Appreciate the final note. Even readers of the books sometimes overlook that Aragorn, as much as Frodo and Sam, is responsible for the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron. It was he who at the perfect time revealed and announced himself via the Orthanc seeing stone. It was the combination of Sauron seeing Frodo with the Ring at Amon Hen, the following silence of Saruman and rumors of his defeat, the folly of Pippin in using the Palantir and being interrogated by Sauron all culminating in Aragorn revealing himself via the Palantir and implying that he was the one responsible for all of this. Sauron assumed that Aragorn had the Hobbit who was known to have possessed the Ring, and therefore had taken the Ring himself. He was near Amon Hen, so he had brought the Ring south. He was using the Orthanc Palantir, so he had already defeated Saruman, Sauron’s strongest ally. And then to top it all off, he withstood Sauron’s will (barely), taunted him with Narsil reforged (the sword that cut the Ring from his finger), and then wrested the control of the Palantir away from Sauron as its true and rightful owner, proving that he was an heir of Elendil. This was a killer combo blow to Sauron’s ego and confidence, and fixated his attention on Aragorn who he knew would make his way to Gondor. It’s why he attacked Minas Tirith. It’s why he emptied Minas Morgul just after Sam, Frodo, and Gollum had passed it. It’s why he never considered nor discovered that his enemies might be attempting to destroy the Ring in the only way it could be destroyed. And Aragorn played up the illusion right to the Black Gate, moments before Gollum fell with the Ring into the fires of Doom. Too late Sauron realized that he had been played masterfully not by Gandalf, or Elrond, or Galadriel, but by Aragorn.
Both times Sauron noticed the ring-wearer, the ring-wearer was trying to do more than hide. At Amon Hen, probably unwittingly, Frodo was trying to exert his will; at Sammath Naur he was claiming the ring for his own. In all other cases, Smeagol, Bilbo, and Frodo were actively thinking of *not* being noticed.
Great thought. Almost all of the wearers, nearly every time they wore it, were using the Ring for invisibility and hiding, which was a random side effect of it. Rather than its true purpose, which is dominating other life. Frodo even asks Galadriel this, and why he hasn't heard the thoughts or seen into the minds of the wearers of the Three for instance. She tells him, "You have not tried. Do not try!" That was good advice on many levels.
I was actually thinking that as well. In Amon Hen, he is using it to see far, at Sammath Naur he claims it for his own. Except for the time Gollum takes it for the first time and at the cracks of doom, he doesn’t claim it, merely uses it to hide.
I was going to say, he only sees Frodo at mount Doom after Frodo claims the one ring as his own. If he had put on the ring inside Mordor he would have shown up in the spirit realm and, although not necessarily a beacon in the dark, he would stand if Sauron looked at him.
I agree. I have many a bone to pick with the adaptation from book to film, but they captured a lot of the stuff well. I was blown away by their depiction of Minas Tirith. Most of their scenery was done incredibly well. Don't remember any snowy mountains planted right in the heart of the Shire lol, but who's counting?
One of the few things the Hobbit movie did right was how they revealed Sauron's eye and the humanoid silhouette. Looked cool. I don't really like the overall context or sequences but there were a few.
A bit of additional theorizing: It's well understood the Ring grants power to the bearer based on the measure of power the bearer already possesses. A hobbit putting on the Ring and going invisible (shifting to the Unseen realm) would do little to attract Sauron's attention, but if Gandalf (for example) were to put on the Ring, especially if he were to *claim* it, he would likely attract Sauron's attention immediately no matter where in Middle-earth Gandalf was.
There is also the fact of the Ring corrupting its holder. A lot of people would be tempted to use its power for Good or for Evil and inevitably gain power and renown. Such actions cause ripples even to the regular populace and would get Sauron's attention much quicker than the more low-key use of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo using it in quiet and remote locations. You can even see that when Frodo messed up in Bree, it quite immediately became a popular topic of the town and the Nine were notified. While there might not be a magical GPS on the Ring, the temptation of its power alone would cause attention to be drawn to it. As much as Sauron wanted to find the Ring, the Ring also wanted to be found and get back to Sauron.
This explanation is very strong and well supported throughout Tolkien’s writing. I don’t mean explicitly - I mean, this explanation is the best one that you’d get by various inferences from explanations peppered throughout Tolkien’s legendarium. Cheers!
This is exactly my idea. Hobbits don't get enough power from the ring to become the big glowing magic beacons that every other species becomes when they hold it.
I would think that the intent of using it would matter as well. Since bilbo and frodo almost always used it to hide, then such an effect would be magnified, even against its master. When it was put on in Mt. Doom, it was done so from a place of domination and claiming mastery over it. And since there can only be one lord of the Ring, that alerted Sauron.
I love how it is portrayed in the movie as well. That pure look of surprise and terror as sauron realizes that the ring is behind him in the one place he doesn't want it to be.
@klaykid117 same. I love the way the Eye frantically and feverishly looks left and right in sheer desperation, hoping for one last chance to save himself (himself being Sauron, obviously lol) and realising just how badly he had misunderstood what his foes plans were. That eye has more emotion in those few seconds than some films have throughout their entire runtime.😂
More simply, for the entire time Gollum and Bilbo possessed the ring, they didn't know what it was. They could thus not exert their own oppositional consciousness (willful resistance to its evil) while bearing it. This is likely what 'woke up' Sauron and enabled him to sense it, if only in a general way at first. Once he did learn there was another conscious person in control of the ring seeking to oppose Sauron's will, he progressively became more able to sense it.
I love that Sauron was clueless until just the end. When Aragorn arrived in Gondor and heard Sam and Frodo were likely in Mordor by then, his first thought was to walk his @$$ right up to the front gates. He knew Sauron would assume there was no way a MAN would be so brazen UNLESS he had The One Ring. Played him like a fiddle! 🎻
At Amon Hen, the book phrases it as more that Sauron noticed Frodo watching him, rather than the other way around. Sauron didn’t see the amplified ring so much as feel he was being watched, and so turned to look at who was watching him. There’s a good chance the ring would not even be necessary to attract his attention that way, similarly to the palantiri
Exactly. And this is a trick used in so many fantasy worlds. Where veteran mages or creatures with affinity for magic can easily sense when someone is watching them from afar using magic, and the more ancient or stronger beings are able to locate where they are being watched from, who's watching them and sometimes even mess with the head of the watchers.
@@Donivar "When one gazes into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." Tolkien would have read Nietzsche. It's a common theme in fantasy, the slow descent of he who fights with monsters to become a monster himself, but fantasy writers sometime makes it more literal.
Man the books are so incredibly nuanced in this way. I re-read them recently and was BLOWN AWAY by how masterfully Tolkien described supernatural/magical stuff. It's also why every epic fantasy just pales compared to Tolkien. Black Riders in Fellowship of the Ring have to be one of the coolest creatures ever thought of in history of literature. The movies somehow have them as some ring-zombies - while the books paint them as truly horrifying not because of their appearance but methodical, almost detective-like hunt of the Hobbits. And after they stab Frodo - movies switch to the chase and make it so that Arwen just outrun them - but in the books - they just fell back and waited, knowing there's no chance for Frodo to survive. They casually made an ambush at the ford, and only because of combined powers of Elrond and Gandalf Frodo scrapes through, barely. The same goes for Sauron, Balrog even Saruman, movies just paint them all too black and white and dare I say a bit cartoon-ish. But the books have that aura they irradiate, their towering presence, you feel their immense power through Tolkien's masterfully chosen words and scenes. And that gets me to your comment - the way he did the whole scene of Frodo and Sauron - it's like that stereotypical nightmare where you think you are safe, but you're not. You feel you are watching someone, hiding from them, maybe, and you observe them, hoping you are safe, thinking "there's no way they see me" and they just turn and look you in the eye. Masterful.
It seems like sensing Frodo at Mount doom could be because Frodo “claimed” the ring and it’s power for his own. As other comments have pointed out, Sauron didn’t notice when Sam put on the ring in Mordor, so that goes against him being able to sense it in his own land. So Sauron only felt the Ring’s presence when someone actively tried to control and use its power. Which does explain why he never sensed it with all the other ring bearers. Gollum and other bearers only used it to be invisible, which seems to be a passive effect of wearing the ring. None of them actively tried to use the ring for any other purpose, so it’s true power, Sauron’s power, wasn’t being used and therefore he couldn’t sense it.
Makes sense, actifley claiming the ring acually activates the power within it, so of course Sauron would sense that. Kind of ironic if Borromir HAD gotten the Ring and claim it, Sauron would have found it and probably gotten his hands on it, as even if the others would have bein able to kill him before he could do any harm, now Sauron would know where to look.
We know that four beings are turned invisible by wearing the One Ring - Smeagol/Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise. Three of them are Hobbits and the fourth is Hobbit-like, if not an actual Hobbit. And it's suggestive that one of the things we learn about Hobbits is that they have a knack of disappearing when Big Folk are about, so it's plausible that the Ring is enhancing a natural talent. We know that Sauron is not invisible when wearing the One Ring. We also know that Tom Bombadil is unaffected by the Ring, though he isn't exactly evidence for anything except himself. We also know that wearing the Ring makes Hobbits more visible to the Nazgul, and allows them to see the spirit realm. What the One Ring would do as a passive effect for Elves, Dwarves, or Men is open for speculation.
@@rmsgrey the ring would take anyone that isn’t immortal into the shadow realm and them appear invisible to those in the normal realm. The reason the Nazgûl are invisible is because they full succumbed to their own rings. The wraiths were once men themselves therefore we know the effect the ring would have on them.
@@ItsSVO We know the effect those Rings had on the Nazgul when they fully succumbed to them. We don't know whether that effect applied for just wearing them before succumbing, nor whether the Ruling Ring would have had the same effect. Though Men and Hobbits are close enough kin that it's not implausible for them to be affected the same way. We also know that the Dwarven Rings had little or no discernible effect on their Dwarvish wearers, so at least some mortals wore some of the Nineteen without turning invisible.
Thanks for this. Just noticed something that I hadn't before ... the parallel between Sammath Naur and Gandalf speaking to Theoden at Edoras: "The Dark Lord knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung" ; Gandalf says to Theoden "Doom hangs still upon a thread" (and added IIRC in the radio play: "it is, I fear, the merest thread")
Well done!! You are spot on! I’m impressed that you separate the movies from what was actually written. Too many other people try to be an LOR expert and only quote the movies!!
What’s even more telling is that right after Frodo removes the ring on Amon Hen, he feels that the gaze of the Eye has moved on and the treat is now gone. Feeling that it is now save for him to do so, he puts the ring back on without any fear of Sauron noticing him.
I went to the movie theatre to see the new Trolls movie but they didn't have tickets. There was a vendor outside who was getting angry because a man was undercutting them on carrots. He was selling whole bags of carrots for 8.99 which was a really big deal, but people didn't want to buy the fish from the vendor with the carrot guy in the way. They were in a really heated argument when I left the theatre but I didn't stop to ask what was wrong. I hope everything is alright with you bro. I hope you are getting everything you need in life.
I've also carried a bit of a headcannon that the seat somehow manages to connect to Sauron's seeing stone. We know very little about the stones and how they work, so it's possible that while Saruman was distracted by building his army, he wasn't with his stone when the group made their stop. Maybe the magic of the seat, which has the power of letting you see far off places, was designed to connect to or be used at the same time as a seeing stone
Didn't Gandalf do something at that point to attract the eye to himself? I seem to remember the terrifying gaze went past Amon Hen to look at a light in the distance.
I think the second time Sauron realises that Frodo has the ring at the cracks of doom is more down to the fact that Frodo claims the ring as his own, a challenge to Sauron's authority.
Correct. The ring is a character in itself. It *wanted* to be found. It *escaped* Gollum as much as Bilbo found it. It calls to its master. It seeks to bend the will of anyone who has it. It knows who its master is (and will not willingly serve another). To be claimed by Frodo would have shaken it, bent it, and it cried out in agony such that it was impossible for Sauron to not hear it.
@@EarMaster55 It's essentially implied that Bilbo stumbling upon the Ring against all odds, and even against the Ring's will itself is a twist of fate/act of god
Let us not forget the other obvious thing, which is that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit the ring had an entirely different purpose in the story. It was a wondrous tool that enabled Bilbo's character growth from timid homebody to take-charge adventurer. Tolkien's bit of retconning of the ring when he decided to write a sequel would inevitably leave some inconsistencies. It is, of course, a great tribute to the consistency of Tolkien's world building that fans will find logical rationales for elements that don’t perfectly harmonize between the two works.
Except Tolkien actually heavily edited the Hobbit to retcon it into LotR verse, just did pretty poor job at it (fun fact, Hobbit originally had goblin tanks - yes, as in war machines)...
It you notice inconsistencies in Tolkien's world, it's because what you are reading is actually a collection of true histories and ancient legends pieced together. Right?
Got a North American second printing sitting right here (albeit an extremely beat up one), and can confirm that it's definitely not written as Sauron's one ring
The Hobbit was a kids story with countless treasures and named weapons and the rings of power which were always left intentionally vague. The arkenstone was all the buzz then Tolkien realised just how useless the stone was so he had to do something lol. I'm glad he did
Great video. My interpretation was always that the invisibility was a passive power of the ring that everyone got and was so low level it didn’t echo that far (but did light you up in the spirit world). When Frodo gets caught he’s actively using the ring to enhance his own power (reaching out with his vision, actively claiming the ring which revitalized his). This made a much louder “noise” that Sauron could hear. Frodo knows he can use the ring that way, he asked himself if he’s strong enough to take on the witch king when he sees his army past and decides “not yet”.
I like to think invisibility is just what the ring gives you when you're trying to hide or flee (Bilbo, Isildur) or sneak around (Smeagol). The Ring passively gives you what you need without thinking about it, but because these people are non-magical, they just assume that "Oh! It made me invisible! It's an invisibility ring!" and from then on assume that it's an invisibility ring, so when they put it on they're always manipulating it towards invisibility. Frodo thinks the same from Bilbo. It's when he uses the ring to 'see' the world that he begins to realise it's other powers, which he likely only realises due to being in a magical place and because other people have told him the ring has other powers. There's no reason he couldn't be manipulating the ring in other ways, but people who aren't magical don't treat it that way. I'm not sure it's about a "loud" noise, so much as it's about Frodo literally just looks straight at Sauron in his tower. Sauron is magical, he can tell when someone is spying on him. I'm not sure he realises at that moment that it's the Ring being used. I don't think he actually knows the exact location of the ring at any point until Frodo claims it in Mount Doom. Because if he knows the ring is there, surely he'd send the Nazgul to scour the Dead Marshes and the lands near there and try and find the ring. But he doesn't. He actually doesn't do anything to try and recover the ring until Pippin uses the Palantir and Sauron mistakes him for Frodo and thinks he has the ring. If he knows the Ring has been used at Amon Hen, surely all his efforts would immediately be devoted to retrieving it. So no, I don't believe he has any clue that the Ring is at Amon Hen. He just knows someone is spying on him. He probably assumes it's one of the wizards, or a very bold elf. He might be curious about it, but he certainly doesn't think the One Ring is there, and pays little attention to it. As soon as he thinks Pippin has it in Rohan, he freaks out thinking the Gondorians are going to claim it and use it against him and instantly starts taking action to recover it. I see no reason why this wouldn't have been his response at Amon Hen if he realised.
As someone who only read the Hobbit, but not the lotr books as a child and then only watched the lotr movies, I find your videos to be a very enjoyable way of better getting to know the world of Tolkien. Also, that calm voice is super relaxing to listen to. Thanks for you videos, keep it up!
From the way it’s presented in the book, it’s apparent that Frodo is falling under Sauron’s spell at Amon Hen, and that is what is meant by him “seeing” him. He is getting dangerously close to becoming a wraith, as suggested by him saying “Verily, I come unto thee”, before he snaps out of it.
Imagine the perspective of this. I live on a massive hill with a city in the distance and I’m just imagining the tallest tower just growing and growing until it stares at me and petrifies and startles me
just imagine standing in the docks and suddenly a big ship approaches docks. this is literally the same feeling of power, size and might.@@legomastermaniac
I just started reading the Hobbit again and I had the exact same thought of how close the Ring was to Sauron when Bilbo was traveling through Mirkwood. I'd forgotten that Amon Hen was a mystical place. Good explanation!
I also always felt the chair on Amon Hen only worked for Frodo because he was wearing the Ring - I think Aragorn might have used its far-seeing powers, but like many of Tolkien's magic items, it grants power according to its wielders own. Frodo, without the power boost of wearing the One Ring, probably would only have enjoyed a nice vista from a high place, instead of seeing visions of faraway lands.
Tolkien"s magic may be "famously soft," but I have never felt like it contradicted itself. I think it's the perfect way to do fantasy. And here we are, figuring out the rules to the magic and making sense of it without a great deal of mental gymnastics. Weirdly, the spiritual nature of LotR is what makes it make sense.
Cause we are in a spiritual world and war, these kind of worlds resonates with us. Same reason love, honor, peace, hope, faith and courage resonate with us.. we were made to be connected to God and to have communion with Him, that's why He sent Jesus Christ to save us and bring us back to Himself, and grant us Victory in this obvious spiritual war through Him, and to more than conquerors through Christ who strengthens us.
Always felt that Sauron could see Frodo in Mordor because Frodo actually claimed the ring and in a sense tried to wield it. Also perhaps because it was the birthplace of the ring.
Yes I was going to point this out as well. Þhe act of claiming the ring was the act of taking the power as frodos and I think it would had to have shaken him. Also the fact suron was finally at full power maybe allowed him to sense more then he had in all the years he couldn't take form and was building his power up again. Thanks just an opinion nothing more
I thought that as well. Maybe they could have sensed it if it had been used in the more casual way it is other places, but I think not in the same, way as Frodo claiming it as his.
You might have always felt that because that’s the words that are in the book. When Frodo claimed the ring Sauron felt it and was finally able to pierce the protections he had placed on the ring. You felt that way cuz you fucking read it.
I remember something about Sam wearing the Ring right after Shelob. While sneaking around he was keenly aware of the gaze of Sauron and knew that if he so much as glanced his direction he would instantly be found. The detection cone of the eye was basically visible to him, even through solid stone and iron, and he knew it was only the fact that Sauron had no idea that he was there that kept him alive.
well pointed, im reading the other comments and there are a few others asking why couldnt sauron see sam... my personal question is could sauron tell if it was HIS ring, or just A ring of power.
Sam might be a bit of a special case. Since he has no thirst for power and also it was his first time wearing it. He was able to just barely go unnoticed for a little while. That's how I see it anyway.
@@ToneSherpaI think this, along with the fact that Aragorn was actively bringing a fight to Sauron’s front door definitely helped Sam sneak past everything.
When Sam put on the ring after Shelob, he was still on the Ithilien side of the pass, so technically outside of Mordor proper. Once he crosses the pass into Mordor in search of Frodo and the tower entrance, he is aware that Sauron would probably see him if he put on the ring now. "'And anyway all these notions are only a trick,' he said to himself. 'He'd spot me, pretty quick, if I put the Ring on now, in Mordor. Well, all I can say is: things look as hopeless as a frost in spring. Just when being invisible would be really useful, I can't use the Ring! And if ever I get any further, it's going to be nothing but a drag and a burden every step. So what's to be done?'" (from "The Tower of Cirith Ungol," chapter 1 of book six, "The Return of the King").
When listenin to the speculation and ideas about how Sauron saw Frodo while he was in the seat my first thought was a quote, “He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”. He used the magic chair and gazed at Sauron, who was able to sense it and gazed right back. He would have sensed Frodo regardless of if he had the ring on at that moment, kinda like how Sauramon found and ended up getting corrupted by Sauron when he used his palantír.
The scene on Amon Hen was tremendously important, for there we see the entire scope of The War of the Ring--something the movies sadly missed out on. BTW, the Welsh story of Pwyll and Rhiannon involves a storied and magical seat that allows one to see marvels.
I remember in the book when Sam put on the ring in the -Morgul- _Ungol_ tower and Sauron not sensing him (despite Sam wearing it for presumably hours), and it was said that Sauron's darkness over the Morgul Veil was so thick that even he could not see what happened within.
I thought it was because the ring wasn't actively searching for Sauron back in Bilbo's time. It was dormant, and Sauron himself was still somewhat diminished. It wasn't until he became stronger that both the Nazgul and his ring became more active.
The ring escaped Gollum because Sauron was starting to take form (as the Necro). Tolkien never really says it outright but it's pretty safe to assume Sauron didn't notice Bilbo because he was still weak, and too busy hiding and preparing his re-emergence in Mordor.
@@TheNagroth We have a seven day gap between Bilbo claiming the Ring and Gandalf going off to purge Dol Goldur (12 July T.A. 2941 - 19 July T.A. 2941). My guess is he realized the White Council was coming for him and he was distracted with finalizing his preparations in Mordor to consider the Ring.
That is some beautiful art-work, much respect to you for linking to the creators! I always feel that adapting a book scene by scene, line by line to the screen is asking for a disaster, and I feel like the LotR trilogy is as perfect a book-to-movie adaptation as I've seen. So yes, creating that sense of danger by making Frodo visible makes sense; I always thought that while Bilbo was wearing it, Sauron wasn't searching for somebody wearing it, on the logic that if somebody had found it, they would have quickly put it on and either gone stark raving mad, or taken over by the ring, or made a bit for world domination, or a mix thereof. I think Gandalf even said that at some point: It would never occur to Sauron that somebody might _not_ use the ring. My first thought at the book version of Frodo becoming visible - btw, I very much enjoyed your reading of it! - was: he is in a magical place, one that connects to other places, and that magic makes him visible. And I love that hint at his will not being under his own control, the contrast between the protest he wants to speak, and the obedient answer he _may_ be speaking. And yes, that "you fool" is pretty much Gandal's calling card, in-offical slogan and go-to hobbit endearment.
I think the main reason why Sauron couldn't sense Bilbo is because Sauron simply haven't recovered enough strength to do so. He was surviving to gain power and not focussing on the ring yet. As stated in the book and seen in the Hobbit trilogy, Sauron was a mere shadow and at times he was seen as a different foe (the necromancer) in the eyes of Gandalf, Galadriel, Saruman and Elrond. It's not until the second movie they sense that dark energy is indeed Sauron who has gained a lot of his strength back.
that or the ring, as a device, was optimized for humans, elves and dwarves and it took all those years with Bilbo to calibrate it for a new species. Could be argued Gollum also helped to teach the ring to see species not in the original design.
i completely disagree. nothing drastically changed with regards to sauron's personal power and strength over the 70ish years between the hobbit and the war of the ring. sauron is a timeless, patient force operating over spans of thousands of years. EXCEPT for the fact that sauron learns that the ring has been found by some baggins guy living in some place called the shire (after having captured gollum in mordor and interogating him). he then basically goes into panic mode and sends out the nazgul to search for the ring, while launching the attack on gondor as basically a decoy to allow the nazgul to cross the anduin, right under gondor's nose. if it hadn't been for gollum spilling the beans to sauron, the whole assault could have been postponed by centuries. i'd say he sensed frodo, and not bilbo, simply because he was fully focusing on finding the ring by the time of the lord of the rings, whereas during the hobbit, he thought the ring to be lost and was busy with his standard order of the day (scheming, planning and slowly building up his strength and armies to eventually take over middle earth). the fact that he moved from dol guldur to mordor during these 70 years didn't suddenly make him 10x more powerful, at least not him personally
This is the main reason. Sauron is still (mostly) asleep, barely awake, finally awakening after his great defeat at the end of the 2nd age. When Sauron is awake enough to *really* start actively leading again, it is different and he is much more aware.
@@duki4631 That is like saying that nothing diminished Saruman when Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff and then again moreso after his final fall in the Shire. Or, that Gandalf after his death and return was merely the same.
@@nctpti2073 don't really get what you're aiming at. i just wanted to say that sauron had been regaining power for 3000 years up to that point, and nothing accelerated that dramatically in as little as 70 years between the hobbit and the lotr. he just learned about the ring and sprang into action
Excellent explanation, as always. Personally, I always considered that during the Hobbit, Sauron was not in his Eye form, thuns lacked the power to spot the ring. Only after reforming, Sauron could cast his gaze and spot Frodo.
IIRC, Sauron was not a disembodied fiery eyeball in the books. He was physical, but was stuck in a form that was evil-looking, unable to shapeshift. Gollum mentioned the Dark Lord having a finger missing. In the books, the Eye was pretty much a heraldic symbol and a metaphor, as the bear symbolizes Russia.
@@OhioCoastie94 That's correct; Sauron regained a physical form, perhaps as early as around year 1000 of the 3rd Age but his form still lacked the one finger that Isildur cut off.
@@OhioCoastie94Sauron was stuck in an evil form without being able to shapeshift ever since the destruction of Numinor, that form was destroyed by the last alliance when his finger and ring were removed. During the war of the ring he had a physical body but without the power of the ring he couldn’t get it back to a strong form, his body was weak and frail which is why he hid in the tower
Good analysis. I think most folks who've watched the movies but not read the books (or read the books so much!) probably have forgotten that Sauron's ability to sense the Ring-wearer is very different in each. It's a change that works in the movies I think, much better than if Frodo were to put in the Ring and feel nothing special.
Lest we forget, in the films, when Pippin looked into the Palantir and met Sauron’s gaze, it’s noted by Merry that his removal from Rohan with Gandalf is because “The enemy thinks you have the Ring!” I think this is further evidence that Sauron’s information is that some halfling has the One Ring, and not that he specifically knows whom, like a GPS signal, but that through his spies, he’s aware that a hobbit has it. I’m working my way through the books at the moment but I think this is an important detail.
I always thought that Frodo CLAIMING the ring was the key thing. Even Gollum never really "claimed" the ring...the ring had claimed him. "The Precious." But when Frodo CLAIMED the ring it was a direct challenge to Sauron in the same way that Aragorn revealing his Kingship was a challenge to Sauron...albeit an intentional one.
@@rumfordc that’s Gollum lamenting over the ring as a possession, not him claiming the ring for himself in the way Frodo does. When Frodo claims the ring it alerts the other rings of power, 13 of which Sauron currently has in his possession. Just like the rings alerted the elves when Sauron claimed the one thousands of years prior, the same happens here only the roles are different.
@@rumfordcI might liken it to someone standing next to a Lamborghini and saying it’s theirs vs someone with a key hopping in it and attempting to drive off in it claiming it was theirs. Like addictions, who really owns who, in Gollums case, the Ring owned him. He lacked concept of what it was he actually had.
I'm not ignoring that at all... I'm saying Smeagol/Gollum never claimed the Ring "as his"...rather quite the opposite: he was the Ring's. Hence why Frodo made him "swear by the Ring." The Ring owned Gollum, not the other way around.
When for whatever reason I feel anxiety in life I come to this channel and the magic of childhood memories reading these books transports me to that safe place. I dressed up as Frodo for a summer Halloween thing we have in Spain in the summer of 2000 or 2001 when the general public who didn´t read the books weren´t aware of Tolkien and it was refreshing. I dressed up as a half-ass Legolas (no bow nor wig) and it was ridiculous. Still, I got laid that night ;)
THANK YOU for differentiating between the interpretations of the movies and books because the books can have vastly different interpretations from the movies and that doesn’t make the movies or books worse the movies needed their own interpretations to make it watchable
Love your LotR content It's some of the most knowledgeable, informative, concise, and well crafted explanations of the stories of Arda I've ever come across.
As usual, I love your LotR rings. I do have one more suggestion as to why Frodo and the ring were sensed in Mount Doom: it is (also) because Frodo actively claimed the Ring at the moment he put it on. Frodo was actually vying to be the master of the Ring then and I see that as a real trigger.
I think another aspect may also be awareness. Sauron wasnt aware of the people inherently but it would make sense he would be more easily able to notice a user if he both knew who to look for a roughly where
It's just because the eye can see when there's reach of sight. You can see that even in Mordor, when in the blind sight of rocks eye searches. As so at the Amon Hen. Not astral projection, just eyesight.
The scene at Amon Hen seems quite reminiscent of how Sauron was able to ensnare Saruman through their palantiri. In both cases, the magically-enhanced nature of the other person's sight allowed Sauron to quickly become aware of it, and created a sort of link that he could exploit in reverse. Frodo's reaction to Sauron at Amon Hen seems like he fears being dominated in a similar way to how Saruman was. Obviously, the biggest factor in Frodo not being caught was his rapidly taking off the ring and leaving the seat, but there's also the factor that Amon Hen doesn't have any underlying connection to Barad Dur or anything in it, whereas all the palantiri were inherently linked.
The Palantiri were instrumental in Sauron corrupting both Sarumon and Boromir's father the Steward by whispering falsities into his ears while he was using the Palantir in the Palace. I also believe the reason why Sauron couldn't sense that his ring was being used was because at Dolgul Dor he was only able to see a certain area of mirk wood where at the top of Baradh Dur he was able to see miles using the Palantir of Minas Morgal
Aqui no meu país, tem um canal chamado CineJan . Uma moça bem morena . Ela acredita que os locais onde onde Frodo usou o anel e Sauron pode vê-lo, são locais mágicos de alguma forma. Também pode sentir quando alguém reenvidica o Anel . Essas são as únicas formas de Sauron sentir o Anel
I think it has a lot more to do with the claiming part. Sure, proximity to Barad Dur and Mount Doom help (and are distinct from Cirith Ungol and other parts of Mordor), but Frodo claimed the ring and attempted to exert his will over it, which he’d never done before, and I think that’s what made the connection.
This is a very good reminder of the core story from the books and very accurate. The one thing i never understood, since Sauron cannot sense the Ring except for the couple of cases discussed in the video (Amon Hen and In Orodruin) how is it that Gollum is able to sense it and follow it, almost literally across the continent?
As another comment said Sauron was master of the ring, Gollum was mastered by the ring. While the ring seeks to return to its master, gollum does so too
It is weird and worth asking how Gollum found and tracked Frodo. my impression is that other ring bearers (including ex ring bearers) can sense if a ring of power is nearby, especially if the ring they sense is being worn. It raises a question though, if a ring bearer senses a ring is nearby, can they tell which ring it is? Bear in mind Gandalf had to apply fire to identify Bilbo's ring. Second we know Sauron was using a Palantir at Barad-dûr, but these Palantir's must have had their weak points that hindered even Sauron himself so he couldn't rely on the Palantir exclusively.
I never considered Gollum to have a supernatural ability to follow the ring or Frodo. I got the impression that he was transformed into a sort of nocturnal creature with heightened senses, partly because of his new life scrounding for fish in the dark. I need to review the books...
Isildur was drowned with the Ring at the Gladden Fields, not Lórien, as is indicated on that map. Having said that, Dol Guldur, which Sauron chose as his new dwelling, was still not that far away from the Gladden Fields - but we don't know whether that was because of the Ring drawing him there or because he knew Isildur met his fate around there. I'm guessing it was the latter reason. Also, it wasn't just because Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath Naur that Sauron became aware of him, it was also because Frodo claimed it for himself. That's what drew Sauron's attention. The Land of Mordor itself doesn't have any special magical power in combination with the Ring, apart from the fact that the Ring grows in power the closer it gets to its place of forging and is also thus more able to call to its master. So it was able to overpower Frodo at the end and compel him into claiming it, thus alerting Sauron to where it was.
@@jameszimmerman1069 In The Two Towers, in the chapter The White Rider, after revealing himself to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, Gandalf says: "The Ring now has passed beyond my help ... Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower, and the Shadow passed." This is also referenced in The Return of the King in the chapter The Black Gate Opens, where "...Frodo felt [Gandalf's presence], not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen, though he believed that Gandalf was gone, gone for ever."
I like how you've explained the general dynamic between the ring and it's master. Just like the ring didn't draw everyone to it with a flare, It also couldn't just magically fly back to Sauron's hand, it could only slip from Isildur and Gollums fingers to try to get back.
Another part of why Sauron knew where Frodo was at the end, was that Frodo claimed the ring as he put it upon his finger in Mt Doom. By doing so he literally challenged the Dark Lord, making all of his works done with the ring tremble, shaking the very tower in which he sat!
An incorrect one nonetheless. The reason Sauron becomes aware of Frodo is because he claims the ring with the intent to master it. This alerts Sauron in the same way Sauron doing it before alerted the Elves via their rings of power. Remember that Sauron has at least 13 rings of power in his possession including the 9 given to the would be Nazgûl.
@@ItsSVO Although I do like that theory, I'm not convinced that's the real reason.. I don't think Frodo has any intend to master the ring, more than Gollum did.. I think he just wanted it for himself, and to disappear with it to somewhere safe.. More or less the same as Gollum.. I don't even think the other ringbearers knew he took it for himself.. Neither did they when Smeagol took it, before becoming gollum..
@@bjarkefromsejer394 This isn’t a theory, it literally happens in the books. Frodo openly claims the ring for his own which is a direct challenge to Sauron hence why he’s aware of its location.
The Amon Hen incident is quite funny when you think about it: "Hm hm hm... Oh, how amusing, there's a hobbit sitting on that throne... Wait a second! IS THAT MY RING!?"
I always thought it was because frodo and bilbo had pure hearts and was not close enough to evil yet, and the more time spent wearing the ring the more chances of it consuming your soul and sauron seeing you. That's why some can be seen when wearing it and some can't, Basically if you're easily turned or easily corrupted and miss led then the eye will pick you up a lot quicker. Well why sauron didn't see golum then i asked myself, well we don't actually see golum wearing the ring much, we see him carrying it in his pocketsis but not wearing it on a finger, I always thought as a child it was because his big bulky fingsr tips wont allow him to wear it and thats why sauron didn't see him, or the fact he mainly dwelled underground in caves and saurons eye only sees horizons. It's funny how your own imagination will always fill in the gaps.
I think for Amon Hen it's like how with Palantir, you are putting forward your will when you look at Sauron in his tower, Sauron of course has the stronger will so he was made aware of it and was putting his own will out to meet it. Same with Galadriel, Sauron is putting forward his will to find her but she is aware of it and can push his will back.
It has nothing to do with Galadriel's own ability but the ring of the power which she possessed! The elven ring which given to her specialized on preserving so she could preserve and defend her mind from Sauron's. Otherwise Sauron would break Galadriel's mind and read her mind easily as he did to Saruman. Yes, Tolkien also stated that Sauron oftenly taunted Saruman the white and read his thought forcefully even when Saruman refused and tried to withheld information from the dark lord. So even the White Wizard was hopeless against hiding his own thought from Sauron, how Galadriel could by herself? lol
@@_semih_Saruman was fallen and became enamored with the rings of power. He became easy for Sauron to manipulate, to some degree, as he was never fully loyal to Sauron, only finding the secrets of the rings of power, or finding the one ring itself. Galadriel, on the other hand, always possessed a higher level of defense against Sauron. Example being in the second age when she distrusted Anatar. There are plenty of first age examples of where doing things to elves were not 'easy' for Sauron.
@@PseudoNym100 No, he was not enamored when this happened. Saruman was still the White Wizard and not corrupted yet! Saruman was in a search for the Palantiri and he accidentally communicated with Sauron and by the time Sauron oftenly read Saruman's mind and thought forcefully and against his will and apparently he learned Saruman's secret plans by this way. "[It] is said that Sauron had at this time [3018], by means of the Palantiri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information." [Unfinished Tales, part III, The Third Age IV, The Hunt for the Ring Notes, Note 14] Galadriel never possessed a "higher level of defense" against Sauron. This is a pure fan fiction! Galadriel's distrust was not unique or a *superiority* in her case lol! It was about the ring of power she possessed. Despite the fan fiction, no elf has a defence of superiority to even the weakest of the Maiar and other Ainur! In the first age even Sauron's mere presence was enough to scare and flee Orodreth and his fellow High Noldor Elven warriors who used to guard Tol-Sirion. And these high elven warriors seen the light of the two trees but they couldn't bear Sauron's dark presence and fled in fear towards the South
I think you're missing an important point. Sauron's strength grew as he recovered from his defeat at the beginning of the Third Age, and seemed to grow especially quickly in the months leading up to the War of the Ring. Tolkien references this several times. When Bilbo found the Ring, Sauron was not yet as strong as he became at the time of the War of the Ring. The same thing with the Nazgul. Tolkien clearly stated in the Letters that the Witch King who entered the gates of Minas Tirith was much stronger than the Nazgul who sought the hobbits in the Shire only a short time before. Yes, the places where the Ring was worn were important, but time was also a factor.
I always assumed that in the films only sauron perceived frodo on amon hen because of the amplification of the sight that the magical seat of seeing gave him
The books frequently make reference to the fact that when Sauron lost the ring, he lost a great deal of his power and it took him a long time to get it back. He has to build it back up slowly. This is one reason why the Nazgûl are not unleashed (again) on Middle Earth until early in The Fellowship- Sauron lacks the power to direct them. I always thought he couldn’t “see” Bilbo wearing the ring in The Hobbit, at least in part because his own power was weak. Once his power level reaches a sort of critical mass, it seems to accelerate much more rapidly, enabling him to sense when someone puts on the ring. I think the physical proximity of the ring plays into it too.
In addition to that, he was trying to build up his power in secret, which means that his power can't grow as quickly as it otherwise could. Just as Gandalf starting a fire in the Misty Mountains with magic proclaimed, "GANDALF IS HERE!" to all with eyes to see it, Sauron openly growing his powers would have made a similar proclamation at a time when there were those who could challenge him openly. After the White Council learned the truth and drove him from Mirkwood, he fled to Mordor, fortified himself in that land (the preparations had begun long before he arrived) and openly declared himself. This let him grow in power much more rapidly since there was no longer any need to hide himself.
@@areoborg I like the idea that magic is something that leaves great waves around for people who know what to look for can see. Has a real fabric-of-the-realm feel to it.
Great content... it's interesting to see differences between the books and movie highlighted. I don't mind some creative liberties being taken by Peter Jackson, as Cinema is a very different medium from Books. Tolkien rewrote and revised his work so many times, to improve it and reach the high level of detail in his books... I wonder how many times he reread his own work?
Sam at Cirith Ungol was in Mordor's backyard, and Sauron didn't sense when he put it on. Maybe Sauron sensed it at Mount Doom because that's where it was forged.
@@ItsSVO Yeah, I think Frodo putting on the ring in Mordor was more of a risk to his health than being spotted. Although, they kind of go hand in hand in the books. The more he deteriorated mentally, probably the easier it would be to get caught. Like that time he was walking straight at the Witch King at that big tower or whatever. That might have been a film thing though, played up for drama. It's been a while since I read the books. Sam didn't have that problem when he put it on, it being the first time and him having such a high resistance to it. (And even he had a little voice inside of him tempting him.)
i always just thought it was because the time between bilbo giving up the ring and frodo putting it on was like a decade and in that time Sauron had recovered more of his strength enough for his sight to reach the shire
The book scene where Frodo is just looking around completely unknown until he looks at Mordor and Sauron looks right back is so damn scary. I think the film handled it well but that description is so great
Thank you for this video. Didn't read the book, but knowing the truth, I like the book's take. It was really jarring how much Sauron would seem to know and then be completely oblivious to. The true version would instead add a sense of desperation to Sauron. He's very much fighting for his life as well.
Always found it a bit strange that the Fellowship need to use stealth to get to Mordor and bank on Sauron believing the Ring is elsewhere when Sauron and his forces have seen Frodo use the ring a couple of times now.
A few did see him but when they are chasing or watching from a distance they can’t tell Frodo apart from the others. So seeing Gandalf transport a hobbit to the HQ of humans makes it look awfully like the humans are getting the ring to safety and a place they can hold out.
Two things are established In the movies. 1. Gandalf says "it has sense it's master's call" meaning that previously the ring was sort of "inactive" or disconnected from Sauron. 2. Saurons power was greatly diminished after being defeated by Isildur, and it took him since that battle all the way to the fellowship to gather his strength, so during the hobbit and previously he was not present enough to sense the ring.
And also in the movies it is told that "the ring has a will of its own" "something happened that it did not expect" referring to being picked up by Bilbo. So the ring, having no master to exact will over it and being outsmarted does not call out as it does later when it has sensed that its master has grown in power and can wield it. It wants to be taken to mordor
The Amon Hen part has me wonder if it's like in reality, you can kind of sense someone is watching or looking at you in the same room. You can almost always catch someone at some point looking at you and you make eye contact. It could be Sauron catching Frodo like that. Except "magical."
Kia Ora - hello and good health - from Aotearoa/New Zealand and Happy 2024 :) Soo happy i found this link. i thought i was a well-read Tolkien geek yet have learned sooo much while enjoying the quality tale telling and wonderful art. :). Awesome, very best wishes and please keep up the wonderful effort.
The passage describing Sauron as he realizes that Frodo has put on the ring in mount doom is hands down one of the best pieces of text I've ever come across.
In the movies, I always thought Sauron could see Frodo and not previous wearers because his power had been growing recently and his return to worldly form was nearly complete.
As someone who has never been able to read the books due to a hard case of ADHD, I am so happy to have learned of this as it makes me appreciate the movies even more. Knowing that Sauron could not ever even have known Frodo and Sam were in his realm makes so much more sense, even more so later when Frodo puts it on before struggling with Gollum. I would argue that in the case of the movies, they could not incorporate the chair scene without it feeling out of place and so they probably opted for a more direct reveal in the Inn. It does make a little less sense in context now tho but knowing what was behind the idea, it makes sense again. The depth this world, these books and even movies have is fascinating to this day.
it's simple when bilbo still had the ring sauron was not strong enough to detect the ring bearer that's why. frodo got the ring when he was 22 and he left on his quest when he was 44 20 eyars pased from when biblo had it.
Honestly, Sauron's magic couldn't break through the thick cloud of Bilbo's pipeweed smoke.
"I was gonna spot Bilbo, but then I got high"
@@skylarc6063 "I was go raid Hobbiton, but then I got high"
That Longbottomleaf is too strong. I wanna hang out in the south farthing. Get that good good.
>.
Sauron's love of the halfling's leaf has slowed his mind
Appreciate the final note. Even readers of the books sometimes overlook that Aragorn, as much as Frodo and Sam, is responsible for the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron. It was he who at the perfect time revealed and announced himself via the Orthanc seeing stone. It was the combination of Sauron seeing Frodo with the Ring at Amon Hen, the following silence of Saruman and rumors of his defeat, the folly of Pippin in using the Palantir and being interrogated by Sauron all culminating in Aragorn revealing himself via the Palantir and implying that he was the one responsible for all of this. Sauron assumed that Aragorn had the Hobbit who was known to have possessed the Ring, and therefore had taken the Ring himself. He was near Amon Hen, so he had brought the Ring south. He was using the Orthanc Palantir, so he had already defeated Saruman, Sauron’s strongest ally. And then to top it all off, he withstood Sauron’s will (barely), taunted him with Narsil reforged (the sword that cut the Ring from his finger), and then wrested the control of the Palantir away from Sauron as its true and rightful owner, proving that he was an heir of Elendil.
This was a killer combo blow to Sauron’s ego and confidence, and fixated his attention on Aragorn who he knew would make his way to Gondor. It’s why he attacked Minas Tirith. It’s why he emptied Minas Morgul just after Sam, Frodo, and Gollum had passed it. It’s why he never considered nor discovered that his enemies might be attempting to destroy the Ring in the only way it could be destroyed. And Aragorn played up the illusion right to the Black Gate, moments before Gollum fell with the Ring into the fires of Doom. Too late Sauron realized that he had been played masterfully not by Gandalf, or Elrond, or Galadriel, but by Aragorn.
Well said!
Holy moly! I'd never realised!!
Let's take a moment of silence to be thankful that Nicolas Cage did *not* play Aragorn.
@@darchangel2136 Uff
@@darchangel2136ouch
Both times Sauron noticed the ring-wearer, the ring-wearer was trying to do more than hide. At Amon Hen, probably unwittingly, Frodo was trying to exert his will; at Sammath Naur he was claiming the ring for his own. In all other cases, Smeagol, Bilbo, and Frodo were actively thinking of *not* being noticed.
This is a super interesting thought
Great thought. Almost all of the wearers, nearly every time they wore it, were using the Ring for invisibility and hiding, which was a random side effect of it. Rather than its true purpose, which is dominating other life.
Frodo even asks Galadriel this, and why he hasn't heard the thoughts or seen into the minds of the wearers of the Three for instance. She tells him, "You have not tried. Do not try!" That was good advice on many levels.
Outstanding
I was actually thinking that as well. In Amon Hen, he is using it to see far, at Sammath Naur he claims it for his own. Except for the time Gollum takes it for the first time and at the cracks of doom, he doesn’t claim it, merely uses it to hide.
I was going to say, he only sees Frodo at mount Doom after Frodo claims the one ring as his own. If he had put on the ring inside Mordor he would have shown up in the spirit realm and, although not necessarily a beacon in the dark, he would stand if Sauron looked at him.
Props to the films for making that eye look so damn epic. It was such a well done visual interpretation of an idea.
they watched Thundercats as kids...
I agree. I have many a bone to pick with the adaptation from book to film, but they captured a lot of the stuff well. I was blown away by their depiction of Minas Tirith. Most of their scenery was done incredibly well. Don't remember any snowy mountains planted right in the heart of the Shire lol, but who's counting?
One of the few things the Hobbit movie did right was how they revealed Sauron's eye and the humanoid silhouette. Looked cool. I don't really like the overall context or sequences but there were a few.
Robert, this is quite possibly the best LotR channel ever. Everything is interesting and fresh and your voice is perfect. Well done!
A bit of additional theorizing: It's well understood the Ring grants power to the bearer based on the measure of power the bearer already possesses. A hobbit putting on the Ring and going invisible (shifting to the Unseen realm) would do little to attract Sauron's attention, but if Gandalf (for example) were to put on the Ring, especially if he were to *claim* it, he would likely attract Sauron's attention immediately no matter where in Middle-earth Gandalf was.
There is also the fact of the Ring corrupting its holder. A lot of people would be tempted to use its power for Good or for Evil and inevitably gain power and renown. Such actions cause ripples even to the regular populace and would get Sauron's attention much quicker than the more low-key use of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo using it in quiet and remote locations. You can even see that when Frodo messed up in Bree, it quite immediately became a popular topic of the town and the Nine were notified.
While there might not be a magical GPS on the Ring, the temptation of its power alone would cause attention to be drawn to it. As much as Sauron wanted to find the Ring, the Ring also wanted to be found and get back to Sauron.
This explanation is very strong and well supported throughout Tolkien’s writing. I don’t mean explicitly - I mean, this explanation is the best one that you’d get by various inferences from explanations peppered throughout Tolkien’s legendarium. Cheers!
I agree, the best explanation and makes the most sense when Frodo claims it in Mt Doom and Sauron is alerted.
This is exactly my idea. Hobbits don't get enough power from the ring to become the big glowing magic beacons that every other species becomes when they hold it.
I would think that the intent of using it would matter as well. Since bilbo and frodo almost always used it to hide, then such an effect would be magnified, even against its master.
When it was put on in Mt. Doom, it was done so from a place of domination and claiming mastery over it. And since there can only be one lord of the Ring, that alerted Sauron.
"The magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash" has always been one of my favorite lines from literature.
I love how it is portrayed in the movie as well. That pure look of surprise and terror as sauron realizes that the ring is behind him in the one place he doesn't want it to be.
And I love how that entire line basically just translates to "Oh shit"
It was at this moment that he knew... He f'd up
@klaykid117 same. I love the way the Eye frantically and feverishly looks left and right in sheer desperation, hoping for one last chance to save himself (himself being Sauron, obviously lol) and realising just how badly he had misunderstood what his foes plans were.
That eye has more emotion in those few seconds than some films have throughout their entire runtime.😂
I felt so bad for Sauron...
bilbo is just too chill
chillbo
yeah except for that one time he wasn't chill and gave millions of children nightmares across the lands
... did you read the book? Kinda the whole point is that Bilbo is very much not chill.
More simply, for the entire time Gollum and Bilbo possessed the ring, they didn't know what it was. They could thus not exert their own oppositional consciousness (willful resistance to its evil) while bearing it. This is likely what 'woke up' Sauron and enabled him to sense it, if only in a general way at first. Once he did learn there was another conscious person in control of the ring seeking to oppose Sauron's will, he progressively became more able to sense it.
@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat I mean he is kinda chill in the trilogy, not so in the hobbit
I love that Sauron was clueless until just the end. When Aragorn arrived in Gondor and heard Sam and Frodo were likely in Mordor by then, his first thought was to walk his @$$ right up to the front gates. He knew Sauron would assume there was no way a MAN would be so brazen UNLESS he had The One Ring. Played him like a fiddle! 🎻
This is very carefully, very precisely, and very well explained. I applaud your performance.
At Amon Hen, the book phrases it as more that Sauron noticed Frodo watching him, rather than the other way around. Sauron didn’t see the amplified ring so much as feel he was being watched, and so turned to look at who was watching him. There’s a good chance the ring would not even be necessary to attract his attention that way, similarly to the palantiri
Exactly. And this is a trick used in so many fantasy worlds. Where veteran mages or creatures with affinity for magic can easily sense when someone is watching them from afar using magic, and the more ancient or stronger beings are able to locate where they are being watched from, who's watching them and sometimes even mess with the head of the watchers.
@@Donivar im pretty sure harry potter has exactly that
@@Donivar "When one gazes into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."
Tolkien would have read Nietzsche. It's a common theme in fantasy, the slow descent of he who fights with monsters to become a monster himself, but fantasy writers sometime makes it more literal.
Man the books are so incredibly nuanced in this way. I re-read them recently and was BLOWN AWAY by how masterfully Tolkien described supernatural/magical stuff. It's also why every epic fantasy just pales compared to Tolkien. Black Riders in Fellowship of the Ring have to be one of the coolest creatures ever thought of in history of literature. The movies somehow have them as some ring-zombies - while the books paint them as truly horrifying not because of their appearance but methodical, almost detective-like hunt of the Hobbits. And after they stab Frodo - movies switch to the chase and make it so that Arwen just outrun them - but in the books - they just fell back and waited, knowing there's no chance for Frodo to survive. They casually made an ambush at the ford, and only because of combined powers of Elrond and Gandalf Frodo scrapes through, barely.
The same goes for Sauron, Balrog even Saruman, movies just paint them all too black and white and dare I say a bit cartoon-ish. But the books have that aura they irradiate, their towering presence, you feel their immense power through Tolkien's masterfully chosen words and scenes. And that gets me to your comment - the way he did the whole scene of Frodo and Sauron - it's like that stereotypical nightmare where you think you are safe, but you're not. You feel you are watching someone, hiding from them, maybe, and you observe them, hoping you are safe, thinking "there's no way they see me" and they just turn and look you in the eye. Masterful.
@@TheTrooper9169666
Are you exaggerating or are you this much of a fanboy normally?
It seems like sensing Frodo at Mount doom could be because Frodo “claimed” the ring and it’s power for his own. As other comments have pointed out, Sauron didn’t notice when Sam put on the ring in Mordor, so that goes against him being able to sense it in his own land.
So Sauron only felt the Ring’s presence when someone actively tried to control and use its power. Which does explain why he never sensed it with all the other ring bearers. Gollum and other bearers only used it to be invisible, which seems to be a passive effect of wearing the ring. None of them actively tried to use the ring for any other purpose, so it’s true power, Sauron’s power, wasn’t being used and therefore he couldn’t sense it.
Makes sense, actifley claiming the ring acually activates the power within it, so of course Sauron would sense that. Kind of ironic if Borromir HAD gotten the Ring and claim it, Sauron would have found it and probably gotten his hands on it, as even if the others would have bein able to kill him before he could do any harm, now Sauron would know where to look.
@AskMia: Yes, that's how I always understood it.
We know that four beings are turned invisible by wearing the One Ring - Smeagol/Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise. Three of them are Hobbits and the fourth is Hobbit-like, if not an actual Hobbit. And it's suggestive that one of the things we learn about Hobbits is that they have a knack of disappearing when Big Folk are about, so it's plausible that the Ring is enhancing a natural talent.
We know that Sauron is not invisible when wearing the One Ring. We also know that Tom Bombadil is unaffected by the Ring, though he isn't exactly evidence for anything except himself.
We also know that wearing the Ring makes Hobbits more visible to the Nazgul, and allows them to see the spirit realm.
What the One Ring would do as a passive effect for Elves, Dwarves, or Men is open for speculation.
@@rmsgrey the ring would take anyone that isn’t immortal into the shadow realm and them appear invisible to those in the normal realm. The reason the Nazgûl are invisible is because they full succumbed to their own rings. The wraiths were once men themselves therefore we know the effect the ring would have on them.
@@ItsSVO We know the effect those Rings had on the Nazgul when they fully succumbed to them. We don't know whether that effect applied for just wearing them before succumbing, nor whether the Ruling Ring would have had the same effect. Though Men and Hobbits are close enough kin that it's not implausible for them to be affected the same way.
We also know that the Dwarven Rings had little or no discernible effect on their Dwarvish wearers, so at least some mortals wore some of the Nineteen without turning invisible.
I love this channel so much; please keep up the great work!
This channel is such a nice surprise. It always warms my heart, when i see someone share my deep love and appreciaton for Tolkien's work!
Thanks for this. Just noticed something that I hadn't before ... the parallel between Sammath Naur and Gandalf speaking to Theoden at Edoras: "The Dark Lord knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung" ; Gandalf says to Theoden "Doom hangs still upon a thread" (and added IIRC in the radio play: "it is, I fear, the merest thread")
Well done!! You are spot on! I’m impressed that you separate the movies from what was actually written. Too many other people try to be an LOR expert and only quote the movies!!
What’s even more telling is that right after Frodo removes the ring on Amon Hen, he feels that the gaze of the Eye has moved on and the treat is now gone. Feeling that it is now save for him to do so, he puts the ring back on without any fear of Sauron noticing him.
Yep - once he was off of the seat. Good point.
I went to the movie theatre to see the new Trolls movie but they didn't have tickets. There was a vendor outside who was getting angry because a man was undercutting them on carrots. He was selling whole bags of carrots for 8.99 which was a really big deal, but people didn't want to buy the fish from the vendor with the carrot guy in the way. They were in a really heated argument when I left the theatre but I didn't stop to ask what was wrong. I hope everything is alright with you bro. I hope you are getting everything you need in life.
I've also carried a bit of a headcannon that the seat somehow manages to connect to Sauron's seeing stone. We know very little about the stones and how they work, so it's possible that while Saruman was distracted by building his army, he wasn't with his stone when the group made their stop.
Maybe the magic of the seat, which has the power of letting you see far off places, was designed to connect to or be used at the same time as a seeing stone
Didn't Gandalf do something at that point to attract the eye to himself? I seem to remember the terrifying gaze went past Amon Hen to look at a light in the distance.
I think the second time Sauron realises that Frodo has the ring at the cracks of doom is more down to the fact that Frodo claims the ring as his own, a challenge to Sauron's authority.
Correct. The ring is a character in itself. It *wanted* to be found. It *escaped* Gollum as much as Bilbo found it. It calls to its master. It seeks to bend the will of anyone who has it.
It knows who its master is (and will not willingly serve another). To be claimed by Frodo would have shaken it, bent it, and it cried out in agony such that it was impossible for Sauron to not hear it.
the correct answer
@@theevermindThat's the one thing that always bugged me with the movies. In the movies it is told that the ring did not intend to be found by Bilbo…
@@EarMaster55 Because it didn't, Bilbo just happened to be there and picked it up.
@@EarMaster55 It's essentially implied that Bilbo stumbling upon the Ring against all odds, and even against the Ring's will itself is a twist of fate/act of god
I love all of the old drawings you use instead of just lazily using clips and freeze frames from the movies over and over.
Because Tolkien hadn’t decided Bilbo’s Ring was The One yet… seriously though he never sensed Frodo or Gollum so I don’t understand the question.
Let us not forget the other obvious thing, which is that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit the ring had an entirely different purpose in the story. It was a wondrous tool that enabled Bilbo's character growth from timid homebody to take-charge adventurer. Tolkien's bit of retconning of the ring when he decided to write a sequel would inevitably leave some inconsistencies. It is, of course, a great tribute to the consistency of Tolkien's world building that fans will find logical rationales for elements that don’t perfectly harmonize between the two works.
Except Tolkien actually heavily edited the Hobbit to retcon it into LotR verse, just did pretty poor job at it (fun fact, Hobbit originally had goblin tanks - yes, as in war machines)...
It you notice inconsistencies in Tolkien's world, it's because what you are reading is actually a collection of true histories and ancient legends pieced together. Right?
Got a North American second printing sitting right here (albeit an extremely beat up one), and can confirm that it's definitely not written as Sauron's one ring
The Hobbit was a kids story with countless treasures and named weapons and the rings of power which were always left intentionally vague. The arkenstone was all the buzz then Tolkien realised just how useless the stone was so he had to do something lol. I'm glad he did
That's why, even though yes LoTRs is a sequel to the Hobbit, it is much closer to The Silmarillion in terms of tone, scope, etc.
Great video. My interpretation was always that the invisibility was a passive power of the ring that everyone got and was so low level it didn’t echo that far (but did light you up in the spirit world). When Frodo gets caught he’s actively using the ring to enhance his own power (reaching out with his vision, actively claiming the ring which revitalized his). This made a much louder “noise” that Sauron could hear. Frodo knows he can use the ring that way, he asked himself if he’s strong enough to take on the witch king when he sees his army past and decides “not yet”.
I like to think invisibility is just what the ring gives you when you're trying to hide or flee (Bilbo, Isildur) or sneak around (Smeagol). The Ring passively gives you what you need without thinking about it, but because these people are non-magical, they just assume that "Oh! It made me invisible! It's an invisibility ring!" and from then on assume that it's an invisibility ring, so when they put it on they're always manipulating it towards invisibility. Frodo thinks the same from Bilbo. It's when he uses the ring to 'see' the world that he begins to realise it's other powers, which he likely only realises due to being in a magical place and because other people have told him the ring has other powers. There's no reason he couldn't be manipulating the ring in other ways, but people who aren't magical don't treat it that way.
I'm not sure it's about a "loud" noise, so much as it's about Frodo literally just looks straight at Sauron in his tower. Sauron is magical, he can tell when someone is spying on him. I'm not sure he realises at that moment that it's the Ring being used. I don't think he actually knows the exact location of the ring at any point until Frodo claims it in Mount Doom. Because if he knows the ring is there, surely he'd send the Nazgul to scour the Dead Marshes and the lands near there and try and find the ring. But he doesn't. He actually doesn't do anything to try and recover the ring until Pippin uses the Palantir and Sauron mistakes him for Frodo and thinks he has the ring. If he knows the Ring has been used at Amon Hen, surely all his efforts would immediately be devoted to retrieving it. So no, I don't believe he has any clue that the Ring is at Amon Hen. He just knows someone is spying on him. He probably assumes it's one of the wizards, or a very bold elf. He might be curious about it, but he certainly doesn't think the One Ring is there, and pays little attention to it. As soon as he thinks Pippin has it in Rohan, he freaks out thinking the Gondorians are going to claim it and use it against him and instantly starts taking action to recover it. I see no reason why this wouldn't have been his response at Amon Hen if he realised.
As someone who only read the Hobbit, but not the lotr books as a child and then only watched the lotr movies, I find your videos to be a very enjoyable way of better getting to know the world of Tolkien. Also, that calm voice is super relaxing to listen to. Thanks for you videos, keep it up!
Whats stopping you from reading them
@@e33d90They are books, and who really reads out of enjoyment?
@@KarlTiti many many people
@@KarlTiti incredible analysis
@@leespn4396 Thank you
From the way it’s presented in the book, it’s apparent that Frodo is falling under Sauron’s spell at Amon Hen, and that is what is meant by him “seeing” him. He is getting dangerously close to becoming a wraith, as suggested by him saying “Verily, I come unto thee”, before he snaps out of it.
Seen the films a dozen times, only just listening the Andy Serkis audio reading. This explains a lot, thank you.
That part where Sauron notices Frodo at Amon Hen is one of the most terrifying moments
Imagine the perspective of this. I live on a massive hill with a city in the distance and I’m just imagining the tallest tower just growing and growing until it stares at me and petrifies and startles me
just imagine standing in the docks and suddenly a big ship approaches docks. this is literally the same feeling of power, size and might.@@legomastermaniac
Me 22 years ago: wow this is really scary
Me now: wow i want to know what the foley artists and audio engineers did
If Sauron noticed me, it would be terrifying for him.
And, equally fascinating, that Gandalf happened to be aware of the encounter during his ethereal rebirth and was able to intercede on Frodo’s behalf.
I just started reading the Hobbit again and I had the exact same thought of how close the Ring was to Sauron when Bilbo was traveling through Mirkwood. I'd forgotten that Amon Hen was a mystical place. Good explanation!
I also always felt the chair on Amon Hen only worked for Frodo because he was wearing the Ring - I think Aragorn might have used its far-seeing powers, but like many of Tolkien's magic items, it grants power according to its wielders own. Frodo, without the power boost of wearing the One Ring, probably would only have enjoyed a nice vista from a high place, instead of seeing visions of faraway lands.
Aragorn couldn't see when he was in the chair.
In the Movies Gandalf says the Ring has “heard it’s masters call” which I always thought was the reason why it started acting like a beacon.
Tolkien"s magic may be "famously soft," but I have never felt like it contradicted itself. I think it's the perfect way to do fantasy. And here we are, figuring out the rules to the magic and making sense of it without a great deal of mental gymnastics. Weirdly, the spiritual nature of LotR is what makes it make sense.
Cause we are in a spiritual world and war, these kind of worlds resonates with us.
Same reason love, honor, peace, hope, faith and courage resonate with us.. we were made to be connected to God and to have communion with Him, that's why He sent Jesus Christ to save us and bring us back to Himself, and grant us Victory in this obvious spiritual war through Him, and to more than conquerors through Christ who strengthens us.
Always felt that Sauron could see Frodo in Mordor because Frodo actually claimed the ring and in a sense tried to wield it. Also perhaps because it was the birthplace of the ring.
Isn't it said somewhere that the Ring is at its most powerful in Mount Doom? That'd be a good explanation, beyond the whole "Sauron's Domain" thing.
100% he claiming it was part of it.
Yes I was going to point this out as well. Þhe act of claiming the ring was the act of taking the power as frodos and I think it would had to have shaken him. Also the fact suron was finally at full power maybe allowed him to sense more then he had in all the years he couldn't take form and was building his power up again. Thanks just an opinion nothing more
I thought that as well. Maybe they could have sensed it if it had been used in the more casual way it is other places, but I think not in the same, way as Frodo claiming it as his.
You might have always felt that because that’s the words that are in the book. When Frodo claimed the ring Sauron felt it and was finally able to pierce the protections he had placed on the ring. You felt that way cuz you fucking read it.
I remember something about Sam wearing the Ring right after Shelob. While sneaking around he was keenly aware of the gaze of Sauron and knew that if he so much as glanced his direction he would instantly be found. The detection cone of the eye was basically visible to him, even through solid stone and iron, and he knew it was only the fact that Sauron had no idea that he was there that kept him alive.
well pointed, im reading the other comments and there are a few others asking why couldnt sauron see sam...
my personal question is could sauron tell if it was HIS ring, or just A ring of power.
@@CloudWalkBeta Sauron and his servants are drawn to the One Ring alone, just like Gollum.
Sam might be a bit of a special case. Since he has no thirst for power and also it was his first time wearing it. He was able to just barely go unnoticed for a little while.
That's how I see it anyway.
@@ToneSherpaI think this, along with the fact that Aragorn was actively bringing a fight to Sauron’s front door definitely helped Sam sneak past everything.
When Sam put on the ring after Shelob, he was still on the Ithilien side of the pass, so technically outside of Mordor proper. Once he crosses the pass into Mordor in search of Frodo and the tower entrance, he is aware that Sauron would probably see him if he put on the ring now. "'And anyway all these notions are only a trick,' he said to himself. 'He'd spot me, pretty quick, if I put the Ring on now, in Mordor. Well, all I can say is: things look as hopeless as a frost in spring. Just when being invisible would be really useful, I can't use the Ring! And if ever I get any further, it's going to be nothing but a drag and a burden every step. So what's to be done?'" (from "The Tower of Cirith Ungol," chapter 1 of book six, "The Return of the King").
When listenin to the speculation and ideas about how Sauron saw Frodo while he was in the seat my first thought was a quote, “He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”. He used the magic chair and gazed at Sauron, who was able to sense it and gazed right back. He would have sensed Frodo regardless of if he had the ring on at that moment, kinda like how Sauramon found and ended up getting corrupted by Sauron when he used his palantír.
Thanks!
The movie version, while different from the books, sets this up as simply that Sauron hadn't finished regenerating and building the tower yet.
The scene on Amon Hen was tremendously important, for there we see the entire scope of The War of the Ring--something the movies sadly missed out on. BTW, the Welsh story of Pwyll and Rhiannon involves a storied and magical seat that allows one to see marvels.
Good point!
I remember in the book when Sam put on the ring in the -Morgul- _Ungol_ tower and Sauron not sensing him (despite Sam wearing it for presumably hours), and it was said that Sauron's darkness over the Morgul Veil was so thick that even he could not see what happened within.
I thought it was because the ring wasn't actively searching for Sauron back in Bilbo's time. It was dormant, and Sauron himself was still somewhat diminished. It wasn't until he became stronger that both the Nazgul and his ring became more active.
The ring escaped Gollum because Sauron was starting to take form (as the Necro). Tolkien never really says it outright but it's pretty safe to assume Sauron didn't notice Bilbo because he was still weak, and too busy hiding and preparing his re-emergence in Mordor.
@@TheNagrothI thought that was the well known story
@@TheNagroththe eye hasn’t even existed at that time
@@TheNagroth that's at least how the movie interprets it.
@@TheNagroth We have a seven day gap between Bilbo claiming the Ring and Gandalf going off to purge Dol Goldur (12 July T.A. 2941 - 19 July T.A. 2941). My guess is he realized the White Council was coming for him and he was distracted with finalizing his preparations in Mordor to consider the Ring.
That is some beautiful art-work, much respect to you for linking to the creators!
I always feel that adapting a book scene by scene, line by line to the screen is asking for a disaster, and I feel like the LotR trilogy is as perfect a book-to-movie adaptation as I've seen.
So yes, creating that sense of danger by making Frodo visible makes sense; I always thought that while Bilbo was wearing it, Sauron wasn't searching for somebody wearing it, on the logic that if somebody had found it, they would have quickly put it on and either gone stark raving mad, or taken over by the ring, or made a bit for world domination, or a mix thereof.
I think Gandalf even said that at some point: It would never occur to Sauron that somebody might _not_ use the ring.
My first thought at the book version of Frodo becoming visible - btw, I very much enjoyed your reading of it! - was: he is in a magical place, one that connects to other places, and that magic makes him visible. And I love that hint at his will not being under his own control, the contrast between the protest he wants to speak, and the obedient answer he _may_ be speaking.
And yes, that "you fool" is pretty much Gandal's calling card, in-offical slogan and go-to hobbit endearment.
Very helpful in understanding how Bilbo could use it so much. Thank you!
I think the main reason why Sauron couldn't sense Bilbo is because Sauron simply haven't recovered enough strength to do so. He was surviving to gain power and not focussing on the ring yet. As stated in the book and seen in the Hobbit trilogy, Sauron was a mere shadow and at times he was seen as a different foe (the necromancer) in the eyes of Gandalf, Galadriel, Saruman and Elrond. It's not until the second movie they sense that dark energy is indeed Sauron who has gained a lot of his strength back.
that or the ring, as a device, was optimized for humans, elves and dwarves and it took all those years with Bilbo to calibrate it for a new species. Could be argued Gollum also helped to teach the ring to see species not in the original design.
i completely disagree. nothing drastically changed with regards to sauron's personal power and strength over the 70ish years between the hobbit and the war of the ring. sauron is a timeless, patient force operating over spans of thousands of years. EXCEPT for the fact that sauron learns that the ring has been found by some baggins guy living in some place called the shire (after having captured gollum in mordor and interogating him). he then basically goes into panic mode and sends out the nazgul to search for the ring, while launching the attack on gondor as basically a decoy to allow the nazgul to cross the anduin, right under gondor's nose. if it hadn't been for gollum spilling the beans to sauron, the whole assault could have been postponed by centuries.
i'd say he sensed frodo, and not bilbo, simply because he was fully focusing on finding the ring by the time of the lord of the rings, whereas during the hobbit, he thought the ring to be lost and was busy with his standard order of the day (scheming, planning and slowly building up his strength and armies to eventually take over middle earth). the fact that he moved from dol guldur to mordor during these 70 years didn't suddenly make him 10x more powerful, at least not him personally
This is the main reason. Sauron is still (mostly) asleep, barely awake, finally awakening after his great defeat at the end of the 2nd age. When Sauron is awake enough to *really* start actively leading again, it is different and he is much more aware.
@@duki4631 That is like saying that nothing diminished Saruman when Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff and then again moreso after his final fall in the Shire.
Or, that Gandalf after his death and return was merely the same.
@@nctpti2073 don't really get what you're aiming at. i just wanted to say that sauron had been regaining power for 3000 years up to that point, and nothing accelerated that dramatically in as little as 70 years between the hobbit and the lotr. he just learned about the ring and sprang into action
Wow, voice acting and emotion from Robert! That was a striking performance!
Excellent explanation, as always. Personally, I always considered that during the Hobbit, Sauron was not in his Eye form, thuns lacked the power to spot the ring. Only after reforming, Sauron could cast his gaze and spot Frodo.
IIRC, Sauron was not a disembodied fiery eyeball in the books. He was physical, but was stuck in a form that was evil-looking, unable to shapeshift. Gollum mentioned the Dark Lord having a finger missing.
In the books, the Eye was pretty much a heraldic symbol and a metaphor, as the bear symbolizes Russia.
@@OhioCoastie94 That's correct; Sauron regained a physical form, perhaps as early as around year 1000 of the 3rd Age but his form still lacked the one finger that Isildur cut off.
How is it that I never noticed the symmetry of both Frodo and Sauron ending up with 9 fingers?
@@wereoctopus Pretty clever author, that Tolkien fellow.
@@OhioCoastie94Sauron was stuck in an evil form without being able to shapeshift ever since the destruction of Numinor, that form was destroyed by the last alliance when his finger and ring were removed. During the war of the ring he had a physical body but without the power of the ring he couldn’t get it back to a strong form, his body was weak and frail which is why he hid in the tower
Good analysis. I think most folks who've watched the movies but not read the books (or read the books so much!) probably have forgotten that Sauron's ability to sense the Ring-wearer is very different in each. It's a change that works in the movies I think, much better than if Frodo were to put in the Ring and feel nothing special.
Imagine how pissed Sauron was when he learned not only it was a hobbit holding the ring, but doing it like 2 miles away from his necromancy castle.
Lest we forget, in the films, when Pippin looked into the Palantir and met Sauron’s gaze, it’s noted by Merry that his removal from Rohan with Gandalf is because “The enemy thinks you have the Ring!” I think this is further evidence that Sauron’s information is that some halfling has the One Ring, and not that he specifically knows whom, like a GPS signal, but that through his spies, he’s aware that a hobbit has it. I’m working my way through the books at the moment but I think this is an important detail.
His orcs know they are looking for Hobbits carrying something important to the war.
@@JoshuaLivie Saruman's uruks lol
I just want to say, I love your videos. Thank you.
Oh and Sam is my favorite. He lived a happy life.
I always thought that Frodo CLAIMING the ring was the key thing. Even Gollum never really "claimed" the ring...the ring had claimed him. "The Precious." But when Frodo CLAIMED the ring it was a direct challenge to Sauron in the same way that Aragorn revealing his Kingship was a challenge to Sauron...albeit an intentional one.
Correct.
Yeaaaaa let's just ignore the 50,000 times Gollum said "My" Precious lol
@@rumfordc that’s Gollum lamenting over the ring as a possession, not him claiming the ring for himself in the way Frodo does.
When Frodo claims the ring it alerts the other rings of power, 13 of which Sauron currently has in his possession. Just like the rings alerted the elves when Sauron claimed the one thousands of years prior, the same happens here only the roles are different.
@@rumfordcI might liken it to someone standing next to a Lamborghini and saying it’s theirs vs someone with a key hopping in it and attempting to drive off in it claiming it was theirs.
Like addictions, who really owns who, in Gollums case, the Ring owned him. He lacked concept of what it was he actually had.
I'm not ignoring that at all... I'm saying Smeagol/Gollum never claimed the Ring "as his"...rather quite the opposite: he was the Ring's. Hence why Frodo made him "swear by the Ring." The Ring owned Gollum, not the other way around.
When for whatever reason I feel anxiety in life I come to this channel and the magic of childhood memories reading these books transports me to that safe place. I dressed up as Frodo for a summer Halloween thing we have in Spain in the summer of 2000 or 2001 when the general public who didn´t read the books weren´t aware of Tolkien and it was refreshing. I dressed up as a half-ass Legolas (no bow nor wig) and it was ridiculous. Still, I got laid that night ;)
THANK YOU for differentiating between the interpretations of the movies and books because the books can have vastly different interpretations from the movies and that doesn’t make the movies or books worse the movies needed their own interpretations to make it watchable
Love your LotR content
It's some of the most knowledgeable, informative, concise, and well crafted explanations of the stories of Arda I've ever come across.
As usual, I love your LotR rings.
I do have one more suggestion as to why Frodo and the ring were sensed in Mount Doom: it is (also) because Frodo actively claimed the Ring at the moment he put it on. Frodo was actually vying to be the master of the Ring then and I see that as a real trigger.
I think another aspect may also be awareness. Sauron wasnt aware of the people inherently but it would make sense he would be more easily able to notice a user if he both knew who to look for a roughly where
9.14 Absolutely BRILLIANT insight! Bravo.
It's just because the eye can see when there's reach of sight. You can see that even in Mordor, when in the blind sight of rocks eye searches. As so at the Amon Hen.
Not astral projection, just eyesight.
This is amazing. I applaud your dedication to explaining this for us to understand & to Mr. Tolkien for creating such in-depth worlds.
The scene at Amon Hen seems quite reminiscent of how Sauron was able to ensnare Saruman through their palantiri. In both cases, the magically-enhanced nature of the other person's sight allowed Sauron to quickly become aware of it, and created a sort of link that he could exploit in reverse. Frodo's reaction to Sauron at Amon Hen seems like he fears being dominated in a similar way to how Saruman was. Obviously, the biggest factor in Frodo not being caught was his rapidly taking off the ring and leaving the seat, but there's also the factor that Amon Hen doesn't have any underlying connection to Barad Dur or anything in it, whereas all the palantiri were inherently linked.
It’s a place of seeing, but not one of the great places of seeing.
saruman dared to attempt to probe the thought of sauron. that's how gandalf surmised he became ensnared.
The Palantiri were instrumental in Sauron corrupting both Sarumon and Boromir's father the Steward by whispering falsities into his ears while he was using the Palantir in the Palace. I also believe the reason why Sauron couldn't sense that his ring was being used was because at Dolgul Dor he was only able to see a certain area of mirk wood where at the top of Baradh Dur he was able to see miles using the Palantir of Minas Morgal
Aqui no meu país, tem um canal chamado CineJan . Uma moça bem morena .
Ela acredita que os locais onde onde Frodo usou o anel e Sauron pode vê-lo, são locais mágicos de alguma forma. Também pode sentir quando alguém reenvidica o Anel .
Essas são as únicas formas de Sauron sentir o Anel
"There's a subscribe button, . . . somewhere." lol good one.
0:22 "There is a subscribe button... somewhere" LMFAOOOOO
Such a great video and thanks so much for all the proper art credits at the end !!
I think it has a lot more to do with the claiming part. Sure, proximity to Barad Dur and Mount Doom help (and are distinct from Cirith Ungol and other parts of Mordor), but Frodo claimed the ring and attempted to exert his will over it, which he’d never done before, and I think that’s what made the connection.
Correct.
This is a very good reminder of the core story from the books and very accurate. The one thing i never understood, since Sauron cannot sense the Ring except for the couple of cases discussed in the video (Amon Hen and In Orodruin) how is it that Gollum is able to sense it and follow it, almost literally across the continent?
As another comment said Sauron was master of the ring, Gollum was mastered by the ring.
While the ring seeks to return to its master, gollum does so too
Gollum also knew the Hobbits had it, and was a very accomplished tracker & skulker himself - think of how long it took Aragorn to track him down!
It is weird and worth asking how Gollum found and tracked Frodo.
my impression is that other ring bearers (including ex ring bearers) can sense if a ring of power is nearby, especially if the ring they sense is being worn.
It raises a question though, if a ring bearer senses a ring is nearby, can they tell which ring it is? Bear in mind Gandalf had to apply fire to identify Bilbo's ring.
Second we know Sauron was using a Palantir at Barad-dûr, but these Palantir's must have had their weak points that hindered even Sauron himself so he couldn't rely on the Palantir exclusively.
I never considered Gollum to have a supernatural ability to follow the ring or Frodo. I got the impression that he was transformed into a sort of nocturnal creature with heightened senses, partly because of his new life scrounding for fish in the dark. I need to review the books...
Isildur was drowned with the Ring at the Gladden Fields, not Lórien, as is indicated on that map. Having said that, Dol Guldur, which Sauron chose as his new dwelling, was still not that far away from the Gladden Fields - but we don't know whether that was because of the Ring drawing him there or because he knew Isildur met his fate around there. I'm guessing it was the latter reason. Also, it wasn't just because Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath Naur that Sauron became aware of him, it was also because Frodo claimed it for himself. That's what drew Sauron's attention. The Land of Mordor itself doesn't have any special magical power in combination with the Ring, apart from the fact that the Ring grows in power the closer it gets to its place of forging and is also thus more able to call to its master. So it was able to overpower Frodo at the end and compel him into claiming it, thus alerting Sauron to where it was.
5:40 In the books, Gandalf later unequivocally explains that it was he that shielded Frodo on Amon Hen, deflecting Sauron's gaze.
Where?
@@jameszimmerman1069 In The Two Towers, in the chapter The White Rider, after revealing himself to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, Gandalf says: "The Ring now has passed beyond my help ... Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower, and the Shadow passed." This is also referenced in The Return of the King in the chapter The Black Gate Opens, where "...Frodo felt [Gandalf's presence], not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen, though he believed that Gandalf was gone, gone for ever."
@@jaakkomantyjarvi7515 Thanks
I like how you've explained the general dynamic between the ring and it's master. Just like the ring didn't draw everyone to it with a flare, It also couldn't just magically fly back to Sauron's hand, it could only slip from Isildur and Gollums fingers to try to get back.
Another part of why Sauron knew where Frodo was at the end, was that Frodo claimed the ring as he put it upon his finger in Mt Doom. By doing so he literally challenged the Dark Lord, making all of his works done with the ring tremble, shaking the very tower in which he sat!
Sauron's spirit is tied to the Ring. Frodo isn't just challenging him for the Ring, Frodo is attempting to destroy Sauron's very existence.
Now this was an excellent explanation
An incorrect one nonetheless. The reason Sauron becomes aware of Frodo is because he claims the ring with the intent to master it. This alerts Sauron in the same way Sauron doing it before alerted the Elves via their rings of power. Remember that Sauron has at least 13 rings of power in his possession including the 9 given to the would be Nazgûl.
@@ItsSVO Although I do like that theory, I'm not convinced that's the real reason.. I don't think Frodo has any intend to master the ring, more than Gollum did.. I think he just wanted it for himself, and to disappear with it to somewhere safe.. More or less the same as Gollum.. I don't even think the other ringbearers knew he took it for himself.. Neither did they when Smeagol took it, before becoming gollum..
@@bjarkefromsejer394 This isn’t a theory, it literally happens in the books. Frodo openly claims the ring for his own which is a direct challenge to Sauron hence why he’s aware of its location.
@@ItsSVO Well, I stand corrected, good sir.. 😁
Thank you for the clear up..😉
Bilbo is the bestest of burglers is why.
The Amon Hen incident is quite funny when you think about it:
"Hm hm hm... Oh, how amusing, there's a hobbit sitting on that throne... Wait a second! IS THAT MY RING!?"
I always thought it was because frodo and bilbo had pure hearts and was not close enough to evil yet, and the more time spent wearing the ring the more chances of it consuming your soul and sauron seeing you.
That's why some can be seen when wearing it and some can't,
Basically if you're easily turned or easily corrupted and miss led then the eye will pick you up a lot quicker.
Well why sauron didn't see golum then i asked myself, well we don't actually see golum wearing the ring much, we see him carrying it in his pocketsis but not wearing it on a finger,
I always thought as a child it was because his big bulky fingsr tips wont allow him to wear it and thats why sauron didn't see him, or the fact he mainly dwelled underground in caves and saurons eye only sees horizons.
It's funny how your own imagination will always fill in the gaps.
I think for Amon Hen it's like how with Palantir, you are putting forward your will when you look at Sauron in his tower, Sauron of course has the stronger will so he was made aware of it and was putting his own will out to meet it. Same with Galadriel, Sauron is putting forward his will to find her but she is aware of it and can push his will back.
It has nothing to do with Galadriel's own ability but the ring of the power which she possessed! The elven ring which given to her specialized on preserving so she could preserve and defend her mind from Sauron's. Otherwise Sauron would break Galadriel's mind and read her mind easily as he did to Saruman. Yes, Tolkien also stated that Sauron oftenly taunted Saruman the white and read his thought forcefully even when Saruman refused and tried to withheld information from the dark lord. So even the White Wizard was hopeless against hiding his own thought from Sauron, how Galadriel could by herself? lol
@@_semih_Saruman was fallen and became enamored with the rings of power. He became easy for Sauron to manipulate, to some degree, as he was never fully loyal to Sauron, only finding the secrets of the rings of power, or finding the one ring itself.
Galadriel, on the other hand, always possessed a higher level of defense against Sauron. Example being in the second age when she distrusted Anatar. There are plenty of first age examples of where doing things to elves were not 'easy' for Sauron.
@@PseudoNym100 No, he was not enamored when this happened. Saruman was still the White Wizard and not corrupted yet! Saruman was in a search for the Palantiri and he accidentally communicated with Sauron and by the time Sauron oftenly read Saruman's mind and thought forcefully and against his will and apparently he learned Saruman's secret plans by this way.
"[It] is said that Sauron had at this time [3018], by means of the Palantiri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information."
[Unfinished Tales, part III, The Third Age IV, The Hunt for the Ring Notes, Note 14]
Galadriel never possessed a "higher level of defense" against Sauron. This is a pure fan fiction! Galadriel's distrust was not unique or a *superiority* in her case lol! It was about the ring of power she possessed. Despite the fan fiction, no elf has a defence of superiority to even the weakest of the Maiar and other Ainur! In the first age even Sauron's mere presence was enough to scare and flee Orodreth and his fellow High Noldor Elven warriors who used to guard Tol-Sirion. And these high elven warriors seen the light of the two trees but they couldn't bear Sauron's dark presence and fled in fear towards the South
I think you're missing an important point. Sauron's strength grew as he recovered from his defeat at the beginning of the Third Age, and seemed to grow especially quickly in the months leading up to the War of the Ring. Tolkien references this several times. When Bilbo found the Ring, Sauron was not yet as strong as he became at the time of the War of the Ring. The same thing with the Nazgul. Tolkien clearly stated in the Letters that the Witch King who entered the gates of Minas Tirith was much stronger than the Nazgul who sought the hobbits in the Shire only a short time before. Yes, the places where the Ring was worn were important, but time was also a factor.
Because when The Hobbit was written The Lord of the Rings didn't exist, so most of those ideas weren't finalized.
Great video, thank you. Just found this Channel today via o’ great algorithm, and I’m excited to watch more on my 3 favorite fantasy worlds.
Just found your channel. Absolutely love it. Keep up the great work
I always assumed that in the films only sauron perceived frodo on amon hen because of the amplification of the sight that the magical seat of seeing gave him
LIES
The books frequently make reference to the fact that when Sauron lost the ring, he lost a great deal of his power and it took him a long time to get it back. He has to build it back up slowly. This is one reason why the Nazgûl are not unleashed (again) on Middle Earth until early in The Fellowship- Sauron lacks the power to direct them. I always thought he couldn’t “see” Bilbo wearing the ring in The Hobbit, at least in part because his own power was weak. Once his power level reaches a sort of critical mass, it seems to accelerate much more rapidly, enabling him to sense when someone puts on the ring. I think the physical proximity of the ring plays into it too.
In addition to that, he was trying to build up his power in secret, which means that his power can't grow as quickly as it otherwise could. Just as Gandalf starting a fire in the Misty Mountains with magic proclaimed, "GANDALF IS HERE!" to all with eyes to see it, Sauron openly growing his powers would have made a similar proclamation at a time when there were those who could challenge him openly.
After the White Council learned the truth and drove him from Mirkwood, he fled to Mordor, fortified himself in that land (the preparations had begun long before he arrived) and openly declared himself. This let him grow in power much more rapidly since there was no longer any need to hide himself.
@@areoborg I like the idea that magic is something that leaves great waves around for people who know what to look for can see. Has a real fabric-of-the-realm feel to it.
1:28 those covers are fantastic. Where can I get them?
Bilbo is so super baked, Sauron can't even see the ring with the amount of ganja he's puffing.
Sauron could have saved himself a lot of headaches if he just added a homing-signal spell when he forged the One Ring.🙄
Great content... it's interesting to see differences between the books and movie highlighted. I don't mind some creative liberties being taken by Peter Jackson, as Cinema is a very different medium from Books.
Tolkien rewrote and revised his work so many times, to improve it and reach the high level of detail in his books... I wonder how many times he reread his own work?
Sam at Cirith Ungol was in Mordor's backyard, and Sauron didn't sense when he put it on.
Maybe Sauron sensed it at Mount Doom because that's where it was forged.
Neither. It’s because Frodo openly claimed the ring for himself with the intent to become its master.
@@ItsSVO Yeah, I think Frodo putting on the ring in Mordor was more of a risk to his health than being spotted. Although, they kind of go hand in hand in the books. The more he deteriorated mentally, probably the easier it would be to get caught. Like that time he was walking straight at the Witch King at that big tower or whatever. That might have been a film thing though, played up for drama. It's been a while since I read the books.
Sam didn't have that problem when he put it on, it being the first time and him having such a high resistance to it. (And even he had a little voice inside of him tempting him.)
i always just thought it was because the time between bilbo giving up the ring and frodo putting it on was like a decade and in that time Sauron had recovered more of his strength enough for his sight to reach the shire
Ayyyy it's Robert, I thought I recognized your voice! I listened to your reading of 20k leagues under the sea.
8:22 MAKE SOME NOISE
The book scene where Frodo is just looking around completely unknown until he looks at Mordor and Sauron looks right back is so damn scary. I think the film handled it well but that description is so great
4:21 Did someone slip in some art from Star Wars? Because that's clearly a wookie chair on Kashyyyk right there.
Thank you for this video. Didn't read the book, but knowing the truth, I like the book's take. It was really jarring how much Sauron would seem to know and then be completely oblivious to. The true version would instead add a sense of desperation to Sauron. He's very much fighting for his life as well.
Always found it a bit strange that the Fellowship need to use stealth to get to Mordor and bank on Sauron believing the Ring is elsewhere when Sauron and his forces have seen Frodo use the ring a couple of times now.
A few did see him but when they are chasing or watching from a distance they can’t tell Frodo apart from the others. So seeing Gandalf transport a hobbit to the HQ of humans makes it look awfully like the humans are getting the ring to safety and a place they can hold out.
Two things are established In the movies.
1. Gandalf says "it has sense it's master's call" meaning that previously the ring was sort of "inactive" or disconnected from Sauron.
2. Saurons power was greatly diminished after being defeated by Isildur, and it took him since that battle all the way to the fellowship to gather his strength, so during the hobbit and previously he was not present enough to sense the ring.
And also in the movies it is told that "the ring has a will of its own" "something happened that it did not expect" referring to being picked up by Bilbo.
So the ring, having no master to exact will over it and being outsmarted does not call out as it does later when it has sensed that its master has grown in power and can wield it. It wants to be taken to mordor
The Amon Hen part has me wonder if it's like in reality, you can kind of sense someone is watching or looking at you in the same room. You can almost always catch someone at some point looking at you and you make eye contact. It could be Sauron catching Frodo like that. Except "magical."
Why is it that when Sauron was shown wearing the one ring, he was not invisible?
Kia Ora - hello and good health - from Aotearoa/New Zealand and Happy 2024 :) Soo happy i found this link. i thought i was a well-read Tolkien geek yet have learned sooo much while enjoying the quality tale telling and wonderful art. :). Awesome, very best wishes and please keep up the wonderful effort.
The passage describing Sauron as he realizes that Frodo has put on the ring in mount doom is hands down one of the best pieces of text I've ever come across.
the ring wasnt yet woke by fire with bilbo. we wait for gandalf to fire the ring in front of frodo, and THEN, the ring is visible by Sauron
It’s also all hobbits or a hobbit like person putting the ring on. They seem to be insignificant in the hierarchy of this universe.
Biblo was a Morty.
In the movies, I always thought Sauron could see Frodo and not previous wearers because his power had been growing recently and his return to worldly form was nearly complete.
As someone who has never been able to read the books due to a hard case of ADHD, I am so happy to have learned of this as it makes me appreciate the movies even more. Knowing that Sauron could not ever even have known Frodo and Sam were in his realm makes so much more sense, even more so later when Frodo puts it on before struggling with Gollum.
I would argue that in the case of the movies, they could not incorporate the chair scene without it feeling out of place and so they probably opted for a more direct reveal in the Inn. It does make a little less sense in context now tho but knowing what was behind the idea, it makes sense again. The depth this world, these books and even movies have is fascinating to this day.
Why couldn't Sauron sense Bilbo? Because Tolkein didn't think 80% of the planet would over analyze his fairytail lol.
Tolkien over analyzed his own works so why would he think others wouldn’t?….
Yeah. When you over analyse the stories that you make you honestly don’t expect other people to over analyze them too. Hard feeling to put into words…
How about not sensing Gollum.Proximity?
This might explain George RR Martin's crippling writers block.
it's simple when bilbo still had the ring sauron was not strong enough to detect the ring bearer that's why. frodo got the ring when he was 22 and he left on his quest when he was 44 20 eyars pased from when biblo had it.