i was the person that got tim legendre (the creator of the 450 bushmaster) to the 2000 SOPMOD conference for developments of the m-4 carbine. (i was a retired msg, / airborne ranger) our argument was that it was not the firearm that was the problem, but the cartridge. we demonstrated the 450 bushmaster (called the 45 professional at the time) by busting cinder blocks. i deliberately waited until the last demo. the FN representative standing next to me said "you just blew everyone out of the water." that led directly to the development of the 6.8 spc, the 458 socom, the 50 beowulf, etc. without that demo in 2000, none of the other "big bore" AR's (including the 350 legend) would even exist. so, the 450 bushmaster was NOT the cart ahead of the horse, the 450 was the horse pulling the cart for the rest. essentially a semi-auto 45-70 (with original black powder loads) the 45 professional was picked up by bushmaster firearms, slightly modified, and became the 450 bushmaster. prior to 450 bushmaster, the only attempt was an ar-15 with 7.62x39, which did not feed well. i own the two prototype rifles we used. (one 16", one standard length)
Daughter got to use her 350L last weekend to take an 11 point buck ( Her first ). Used the Winchester 150gr XP at 45-55 yards. Complete punch through ( heart/double lung ). Buck made it 60-80 yards with not much heart left. She and I couldn't have been happier with her success and the performance of the 350 Legend.
As soon as the 350L came to market, I sold my slug gun and haven't regretted that choice once. The 350 is very accurate, low recoil, and with the Deer Season XP bullet, has worked excellent on deer. I've killed 7-8 deer with it and either dropped, watched fall, or excellent blood trail. 100% deer recovery so far. I use the Vortex straight wall scope but haven't tested the BDC at all ranges yet.
So I bought a 350 Legend a couple years ago, I was only able to find at purchase was Winchester Power Point 180 grain ammo. I live in Southeast Alabama hunt in a heavy wooded area where my longest shot is 100 to 110 yards. The 350 Light compact size make it a great option. When I shot my 1st deer with it a small about 110lb doe she ran about 60 yards and went down very little blood trail and no exit wound recovered the bullet in the back hip after it skipped down the opposite side ribs. About a month later I found some Winchester Deer Season XP Extreme Point 150 grain ammo. Got another doe in late season at about 85 yards with the Deer Season XP no issue at all this time clean in and out she never took another step. Love my 350 Legend pulled it trigger twice in hunting situation and brought home meat both times.
SW Michigan deer Hunter here in the straight wall zone. Recoil sensitive so I went w a CVA scout V2 in .350. A real pleasure to shoot. Shot a small doe last season. Heart shot. Very accurate through and through w a Winchester 180 PP. great deer cartridge and rifle
@@nuckyduk15that's a shame too, I wish they'd make a full size pistol in 30sc.. capacity would on par with the 5.7x28 guns with an arguably better self defense round
@@nuckyduk1530SC should be a carbine cartridge (PCC), would be neat and would get decent velocity boost. I suppose the counter argument is we already have 5.7x28 which has some better characteristics in a longer barrel.
Bought a 350L for my 17 year old daughter. this was her first shooting exp. She handled it well, we both took boar with it using the Winchester Ext Pt. in 150 gr. The 350L did very well om boar at 70 and 30 yards
I have a 350L in a CVA Cascade that I got from Walmart a cpuple years ago. It has been a delight to shoot and has been extraordinarily lethal on multiple whitetail in Texas.
I have taken many whitetails over the years with 3 different 450's and love the results. They have been taken as close as 10 yards and as far as 230 yards. I put together an Ar in 350 but never hunted with it, but I do have relatives that have taken deer with 350's, so I say it's whatever you like they both work great.
Guys, when you get unexpected or screwy results with a gel shot, please repeat the test. It would be useful to see what a second shot would do. FWIW, the 450 Bushmaster was designed around Hornady's .45 cal flex-tip bullet. That bullet would probably have expanded to a much greater diameter and penetrated less. A note about reduced-velocity testing: Some bullets, especially copper monolithics, are sensitive to rotation speed. The faster the twist, the faster and wider the petals are deployed. Since he spin rate stays almost constant as the bullet travels through the air, so to match typical spin rate with a reduced velocity load, you will need a faster twist barrel.
I bought a 350 legend 3 years ago for my son. We have had tremendous success on northern WI deer with that cartridge. Hornady American Whitetail also our ammo of choice. Very effective and efficient. Great blood trails and very short blood trails. I have been extremely pleased and surprised by the lethality. It hits hard no doubt about it. Excellent cartridge.
I like the idea of the 350 Legend better than the 450 Bushmaster but held off since it' isn't a true 358 cal. The new 360 Buckhammer is much more interesting to me and would love to see you do a comparison with the 350 Legend one day. Love the idea of the 360 in a single shot or a lever gun.
@@gerry6.8with a outdated rimed case smh why can’t they just make a 360 legend. A true .358 with a rebated rim they keep making everything but what I just explained.
@@robertpickardjr9239 I hunt in akransas now and in regular gun season we can use rifles, but they just allowed straight walls during muzzleloading season, so i picked one up. where i used to hunt, michigan, there are a lot of areas where it's shotgun, muzzleloader, or straight wall only too. That's why these straight walls are becoming popular.
450 deer hunter here. Never have had success with Hornady ammo in 450 BM as shown in video it fragments. I like federals or Winchester's Extreme point much better. Hope you reshoot the 450 BM with that load!
My experience is with the 454 casull in a 20” carbine. Basically the same as 450 BM . I keep it simple & use cast lead , the 454 is a killer no doubt about it. More then that , it really pulls pigs up while they’re in full flight . I never recovered hard cast 300 gr . Best thing is I found that even 250 gr hard cast @ 1100 fps work brilliantly also , they are just super mild killers . That gives the the 45 cal carbines a very large operating window. I’ll be trying air cooled wheel weight alloy next 270gr rnfp & 255gr hp & launched at something around the 1500 . I’ll keep experimenting till I get a nice mild load , with soft - wide expanding bullet, that doesn’t shed weight & still drives really deep .
You mentioned the hole in the gel…the 350 legend makes round paper punches like a wadcutter in paper targets at the range…it’s neat. I’ve never shot the 450 bushmaster so I can’t speak to that.
450 BM was my favorite because one of my favorite bang stick companies was Windham Weaponry, which had the 450 Thumper in 450 BM. But these tests have shown, to me, the superior performance of the 350 Legend. And yes, the Riuger American would be the best choice for an economical hunting rifle for your aunt's 20 acre chunk near the lake.
Ive seen the hunting public use the 450 and it absolutely crushes deer. Now 150 yds and in they are both amazing and they’re an even better up close and personal hog round.
I have hunted the last few seasons with my Ruger Ranch 450 BM with Hornady Black 250gr FTX and I have harvested several deer with it. I always get complete passthrough and the Ruger Ranch is so light that I barely feel the gun carrying it around the woods. I'm a bigger guy so the recoil never bothered me, but I have had shoulder issues this year so I just ordered a Savage 110 Trail Hunter in 350 Legend. I am excited to see how the gun shoots, but also my oldest is 8 this year so maybe she can harvest a deer with it too. I am just happy to live in a time with so many choices and I am grateful to get to go out into the woods. God is good!
I've never shot the 350 and you can't argue with the numbers, but the 450Bushy absolutely smacks dear. It does'nt just knock em down, it knocks em over. I use the barnes bullets, full pass throughs the size of golf balls every time.
That's usually people that try to shoot through the scapula with the deer season xp poly tip. I shot a buck last year, double lung through the ribs, and he dropped dead in his tracks. 350 legend is amazing. There's meat in my freezer right now from deer that would beg to differ, that 350 doesn't penetrate well
Primary driving force behind the .450 BM was to accommodate those who are forced to hunt shotgun zones in certain states where shotgun and straight wall pistol cartridges are the only choices you have legally.
My personal choice of sling carrying a rifle is far and away facilitated by the AR platform; low ready, slung across the front. Maybe it’s from years of service but I also hunted with the standard long gun sling setup for far longer. Apple cider slush; had one from local pumpkin patch here in coastal GA. Now that’s a tasty treat!!
I’d get 450 if I had to pick one. It’s the same velocity with a heavier, wider bullet. Gel tests are fun but I don’t put much stock in them. Hunters in the field seem to more favorably review the 450 (not that the 350 is ineffective).
Well, in my area, South Central Texas, the 350 Legend is far and away more popular. More rounds in the mag and follow up shots are a breeze. The Winchester 180gr just won't stop. No matter what angle.
I sold my 450 for a 350 last year. I hunt whitetail, and 350 is a joy to shoot, especially compared to 450. I enjoy taking it to the range. It's more than enough to kill a whitetail at its intended ranges. I was able to get 3 last year and none went more than 50 yards. Also it's a much lighter gun for when im doing drives.
Hornady had a podcast on the 450 Bushmaster that covers its development. It is a Hornady-designed cartridge designed around the AR15, the 284 Win case, and their existing 45 cal flex-tipped bullet (originally saboted for muzzleloaders). It and a couple other cartridges (50 Beowulf, 458 SOCOM) were designed to shoot large diameter bullets from the AR15. Jeff Cooper was a big advocate of this style of cartridge, which he called a "thumper". Pretty much the maximum short-range power that could be achieved from the platform. The Hornady guys stated that for the last 8 or 9 years, the 450 Bushmaster has been one of the top 5 rifle cartridges in terms of ammo they sold, so it is definitely popular in some places in the country.
it was not originally designed by hornady. it was designed by tim legendre. bushmaster bought it, and had hornady modify it slightly for different projectiles. it was originally designed to shoot 230 grain hardball bullets used in the 45acp. i know, i helped develop it, and own the two prototypes built.
@grayman7208 I would have been more accurate to say that Hornady finalized the design. In the podcast, they mentioned that they changed some things from the original prototype, which is probably what you have. Hornady shortened the case slightly, modified the chamber and did the pressure testing. The main reason that they shortened the case was to use their own existing flextip bullet that needed a longer head height than the original bullets.
@@grayman7208 Yes, and I am indeed impressed by that. It is a good round. I just wanted to correct my original statement for the record. Was there an original plan for hunting bullets? I suspect that 45 ACP hollow points would have some problems as speeds approached 2,000 fps. Thanks
@@jfess1911 there is an array of .45 caliber bullets that can be used. and it was planned that way from the beginning. it was meant to be a "thumper" relatively close and hard hitting. just like it is used now.
My experience with 450 bushmaster 16 inch Ruger. Hormady 250 ftx 40 yards buck facing me in a pine cutover thicket. Shot in the neck, went down didn't move. Couldn't find where the bullet went there were lots of pieces when it hit the neck bone. Processing it found the jacket in the shoulder. Shooting across the same cutover, same bullet, 140 yards 2 year old doe. Heard the bullet impact saw the deer jump straight up high in the air. Had a hard time finding the spot of the hit. Once I found blood it was a blood bath. Bullet went in and out front of the chest and didn't hit any organs. She was quartered more than I thought Deer went approximately 75 yards piled up.
I've been debating a 350 Legend upper for my AR, I already have a spare upper and handguard, I would only need the barrel and another red dot. I've definetly never really had an interest in 450 Bushmaster because it always seemed unnessessary out here on the East Coast.
The problem with the hornady is it is a bullet for lower velocity, driven fast it will come apart , when reloading use the magnum labeled bullets , they stay together.
I've taken 6 whitetail, 3 big mulies, 4 black bears with 180gr Winchester super X 350 Legend all under 200yds. It absolutely pounds animals. 2 hole gushers every time. What shocks me is the penetration on bears. It blows right through fat like nothing. I've never recovered a bullet as they exit like a 35 Remington. Just a fabulous low recoil round. My Ruger ranch is my favorite rifle. The guys at camp laughed when I first brought in 4 years ago. They all use this round now. Big thing? Incredible accuracy. I mean.5moa
The 450 bushmaster is one of the top selling hornady cartridges and has been for years. It’s incredibly popular in straight wall hunting areas/states. I might argue that your sample size in central MN where straight wall cartridges weren’t allowed was far too small and didn’t give a good representation of how popular the cartridge has been throughout the US. Maybe should have included the 400 legend in the podcast as well as it aims to bridge the gap between these two.
Shot a 3 and a 1/2 year old Buck with winchestejust 180 grain 350 legend at 220 yd. He ran about 70 yd and fell over. It went through his opposite shoulder. Very impressed
Shooting suppressed tames already acceptable recoil in 450 or 350 in ar15. I love the fact that 20 round mags for 350 work great. Also 6.5 grendel is impressive in ar15
Shot a doe with my 450 Ruger American 20" barrel double lunge and it went to take its first step and dropped shot at 50 yards. I will say sighting it in I shot 10 times in my arm was shaking a little.
45 raptor sounds interesting too, same diameter as the 450 bushmaster and slightly longer case. I heard its a comparable size difference of 38spec and 357mag. Uses 460 s&w dies and starline makes brass for it, and its for the ar10. But its basically a wildcat round, and you have to build the gun yourself.
Special thanks to Randy’s Hunting Center Bad Ax, for have Ruger chamber the American for whitetail here in Mi. Nothing fancy just knocks them down👊🏻. 360 Buckhammer when Marlin gets them out.
450 for me! Shot game with both and there is a very noticeable difference on game performance. I shoot Hornaday bkavk 250's in a ruger ranch. Its absolutely my favorite close range rifle. No tracking. I guess the 350 would be good for kids that cant handle the recoil equivalent to a 30-06. Great video!
The reason the 450 came out was shotgun only states. It was a game changer over 12ga or 20ga slugs. It met the criteria to be used in those states. Now you could use a actual rifle chambered in something other then a pistol cartridge. So the straight wall cartridge boom began.
Wonder why we don't hear of ar-15 350 legend for home defense? Slower slug, less blast and sound, lower chance of over penitration and you get a 35 caliber frontal area. Can it up, 14.5" barrel, man that would be a sweet rig.
Agree, that’s a 21st century version of the .357 Mag lever carbine. Re: lower penetration - do you mean lower than .450 Bushmaster? That would make sense. Not lower than 5.56 I’d think.
I've actually thought about doing something very similar, but I ended up getting a honey badger and putting a can on it for my home defense gun. But I think I've talked my dad into getting a AR in 350 legend. He won't do any of the paperwork for a SBR or suppressor, but just getting him to think about anything other than lever guns, pump shotguns or revolvers is a massive step forward.
I think the it'd be a good stopper, but for defensive use you want 100% feed reliability, and I'm under the impression the 350 isn't as foolproof as the 5.56 in that regard.
As an iowa deer hunter who does deer drives i see multiple deer killed by a variety of calibers every year. The 450 dominates the 350 in the real world on deer.
As someone who hunts michigan and ohio deer (both states with straight wall cart restrictions) I've seen hundreds of deer taken with both carts. I would say, I have seen more bad shots and lost deer with older guys staying true to the 450BM than guys switching to 350Legend. I've seen big bucks eat the Hornaday Whitetail 450, having its shoulder shattered and still running off with no blood trail. It doesn't make sense due to grain, energy and caliber, but in one instance, I've seen a 350 bust through a shoulder, blow through vitals and Crack a rib before exiting dropping a Stout 187 buck where it stood. Just food for thought.
Watch the 450 hornady whitetail test from Mason leather channel and it will make perfect sense. Bare gel at 100yds and the projectile broke apart and didn't even make 12"... Seems it's a poorly designed projectile threat can break apart too easily and fail to penetrate to vitals.
I wonder if it's just the bullet you used, I used a .450 Bushmaster Hornady Black, and the buck just dropped, may have been the most uneventful kill in Illinois I have ever had over my career. I used a Savage Scout.
6mm arc vs. 6.5 grendel vs. 224 valkyrie vs. 22 nosler vs. 204 ruger!!! The internet needs a Vortex explanation only you guys can provide! It seems like theres just as much if not more conjecture on these cartridges compared to actual facts. I think this area of expertise would be perfect for your channel. I hope one day you'll help provide these answers haha. 😜🤷♂️
I have hunted in MI for many years with a 450 and it has dropped everything I poked it with. I like the fact that if one day I do get the opportunity to hunt bear in the UP I can use the same rifle. With that said, as I get older I wouldn't mind something that hits a little bit more gentle to the shoulder or something that would be easier for the kids.
Just got my fist straight wall cartridge deer gun today. 350 legend. CVA Cascade. One big factor for me is the volume. My friend took a deer with the 450BM, 16", muzzle break, no ear protection as he didn't have time to get it in... His ears were ringing for hours. Hell, that gun hurts my ears with hearing protection in. No thanks.
Okay, I'm not saying intermediate cartridges can compare to short action cartridges. I do like the intermediate cartridges because I LIKE to go to the range and practice. I enjoy shooting for group size. I have taken deer with my reloads in .223. I have and can shoot the 308, it's just not an enjoyable experience. So, how do these smaller cartridges stack up against each other?
.350 Legend is great if you only plan to buy ammo. Bit minimal on bullets that are .356 that will take it's velocities in that caliber without being too big. There's a number of .452 tough bullets so I find the bushmaster easier to load for from that standpoint. I prefer the 240 gr. XTP Magnums in the bushmaster over the partition. From Hodgdon's website: 450 Bushmaster: Hodgdon Lil'Gun 0.452" 2.225" 35.0 2,158 32,500 PSI 38.5 2,289 35,900 PSI But with Hammer Bullets Shock hammer in 221 gr. copper, it will do 2459 fps and take this even further into the realm of interesting. .350 legend is a good cartridge for small stature or recoil sensitive, but no where near what the .450 bushmaster can do. I keep mine 18" from my desk and bed. It's got a 3x prism on it as I don't intend to use it past 100 yards, but for clearing an area, as an ex infantryman, I'd take it over the other. For plinking, probably the legend though. You can plink using smaller 185 gr. .451 bullets for .45 acp and a small load of Unique etc.
350l is not a 35 caliber bullet. It is loaded with .355/9mm bullets. It get around the .357 bullet requirement because on the saami print, the bullet diameter is listed as .357 -.003
Your review failed to include "Just Plain Fun" as a factor. I built my 450 BM upon my escape from a Peoples Republic in the Northeast. It is just ridiculous fun to shoot. You picked the boring Honda Accord over the awesome Muscle Car. I saw your gel test results, but I can say with 100% certainty my 450 will put a giant amount of hurt on an Axis deer. Half inch entry wound and giant exit wound on Axis deer and whitetail. Everything in between including ribs destroyed. The Hornady Ammo with the FTX bullet is the way to go BTW.
Can we get Ryan to just romance the 300 WinMag instead of comparing it with the 308 or sharing the show with some of the cartridge. I’ve been waiting and it’s long overdue. 10 minute talk turned into 30.
It appears that the reloaders would prefer a .350 Legend, since you can use a multitude of 9mm bullets in that case... Then create your own special rounds!
I’d like to see a Cartridge Talks shootout including the .30-30 Winchester, and have been wondering what the best round would be to compare it to. This test has about convinced me you should do… .30-30 vs .350 Legend. I mean, we’ve got a 170 gr bullet at around 2200 fps from a handy light rifle, that seems to turn in ballistic performance beyond what you’d expect, and would absolutely slam down a whitetail … that’s your .350 results here, but it’s also what so many .30-30 tests I’ve seen online deliver. Both seem like unassuming, well-mannered over-performers.
I just commented somthing very similar. Ron Spomer did a segment on the subject and had a great ballistics comparison of 350 legend vs 30-30 win. 350 in a light AR15 is similar in weight, power, over all length, effective range, recoil to a Marlin 30-30
i was the person that got tim legendre (the creator of the 450 bushmaster) to the 2000 SOPMOD conference for developments of the m-4 carbine.
(i was a retired msg, / airborne ranger)
our argument was that it was not the firearm that was the problem, but the cartridge.
we demonstrated the 450 bushmaster (called the 45 professional at the time) by busting cinder blocks.
i deliberately waited until the last demo.
the FN representative standing next to me said "you just blew everyone out of the water."
that led directly to the development of the 6.8 spc, the 458 socom, the 50 beowulf, etc.
without that demo in 2000, none of the other "big bore" AR's (including the 350 legend) would even exist.
so, the 450 bushmaster was NOT the cart ahead of the horse, the 450 was the horse pulling the cart for the rest.
essentially a semi-auto 45-70 (with original black powder loads)
the 45 professional was picked up by bushmaster firearms, slightly modified, and became the 450 bushmaster.
prior to 450 bushmaster, the only attempt was an ar-15 with 7.62x39, which did not feed well.
i own the two prototype rifles we used. (one 16", one standard length)
Thank you for your part in this world
@@AzSedonaAdventurer
you are welcome.
@@grayman7208 and thank you for your service.
@@AzSedonaAdventurer
lol you are welcome.
Hey Gray, do you have any info on the load you tested that day? Super interesting story - would make for a great article or interview.
Daughter got to use her 350L last weekend to take an 11 point buck ( Her first ).
Used the Winchester 150gr XP at 45-55 yards. Complete punch through ( heart/double lung ). Buck made it 60-80 yards with not much heart left. She and I couldn't have been happier with her success and the performance of the 350 Legend.
As soon as the 350L came to market, I sold my slug gun and haven't regretted that choice once. The 350 is very accurate, low recoil, and with the Deer Season XP bullet, has worked excellent on deer. I've killed 7-8 deer with it and either dropped, watched fall, or excellent blood trail. 100% deer recovery so far. I use the Vortex straight wall scope but haven't tested the BDC at all ranges yet.
Our relatives in Ohio experienced the same excellent results with the 350 Legend. It's a winner and gaining in popularity.
So I bought a 350 Legend a couple years ago, I was only able to find at purchase was Winchester Power Point 180 grain ammo. I live in Southeast Alabama hunt in a heavy wooded area where my longest shot is 100 to 110 yards. The 350 Light compact size make it a great option. When I shot my 1st deer with it a small about 110lb doe she ran about 60 yards and went down very little blood trail and no exit wound recovered the bullet in the back hip after it skipped down the opposite side ribs. About a month later I found some Winchester Deer Season XP Extreme Point 150 grain ammo. Got another doe in late season at about 85 yards with the Deer Season XP no issue at all this time clean in and out she never took another step. Love my 350 Legend pulled it trigger twice in hunting situation and brought home meat both times.
SW Michigan deer Hunter here in the straight wall zone. Recoil sensitive so I went w a CVA scout V2 in .350. A real pleasure to shoot. Shot a small doe last season. Heart shot. Very accurate through and through w a Winchester 180 PP. great deer cartridge and rifle
Forgive me for speaking of a pistol cartridge but the biggest lead balloon in recent history is the 45 GAP.
Facts! 30 Super Carry will join that list eventually
@@nuckyduk15that's a shame too, I wish they'd make a full size pistol in 30sc.. capacity would on par with the 5.7x28 guns with an arguably better self defense round
@@nuckyduk15 man I almost said it in my original comment, but I secretly want one...
I'd love a g19 & g48 sized 30SC. Alas I agree that it'll be a flop
@@nuckyduk1530SC should be a carbine cartridge (PCC), would be neat and would get decent velocity boost. I suppose the counter argument is we already have 5.7x28 which has some better characteristics in a longer barrel.
Bought a 350L for my 17 year old daughter.
this was her first shooting exp. She handled it well, we both took boar with it using the Winchester
Ext Pt. in 150 gr. The 350L did very well om boar at 70 and 30 yards
Would love to see 350 legend vs 400 legend
Add the 400 legend to that.
I have a 350L in a CVA Cascade that I got from Walmart a cpuple years ago. It has been a delight to shoot and has been extraordinarily lethal on multiple whitetail in Texas.
I have taken many whitetails over the years with 3 different 450's and love the results. They have been taken as close as 10 yards and as far as 230 yards. I put together an Ar in 350 but never hunted with it, but I do have relatives that have taken deer with 350's, so I say it's whatever you like they both work great.
I built both 450 & 350, love the 350, and pumpkin shake. Best grouse hunt ever was with 28 ga. Beretta O/U in Michigan. Thanks for great video.
PLEASE document the grouse hunt!! Or do a grouse recap. I love grouse hunts.
Dont get your feathers ruffled...🦃👍 Hope your future hunts go well.
Still want to see 30-30 with the Barnes TSX!
Lever action?
Yes@@blauer2551
Guys, when you get unexpected or screwy results with a gel shot, please repeat the test. It would be useful to see what a second shot would do. FWIW, the 450 Bushmaster was designed around Hornady's .45 cal flex-tip bullet. That bullet would probably have expanded to a much greater diameter and penetrated less.
A note about reduced-velocity testing: Some bullets, especially copper monolithics, are sensitive to rotation speed. The faster the twist, the faster and wider the petals are deployed. Since he spin rate stays almost constant as the bullet travels through the air, so to match typical spin rate with a reduced velocity load, you will need a faster twist barrel.
I bought a 350 legend 3 years ago for my son. We have had tremendous success on northern WI deer with that cartridge. Hornady American Whitetail also our ammo of choice. Very effective and efficient. Great blood trails and very short blood trails. I have been extremely pleased and surprised by the lethality. It hits hard no doubt about it. Excellent cartridge.
I like the idea of the 350 Legend better than the 450 Bushmaster but held off since it' isn't a true 358 cal. The new 360 Buckhammer is much more interesting to me and would love to see you do a comparison with the 350 Legend one day. Love the idea of the 360 in a single shot or a lever gun.
From my research, the only difference between the 360 and 350 is the rimmed case for the lever action. I haven't pulled the SAMMI specs yet.
@@Full_Circle_Automation The 350 Legend uses .355" bullets, some reload .357. The 360 is a true .358.
@@gerry6.8with a outdated rimed case smh why can’t they just make a 360 legend. A true .358 with a rebated rim they keep making everything but what I just explained.
I have a 35 Whelen and highly recommend it.
Cant use in straight wall zones, but great cartridge!
@@flynnryder7798 I live in NC so straight wall zones don't apply.
@@robertpickardjr9239 I hunt in akransas now and in regular gun season we can use rifles, but they just allowed straight walls during muzzleloading season, so i picked one up. where i used to hunt, michigan, there are a lot of areas where it's shotgun, muzzleloader, or straight wall only too. That's why these straight walls are becoming popular.
Excuse me if this has been covered already and I missed it, but at what distance were the block set at 100 yards?
450 deer hunter here. Never have had success with Hornady ammo in 450 BM as shown in video it fragments. I like federals or Winchester's Extreme point much better. Hope you reshoot the 450 BM with that load!
I switched to Bear Creek Ballistic solid copper, check them out on TH-cam.
My experience is with the 454 casull in a 20” carbine. Basically the same as 450 BM .
I keep it simple & use cast lead , the 454 is a killer no doubt about it.
More then that , it really pulls pigs up while they’re in full flight .
I never recovered hard cast 300 gr .
Best thing is I found that even 250 gr hard cast @ 1100 fps work brilliantly also , they are just super mild killers .
That gives the the 45 cal carbines a very large operating window.
I’ll be trying air cooled wheel weight alloy next 270gr rnfp & 255gr hp & launched at something around the 1500 .
I’ll keep experimenting till I get a nice mild load , with soft - wide expanding bullet, that doesn’t shed weight & still drives really deep
.
You mentioned the hole in the gel…the 350 legend makes round paper punches like a wadcutter in paper targets at the range…it’s neat. I’ve never shot the 450 bushmaster so I can’t speak to that.
450 BM was my favorite because one of my favorite bang stick companies was Windham Weaponry, which had the 450 Thumper in 450 BM. But these tests have shown, to me, the superior performance of the 350 Legend.
And yes, the Riuger American would be the best choice for an economical hunting rifle for your aunt's 20 acre chunk near the lake.
I've already had a pumpkin spice latte and some pumpkin cheesecake this fall, and it won't be the last time for either 🤣
I slapped my 450 BM Ruger American in a Boyd’s Classic Stock. Topped it with the Vortex 3-9x50 straight-wall. Shoots like a dream
Ive seen the hunting public use the 450 and it absolutely crushes deer. Now 150 yds and in they are both amazing and they’re an even better up close and personal hog round.
WOULD LOVE TO SEE A HEAD TO HEAD BETWEEN THE NOSLER PARTITION AND THE SWIFT A-FRAME IN ANY PAIR OF CARTRIDGES!!!
The Culver's pumpkin spice shake and salted caremal pumpkin concrete mixer are real game changers!
I have hunted the last few seasons with my Ruger Ranch 450 BM with Hornady Black 250gr FTX and I have harvested several deer with it. I always get complete passthrough and the Ruger Ranch is so light that I barely feel the gun carrying it around the woods. I'm a bigger guy so the recoil never bothered me, but I have had shoulder issues this year so I just ordered a Savage 110 Trail Hunter in 350 Legend. I am excited to see how the gun shoots, but also my oldest is 8 this year so maybe she can harvest a deer with it too. I am just happy to live in a time with so many choices and I am grateful to get to go out into the woods. God is good!
I've never shot the 350 and you can't argue with the numbers, but the 450Bushy absolutely smacks dear. It does'nt just knock em down, it knocks em over. I use the barnes bullets, full pass throughs the size of golf balls every time.
I have to say what excited me about the 450 is the 395 grain hornady sub x suppressed.
The 265 sub sonic in 350 will excite you more!
I've used.450 with great success. Several people told me that the.350 failed to open up on certain ammo. So I definitely lean towards the bushmaster
That's usually people that try to shoot through the scapula with the deer season xp poly tip. I shot a buck last year, double lung through the ribs, and he dropped dead in his tracks. 350 legend is amazing. There's meat in my freezer right now from deer that would beg to differ, that 350 doesn't penetrate well
Primary driving force behind the .450 BM was to accommodate those who are forced to hunt shotgun zones in certain states where shotgun and straight wall pistol cartridges are the only choices you have legally.
Both are popular in my area.
Having a 450, I would not suggest it for the recoil sensitive.
My personal choice of sling carrying a rifle is far and away facilitated by the AR platform; low ready, slung across the front. Maybe it’s from years of service but I also hunted with the standard long gun sling setup for far longer.
Apple cider slush; had one from local pumpkin patch here in coastal GA. Now that’s a tasty treat!!
🐈 "Cooged It"! Explains Everything! 😂
I’d get 450 if I had to pick one. It’s the same velocity with a heavier, wider bullet. Gel tests are fun but I don’t put much stock in them. Hunters in the field seem to more favorably review the 450 (not that the 350 is ineffective).
Well, in my area, South Central Texas, the 350 Legend is far and away more popular. More rounds in the mag and follow up shots are a breeze. The Winchester 180gr just won't stop. No matter what angle.
I sold my 450 for a 350 last year.
I hunt whitetail, and 350 is a joy to shoot, especially compared to 450. I enjoy taking it to the range.
It's more than enough to kill a whitetail at its intended ranges. I was able to get 3 last year and none went more than 50 yards.
Also it's a much lighter gun for when im doing drives.
Wasn’t surprised
Never recovered a 170gr 350 L bullet .. two holes .355 in .5 going out …
It’s almost deer season… can we do a 400 legend vs 360 buckhammer?
Next contender…. 360 Buck-hammer vs 350 Legend
My 450 sets in the safe after I got my 350. Taken 8 Ky deer with 350.
Definitely should make the 6arc vs a 223 or 6.5 grendel
Hornady had a podcast on the 450 Bushmaster that covers its development. It is a Hornady-designed cartridge designed around the AR15, the 284 Win case, and their existing 45 cal flex-tipped bullet (originally saboted for muzzleloaders). It and a couple other cartridges (50 Beowulf, 458 SOCOM) were designed to shoot large diameter bullets from the AR15. Jeff Cooper was a big advocate of this style of cartridge, which he called a "thumper". Pretty much the maximum short-range power that could be achieved from the platform.
The Hornady guys stated that for the last 8 or 9 years, the 450 Bushmaster has been one of the top 5 rifle cartridges in terms of ammo they sold, so it is definitely popular in some places in the country.
it was not originally designed by hornady.
it was designed by tim legendre.
bushmaster bought it, and had hornady modify it slightly for different projectiles.
it was originally designed to shoot 230 grain hardball bullets used in the 45acp.
i know, i helped develop it, and own the two prototypes built.
@grayman7208 I would have been more accurate to say that Hornady finalized the design. In the podcast, they mentioned that they changed some things from the original prototype, which is probably what you have. Hornady shortened the case slightly, modified the chamber and did the pressure testing. The main reason that they shortened the case was to use their own existing flextip bullet that needed a longer head height than the original bullets.
@@jfess1911
i know.
i'm very aware of that.
like i said, i helped develop the 450 bushmaster.
@@grayman7208 Yes, and I am indeed impressed by that. It is a good round. I just wanted to correct my original statement for the record.
Was there an original plan for hunting bullets? I suspect that 45 ACP hollow points would have some problems as speeds approached 2,000 fps.
Thanks
@@jfess1911
there is an array of .45 caliber bullets that can be used.
and it was planned that way from the beginning.
it was meant to be a "thumper" relatively close and hard hitting.
just like it is used now.
My experience with 450 bushmaster 16 inch Ruger. Hormady 250 ftx 40 yards buck facing me in a pine cutover thicket. Shot in the neck, went down didn't move. Couldn't find where the bullet went there were lots of pieces when it hit the neck bone. Processing it found the jacket in the shoulder. Shooting across the same cutover, same bullet, 140 yards 2 year old doe. Heard the bullet impact saw the deer jump straight up high in the air. Had a hard time finding the spot of the hit. Once I found blood it was a blood bath. Bullet went in and out front of the chest and didn't hit any organs. She was quartered more than I thought Deer went approximately 75 yards piled up.
Doesn't a 9 mm projectile work in 350 legend?
Yes there are custom .358 350 legend barrels with fast twist but standard barrels are 355 with 1 in 16 twist like 357 mag
I've been debating a 350 Legend upper for my AR, I already have a spare upper and handguard, I would only need the barrel and another red dot. I've definetly never really had an interest in 450 Bushmaster because it always seemed unnessessary out here on the East Coast.
The problem with the hornady is it is a bullet for lower velocity, driven fast it will come apart , when reloading use the magnum labeled bullets , they stay together.
You guys should do this with 6.8spc vs 300blk
I've taken 6 whitetail, 3 big mulies, 4 black bears with 180gr Winchester super X 350 Legend all under 200yds. It absolutely pounds animals. 2 hole gushers every time. What shocks me is the penetration on bears. It blows right through fat like nothing.
I've never recovered a bullet as they exit like a 35 Remington. Just a fabulous low recoil round. My Ruger ranch is my favorite rifle. The guys at camp laughed when I first brought in 4 years ago. They all use this round now. Big thing? Incredible accuracy. I mean.5moa
The 450 bushmaster is one of the top selling hornady cartridges and has been for years. It’s incredibly popular in straight wall hunting areas/states. I might argue that your sample size in central MN where straight wall cartridges weren’t allowed was far too small and didn’t give a good representation of how popular the cartridge has been throughout the US. Maybe should have included the 400 legend in the podcast as well as it aims to bridge the gap between these two.
Shot a 3 and a 1/2 year old Buck with winchestejust 180 grain 350 legend at 220 yd. He ran about 70 yd and fell over. It went through his opposite shoulder. Very impressed
🙌🙌🙌
.350 Legend is a LOT of fun from a pistol.
The 50 AE is the parent case for the 458 SOCOM. Thats where you tripped up ...easy thing to do.
Shooting suppressed tames already acceptable recoil in 450 or 350 in ar15. I love the fact that 20 round mags for 350 work great. Also 6.5 grendel is impressive in ar15
I just don't understand what the 450bm gives you that 45-70 does not.
The ability to legally use it for deer in areas that are limited to a 1.800" max case length, for one.
Shot a doe with my 450 Ruger American 20" barrel double lunge and it went to take its first step and dropped shot at 50 yards. I will say sighting it in I shot 10 times in my arm was shaking a little.
45 raptor sounds interesting too, same diameter as the 450 bushmaster and slightly longer case. I heard its a comparable size difference of 38spec and 357mag. Uses 460 s&w dies and starline makes brass for it, and its for the ar10. But its basically a wildcat round, and you have to build the gun yourself.
158 lb doe at 75 yd DRT. 300 lb hog at 125 yd. Ran 15 ft and flop. This is a great round for a given range.
I'd say biggest lead balloon for a pistol would be 30 super carry
Special thanks to Randy’s Hunting Center Bad Ax, for have Ruger chamber the American for whitetail here in Mi. Nothing fancy just knocks them down👊🏻. 360 Buckhammer when Marlin gets them out.
Good info if you have days to put it together way too slow for me
450 for me! Shot game with both and there is a very noticeable difference on game performance. I shoot Hornaday bkavk 250's in a ruger ranch. Its absolutely my favorite close range rifle. No tracking. I guess the 350 would be good for kids that cant handle the recoil equivalent to a 30-06. Great video!
For the fun of it…do a 30 carbine vs 350 legend. Not to many hunting rounds for 30 carbine…but some.
The reason the 450 came out was shotgun only states. It was a game changer over 12ga or 20ga slugs. It met the criteria to be used in those states. Now you could use a actual rifle chambered in something other then a pistol cartridge. So the straight wall cartridge boom began.
Wonder why we don't hear of ar-15 350 legend for home defense? Slower slug, less blast and sound, lower chance of over penitration and you get a 35 caliber frontal area. Can it up, 14.5" barrel, man that would be a sweet rig.
Agree, that’s a 21st century version of the .357 Mag lever carbine. Re: lower penetration - do you mean lower than .450 Bushmaster? That would make sense. Not lower than 5.56 I’d think.
I've actually thought about doing something very similar, but I ended up getting a honey badger and putting a can on it for my home defense gun. But I think I've talked my dad into getting a AR in 350 legend. He won't do any of the paperwork for a SBR or suppressor, but just getting him to think about anything other than lever guns, pump shotguns or revolvers is a massive step forward.
Re Ryan at 7:10 - my big criterion on AR charging handles is “will it dig into me annoyingly when slung” lol. Gimme those big blunt sided CHs
I think the it'd be a good stopper, but for defensive use you want 100% feed reliability, and I'm under the impression the 350 isn't as foolproof as the 5.56 in that regard.
As an iowa deer hunter who does deer drives i see multiple deer killed by a variety of calibers every year. The 450 dominates the 350 in the real world on deer.
We need a 6.5 grendel vs something. I love that round and want to hear y’all’s view of it.
As someone who hunts michigan and ohio deer (both states with straight wall cart restrictions) I've seen hundreds of deer taken with both carts. I would say, I have seen more bad shots and lost deer with older guys staying true to the 450BM than guys switching to 350Legend. I've seen big bucks eat the Hornaday Whitetail 450, having its shoulder shattered and still running off with no blood trail. It doesn't make sense due to grain, energy and caliber, but in one instance, I've seen a 350 bust through a shoulder, blow through vitals and Crack a rib before exiting dropping a Stout 187 buck where it stood. Just food for thought.
Watch the 450 hornady whitetail test from Mason leather channel and it will make perfect sense. Bare gel at 100yds and the projectile broke apart and didn't even make 12"...
Seems it's a poorly designed projectile threat can break apart too easily and fail to penetrate to vitals.
I wonder if it's just the bullet you used, I used a .450 Bushmaster Hornady Black, and the buck just dropped, may have been the most uneventful kill in Illinois I have ever had over my career. I used a Savage Scout.
I have two 350s and the dies. Fun guns...I need one in a bolt gun...
I’ve taken 2 deer with an AR350. I plan to use a subsonic bullet this season. Culver’s slaps
30/30 and 45/70 comparison next!
If you live in a better state 6.8 SPC > both of these
I think what you guys are missing about the gel is that it is just a comparative medium in this case.
6mm arc vs. 6.5 grendel vs. 224 valkyrie vs. 22 nosler vs. 204 ruger!!! The internet needs a Vortex explanation only you guys can provide! It seems like theres just as much if not more conjecture on these cartridges compared to actual facts. I think this area of expertise would be perfect for your channel. I hope one day you'll help provide these answers haha. 😜🤷♂️
Would love to know the distance the barns bullet will adequately mushroom and perform at. Would like to see 3030 versus 350 legend
I have hunted in MI for many years with a 450 and it has dropped everything I poked it with. I like the fact that if one day I do get the opportunity to hunt bear in the UP I can use the same rifle. With that said, as I get older I wouldn't mind something that hits a little bit more gentle to the shoulder or something that would be easier for the kids.
Suggestion: 308 vs 556 vs 6 arc. What do you guys think?
Often overlooked is that the sound of the 450 will also kill a whitetail if you don’t make a good shot.
300blk is 30 carbine but modernized. change my mind.
I have shot dear with both and happy with the results on both of them. Sweet Gyes I am in Iowa.
If you shot your "DEAR" you are in trouble!LOL!
Just got my fist straight wall cartridge deer gun today. 350 legend. CVA Cascade. One big factor for me is the volume. My friend took a deer with the 450BM, 16", muzzle break, no ear protection as he didn't have time to get it in... His ears were ringing for hours. Hell, that gun hurts my ears with hearing protection in. No thanks.
where would the new .360 buckhammer sit in with these two.
Okay, I'm not saying intermediate cartridges can compare to short action cartridges.
I do like the intermediate cartridges because I LIKE to go to the range and practice. I enjoy shooting for group size. I have taken deer with my reloads in .223. I have and can shoot the 308, it's just not an enjoyable experience.
So, how do these smaller cartridges stack up against each other?
.350 Legend is great if you only plan to buy ammo. Bit minimal on bullets that are .356 that will take it's velocities in that caliber without being too big. There's a number of .452 tough bullets so I find the bushmaster easier to load for from that standpoint. I prefer the 240 gr. XTP Magnums in the bushmaster over the partition. From Hodgdon's website:
450 Bushmaster: Hodgdon Lil'Gun 0.452" 2.225" 35.0 2,158 32,500 PSI 38.5 2,289 35,900 PSI
But with Hammer Bullets Shock hammer in 221 gr. copper, it will do 2459 fps and take this even further into the realm of interesting. .350 legend is a good cartridge for small stature or recoil sensitive, but no where near what the .450 bushmaster can do. I keep mine 18" from my desk and bed. It's got a 3x prism on it as I don't intend to use it past 100 yards, but for clearing an area, as an ex infantryman, I'd take it over the other. For plinking, probably the legend though. You can plink using smaller 185 gr. .451 bullets for .45 acp and a small load of Unique etc.
I'm still waiting for that next lead balloon video to drop 😢
Love you guys
Any thoughts on the 400 Legend?
Would like to see you shoot power max 160 bonded and deer season copper xp 150 thanks for the content !!!
How would the 350 fair against an Elk, given a reasonable distance? (200 yards tops)?
I guess this has made up my mind so far as copper goes
You should always shoot at least two bullets and ballistic gel
350l is not a 35 caliber bullet. It is loaded with .355/9mm bullets. It get around the .357 bullet requirement because on the saami print, the bullet diameter is listed as .357 -.003
Your review failed to include "Just Plain Fun" as a factor. I built my 450 BM upon my escape from a Peoples Republic in the Northeast. It is just ridiculous fun to shoot. You picked the boring Honda Accord over the awesome Muscle Car.
I saw your gel test results, but I can say with 100% certainty my 450 will put a giant amount of hurt on an Axis deer. Half inch entry wound and giant exit wound on Axis deer and whitetail. Everything in between including ribs destroyed.
The Hornady Ammo with the FTX bullet is the way to go BTW.
Can we get Ryan to just romance the 300 WinMag instead of comparing it with the 308 or sharing the show with some of the cartridge. I’ve been waiting and it’s long overdue. 10 minute talk turned into 30.
It appears that the reloaders would prefer a .350 Legend, since you can use a multitude of 9mm bullets in that case... Then create your own special rounds!
pumpkin spice lattes and 6.5 creedmores. lol. things people love to hate. 😂
I’d like to see a Cartridge Talks shootout including the .30-30 Winchester, and have been wondering what the best round would be to compare it to. This test has about convinced me you should do… .30-30 vs .350 Legend.
I mean, we’ve got a 170 gr bullet at around 2200 fps from a handy light rifle, that seems to turn in ballistic performance beyond what you’d expect, and would absolutely slam down a whitetail … that’s your .350 results here, but it’s also what so many .30-30 tests I’ve seen online deliver. Both seem like unassuming, well-mannered over-performers.
I just commented somthing very similar. Ron Spomer did a segment on the subject and had a great ballistics comparison of 350 legend vs 30-30 win. 350 in a light AR15 is similar in weight, power, over all length, effective range, recoil to a Marlin 30-30
450 Bushmaster vs 458 SOCOM? Really anything in regaurds to the 458 SOCOM would be cool to hear about
We will see what we can do for you!
More lead balloons please. And 400 legend, hopefully that's not a lead balloon.
How about doing the 35 Whelen