinctions.
@@infinitepossibilities-anyt1488 And? In a real fight you do everything to win. If you aren't strong you have to be smart.
*Zemo:* "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask with ridges"
For their pleasure
Tony: That’s below their pay grade
Sam: What pay?
Scott: you guys are getting paid?
Falcon and the winter may not be on a cosmic fighting level compared to wandavision and loki but the writing the message it conveys hits closer, plus zemo is awesome, hope to see more of him someday in mcu
i feel like ppl dont like it bc its too real, the themes withing r currently occuring around the world
@@emk2214 The Falcon and the Winter Soldier is my favorite post End Game series. The secret that Bucky hid from even Steve Rogers after he told Wilson that a black super soldier existed before Steve Rogers became Captain America and how he was treated paints a most likely real picture of things despite the series being a story of fiction.
You guys gotta do better
The only thing I disliked was how mischaracterised Sam was. John Walker was unfortunately accidentally the most heroic and just character in the show.
Also, a conversation between Zemo and Thanos about their views and "solutions" would be interesting. I wonder if they would agree on some things
They might agree on some things as long as T'Challa gets to mediate.
@@justakenyan1372 sounds like it could be a dope stark trek next gen ep
O
I don't think they would agree. Thanos is the ultimate problem in Zemo's POV. He his almost a god, megalomaniac and doesn't give a shit about everyone else except Gamora.
@ no love for Nebula lol
Am I the only one who would love to see a Zemo series on Disney+? I wouldn’t even mind if he killed off some comic supersoldier like Warhawk. Kinda just want to see more of Daniel Brühl tbh. What an actor.
I would LOVE that, too. Daniel Bruhl is the world's best actor, and he needs more good roles.
Saw Daniel brühl on the Jason Bourne movies for the first time, never relised he would end up such a good actor❤️
@Dominic Hamer man david straham aint no patrick stewart but i agree daniel b is a top tier actor
You are not
I agree we need more zemo
Villains like Zemo and Thanos are the best kind of villains because they are so overwhelmingly right that you can’t really argue their point, just their methods. That kind of dissonance is perversely satisfying.
Killmonger also had really good points :)
There is nothing right about thanos plan. It is stupid.
@@showmeyourmoves8551 yeah he was stoopid, he xould have just doubled the amount of resources
@@capcorn7872 You can’t change the laws of physics. A planet is only so large. Adding more planets throws everything out of whack. It’s like sculpting. You can easily remove material than add it. Again, you can argue Thanos’ methods, but he remains a sympathetic character who lost a lot to get to where he was.
@@woodcider there is a stone called reality stone so how does changing physics too much farfetched? Thanos is not symphatetic at all. His backstory is his planet died is not personal at all since we dont see his family dying like at all.
I always thought it was weird that the Avengers weren’t given the opportunity to modify or negotiate the Sokovia accords. This is what happens in most treaties, business agreements etc. They were just told to sign. Certain provisions could have provided enough restriction for accountability and enough independence for efficiency.
I always felt the fact that they were told just to agree to the accords was in itself a test of their willingness to accept such an accord to begin with. Imagine having to negoiate a treaty with superbeings who could wipe the floor with you into submission to a contract. They are by default in a superior position.
That’s my thought for the Geneva convention and the UN. It’s bunch of political crap that knowing every country party would be a nightmare to understand. Is like have a democratic or republican explain there vision to worker’s party of Brazil and the labor party in Britain. So much political drama no wonder we are about to butt heads in Ukrainian war.
I sympathized why Tony Stark had a change of heart despite being directly responsible for a lot of stuff in the MCU. But I couldn't blame Steve Rogers not signing those accords. Of course, those accords were about 1500 plus convoluted pages of gibberish. And like today's modern government amendments, people are asked to vote yes or sign such accords and proposed laws. To sort of trust the wordings. Even good lawyers would have challenges navigating through all that.
I always had a problem with general Ross lecturing the Avengers. In Incredible Hulk, he gave Blonski the super soldier serum who later became the Abomination. He also confronted Banner on a college campus triggering his transformation without any regard for the civilians present. He called in a gunship for god's sake. Or how about chasing Abomination through Harlem firing a 50 cal through a densely populated city. I'm sure no one died while he blasted away into those apartments while chasing Abomination. Or how about the fact that the world council authorized nuking New York city in the first Avengers movie? The Avengers were never on their own. They worked for Shield. Two shield agents (Widow and Hawkeye) were on the team.
Zemo is an excellent character played by an amazing actor. I hope MCU shows more of him in the future.
This just adds to the reality that is mirrored in Greek tragedy. Heroes and gods had a similar relationship to the citizens of Greece especially when it comes to how they adapted them to the theater.
"The king must die" (part of the circular story of Thucydides)
I think Captain America's stance in Civil War is mainly built on the back of Hydra/Shield in Winter Soldier.
Which ties into the argument between Supervision (to possibly create new agendas for the governments of the world, that benefit them and not the heros, giving them the greatest advantage in the world) v. Not Supervision (the opportunity for several superhuman and vigilantes making decisions and committing calateral damage that negative impacts "the little people.") He had briefly discuss this in earlier in the video.
@@SpFlash1523 Super Vision, huh 😂
@@SpFlash1523 i mean to be fair, what about the governments themselves, who are also technically unsupervised yet can still make catastrophic decisions that hurt many people in the long run anyway? When were the people who were hurt by these decisions ever asked about them?
I’m surprised no one even brought up the fact that the Flag Smashers were also standing up for people who were thrown to the side and had to steal food that the government was harboring for no supposedly good reason other than “you don’t understand how complex this is.” FUCKING EXPLAIN IT, IS IT THAT HARD???
If there is one thing F&WS did right it was painting the villains and even the heroes grayer than just black and white. Granted Zemo was right about some things, he was also wrong about others - he also bombed the U.N. and killed plenty of people working for government organizations; he works with criminal organizations that are also without government supervision yet function on the scale of an entire nation; he’s rich as hell while people like the flag smashers were helping people who had nothing.
I don’t buy this whole “he’s right!” because the reality is there was no one who was wholly correct - everyone in the show has their own agendas that may have good and noble means to it, yet it’s twisted in a way that justifies their actions. The Flag Smashers want to help people and believe violence and murder are the only solution to the problem. Zemo believes super humans are supremacists and need to be stopped, while also taking will into his own hands and committing the same atrocities he’s supposedly trying to make a point against. Walker is one of the exact extremes that Zemo worried about, yet again the people in charge that supposedly know better in this situation, still just gave him a “slap on the wrist.” Flawed arguments swayed by reasonable but deceptive logic.
@@averyjenson thank you!!! I think I was the only one who watched the flag smasher more than just terrorist, the goverment give them homes, jobs, and oportunities to be better outside their poor countries
But as soon as the blip they were kickout without an explanation even tho they were the ones who keep their economy stable for 5 years, of course they'll be angry and no one wants to listen to them. Obviously killing some senators was not the right move, but the rest of their crimes I can understand it.
Stealing food for refugees and inmigrants it's a really sad situation maybe because I'm from latin america and much of the time "riots that ended up in fire" it's the only way to be heard just in 2019 seven of 13 countries in latin america were in protest fights and a lot of fire for the injustice
@@averyjenson lol the flag smashers were dumb as bricks, they shouldn't need an explanation and neither should you. its so simple even my little sister understood it and she is 12. that food was for other people, there are only so much resources and (more importantly) the infrastructure to move and store it. people had to work to make it too and need compensation. you can't just take what you want or move where you want to move to, because that affects other people and doing so literally makes you a marauding brigand, a barbarian who goes around pillaging because they feel entitled to it. like vikings, huns and pirates. literally worse than imperialists, at least they build infrastructure (and other minor compensation) when they leach off other people.
it wasn't food hoarded for no apparent reason, we are explicitly told it was stuff for helping the blippers who returned to a world where they no longer had jobs or houseing. ie refugees making up almost half the planet's population (or atleast the vast majority that would have been unable to re-inter society in the short period of time since their return, it takes a while for economies to adjust to such large population changes). they were stealing from the poor and disenfranchised who did nothing wrong, all because they felt entitled as they had been given some property that they didn't earn themselves 5 years ago.
the flag smashers were representing the people who directly benefitted from the deaths of billions of people and now don't want to give up their privileged lifestyle now that it is not sustainable. to the point they actively and violently steal from refugees and the systems helping them. they weren't helping people who had nothing, they were helping people who had to give back their borrowed wealth and didn't like it.
hell they wanted things to go back to the way things were when there was only half the population on the planet, sorry but thats just extremely dumb (or extremely selfish/evil as anyone with a brain would realize the implication is to kill off the blippers/half the population, especially since the flag smashers are using violent means).
simply put the flag smashers deserved to be treated far worse by the show than they actually were. they should have been treated like hydra or thanos (evil people who try and justify, mostly for the sake of their own conscious, evil selfish acts) and the fact you seem to empathize with them is worrying.
17:19 something I hadn't realized, Tony was still justifying ultron in endgame. A threat that we now know capable of eradicating all life in the multiverse. Marvel really are good at writing flawed characters. Tony was a genius, as can be seen in his suits and combat, but he was still as blind as everyone else.
Not to mention that he blamed Cap because he wanted a suit of armor around the world. Wasn’t that what Vision was supposed to basically be as his replacement for the mistakes of Ultron? He got his Vision so how was Cap a liar. Every time I watch that movie I’m yelling at the tv “he was their fighting just like u. It wasn’t his fault u hopped on a flying donut or that u managed to sign him into being a fugitive/criminal.”
@@occheermommy they really did create a dumb genius with tony stark
@@occheermommy I think the liar bit was about Cap covering up Bucky's involvement in the murder of Tony's parents, but I guess it could have been something else. At the very least, it was a lie by omission.
Zemo is absolutely right, at least on the merits if not on the means. I hope Disney is able to keep exploring that argument and confronting the various heroes with it; it’d be fascinating to see a Zemo-inspired team facing off against, say, a Thunderbolts or Dark Avengers.
There is one other aspect that none of the movies have touched on yet, and that is the issue of hero-worship. Most of the Avengers did not ask to be born with powers, they did not seek it out. It was thrust upon them. Thor was born a god. Captain America did seek to become a super soldier; but to keep people safe not because he wanted power. Black Widow was kidnapped and brainwashed into being an assassin. Vision was created he didn't seek anything. The Hulk became the Hulk via an accident. Hero worship is one thing that's never been dealt with. People putting the heroes on a pedestal and then expecting them to be infallible. At the end of the day they're still human beings. Most of them never asked to be put in that position, yet people seek to blame them when things happen, while they hold them to impossible standards. Yes things like Ultron where the Avengers' fault (well Tony really). But things like Hydra infiltrating SHIELD were not. I am willing to bet that Hydra has caused much more damage, destruction, and death than The Avengers have.
Both Iron Man 2 and Iron Man 3 dealt with Hero Worship. In IM2, it is specifically about tearing down Tony as the ultimate hero, not just by Ivan Drago, but also Hammer, the U.S. Government and more, while everyone else loved him. He had incredible leeway in anything and everything he wanted to do. In IM3, you meet several characters - including the villain - who are the way they are either because they worship Tony as their hero, or prop him up as their ultimate obstacle - their villain. All the while, imposing a vulnerability - a flaw - in the hero with his PTSD from the Battle of New York.
Captain America and the Winter Soldier and Captain America: Civil War, both also deal with Hero Worship but in a different way. Instead of it being about a Hero that can do anything, it is about a Hero that can inspire anyone. Steve inspires Shield Loyalists to fight off Hydra sleeper agents, even though many of them were friends and colleagues for years. Meanwhile in Civil War, he inspired a team of renegades, to sacrifice themselves so that he could get away and stop the villain - even when he himself didn't like the idea. He even inspires Tony in the end, who, while he clearly hasn't forgiven Steve, he does at least respect him, enough to brush off Secretary Ross when Steve busts the renegade Avengers out (a similar reaction that Adrian The Vulture has with Peter Spider-man).
If Iron Man teaches us the dangers of Hero Worship, Captain America teaches us why we do it anyway.
@@felixfeliciano7011 all of these people that you mentioned are people who were in the same industry circles with the Avengers or had working relationships with them. I'm talking about the general public like Zemo's family or just your average everyday person. The only person I can recall that was your average everyday person was Harley Keener. But he was a child. None of the movies have addressed how hero-worship can make it impossible for the team to function because it would be impossible for them to never have any consequences to their actions. It's that concept of "you can't please all the people all the time" that I'm referring to.
@@micah06v8 I would agree with that. In the first avengers movie you have the government guy saying it was their mess when it was the government that got them into it. In civil war you have Ross saying all of these
Events were their fault when conceivably the only one truly their fault was Ultron. Yes they may have been In Lagos without government approval but had they let that virus go how many millions would it have killed. Yes they needed some accountability but many times they were cleaning up other peoples messes. Idt the sokovia accords were the answer but I don’t think letting them run wild or blaming them for things they weren’t responsible for was the answer either. It’s like when people blamed soldiers for problems the government made. There is only so much they can do
Zemo is the hero that the MCU needs but not the hero the MCU deserves.
"Who are you?"
"I am...Zemo."
@@lordodysseus Why? "BECAUSE I'M ZEMO!"
@@thomasbennett0 zemo was right. why? BECAUSE IM BATMAN
So is Thanos in infinity war
Zemo is a great character even one my favourite in the MCU , he is some a antihero
I always thought Zemo was an interesting villain.
The deleted alternate scene of him getting the winter soldier book shows of why I like him
Also he’s a villain that doesn’t have a huge ego which is the primary reason he’s one of the few villains with a winning streak
I thing you missed something important in Sam Wilson's speech to the senator : he did gave them a solution to be better by asking them to invite the people who will be affected by their decisions. It's for me the central point of his argument : "Who is in the room when you're making those decisions? Is it the people you're gonna impact, or is it just more people like you?", the next line is a call to listen to the reason why Karli Morgenthau did what she did, and to listen to the people concerned. I know it's relevant in the series in a broad call for the respect of the lives of minorities, but it's still a good advice from Captain America to the leaders of the world (and I wish we have this kind of impulse in our reality/timeline too).
(And also, he doesn't only say "you have to do better", he also says "we have to do better", including him, probably echoing the warning from Zemo in his mind).
Exactly. I’m saddened that Screenscrush would be so unfairly reductive to Sams speech…
Exactly
100% agreed. "Who's in the room with you when you're making these decisions, is it more people like you or is it the people who are gonna be affected?" was pretty solid. I loved that part.
@@iamgroot2810 if Governments and Institutions kept that principle in mind this world would be a better place almost over night.....
That's not a solution
Quite the opposite
The thing is the older I get the more I can relate to the villains in a movie. I do not agree with their methods but I 100 percent see where they are coming from and agree with their judgment.
I once read this post of someone saying:
"You know you are an adult once the Joker makes more sense than Batman."
That comment stuck with me.
I loved him so much in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, he was my second favourite villain in the mcu (if you count Loki as a villain)
I couldn’t agree more. I said the exact same thing. Both are my favorite Marvel characters. Both are incredibly complex characters and are not 2 dimensional.
Agree!
I concur.. also, depends on who you call a "villain".. everyone is the villain from the other's point of view.
@@ahs3129Exactly! I couldn't have said any better than you just did!
Did Loki want to rule the world and he killed a bunch of innocent people? Yup, he's a villain...
This whole video just explained the whole mutant rights set up for the X-Men storyline.
I really hope the MCU doesn't go that direction when they eventually introduce mutants. The allegory of mutants with unpredictable (at times uncontrollable) powers standing in for oppressed minorities just doesn't hold up that well under any amount of scrutiny.
It's going to be tricky to introduce a whole new breed of beings (mutants) in a world where superheroes are seen as celebrities.
He is right in some things but also does awful things. He is an amazing and complex villain.
Yay! Finally, someone really understand Zemo. He’s my most favorite character in the MCU.
I wish Zemo would have had more time with Tony and more specifically Steve. I think conversations between them would have resonated more in the two heroes and influenced their choices more. Knowing Zemo was always a Cap villain it kind of seemed dumb to me that the only time they encountered each other in the whole series was when Zemo was behind a blast door and made them watch a security tape, then immediately tried to leave and got a moment with T'Challa while Cap and Tony were fighting. The MCU fails to remember time and time again that Steve in this portrayal is built on a lot of strong stances on freedom and should have had some time to actually match wits with the harsh realities that Zemo was presenting.
This is one of the limitations of live action movies. The hero only meets their villain for a few brief moments and then we'll never see them meet again.
You’re videos always bring a fresh philosophical meaning to the content you want to discuss. This one by far has been the best.
Thank you for bringing up the events of Endgame! I understand ya know NOT telling the government(s) of the world about a time travel device to avoid the WRONG people getting their hands on it. However, before bringing everyone back via Hulk's snap; I always thought ya know they'd inform some one of importance or at least warn the world;
"Hey, we're about to bring back the missing population so brace yourself..."
exactly because when you watch spiderman far from home, wandavision and falcon and the winter solder, thats when you realise it was pure chaos.....especially the hospital scene in wandavision
Also playing with time is always dangerous, Thanos coming and potentially killing everyone was surprisingly the least bad part of their plan
The worst part was the events that lead to Kangs release. Granted no one could have seen that coming, but still nothing good comes from playing with time.
What if… kind of showed what new dangers have been released now that the multiverse has been opened.
My sister said well at least we have multiple universes in the chance one’s destroyed true until you get someone like Kang or spider-verse’s kingpin. People who can travel in between universes. Then one universe’s problem becomes the problem of many universes
First, they didn't know it would work. It was an attempt.
Second, what did you expect that info to do? For the population to stand around and wait for the snapped to come back?
Blatant disregard for unintended consequences is pretty much a tentpole of the MCU.
Hi can someone pls tell me why th iron man snapped when hlk Alr snaped
The bit of The Other Guys with Jackson had me cracking the fuck up lol
I love that movie. Super underrated.
Zemo was definitely right I love zemo, he’s my favorite villain and deserves more recognition.
"Zemo hates superhumans"
He's gonna love Senator Kelly.
OH MAN, Zemo vs Magneto.
I deeply respect Martin Scorsese and his contribution to cinema, but themes like these in superhero movies show how his comment, and those who agreed, were full of resentment and impotence. Accountability is a top tier subject.
Scorsese said the MCU wasn’t cinema, and you respond by praising the storytelling that’s happening on TV 🤣
@@spewter I think enough examples of Cinema were quoted and what goes on TV by Marvel is obviously an extension of the first one.
@@spewter you sound like you were just born yesterday.
The Infinity Saga was a 23 episode story, which is the same number of parts as a US network TV show.
Scorsese wasn’t being pretentious. He raised a legit question about the nature of cinema and how the MCU belongs to, and differs from, that.
Fan boys, however, aren’t interested in the study of film as an art form and in their ignorance they take Scorsese’s remarks as an insult.
This video wasn’t even about Scorsese and yet here we are 🤣
Totally agree. Scorsese is one of my favorites, Taxi Driver & Good Fellas are on my Top 10 movies of all time list. But a blanket statement like "superhero movies are ruining cinema" came off like a jealous, shallow comment from a cranky old man.
In a way Zemo is one of the greatest Avengers.
*Revengers
Videos like this makes me appreciate the MCU even more.
I generally love Marvel movies but I like them even more when they take their movies or tv shows in more political way that's why I love captain America the winter Soldier, captain America civil war and Falcon and the winter Soldier
Zemo's brilliant speech reminds me of how we treat celebrities, and even politicians, on social media: "we put them on pedastals...and then we start to forget about their flaws..."
It all seems to boil down to hubris: the Avengers' attitude that theirs are the best hands to leave major decisions in, Stark's arrogance and ego that led to him making so many mistakes, Parker's belief in his own ability to handle difficult adult situations, Strange's nigh-unshakeable belief in his own judgment regarding dimension-shaking events, and so much more. Every single thing mentioned is a form of hubris, which is the foundation of every Greek tragedy written.
Zemo has a level of clarity regarding hubris that is almost a super-power, in its own right. He has the equivalent of an aerial view of these moral and ethical situations, which grants him such amazing insight. Unfortunately, Zemo is wired like a vigilante without a code against killing: he uses others and kills those he sees as being part of the problem in order to reach his ultimate goals. That leaves him with the appearance of a pure villain to those who know nothing of his motivations, or the truth of his knowledge.
Given enough time, I have no doubt Zemo could find a way to bring the supers to heel, and prevent them from causing any more devastation, though the cost would be bloody.
As to whether or not he's a hero, future people might view him as one, if they had the full story and Zemo managed to achieve his goals.
Great post. This seems to underline the paradox beyond the movies about how humans are inherently imperfect, thus the heroes will always have their flaws and cannot be expected to be right all the time. The idea can be applied to other "good guys" in our society.
I always said Civil War was a metaphor for our government. Neither SIDE is right...parts of what they say are but instead of compromising they end up further apart.
Zemo is amazing. The genius of his character and view of the world and superpowered individuals. Not just a brute force bad guy, but the one who will come out on top before you realize he’s won.
Strong argument; problem is I'm too busy dancing with Zemo to argue!
great video..as non comic book fan, these video puts so many things in perspective past, present and future events that are yet to happen in MC universe
One of the best video essays I've seen. The MCU isn't just a bunch of explodey super hero films, it's a real lesson for the real world.
"Avengers went back into time on their own accord without understanding the risks or consequences. While it worked out pretty well..."
Kang: "Oh yes, it worked out perfectly, Thanks Avengers!"
Zemo was right. I understand his point of view and I am not sure based on facts how much he is a villain. He seems to be a Hero based on the given information.
Zemo reminds me of Lex Luthor in the sense that he believes in if God protects man then who protects us from a God who gets too powerful. Then enter injustice in which Luthor made his point.
I don't know why this didn't cross my feet until today, but I think you're absolutely right. And so was Zemo. You did a really good job of making this point. I hope a lot of people, especially those under 20, listen to it and really think about it.
Wow, I love that a simple "Good guys vs bad guys" comic can have so much philosophical depth. Great analysis!
Hmm there seems to be a constant in all the cases where Zemo was right : just one case for Wanda followed by EIGHT cases for Tony
There's a theory going around that Tony didn't HAVE to die in Endgame....but Dr Strange deliberately set him up to sacrifice himself because he determined Tony was just too dangerous to be left alone.
Commander Riker looks so happy with himself! Hey, hey, I know this one.
Which Season/Episode, Cap?
I'd say it's a bit unfair to say the Avengers are complicit in the creation of Ultron. The only one who seemed to have any knowledge that Ultron was being created by Tony was Banner, who assisted in the creation. The rest were kept in the dark.
I love the comparison to The Boys. Before you referenced that show, I was thinking Zemo would make a good addition to Billy Butcher's team.
He's basically a more successful Billy Butcher, if you think about it.
@@ShadowSonic2 Shit, you're right. Especially after Season 3, Zemo would be a "good"/"healthy" version of Butcher.
A very valid argument. I love the way the Disney Plus shows have brought to light the "Grey" zone of morality in MCU and the fact that life isn't just "Good and Evil"
This is why Zemo and Killmonger are my favourite villains
Would've loved to see then two work together somehow
One catch Killmonger is a supremacist. He wanted the herb and the power of Wakanda to do what he needs. And he is more villian than an anti-hero because he betrays and kills his own allies.(more evident in his what if episode)Zemo is trustworthy ally he may be annoying but he never betrayed sam and bucky. He helped them to a great extent.
@@batmanthecapedcrusader3916 He did it all to help oppressed black people around the world his methods were horrible but he was doing it for a good reason he did the wrong things for the right reasons
@@ThatGuyEclipz330 I would love to see zemo and killmonger work together but I don't think that would be possible because their motivations and goals are different , killmonger's motivations are related to racism that to zemo's motivation are related to what are the threats of superheroes in our real world , but I gotta admit they are my favorite villans including Thanos in the MCU
@@Talve Oh please,take away the shield that is the color of his skin and killmonger would just be another racist.
CONTENT that makes this channel stand out among other MCU breakdown channels ❤️. What a compelling argument 👍🏾
Zemo is a gem, and he is absolutely right
The 7th stone the truth stone
Zemo is one of those characters who has to do villainous things to achieve his goals, because If he didnt, he would just be another hero.
I love the questions and the well thought out arguments Ryan presents. This is so fascinating and so heartbreaking at the same time because there is no easy fix to this problem. You come up with a plan, chances are, it won't be the best one and millions or billions will be hurt by that fact. There's just too many variables to say what is right.
10:54 Those terrorists already fought them with the intent to kill, not to mention he saw his best friend get killed moments before this scene. I wouldn´t really call it "in cold blood"
i still don't understand how is he a villian in this show, to be honest, am i the only one who is rooting thoughout the series.
"In Cold Blood: without feeling or mercy; ruthlessly."
So long as he was unarmed, it was in cold blood
@@nakachinjah7240 He isn't the villain, even the director of the show after seeing all the hate against him said you all will end up loving him by the end of the show. He's a morally grey character, just like Bucky and Zemo.
"(Darkness)
(When it grows light again, the bell is still booming, then it stops.
Virginia has left. Galileo's pupils are still there)
ANDREA (loudly) Unhappy the land that has no heroes!
(Galileo has come in, completely, almost unrecognizably, changed by the trial. He has
heard Andrea's exclamation. For a few moments he hesitates at the door, expecting a
greeting. As none is forthcoming and his pupils shrink back from him, he goes slowly and
because of his bad eyesight uncertainly to the front where he finds a footstool and sits
down)
ANDREA I can't look at him. I wish he'd go away.
SAGREDO Calm yourself.
ANDREA (screams at Galileo) Wine barrel! Snail eater! Have you saved your
precious skin? (Sits down) I feel sick.
GALILEO (calmly) Get him a glass of water.
(The little monk goes out to get Andrea a glass of water. The others pay no attention to
Galileo who sits on his footstool, listening. From far off the announcer's voice is heard
again)
ANDREA I can walk now if you'll help me.
(They lead him to the door. When they reach it, Galileo begins to speak)
GALILEO No. Unhappy the land that needs a hero."
The Life of Galileo, Bertolt Brecht, scene 13
This video does bring up some interesting things about the current structure of how superhero stories are told. Even in the MCU. I think going forward it would be a good idea to start to have the heroes interact with the people more to show that they do care and that ultimately their intent is to protect them and make things better. It’s not enough to only respond to threats you’ve caused or extra terrestrial.
This was a thoughtful analysis, and I appreciate it. The Accords have more issues than just possible deadlock but unfortunately they are clearly outlined in the film. You have to read it on the Wiki and probably the only people who wondered what was in them are people who were familiar with the problems in the Superhuman Registration Act in the comics. That doesn't mean that oversight is not needed, however - only that the Accords themselves were flawed legislation.
Zemo is one of the more fascinating characters in the MCU right now and I hope we see more of him. I think the question is complex and sometimes it is overshadowed by some really bad arguments made by some of the characters, or the way it is presented. In my opinion some of the best fiction is created when the narrative is dealing with these kinds of conflicts. I understand why CA: Civil War veered off to deal with the issue of Bucky - who is the one character I do not hold responsible for most of the bad on his place since he was literally mind controlled at the time, but it took away from the ability of the film to confront to core question it posed. I had hoped we'd see it come up again in a more satisfactory way, but we ran into Infinity War and ultimately I do get not waiting around to hash out the issue while Thanos was trying to kill half of all life in the universe.
Wanda, while one of my favorite characters right now, is a case in point for why there should be oversight. What happened in Nigeria was not actually her fault despite the way it was portrayed, and I understand that at first in Westview she didn't know what she'd done but eventually she did and she didn't shut it down immediately. There should be consequences for this. They should take into account all factors but there should still be consequences. However, it's virtually impossible to do anything about it unless Wanda consents to arrest and trial, something we all know she isn't going to do. And that's a problem.
I wonder if the Thunderbolts or the Dark Avengers are going to be put forward as a model of a "superhero" team that is operating under oversight. I know it'll be corrupt, that's clear from Val's presence and the likelihood of Ross stepping up to the fore as Red Hulk, but it could still be a demonstration of how something like that might work. Maybe there is still hope that Marvel will come at this question again in a more thoughtful way. I guess we'll see.
Just a quick nitpick: SWORD was working on White Vision before Wanda took Westview hostage. They weren't able to bring him online without a sample of Wanda's power (because it was the same as the energy from the Mind Stone). It just happens that they first deployed White Vision against Wanda.
Awesome video! This is why I hope we see a lot more of Baron Zemo!
"With great power comes great responsibility." This video does a fantastic job exploring how true that statement is.
How true that statement is made to be.*
Zemo circa Civil War is just a man overwhelmed by his vengeance. It's only in Falcon and the Winter Soldier that they make him an interesting, carefully crafted character that is presented in this video
This video is actually quite hypocritical in itself. For example, if Karli is 'just a terrorist' then Zemo is exactly the same. He too, is far gone in his own extreme views; just like Karli, killing everyone he views as a supremacist. The argument being presented that he isn't a terrorist because he "genuinely regrets the atrocious things he had to do" is also quite deaf. I don't think Karli was joyous in here crimes, I think she genuinely wanted to make things better - exactly how Zemo is. Arguing Zemo is somehow the hero is just sensationalist nonsense.
And lets not forget that very moment in the video where the crux of the argument lies on the foundation that 'everyone with ultimate power and no supervision will ultimately be corrupted,' and immediately at 10:45 Zemo admits Steve wasn't corrupted. Basically proving that as Steve was told in The First Avenger, "the serum amplifies everything that's inside" --- it isn't the infinite power that corrupts, the power only amplifies the corruption already within so many.
Hit the nail right on the head
If we ignore some of their flaws, all the three MCU Disney Plus shows were *really good* in some aspects, way better than half the MCU movies out there.
You emphasize with Zemo, even if you don't totally agree with him. Some other points: Captain America might have agreed with the Sokovia Accords years earlier, but the events of Captain America: The Winter Soldier (finding out Hydra was rebuilding within SHIELD for decades and was planning to eliminate tens of millions of people once they got total control) caused him to not trust large organizations or governments again. Tony Stark got scared straight for a while after Ultron backfired so badly and nearly destroyed the world - that's why he was for the accords, because (though he wouldn't admit it) he wanted someone else in charge of him, finally. Tony also has a recurring problem of creating villains by his actions (Aldrich Killian, Adrian Toomes and others) and finding out repeatedly he's the villain in his story, not the hero. When he became Iron Man, he found Stark Industries wasn't making the world safer and they were double dealing under the table for the sake of profits. Then creating Ultron to fill the gap left by SHIELD ends up nearly destroying the world. Finally, his efforts to 'save' the Avengers through the Sokovia Accords just works to keep them fragmented and apart rather than together, as he creates a wedge of mistrust between himself and Cap that lasts for years. It's only by the end of Avengers: Endgame that Tony is finally the hero he wanted to be.
This is something that came out with my friends after watching "Return of the Dark Knight" and realising Batman is a psycopath with combat trainig and resources.
Every hero who is independant is by definition, a vigilante, thus is a criminal at the eyes of the law.
The only way you could have heroes working in a "safe" way is if they are institutionalized, becoming gubernamental employees.
Of course in a realistic setting, this would lead to things like The Boys or Watchemn, where the "heroes" have no sense of responsabolity of their actions, or are simply black OPS for the military.
If you look at "My Hero Academia", Hero is an actuall profession, and there are schools for heroes, where they are taught to use their powers but also to be a public servant, first aid, crowd control and other safety rules to minimize the danger to others while they protect the people.
In the real world, this would be no different to a career like police agent, firefighters or paramedic.
Depends on how many people get powers. If there are only a handful of heroes, there'd be no way to make a career out of it. Whether or not they'd subject themselves to the law (from whatever country they come from) is also arguable, and depends on the person and how much power they have.
I have made the argument from the day I saw Civil War: Zemo is the greatest villain of the MCU, with no competition... not even Thanos.
Legit I cannot wait for Zemo to join the Thunderbolts team in the MCU 💯💯💯💯💯💯👏👏👏👏👏👏
Its probably gonna happen but I wonder if a guy who dislikes super humans would join a team of super humans? And what is Zemo's specialty gonna be on that team, if he's not leading it? Because it seems lie Val is.
@@user-hf2dr7sh4y then we get avengers and mutants all mixed up in teams all over the world to protect the peace. West coast avengers has a mutant in it like Wolverine while X-Caliber has a non mutant superhero in it like Captain Britain, etc... and Hulk goes insane and takes over CA and Ross sends wolverine to hunt him down.
@@user-hf2dr7sh4y Yup, start clearing dead money and move forward with new actors for young avengers and then bring in the big old stars for some greatest hits of all time CGI de aged avengers on veteran scale salaries. The time cop avengers that fight all of kangs bullshit can help with that. Faster they burn through it the faster they can reboot in 2037.
This was a 20 minute master class. So well put together. Thank you.
I love your video essays. This is one of your best. It is absolutely brilliant.
I normally find myself with villians in movies, stories, and TV especially, villians with integrity like Zemo. A great villian points out hero's flaws and short coming.
This video hits different after watching the Killmonger What If episode.
Ultron said it best: You[Avengers or heroes] want to save the world but, you don't want it to change.
I want Zemo, Loki and Peter to team up, they really seem like the big 3 rn
So many new pop culture philosophies have explored the "one last time" mentality that heroes should have. The MCU analogy would be Cap leaving the battle at the end of Endgame, like Washington retiring in Hamilton.
Zemo, so when we finally get the THUNERBOLTS we will have had plenty of seeds planted (Yelena and Walker) to the creation of that "balancing" force (just remembered White Vision) with more opportunities for complex story telling based on characters acting in archetypal roles. MCU rules !!!!
Great video. You may have already done this in the past, but if you have not, to do a video exploring how many of the villains or problems in the MCU were directly related to Tony Stark's bad decisions
Excellent argumentation. This is the problem with an ongoing superhero universe. Sooner or later the power fantasy of the vigilante is going to lead to nasty consequences you have to answer. I'm hoping that the MCU has a plan to tackle these issues because the ending of Wandavision left me truly shaken for days (the woman begging to have her daughter added to the plot so she can leave her room was crushing). There has to be a reset of some kind at some point otherwise the psychopathic behavior of the heroes is gonna get dark.
Zemo Such a good villian🔥
He's not even a villain. He's like an anti-hero
@@austinhernandez2716 he's the most competent and adequate anti-hero everybody treats as a villain (well, he assassinated T'chaka but whatever)
@@austinhernandez2716 or we can say he is a antivillan , for antivillan is more appropriate to zemo
@@austinhernandez2716 How is murdering innocent people for your own goals not villainous.
@@kikosawa He murdered at least thirteen innocent people in Civil War
Ironically, I ended up appreciating and respecting Zemo. Then I realized how much I relate with the villains the older I get. 🤣🤣🤣
That's how you write good villains and sadly Marvel kinda fucks up villains most of the time.
@@B20C0 For every Zemo they always have a Malekith lying around.
My issue with the Sokovia Accords is, somewhat ironically, the same issues Zemo has with the Avengers; I don't like it when a bunch of people I don't know, and will never meet, convene to make decisions on my behalf which I am then forced to deal with the consequences of, and if I protest then I'm the bad guy for doing so. Because "they're the good guys", and anyone who disagrees with the "good guys" is obviously a "bad guy".
So cool how you appreciate and bring to light the deeper & more complex themes of the Marvel cinematic universe.
The topic in this video, ah we can talk about it for hours. Good content Ryan. Sums up the fact that he was completely outta line but he had some great points. Just giving a heroic speech is not enough. The heroes should help with how resources should be allocated if they do not trust the system, they should be the system and then find out bending bureaucracy is tougher than fighting supervillains
Zemo definitely had a point. Tony Stark had basically become a villain. He made a sentient AI that ended up killing thousands and almost killed billions. After he made the killer AI, he went and made ANOTHER, even more advanced, more powerful robot.
He ultimately wanted to take away everyone's freedoms for his "suit of armor around the world" as well. At the beginning of Endgame he even said that our "precious freedom" wasn't worth it.
However, Zemo *was* evil. He let hate and revenge consume him. He murdered multiple people in cold blood. He had become a sociopath.
We need more Steve Rogers and T'Challas in this world. Men who would lay down their lives for humanity without enforcing their own way on others.
Zemo is an indirect product of the Avengers. He would have never been a bad guy if it wasn’t for the “good guys” destroying his town/people. The Avengers avenged (taking revenge for an offense) the people who Loki killed & his attempt to take over earth in the first movie. In the second one they try to fix their own mistakes. Kinda ironic because this leads to Civil War in which Zemo tries to tear them apart and actually makes him an avenger.
There is no true good/evil. It is just about all perspective. In order for “good” to exist there needs to be “evil” ☯️ when things get off scale there will be a clash/conflict to rebalance it. “With great powers comes great responsibility” which what makes these superheroes (especially Marvel) very relatable to us who enjoy them so much. In the end we as human can achieve a lot of great things but we are also our own biggest enemy because we have a tendency to get ahead of ourselves and do more harm to others than we realized.
okay i think you threw a sociopath word veeery loosley here without really knowing what that means. sociopaths do not feel empathy or remorse for their actions. They have no sense of right and wrong. They often do bad things because it brings them joy, they just like to hurt people. Zemo explictly said in civil war he doesn't want to hurt anyone, but if there's no other option he will. He knows what he did was wrong , and he apologized for it (the clips from those scence are in the video) he never hurts others for fun, he has strong sense of right and wrong so no, Zemo is definetly not a sociopath.
@@gabibukadajebucha I know what a sociopath is. They are someone that is born normal but close off their emotions and are able use/mistreat others without remorse...exactly the way Zemo did with the Avengers and the way he murdered that man in the cargo crate/secret lab, execution style.
PS He also murdered multiple people in Civil War. His words that he didn't want to hurt anyone mean nothing when his actions show him repeatedly murdering people, without remorse.
@@davidm4566 Zemo is not a good person but, not being good doesn’t equal with being a sociopath. Zemo shows remorse for killing T’chaka and using Bucky, he doesn’t show remorse for destroying the avengers because they were responsible for his family death, or for killing dr. Nigel because the man was a mad scientist, an eugenic who thought himself to be a god and would keep making super soldier serum if Zemo didin’t kill him. i’m not saying what he did was good but i don’t think it’s very different from when heroes kill villains. and like i said, sociopaths hurt people for their pleasure and because they think they can, because they’re better than everyone else. Zemo exactly like he said didn’t enjoy killing, but he thought it was nessecery to his plan. but why am i even writing all of this, everything is laid down in this video so watch again i guess
Well, like most of the evil in the MCU comes directly from Stark, soooo...
My God man, you have just destroyed my mind. Wow this has to be one of the best discussions I've ever heard, like you made me view Zemo in a completely new light. Thanks so much for this lesson, I will never forget it.
Ryan is a movie doctor.
He dissects
He easter eggs
But most importantly
Your mom
The heroes in the current MCU are pretty tame. Wait until Ghost Rider and Silver Surfer are canon. They just do whatever the fuck they want. Human laws are totally beneath their notice.
When you mentioned the Endgame time travel I realized this actually leads to everything now happening in the multiverse, because of Loki
Zemo also reminds me of Lex Luthor, especially from the TV series Smallville. Luthor was my favorite character in that show. It was hard to disagree with him as with Zemo. I never really understood Zemo's role in the Marvel Comics, but I think he is a great character in the MCU.
Love this video. Zemo is such a good character I'm so glad that a video like this is out here to show people that he's well written and has lots of depth to him. And have to say this but zemo is one of the best characters in the MCU. Better than people like kill monger because he was just a terrible crybaby character. Especially compared to zemo
it'll be interesting if Zemo will play a big role in this phase of the MCU . great video I really like her character in falcon and the winter soilder
Thanks for this video. Zemo and his crusade against super soldiers made that limited series truly exceptional. I would like to digress here: In the sequence showing Bucky being deprogrammed, he was shown as not responding to a TRANSLATION IN WAKANDAN of the trigger words, which is of course no indication that the English words wouldn't still trigger the Winter Soldier brainwashing.