unnecessary loot items - DEFINITELY one of the worst parts of MMO experience. While you mentioned it in GW2 as one of the reasons why you dont get much into GW2, its prevalent across most if not all MMORPGs and its a headache to deal with, specially so because it takes you hours of what should be time spent adventuring, just sorting out all the loot and deciding if or not to toss it away. Even worse its when you can't sell it and its needed to craft a certain item which you may want in the future, but since you can't get it through the shop, you just have to keep in inventory until you are ready to craft it.
Here are some things I hate about MMORPGs in 2023. And here is an ad for Raid Shadow Legends, which contains quite a few of these issues......Oh. you didn't say the last part :)
Agreed. I love collecting things and don't mind a grind now and then. But when it's tied to dailies and the like, they eventually make me quit. I usually like them for a while, but eventually want to take a break without feeling like I'm "missing out" on chances, etc.
In MMORPGs I hate...when leveling feels like an inconvenience to reach end-game content. I'd much rather play a game where the entire game is about the leveling experience, and group-centric content and raids occur across all levels rather than just the end-game.
i really miss that. in older mmorpgs i think i never reached the lvl cap and still got a lot lot lot of fun from the game. now it feels like they are creating 90% of the world just for you to walk trough it and do few quests in every area to then be stuck forever in last town farming "endgame" dungeons and sht imo lvl cap should be only reachable for total mega no lifers
@@mikeferris6032 Ashes is at 5 years, i think that is more than fair for a game that size and feature-richness. Camelot Unchained or Star Citizen however... they are nearing that ballpark ^^
@@TheLazyPeon great points here. I really hope Intrepid does a good job mitigating RMT as much as possible. I’m going to make a video on that soon. Thanks for covering Ashes! You’re the one who put me on to it.
Biggest problem I have with every newer MMO is that it feels like a game. In EQ, DAOC, Vanilla WoW, CoH and other old MMOs I just felt like I lived in the game and it was just an alternate dimension or reality. New MMOS are like, "THIS IS A GAME! DO THIS! AND THIS! AND THIS! AND DO THEM AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE OR YOU WILL FOREVER BE BEHIND!"
When a guy dressed like Tron wielding a giant candycane sword is riding a giant pink plush turtle, is waiting by you for an event to pop. It kinda takes you out of immersion.
Devs openly talk about "gamifying" systems (making them more game-y). Last one I heard was Dev Katy in NW saying they wanted to "gamify" world pvp (which they ended up doing).
In most mmos I enjoy the leveling process and then find that to get into any form of static requires a minimum gear score. I generally do that math just after hitting max level and decide that it isn’t worth continuing. And another thing. If crafting exists, make it a real and viable option. A lot of games will have a decent crafting system and then not allow players to actually get gear through crafting that would even allow them to participate in end game.
iirc, Revelation Online has a gear crafting system that if you got lucky with the rolls then it can be your end game gears until new ones are introduced. Tho again its RNG-based so that is the downside.
"Oh great! Fun! an actual crafting system...Oh. Right. Stuck making rubbish for 6 months that I can't even sell. Great, not". Don't get me started about "Oh Crap. I picked up too many rocks. Now I can't even walk". Lol.
sry craig, not to curtail your video, i just thought it'd be good to add timestamps. these are pretty relevant, thanks for the vid o7 1. bad loot management 1:51 2. needing 3rd party build websites 3:52 3. dailies/weekly login chores 4:50 4. in game currency sold in cash shop 6:18 5. multiple gear sets 9:16 6. quantity over quality (questing) 10:12 7. add on requirements 12:13 8. alt unfriendly mmos 13:30 9. non-accountwide completionism 14:06 10. auto/afk gameplay 14:48 11. ugly UI 16:11 12. transmog (gear skins) 17:07
Yep, these games by design are supposed to take thousands of hours of course now we realize as players time is precious. The middle ground is an mmo that probably dies in like a month or 2, about the same time a single player game peaks in the market
Many good points. I think the problem is.. many of these are kinda.. major parts of what mobile games come with, are normal and even sometimes needed in those. And then they kinda seeped into "real" MMOs, where many of these things don't belong.
On the inventory system front, I feel MMO's should take a note from Survival RPG's. Like Valhim where everything you take maters, each outing you have to prepare for ahead of time. A lot of MMO's don't have enough risk or struggle outside of some dps checks on bosses, etc.
Basically Albion Online. It does so much right from a world mechanics perspective. If the combat was better it would be so good. The combat is still okay, but leaves me wanting more.
I agree on the glmaour/transmog opinion. Though in classic wow it was really cool to know a players entire history in a single glance. They were as geared as the adventure they had been on. That storytelling (among all other relevant atorytelling) doesnt exist in modern day MMOGs (they arent really rpgs anymore)
It's weird, I think it both adds to and detracts from the RP element. I love what you say about the storytelling of the gear that someone has, and think that's really cool. But at the same time, I love that I can totally customise my character and make them look the way I think they should look. In a way transmog let's me show the personality of my character (at least in my mind). It's a bit of a trade off.
@@devoutchaos375 I think a good compromise would be to unlock transmog at max level. Or maybe needing an achievement for it. Being able to put on gear from the latest raid at level 1 doesn't make much sense.
@@renealbrechtsen9743 In FF14, the Transmog gear has to match the Level of your Character. I love Transmog, I often find the EndGame Gear ridiculously ugly and unfitting for the role I'm playing. So I always pick something that looks like proper fighting-fit armor but also pleases my aesthetic senses. I also hate it that, if there's no Transmog, at some point everyone looks the same pretty much. There's no individuality or personality. Rarely there's MMORPGs where certain pieces are so rare that it really makes you look up to a player when you see them in that rare armor. Most of the time it's only a matter of a few weeks until a lot of players wear the self same shit. That's a problem FF11 had in it's earlier stages. Paired with the very limited character creator, you had so many copy pasta characters in that game. So I'm so happy that in this time and age we have Transmog and I can truly bring my Character to live.
Transmog isnt just what he said though. Transmog being having the ability to change your gears look and retain attributes is essential in any game that has gear imo. And it should be built in and free. If I've unlocked a design, I should be able to switch to it at any time and change how I look and mix and match. Having skins on the market place to transmog with though, being what he and you are referring to, is where that problem comes in, where looking cool is no longer achieved, but bought. could you imagine if something like Fortnite, if you had to earn the skins? 99% of the player base, kids,who play the game just to look like X character while they do it, would drop it immediately if they had to win 100 games with only a pistol to unlock Gokus skin.
I still remember my first trip to jueno in final fantasy 11 like 16 years ago. Was an epic journey. Also my first trip to the valkurn dunes from windsurst
@@Megaman8880 you used to ask people in the game when you got stuck on something, now, information is so easily searchable online that I guess most don't bother.
Inventory space can be a cool form of progression. I personally feel like in vanilla wow getting bag drops, targeting quests that give bags, leveling tailoring or finding a tailor to make bags for you, managing inventory while leveling to maximize gold gained, etc. Is actually a fun mechanic that makes you feel your character growing in power beyond just damage and hp. That said in almost every other mmo I've played limited inventory space feels terrible and tacked on to get you to buy microtransactions.
WoW's inventory and item system is something I didn't expect to miss so much when I started playing other MMO's where that style is not the norm and space is much more limited. I've always been a hoarder in games and WoW was perfect in that regard since I could just max out my inventory and create more alts if I ran out of space on one. Just let more hoard as many items as I possible so I can enjoy the game itself and not have to go and constantly do errands, like managing inventory space
Tibia to this day did the best, it uses weight, and you can expand your inventory as much as you want if you can carry it... yes usually it sucks, but the weight system in Tibia is fair enough where you can carry everything you need... ~unless you're a low level mage, but usually that's solved very quickly nowdays by leveling... ~~also you have infinite storage space for free.
WoW will never be big without balanced PvP servers and cheaper character boosts. also heirlooms + unbalanced servers without social interaction in open world
the cash shop makes progression into a chore because it becomes obvious you're getting spammed with junk items to make you buy more space. Also in classic even some white items are a huge gold injection (weapon drops) so almost everything in your inventory is something valuable@@TheLazyPeon
An extremely underrated feature from AQW, is having one account and equippable classes. Earning classes from grinding reputation in areas was really fun. I believe that's why people like New World, you don't have to have 5 toons to grind separately if you want a change in playstyle.
In my opinion there are 2 ways devs should treat alts: - Either have them as equippable classes like FFXIV has, so you can do all progression on one character (may break immersion though, maybe a class feels better as a different race) or, - Have an alt automatically level to the highest leveled character on that account, because lets face it, leveling is supposed to "teach you" the fundamentals of a game, if your only difference is class specific abilities then... do you really need to kill 100 kobolds, speak to XYZ, and do 16-30 hours of content to reach "max level"? does it add to the experience? no. I really loved the creative 4th wall breaking that Lost Ark did, with shifting camera perspectives, it also felt good doing guardian raids for the first time, they could make good open world bosses, loved the minigames put into boss fights, but to hell with the implementation of "1 person does mistake, whole raid wipes", P2W systems and gated alt grinding, daily chores and alike, if that game had a better more meaningful MMORPG progression loop on a subscription service I'd gladly pay for it and continue playing it, the things it did good were spectacular and the things it did bad were just awful.
@@apocrisy3588 I think it depends on how levelling is approached in games as well. For example in Classic WoW where levelling is part of the journey and the fun you wouldn't want people to skip the levelling process entirely. Furthermore in the case where classes play completely different to each other (which is the way it should be instead of them being a homogenized mess) you would need to learn how to play your class through the levelling experience. Levelling can be fun if done right. Starting from the same point with every character and class regardless of race is a mistake, it hurts the world building and does not give you the feeling that you are building your character. It essentially takes the RPG out of MMORPG.
You can play DPS/BoonDPS/BoonHEAL with one class in GW2. Plus exotic stuff is quiet enough to clear almost every end game content. Why would you quit that game for a bad gameplay and a monthtly subscription ??? Some people want to waste their money on real crap here.@@wdasgo1122
Great video. What I want every MMO design to think about when creating a game is: "how does this feature contribute to having a positive experience with other players?" There are some really great single player games out there. The thing that is going to pull me away from those and into an MMO is playing content with other players. Having challenges that are larger in scale and/or complexity that require multiple people to complete. Most of the examples in TheLazyPeon's video are exactly that. Chores and inventory management are two of the greatest sins in MMOs. How many times have you played an MMO and your buddy says, hold on, I have to finish this chore and empty my bags first. That all said, my number one frustration with MMOs is builds. Seriously. In most games, the concept of a character build system is just a false sense of choice. Most options are there just for companies to make ridiculous statements like "Oh wow, we have so much choice", "We have X gazillion ways to build your character", or just "Make your own path". In truth, builds usually come down to whether you are willing to max/min your playstyle in that one way to achieve x% better results, the typical build most players should use, and that one niche build that works in that one fight. If MMO companies cannot present well balanced system for the "make your own path" systems, then limit the number of choices we have to the level that you are able to provide game balance.
Guild Wars 2 NPCs Talking for hours bad quests: The base GW2 game had a visual novel style dialogue system where the characters engaged in dialogue would pop up on screen with nice background art and animations. These dialogues were skipable. But because dumb-asses complained about "Ma immersion ! " and the devs gave in, this dialogue system was removed from around Heart of Thorns going forward. Now we all have to sit around watching Majorie and Kas talk about their fucking feelings for hours.
Great video! Inventory management and bad UIs are definitely the things that get under my skin the most! While I understand some limitations may have their origins in code architecture, or lack thereof, but that still doesn't keep them from profiting off of selling us more bags or retainers for storage!
Honestly the ability to know the quality of an opponent's gear from how it looks is something I don't like in the first place. I like transmog. It creates a knowledge gap, and you lose all the risk inherent to PvP. You fight people weaker and don't fight people as good or stronger. If a game had to have the ability to determine gear quality before an ambush, I'd do three things: - I'd put inspection behind a job, with maybe consumables to one-time increase the inspection ability. - I'd make the inspection window have different levels of details (per-item). A successful inspection could lead you to get all the details, while one that barely passes would lead to approximations. A failed inspection on an item would lead to just question marks everywhere. - I'd give players the ability to better "disguise" their gear with another job. A better disguised gear would fare better against inspections. Not only does it recreate the premeditation based on gear, but it also extends gameplay for both parties in a new direction.
One of the problems with today's mmorpgs, is that there isn't an infinite amount of players in that category. Which means that most of the players already has "their game", which means a new mmorpg has to blow all the other competitors out of the water to actually get a stable player base.
This is literally every single genre, franchise or a set of similar games. Not unique to MMOs, mate. Like CoD dude-bros will only buy and play CoD cause it is "their game"/"their fravourite franchise".
@@diamondhamster4320 But CoD needs 16 people to fill a lobby, an MMO needs an entire economy and has PvE/PvP sometimes WvW content that needs to be filled. It relies on way more people to carry the game to its fullest potential and is in that sense more difficult and player relient than a game like CoD or LoL.
@@diamondhamster4320 I know, and I am not saying you are wrong because you aren't. I am just adding the extra bit of extra information that while you are correct, that mentality of players is less detrimental in the shooter/moba genre than it is in an MMO, have a nice day! :)
I hope 12:47 is an editing issue and that you are not saying that fucking herorotation solves "an issue". If your issue is that the game doesn't play for you, please leave. Ok so given that 13:21 shows it again you probably mean it lol. Yes dude you totally need an addon to tell what abilities to use at every moment of every fight. Jesus christ.
Agree with everything except the account-wide progression thing. If I start a new character, I want to play a new character. A fresh experience. It's the same with singleplayer games that don't let you replay the tutorial. Sure, most people wouldn't want to anyway, but if I'm playing a game and I know that certain parts are replayable while others aren't, it just stresses me out.
I think a compromise between these two viewpoints could be reached by tying progression to servers, so all of your characters in the same server would benefit from "server/account-wide progression" while making a new character on a different server would have you start from scratch.
@@ArthurDraco that seems like a great idea! Maybe that could also encourage players (without forcing them) to primarily stick to one server, which is also something a lot of older MMO players miss, from what I've heard and read.
Kinda not surprised that when it came to alt-friendly features you didn't highlight FFXIV being one of the best examples of how to do it right since you can do every job on one character. Which helps your attachment to that character since you won't have a need for an alt unless you wanted to play as a different race without using a Fantasia
You bring some very good points, I would say that for transmog, the only problem is the cash shop and not the system itself. If you worked hard on getting a super skin ingame but the item doesn't fit your build, I think it's nice if you could transmog it to an other item. To me, making a build is as enjoyable as finding the perfect appearance for my character so I like having options. But being able to buy skins with real money and having lvl 2 characters look better than endgame character is a big nope.
I agree on most issues but some does not really matter to be honest. Black Desert Online AFK time - From my recent min-maxing profit experiment for AFK time from opening my PC 24/7 I get less silver than killing monsters for 30 mins - 1 hour. So my new strategy for the future gameplay is just grind for 1 hour (or 2 if i feel fit) then be done for the day unless i am working on my PC then i can turn on AFK mode and minimize the game to get some stuffs done (mostly for crafting materials for unique items not for profit) Costume for Silver - Everyone in the game will be happy if someone does it. Useless Items - This is a nightmare for new players (I have to manage and optimize my inventory so much until I dont see this as a problem anymore) Alt Characters - While it is good these days for options to switch to other classes but still u will be limited by bag slots and max weight of that specific character. Questing - ...... One of the most annoying thing in BDO, but hey at least they are trying to fix it even it may took ages. Multiple Gear Sets - BDO only has 4 sets [AP ACC EVA DR] where 3 of them are really endgame Catch up to old player - watch Streamer "Choice" General UI - Keep playing and u will memorize every single one by default. no kidding most of them are very informative Combat UI - it is very customizable .mine is very clean and minimal Costumes - I think old design team is gone and the new one is doing a very good job at it.
The inventory thing... is one of the biggest reasons why I stopped playing GW2 and BDO (not the only reasons but one of the biggest reasons). I had sessions that were over an hour long in BDO just to sort out the items, decide which ones I should keep in my storage and which ones I should sell (which I never would've done if a friend wouldn't have helped me). It's almost like every single item is part of another feature in the game.
maybe its because i GW2 is my main MMO, but inventory was never a complaint to me. Quick button to auto deposit mats into your bank, sell junk to a vendor, and right click and break down all gear of X rarity and lower. you can buy specific bags that hold specific gear to keep it organized visually (idk how he or others play with the "one big bag" option, I have mine split so that all those different items are grouped together automatically). The only problem is there are a lot of items over the years that once the event is done, the item is useless. or so you assume. there are a bunch of items like that, especially if you're a long time player, where you're like, do i need this still? but thats as someone whos been playing since launch. not something a new player will have to deal with really.
@@hoofhearted4Yeah in GW2 it wasn't as bad as in BDO. But I remember at some point I had lots of different special items in my inventory and I didn't know what those items were for. Some of them are like you have to collect X amount of that item for it to be actually useable? Some items directed to an NPC I need to interact with, etc. Maybe that's the event stuff you were talking about 😅
@@hoofhearted4the very point you have to play the game with a specific bag option that is bought from the shop must show you there is an issue with the system. But even ignoring that. What you describe is a chore. Store this, destroy that, store that... all things that you have learned to do mechanically. That is a chore. It's not a fun part of the game, it's something you have to do, for the sake of continuing. And even if it's not taking you that long... why do you have to do it? But I have to say that I have also quit gw2 because of all the items and junk that is thrown in my inventory. I never reached far into the game and this was one of the main reasons why. Level up - items and boxes with items. Log in - items and boxes with items... and a lot of them as a fairly new player you have no idea of what to do with. Should I use this buff/boost now or store it for later, what are those packs, do I want to open them now and fill my bag and spend more time managing the inventory, or ignore them and proceed with the gameplay, what the f are those tokens, do I want to use this xp boost and level up just to get more "bonuses" and items as a "reward"... Then I hear people say "this or that game is bad because it has autoplay and it plays itself, just play gw2" and I think to myself, well when I play gw2 I level up without playing the game, so is it any different? as a person who don't have much time playing games I had many cases where I log in start sorting things out in my inventory because of all the junk I was rewarded for logging in, and then I had to go and do adult stuff. without actually playing the game. And the next day when I think of logging in instead of getting exited for a login bonus, I get frustrated because of it, and I may not enter just so I don't have to deal with it. The game itself is good, it's great even. But damn if those things are not frustrating. Devs nowadays forget that streamlining is usually the best approach and instead add a bunch of fillers that actually make a lot of people irritated.
@@IcoKirov can't say I really agree honestly. Why do we have to do those things? Because those things break down into crafting materials or things you can sell. Economy is a big part of GW2, as is crafting. Having bags that auto organize loot doesn't speak to the problem whatsoever. You don't have to, you can use the view Peon shows and the things I said will work all the same and clean out 75% of your inventory at least. The complaint just sounds like you legit don't want to have anything to do besides combat which is fine, but then MMOs aren't really a gaming genre for you. As for all the bonuses, it's not as complicated as you make it seem. Just use the boost. All the stuff you get at login isnt much and most is auto deposited because it's crafting mats. And for anything you don't know, I mean for any game this size and age you're going to have to spend some time researching and learning. Again if GW2 is complicated, MMOs might not be your thing. I'd say GW2 is an entry MMO.
I played Blue Protocol for 6 days before getting banned and it was pretty fun. And you can't even trade with other players in that game, which is ridiculous. If developers actually want to make good MMOs that are fun to play, they definitely can - if they want to, that is.
Agree with all of your points, especially the transmog point. I really miss the days where I could look at someone and think his gear is cool asf, which in turn would make me want to take part of end game more
That short GW2 shot in the first 2 mins where you are clicking on individual things to salvage hurt to see. There is an "auto-salvage all x tier of item" that is life saving. Side note: If you do ever pick it up again, you should definitely try Bladesworn warrior for big dmg hits (100-200k from charge up attack) and try crafting a legendary.
Bladesworn sucks You rarely get its dragon steel move to hit that hard AND it relies way too much on that move for damage, the gunblade is just a flow generator Berserker and Spellbreaker are better
Agreed but even with auto-salvage there are a ton of items that still get backed up, or items that you dont know if you should sell or if they are even worth selling as there are a TON of items that just outright qualify as junk that arent even worth selling and yet they are hard to identify as to if or not you will need them later on. And dont even get me started on the items that you cant even sell. like when you craft a component for an item but you realize dont have enough to craft the entire item and it will take you a long time to get all the materials, so you are stuck with that component or various components and cant sell them so they just pile up in your inventory.
I have to say I pretty much agree with every point that you made with the exceptions of world-building quests and NPC's talking. Great vid and great takes.
Agreed on Transmog. I think the solution is to tie it to gear level. WoW already ties it to armor class, and player level. You have some good level 20 options, but not all the epics and endgame options for when you hit max level. Now if the current raid skins were locked behind having gear that is comparable in gear level to those raid skins, then you'd know that the current set of raid content can only be worn by players that are wearing gear strong enough for current raid tier. So they'd have to unlock the costume by finding it, and then they'd also have to be good enough at pvp or rich enough to buy BiS or literally pug and pray to rnjesus in order to be dressed in top tier current content. ...And hopefully the devs don't think recolours of old content is enough reward incentive for a whole new raid encounter.
Things you hate about MMOs could also be applied to Raid Shadowlegends :) Seriously though, I got tired of Lost Ark especially figured I could just wait a few months and get powerpassed up instead of grinding. I played BDO at launch for about six months, then returned about three months ago. It feels much better these days and progression is easier. Coming from Ultima Online at first, I disliked that in BDO I couldn’t sell my craftables directly to other players since it felt impersonal and removed RP opportunities… but I do agree it’s a good system considering the abuse of other systems. Honestly, my favorite thing to do in BDO is just take my life skill tools and start randomly exploring a section of the world off of the main roads, finding rare gatherables or even a secret cave. Sure it’s not the most optimal game play in terms of silver, but with how seamless BDO is, the exploration is enjoyable.
Lmao. No hate, I know he needs to get paid and sponsors do that. But knowing I'm about to here a bunch of valid criticisms about games right after the same person reads an ad for raid shadow legends was funny and ironic.
I really need to take this approach myself, I keep coming back to BDO but get caught up in the grind for money and trying to be efficient at all times. I love the games atmosphere and I think I just need to slow down and not care about making lots of money or being efficient and just enjoy the game again. Especially since I'm not in a guild and play as a solo player so I don't pvp or anything.
"If I'm spending half of my playtime that I don't really find fun, then why am I playing in the first place?" Replace half with 90% and you just described Genshin Impact. I do gotta say tho, these days AFK activities in BDO are very insignificant in comparison to actually grinding and doing active stuff. To the point that I really dont even feel the need to do it anymore. Out here grinding for over 1bil/hr and afk fishing overnight might make me like 5 minutes worth of grinding at BEST(including what workers would bring in overnight).
This. I am very curious about this too. What I hear most from the mmo community is griping about games. But, what current games do what the gripers want? Not really calling Peon a griper, I have my annoyances with mmos too, but just curious what ppl are playing if they arent playing the games they are complaining about.
subscription based MMOs are so difficult for me to get into. runescape and WoW are so much fun, but when i take a week off, i feel like i'm just wasting my money.
BDO really does well with the RMT situation by disabling player trading. You simply can't RMT silver without selling Pearl shop stuff. To make any reasonable amount of silver off that would be thousands of real money which is nuts. The price caps are amazing too, the whales can't own the market because you simply can't devalue stuff to oblivion like WoW or FFXIV.
They left a huge loop hole open for years. There was an epidemic of bot guilds filling guild banks with trillions of silver via sailing, then you paid on Venmo for a guild spot on guild payout days. Life finds a way. This route is significantly nerfed now, but that pretty much just grandfathers in people with a lifetime supply of silver. People are still dominating markets on the most valuable items with this botted silver.
The problem with disabling trading is some ppl like to buy stuff for their friends and give it to them. You might say fine just disable the ability to trade money, but even that doesnt stop gold selling. BDO in its early stages let you trade potions which gold sellers would just buy enmasse from npcs and then give you them to sell to get money. So they can just do that with any item and then you still have to monitor every item. Well what about adding a gift option? Gold sellers will exploit that as well or just straight up sell you the item for cheaper that it is on the cash shop. Theres no real win against gold sellers. You might as well hire a team of ppl to just ban accounts associated with them until the players base just outright stops buying from them. And you better hope they dont start taking handouts from gold sellers and lying about doing their jobs either lol.
Transmog issue would be easily solved by keeping it behind a playtime-wall, where it is only unlocked after reaching endgame so you can be sure they played through the mainstory and have a minimum ability and experience level to be expected. Also helps keep the immersion from being constantly broken by others
The worst part about inventory management is that it's so much worse if you're a returning player and you forgot what half of the items are for and maybe are pointless now so u have no clue if u should keep it or not. And the daily/timegate systems have been annoying me for a while now. I get it, it's the "fix" devs implemented to avoid having to put ridiculous grind in the game. Developers don't want players to finish all the new content in a few days and then stop playing. They used to implement crazy grinds so players would have to spend weeks or months getting everything but because players complained they had to find other ways to keep people playing. But honestly this daily timegate shit isn't the way. I rather deal with grind and have players who have more time get ahead of me than being locked out of progressing more when ifeel like playing. About the quests & npcs talking though, i agree to some extent, however I think my favourite are when npcs have their dialogue while doing something like when they talk during gameplay or talk while going somewhere.
Remember the Lineage 2 first chronicles, where u knew from the beginning what armour is good for each lvl and grade, inventory only with materials and recipes ... simple game but with awesome mechanics. Vote for Lineage 3
Throne and Liberty is basically sequal for L2, glad devs decided to change mechanics behind the combat, removing auto play + fixing the combat makes me excited about the game again. If Throne & Liberty fails, I'm going back to Lineage 2 again...private server.
@@JustFaithless yeah man... LazyPeon uses alot of Lineage2 music in his videos... so everytime I hear it I just have to listen to the whole Soundtrack... Dion Village.. Gludin... man... good times.
When was the last time Peon played a game for more than a week? The only time you see him play something again is if it does any big updates.. Look at his video list.. no credibility anymore, just talking.
Regarding transmog, I think a lesser customization option would be ideal, something like a dye system that can be used on everything. Would allow some level of creativity and fashion, prevent every max level character of the same class from looking identical, but still allow any experienced player to ID a rough gear/power level at a glance.
Until gamers blame themselves for the stupidest request game communities make the devs do, it will never stop. Gamers ask for cosmetic items, skins, paint, and "X-ray" glasses....pointless items that you get board with after 5 min. They ask for 3v3 or instances thinking that would be amazing "end game" but the truth is gamers have no clue at all what "end game" content is. End game needs to be something that keeps you AND your friends logging in EVERY DAY and give both of you an ADVENTURE! Not some pointless grind in an instance, 3vs3 pvp or some dumb x-ray glasses. I won't even bother explain types of end game because the ignorance of gamers can't be cured by me until they or some big youtuber *cough cough* educated them on what end game content really is.
I agree with everything except the transmog part. Usually the best sets in the game have overly complex fantasy design and I hate it. I don't care if I can see how strong you are the magic clothes needs to disappear anyway. Imagine if you had a pair of underpants that made you charismatic and a pair that made you intelligent. You'd need to shift underpants all the time depending on what you do. Stupid system. We have the technology to get rid of that someone just have to break the mmo making recepie and do it.
I like transmog when it's just about using other skins from inside the game that are still thematically appropriate. It's fun to be able to customize your character that way, and while I also understand the downside of not being able to see people's power level visually, I would say the pros outweigh the cons up to that point. But where I draw the line is when people use transmog to use all kinds of bullshit skins that make no sense. I don't want to play dungeons with people that are naked, or in bikinis, pyjamas, all kinds of modern day clothes that break the medieval fantasy setting, etc. When transmog is widely used to destroy the visual atmosphere of a game, the game becomes about 80% less attractive to me.
I actually play games for the sake of story and I prefer when there are interesting conversations happening between characters like he showed in GW2. To me, it makes me feel immersed in the world and shows me the extent of creativity and attention to detail that devs can make. In contrast, every game that generally only focuses on combat gets dropped once there's no story attached to it anymore so that's just my view on it
I'm on the same boat. While I understand that immersion, storytelling and worldbuilding isn't going to be for everyone, 9/10 times the people who'd complain about a game taking its story too seriously would also be the same people to ditch a game for laser-focusing on the gameplay and having no cohesive narrative structure to carry it, ironically citing that to be the very reason why they quit. That said, MMOs should give you the option to skip dialogues and scripted NPC interactions for those who want to get straight to the action. Not an MMO, but I think Cyberpunk 2077 did a fantastic job at pulling that off.
Attention to detail is exactly what I get out of FFXIV. Literally everything has lore including the rocks and soil. The story is also one of the best I have seen in any RPG but I must say I like the way GW2 goes about their main story since you can do them cop-op no matter how far apart your level is from your friend.
games without story that is still being played after a long time: counter strike, minecraft, terraria, factorio, osu, dont starve, oxygen not included. dota, league, street fighter and tekken have story but most players are only there for the gameplay
You put LINEAGE 2 DION THEME as a background and I just wanna say I incredibly appreciate that. I have never heard a better soundtrack in any game since.
Every time I feel like playing a mmo now a days I end up on Project 1999. Also reading isn’t bad… reading and stories build the world. They make the world alive. FF14 wouldn’t be half as good without the story.
Man, I have to say that suggesting that more games should disable trading player to player is an awful suggestion. I know it can be used by gold sellers, but there are other ways around that that don't detract from other aspects of game enjoyment.
Anything that lets players get gear even cosmetic, pisses me off, everything remotely cool should be hard to earn or earnable in the game, instantly ruins my immersion.
Woah! As the future indie dev (still studying in 12th grade senior high school), I'll take notes these aspects and lessons from your video to counteract the future issues of my future indie sandbox mmo combine with both roguelite-moba action combat system (inspired from Paragon, Hades, and Guild Wars 2) and sandbox building elements (inspired from Minecraft and Fortnite) to became innovative to and also unique from other existing mmos
I don't really agree with simply handwaving dynamic class / skill / equipment builds by saying "it won't be balanced". it's not the player's fault for minmaxing a build and getting away with it; it's the game's fault. why is your game's battle system so bland that one build can outshine every other? give bosses different traits and behaviors. give a boss extremely high evasion so characters with high accuracy can shine. give mobs elemental resistance and weaknesses, and let the otherwise useless elemental skill shred a particular content with ease. make a boss resistant to ranged attacks, or weak to environmental traps, or immune to magical damage. create enemies that mobs in high numbers, or overwhelm you with extremely high crit bursts. let enemy units hit your backlines with debuffs, let bosses dispel buffs from your beefed up tank. make a certain boss weak to knockback/interrupt attacks. give enemy units different movement speed and attack speed. give rogues invisibility and archers / mages a detection ability to counter it. the list goes on there's so much room for creativity in designing game mechanics aside from HP and damage. create a game with proper depth to its mechanics. let players builds their characters to excel in one particular instance, or be a jack-of-all-trades. the creative decision in designing a role playing game character should always be at the hands of the players, not the system's, for the sake of "balance".
That’s what I loved about EverQuest, in the early days hardly anything dropped, and if you did get a drop it was something like bone chips which you really needed for a pet cast or a flask of water etc stuff you really needed.
For me the biggest problem of most MMO's is that they are just bloated with so many features that people expect nowadays, there's like zero level of immersion. Playing Classic Wow for the first time several months ago just made me realize how much more magical it can be when it really feels like a totally different enormous world... and you only know what Elwynn Forest looks like.
Great vid. A lot of my own sentiments are reflected in here. I recently went back to WoW, just to try Hardcore, and while it did scratch the nostalgia itch, I was also reminded of some of the nigh inescapable aspects I don't like about current MMORPGs. The limited bag system did make it really exciting when I found a bag drop, but the amount of quest items alone that clutter your very limited inventory was very annoying. Made me want at least a separate tab just for those. And seeing how many people were using Addons that guided them through the game, kind of felt like it negated the whole exploration aspect. I also just really wish these games would pay more attention to the issues with bots and gold sellers and ban them, but it feels like to pad numbers and puff up subs, they're here to stay. And if a game touts being able to be AFK/Idle to play, then what is even the point of playing? An issue I dislike that I didn't see brought up, was an abundance of systems within the games. I think this is more egregious for Asian MMOs, but having multiple levels of upgrades that you need to farm and manage for weapons and gear and skills, just gets so overwhelming and tedious it turns me right off. Especially if they are selling you the solutions of not having enough materials or having materials and/or items break during the process of utilizing the system.
Transmog is "easy to fix": - Only allow the use of transmog in town or - It's an option, where you can turn on / off As a dev, I can say it's not that hard to implement.
Your point about just "wanting to get back into the gameplay" specifically in regards to FF14 is fucking asinine, as the dual focuses of any Final Fantasy have been gameplay and story. You don't like story? Play a different game.
Ive been playing FFXIV for the past year and compared the problems you described and how I see them in FFXIV. It checks most of the boxes for a good design with good implementation for most of the problems a MMO can have. Questing probably being the most abnoxious for who don't care about it since the main story quest is huge and mandatory. Very nice video, great points.
Yeah but FFXIV is mostly an FF game with an mmo skin. Some people simply do not like that genre like people who can see good designs on games like racing games yet still acknowledge it's not their style.
A cool part concept of an MMO is starting with nothing and being nothing. Everything you do has meaning like professions can help your journey from start to finish and where the world is big, mysterious and has many cool things in it. I like when everything has weight to it. Like if i see some guy running past and he has a cool helmet or shoulders I want to know where that came from and it was not bought in a store or he just got it because he was in the game for 10 hours straight. I want the world to also feel dangerous and difficult.
I hope you do know that you can right click salvage kit in GW2, salvage all your loot by rarity and then send materials to bank with another button. It takes like 5 seconds.
I think this just ties into his point like in like in Lost Ark where you can potentially get very good items from chaos dungeon runs, but you still have to sort out what is good and what is bad before you can salvage everything else. Thus, it's not a 5 second solution anymore.
TWO things I absolutely HATE in mmo's: 1. SHAKY CAMERA- every hit and your screen shakes, like so many stupid movies accentuate action by shaking the camera that is doing the recording. I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2. BRIGHT FLASHES- every hit and the entire screen flashes one or more colors, it's a loser, like the shaky camera crap and to a lesser extent: 3. OBNOXIOUS COMBAT ANIMATION- is it really realistic you can swing a weapon that weighs more than you do, 157,000 miles per hour thru the air? so lame, seems infantile to me, again, lazy devs pulling cheap loser moves, because if they don't, the action looks dead and boring, so hey, lets make everything explode 5 times every second! yeah! or better, 10 times per second! YEAH! MORE! MORE! MORE!
Your counting skills need work :) I agree though. I miss the days of tab target combat with sensible, yet satisfying animations. I really don't understand why people like all the bright, flashy and over-the-top combat in games. There's zero feeling of weight to the animations because it's all clearly unphysical.
I hate to be playing for a few hours without needing help from strangers. MMOs once used to bring strangers together instead of driving them away. Now every user walking nearby is either Competition, a Threat, or a Ghost. It's a virtual world full of people: Why not promote more meaningful interactions between them? Anything other than raid queues, PvP queues, or joining random guilds just for profit. MMOs today are too easy and input-heavy, so there's no reason for users to join up with random players nearby, much less to say "hello" or stop grinding to reply to a simple greeting.
02:00 Ahh man.. why do you have to hit me like that... Hunters Village, Lineage 2 soundtrack, chills ran down my spine. I miss this game so much, so many great memories.... the best game I have EVER played in my life
One turn-off for me that is not mentioned is "fair play" in MMO when interaction between players limited with 5vs5 arenas of some sort or even worse - players are equalized to same level - second thing takes out the feel of progression, why spend hundreds of hours to gain experience if it gives nothing? And the first thing takes MM aspect from MMO - if I would like fair fight I would go to LOL or DOTA, where everyone start ate the same time, on the same level with same amount of team members, in Massive Multiplayer game I would like that interacting with other players would be beneficial - If you can gather a group of 20 players and opposing team not - it is their problem, get good in social interaction or overcome it with overleveled character. More over when you are not limited on group/party/guild size there is less discrimination of not-meta-build players, because numbers matters, because experience matters.
@TheLazyPeon You basically just described MMORPGs. What do you LIKE about MMORPGs? (Or is that the next video?) Honestly, I think you and many other MMORPG fans are just getting older and games just don’t hold the same appeal as they used to because you can see behind the curtain. You’ve lost your youthful sense of wonder; your willing suspension of disbelief. Those days are just gone, unfortunately.
Gear in PVP. Makes it so no mmo never will be able to be good pvp game. Have an arena mode where you get all the skills and gear you need and go at it, like lost ark. Just a shame you have to be max level to pvp in that game.
Using a transmogrification system to deliberately dress in the cheapest, most pitiful manner possible is my perpetual indulgence. There's nothing like running into a battle, armed in tattered leather with a simple, unadorned wooden bow and one-shotting unskilled cash-shoppers in their glittering robes and angel wings, while the proud veterans in gleaming metal smirk at the idea that I could keep pace. I've always found the Strider/Aaragorn, Kisuke Urahara, etc, trope of masking your strength under a veneer of humility far more appealing than any amount of gaudy regalia.
Levelscaling! I understand it can be needed to play with your friends...but for me it removes all purpose of lvl ing...it seems all mmo's turning into these scalings these days. It makes me sad.
I remember back before transmog, the gear you had equipped told a tale of where you have been and who or what monsters you have defeated. I wish transmog didn’t exist, the best looking gear should be the hardest to obtain in game. Luckily old school RuneScape does this, but you can still just buy bonds. I don’t think removing a cash shop will help the game though, jagex had no choice because so many people were being scammed that credit card companies were about to start declining anything related to jagex. At one point jagex had to restrict free trade entirely because of this. Jagex gives a means of buying gold without being scammed or giving your card to shady Chinese farming companies. I think the selling gold is a win for both sides in this respect.
New World bank management is the one picking my nerves right now. The amount of time I spend switching between city tabs looking for my green wood. It's nicer since they allow you to access all of the cities tab from anywhere but honestly at this point make one section for Items/Gear and one section for material that can be accessible automatically from the crafting stations. (I'm not max level yet or have a house so idk if it's better later on).
Hi , I have a little suggestion for a next vod. You have given several examples of bad characteristics of MMORPGs and some examples of how to avoid these problems, but I think it would be interesting examples of MMORPGs that do these characteristics right, not just the names like you do but a little bit more depth. Love your content and thanks again for sharing it.
One way to solve the cons of transmog would be to make a sort of armour "adornment" system. Granted, it'd require a lot more work from the devs (and that's likely why it's not done). I believe that an optimal system wouldn't allow for swapping the looks of one gear piece into another, but would have quite an extensive system of addons - things that you can tack onto your armour to add your personal touch, i.e: different capes, tabards, bags, pouches, bandoliers, belts, buckles, jewelry, fur, chains, cosmetic potions bottles, scrolls etc. etc. If each piece of armour was customisable enough (especially if all of that was mixed with armour dyeing system), it'd nearly entirely nullify the need for transmog, and the players would have both the personalised outfits, and the ability to look at a player and see their power level (the Legendary Dragonscale Titanforged Armour will still be the Legendary Dragonscale Titanforged Armour at a glance, even if you tack on a heap of belts and buckles onto it). EDIT: Bonus points if it's tied to gear progression, so that new types (or unique pieces when it comes to legendary stuff) of armour unlock bits and baubles that you can put on your other armour. I.e: if you unlock the aforementioned Legendary Dragonscale Titanforged Armour, now you can adorn your other armours with a bit of titanforged dragonscale etc. That should keep the system fresh and loot rewarding.
Archeage had it. Though you do have Albion Online if you're interested in something similar where those trades have actual influence on the game. The idea of trading is fun, unless you did it efficiently and didn't have to deal with griefers or the mountains of gankers.
📲 Install Raid for Free Mobile and PC: pl.go-ga.me/lm8urhfv and get a special starter pack with an Epic champion Knight Errant 🔥
unnecessary loot items - DEFINITELY one of the worst parts of MMO experience.
While you mentioned it in GW2 as one of the reasons why you dont get much into GW2, its prevalent across most if not all MMORPGs and its a headache to deal with, specially so because it takes you hours of what should be time spent adventuring, just sorting out all the loot and deciding if or not to toss it away.
Even worse its when you can't sell it and its needed to craft a certain item which you may want in the future, but since you can't get it through the shop, you just have to keep in inventory until you are ready to craft it.
disliked the video just for that
@@istheway-gu6yoYou disliked the video because they need to pay rent? Just skip the ad.
@@istheway-gu6yothat wont bring meaning to your miserable life
Here are some things I hate about MMORPGs in 2023. And here is an ad for Raid Shadow Legends, which contains quite a few of these issues......Oh. you didn't say the last part :)
Daily chore list is a killer for me, I don't mind grindy rewards, but let me do at my own pace.
I do chores every day. I really don't want to feel obliged to do things in a game I don't enjoy.
Can't stand dailies
Agreed. I love collecting things and don't mind a grind now and then. But when it's tied to dailies and the like, they eventually make me quit. I usually like them for a while, but eventually want to take a break without feeling like I'm "missing out" on chances, etc.
But he promotes RAID🤣
@@DragonXDrei We all gotta make a living.
In MMORPGs I hate...when leveling feels like an inconvenience to reach end-game content. I'd much rather play a game where the entire game is about the leveling experience, and group-centric content and raids occur across all levels rather than just the end-game.
Agree. Like Gnomeragon felt like a raid too
i really miss that. in older mmorpgs i think i never reached the lvl cap and still got a lot lot lot of fun from the game.
now it feels like they are creating 90% of the world just for you to walk trough it and do few quests in every area to then be stuck forever in last town farming "endgame" dungeons and sht
imo lvl cap should be only reachable for total mega no lifers
Guild wars 2 has that tbh
Agree. Apart from the group-centric crap ;-p.
wow classic era is the only one thats been like that for me
When they take 2 decades to release.
True 🤣
Lol, Ashes of Creation? @AshesofRelation I’ve seen your channel. I’ve had to step away from Ashes. I got too hyped
@@mikeferris6032 Ashes is at 5 years, i think that is more than fair for a game that size and feature-richness. Camelot Unchained or Star Citizen however... they are nearing that ballpark ^^
@@TheLazyPeon great points here. I really hope Intrepid does a good job mitigating RMT as much as possible. I’m going to make a video on that soon. Thanks for covering Ashes! You’re the one who put me on to it.
Ases of secretion ?
Biggest problem I have with every newer MMO is that it feels like a game. In EQ, DAOC, Vanilla WoW, CoH and other old MMOs I just felt like I lived in the game and it was just an alternate dimension or reality. New MMOS are like, "THIS IS A GAME! DO THIS! AND THIS! AND THIS! AND DO THEM AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE OR YOU WILL FOREVER BE BEHIND!"
Yes! Like i started vanilla WoW late but i didnt feel like i had to be 60 quickly
When a guy dressed like Tron wielding a giant candycane sword is riding a giant pink plush turtle, is waiting by you for an event to pop. It kinda takes you out of immersion.
Novelty, yep....Unfortunantly, it's something that is incredibly difficult to recreate nor comes easy.
Devs openly talk about "gamifying" systems (making them more game-y). Last one I heard was Dev Katy in NW saying they wanted to "gamify" world pvp (which they ended up doing).
thats because you/were we young and had no grasp of reality
In most mmos I enjoy the leveling process and then find that to get into any form of static requires a minimum gear score. I generally do that math just after hitting max level and decide that it isn’t worth continuing.
And another thing. If crafting exists, make it a real and viable option. A lot of games will have a decent crafting system and then not allow players to actually get gear through crafting that would even allow them to participate in end game.
iirc, Revelation Online has a gear crafting system that if you got lucky with the rolls then it can be your end game gears until new ones are introduced. Tho again its RNG-based so that is the downside.
@@R1L6N and Revelation Online is a Chinese game at it's core, published by a shit Russian company, not really much to unpack there.
"Oh great! Fun! an actual crafting system...Oh. Right. Stuck making rubbish for 6 months that I can't even sell. Great, not". Don't get me started about "Oh Crap. I picked up too many rocks. Now I can't even walk". Lol.
sry craig, not to curtail your video, i just thought it'd be good to add timestamps. these are pretty relevant, thanks for the vid o7
1. bad loot management 1:51
2. needing 3rd party build websites 3:52
3. dailies/weekly login chores 4:50
4. in game currency sold in cash shop 6:18
5. multiple gear sets 9:16
6. quantity over quality (questing) 10:12
7. add on requirements 12:13
8. alt unfriendly mmos 13:30
9. non-accountwide completionism 14:06
10. auto/afk gameplay 14:48
11. ugly UI 16:11
12. transmog (gear skins) 17:07
The random fextralife stray was deserved 😂
Some of these really just boil down to people who as kids / teens used to enjoy MMOs growing up and realizing that time is valuable.
Wrong
Yep, these games by design are supposed to take thousands of hours of course now we realize as players time is precious. The middle ground is an mmo that probably dies in like a month or 2, about the same time a single player game peaks in the market
Many good points. I think the problem is.. many of these are kinda.. major parts of what mobile games come with, are normal and even sometimes needed in those. And then they kinda seeped into "real" MMOs, where many of these things don't belong.
On the inventory system front, I feel MMO's should take a note from Survival RPG's. Like Valhim where everything you take maters, each outing you have to prepare for ahead of time. A lot of MMO's don't have enough risk or struggle outside of some dps checks on bosses, etc.
Basically Albion Online. It does so much right from a world mechanics perspective. If the combat was better it would be so good. The combat is still okay, but leaves me wanting more.
I agree on the glmaour/transmog opinion. Though in classic wow it was really cool to know a players entire history in a single glance. They were as geared as the adventure they had been on. That storytelling (among all other relevant atorytelling) doesnt exist in modern day MMOGs (they arent really rpgs anymore)
It's weird, I think it both adds to and detracts from the RP element.
I love what you say about the storytelling of the gear that someone has, and think that's really cool. But at the same time, I love that I can totally customise my character and make them look the way I think they should look. In a way transmog let's me show the personality of my character (at least in my mind).
It's a bit of a trade off.
@@devoutchaos375 I think a good compromise would be to unlock transmog at max level. Or maybe needing an achievement for it. Being able to put on gear from the latest raid at level 1 doesn't make much sense.
@@renealbrechtsen9743 In FF14, the Transmog gear has to match the Level of your Character.
I love Transmog, I often find the EndGame Gear ridiculously ugly and unfitting for the role I'm playing. So I always pick something that looks like proper fighting-fit armor but also pleases my aesthetic senses. I also hate it that, if there's no Transmog, at some point everyone looks the same pretty much. There's no individuality or personality. Rarely there's MMORPGs where certain pieces are so rare that it really makes you look up to a player when you see them in that rare armor. Most of the time it's only a matter of a few weeks until a lot of players wear the self same shit. That's a problem FF11 had in it's earlier stages. Paired with the very limited character creator, you had so many copy pasta characters in that game. So I'm so happy that in this time and age we have Transmog and I can truly bring my Character to live.
For me the best solution is to have a button to hide transmog, so that would be client side only.
Transmog isnt just what he said though. Transmog being having the ability to change your gears look and retain attributes is essential in any game that has gear imo. And it should be built in and free. If I've unlocked a design, I should be able to switch to it at any time and change how I look and mix and match. Having skins on the market place to transmog with though, being what he and you are referring to, is where that problem comes in, where looking cool is no longer achieved, but bought. could you imagine if something like Fortnite, if you had to earn the skins? 99% of the player base, kids,who play the game just to look like X character while they do it, would drop it immediately if they had to win 100 games with only a pistol to unlock Gokus skin.
My favorite part of MMOs are the memories made with the community. They truly last a lifetime.
That can happen in any multiplayer game tho
@@supercal3944 mmos used to bring strangers together. Nowadays they just drive them away.
Everyone is either competition, a threat, or a ghost.
I still remember my first trip to jueno in final fantasy 11 like 16 years ago.
Was an epic journey.
Also my first trip to the valkurn dunes from windsurst
100% agree. I had experiences in MMOs from 15-20 years ago that I don't think are even possible anymore.
@@Megaman8880 you used to ask people in the game when you got stuck on something, now, information is so easily searchable online that I guess most don't bother.
"Things i hate about MMORPGs"
My Subconscious self instinctively replying : "The Inept money hungry companies behind them"
Inventory space can be a cool form of progression. I personally feel like in vanilla wow getting bag drops, targeting quests that give bags, leveling tailoring or finding a tailor to make bags for you, managing inventory while leveling to maximize gold gained, etc. Is actually a fun mechanic that makes you feel your character growing in power beyond just damage and hp. That said in almost every other mmo I've played limited inventory space feels terrible and tacked on to get you to buy microtransactions.
True, I do like it when it's part of progression, unfortunately more often than not these days it's just sold on the cash shop
WoW's inventory and item system is something I didn't expect to miss so much when I started playing other MMO's where that style is not the norm and space is much more limited. I've always been a hoarder in games and WoW was perfect in that regard since I could just max out my inventory and create more alts if I ran out of space on one. Just let more hoard as many items as I possible so I can enjoy the game itself and not have to go and constantly do errands, like managing inventory space
Tibia to this day did the best, it uses weight, and you can expand your inventory as much as you want if you can carry it... yes usually it sucks, but the weight system in Tibia is fair enough where you can carry everything you need...
~unless you're a low level mage, but usually that's solved very quickly nowdays by leveling...
~~also you have infinite storage space for free.
WoW will never be big without balanced PvP servers and cheaper character boosts. also heirlooms + unbalanced servers without social interaction in open world
the cash shop makes progression into a chore because it becomes obvious you're getting spammed with junk items to make you buy more space. Also in classic even some white items are a huge gold injection (weapon drops) so almost everything in your inventory is something valuable@@TheLazyPeon
An extremely underrated feature from AQW, is having one account and equippable classes. Earning classes from grinding reputation in areas was really fun.
I believe that's why people like New World, you don't have to have 5 toons to grind separately if you want a change in playstyle.
In my opinion there are 2 ways devs should treat alts:
- Either have them as equippable classes like FFXIV has, so you can do all progression on one character (may break immersion though, maybe a class feels better as a different race) or,
- Have an alt automatically level to the highest leveled character on that account, because lets face it, leveling is supposed to "teach you" the fundamentals of a game, if your only difference is class specific abilities then... do you really need to kill 100 kobolds, speak to XYZ, and do 16-30 hours of content to reach "max level"? does it add to the experience? no.
I really loved the creative 4th wall breaking that Lost Ark did, with shifting camera perspectives, it also felt good doing guardian raids for the first time, they could make good open world bosses, loved the minigames put into boss fights, but to hell with the implementation of "1 person does mistake, whole raid wipes", P2W systems and gated alt grinding, daily chores and alike, if that game had a better more meaningful MMORPG progression loop on a subscription service I'd gladly pay for it and continue playing it, the things it did good were spectacular and the things it did bad were just awful.
@@apocrisy3588 I think it depends on how levelling is approached in games as well. For example in Classic WoW where levelling is part of the journey and the fun you wouldn't want people to skip the levelling process entirely. Furthermore in the case where classes play completely different to each other (which is the way it should be instead of them being a homogenized mess) you would need to learn how to play your class through the levelling experience. Levelling can be fun if done right. Starting from the same point with every character and class regardless of race is a mistake, it hurts the world building and does not give you the feeling that you are building your character. It essentially takes the RPG out of MMORPG.
You can play DPS/BoonDPS/BoonHEAL with one class in GW2. Plus exotic stuff is quiet enough to clear almost every end game content. Why would you quit that game for a bad gameplay and a monthtly subscription ??? Some people want to waste their money on real crap here.@@wdasgo1122
Could someone tell me what song starts with: 17:20 in transmog part
Great video. What I want every MMO design to think about when creating a game is: "how does this feature contribute to having a positive experience with other players?" There are some really great single player games out there. The thing that is going to pull me away from those and into an MMO is playing content with other players. Having challenges that are larger in scale and/or complexity that require multiple people to complete. Most of the examples in TheLazyPeon's video are exactly that. Chores and inventory management are two of the greatest sins in MMOs. How many times have you played an MMO and your buddy says, hold on, I have to finish this chore and empty my bags first.
That all said, my number one frustration with MMOs is builds. Seriously. In most games, the concept of a character build system is just a false sense of choice. Most options are there just for companies to make ridiculous statements like "Oh wow, we have so much choice", "We have X gazillion ways to build your character", or just "Make your own path". In truth, builds usually come down to whether you are willing to max/min your playstyle in that one way to achieve x% better results, the typical build most players should use, and that one niche build that works in that one fight. If MMO companies cannot present well balanced system for the "make your own path" systems, then limit the number of choices we have to the level that you are able to provide game balance.
Guild Wars 2 NPCs Talking for hours bad quests: The base GW2 game had a visual novel style dialogue system where the characters engaged in dialogue would pop up on screen with nice background art and animations. These dialogues were skipable. But because dumb-asses complained about "Ma immersion ! " and the devs gave in, this dialogue system was removed from around Heart of Thorns going forward. Now we all have to sit around watching Majorie and Kas talk about their fucking feelings for hours.
Great video! Inventory management and bad UIs are definitely the things that get under my skin the most! While I understand some limitations may have their origins in code architecture, or lack thereof, but that still doesn't keep them from profiting off of selling us more bags or retainers for storage!
Honestly the ability to know the quality of an opponent's gear from how it looks is something I don't like in the first place. I like transmog.
It creates a knowledge gap, and you lose all the risk inherent to PvP. You fight people weaker and don't fight people as good or stronger.
If a game had to have the ability to determine gear quality before an ambush, I'd do three things:
- I'd put inspection behind a job, with maybe consumables to one-time increase the inspection ability.
- I'd make the inspection window have different levels of details (per-item). A successful inspection could lead you to get all the details, while one that barely passes would lead to approximations. A failed inspection on an item would lead to just question marks everywhere.
- I'd give players the ability to better "disguise" their gear with another job. A better disguised gear would fare better against inspections.
Not only does it recreate the premeditation based on gear, but it also extends gameplay for both parties in a new direction.
One of the problems with today's mmorpgs, is that there isn't an infinite amount of players in that category. Which means that most of the players already has "their game", which means a new mmorpg has to blow all the other competitors out of the water to actually get a stable player base.
This is literally every single genre, franchise or a set of similar games. Not unique to MMOs, mate.
Like CoD dude-bros will only buy and play CoD cause it is "their game"/"their fravourite franchise".
@@diamondhamster4320 But CoD needs 16 people to fill a lobby, an MMO needs an entire economy and has PvE/PvP sometimes WvW content that needs to be filled. It relies on way more people to carry the game to its fullest potential and is in that sense more difficult and player relient than a game like CoD or LoL.
@@joey5106 I was talking about the brand/franchise loyalty/tribalism aspect of it not the amount of people needed to fill a lobby, mate.
@@diamondhamster4320 I know, and I am not saying you are wrong because you aren't. I am just adding the extra bit of extra information that while you are correct, that mentality of players is less detrimental in the shooter/moba genre than it is in an MMO, have a nice day! :)
I hope 12:47 is an editing issue and that you are not saying that fucking herorotation solves "an issue". If your issue is that the game doesn't play for you, please leave.
Ok so given that 13:21 shows it again you probably mean it lol. Yes dude you totally need an addon to tell what abilities to use at every moment of every fight. Jesus christ.
Agree with everything except the account-wide progression thing. If I start a new character, I want to play a new character. A fresh experience. It's the same with singleplayer games that don't let you replay the tutorial. Sure, most people wouldn't want to anyway, but if I'm playing a game and I know that certain parts are replayable while others aren't, it just stresses me out.
I think a compromise between these two viewpoints could be reached by tying progression to servers, so all of your characters in the same server would benefit from "server/account-wide progression" while making a new character on a different server would have you start from scratch.
@@ArthurDraco that seems like a great idea! Maybe that could also encourage players (without forcing them) to primarily stick to one server, which is also something a lot of older MMO players miss, from what I've heard and read.
Please what song is playing at 4:00?
Kinda not surprised that when it came to alt-friendly features you didn't highlight FFXIV being one of the best examples of how to do it right since you can do every job on one character. Which helps your attachment to that character since you won't have a need for an alt unless you wanted to play as a different race without using a Fantasia
the weakness of ff xiv would be the questing and combat tho, and everybody looks like a hooker
Can someone tell me the name or direct me towards a video of the song that starts at 6:20? I thought it was a WoW tavern theme, but I can't find it
You bring some very good points, I would say that for transmog, the only problem is the cash shop and not the system itself. If you worked hard on getting a super skin ingame but the item doesn't fit your build, I think it's nice if you could transmog it to an other item. To me, making a build is as enjoyable as finding the perfect appearance for my character so I like having options. But being able to buy skins with real money and having lvl 2 characters look better than endgame character is a big nope.
I agree on most issues but some does not really matter to be honest.
Black Desert Online
AFK time - From my recent min-maxing profit experiment for AFK time from opening my PC 24/7 I get less silver than killing monsters for 30 mins - 1 hour.
So my new strategy for the future gameplay is just grind for 1 hour (or 2 if i feel fit) then be done for the day unless i am working on my PC then i can turn on AFK mode and minimize the game to get some stuffs done (mostly for crafting materials for unique items not for profit)
Costume for Silver - Everyone in the game will be happy if someone does it.
Useless Items - This is a nightmare for new players (I have to manage and optimize my inventory so much until I dont see this as a problem anymore)
Alt Characters - While it is good these days for options to switch to other classes but still u will be limited by bag slots and max weight of that specific character.
Questing - ...... One of the most annoying thing in BDO, but hey at least they are trying to fix it even it may took ages.
Multiple Gear Sets - BDO only has 4 sets [AP ACC EVA DR] where 3 of them are really endgame
Catch up to old player - watch Streamer "Choice"
General UI - Keep playing and u will memorize every single one by default. no kidding most of them are very informative
Combat UI - it is very customizable .mine is very clean and minimal
Costumes - I think old design team is gone and the new one is doing a very good job at it.
The inventory thing... is one of the biggest reasons why I stopped playing GW2 and BDO (not the only reasons but one of the biggest reasons). I had sessions that were over an hour long in BDO just to sort out the items, decide which ones I should keep in my storage and which ones I should sell (which I never would've done if a friend wouldn't have helped me). It's almost like every single item is part of another feature in the game.
maybe its because i GW2 is my main MMO, but inventory was never a complaint to me. Quick button to auto deposit mats into your bank, sell junk to a vendor, and right click and break down all gear of X rarity and lower. you can buy specific bags that hold specific gear to keep it organized visually (idk how he or others play with the "one big bag" option, I have mine split so that all those different items are grouped together automatically). The only problem is there are a lot of items over the years that once the event is done, the item is useless. or so you assume. there are a bunch of items like that, especially if you're a long time player, where you're like, do i need this still? but thats as someone whos been playing since launch. not something a new player will have to deal with really.
@@hoofhearted4Yeah in GW2 it wasn't as bad as in BDO. But I remember at some point I had lots of different special items in my inventory and I didn't know what those items were for. Some of them are like you have to collect X amount of that item for it to be actually useable? Some items directed to an NPC I need to interact with, etc. Maybe that's the event stuff you were talking about 😅
@@hoofhearted4the very point you have to play the game with a specific bag option that is bought from the shop must show you there is an issue with the system.
But even ignoring that. What you describe is a chore. Store this, destroy that, store that... all things that you have learned to do mechanically. That is a chore. It's not a fun part of the game, it's something you have to do, for the sake of continuing. And even if it's not taking you that long... why do you have to do it?
But I have to say that I have also quit gw2 because of all the items and junk that is thrown in my inventory. I never reached far into the game and this was one of the main reasons why. Level up - items and boxes with items. Log in - items and boxes with items... and a lot of them as a fairly new player you have no idea of what to do with. Should I use this buff/boost now or store it for later, what are those packs, do I want to open them now and fill my bag and spend more time managing the inventory, or ignore them and proceed with the gameplay, what the f are those tokens, do I want to use this xp boost and level up just to get more "bonuses" and items as a "reward"... Then I hear people say "this or that game is bad because it has autoplay and it plays itself, just play gw2" and I think to myself, well when I play gw2 I level up without playing the game, so is it any different?
as a person who don't have much time playing games I had many cases where I log in start sorting things out in my inventory because of all the junk I was rewarded for logging in, and then I had to go and do adult stuff. without actually playing the game. And the next day when I think of logging in instead of getting exited for a login bonus, I get frustrated because of it, and I may not enter just so I don't have to deal with it.
The game itself is good, it's great even. But damn if those things are not frustrating. Devs nowadays forget that streamlining is usually the best approach and instead add a bunch of fillers that actually make a lot of people irritated.
@@IcoKirov can't say I really agree honestly. Why do we have to do those things? Because those things break down into crafting materials or things you can sell. Economy is a big part of GW2, as is crafting. Having bags that auto organize loot doesn't speak to the problem whatsoever. You don't have to, you can use the view Peon shows and the things I said will work all the same and clean out 75% of your inventory at least. The complaint just sounds like you legit don't want to have anything to do besides combat which is fine, but then MMOs aren't really a gaming genre for you. As for all the bonuses, it's not as complicated as you make it seem. Just use the boost. All the stuff you get at login isnt much and most is auto deposited because it's crafting mats. And for anything you don't know, I mean for any game this size and age you're going to have to spend some time researching and learning. Again if GW2 is complicated, MMOs might not be your thing. I'd say GW2 is an entry MMO.
@@PerionTermia haha yup. Those are from heart events where you were collecting something and you had some extra. Can just safely destroy them.
I played Blue Protocol for 6 days before getting banned and it was pretty fun. And you can't even trade with other players in that game, which is ridiculous. If developers actually want to make good MMOs that are fun to play, they definitely can - if they want to, that is.
Agree with all of your points, especially the transmog point. I really miss the days where I could look at someone and think his gear is cool asf, which in turn would make me want to take part of end game more
Can someone say what's the music in the background at 2:10 ?
That short GW2 shot in the first 2 mins where you are clicking on individual things to salvage hurt to see. There is an "auto-salvage all x tier of item" that is life saving.
Side note: If you do ever pick it up again, you should definitely try Bladesworn warrior for big dmg hits (100-200k from charge up attack) and try crafting a legendary.
Bladesworn sucks
You rarely get its dragon steel move to hit that hard AND it relies way too much on that move for damage, the gunblade is just a flow generator
Berserker and Spellbreaker are better
Agreed but even with auto-salvage there are a ton of items that still get backed up, or items that you dont know if you should sell or if they are even worth selling as there are a TON of items that just outright qualify as junk that arent even worth selling and yet they are hard to identify as to if or not you will need them later on.
And dont even get me started on the items that you cant even sell. like when you craft a component for an item but you realize dont have enough to craft the entire item and it will take you a long time to get all the materials, so you are stuck with that component or various components and cant sell them so they just pile up in your inventory.
Someone could tell me music Playing in 17:13 to 18:59? pls
I have to say I pretty much agree with every point that you made with the exceptions of world-building quests and NPC's talking. Great vid and great takes.
Agreed on Transmog.
I think the solution is to tie it to gear level. WoW already ties it to armor class, and player level. You have some good level 20 options, but not all the epics and endgame options for when you hit max level. Now if the current raid skins were locked behind having gear that is comparable in gear level to those raid skins, then you'd know that the current set of raid content can only be worn by players that are wearing gear strong enough for current raid tier. So they'd have to unlock the costume by finding it, and then they'd also have to be good enough at pvp or rich enough to buy BiS or literally pug and pray to rnjesus in order to be dressed in top tier current content.
...And hopefully the devs don't think recolours of old content is enough reward incentive for a whole new raid encounter.
Things you hate about MMOs could also be applied to Raid Shadowlegends :)
Seriously though, I got tired of Lost Ark especially figured I could just wait a few months and get powerpassed up instead of grinding.
I played BDO at launch for about six months, then returned about three months ago. It feels much better these days and progression is easier. Coming from Ultima Online at first, I disliked that in BDO I couldn’t sell my craftables directly to other players since it felt impersonal and removed RP opportunities… but I do agree it’s a good system considering the abuse of other systems.
Honestly, my favorite thing to do in BDO is just take my life skill tools and start randomly exploring a section of the world off of the main roads, finding rare gatherables or even a secret cave. Sure it’s not the most optimal game play in terms of silver, but with how seamless BDO is, the exploration is enjoyable.
Lmao. No hate, I know he needs to get paid and sponsors do that. But knowing I'm about to here a bunch of valid criticisms about games right after the same person reads an ad for raid shadow legends was funny and ironic.
I do like games where I can get lost in the world, instead of constantly checking a daily reset/boss timer/homework list thing.
I really need to take this approach myself, I keep coming back to BDO but get caught up in the grind for money and trying to be efficient at all times. I love the games atmosphere and I think I just need to slow down and not care about making lots of money or being efficient and just enjoy the game again. Especially since I'm not in a guild and play as a solo player so I don't pvp or anything.
"If I'm spending half of my playtime that I don't really find fun, then why am I playing in the first place?" Replace half with 90% and you just described Genshin Impact.
I do gotta say tho, these days AFK activities in BDO are very insignificant in comparison to actually grinding and doing active stuff. To the point that I really dont even feel the need to do it anymore. Out here grinding for over 1bil/hr and afk fishing overnight might make me like 5 minutes worth of grinding at BEST(including what workers would bring in overnight).
Should do a video picking out which mmorpgs have nailed a system the best.
This. I am very curious about this too. What I hear most from the mmo community is griping about games. But, what current games do what the gripers want? Not really calling Peon a griper, I have my annoyances with mmos too, but just curious what ppl are playing if they arent playing the games they are complaining about.
@@jwednesdaym hate sells better than praise.
For Inventory, STOP GIVING ME ITEMS I CAN ONLY DESTROY. I should be able to sell everything to some vendor for at least 1c ffs
Asmongold & Thelazypeon should definitely group up a dev team with piratesoftware and publsih their own MMO with all the pros and none of the cons.
subscription based MMOs are so difficult for me to get into. runescape and WoW are so much fun, but when i take a week off, i feel like i'm just wasting my money.
BDO really does well with the RMT situation by disabling player trading. You simply can't RMT silver without selling Pearl shop stuff. To make any reasonable amount of silver off that would be thousands of real money which is nuts. The price caps are amazing too, the whales can't own the market because you simply can't devalue stuff to oblivion like WoW or FFXIV.
They left a huge loop hole open for years. There was an epidemic of bot guilds filling guild banks with trillions of silver via sailing, then you paid on Venmo for a guild spot on guild payout days. Life finds a way. This route is significantly nerfed now, but that pretty much just grandfathers in people with a lifetime supply of silver. People are still dominating markets on the most valuable items with this botted silver.
The problem with disabling trading is some ppl like to buy stuff for their friends and give it to them. You might say fine just disable the ability to trade money, but even that doesnt stop gold selling. BDO in its early stages let you trade potions which gold sellers would just buy enmasse from npcs and then give you them to sell to get money. So they can just do that with any item and then you still have to monitor every item. Well what about adding a gift option? Gold sellers will exploit that as well or just straight up sell you the item for cheaper that it is on the cash shop. Theres no real win against gold sellers. You might as well hire a team of ppl to just ban accounts associated with them until the players base just outright stops buying from them. And you better hope they dont start taking handouts from gold sellers and lying about doing their jobs either lol.
Transmog issue would be easily solved by keeping it behind a playtime-wall, where it is only unlocked after reaching endgame so you can be sure they played through the mainstory and have a minimum ability and experience level to be expected.
Also helps keep the immersion from being constantly broken by others
Non-game specific videos are amazing when you cover them😊
The worst part about inventory management is that it's so much worse if you're a returning player and you forgot what half of the items are for and maybe are pointless now so u have no clue if u should keep it or not.
And the daily/timegate systems have been annoying me for a while now. I get it, it's the "fix" devs implemented to avoid having to put ridiculous grind in the game. Developers don't want players to finish all the new content in a few days and then stop playing. They used to implement crazy grinds so players would have to spend weeks or months getting everything but because players complained they had to find other ways to keep people playing. But honestly this daily timegate shit isn't the way. I rather deal with grind and have players who have more time get ahead of me than being locked out of progressing more when ifeel like playing.
About the quests & npcs talking though, i agree to some extent, however I think my favourite are when npcs have their dialogue while doing something like when they talk during gameplay or talk while going somewhere.
Remember the Lineage 2 first chronicles, where u knew from the beginning what armour is good for each lvl and grade, inventory only with materials and recipes ... simple game but with awesome mechanics. Vote for Lineage 3
C4 was pinacle
Throne and Liberty is basically sequal for L2, glad devs decided to change mechanics behind the combat, removing auto play + fixing the combat makes me excited about the game again. If Throne & Liberty fails, I'm going back to Lineage 2 again...private server.
Bro when i heard the music in the beginning, I got struck by nostalgia really hard😢
@@JustFaithless yeah man... LazyPeon uses alot of Lineage2 music in his videos... so everytime I hear it I just have to listen to the whole Soundtrack... Dion Village.. Gludin... man... good times.
@@sallee132 I hope so too... but I think Ashes of creation will take the cake
When was the last time Peon played a game for more than a week?
The only time you see him play something again is if it does any big updates..
Look at his video list.. no credibility anymore, just talking.
Regarding transmog, I think a lesser customization option would be ideal, something like a dye system that can be used on everything. Would allow some level of creativity and fashion, prevent every max level character of the same class from looking identical, but still allow any experienced player to ID a rough gear/power level at a glance.
Until gamers blame themselves for the stupidest request game communities make the devs do, it will never stop. Gamers ask for cosmetic items, skins, paint, and "X-ray" glasses....pointless items that you get board with after 5 min. They ask for 3v3 or instances thinking that would be amazing "end game" but the truth is gamers have no clue at all what "end game" content is.
End game needs to be something that keeps you AND your friends logging in EVERY DAY and give both of you an ADVENTURE! Not some pointless grind in an instance, 3vs3 pvp or some dumb x-ray glasses.
I won't even bother explain types of end game because the ignorance of gamers can't be cured by me until they or some big youtuber *cough cough* educated them on what end game content really is.
The fact that they’re metagamed to death 100%. Blind play throughs are harder to do without sheer willpower. I think back to Preach’s stuff.
Isn't that more so modern gaming in general? Every game has a meta, hell cookie clicker has a meta. Doesn't mean you have to adhere to it lmao.
I agree with everything except the transmog part. Usually the best sets in the game have overly complex fantasy design and I hate it. I don't care if I can see how strong you are the magic clothes needs to disappear anyway. Imagine if you had a pair of underpants that made you charismatic and a pair that made you intelligent. You'd need to shift underpants all the time depending on what you do. Stupid system. We have the technology to get rid of that someone just have to break the mmo making recepie and do it.
I like transmog when it's just about using other skins from inside the game that are still thematically appropriate. It's fun to be able to customize your character that way, and while I also understand the downside of not being able to see people's power level visually, I would say the pros outweigh the cons up to that point.
But where I draw the line is when people use transmog to use all kinds of bullshit skins that make no sense. I don't want to play dungeons with people that are naked, or in bikinis, pyjamas, all kinds of modern day clothes that break the medieval fantasy setting, etc. When transmog is widely used to destroy the visual atmosphere of a game, the game becomes about 80% less attractive to me.
I actually play games for the sake of story and I prefer when there are interesting conversations happening between characters like he showed in GW2. To me, it makes me feel immersed in the world and shows me the extent of creativity and attention to detail that devs can make. In contrast, every game that generally only focuses on combat gets dropped once there's no story attached to it anymore so that's just my view on it
Same Peon sure aint a pay attention kind of gamer thats for sure .
I'm on the same boat. While I understand that immersion, storytelling and worldbuilding isn't going to be for everyone, 9/10 times the people who'd complain about a game taking its story too seriously would also be the same people to ditch a game for laser-focusing on the gameplay and having no cohesive narrative structure to carry it, ironically citing that to be the very reason why they quit.
That said, MMOs should give you the option to skip dialogues and scripted NPC interactions for those who want to get straight to the action. Not an MMO, but I think Cyberpunk 2077 did a fantastic job at pulling that off.
Same here. That Is the main reason why I enjoyed swtor
Attention to detail is exactly what I get out of FFXIV. Literally everything has lore including the rocks and soil. The story is also one of the best I have seen in any RPG but I must say I like the way GW2 goes about their main story since you can do them cop-op no matter how far apart your level is from your friend.
games without story that is still being played after a long time: counter strike, minecraft, terraria, factorio, osu, dont starve, oxygen not included. dota, league, street fighter and tekken have story but most players are only there for the gameplay
You put LINEAGE 2 DION THEME as a background and I just wanna say I incredibly appreciate that. I have never heard a better soundtrack in any game since.
1:51 to skip raid shadow legends
This video should be minimum requirements to creating an MMORPG. Employee handbook type stuff.
Every time I feel like playing a mmo now a days I end up on Project 1999. Also reading isn’t bad… reading and stories build the world. They make the world alive. FF14 wouldn’t be half as good without the story.
Elder Scrolls Online is another game that literally requires addons to play. Fucking hate it so bad.
Man, I have to say that suggesting that more games should disable trading player to player is an awful suggestion. I know it can be used by gold sellers, but there are other ways around that that don't detract from other aspects of game enjoyment.
which mmo is he playing at 17:04?
Anything that lets players get gear even cosmetic, pisses me off, everything remotely cool should be hard to earn or earnable in the game, instantly ruins my immersion.
Woah! As the future indie dev (still studying in 12th grade senior high school), I'll take notes these aspects and lessons from your video to counteract the future issues of my future indie sandbox mmo combine with both roguelite-moba action combat system (inspired from Paragon, Hades, and Guild Wars 2) and sandbox building elements (inspired from Minecraft and Fortnite) to became innovative to and also unique from other existing mmos
Seriously love the idea of a dynamic skill system of sorts. Don't like seeing too many people having the same template builds.
dynamic or balanced, pick one.
I don't really agree with simply handwaving dynamic class / skill / equipment builds by saying "it won't be balanced". it's not the player's fault for minmaxing a build and getting away with it; it's the game's fault. why is your game's battle system so bland that one build can outshine every other?
give bosses different traits and behaviors. give a boss extremely high evasion so characters with high accuracy can shine. give mobs elemental resistance and weaknesses, and let the otherwise useless elemental skill shred a particular content with ease. make a boss resistant to ranged attacks, or weak to environmental traps, or immune to magical damage. create enemies that mobs in high numbers, or overwhelm you with extremely high crit bursts. let enemy units hit your backlines with debuffs, let bosses dispel buffs from your beefed up tank. make a certain boss weak to knockback/interrupt attacks. give enemy units different movement speed and attack speed. give rogues invisibility and archers / mages a detection ability to counter it. the list goes on
there's so much room for creativity in designing game mechanics aside from HP and damage. create a game with proper depth to its mechanics. let players builds their characters to excel in one particular instance, or be a jack-of-all-trades. the creative decision in designing a role playing game character should always be at the hands of the players, not the system's, for the sake of "balance".
what's the game at 02:23?
I could be wrong but I think Lotro has an option to disable the transmog system and only display the original gear on other characters.
That would be sick
Would love that in GW2
That’s what I loved about EverQuest, in the early days hardly anything dropped, and if you did get a drop it was something like bone chips which you really needed for a pet cast or a flask of water etc stuff you really needed.
For me the biggest problem of most MMO's is that they are just bloated with so many features that people expect nowadays, there's like zero level of immersion. Playing Classic Wow for the first time several months ago just made me realize how much more magical it can be when it really feels like a totally different enormous world... and you only know what Elwynn Forest looks like.
Great vid. A lot of my own sentiments are reflected in here. I recently went back to WoW, just to try Hardcore, and while it did scratch the nostalgia itch, I was also reminded of some of the nigh inescapable aspects I don't like about current MMORPGs.
The limited bag system did make it really exciting when I found a bag drop, but the amount of quest items alone that clutter your very limited inventory was very annoying. Made me want at least a separate tab just for those. And seeing how many people were using Addons that guided them through the game, kind of felt like it negated the whole exploration aspect.
I also just really wish these games would pay more attention to the issues with bots and gold sellers and ban them, but it feels like to pad numbers and puff up subs, they're here to stay. And if a game touts being able to be AFK/Idle to play, then what is even the point of playing?
An issue I dislike that I didn't see brought up, was an abundance of systems within the games. I think this is more egregious for Asian MMOs, but having multiple levels of upgrades that you need to farm and manage for weapons and gear and skills, just gets so overwhelming and tedious it turns me right off. Especially if they are selling you the solutions of not having enough materials or having materials and/or items break during the process of utilizing the system.
Transmog is "easy to fix":
- Only allow the use of transmog in town
or
- It's an option, where you can turn on / off
As a dev, I can say it's not that hard to implement.
Your point about just "wanting to get back into the gameplay" specifically in regards to FF14 is fucking asinine, as the dual focuses of any Final Fantasy have been gameplay and story. You don't like story? Play a different game.
Ive been playing FFXIV for the past year and compared the problems you described and how I see them in FFXIV.
It checks most of the boxes for a good design with good implementation for most of the problems a MMO can have.
Questing probably being the most abnoxious for who don't care about it since the main story quest is huge and mandatory.
Very nice video, great points.
Yeah but FFXIV is mostly an FF game with an mmo skin.
Some people simply do not like that genre like people who can see good designs on games like racing games yet still acknowledge it's not their style.
I like ff14 but you can play it like a normal JRPG ^^
Would love a follow up to this titled "Things I Love About MMORPGs"
The way these videos are edited is really well presented.
10:18 which game ?
A cool part concept of an MMO is starting with nothing and being nothing. Everything you do has meaning like professions can help your journey from start to finish and where the world is big, mysterious and has many cool things in it. I like when everything has weight to it. Like if i see some guy running past and he has a cool helmet or shoulders I want to know where that came from and it was not bought in a store or he just got it because he was in the game for 10 hours straight. I want the world to also feel dangerous and difficult.
Lineage 2 music. Nice pick 👍
I hope you do know that you can right click salvage kit in GW2, salvage all your loot by rarity and then send materials to bank with another button. It takes like 5 seconds.
Why is the salvagable item exist in the first place and not instantly material?
I think this just ties into his point like in like in Lost Ark where you can potentially get very good items from chaos dungeon runs, but you still have to sort out what is good and what is bad before you can salvage everything else. Thus, it's not a 5 second solution anymore.
@@ralph7704 Because of Mystic Forge.
hey can I ask what music names you add in your video it's so good :(
TWO things I absolutely HATE in mmo's:
1. SHAKY CAMERA- every hit and your screen shakes, like so many stupid movies accentuate action by shaking the camera that is doing the recording. I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. BRIGHT FLASHES- every hit and the entire screen flashes one or more colors, it's a loser, like the shaky camera crap
and to a lesser extent:
3. OBNOXIOUS COMBAT ANIMATION- is it really realistic you can swing a weapon that weighs more than you do, 157,000 miles per hour thru the air? so lame, seems infantile to me, again, lazy devs pulling cheap loser moves, because if they don't, the action looks dead and boring, so hey, lets make everything explode 5 times every second! yeah! or better, 10 times per second! YEAH! MORE! MORE! MORE!
Your counting skills need work :)
I agree though. I miss the days of tab target combat with sensible, yet satisfying animations. I really don't understand why people like all the bright, flashy and over-the-top combat in games. There's zero feeling of weight to the animations because it's all clearly unphysical.
I hate to be playing for a few hours without needing help from strangers.
MMOs once used to bring strangers together instead of driving them away. Now every user walking nearby is either Competition, a Threat, or a Ghost.
It's a virtual world full of people:
Why not promote more meaningful interactions between them? Anything other than raid queues, PvP queues, or joining random guilds just for profit.
MMOs today are too easy and input-heavy, so there's no reason for users to join up with random players nearby, much less to say "hello" or stop grinding to reply to a simple greeting.
02:00 Ahh man.. why do you have to hit me like that... Hunters Village, Lineage 2 soundtrack, chills ran down my spine. I miss this game so much, so many great memories.... the best game I have EVER played in my life
One turn-off for me that is not mentioned is "fair play" in MMO when interaction between players limited with 5vs5 arenas of some sort or even worse - players are equalized to same level - second thing takes out the feel of progression, why spend hundreds of hours to gain experience if it gives nothing? And the first thing takes MM aspect from MMO - if I would like fair fight I would go to LOL or DOTA, where everyone start ate the same time, on the same level with same amount of team members, in Massive Multiplayer game I would like that interacting with other players would be beneficial - If you can gather a group of 20 players and opposing team not - it is their problem, get good in social interaction or overcome it with overleveled character. More over when you are not limited on group/party/guild size there is less discrimination of not-meta-build players, because numbers matters, because experience matters.
@TheLazyPeon You basically just described MMORPGs. What do you LIKE about MMORPGs? (Or is that the next video?)
Honestly, I think you and many other MMORPG fans are just getting older and games just don’t hold the same appeal as they used to because you can see behind the curtain. You’ve lost your youthful sense of wonder; your willing suspension of disbelief. Those days are just gone, unfortunately.
16:36 game name?
16:04 What game is that? :)
Gear in PVP. Makes it so no mmo never will be able to be good pvp game. Have an arena mode where you get all the skills and gear you need and go at it, like lost ark. Just a shame you have to be max level to pvp in that game.
Using a transmogrification system to deliberately dress in the cheapest, most pitiful manner possible is my perpetual indulgence.
There's nothing like running into a battle, armed in tattered leather with a simple, unadorned wooden bow and one-shotting unskilled cash-shoppers in their glittering robes and angel wings, while the proud veterans in gleaming metal smirk at the idea that I could keep pace.
I've always found the Strider/Aaragorn, Kisuke Urahara, etc, trope of masking your strength under a veneer of humility far more appealing than any amount of gaudy regalia.
Levelscaling! I understand it can be needed to play with your friends...but for me it removes all purpose of lvl
ing...it seems all mmo's turning into these scalings these days. It makes me sad.
whats the game from the footage while you talk about pros of transmog?
Maybe it is time to try another type of games, do you like fps?
I remember back before transmog, the gear you had equipped told a tale of where you have been and who or what monsters you have defeated. I wish transmog didn’t exist, the best looking gear should be the hardest to obtain in game. Luckily old school RuneScape does this, but you can still just buy bonds.
I don’t think removing a cash shop will help the game though, jagex had no choice because so many people were being scammed that credit card companies were about to start declining anything related to jagex. At one point jagex had to restrict free trade entirely because of this. Jagex gives a means of buying gold without being scammed or giving your card to shady Chinese farming companies. I think the selling gold is a win for both sides in this respect.
But what happens when I prefer the look of the lvl 1 Basic Sword and think the max lvl 50 Dragon Buster looks like ass?
New World bank management is the one picking my nerves right now. The amount of time I spend switching between city tabs looking for my green wood. It's nicer since they allow you to access all of the cities tab from anywhere but honestly at this point make one section for Items/Gear and one section for material that can be accessible automatically from the crafting stations. (I'm not max level yet or have a house so idk if it's better later on).
Hi , I have a little suggestion for a next vod. You have given several examples of bad characteristics of MMORPGs and some examples of how to avoid these problems, but I think it would be interesting examples of MMORPGs that do these characteristics right, not just the names like you do but a little bit more depth.
Love your content and thanks again for sharing it.
One way to solve the cons of transmog would be to make a sort of armour "adornment" system. Granted, it'd require a lot more work from the devs (and that's likely why it's not done).
I believe that an optimal system wouldn't allow for swapping the looks of one gear piece into another, but would have quite an extensive system of addons - things that you can tack onto your armour to add your personal touch, i.e: different capes, tabards, bags, pouches, bandoliers, belts, buckles, jewelry, fur, chains, cosmetic potions bottles, scrolls etc. etc.
If each piece of armour was customisable enough (especially if all of that was mixed with armour dyeing system), it'd nearly entirely nullify the need for transmog, and the players would have both the personalised outfits, and the ability to look at a player and see their power level (the Legendary Dragonscale Titanforged Armour will still be the Legendary Dragonscale Titanforged Armour at a glance, even if you tack on a heap of belts and buckles onto it).
EDIT: Bonus points if it's tied to gear progression, so that new types (or unique pieces when it comes to legendary stuff) of armour unlock bits and baubles that you can put on your other armour. I.e: if you unlock the aforementioned Legendary Dragonscale Titanforged Armour, now you can adorn your other armours with a bit of titanforged dragonscale etc.
That should keep the system fresh and loot rewarding.
Imagine getting Silkroad with new engine and updated graphics/gameplay? I always liked the idea of trades and the job system thief/trader/hunter
Archeage had it. Though you do have Albion Online if you're interested in something similar where those trades have actual influence on the game. The idea of trading is fun, unless you did it efficiently and didn't have to deal with griefers or the mountains of gankers.
What is the piano piece at the end part of the video??
That L2 soundtrack is sooo fkin good & nostalgic
Did he just hit us with an Ultima song at 4:00 ? lol
Did you ever play Tibia Peon?