Will This RUIN Warhammer?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2022
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My store had a 100 foot wall of GW stuff with people always gathering in front to talk about the hobby. That space has been reduced to 30 feet with all the boxes turned sideways and no one standing around it talking. The endless 40k rules bloat has turned even our most die-hard players sour. Combine that with books that release obsolete and new models that come out broken to make them sell tells me they should shape up. I am a old Fantasy player and there is no way I will picking up the new old world system given the sheer amount of greed GW exhibits.
I wonder how many store owners it is by now in my home town have called GW abusive and stopped working with them?
I recently ordered some GW models from my FLGS. When I mentioned that he needed to update his online store, he said that GW forbade him from selling the models online... I guess that competes with GW.
I ordered a Black Coach in March. GW still hasn't gotten it to my LGS. The owners say it's on the order every week. It got to the point I called Games Workshop to make sure the model hadn't been pulled or something.
@@KrullMaestaren I know of at least 2 stores in my area that stopped stocking Warhammer cause it wasn't profitable or the couldn't order the things that were. The main flg still stocks Warhammer but even they say how difficult it is to work with Warhammer even though the staff are long time fans of the products, so glad they started stocking alternatives now to branch out my hobbying palette more.
My local flg gets stock in and it sells almost instantly! It’s legit so popular it isn’t funny
If I were an investor I’d be concerned by them not listing any figures for Warhammer +. Why would they not go into the details for something so integral to their business strategy? I’ve never seen a streaming service purposely hide their numbers.
Yeah I'm guessing that it's doing really really badly atm
Why would they show those numbers? They didn't really show numbers for any of their individual product lines.
@@DiscourseMinis , because there is NO content on there.
You can finish everything at a slow pace in a week
Honestly, I wouldn't be. The platform is almost certainly a loss leader for them at the moment and is pretty clearly in active development. It is likely budgeted to be for a couple of years. Now, that doesn't mean it's performing as they hope, it just means that we should ascribe meaning to things where we have no information.
Lowkey thought you were referencing the annual Warhammer+ models
Oh boy. I can't wait for the $70 Imperial Guard codex that comes out 2 weeks before 10th edition scraps every book for 9th edition. Ratlings are going to be so OP for the first 21 hours after launch before the FAQ nerfs them at the same moment they're sold out online.
I can't tell you how many times I've been in a GW shop when some parent walks into the store for the first time with their kids all excited by all the models and the games only to watch the expression on their faces go from wonderment and anticipation to utter dejection as they realize how expensive is will be getting themselves and their kids into the hobby. Instead of launching themselves and their kids into a new family activity, their shoulders slump as they herd their kids out the door and suggest they go get ice cream.
I worked in hobby shops and selling a parent a highend military model in the 80s we’re spending $75 to $85 plus paints and brushes was nuts. Never mind the RC kits we sold.
It’s all relevant….
This crushed my soul. Wish I could just hand them a Stargrave book.
It could be a good thing for the miniature wargame hobby on a wholistic view. By chasing a ever shrinking demographic, it opens up a new spaces for other Miniatures companies to move in and pick up the cash that GW is leaving on the table. GW are like those dudes who spent a fortune to improve the logistics of ice transportation to compete with refrigerators . I think GW will price themselves out of relevancy. There are plenty of fantastic miniature games out there
That's kind of what I was thinking. They are already pushing themselves to a limit with 3D printing as a competitor. They have released box sets at $300 price tags, but you can get a reliable 3D printer for $250 and a bottle of good resin for $35 and you will be able to make far more miniatures than that GW box set. If GW keeps ramping up the prices, people are going to go elsewhere, or people who want to play will start 3D printing.
Especially with 3d printers rising I just can't see any other affordable war to enjoy GW products that's not relying on eBay rescues
@@raeishimura for sure, I know at least 3/4 in my friend group that won't touch GW stuff due to both the price and better alternatives not to mention how daunting it looks to people brand new to miniature wargaming. And for the price of HH box it's just £15 pounds short of a pretty good mid tire printer I have my eyes on. Literally 3 standard GW box sets will get you a solid mid tire printer, wash and cure machine, resin, all the accessories you need/want and just under 100 bucks to buy stls let alone the amount of free ones available out their too.
That's me in a nutshell. Warhammer has always looked interesting and had a big player base, but when a box of six plastic 40k figures cost as much as 30 (or more) metal WWII miniatures I have to walk away. 40k just doesn't make economic sense for me.
@@PatGilliland plus looking at it arbitrary, price per model is also something that is just getting ridiculous, paying haft an hour's minimum wage for a single plastic model that's apart of a 5 man squad is just too insane, period. Not to mention it is somewhat expected you buy more than one unlike command squads which is typically a 1 time purchase most of the time full of command models. But your basic standard units in the game that run in units of 5 - 10 cost the same as lunch per model, it really wakes us up to the absurdity of their prices and how they even structure the game to enforce this spending to have an if not any enjoyment from the game.
GW going public was the worst thing to happen to the company. Eternal growth is not sustainable or possible.
Only eternal war is sustainable.
:-P
Having been a GW fan/hobbies since 89' I agree 100%. Ruined the fun hobby aspect of it.
Adding a comment to help this climb up the algorithm - something something DISCOURSE IS AWESOME something something.
ALWAYS APPRECIATED!
😂🎉
Discourse!
Three months later ... Bump? ...
It would be interesting to know what the turnover/burnout rate is like within GW's various design studios. I can't imagine it's a healthy environment given the ever increasing volume of stuff that's getting pumped out.
GW are notorious for churning through their designers, most designers in the industry have worked for them at some stage and then they typically go on to found their own studios.
@@DiscourseMinis Hence why GW aggressively obfuscate who it is actually writes their books and designs their models. They don't want another Warlord Games or Perry Miniatures situation, where designers with name recognition leverage that to establish themselves in the industry outside of GW.
I'm sure you're right.
Games Workshop practices, particularly the 40k rules, have pushed me into Star Wars Legion. Less minis on table, about 25-50% cheaper for a box of dudes, and they're putting out boxes at 150.00 USD MSRP that are going to have a full army and then some in a box.
The balance is worlds better too.
Star Wars Legion is fun,I would recommend Marvel: Crisis Protocol as well.
I've really enjoyed my tiem with Star Wars Legion! I have an empire army, small Rebel force and built a small Confederacy army recently :)
@@DiscourseMinis So.. you're a CIS player?? (xd)
@@Trinioutsider34 I own nearly every box Crisis Protocol has put out. There are only 4 I decided to pass on so far. :)
@@ashers9680 Oh, nice. I like the miniatures so much.
Came back to the hobby from about 10 years of absence, the game currently is a dumpster fire and players are fanatic zealots that shit on you when you make legitimate questions, but thanks to this channel I found one page rules and I have been watching videos non stop, thank you, I almost missed on playing with my miniatures again and having fun.
Same dude, I got chewed out by a discord cause I didn't want to spend 2 hrs watching a twitch stream or combing through articles for a month to figure out the release date or a limited launch box cause it doesn't say it in the main article it's featured on. Not to mention between costs and rules, I need more books for a simple 1000pt game as going to school let alone the research, set up, over all shear time just to be prepped to play a game feels like I'm getting ready for an exam. For me I will recommend OPRs from now on, not just cause it's free (which would be a big help in itself) but because it's simple and I can play a small game with friends in 2-3 hrs with the same scale as 40k but without the 6-8 hr play time not to mention the research prior.
Yeah OPR is the next thing man.
@@theDackjanielz It certainly looks so, almost everyone I hear talk about it loves the balance of the game, the simple compact rules that can be adjusted to get more technical, and lack of rules bloat
Wizards of the coast have been doing the same with a fast paced amount of products released for Magic the Gathering. It helped them make a ton of $$$$ during the last 2 years. it has become very tiring for consumers.
Yeah tbh, I've been watching Wizards with a lot of concern. Games Workshop are looking to emulate that rate of releases.... It's even worse for us though because each individual purchase is a massive investment of time and effort
@@DiscourseMinis time effort and money for sure, at least with Wotc they had the common sense to have a standard version for cheap in regular boxes and a whale premium version for the whales. What are your thought if GW were to take the secret lair model from Wotc and use it to produce some specialist models they would never normally be able to do in a mass release?
But there is no reason to buy all GW releases. Most of the armies just get a few new models each edition.
Yesterday, I had to redo the compliance training my employer requires us do every 6 months. I was working my way through the rules, and noticed that everything we're not allowed to do (abusing market position, making purchases contingent on other purchases, etc) all sounded REMARKABLY familiar.
At our local club two players play 40K, four players play One Page Rules using GW figures and 16 of us are now playing Deadzone from Mantic Games.
Another problem for Games Workshop is on a Thursday night about twenty people would go to our local Games Workshop store, would talk GW, play GW, buy GW and build and paint GW.
Now stores no longer offer that service people have just drifted away.
By GW store, do you mean an actual GW store? If so, I agree, few of their branded shops are more than a shoebox. If you mean an LGS that merely sells GW stuff, I haven't seen anything different over the last 20+ years. It's kind of necessary to stay in business as an LGS. More time around the stuff & interacting with the systems, the easier it is to justify a purchase & more likely they are to spend money.
The LGSes that don't offer a play/hang space, that I've been to, tend to be the ones to shut down fastest.
@@PinoyCarter l meant an actual GW store.
My local gw still does Thursday nights
@UCyUGGteLSTFnwE6H4FIeGXA as l stated 16 people are playing Deadzone.
No one is playing Necromunda or Kill team despite various boxes of the games being available.
@@timothylyons5686 Dunno where this was intended to be. I haven't heard of deadzone. Necromunda never really popped off in the three cities I play. Kill Team's actually been fairly popular as a side game during 40K time and a more dedicated day 1-2 times a month. I wish it was the other way around but KT isn't even just the skirmish starter for 40K around here.
Something that would interesting too see, but will never see in a document like that is, how many of those "more miniatures sold this fiscal year than ever" are actually not in hand of player/hobbiest but collecting dust on a shelf of a Hobby/Gaming Store because they are priced well outside normal peoples budgets and GW won't let them lower the prices under the threat of being banned as a reseller.
Personally I loved the privateer press strategy of every 6months to a year they would give a big set of releases with every faction getting one or two new units, resculpts and bit of lore. This way all the players get something new and you don't get massive shifts in the meta.
Hasn't exactly worked out well for them since they just announced Mk 4 and they're tossing most of those old models out with the bathwater.
Sounds sensible
@@soapboxk2203 The business model mentioned was the one they employed in MK 1 and 2. In the MK 3 era they switched to something closer to faction releases/updates ala games workshop while mostly dropping the production of fiction.
GW game players: The cost of models is too high, GW's market strategy is untenable, WTF is up with this crazy release schedule.
Also GW game players: Runs out and buys the latest FOTM army/release and then wonders why no one wants to play against their mortal spamming Tyranid list. If you don't want GW to do GW things, stop. Stop buying their models, stop making content about them, stop talking to your buddies about it, etc. There are plenty of other game systems that would love your dollars, your audience, and you watercooler chats.
Great insights. Well worth the wait. Props to you not letting any of this slip in the last livestream.
Haha thank you Adam!! Gotta keep mum for those big clicks :D
Great discussion. I have a bit of nostalgia for Games Workshop. I remember when they mostly created small one-off games, imported DnD, Traveller and others, White Dwarf was independant and citadel miniatures were seperate. For me their highlight was around the mid-1980's to early 1990s. Warhammer came out, Talisman, Judge Dredd, Mordheim and dozens of others. Then Warhammer 40k came out and seemed amazing. Their products were a bit more expensive than others, but still affordable and easy entry. Remembering all of this, I would love to still like them, but I cannot. For me they lost their way years ago. Such a shame
That mirrors my own experience with Games Workshop. Exactly so. Damned shame.
I want to thank you for going one of several TH-camrs who highlight companies like Wargames Atlantic and One Page Rules. Between them and 3D printing in general I've been able to rediscover my excitement a joy from miniature wargaming. My gaming group recently gave Grimdark Future a try and immediately fell in love with it. My friend who's been playing 40k since 3rd edition said he hasn't enjoyed a game as much as that in many years.
I think 40k, with its lore and market share, has turned into a stepping stone in tabletop wargaming. Sort of like D&D. They're the widely known system a lot of people start with but I think a lot of people are then moving on from them. They still produce some of the best miniatures on the market, their lore is rich and fun, but their rules are bloated and terrible. I'm looking forward to adding non-GW armies to my collection.
The amount of money they have made out of me in recent years has dropped massively. 10 years ago it was likely I could spend 100/150 month religiously on models an things I wanted. Now gw will get maybe a paint every few months. I'm financially able to comfortably spend far more but the products aren't something I want nor are the rules. The few models I do want ill get from recasts or 3d printers. Gw is so far from base with their pricing that I just won't support them last model I bought was a mechanicum lord just for bits to cut up. 😅
Thus is similar for us. There is a 40k community at our flgs, but we have a small but growing group that are basically non-gw. Opr, song of blades and heros, pulp alley, even battletech Alpha Strike and now Bolt Action. There are many games that do not require anywhere near gw's and imho are better games and we are having a blast exploring them. Free from gw!
Great review of the annual report. Good analysis of what the future outlook probably is.
Every time I see you go off about business practices, market share and shareholder dividends it reminds me of that thumbnail a few weeks ago with you saying RAWR. Go get 'em champ.
rawr :D
Good luck with the channel, I really hope it continues to grow👍I know I'll keep watching 🤘
Thank you Thomas!!!
@@DiscourseMinis no worries. I love that your focus is on us war gamers 👍
I've typically been most motivated to paint and play by playing in local small tournaments. We play 750 point tournaments monthly and 1500 point tournaments quarterly. Its designed to get people into the store and the smaller ones are designed to be mostly friendly to new players. I skipped the last one completely; I'm tired of rules creep. I'm tired of losing every time to the same 2 people who buy the newest army every time a codex comes out. I'm tired of playing my army near perfectly and still consistently losing just because the other army has better rules. I'm annoyed that I can play a game really well and accept that losing by less than 5 victory points is basically the best I can expect to do with my army, since it's codex is a bit out of date. God forbid I want to play my imperial guard stuff.
You just convinced me to never get into playing warhammer lmao. I am getting into painting the beginner $35 value packs but will probably just paint offbrands that look better cheaper, because I don’t plan on playing ever
@@DouglasCarter69 I completely agree, I've been with Warhammer for nearly a decade and a half and after all that time I can not in good conscience or fate recommend or even try to get my friends or even anyone into Warhammer for the most part. However, after watching this channel and others like it, it has shown me that just cause I don't like Warhammer doesn't mean I don't like wargamings. For me I recommend 3d printing or some sort of cheap 3rd party minis that fits what you want and using OPR's games instead to get in. Over all using OPR's game system, printing paper models form them too and glueing the paper to cardboard for more solid cut out models and terrain. It looks good and works well as a great start into it, I myself use the paper terrain glued on cardboard with my 40k minis and it works great. All I can say is give up on GW, it's a fools hope, but don't give up on wargaming in general, they're other roads to the same place.
They print rules faster than I can get used to them. Every game feels like an exam.
@@DouglasCarter69 I've been using the GW models for other games. If I like another system's models, I'll buy them. But not yet.
I think you're doing an great job. I got back into the hobby during lockdown, but the prices are out of control. So instead of buying a $300 Shield breaker box set. I'm getting an 3D Printer for slightly less. Thank you so much for staring me to an better path.
So much has changed, somehow nothing has changed…
One of the reasons I left GW 12 years ago…
Great video, keep it up ^^
"The more things change, the more they stay the same!" - Snake Plisken (Kurt Russel)
The pace of releases around 1999/2000 was perfect.
You actually got projects finished before the next release came around that captured your attention...
Congrats on going full time with the channel!
i havent gotten the chance to join the streams a lot. didnt know you've decided to go full speed on the channel. Best of luck and stay healthy !
I just saw the pragmatically patient bit, and my cynical mind instantly jumped to our good ol' friends at GW blaming any loss of profit from WH+ on the newly hired content creators and other streaming services like Netflix. We shall see
Thoughtful observations on the report.
Do we have any info on the development costs of their subscription service?
It's nipple the number of releases.... Fair shakes for free gooses....
I’m in the _Games Workshop is dying_ camp.
But that may just be wishful thinking on my part.
I started with 2nd edition and stayed through the beginning of 6th, which is when GW started to go over the cliff IMO. Even adjusting for inflation, the cost of a basic squad has priced a lot of potential players out of the market, not to mention the impact of COVID shipping delays, user-unfriendly GW store environments and an absolutely hostile response to fans and content creators (based on the few videos I've watched about how the hobby has developed).
Ironically, the price and time commitment pushed me into re-exploring board games which has consumed the majority of my hobby budget. One bad annual report (even two or three) doesn't destroy a company, but you're absolutely correct that the C-suite is pushing whatever they think will work to satisfy the desire for ROI- which is the fundamental problem with GW, or any business that fails to read the market and strike an appropriate balance between its consumer base needs and those of the shareholders. GW's CEO is only interested in short-term targets to meet his/her/their performance bonus thresholds- what the consumers actually want or value doesn't matter.
I presume players want GW to be profitable because that translates into opportunities for the hobby people love, but the macroeconomic environment is very poor for a niche, luxury product when players are prioritizing filling their gas tanks or affording the weekly food bill now.
an Aussie here, we are having supply issues, It takes months for any models we order to arrive
This is why i switched to Infinity from Corvus Belli.
I have a bunch of friends who love Infinity - i'm playing a demo game with them to try it out this week :)
@@DiscourseMinis I play Yu Jing, Haqq and Tohaa. Only got the Mag for Haqq for my only TAG. Gotta get some more Tags and maybe start an Aleph force.
"Only fit to drive a sane man mad" -
Discourse : - "I am no MAN!"
Awesome stuff! Dusted off my old WHF models and started playing Rangers of the Shadow Deep with my son. 😋
This is vampires running the blood-bank.
Being a gamer in Australia we are boxed in by import restrictions the exchange rate and years of price rises over and above the “normal” price rises
realy glad your channel is doing well keep the videos coming
Generals sound bite was a nice touch.
Bring back affordable blister packs!
YES!!
@@BonusHole , no, they were pewter, three imperial guard for £3:50 or a termie for £5.
@@BonusHole yep!👍
The pricing on the box sets is what's getting me into 3d printing.
Hercules and the doughnut joke really got me 🤣🤣🤣
I still remember the way I found you youtube channel: I was miserably scrolling r/Grimdank (don't know if there is another state of mind to scroll reddit) when I saw a post shitting on you so hard and I knew, I someone from that subreddit hates something so fervently, it has to be good. And here we are today.
Could you do a video on other companies using existing IPs?
Mantic using so many for example.
Them using KS would make sense because they wouldn't sell normally
The report is both No cause for alarm and is no reason for change. To have increasing sales against a 5.5 percent loss of net margin is to have a solid business that has some room for efficiency gains, and no crisis in the market or the company.
Agreed and for the life of me I can’t understand why people get upset about more releases. You’re not obliged to buy them all and like most people I’m too busy to be worried about what a company is doing.
More releases is bad for us because it means that the designers are being spread thinner to hit deadlines, more releases saturates the market & fills shelf space on retail stores meaning that they can't dedicate as much space to other games, and more releases means MORE CONTENT usually beyond whether it's good or not. It's just enough that it's MORE.
@@DiscourseMinis Without knowing how many designers GW have, compared to workload is a bit of a waste. They are a company who want to be the number one in their market (like most major businesses), you can call it saturating while others may call it diversifying. I'm not interested in buying a full 40k army but I'm happy to get into Kill Team so I'm glad they have started pushing it. Also looks like the HH is doing very well in sales, so that tells be GW are creating products people actually like and want to buy.
I get it, this sort of anti big business content sells but you have to remember that GW products are popular for a reason, not because their customers are mindless zombies but because they like what they see. If this sort of thing gets you views then cool, it just seems so one sided it's turns into 'Oh, it's Discourse Miniatures getting upset with GW again' *shrug* it maybe true it may not be.Maybe a bit of balance would go a long way.
Interesting overview, and unsettling peek behind the GW curtain. For long term success they do need to adapt especially in the face of a golden age of wargaming, there's never been so much choice for game systems, genres, scales and terrain, although seeing a few smaller outfits disappearing. I do have a request though, could you maybe do an overview of the Batman Miniatures game from 1st to current ed, and what resources are avaliable for the various editions, such as character stats or do you only get those if buy the models?
Thanks for doing this. Love you.
games workshop has the ability to offer better quality for value by giving more models per box than the competition, as valve says if gw offers a better experience than 3d printing then they can beat them but right now they strangely don't care
They don't care because they are still out selling everyone in their market.
3d printing is great but it isn't the Communist Revolution that some are making it out to be. There are many hobbyists who don't have the space, time or technical experience to get a 3d printer.
3d printing isn't going to be a true existential threat to GW until a major player embraces 3d printing as their main production method....which Privateer Press just did for the Warmachine Mk 4 announcement. I'm not sure PP can step back in the ring with GW and go 12 rounds like they did back in the mid 2010s, but if their new relaunch works, others may follow suit and then that could start to really threaten GW.
Although Horus Heresy might offer a glimmer of hope there as the fact it's now considered a core product implies it's had particularly strong sales, and at UK 3rd party retailers at least that was a pretty good value boxed set. The hope is they compare that to something like Ash Wastes or the Black Templar box and realise that offering better value results in a lot more sales.
@@soapboxk2203 Privateer Press going into 3D printing is weird. Injection moulding is much more efficient on a large scale due to lower costs of operation.
So far PP has said nothing about selling files for 3D printing, which would exploit the biggest strength of the technology, total removal of transportation and material costs.
Fantastic as always! Thank you 😊
I miss the Smurfs!
This is why i turned entirely to doing 3D printed armies. I'll buy/loan the books and paints but as far as models go it's not worth the price anymore where i can pay a nearly half-three times off for the same quantity and quality of models.
I’ve read the full report and for them to record growth on last year is remarkable.
I expect a dip next year and everyone will be selling it as a crisis but it clearly won’t be.
16:06 c+c generals was incredible
commenting for generating more engagement
❤️ I was waiting for this video.
It is my sincere hope that GW finally go too far with price gouging and predatory/reprehensible business practices in the face of a massive looming recession and they crash very hard, are unable to recover financially, and then they get bought up cheap by some other company that will better manage the games and the business of selling them, and manage to do it without treating the fanbase/customer base with barely disguised contempt like GW does. I love the WH40k universe and IP. I hate the corporation that owns those IP rights, as well as the despicable corporate culture that suffuses it.
Disney will buy them, beware what you wish for
Great video :)
So Smurf is it a utopia for the Smurfs because one because there is only 1 lady smurf or is it a utopia for Smurfet because there is so many smurfs?
It's not that I want GW to do badly. Still, this reminds me that I'm happy to see Mantic Games do better year over year, and their sci-fi and fantasy wargames expand. Kings of War in particular does seem to be gaining traction with filling the hole left by Warhammer Fantasy. Of course, it might help that Mantic kept themselves a private company. Without shareholders to beat them up, they have more leeway to keep their games affordable. And not rush to release new things for the sake of it.
ive given up trying to keep up. i was a die hard kroot fan but wont even be touching the new kill team. ive gone back to dropship commander, and getting into one page rules and looking forward to lunar arriving.
This was a good video! My only question is, is there a study/source saying that the actual number of gamers is falling? Or is this just speculation based on public discourse (ehehehe)
It's fomo to disguise prices. If there's enough out there then the bottom line stabilizes imo
Thanks for the like discourse! I recently got back into table top games after a long hiatus thanks to 3d printing technology. Now I'm making my own models, take that GW! :) I just broke 100 subs on cults 3d.
Good luck going it alone. Never realised I was a whale until I started watching your Chanel, it was just a case of buying over my limit now and paying back later (which never happens). The realisation is quite overwhelming and I now feel quite resentful towards GW like you would an African prince who promised you £60 000 000 but just empties your bank account.
"my desire to be that donut!" lol
Utopia does indeed feel smurf like.
Australia has a huge mark up on the price.
Love you discourse! Ty for your content. 🥰🥰
Yeah, I would say you are spot on, however; GW has always had predatory consumerism as a business model. The prices have always been high, the customer service has always sucked, and they've continuously been shitty to their employees. Their initial office slogan was "Eat the Rich" right? Now they just have other sociopaths to hold them accountable to an unrealistic bottom line. The irony of the aforementioned slogan and their current masters isn't lost on me. It seems to me that GW has always preyed upon the children of the middle class, only since going public have the REAL capitalist Cossacks shown them what a feast can be. And now they are beholden to uphold their corporate daddies' rampant consumerism. The best thing for Warhammer is for people to stop playing Warhammer, and start finding better miniatures by better people with better rules.
This may not be the expected place for my comment but since this is the most recent video I shall try to feed the algorythm by posting here anyway: Thank you very much for making me aware of OnePageRules. After having played Warhammer Fantasy Battles from 1998 until the late 2000s I left Wargaming behind (but kept my stuff, especially my discontinued Bretonia army). Last week I desperately needed a project for my eldest son's holidays between end of Kindergarten and his first school term so I set up two 750-Point Armies in OPR AoS Regiments. We have been playing daily for a week now, and soon we/he will start painting his first knight on a pegasus. Thank you very much for repeatedly mentioning OPR, the rules and playstyle really work for us even though I translate the rules and terms roughly into german as we go. I know there is a german translation available but this helps me in keeping consistency with the Army Forge Tool. EDIT: And it all came back to me when we accidently broke the pin of the end of the flybase because of course this was bound to happen ;-)
I came here for GW news and the hypnotizing purple background but what I found is the true meaning of life: being tyranid food. I now finally have a goal I can achieve, thanks Discourse! BTW your cutter has the best humour on the entire planet!!!
Nice video!
In other news warmachine and hordes is getting a 4th edition with new models said to be in production.
"The future does not look good for us."
You might say it looks grimdark. The future, that is.
It’s absolutely true on the licensing end of Warhammer. This year I bought a couple of the new Eldar releases and besides that I’ve really stopped buying any additional miniatures. However, the Joytoy figures that have been releasing lately have taken all of my money instead.
I’ve tried to get friends into the hobby only for them to look at the miniature prices and run. But figures like Joytoy or McFarlane? Those reach a wider audience and attract people that normally wouldn’t look twice at Warhammer products. And thats not even mentioning Dark Tide or Space Marine 2 that are coming out ‘relatively’ soon.
And that’s just a couple examples. Expanding the IP into areas other than the currently ludicrously priced war game side can do nothing but help them. However my only concern is if it will eclipse the tabletop aspect and cause unfortunate consequences as a result. Who knows. For me personally I’m just glad there are finally figures I can pose and put on my shelf. Especially the dreadnaughts, love the big stompy boys
If we all forgo a new box of minis this month and instead buy some GW stock, would we be able to collectively pressure them in better directions?
Thanks for the breakdown. Shame that there is no pressure for GW to change their ways yet. I will be so sad if I have to watch the old world game die as a possibility for me to play before I even buy a single product.
Just adding all of the rules and model stats are free and available online for Para Bellum's Conquest games, both Last Argument of Kings and First Blood. 😜👍
I think the future looks great, because now I have dozens of small creators I can support who make high quality minis and decent rule sets, and I can actually Convince people to play the game with me unlike 40k.
Really enjoying your content. Glad you're shining a light on GWs shitty business practices. I'd like to see more content on where to look for new war gaming options. Like, how can we direct people who are being disenfranchised by GW to other games and companies that actually support their player base?
Well it couldn’t go on forever
Thank you for the video. I loved it! Excellent analysis! I'm shocked... I got married to Games Workshop 22 years ago. She was the prom queen of the game industry, you know? I promised to be faithful and everything. I started to feel guilty when I caught myself looking at other miniatures and rulebooks. What was happening to me!? One day I even bought a starter set for Warmachine! I felt so dirty back then but I liked it. So, I kept on cheating on GW, finding love in other game systems and minis. I deserve it, right? But the more I kept looking at other games, the more GW was asking for more and more. I gave so much to GW... I felt used. Now I know GW's love is not real.This is the new ME. I share my table with Bolt Action or Flames of War on Fridays. I play around with One Page Rules games on Thursday nights. I even have time for other games on Saturdays. Sundays though, are sacred. Those are for painting miniatures and listening to hobby podcasts. And guess what!? I even have some money on my pockets! Enough to pay the rent, though.
I love that you shouted out Wargames Atlantic. I am hoping that their Death Fields game really takes them to the next level whenever is launches. It still blows me away that you can get 48-60 minis from WGA for the just over the cost of ten Primaris.
When it comes to China, the median income is about 5000 usd. If GW charge the same price increase they do when ever it ships out of the UK, then it would be the most unaffordable thing imaginable.
At this point I only buy models if they’re “reasonable” from GW and then print the rest like tau I bought a combat patrol and printed the rest and then tyranids I bought a combat patrol and start collected and some stuff all from 3rd part and 3D printed the rest honestly want to print out more eternal dynasty cause they’re like super cool models big over watch energy kinda
Is that the trapdoor thunderclap?
I wonder if the Tyranids will get a new model this decade
Wizard of the coast tried to do the same thing and the testing quality has not followed. They are not able to test their rules fast enough for the new release calendar and there was a lot of magic cards banned in the recent lyears. Therte is also a swiing from release to release where the players try to buy the better one and they don't have enough money to buy the other ones which probably make it more difficult to plan a print run because there is low and high
Discourse. I'm a big fan. I've watched all your stuff and it's probably because of this that I feel the need to write this. I couldn't find any other way of contacting you. I'm one of those non tech savvy people that grew up in the 80s that everyone loves in stranger things but in real life in the present day they find us creepy. Anyhow, the background music in your videos does my head in:( it feels like I'm trapped in an elevator with someone who is so nervous about being trapped in an elevator with me (probably on account of me eating the other people trapped in the elevator (I'm imagining this taking place over a long period of time)) that all they do is talk about GW in the hope that I forget my growing hunger. As I say I'm a big fan, if I was trapped in a lift with you, you would probably be the last person I ate but the I sometimes find myself focussing on the backing music loop and it's cheeky little synth sound really start earworming into my soul. As I say no criticism, just some feedback.
haha thanks Dark Future, it's the elevator ride FROM HELL
Congrats on going full-time!
Thank you!!
Great stuff friend 👏 👍
Can you make a video supporting the "Great Wargaming Survey" it is a great way to get a pulse on the hobby.
interesting... good vid!
0:00 - 0:20 Very much appreciated. Thank you for your sacrifice ;)
Nice work Discourse, I myself can't justify giving GW more hard earned money. I've listened to your many well thought out videos. I decided to dive in on other game systems that are more affordable and fun. I'll dive into old specialist games with my old minis and one rulebook.. thats you Gothic. The GW mini's are nice, I just have little enthusiasm for their price hikes and future fomo announcements..
Was a fun ride ... time for other things.
Supporting!
Well after the stock crash should be a could purchase
Tl:Dr I and a few of my buddies started playing casually recently and all enjoy and are having a good time with the games.
Long version:
Unpopular opinion (maybe?): I started Age of Sigmar during the beginnings of the pandemic, I played 40k prior to that. I don't play much 40k, I have 4 armies so I don't need more. I still occasionally add models to the armies I own if I want them. As for AoS I play weekly, I now own 3 armies 2 of which started with big starter boxes. I've got 1 built and painted, 1 built and almost painted, and 1 in the box as my next army to work on. I got into it with a few buddies and we all enjoy our weekly or biweekly casual games and each of us has been having a blast with AoS 3.0, models haven't been super overpriced in our opinion. $300 for an army we build and maintain for years to come and play consistently similar to our (slightly)older 40k armies is worth the money for us since we look at this as a 1 time long term investment. We're all in our 30s-40s and are fortunate enough to have income and time to spare for our hobbies. Sr of us of us are brand new to the hobby in the last 2 - 4 years. Others like myself have been playing longer in the 7-10 year range. But we are out there. We exist and I have no data to back this up lol but I'd wager I'm not entirely alone in my experience.
I don't think this means you shouldn't perform these analyses, they are important and helpful to the community at large. I'm just offering perspective from the people who their current marketing and business process is reaching effectively.
You are the target demographic of GW, 30-40 with plenty of disposable income....married with kids? a mortgage?
Great video,but I disagree slightly about the China market. I have been living in China for 5 years now and the Warhammer hobby is huge over here.
I am in various groups of WeChat (Whatsapp version of China) and 98% of the members only play GW games.
Whenever I tell people about Carnevale, Deadzone, Firefight and other games,very few people seem interested.
I have been to some of the Warhammer stores in Shanghai, Shenzhen and Hong Kong and they're pretty full. The Shenzhen one not as much because the store is pretty big.
I have met a few people talking about infinity, but that was three years ago. There has to be people that play the game because they do sell the models, but it doesn't seem as big as the GW crowd. Of course,this is all anecdotal. I just wanted to share what I have seen over here over the years. Keep up the great work.
Thanks so much Danny! I don't have great insight into the Chinese market but I'm really fascinated with it. I had been lead to believe that Infinity was really popular :o
@@DiscourseMinis No worries. It's understandable. I'm sure that Infinity does sell because I constantly see the models on taobao,but GW gets more traction because of their stores and products all over taobao as well.
I do wish that more people would leave the GW ecosystem. Anyway, I will have to wait for my next two Carnevale orders to arrive and get them ready for the tabletop 😁. Keep up the great work.
"...then they cackled evily, turned into a column of bats, and flew off into the night!"... Discourse, it is beyond my abilities to explain just how hard and for how long this made me laugh without any sort of control. You won the internet with that one.
I've been screwed by the release of boxes in past year that had minis of two factions I play. LOL 😭
will say id love them to atleast get all the army codex's out kinda tired of having to use 3 books and alot of printed off FAQ's to run my Imperial Guard Army