What I like about Duel for Middle Earth is that the rules are streamlined such that they’re much more intuitive and easier to remember. With 7WD + Pantheon I frequently needed to reread some of the rules if it had been a while since we last played. Things like yellow cards, how much missing resources cost, and how the pantheon placement and drafting worked.
I really liked how you broke the comparison down for us as I had made some assumptions that were incorrect. For example, I assumed the landmark tiles were like the wonders when it makes more sense that they're like the Pantheon cards. I also liked that you pointed out that the map is like Agora (I don't have that expansion so I didn't realize this)... Unfortunately, I'm still on the fence. I really like the idea of adding an area control/majority mechanism into the game instead of the silly points victory, but I also get the sense that DfME has streamlined too much, that it's too simple (I kind of like that the coin costs are simpler, but are they too simple?). I also didn't realize that Agora added area control/majority. I wonder now if instead of this I should get Agora instead. I know, you didn't care for it as a lot of people didn't, but maybe it's better for area control/majority fans like myself. I just re-watched Zee's review on Agora and while he liked it (8.5), it seems like it adds so much that it might be too much.
What adds complexity to this new version of the game is the Alliance powers replacing the science cards. There are so many more powers to grab and ways to assure you get what you're looking for to help you're strategy. So even if you're not going after alliance victory, there are many good alliance powers to gain that help diversify the kind of strategies you can take against your opponent. What I find cool is that the two alliance cards that only pop up in 3rd age, Wizard and Ent, have really strong broken one time use powers. It's hard to collect two of the same in that age, however, if you manage to make it so that your third different alliance card collected is one of those two, then that means you guarantee to draft one of their powers, such as destroying one of your opponents landmark, which is huge in the end game. And I know the area control map seem too simple, but what adds a little layer of complexity is moving your army. When you get to the end game and it's looking like a stalemate on all front, then you're looking at who has the most presence on the map. So you have to think carefully about what regions to fortify to either anticipate an attack or to charge the right adjacent region. And it's usually a really tight race/close game if you get to this stage, which is exciting, but also more bitter way of losing because of how close things are. This version of duels makes the game feel less like a race to build a civilization/economy against a rival, and more like tempo battle for control
I now have both Duel games but am still looking for players for Duel for Middle Earth. I appreciate your video comparison between the two Duels because your video is the first comparison video that provided the perspective that the reimplementation is actually based on the 7 Wonders Duel with expansions. Great perspective. By the way, I happen to love the Agora expansion. It feels like a game within a game in a good way. When I played the other expansion (Pantheon) on Board Game Arena I didn’t really get into it so decided not to purchase that expansion set. I’m thinking Middle Earth will come to the table more frequently because of the simpler rules and will be easier to teach others. Plus I’m a big LOTR fan! Will there be expansion sets for Middle Earth? My gut feeling is yes.
Both designers are on record as saying there will not be any expansions for Duel for the Middle Earth. They said they consider this a complete game. However, there is definitely money to be made with expansions. Lots of money. So we'll see.
So the race track is just that, a race track... the 7WD version is a push/pull mechanic, seems like a major difference and I think I prefer the 7WD implementation.
After a few plays, I can say the race track is actually the new piece replacing the old go to scoring points end game. The board with the 7 regions is like the old military track. The units cancel out in a similar way to my push cancels your push. Except now there's an extra layer of geography so they only cancel out if they're in the same region, compared to a push is push. It used to be net 8 or 9 pushes more than the opponent to win, where as now it's 7 units in the right places to win.
@Duxa_ No, the influence markers on the senate board accumulate rather than canceling out, so moving them from chamber to chamber has a much different effect. If you have no units, the movement cards in Chapter 3 don't do anything, while you can take influence markers from chambers you trail in and consolidate them elsewhere. This is a good example of "area control" as compared to "area majority".
It will be very difficult to replace 7WD with both expansions at the same time, but it will bring more adventure theme to the game. I think this is for those who like Panthon but not Agora that much. I will rank them like this: 6. 7WD base game 5. 7WD base game + Pantheon 4. 7WD base game + Agora 3. Lord of the Rings: Duel for Middle Earth 2. 7WD base game + Pantheon + Agora 1. 7WD base game + Pantheon + Agora (play with "Guild" cards instead of "Grand Temple" cards from Pantheon) Because it brings much more tension at the end and it's much more interesting for playing and scoring)
And thus continues the trend of publishers releasing reimplementations/1.5 versions of games that make improvements from the original base game, but perhaps don’t offer as much as the original + expansions, at least until they get their own expansions. E.g., Raiders of Scythia, Dune Imperium Uprising, Clank! in Space, Everdell Farshore, etc.
I played base 7WD a few weeks ago in person after only playing it on BGA for a while and realised I never wanted to play in person again. Calculating how much cards costs is so fiddly in 7WD because of the prices changing based on what your opponent is producing.
True, but I'm sorta the other way. Playing on BGA feels too "easy" and takes some of the fun out of the game for me. I generally prefer it on the table, which isn't true for all games.
We have 7 Wonders Duel with no expansions. I will get this, immediately. The theme and the art got me like 90% there, and your description sealed the deal.
7 Wonders Duel with the Pantheon expansion is very very good. If this one is on that level and ..not the same (mechanic-wise) it is an auto buy for me.
I love seven wonders duel but I really didn't care for this new version. I appreciate the streamlining but it just didn't hook me. The combat map felt fidgety to me.
Love your content ❤ But I have exactly the same feelings. Base game Lotr vs 7W, Lotr is better. But because Panteon exists, 7 wonders have more options, is more competitive, it's just better. Lord of the rings duel for the middle earth needs expansion, to get to that level of the gameplay. I own both games and definitely 7 wonders is one of my favourite games of all time. I just hope they will make me feel about Lotr the same way. Thank you.
I really like the Lotr theme and the area control but i dont like 2 things: 1. The Cards have no names. That takes a lot From the theme 2. I think the money economy in 7 wonders is better an i like it more. I will Stick to 7 wonders for Now Great Review and great Video as always.
I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone with this one. Never have I been so blindsided, so utterly disappointed in a game, as I am by this. It's crazy how disconnected I'm feeling from what seems to be a consensus. To me this is almost a strict downgrade (it would be, if not for a few visual stuff about the game, which does look amazing), mechanics wise, it's baffling to me. I don't get people praising how this solves some supposed "bureaucratic" rules from the original. Apparently trading was too hard? Really? The game is not 7 Wonders Duel 1.5, it's "My Little 7 Wonders Duel", or "My First 7 Wonders Duel", it's dumbed down beyond recognition. I've played the game 8 times in 2 days, and it's already boring beyond belief. I used the opportunity to play 7WD again a few times, since it had been a while since I had done it, and I instantly confirmed my suspicions: there's a reason 7WD has been on top 100s and top 10s of so many people even after almost 10 years of its release, the game is elegant, "simple" but not "dumb", extremely replayable. Between the wonders, the guild cards, and different paths to score points (while having the military and science victory as a side thing), you can revisit again and again. People may call me crazy right now, but if I had to bet my life on this, I would: Mark my words, people will flock to this, and in the next top 100s of a lot of people, they will have replaced 7wd with this. But in time, people will realize how insanely weak this game actually is, and go back to the OG.
I don't get it- I don't get The Draft of the Rings. I don't get The Economy of the Rings. I don't get The Area Control of the Rings. I also don't get how any flimsy standalone repackage could possibly compete with the two player perfection that is 7 Wonders Duel with Agora and Pantheon (p.s Agora is the better of the two expansions imho, but both hang together wonderfully to create a breathtaking 45min epic, each and every time.)
It is quick, simple and very thematic, with good tension. I haven't played both, but watched playthroughs of both and I prefer lotr, because it is easier, quicker but still with enough tension to make it fun. I honestly don't really like 7wduel playthroughs, they just seem too complicated . I prefer a bit easier and quicker game, but I do understand that people prefer the 7wduel with expansions who like a bit deeper games.
Agreed 100% Base game to Base game, Duel for Middle Earth wins, no contest. This is a 9/10 for me straight out of the box. 7 Wonders duel (base game) is a 7/10, but it reaches 9/10 as well once you add the expansions (I love Agora personally more than Pantheon, I feel that Guilds in pantheon are super boring even though the rest of the expansion is great).
What I like about Duel for Middle Earth is that the rules are streamlined such that they’re much more intuitive and easier to remember.
With 7WD + Pantheon I frequently needed to reread some of the rules if it had been a while since we last played. Things like yellow cards, how much missing resources cost, and how the pantheon placement and drafting worked.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ll be getting this to the table soon. Hope you had a great day.
I really liked how you broke the comparison down for us as I had made some assumptions that were incorrect. For example, I assumed the landmark tiles were like the wonders when it makes more sense that they're like the Pantheon cards. I also liked that you pointed out that the map is like Agora (I don't have that expansion so I didn't realize this)... Unfortunately, I'm still on the fence. I really like the idea of adding an area control/majority mechanism into the game instead of the silly points victory, but I also get the sense that DfME has streamlined too much, that it's too simple (I kind of like that the coin costs are simpler, but are they too simple?). I also didn't realize that Agora added area control/majority. I wonder now if instead of this I should get Agora instead. I know, you didn't care for it as a lot of people didn't, but maybe it's better for area control/majority fans like myself. I just re-watched Zee's review on Agora and while he liked it (8.5), it seems like it adds so much that it might be too much.
For me personally the are majority element is just annoying. Too simple but at the same time you have to engage with what is such a boring element
@@ilqrd.6608 Are you talking about Agora or DfME?
@@kq76 Middle Earth
What adds complexity to this new version of the game is the Alliance powers replacing the science cards.
There are so many more powers to grab and ways to assure you get what you're looking for to help you're strategy. So even if you're not going after alliance victory, there are many good alliance powers to gain that help diversify the kind of strategies you can take against your opponent.
What I find cool is that the two alliance cards that only pop up in 3rd age, Wizard and Ent, have really strong broken one time use powers. It's hard to collect two of the same in that age, however, if you manage to make it so that your third different alliance card collected is one of those two, then that means you guarantee to draft one of their powers, such as destroying one of your opponents landmark, which is huge in the end game.
And I know the area control map seem too simple, but what adds a little layer of complexity is moving your army. When you get to the end game and it's looking like a stalemate on all front, then you're looking at who has the most presence on the map. So you have to think carefully about what regions to fortify to either anticipate an attack or to charge the right adjacent region. And it's usually a really tight race/close game if you get to this stage, which is exciting, but also more bitter way of losing because of how close things are.
This version of duels makes the game feel less like a race to build a civilization/economy against a rival, and more like tempo battle for control
@@subtletherapy Thanks for all that! You've definitely made me want to at least play it. I keep going back and forth on this game. :)
I now have both Duel games but am still looking for players for Duel for Middle Earth. I appreciate your video comparison between the two Duels because your video is the first comparison video that provided the perspective that the reimplementation is actually based on the 7 Wonders Duel with expansions. Great perspective. By the way, I happen to love the Agora expansion. It feels like a game within a game in a good way. When I played the other expansion (Pantheon) on Board Game Arena I didn’t really get into it so decided not to purchase that expansion set. I’m thinking Middle Earth will come to the table more frequently because of the simpler rules and will be easier to teach others. Plus I’m a big LOTR fan! Will there be expansion sets for Middle Earth? My gut feeling is yes.
Both designers are on record as saying there will not be any expansions for Duel for the Middle Earth. They said they consider this a complete game.
However, there is definitely money to be made with expansions. Lots of money. So we'll see.
When I saw you playing with the Agora’s cards, I thought : Maaan, that dude has some mad skills! I then remembered you we also a magician! It shows! 😅
He works in the casino as a croupier
So the race track is just that, a race track... the 7WD version is a push/pull mechanic, seems like a major difference and I think I prefer the 7WD implementation.
After a few plays, I can say the race track is actually the new piece replacing the old go to scoring points end game. The board with the 7 regions is like the old military track. The units cancel out in a similar way to my push cancels your push. Except now there's an extra layer of geography so they only cancel out if they're in the same region, compared to a push is push. It used to be net 8 or 9 pushes more than the opponent to win, where as now it's 7 units in the right places to win.
@@Nic1700 The 7 region board is actually a straight copy of the senate from the expansion.
@Duxa_ No, the influence markers on the senate board accumulate rather than canceling out, so moving them from chamber to chamber has a much different effect. If you have no units, the movement cards in Chapter 3 don't do anything, while you can take influence markers from chambers you trail in and consolidate them elsewhere. This is a good example of "area control" as compared to "area majority".
It will be very difficult to replace 7WD with both expansions at the same time, but it will bring more adventure theme to the game.
I think this is for those who like Panthon but not Agora that much. I will rank them like this:
6. 7WD base game
5. 7WD base game + Pantheon
4. 7WD base game + Agora
3. Lord of the Rings: Duel for Middle Earth
2. 7WD base game + Pantheon + Agora
1. 7WD base game + Pantheon + Agora (play with "Guild" cards instead of "Grand Temple" cards from Pantheon)
Because it brings much more tension at the end and it's much more interesting for playing and scoring)
And thus continues the trend of publishers releasing reimplementations/1.5 versions of games that make improvements from the original base game, but perhaps don’t offer as much as the original + expansions, at least until they get their own expansions.
E.g., Raiders of Scythia, Dune Imperium Uprising, Clank! in Space, Everdell Farshore, etc.
I played base 7WD a few weeks ago in person after only playing it on BGA for a while and realised I never wanted to play in person again. Calculating how much cards costs is so fiddly in 7WD because of the prices changing based on what your opponent is producing.
True, but I'm sorta the other way. Playing on BGA feels too "easy" and takes some of the fun out of the game for me. I generally prefer it on the table, which isn't true for all games.
Cheers!!
I really enjoy both versions a lot
We have 7 Wonders Duel with no expansions. I will get this, immediately. The theme and the art got me like 90% there, and your description sealed the deal.
7 Wonders Duel with the Pantheon expansion is very very good. If this one is on that level and ..not the same (mechanic-wise) it is an auto buy for me.
I love seven wonders duel but I really didn't care for this new version. I appreciate the streamlining but it just didn't hook me. The combat map felt fidgety to me.
I hope Sauron finaaly wins one, he was so close to world domination when he lost to basically a little trick. I'm sure that feels really bad.
Just finished first game (as Sauron) and lost as the Fellowship player won a battle in Mordor with the last played card... 10/10 for realism xD
@@stefanradev7034 🤣that really is realistic !
Yes. Yes it is
Love your content ❤
But I have exactly the same feelings. Base game Lotr vs 7W, Lotr is better. But because Panteon exists, 7 wonders have more options, is more competitive, it's just better. Lord of the rings duel for the middle earth needs expansion, to get to that level of the gameplay. I own both games and definitely 7 wonders is one of my favourite games of all time. I just hope they will make me feel about Lotr the same way. Thank you.
Thank you so much! I’m so happy to hear you’re enjoying what we do. It will be interesting to see where this will land with an expansion!
I really like the Lotr theme and the area control but i dont like 2 things:
1. The Cards have no names. That takes a lot From the theme
2. I think the money economy in 7 wonders is better an i like it more.
I will Stick to 7 wonders for Now
Great Review and great Video as always.
I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone with this one. Never have I been so blindsided, so utterly disappointed in a game, as I am by this. It's crazy how disconnected I'm feeling from what seems to be a consensus. To me this is almost a strict downgrade (it would be, if not for a few visual stuff about the game, which does look amazing), mechanics wise, it's baffling to me. I don't get people praising how this solves some supposed "bureaucratic" rules from the original. Apparently trading was too hard? Really? The game is not 7 Wonders Duel 1.5, it's "My Little 7 Wonders Duel", or "My First 7 Wonders Duel", it's dumbed down beyond recognition. I've played the game 8 times in 2 days, and it's already boring beyond belief. I used the opportunity to play 7WD again a few times, since it had been a while since I had done it, and I instantly confirmed my suspicions: there's a reason 7WD has been on top 100s and top 10s of so many people even after almost 10 years of its release, the game is elegant, "simple" but not "dumb", extremely replayable. Between the wonders, the guild cards, and different paths to score points (while having the military and science victory as a side thing), you can revisit again and again. People may call me crazy right now, but if I had to bet my life on this, I would:
Mark my words, people will flock to this, and in the next top 100s of a lot of people, they will have replaced 7wd with this. But in time, people will realize how insanely weak this game actually is, and go back to the OG.
It better is. I already pre-ordered. LoL.
I don't get it- I don't get The Draft of the Rings. I don't get The Economy of the Rings. I don't get The Area Control of the Rings.
I also don't get how any flimsy standalone repackage could possibly compete with the two player perfection that is 7 Wonders Duel with Agora and Pantheon (p.s Agora is the better of the two expansions imho, but both hang together wonderfully to create a breathtaking 45min epic, each and every time.)
It is quick, simple and very thematic, with good tension.
I haven't played both, but watched playthroughs of both and I prefer lotr, because it is easier, quicker but still with enough tension to make it fun.
I honestly don't really like 7wduel playthroughs, they just seem too complicated .
I prefer a bit easier and quicker game, but I do understand that people prefer the 7wduel with expansions who like a bit deeper games.
Agreed 100% Base game to Base game, Duel for Middle Earth wins, no contest. This is a 9/10 for me straight out of the box. 7 Wonders duel (base game) is a 7/10, but it reaches 9/10 as well once you add the expansions (I love Agora personally more than Pantheon, I feel that Guilds in pantheon are super boring even though the rest of the expansion is great).
I just feel the LOTR theme is not deep enough in this one.
Time will tell whether it’s good or hype
It’s good.