The season struggles not only with setting up the plot but also with weak characterization, particularly for Rhaenyra and the Blacks. They come off less like real, nuanced characters and more like typical, overly virtuous protagonists. It's disappointing, especially considering HBO's success with Succession, where no character is truly "good," yet it's incredibly compelling.
The setup was not at all the issue. It was the wasted time on nonsense characters like Lohar which could have been done in 5 minutes. Then the call back to GOT S8, and the fact that Helena literally just drops spoilers, no explanation for Otto being in jail and then Daemon… after seeing a vision just realizing he is just a cog in a wheel and so he must stay loyal. So much for character arcs… and THEN the idiocy of doing this romance plot between Rhaneyra and Alicent, Alicent claiming to trade Aegons head for war when she was literally asking for Rhanearas sons eye. Like yeh suuuure that makes so much sense.
Not terrible, but not worth the two year wait. Unimportant things got way too much focus while better storylines felt rushed. I actually think they could have pulled off everything in eight episodes, but too much was padded out like Daemon, over six or seven episodes when two or three would have been enough. They also had a hard time balancing character development with story development.
Lack of action isn’t the issue. It’s the lack of common sense, urgency and agency when it comes to the writing. Not much happens in the first few seasons of thrones, but it’s so compelling because the writing and characters made it what it was. Hotd season 2 made every character an idiot. It’s a slap in the face to not only book readers but also casual audiences. It’s pretty sad when the season season of rings of power has more things happening in its first 3 episodes than the entirety of house of the dragon.
Bad... We can see a really irritating trend with modern TV where it purposefully dumbs down everything. To a certain extent, this is normal and necessary, as we cannot 100% adapt a book with a hundred characters with the budget and time restrictions, so cuts are gonna be made. However, it's very clear that the characters lack serious complexity at this point. It started with the weird and unfitting blackwashing of characters (all while cool diverse characters from the book were cut entirely), and it ended with Alicent Hightower asking for peace which is frankly a nutter idea only someone who doesn't read could have come up with. Alicent Hightower isn't Rhaenyra's friend, never was and never will be. She is cunning, manipulative, and she threatens the Blacks even when she loses King's Landing. The show runners are reducing these two women to "war bad" and it's borderline exhausting. Women can be flawed. Women can make choices. Hell, women can be violent. Just give us the bloody war and give the characters their flaws back.
I agree with others in that it feels like they wrote a 10 episode season, but then HBO told them that they can only shoot 8, thats why there is no climactic ending. I also agree that Daemon and Aegon being absent from the main cast hurt the experience, their dynamics with others were too fun for them to be cast aside like that (and Otto as well). *spoilers for last episode* I feel like Daemon's whole Harrenhall arc of self reflection kind of got invalidated or at least put into question by the final vision.. Now we dont know whether he made his final decision due to his change of character or simply because he saw a profound spoiler vision of the future that is impossible to ignore and is now going to be the S8 Jon Snow type of character with "i dont want it, she is my queen" motivation. Like, even in the last episode we see him entertaining the idea of betraying Rhaenyra when her envoy floated the idea, so I wonder would he still bend the knee if he didnt see the final vision? Now we will never know. It would've made his arc more meaningful if he made that decision on his own. Also, a nitpick but i am wondering how did Larys managed to get Aegon out of his room , out of the Red Keep and into a wagon.... Did he placed him in a box again, but then it would require at least a few people to carry it out of the room which would be hella sus for nobody to notice.
It's nothing like that.. The major concerns that the showrunners had were the writer's strike and the overall budget for the season. It felt like that the season was short of 1 more big battle / action scene because they actually had limited budget and run time to cover an upcoming battle in the story... Due to the strike they had challenges in adapting per episode script during the course of the production... (src - talking thrones channel)
Damn I didnt even realize this video only has 700 views. Your editing is great, i honestly thought you would be way bigger than you are. Good video i hope you get more viewers 👍
Been watching you for a while, but since it's the first time I hear you talk about this show I would like to know if you have knowledge of the source material? (more specifically the book Fire and Blood). Because a lot of stuff that people don't like about this season and it's structure I think are directly linked to the structure of the source material and I could speak about it when giving my thoughts. Or I could just talk about the show by itself. Just wanted to ask first.
@@ragelmatt good, just wanted to be sure, thanks👍 I'll say it whithout spoiling or delving too deep but basically the source material has the least details about this season's content in particolar and many characters simply aren't mentioned or do very little in it that isn't more than a quick mention. Which meant the show had to invent new plots and scenes to keep the main characters occupied while the ones that had stuff written for them were doing their things (mainly Alicent and Rhaenyra suffer from this). This is the opposite of the first season, which considering it covered 20 years of history it had way more source material but had to cut a good portion of it due to the necessary timeskips. Overall I much prefer this season's pacing for that reason. Plus, a lot of the scenes they've added or changed are quite to my liking. Hugh Hammer might be the single most elevated character by the adaptation, even more than Viserys was in season 1. For the show itself I do agree with your takes mostly. Daemon stuff is fantastic and the most ASOIAF thing we ever got on screen, even more than in GOT. Criston, Aegon and Larys are fantasticly performed and way more interesting. All the younger characters in general are way better. Rook's Rest is the best dragon fight in media. Otto steals the show in two episodes. Dragonseed are way better and the dragon designs for Silverwing and Vermithor are my favorites so far. The con is that Alicent and Rhaenyra get a reduced role compared to season 1, but if you knew the book as I did you would have expected even less to be honest. I like this season just as much as season 1, which means I adored it and I CAN wait for more. Because I know they did close to their best with what they had and they'll need time for sure for what's ahead.
Saw your comment and just wanted to say that the structure of this particular source material will always have people up in arms, as it's a really clever take on "flawed" history. Basically, it's a maester collecting historical accounts from bystanders, sometimes somewhat reliable sources, and sometimes downright crazy people. It all paints a really good picture of the civil war, but it's all tainted by opinion and politics. It's a fantastic book that's really hard to adapt, so no matter how they adapt it, it would always be flawed and disliked to some extend as people interpret the accounts differently. I personally was always hoping for them to do two shows that show the same war, but leaning towards different sides, like the chinese TV shows 延禧攻略 and 如懿传 do (same historical accounts, but with a different main character and things happen for different reasons). But, unfortunately, that won't happen. The problem with this show adaptation is similar to the Hobbit btw. They leave out a lot of good things from the book, but then they make up random things. They race swapped a lot of white characters and then purposefully left out cool black characters, which also doesn't contribute well to the quality. They made Alicent Hightower around 10 years younger than she actually is, and they are trying to portray her and Rhaenyra in this "war bad" approach that really isn't accurate for either of those two women. It feels like they are dragging things out to milk for money instead of just portraying a fast-paced civil war, led by flawed people who crave war. It feels dumbed down and diversified, just a strange show overall.
It was brilliant... How they showed woman's in childbed; man at war doing what they must... The dialogues were phenomenal compared to the 2nd season and the characters had actual depth outside of Criston Cole 🤣
@@1eukemi4 "What are children but a weakness" - This one holds everything GOT held in its dialogues. But I agree on season 2... Horribly written in every way not just the dialogues but the characters and storywise.
The season struggles not only with setting up the plot but also with weak characterization, particularly for Rhaenyra and the Blacks. They come off less like real, nuanced characters and more like typical, overly virtuous protagonists. It's disappointing, especially considering HBO's success with Succession, where no character is truly "good," yet it's incredibly compelling.
The setup was not at all the issue. It was the wasted time on nonsense characters like Lohar which could have been done in 5 minutes. Then the call back to GOT S8, and the fact that Helena literally just drops spoilers, no explanation for Otto being in jail and then Daemon… after seeing a vision just realizing he is just a cog in a wheel and so he must stay loyal. So much for character arcs… and THEN the idiocy of doing this romance plot between Rhaneyra and Alicent, Alicent claiming to trade Aegons head for war when she was literally asking for Rhanearas sons eye. Like yeh suuuure that makes so much sense.
Not terrible, but not worth the two year wait. Unimportant things got way too much focus while better storylines felt rushed. I actually think they could have pulled off everything in eight episodes, but too much was padded out like Daemon, over six or seven episodes when two or three would have been enough. They also had a hard time balancing character development with story development.
Lack of action isn’t the issue. It’s the lack of common sense, urgency and agency when it comes to the writing. Not much happens in the first few seasons of thrones, but it’s so compelling because the writing and characters made it what it was. Hotd season 2 made every character an idiot. It’s a slap in the face to not only book readers but also casual audiences. It’s pretty sad when the season season of rings of power has more things happening in its first 3 episodes than the entirety of house of the dragon.
Season 2 was a lot? Didnt seem that way to me, they barely had anything.
Bad... We can see a really irritating trend with modern TV where it purposefully dumbs down everything. To a certain extent, this is normal and necessary, as we cannot 100% adapt a book with a hundred characters with the budget and time restrictions, so cuts are gonna be made. However, it's very clear that the characters lack serious complexity at this point. It started with the weird and unfitting blackwashing of characters (all while cool diverse characters from the book were cut entirely), and it ended with Alicent Hightower asking for peace which is frankly a nutter idea only someone who doesn't read could have come up with. Alicent Hightower isn't Rhaenyra's friend, never was and never will be. She is cunning, manipulative, and she threatens the Blacks even when she loses King's Landing. The show runners are reducing these two women to "war bad" and it's borderline exhausting. Women can be flawed. Women can make choices. Hell, women can be violent. Just give us the bloody war and give the characters their flaws back.
I agree with others in that it feels like they wrote a 10 episode season, but then HBO told them that they can only shoot 8, thats why there is no climactic ending. I also agree that Daemon and Aegon being absent from the main cast hurt the experience, their dynamics with others were too fun for them to be cast aside like that (and Otto as well).
*spoilers for last episode*
I feel like Daemon's whole Harrenhall arc of self reflection kind of got invalidated or at least put into question by the final vision.. Now we dont know whether he made his final decision due to his change of character or simply because he saw a profound spoiler vision of the future that is impossible to ignore and is now going to be the S8 Jon Snow type of character with "i dont want it, she is my queen" motivation. Like, even in the last episode we see him entertaining the idea of betraying Rhaenyra when her envoy floated the idea, so I wonder would he still bend the knee if he didnt see the final vision? Now we will never know. It would've made his arc more meaningful if he made that decision on his own.
Also, a nitpick but i am wondering how did Larys managed to get Aegon out of his room , out of the Red Keep and into a wagon.... Did he placed him in a box again, but then it would require at least a few people to carry it out of the room which would be hella sus for nobody to notice.
Obviously Larys used teleportation magic, duh!
It's nothing like that.. The major concerns that the showrunners had were the writer's strike and the overall budget for the season.
It felt like that the season was short of 1 more big battle / action scene because they actually had limited budget and run time to cover an upcoming battle in the story... Due to the strike they had challenges in adapting per episode script during the course of the production...
(src - talking thrones channel)
I loved a lot of the dialogue this szn. I think with time ppl will remember the good more after the disappointing ending anger subsides.
Damn I didnt even realize this video only has 700 views. Your editing is great, i honestly thought you would be way bigger than you are. Good video i hope you get more viewers 👍
Been watching you for a while, but since it's the first time I hear you talk about this show I would like to know if you have knowledge of the source material? (more specifically the book Fire and Blood).
Because a lot of stuff that people don't like about this season and it's structure I think are directly linked to the structure of the source material and I could speak about it when giving my thoughts.
Or I could just talk about the show by itself.
Just wanted to ask first.
I have not read Fire & Blood, but the only thing I do know is that it's somewhat written like a history book as opposed to a traditional novel.
@@ragelmatt good, just wanted to be sure, thanks👍
I'll say it whithout spoiling or delving too deep but basically the source material has the least details about this season's content in particolar and many characters simply aren't mentioned or do very little in it that isn't more than a quick mention.
Which meant the show had to invent new plots and scenes to keep the main characters occupied while the ones that had stuff written for them were doing their things (mainly Alicent and Rhaenyra suffer from this).
This is the opposite of the first season, which considering it covered 20 years of history it had way more source material but had to cut a good portion of it due to the necessary timeskips.
Overall I much prefer this season's pacing for that reason.
Plus, a lot of the scenes they've added or changed are quite to my liking.
Hugh Hammer might be the single most elevated character by the adaptation, even more than Viserys was in season 1.
For the show itself I do agree with your takes mostly.
Daemon stuff is fantastic and the most ASOIAF thing we ever got on screen, even more than in GOT.
Criston, Aegon and Larys are fantasticly performed and way more interesting.
All the younger characters in general are way better.
Rook's Rest is the best dragon fight in media.
Otto steals the show in two episodes.
Dragonseed are way better and the dragon designs for Silverwing and Vermithor are my favorites so far.
The con is that Alicent and Rhaenyra get a reduced role compared to season 1, but if you knew the book as I did you would have expected even less to be honest.
I like this season just as much as season 1, which means I adored it and I CAN wait for more.
Because I know they did close to their best with what they had and they'll need time for sure for what's ahead.
Saw your comment and just wanted to say that the structure of this particular source material will always have people up in arms, as it's a really clever take on "flawed" history. Basically, it's a maester collecting historical accounts from bystanders, sometimes somewhat reliable sources, and sometimes downright crazy people. It all paints a really good picture of the civil war, but it's all tainted by opinion and politics. It's a fantastic book that's really hard to adapt, so no matter how they adapt it, it would always be flawed and disliked to some extend as people interpret the accounts differently.
I personally was always hoping for them to do two shows that show the same war, but leaning towards different sides, like the chinese TV shows 延禧攻略 and 如懿传 do (same historical accounts, but with a different main character and things happen for different reasons). But, unfortunately, that won't happen.
The problem with this show adaptation is similar to the Hobbit btw. They leave out a lot of good things from the book, but then they make up random things. They race swapped a lot of white characters and then purposefully left out cool black characters, which also doesn't contribute well to the quality. They made Alicent Hightower around 10 years younger than she actually is, and they are trying to portray her and Rhaenyra in this "war bad" approach that really isn't accurate for either of those two women. It feels like they are dragging things out to milk for money instead of just portraying a fast-paced civil war, led by flawed people who crave war. It feels dumbed down and diversified, just a strange show overall.
Eve Best may be the Charles Dance of the show: Gone before it got bad.
Not bad, but I had the hope that it'd be spectacular. Trying to be cautiously optimistic about Season 3 now.
You forgot to talk about Alicent. I love her relationship with her childrens and didn't like with Rhaenyra
we all think its bad
I don't even think season 1 was that good. It was incredibly slow and only paid off the last 2 or 3 episodes
It was brilliant... How they showed woman's in childbed; man at war doing what they must... The dialogues were phenomenal compared to the 2nd season and the characters had actual depth outside of Criston Cole 🤣
@@Hear.myvoice the dialogue was mediocre compared to GoT
@@1eukemi4 "What are children but a weakness" - This one holds everything GOT held in its dialogues.
But I agree on season 2... Horribly written in every way not just the dialogues but the characters and storywise.