How fighting game developers prevent infinites
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ต.ค. 2023
- Source for the One Must Fall 2097 combo footage: • OMF2097 - Shredder 100...
Source for the Killer Instinct footage: • Arcade Longplay [005] ...
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Now we need a full breakdown of how Hokuto no Ken tried and failed to prevent infinites, accidentally giving birth to basketball the fighting game
I think this gone over many people's head. They don't know the fist of the north star game and the bouncy infinite 😂😂
Tried: Juggle Decay by making the character "heavier" so they drop faster and fall out of the combo.
Failed: Forgot to add "Hard Knockdown" so that characters will bounce once, maybe twice, and stay glued to ground with out a hitbox and be susceptible to OTG attacks.
Result: WELCOME TO SPACE JAM!
@@janematthews9087Let's not forget when Mike Z pulled it off in that one BBCS tourney
Chunli has a infinite combo...
With chinese characteristics
In mugen i have a infinite combo with sauceboss vinny
Hokuto no Ken (HNK) is pretty unique in that, in their attempt to implement infinite prevention, ArcSys inadvertently created the potential for them, instead. "Basketball combos" being a thing that's actually the result of how the system's infinite prevention works when clashing with the rest of the game's systems. Technically, the game's not supposed to let them happen, but they do. It's hilarious every single time, particularly when they're being commentated by the JP scene's commentators.
I have no proof of this, but what I think happens is a float value underflow. It's probably something along the lines of a number that's determines the amount of "floatiness" your character has when hit, and gets reduced every time your character gets hit. You can get hit too much though and this value goes under 0, triggering a reverse effect instead.
Also, it's not a unique system, it's a legacy system at ArcSys and you can see it in action in Guilty Gear 1, in HnK and also Sengoku Basara X that I know of, maybe others.
@@RhannmahThere's nothing actually going wrong with the programming of the infinite prevention mechanic, it's only an unfortunate result of two mechanics working exactly as intended.
The longer the combo lasts, the higher your gravity value gets, and the faster you fall towards the ground. That gravity value only goes up. This properly functions.
When a character falls to the ground, they bounce off the ground a little bit to sell the impact of their fall, and they'll bounce in different ways depending on how they fall so it'd look natural. This also properly functions.
They somehow didn't realize that characters falling to the ground very fast would make them bounce really high.
@@clashmanthethird Oh yeah, that makes sense. But then you'd think that the ground bounce would be extremely limited since the gravity is so high, but gravity is probably not factored in until you start falling during the bounce.
THEYRE FUCKING BALLIN
I feel like the aim behind infinite prevention mechanics isn't to prevent them at all, but to prevent them for long enough that the game isn't known for them at release. It's like how a lot of old piracy protection was more intended to delay pirates than fully stop them; you can't stop them, but you do want them to stay away during the big defining part of your game's release window.
The difference with that is that pirates are constantly developing new technology. But in an unmodded version of a fighting game, you can only find an infinite if one does in fact exist.
For Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3, I think only one viable infinite strat was ever really found, that being the TAC infinite. Like in this video's explanation about not falling out of supers, UMvC3 didn't want opponents to fall out of TAC (Team Aireal Combo) hits. But it's supposed to end when either player becomes grounded. However, doing certain strings of attacks lets you land and re-jump during a frame where the game seems not to consider you grounded, allowing the combo to continue indefinitely. If it weren't for this one odd interaction, we might still have some touch of death combos given enough resources, but basically no viable infinite combo setup.
@@ZeekfoxI think the fact that this is a glitch makes it a moot point. It feels completely irrelevant to bring up something wholly accidental when the original comment was in direct relation to the developer's intentions.
@@CSmyth- Relevant info to the video. The TAC thing was mentioned, though not shown. And there's always going to be some glitch or weird interaction that gets passed initial testing that developers didn't foresee happening.
Guess I should have just made that part a separate video comment?
There are no video games without exploits--just games that haven't been played enough to have found them.
Well yeah and no the only way you can be exploited people from figuring shit like this out is to not have combos at sll
I forgot which game it was but I saw a kusoge that had uncapped damage scaling to the point where infinites would eventually start dealing negative damage and healing the opponent. It’s obviously easy to avoid in practice but I think it’s one of the only known instances of an unintentional infinite prevention system and one of my personal favorites.
I think the cool thing to realize is that in the olden days, you couldn't patch a game. So whatever combo-breaker mechanic you shipped with was what people had to work with. Now developers can work on patches to address infinite combos more dynamically.
I still remember a guy I knew in college who invited me over to play his new BlazBlue game. The only controls he taught me was the burst skill and then infinite combo'd me with Tager like 20 times. Never went back to hang with him after that.
my favorite is Hokuto no Ken's where in an attempt to prevent infinites, they went for gravity scaling. the way it was implemented tho was clashing with all the other mechanics that it actually enabled more instead
No talk of Primal Rage?
That one had a "No cheese" rule that was kinda like Skullgirls where if it detected what could be an infinite, it would bring up an icon of a slice of cheese and prevent you from doing the attack again for a while.
I think it's crazy that maximum damage came back (in a sense) to MK. It's not a mechanic I find very creative, and I think the games you mentioned have much more interesting alternatives.
Even then, maximum damage doesn't make infinites or just excessively long combos worthless. I've seen the 45 second Shang Tsung combo in MK1, in a game where the round lasts only 90 seconds, being able to burn half of that off can easily be a checkmate situation, even if it stopped doing damage 20 seconds ago.
And we're not even gonna start on the HNK "Time-out infinite" that can't possibly kill before the timer runs out.
Edit: Turns out I'm severely uneducated about MK's combo mechanics. You're not talking about the combo scaling to 0 damage, you're talking about the forced combo break from doing too much damage... which is funny because that means the Shang combo I'm talking about doesn't do enough damage to actually trigger infinite prevention thanks to it's extreme combo scaling.
It feels like they added in Maximum Damage in a patch as an emergency bandaid while they try to figure out something more substantial to curb combos
@@lancergt1000the first versions of mk1 had infinite juggles, I don't remember when the forced break came in but it was quite late
I think Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: All Star Battle R should also be brought up. It's like the first game you mentioned, but it's instead 3 times per move. It lets players get loops but doesn't let them get too crazy... though timestop shenanigans can break those rules by "resetting" the combo and start a new combo without the opponent being able to do anything.
JoJo mid
@@Zenbon111Nice bait
@@jhozanNah, that bait ain't really nice, it's awful in how obvious it is.
I do like how TAUNTING is an important part of doing combos lmao
Or at least was, haven't played in the last few months and missed some DLC chars
imo any discussion about infinite prevention mechanics is incomplete without mentioning Mortal Kombat 4’s Maximum Damage mechanic, which forcibly ejected both players from a combo if that combo did 40% damage or more
There was an exploit... OR TWO
(that I recall)
It came back in MK1. But I velieve it is on 60% onwards
There were a few ways to ignore it. Wall splatting with the spiked club weapon could let some characters get ToDs anyways. And MK Gold messed stuff up as well, but that’s just MK Gold for you.
I don't know if you mentioned this, but getting a counter hit in Skullgirls actually causes you to subtract a certain amount of drama based on the attack that got the counter, meaning for even longer combos since counter hit combos can start with the drama gauge in the negatives
Oh! I didn’t even know Skullgirls rewarded counterhits like that. That’s really neat to learn
Nice One Must Fall 2097 shout-out, I played it a ton as a kid. Aside from being a great game, it also had great music and a surprisingly fun campaign mode that had you purchase your mechs and repair them after every fight.
Same. I had that game as well. It was so cool to upgrade your mechs and get faster and stronger.
Loved this game back in the day - super fun game. Got the free version and HAD to get the full game
One Must Fall 2097 was the best!... It's too bad the sequel failed.
I'm sure other skullgirls players already pointed it out but it's worth noting that a skullgirls burst can ONLY be punished when the burst WHIFFS. If it whiffs, it becomes a blue burst which puts them in counterhit state, if it hits or is blocked, it becomes a gold burst which lets the opponent block before landing. If it is blocked, you can still get a mix up though.
i really like how strive makes their walls breakable, for new fighting game players they're pretty intuitive (hit guy near wall until it breaks) and it prevents the game from having to stare at your character get juggled for 20 seconds once they land a hit. then when the wall breaks, instead of resetting to equal neutral the one that broke the wall was given a reward for doing that combo, or if they use a super it's just free oki. the opponent is given a chance to defend themselves but the attacker still has the upper hand so it's players don't have to find workarounds for hitting long combos that ends up punishing the attacker
A slight variation on hitstun decay is teching present in anime fighters like classic Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, and Under Night. Essentially, while you're being combo'd in the air, you can't do an invincible recovery (tech) because you're being hit, and hits fill up an invisible (or visible in Under Night's case) timer that is constantly counting down. When the timer hits 0, you can tech; every hit adds "un-tech time" to this timer, but the amount of un-tech time diminishes with each hit in the combo. GG+R is designed in such a way that combos rarely go on for more than 7 seconds at most due to this system
It's interesting to note that GGST actually does technically have this. However, it's purposefully 'dummied out' by having every move do 1000 untech
@@maxrewind99 It also techs automatically, taking the responsibility off of the defender. Funny enough, that's one "simplification" that I've seen longtime players celebrate lol
@@maxrewind99Completely false. GGST doesn't have any sort of "air tech" mechanic, and uses Gravity Scaling to prevent infinites (as shown in the video). What every move adds 1000 of is called RISC Loss, or effectively just damage scaling, all that does is reduce the damage that attack deal. Also GGST does its ground tech automatically because it was always pointless in the older GG games, there was never a reason not to tech and you couldn't hold the button to tech automatically like in BB or UNI so you'd have to mash buttons and potentially get hit for accidentally throwing out a jab.
We should also definitely mention Directional Influence in platform fighters, which essentially gives some agency to the defending player and allow him to reposition during hitstun to make combos harder (or easier). Of course, this stacks on top of the knockback scaling inherent to the platfighter formula
Came looking in the comments for someone mentioning DI. I'm an old school Street Fighter player, but I have to admit after playing Melee for years, DI feels just so good and intuitive.
Soul Calibur did it before Smash.
@@GreenChillZone oh damn, you learn something new every day!
@@GreenChillZone Smash did it better imo.
@@0rnami It's a much more important mechanic in Smash, at least from Melee onwards.
I'm a fan of the simple gravity system that Strive has going on, there's no air fallout or air teching of any kind so it feels very intuitive, if they're airborne, tumbling, hitstun, etc, it works, and as soon as their grounded they can block.
Damn this is a great video man. Super smooth transitions and stuff, it was awesome.
Another thing to note about hitstun scaling is that it makes longer, more optimized combos harder to execute the further along in the combo you are. What starts off as an easy 3f link early in the combo becomes a difficult 1f link later on. I like how to makes optimized combos more demanding for the player and more impressive to see live
Great vid! I loved how you did the breakdown from a historical lens, chronogically breaking down the various methods used to prevent infinites.
I think TFH's blend of Undizzy but with gravity scaling is REALLY good, especially considering that as the gravity scaling increases, each hit gives the person on offense less and less meter and the person getting comboed more and more meter, introducing a risk/reward to keeping your combo going way after JD has kicked in.
one of your best videos yet man! it felt especially fluid and well paced, good stuff
MvC devs: wait, are we supposed to avoid them?
I know that the Touhou fighters implement a mechanic called Limit. Basically how it works, ever attack in the game on top of dealing damage also adds to a combos limit score and once that score hits 100, the victim enters an invincible state where they cannot be hit anymore until they recover.
I would like to see an expanded version of undizzy. Like undizzy bar would give you moved you could do while being comboed, like full undizzy would give you the hard to bait burst, but like half would give you something like an air dodge that would be easier to bait.
Persona 4 Arena is also a notable example because the SMP queue only holds I think 10 moves iirc, so a character like Naoto can do a bunch of her moves since Blight, Traps, Aim, etc as well as each version fill up the queue and then you go into B fangs which has an untechable ground bounce allowing you to cancel the aim follow-up and go into another B fangs and so on until they die
And of course AU 1.0 had the infamous Shotgun loops with Shadow Naoto, which uhh, you didn't even need to go infinite you just did 13 Fates because lul shotgun and then set up Naoto's disgusting oki game and said Heads I Win Tails You Lose
I love how YOMI Hustle prevents infinites. You've got Burst, sure. But what's really unique is the way hitstun scaling works in that game: It's per move, and it regenerates over time. So if I use the same move repeatedly, eventually, they'll get out. But if I throw in a few moves in between, eventually, the hitstun will return to normal for the first move I used. This, combined with the scaling DI and knockback turns combos into puzzles that are totally freestyle and based on reading your opponent.
Touch of death combos are not only possible, you actually get an achievement for landing one with default settings- But even in single-player, where you're controlling both characters, landing a ToD is difficult because of all those factors
YOMI Hustle mentioned
@@r.henryjr.1533 It's a great game! Needs more love
Ultra Fight Da! Kyanta 2 is notable in that the game has light gravity scaling but the main thing preventing infinites is the games absurdly high damage making most characters able to just ToD off of a stray hit anyway.
I honestly think Skull Girls and Strive did it the best, simply because they’re visually intuitive. Like you said, hitstun scaling is confusing for new players. Hell, I’ve been playing fighting games all my life and I didn’t even know about this.
I dislike Strive’s
Did you just call skullgirls' IPS intuitive? It takes like two pages just to explain how it works.
@@evilded2 Sure did. Still mean it. It’s easy to see something is stopping your combo from looping. Then it has a nice and detailed documentation to explain why. Badaboom. I learnededed.
@@TheCJRhodes Strive dislikes yours
Probably…
I am genuinely so confused by skullgirls.
He said he used medium kick in the first combo so now he can’t combo with it
So then he does light kick medium kick and it works? But he just said medium kick no longer works in combos bc he used it the first time?
I’ve never played the game but it didn’t make sense to me
12:10 Slight correction, bursts in SG are only punishable if they whiff. If the burst makes contact with the opponent at all (including hitting an assist), it will remain fully invulnerable through its recovery frames. Blocking or armoring an assist does leave you hella plus though so you can at least go for a mixup.
I haven't played SG since 2015, but if my memory serves well, blocked bursts were negative.
@@El_Chuchuca Minus but invuln, as I said they do get to go for a mixup.
Very educational! Your deep dives are so accessible while still being so fun! Great demonstrations.
It depends on the game of course, but for crazier games I think hitstun scaling is the way to go. Coming up with new combos for new situations is just fun and rewarding to do.
Dude OMF was my jam! Nice to see it mentioned, played it WAY too much since it was one of the few games we used to have back in the day :D
As a Guilty Gear player, I do really like their wall/wallsplat mechanic. If nothing else, it feels great to trigger and send people flying... it took a preventative measure and made it satisfying and cinematic. It's also extremely obvious and overt that, at some point, you *do* reset.
...but it's also not strictly a reset because you get a gauge bonus for doing it. You are back in neutral but you still have more than just a health advantage.
I was so happy to see one must fall mentioned, that game is my favorite fighting game of all time
Blazblue makes the hitstun of moves decrease the longer a combo goes, until the opponent can just tech out of it.
I love the mention of One Must Fall! It had a great combo system for its time.
waiting for mentioning Tohou: Hisoutensoku. it's an indie game. that game has scaling and limit (forgot the name). basically combo has diminished return on consecutive hits and also a limitation. once you reach 100% limit the opponent will be invulnerable and drop to ground having wake up option available. i think this system is good cause you can gauge how much attack you can landed before having back to neutral or setup again. there's a way to circumvent the limit in order to try infinite but that requires bringing some gimmicky spell card
small correction for blazblue (including BBTAG) and p4au hitstun scaling. It's not scaling per se, in the sense that each attack makes the next one have less hitstun. The thing that makes hitstun go lower and lower is COMBO TIME. It depends from game to game, but in bbcf the combo starts with full hitstun (obviously), after ~120 frames hitstun of all moves go down by 2frames, after another 180 (300 total) it goes down by 5 frames, after another 180 (480 total) it goes down by 10 frames and after another 180 (660 total) it goes down to 1 frame (meaning it can be teched immediately)
I am prepared for the obligatory SG section
Important note for skullgirls. BLOCKING burst still lets the bursting player block putting them in a 50/50 of strike/throw at best. Dodging a burst completely lets you guarantee a punish.
Thanx for the video. Love your content. It's nice to learn about such interesting features and mechanics.
In modern games, I suspect some of these are findable via machine learning. You could even use a bit of a GAN approach by having one character try to do as much damage as possible, while having the other character try to take as little damage as possible. The actual implementation would be more complex than that, but you get the idea.
Bbcf had the best inf prevention in my opinion. Where you can link any combos that have certain frame data but any move afterwards with slower frames eventually get blocked by hitstun. And im pretty sure its time based as well so faster and slower characters are evenly ballanced based on their overall dps and not their speed.
I can never get enough fighting game mechanic breakdowns, and jmcrofts has the best.
mad ups for OMF 2097. My first fighter and still a very near and dear to my heart game.
I like how in the original Killer Instinct people just found unbreakable combos and they could do those to avoid having to interact with combo breakers
Though i have not played the game, skull girls looks like it has a good system. I like how the combo system works
Try it out! It's my favorite, and in no small part due to the combo system.
Banger my man had me curious the entire time :)
Amazing insight video of games I love to watch but never understood as a kid. Thank you!
As someone who got into fighting games because of Strive, I *love* the wall break mechanic.
4:54 Tekken string but it's a jump combo
Niche
Juggle Decay which I believe is exclusive to Them's Fightin Herds. It's a meter that when filled the character flops quickly to the ground like Strive
But it doesn't reset until you either A: tech after knockdown. B: take a counterhit.
You start looking for max JD combo routes, think about when your teching, and figure out ways to fish for tech resets instead of big combo every time.
The game lacks burst so it's a neat way to add the mind game into the system.
This is the reason why I love the classic Kof game, specially kof 98..
Great video btw very so much things you talk about here I knew but never understood how all these systems work
I remember being able to do Killer Instinct’s Cinder’s infinite, either from a regular combo, or off of a well-timed Ultra Combo drop!
demon slayer has a combo bar which is awesome, not only that it has variants guard break is red which deals more damage but ends faster the yellow which is the normal, and the blue one that happens after a parry lasts longer but deals less damage
it is the best system I've seen among all the games I've played and the most consistent, it's still possible to tod but its more difficult
Primal Rage had a "anti cheese system" in place, which simply made a special mine used twice in a combo miss, just like OMF2097 (you could know it happened because you got a cheese icon on screen)
Holy crap, I must’ve put 200 hours on One Must Fall 2097 back in the day. I didn’t know anyone else on the planet had even heard of it.
Your bro here, back to the days finding secrets in tourament mode was super enjoyable, who would think the tourament mode is deep as F
I remember back an infinite loop I found *way* back in MK3 Ultimate. It was for Rain; the purple ninja w/ lightning powers. Either his uppercut or roundhouse (I forget which) had a special property that it knocked you off one side of the screen, then you came flying in from the *opposite* side (from behind him) and landed right back where you were standing. So my loop consisted of launching the opponent in the air with a lightning calldown, then the uppercut/roundhouse to fling them round-the-world, and then I had to time the lightning *just right* so they'd be hit and launched again. Too early, and it wouldn't launch them, but too late and they had the space to escape, block, etc. But so long as I kept the rhythm going, it was a ToD.
I like Yomi Hustle's anti infinite as you not only have Burst, you also have DI to alter the direction that you get hit and unless there is something im missing, characters like Ninja you need to DI in the worst possible way to get ToD'd
you forgot about the mashing out in mvc2, your opponent can hit all there buttons like a mad man and jump out in certain supers like magneto tempest
Hitstun decay is my favourite, it enables you to segment a long combo into a few small loops and think of clever ways to finish it with connecting supers that ignore decay
To be more specific, in old KI there was another protection. You can't just do long combos or enemy just knocked down. But in SNES port you somehow can juggle if this limit activates.
Unless you buffered the ender! or did a fake linker! I loved how broken KI was. :)
I am personally a fan of Hitstun Decay used in Arcsys games like Blazblue where each hit reduces hitstun along with burst and damage scaling. Glad you mentioned it
I would like to see more fighting games do less hit stun scaling and more new takes on infinite prevention. Skull girls always stood out to me for that reason alone, even though I dont play seriously.
I wanna say MVC3 also has damage scaling combos. The longer a combo goes on, the less damage each attack does until eventually the true infinites are doing nothing but stalling the timer
I did some videos on IPS in Naruto Ultimate Ninja, these games are filled with infinites because you have a chakra bar for combo breakers, but still some attacks loop launches the opponent in an untechable state breaking the combo, or even converting into a true infinite if you have the right properties
I think the simplest solution is to provide some kind of "burst" that uses one bar of meter.
I had never heard of One Must Fall 2097 before this!
@9:20 😏, That combo went hard.💯
I like the KI system.
Damn one must fall 2097 looks dope
Great video!
the best "excessive combo" prevention is when its activated by the defending player and is not limited to a resource:
-Street Fighter Zero 2's Tech Flip lets you vertically flip or jump out of a juggle and regain partial air control of your character, its not perfect as some characters are worse in the air than others
-Dead or Alive's attack reversal that can be activated even if you're currently getting hit by a combo, its similar to Killer Instinct, where if you can predict high/low etc then you can reversal
-Street Fighter 3's Parry could be changed to be like the above two if it were usable during a combo, red parry is sort of like this but only for blockstun, not hitstun.
I fucking love combo breakers so much. Mechanics that take infinite prevention and turn them into a chance for mind games and outplays are so goated i stg.
I still blast the One Must Fall 2097 title screen music, it's so good
blazblue CFs probably one of the more fair stun decay ones ive come across because on how they structured the moves and expecting combos to go on long enough for some decay to occure part way through but still allow some segments of combos to work but wont if you manage to loop around again. the thing that actually lets some of the moves feel a lot better to use and understand that it was decay that caused the drop most of the time is the moves are normally really big and have good stun with them, like the ragnas 5B is known as the jesus kick because how its so fast and has a good hit box, buf it that didnt connect then you know it was a case you needed to end the combo eariler.
in X Men vs SF you can unlock the flying screen by doing a stand throw because developers forgot to remove it while you are combing. Air throw will not work out.
I definitely like the gravity scaling especially when it takes in basketball combos
I like the Granblue Fantasy Versus Combo Limit mechanic the most since the opponent becomes invulnerable to any more hits after a certain point. The game tells you exactly when the combo can no longer continue so you know it wasn't you messing up the timing or something.
There is also just a normal gravity and pushback scaling, more hits - faster fall, further fly, and in the corner you can get pushed. So eventually you just can't connect a hit.
JM flexing on us with his clean narration while casually doing infinites. I see you Crofts… I see you.
This video came at the perfect time. I'm working on my first fighting game at the moment (A side project. It has 6 characters and I'm hoping I can get it up on browser by next summer).
I love the crazy combos in UMVC3, Power Rangers BftG, DBFZ, and Jojo HFTF. I like the idea of players throwing paint at the wall and seeing what sticks, but I fear that infinites would make the combos too repetetive.
I really like Burst as the option for it to be bated is that bit of mind game that tickles the right part of my brain, really dislike the change to it to be full screen in strive.
Combo breakers in the 1st KI isn't guessing like the last KI. It's by using a characters designated special move during the start of a combo extender.
They can Create unbreakable shield that are building up while the combo is rising up to max combo limit and damage so the character would stop receiving any fatal damage
3rd strike has a prevention as well. There's a hidden juggle counter which is why oro cant keep his loops going or why Urien needs to get clever with his drops. And why Ibuki cant do her insane one button infinite anymore 😂
I hate youtube glitches
Anyways, yeah the majority of SF games have juggle points, i kind of hate it for just how unintuitive they are, good thing SF6 gives a lot to work with so you can more freely choose your ender for different reasons, and 3S akuma had an absurd amount of points on everything, even jab...
Budokai also works in a similar way to a lot of these, most reminiscent of a Combo Breaker though and OMF97. you can't do a string twice on an opponent or force them to get into a juggle. However, since air strings count separate from ground strings, you can do ground to air and back to ground with different strings, IF they're fast enough at least to work properly. (Infinite Ground Combos usually) but if the opponent has 3 bars or more in their ki gauge, they can vanish out for 3 bars or empty vanish as well. However, both techniques can be baited and anti-TC's by the offensive player if their cancels are precise enough/ if the opponent chooses a very poor timing to teleport out of the combo. It's pretty unique and really interesting to work that intrinsic RPS, especially because it directly ties to the fatigue system of the game.
Budokai doesn't have hitstun decay though, but it does have pretty high damage scaling to the extent that anything past 30 hits (save for special moves) only do 1-2 hits of damage
Mortal Kombat 4/Gold, JoJo Heritage for the Future, Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 3, and the 2005 Hokuto no Ken game all have very interesting systems relating to this topic with mixed results. The Hokuto no Ken game's attempt to prevent long busted combos is iconic due to it allowing for even more ridiculous combos where you "dribble" the opponent.
I like how infinites are dealt with in on of my fav FG skullgirls it's not perfect mind you but with a few tweaks i think it's golden
Nice video! Would love for someone to put together a guide on how to get in to X-Men vs Street Fighter.
Seems like UMvC could've stopped infinites with a small tweak to only exclude supers from the dizzy mechanic.
So cool, personally I set up timers in my game project to act as point to point gate ways to the combo. It's definitively not easy but if someone can pull it off in game I'd say they more than deserve the infinite.
I like how Smash does this with Directional Influence. Smash already makes infinites difficult since knockback scaling is a part of the game loop. But DI is a system that adds mindgames to combos by allowing the player getting comboed to slightly adjust the angle they get hit at. This allows players to try escaping, but because there's no damage scaling, they take the full damage if the player comboing them reads their DI.
Without even watching the video.
For the most part, it's a matter of how fast characters recover from attacking, hit stun, and how far a character is pushed back.
I miss playing Killer Instinct. Such an awesome fighting game.
I hate hitstun decay for exactly the reason you highlighted. It limits improvisation, because if you didn't lab EXACTLY THAT STARTER (of which there are nearly infinite permutations, depending on where the opponent was when you hit them), you're either likely to drop the combo, or (knowing that you're likely to drop the combo) you just quickly route into hard knockdown as fast as possible. I REALLY appreciate what Skullgirls and KI 2013 do, where everything is wholly consistent, you're limited by a plainly visible meter governed by easy math, and there's something that keeps the defender active in the middle of the combo. Strive and Mortal Kombat both do gravity decay, which I can live with much more easily than hitstun decay, but it's not my favorite. I probably wouldn't have such an axe to grind against hitstun decay if it wasn't so much more prevalent than other methods, and teching out of a combo with hitstun decay in most games is usually a non-decision, where you're just holding a button and waiting for the opponent to mess up rather than trying to see if they're tech trapping you.
I've been thinking about this could be fixed by only starting the timer after the first string, like how SG only begins tracking IPS/undizzy after stage 2, so that it remains consistent regardless of starter. Hire me fighting game devs!
@@missingno_fgc Hitstun decay tends to never kick in that fast anyway. I have yet to play a game that handled it better than +R, where teching carries risk, and you actually have to consider whether it's worth it to escape the combo.
I all but quit playing fighters a while ago. Soul Caliber was really the last fighter I played, though I did get the newer KI game. What did it for me was a lack of attention to preventing easy ring outs with characters like Talim or Taki as well as the clear pay to win mechanics introduced when they added Yoda the Ungrabable Bayblade. I did venture a bit to the dark side before I quit. I made a custom character with Siegfrieds style and buffed tf out of knocking making him do a 2 hit combo guaranteed to ring out if successful
That game skull girls looks so good! I’ve never seen it before
hit stun decay would be fine if games didn't constantly put exceptions in. lighting loops sends their regards
In regard to flying screen to in MVC2 - dhalsim has a way of triggering what would be flying screen, but it allows you to still relaunch and superjump, I dont know how tf its done but I've seen ppl like djb-13 back in the day do it a bunch