That is something I've heard explained many times over decades and no one made it make more sense than Paul in this video. This channel is a treasure trove of information that greatly help understand and navigate the ever changing world of audio. Thanks Paul!!
I watch your videos every day but this morning I actually got a true understanding as to what the history of bi-wiring is and why there is really no necessity for it at this point in audio history..
Bi and tri amping is still used in pro audio with digital crossovers. Feed the line level signal into the digital crossovers. Then out to 2 or 3 different amps to power very high wattage speakers. Allows the crossover to be actively adjusted and not have to pass massive current through a passive crossover
The complex internals of a three-way "passive" crossover system can present a very dynamic and reactive load to the amplifier and thus put the amp under more "stress" than it normally should see..especially at high power levels. Bi-AMPING alleviates this problem and thus presents a "tamer" load the amp. This in turn allows the amp to run cooler and more efficiently. And a "happy" amp is a good thing.. 😁
Hi Paul How have you been? Oded from Cicago Il 90CES. I thing you neglected as a benefit of BiWire is the benefit of not using Crossover of the speaker. I have been using Kimber 8tc blue /black for midrange and tweeter. Thick Monster cable fothe base.This combo to my ears sounds very nice.I am using P.S Audio STRATA it sounds very good. I'm trying to get better imaging still. Work in progress. THANK YOU.
Baerchenization -Just no getting around repeating the issue again and again and again, maybe in a slightly different way. Some of us are slower than others to get it the 1st few times. The good news is with YT videos you can skip the ones you don’t want to watch! Try it once or thrice - you’ll get the hang of it sooner or later
I'm not an expert. I have a pair of Snell bookshelf speakers with 1 tweeter and one cone. I decided to try bi-wiring. I got mid-level cables from "Blue Jean Cables." The change might not seem huge, but it was significant. I heard much clearer highs and the listening experience was more enjoyable. I don't know if bi-wiring would make as much difference with 3-way speakers, but it worked with my 30 y.o. Snells
@3:53 "There is no need, anymore, for either bi-wiring or bi-amping." Folks, up until the above statement, our host was providing helpful information. Then he goes and ruins it with the above statement. @3:57 "That's a vestige of the past, and we still keep doing it, because people want it." Yes, people want it, and for good reason, which our host chose to omit. Yes, there are amplifiers, today, that can power an entire full range speaker and sound fantastic. Bit if you bi-amp that same speaker, then it will sound even more fantastic. Why? No matter how great an amplifier is, it will be put under the most stress with bass frequencies. When an amp (any amp) no longer has to deal with bass frequencies (or deal with them far less), then that amp will deliver better sounding mids and highs. There are no exceptions. Any amp will deliver better sounding mids and highs when dealing with less bass. That is why Vandersteen's flagship, reference speakers are bi-amped. It is not an option. They have a built-in amp, dedicated for the bass. But according to our host (Paul), Richard Vandersteen is living in a vestige of the past. My above explanation was made with state-of-the-art amplifiers. But how about affordable amplifiers? Affordable amplifiers will not handle the full frequency range as nimbly as a state-of-the-art amplifier. Affordable amplifiers will more readily reveal their shortcomings when having to deal with heavy bass frequencies. Well, bi-amping with those affordable amplifiers will alleviate the stress of the amplifiers delivering the mids and highs. You will clearly hear the improvement. Folks, I am scratching my head, trying to figure out why our host goes off the rails, from time-to-time, with such nonsensical statements. Our host knows all of the above, which is what makes his statement such a head scratcher. My guess is that if our host were to design and sell a high-pass filter, making his Aspen line of speakers easy to properly bi-amp, then he would never have made his @3:53 statement. But since he does not have a way to properly bi-amp his Aspen line of speakers (without 3rd party gear), he poo-poos bi-amping as a vestige of the past.
Excellent! I still want to biwire. My question is on the practical side. It's something I can't get my head around. If you have two sets of double wires coming from each speaker, do you have to combine the two negatives and two positives on each speaker into two banana plugs for each speaker going into two posts on the amp for each speaker OR forget combining the four into two and just have four plugs going into Speaker A and B on the amp? I think that when I did the latter, I had all tweeter sound in one speaker and all treble in the other (which didn't seem right). Also, does it matter if you use the A+B speaker circuit for each speaker or keep everything plugged into either A or B for each separately? Any help appreciated!
Hello Paul, I was considering Bi Amping because I can't afford a true Class A amplifier for few thousand. I own a Schiit Rekkr Class A amp for my Desktop Speakers, Elac BS243.4, now I think that the small amplifier that can do only 2W Peak is struggling with the bass a little. So I thought that maybe If I get a second Schiit Rekkr and Bi Amp, the bass would become more defined.
True bi-amping where you bypass the speaker's internal crossovers and use a line level active crossover before the power amps can still reap major performance benefits.
@@flargosa It's the difference between passive and active bi-amping. With active bi-amping the amplifier's output is connected directly to the drivers without an intervening filter network, giving them better control.
The cables of "today" referenced in the video that handle highs and lows equally well, are those affordable? Or are you talking about those expensive ones that have to be held up off the ground with little plastic stands?
I am the proud owner of a pair of the FR 20 speakers. I was running really good AQ speaker wire. I then talked to Bob at iconoclast, and got their set up for biwiring. The improvement of the sound of the FR 20 was huge. Clear, crisper detail, and the background is absolutely black. I love the speakers, and they sound the best to me biwired.
Interesting you mentioned Iconoclast. Before I bought my cable from them I had a long email conversation with Galen Gareis at that company. He needs no further introduction. Just look on youtube when he explains how they thought their instruments where broken when they meassured his cables. It showed so good numbers they could not believe it. I live in Sweden but bought my cables from him. No hesitation at all regarding shipping cost:-)
Yet another contentious subject, in the old days bi wiring/ bi amping did make a difference as Paul suggests. The wire sounds do have their own particular tone (from want of a better term). Quite often using a mix of wires did benefit the smoothness of sound you could achieve. Recent times with more sophisticated amps and speakers this issue less of an issue. Having said that current speaker wires do have their own Particular tone, which varies by manufacturer and price. Again this is very subjective area, very hard to understand despite the capacitance/impedance measures.
ok, the question is whether bi-wiring with one and the same speaker cable makes sense, and the answer is: go to your dealer and ask for auditioning; also, the answer will likely depend on the combination of amp, cables and speakers. My experience was always positive for bi-wiring, ie returning to single wire was a clear step down, but it is limited to so-called affordable components. And I have not done the comparison 2x speaker cables for X€ vs 1x speaker cable for 2*X€ which would be the fair one, especially if X is approaching 1 (significant fraction of a) monthly salary.
I'd say bi-wire is beneficial when the wire is actually too thin for it's purpose. Ive had this with older floor stand speakers - they would sound perfectly fine under normal volume, once you crank it up it became different. Bi-wire solved a very tiny bit of that. If you have proper wire in the first place bi-wire is not even needed.
I have a bi-wire question. My amp has a A channel and B channel for speakers plus an A+B of course. If I run one set of cables A channel to mid/tweeter posts and the B channel to the low freq driver and then run A+B speaker...would I get any benefit...Ive never heard anyone answer this ever.
It's just a slightly different way to achieve the connection compared with connecting both pairs of wires into the one set of terminals. It's technically _true_ that it would slightly reduce the current passing through the contacts of the A/B selector switch in the amplifier, since one contact set now carries the LF and the second contact set are carrying the HF. But if this made any practical difference it would be *far* less than the already small (but still real) differences in the way using the two cables can slightly affect speaker operation. In other words, if there was any difference you could hear, it would almost certainly not be due to doing it with the A+B speaker facility. That would just be an easy way to connect it up.
Bi amplifying has tremendous benefits. Think of one amplifier out of two amplifiers both being identical stereo amplifiers. The first amplifier feeds the woofers the second amplifier feeds the tweeters. The tweeters or the mid-range and tweeters let's say need so little power that the amplifier that feeds them is likely to stay in class A if it's a Class A B amplifier or close to it in the lowest Distortion region. That would not be the case if that same amplifier had to also feed the woofers.
I passive bi amped my Infinity RS IIIa's a few years ago and never been happier. They burned up every amp I have had near them since the 1980's. Passive bi amping them really opened them up like never before. The bass hits harder and the top end is a whole new experience. It also gives the amp a chance of not catching fire being 2 channels feed one speaker now. Got the inspiration from the way the IRS V's are set up. I wouldn't bother bi-wiring anything but bi amping or passive bi amping is well worth it when it comes to these big Infinity power ho's that work better with as much headroom as they can get.
Ive heard this a million times just as many others have. I still bi-wire..with big chunky cables... because it looks cooler & cleaner to me. Costs more though
bi wiring: using 2 wires instead of one to one amplifier per speaker, bi-amping using 2 wires for each speaker that go to seperate amps that power LF and HF right?
True bi-amping or better yet tri-amping with line level crossovers is expensive and also quite difficult to EQ and set the balance between the divers. But when you get it right, the sonics are rewarding. For me it was an engineering exercise and the amps, DSP crossovers, and speakers were DIY. But after doing it, I don't think the benefits are worth the cost if you use off the shelf components.
The best bang for the buck for improving slightly flawed -- but otherwise very good -- loudspeakers is a sub-$200 multi-channel DSP box between source and amp with normal wiring. This approach allowed me to EQ my overly bright passive ambience/surround speakers to nearly match the timbre of my excellent active three-way L+R pair. The DSP box cost me $120 on sale at Parts Express -- much more sensible than the time and money it would take to modify the crossovers of four speakers and much less complicated than using the DSP unit as the active crossover in a bi-amping setup! I'm not sure I would use that sort of DSP for the L+R channels due the sampling rate , but for the ambience/surround function it's more than adequate.
Sandy Gross that started GoldenEar Speakers did not believe that it did make any difference to Bi Wire Speakers. So he sold the company and the new line of GoldenEar Speaker T66 can be Bi Wired.
I have a pair of speakers which have 4 binding posts on back. Oh my! The problem is, the thin metal platess that needs to be removed so I can biwire will simply not come off. Over the years it has either leached on to the back of the cabinet so badly that one cannot remove them; or maybe it was glued on with that powerful glue they show on TV that can lift over a ton. Maybe the former owner thought he would play a joke on me, and did it before sending me the speakers. What kind of glue would be electrically conductive like that though?. Would glue degrade the sound between a connection like that? Don't you hate when something like that happens? I also have an amplifier where you cant twist the screws off to open it up. They just won't budge. I think that piece was from the very same seller. I took it down to a repair shop. The guy used about 4 different screwdrivers on it, and he couldn't loosen them either. He tried with all the force he could muster. I never seen veins stick out on someone's head like that. He even handed the screwdrivers to his large wife Bertha, and she couldn't loosen them either. He tried himself again, thinking she might have loosened them a bit, but no; nothing! If he would have gotten it open; it would have cost me $150. They told me over the phone that on repairs they charge $150 just to open whatever they repair. He looked a lot like Alfred Hitchcock & so did his wife. Walt Disney wouldn't let Alfred Hitchcock into Disneyland. He was banned for life; just for being Alfred Hitchcock. The Wonderful World Of Disney, was supposed to be wholesome. TV was also supposed to be wholesome; believe it or not !!!. The guards were always on the lookout for him entering the park. You couldn't do that nowadays,. It would be considered discrimination and there would be a lawsuit. A man and the same man's work are considered two different things. Have I digressed again? This happens often with me. But anyway, I won't be able to do any internal mods on that amplifier; I guess it's top is stuck on there forever,. Thoughts of biwiring the speaker are off forever most likely too. I hate it when that happens. Thank you for readibg my post. You've tried the rest; now try the best. I still can't figure out where I have seen that phrase before. Was it on the packaging of the cable risers I bought at the pizza shop, whose packaging I threw out?
I recommend everyone to at least remove metal plates between speaker binding posts. And try bi wire speaker cables. The difference is huge. Removing the mass and bad materials from signal patch. Sometimes the plates introduce resistance.
Not much would have summed it all up perfectly. It did get me thinking. Bi-wiring is a waste of cable. It all presents the same load on the amplifier. Use a proper gauge single run and call it a day. The amplifier output isn’t magically discerning the highs from the lows and sending it down the respective cable nor is the back emf from the woofer going to present problems to the tweeter. A well designed crossover and proper gauge cable will prevent back emf from the woofer interfering with the highs. If this was truly an issue designers would build all high end speakers to be bi-amped. And if you are trying to chase that imperceptible gain bi-amping is the proper way to accomplish it. The only way I see this have any effect is running really lousy gear. And if that’s the case what’s the point.
With one small exception, amplifier loading isn't the issue for bi-wiring. Increasing parasitic capacitance (doubling if using the same cable) is the exception, and is known to affect behavior of a few amplifiers. But otherwise, the loading on the amplifier is of no consequence, since the _speaker_ is what can potentially be affected by bi-wiring. The amplifier has nothing to do with the distribution of different frequency signals down cables, that's done by the relevant sections of the crossover network, otherwise crossovers wouldn't work. The different currents at different frequencies are indeed travelling on their respective cables - 100W going to the woofer can't pass along the HF cable then dodge the tweeter when it gets there and jump across the gap to the woofer. Everything that reaches each of the drivers has to travel on the cable that is connected to it. But the amplifier knows nothing of that. If you haven't seen or done a thorough equivalent circuit analysis of the difference between the single-wired and bi-wired configuration, you may not have recognized where the differences lie. They are small, but they are there, in the genuine electrical engineering sense. It's true that lower specified gear is more likely to show an effect, but that doesn't necessarily mean lousy - for example even the best valve/tube amps will have modest damping factor, and the effect of damping is one aspect that bi-wiring has potential to improve slightly due to the difference in current paths.
@@PlatypusPerspective I appreciate your comment. I will play around with this concept and run some tests of my own to gain some real world insight. I do have a question about parasitic capacitance. How would this be improved through bi-wiring vs simply inputing through a single input and then the crossover splitting the signals? In my brain it seems biwiring simply doubles the amount of copper which may have a minimal effect on impedance but I don’t see how this has any effect on the load each individual driver pulls from the amplifier. It seems to me all bi wiring does is change the point at which the signal is placed into the crossover circuit. Just doesn’t make sense to me. Seems to me if a listener was truly wanting a premium listening experience they would put there money in a “bi-amped” configuration. One thought I had on why biwiring may sound better to some is perhaps the jumpers that manufactures use on the terminals adds a bit of resistance and impedes on the input signal? Once removed and then biwired a slight change in impedance might cause a perceived change in sound quality? This is a test I may look into. How resistive are those jumpers? I would say probably null. I will bi-wire a set of speakers and do a simple listening test. You can do crazy math and run complicated tests and I’m sure there are anomalies running bi-wire vs. single run but are they truly audible.
@@JasonZaderaka I appreciate your fair-minded approach. High capacitance of the cable is a potential problem and isn't improved by bi-wiring, it typically becomes worse. It's important to make a distinction between there being a difference when bi-wiring, and that difference being an improvement. It could be but it doesn't have to be. When I'm motivated to make a comment on the topic of bi-wiring, it's often in response to a frequently repeated meme suggesting there can't be any improvement, because there can't be any difference, since it's "electrically identical". The two configurations actually aren't electrically identical, and the increase of parasitic capacitance is one indicator of this. But it's something that doesn't adversely affect most well-designed amplifiers. Amplifiers traditionally favored by audiophiles have however not necessarily been well designed in this regard. You've also identified one other inevitable difference, the elimination of whatever connecting links are currently in place between the sets of speaker terminals. Some say they are suspect in terms of sound performance, and this also counts against the "bi-wiring can't do anything" brigade. It would be difficult to simultaneously hold that using something different than the links helps, but if that something different is bi-wiring, then it doesn't help... The relationship to the crossover sections is a bit messy to try to describe in words, without being able to draw diagrams. I've thought about trying to put together a video to explain it, but my video creation and presentation skills aren't great, as the sole video on my channel will attest! But you're not wrong in saying what is changed is the application of the signal to the crossover, and that's where probably the highest chance of a difference occurs. After all, the relationship between components and signals in a circuit is what determines how the circuit works, and changing those relationships is how you adjust the behavior of circuitry. I can try to draw a picture by description if you like. For my own listening, I have as you also say put my modest money into a bi-amped configuration, in that I use Event powered studio monitors, which means dedicated internal bi-amping with precise electronic crossover ahead of the power amps.
@@PlatypusPerspective Really great honest discussion without personal opinion. Thanks. I had never even heard of someone bi-wiring until I came across this post. I come from the world of Pro Audio and been at it over 20 years so bi-wiring is simply something I never would have even considered. I’ve lately been getting into more consumer based audio and speaker design so I’ve been seeing a lot of different approaches to what is considered to be “good audio”. I feel like in the consumer market place there is a whole more experimentation and variables in design that isn’t always favorable or acceptable in a pro audio environment where reliability, convenience and spl tend to be the most dominate attributes in design. I enjoy some of the ways audiophile’s approach things which a lot of times isn’t acceptable in live sound as the time constraints involved in a build and setup don’t always allow for perfection. Very cool. Thanks for your insight.
@@JasonZaderaka I'm glad to know you have a background in sound. I'm a recently retired electronics technician, and have always designed, built and maintained audio gear, including musical instrument and PA gear (I play keys). For the last 12 years or so I live mixed and maintained/upgraded the sound system for a small church auditorium. I hadn't been sure how technical to make what I was saying.
The increase in quality via bi amping should require no explanation, but bi wiring always seemed like absolute bollocks to me. You arent presenting a different load on the amp, at best you are increasing the amount of current by adding more wire, which should not make a difference if you already had good cables to begin with. But according to some, this might increase the amount of capacitance, thereby degrading sound quality (another load of audiophile BS)
Seems to me bi-wiring is just adding more resistance to the circuit. Bi amping makes sense to me for a couple reasons, but probably not necessary in most systems unless you have active cross over.
Bi-wiring using the same cable gauge results in the same resistance (but carrying less power) on each leg so no effective resistance is being added, unless you used thinner cables for some reason. A more likely approach for simple bi-wiring would be to retain existing cables for the lesser power handling needed for the divided treble, and upgrade the LF cable which is still carrying most of the power, but still not as much as it was prior to bi-wiring. Doing this is providing less series resistance for the bass end without having to pay more for an even heavier cable and waste the one you've already got. Bi-amping is a whole different scenario, but getting a second amplifier is a bit more adventurous than getting a second piece of wire.
@@PlatypusPerspective 👍but getting the other amp and bi-wiring may actually improve the system audibly, while I have my doubts on the benifits of bi- wiring other than to your wallet.
@@ericnortan9012 Bi-wiring is hit & miss, more likely to have some audible effect when amplifiers have lower damping factor and cable resistance is higher - i.e. less likely with good modern equipment - or maybe in a rare case like if an excellent speaker design is deliberately optimized in a bi-wire configuration.
@@PlatypusPerspective 👍right on. I like the idea of bi or tri amping with active crossovers, but that can get pricey real quick with quality equipment.
Paul is totally confusing and conflating biwiring and biamping. And his video is going to confuse more than enlighten people. Biamping and using line level crossover can help the separate amps control their assigned drivers better. But Biwiring with one amp into the low and high section of a speakers crossovers will have very minimal impact positive or negative on the speakers sound quality.
Speaker cables are exactly the same today compared to 50 years ago. Speaker cables do not handle high and low frequencies differently, and have never done so. The Laws of Physics have not changed.
of course a speaker cable is a network of complex resistance and the dielectric constant is not really a constant, and the whole thing is susceptible to mechanical vibrations (speaker vibrates, floor does) and EMI/EMR was practically inexistent 50yrs back. Physics has not changed much in this regard since Maxwell, but the way to see, measure and describe a cable has changed massively over years.
That is like saying the cars of today is no different than the cars of 50 years ago. They are both made of metal and plastic. The laws of physics have not changed. It's more like same basic materials, same laws of physics, but more advance engineering.
@@gioponti6359 --- None of those considerations apply to the relatively low frequencies and very low impedances involved in driving a loudspeaker. The "audiophile cable" industry was essentially a scam from the getgo and remains a scam today.
That is something I've heard explained many times over decades and no one made it make more sense than Paul in this video. This channel is a treasure trove of information that greatly help understand and navigate the ever changing world of audio. Thanks Paul!!
I watch your videos every day but this morning I actually got a true understanding as to what the history of bi-wiring is and why there is really no necessity for it at this point in audio history..
Your honesty never ceases to amaze, Paul. Thanks!
Bi and tri amping is still used in pro audio with digital crossovers. Feed the line level signal into the digital crossovers. Then out to 2 or 3 different amps to power very high wattage speakers.
Allows the crossover to be actively adjusted and not have to pass massive current through a passive crossover
The complex internals of a three-way "passive" crossover system can present a very dynamic and reactive load to the amplifier
and thus put the amp under more "stress" than it normally should see..especially at high power levels.
Bi-AMPING alleviates this problem and thus presents a "tamer" load the amp.
This in turn allows the amp to run cooler and more efficiently.
And a "happy" amp is a good thing.. 😁
Paul explains bi-wiring for the 137th time...
I lost count years ago thanks for the reminder
Its like visiting my grandpa. He always tells me the Same 3 Storys over and over again. Still love to See him.
Hi Paul
How have you been? Oded from Cicago Il 90CES.
I thing you neglected as a benefit of BiWire is the benefit of not using Crossover of the speaker. I have been using Kimber 8tc blue /black for midrange and tweeter. Thick Monster cable fothe base.This combo to my ears sounds very nice.I am using P.S Audio STRATA it sounds very good. I'm trying to get better imaging still. Work in progress. THANK YOU.
34 years is almost half a lifetime ago. Some people his age can remember back to their first whoopee and that's about it.
Baerchenization -Just no getting around repeating the issue again and again and again, maybe in a slightly different way. Some of us are slower than others to get it the 1st few times.
The good news is with YT videos you can skip the ones you don’t want to watch!
Try it once or thrice - you’ll get the hang of it sooner or later
You burst my bubble! I had the Phase Linear 400 amp/4000 pre-amp & thought they sounded great!
I'm not an expert. I have a pair of Snell bookshelf speakers with 1 tweeter and one cone. I decided to try bi-wiring. I got mid-level cables from "Blue Jean Cables." The change might not seem huge, but it was significant. I heard much clearer highs and the listening experience was more enjoyable. I don't know if bi-wiring would make as much difference with 3-way speakers, but it worked with my 30 y.o. Snells
Hi Paul, never bi wired a speaker system and have always had great results.
once I could bi-wire and heard the difference I never went back.
@3:53 "There is no need, anymore, for either bi-wiring or bi-amping."
Folks, up until the above statement, our host was providing helpful information. Then he goes and ruins it with the above statement.
@3:57 "That's a vestige of the past, and we still keep doing it, because people want it."
Yes, people want it, and for good reason, which our host chose to omit.
Yes, there are amplifiers, today, that can power an entire full range speaker and sound fantastic.
Bit if you bi-amp that same speaker, then it will sound even more fantastic. Why?
No matter how great an amplifier is, it will be put under the most stress with bass frequencies. When an amp (any amp) no longer has to deal with bass frequencies (or deal with them far less), then that amp will deliver better sounding mids and highs. There are no exceptions. Any amp will deliver better sounding mids and highs when dealing with less bass.
That is why Vandersteen's flagship, reference speakers are bi-amped. It is not an option. They have a built-in amp, dedicated for the bass. But according to our host (Paul), Richard Vandersteen is living in a vestige of the past.
My above explanation was made with state-of-the-art amplifiers. But how about affordable amplifiers?
Affordable amplifiers will not handle the full frequency range as nimbly as a state-of-the-art amplifier. Affordable amplifiers will more readily reveal their shortcomings when having to deal with heavy bass frequencies.
Well, bi-amping with those affordable amplifiers will alleviate the stress of the amplifiers delivering the mids and highs. You will clearly hear the improvement.
Folks, I am scratching my head, trying to figure out why our host goes off the rails, from time-to-time, with such nonsensical statements.
Our host knows all of the above, which is what makes his statement such a head scratcher.
My guess is that if our host were to design and sell a high-pass filter, making his Aspen line of speakers easy to properly bi-amp, then he would never have made his @3:53 statement.
But since he does not have a way to properly bi-amp his Aspen line of speakers (without 3rd party gear), he poo-poos bi-amping as a vestige of the past.
tx for putting this right.
Why PS-Audio does NOT allow user bi-amping on the "FR" series speakers is "baffling" (pun intended...)
Thanks for the succinct min-history lesson. Well done.
Fully agree on this one.
Excellent! I still want to biwire. My question is on the practical side. It's something I can't get my head around. If you have two sets of double wires coming from each speaker, do you have to combine the two negatives and two positives on each speaker into two banana plugs for each speaker going into two posts on the amp for each speaker OR forget combining the four into two and just have four plugs going into Speaker A and B on the amp? I think that when I did the latter, I had all tweeter sound in one speaker and all treble in the other (which didn't seem right). Also, does it matter if you use the A+B speaker circuit for each speaker or keep everything plugged into either A or B for each separately? Any help appreciated!
Hello Paul, I was considering Bi Amping because I can't afford a true Class A amplifier for few thousand.
I own a Schiit Rekkr Class A amp for my Desktop Speakers, Elac BS243.4, now I think that the small amplifier that can do only 2W Peak is struggling with the bass a little.
So I thought that maybe If I get a second Schiit Rekkr and Bi Amp, the bass would become more defined.
True bi-amping where you bypass the speaker's internal crossovers and use a line level active crossover before the power amps can still reap major performance benefits.
As opposed to false bi-amping. The stuff we do with modern equipment today.
bi-amping just means two amps, doesn't mean you have to replace passive crossovers with active crossovers.
@@flargosa It's the difference between passive and active bi-amping. With active bi-amping the amplifier's output is connected directly to the drivers without an intervening filter network, giving them better control.
@@dtsdigitalden5023 Passive vs active bi-amping.
@@gotham61 Yes, but that is not the "true" definition of bi-amping as you claim.
The cables of "today" referenced in the video that handle highs and lows equally well, are those affordable? Or are you talking about those expensive ones that have to be held up off the ground with little plastic stands?
Lol...right? Thousands of dollars for speaker cables?? Riiiiiiiiight....
I am the proud owner of a pair of the FR 20 speakers. I was running really good AQ speaker wire. I then talked to Bob at iconoclast, and got their set up for biwiring. The improvement of the sound of the FR 20 was huge. Clear, crisper detail, and the background is absolutely black. I love the speakers, and they sound the best to me biwired.
Interesting you mentioned Iconoclast. Before I bought my cable from them I had a long email conversation with Galen Gareis at that company. He needs no further introduction. Just look on youtube when he explains how they thought their instruments where broken when they meassured his cables. It showed so good numbers they could not believe it. I live in Sweden but bought my cables from him. No hesitation at all regarding shipping cost:-)
Those must be great sounding speakers, wish it wasn't $20k.
PS Audio takes trade-ins. I got rid of almost all of my used equipment that I would never use again. Brought it down to 13 K.
Yet another contentious subject, in the old days bi wiring/ bi amping did make a difference as Paul suggests. The wire sounds do have their own particular tone (from want of a better term). Quite often using a mix of wires did benefit the smoothness of sound you could achieve. Recent times with more sophisticated amps and speakers this issue less of an issue. Having said that current speaker wires do have their own Particular tone, which varies by manufacturer and price. Again this is very subjective area, very hard to understand despite the capacitance/impedance measures.
ok, the question is whether bi-wiring with one and the same speaker cable makes sense, and the answer is: go to your dealer and ask for auditioning; also, the answer will likely depend on the combination of amp, cables and speakers. My experience was always positive for bi-wiring, ie returning to single wire was a clear step down, but it is limited to so-called affordable components. And I have not done the comparison 2x speaker cables for X€ vs 1x speaker cable for 2*X€ which would be the fair one, especially if X is approaching 1 (significant fraction of a) monthly salary.
My entire rig is wired by Galen. Love his stuff.
I'd say bi-wire is beneficial when the wire is actually too thin for it's purpose. Ive had this with older floor stand speakers - they would sound perfectly fine under normal volume, once you crank it up it became different. Bi-wire solved a very tiny bit of that. If you have proper wire in the first place bi-wire is not even needed.
I have a bi-wire question. My amp has a A channel and B channel for speakers plus an A+B of course. If I run one set of cables A channel to mid/tweeter posts and the B channel to the low freq driver and then run A+B speaker...would I get any benefit...Ive never heard anyone answer this ever.
It's just a slightly different way to achieve the connection compared with connecting both pairs of wires into the one set of terminals. It's technically _true_ that it would slightly reduce the current passing through the contacts of the A/B selector switch in the amplifier, since one contact set now carries the LF and the second contact set are carrying the HF. But if this made any practical difference it would be *far* less than the already small (but still real) differences in the way using the two cables can slightly affect speaker operation. In other words, if there was any difference you could hear, it would almost certainly not be due to doing it with the A+B speaker facility. That would just be an easy way to connect it up.
Bi amplifying has tremendous benefits. Think of one amplifier out of two amplifiers both being identical stereo amplifiers. The first amplifier feeds the woofers the second amplifier feeds the tweeters. The tweeters or the mid-range and tweeters let's say need so little power that the amplifier that feeds them is likely to stay in class A if it's a Class A B amplifier or close to it in the lowest Distortion region. That would not be the case if that same amplifier had to also feed the woofers.
I passive bi amped my Infinity RS IIIa's a few years ago and never been happier. They burned up every amp I have had near them since the 1980's. Passive bi amping them really opened them up like never before. The bass hits harder and the top end is a whole new experience. It also gives the amp a chance of not catching fire being 2 channels feed one speaker now. Got the inspiration from the way the IRS V's are set up. I wouldn't bother bi-wiring anything but bi amping or passive bi amping is well worth it when it comes to these big Infinity power ho's that work better with as much headroom as they can get.
Ive heard this a million times just as many others have. I still bi-wire..with big chunky cables... because it looks cooler & cleaner to me. Costs more though
bi wiring: using 2 wires instead of one to one amplifier per speaker, bi-amping using 2 wires for each speaker that go to seperate amps that power LF and HF right?
True bi-amping or better yet tri-amping with line level crossovers is expensive and also quite difficult to EQ and set the balance between the divers. But when you get it right, the sonics are rewarding. For me it was an engineering exercise and the amps, DSP crossovers, and speakers were DIY. But after doing it, I don't think the benefits are worth the cost if you use off the shelf components.
The best bang for the buck for improving slightly flawed -- but otherwise very good -- loudspeakers is a sub-$200 multi-channel DSP box between source and amp with normal wiring. This approach allowed me to EQ my overly bright passive ambience/surround speakers to nearly match the timbre of my excellent active three-way L+R pair. The DSP box cost me $120 on sale at Parts Express -- much more sensible than the time and money it would take to modify the crossovers of four speakers and much less complicated than using the DSP unit as the active crossover in a bi-amping setup! I'm not sure I would use that sort of DSP for the L+R channels due the sampling rate , but for the ambience/surround function it's more than adequate.
Sandy Gross that started GoldenEar Speakers did not believe that it did make any difference to Bi Wire Speakers. So he sold the company and the new line of GoldenEar Speaker T66 can be Bi Wired.
I went full Bi and approve this message.
To be honest it was only 12 months ago i figured out why there was to outlet's on my tower speakers, i just enored them and didn't know any better
I have a pair of speakers which have 4 binding posts on back. Oh my! The problem is, the thin metal platess that needs to be removed so I can biwire will simply not come off. Over the years it has either leached on to the back of the cabinet so badly that one cannot remove them; or maybe it was glued on with that powerful glue they show on TV that can lift over a ton. Maybe the former owner thought he would play a joke on me, and did it before sending me the speakers. What kind of glue would be electrically conductive like that though?. Would glue degrade the sound between a connection like that? Don't you hate when something like that happens? I also have an amplifier where you cant twist the screws off to open it up. They just won't budge. I think that piece was from the very same seller. I took it down to a repair shop. The guy used about 4 different screwdrivers on it, and he couldn't loosen them either. He tried with all the force he could muster. I never seen veins stick out on someone's head like that. He even handed the screwdrivers to his large wife Bertha, and she couldn't loosen them either. He tried himself again, thinking she might have loosened them a bit, but no; nothing! If he would have gotten it open; it would have cost me $150. They told me over the phone that on repairs they charge $150 just to open whatever they repair. He looked a lot like Alfred Hitchcock & so did his wife. Walt Disney wouldn't let Alfred Hitchcock into Disneyland. He was banned for life; just for being Alfred Hitchcock. The Wonderful World Of Disney, was supposed to be wholesome. TV was also supposed to be wholesome; believe it or not !!!. The guards were always on the lookout for him entering the park. You couldn't do that nowadays,. It would be considered discrimination and there would be a lawsuit. A man and the same man's work are considered two different things. Have I digressed again? This happens often with me. But anyway, I won't be able to do any internal mods on that amplifier; I guess it's top is stuck on there forever,. Thoughts of biwiring the speaker are off forever most likely too. I hate it when that happens.
Thank you for readibg my post. You've tried the rest; now try the best. I still can't figure out where I have seen that phrase before. Was it on the packaging of the cable risers I bought at the pizza shop, whose packaging I threw out?
That took all the air outta my sails
I recommend everyone to at least remove metal plates between speaker binding posts. And try bi wire speaker cables. The difference is huge. Removing the mass and bad materials from signal patch. Sometimes the plates introduce resistance.
What's your speaker model?
No, they don't unless they are damaged or low quality. Then they can be replaced with cables made for that purpose.
@@HasSF Tannoy XT6F
Just replace the cheap, steel jumper with something better, it is easy and you already have some speaker wire that you can use.
Adding more wire increases resistance too. VD is real😮
This is a older video, I swear I seen this one already
carver 400 biwired with my Marantz sounded great..............then smoke.
Not much would have summed it all up perfectly. It did get me thinking. Bi-wiring is a waste of cable. It all presents the same load on the amplifier. Use a proper gauge single run and call it a day. The amplifier output isn’t magically discerning the highs from the lows and sending it down the respective cable nor is the back emf from the woofer going to present problems to the tweeter. A well designed crossover and proper gauge cable will prevent back emf from the woofer interfering with the highs. If this was truly an issue designers would build all high end speakers to be bi-amped. And if you are trying to chase that imperceptible gain bi-amping is the proper way to accomplish it. The only way I see this have any effect is running really lousy gear. And if that’s the case what’s the point.
With one small exception, amplifier loading isn't the issue for bi-wiring. Increasing parasitic capacitance (doubling if using the same cable) is the exception, and is known to affect behavior of a few amplifiers. But otherwise, the loading on the amplifier is of no consequence, since the _speaker_ is what can potentially be affected by bi-wiring. The amplifier has nothing to do with the distribution of different frequency signals down cables, that's done by the relevant sections of the crossover network, otherwise crossovers wouldn't work. The different currents at different frequencies are indeed travelling on their respective cables - 100W going to the woofer can't pass along the HF cable then dodge the tweeter when it gets there and jump across the gap to the woofer. Everything that reaches each of the drivers has to travel on the cable that is connected to it. But the amplifier knows nothing of that.
If you haven't seen or done a thorough equivalent circuit analysis of the difference between the single-wired and bi-wired configuration, you may not have recognized where the differences lie. They are small, but they are there, in the genuine electrical engineering sense. It's true that lower specified gear is more likely to show an effect, but that doesn't necessarily mean lousy - for example even the best valve/tube amps will have modest damping factor, and the effect of damping is one aspect that bi-wiring has potential to improve slightly due to the difference in current paths.
@@PlatypusPerspective I appreciate your comment. I will play around with this concept and run some tests of my own to gain some real world insight. I do have a question about parasitic capacitance. How would this be improved through bi-wiring vs simply inputing through a single input and then the crossover splitting the signals?
In my brain it seems biwiring simply doubles the amount of copper which may have a minimal effect on impedance but I don’t see how this has any effect on the load each individual driver pulls from the amplifier. It seems to me all bi wiring does is change the point at which the signal is placed into the crossover circuit. Just doesn’t make sense to me. Seems to me if a listener was truly wanting a premium listening experience they would put there money in a “bi-amped” configuration. One thought I had on why biwiring may sound better to some is perhaps the jumpers that manufactures use on the terminals adds a bit of resistance and impedes on the input signal? Once removed and then biwired a slight change in impedance might cause a perceived change in sound quality? This is a test I may look into. How resistive are those jumpers? I would say probably null. I will bi-wire a set of speakers and do a simple listening test. You can do crazy math and run complicated tests and I’m sure there are anomalies running bi-wire vs. single run but are they truly audible.
@@JasonZaderaka I appreciate your fair-minded approach.
High capacitance of the cable is a potential problem and isn't improved by bi-wiring, it typically becomes worse. It's important to make a distinction between there being a difference when bi-wiring, and that difference being an improvement. It could be but it doesn't have to be.
When I'm motivated to make a comment on the topic of bi-wiring, it's often in response to a frequently repeated meme suggesting there can't be any improvement, because there can't be any difference, since it's "electrically identical". The two configurations actually aren't electrically identical, and the increase of parasitic capacitance is one indicator of this. But it's something that doesn't adversely affect most well-designed amplifiers. Amplifiers traditionally favored by audiophiles have however not necessarily been well designed in this regard.
You've also identified one other inevitable difference, the elimination of whatever connecting links are currently in place between the sets of speaker terminals. Some say they are suspect in terms of sound performance, and this also counts against the "bi-wiring can't do anything" brigade. It would be difficult to simultaneously hold that using something different than the links helps, but if that something different is bi-wiring, then it doesn't help...
The relationship to the crossover sections is a bit messy to try to describe in words, without being able to draw diagrams. I've thought about trying to put together a video to explain it, but my video creation and presentation skills aren't great, as the sole video on my channel will attest! But you're not wrong in saying what is changed is the application of the signal to the crossover, and that's where probably the highest chance of a difference occurs. After all, the relationship between components and signals in a circuit is what determines how the circuit works, and changing those relationships is how you adjust the behavior of circuitry. I can try to draw a picture by description if you like.
For my own listening, I have as you also say put my modest money into a bi-amped configuration, in that I use Event powered studio monitors, which means dedicated internal bi-amping with precise electronic crossover ahead of the power amps.
@@PlatypusPerspective Really great honest discussion without personal opinion. Thanks. I had never even heard of someone bi-wiring until I came across this post. I come from the world of Pro Audio and been at it over 20 years so bi-wiring is simply something I never would have even considered. I’ve lately been getting into more consumer based audio and speaker design so I’ve been seeing a lot of different approaches to what is considered to be “good audio”. I feel like in the consumer market place there is a whole more experimentation and variables in design that isn’t always favorable or acceptable in a pro audio environment where reliability, convenience and spl tend to be the most dominate attributes in design. I enjoy some of the ways audiophile’s approach things which a lot of times isn’t acceptable in live sound as the time constraints involved in a build and setup don’t always allow for perfection. Very cool. Thanks for your insight.
@@JasonZaderaka I'm glad to know you have a background in sound. I'm a recently retired electronics technician, and have always designed, built and maintained audio gear, including musical instrument and PA gear (I play keys). For the last 12 years or so I live mixed and maintained/upgraded the sound system for a small church auditorium. I hadn't been sure how technical to make what I was saying.
Do wires know if they’re bi?
If you’re bi-sexual, bi-wiring is an option.
The increase in quality via bi amping should require no explanation, but bi wiring always seemed like absolute bollocks to me. You arent presenting a different load on the amp, at best you are increasing the amount of current by adding more wire, which should not make a difference if you already had good cables to begin with. But according to some, this might increase the amount of capacitance, thereby degrading sound quality (another load of audiophile BS)
I found female vocals (say in classical music) needs a lot of amplifier headroom at the vocal peaks.
I biwire speakers To eliminate the brass jumpers, To me without these jumpers it sounds Better
Seems to me bi-wiring is just adding more resistance to the circuit. Bi amping makes sense to me for a couple reasons, but probably not necessary in most systems unless you have active cross over.
Bi-wiring using the same cable gauge results in the same resistance (but carrying less power) on each leg so no effective resistance is being added, unless you used thinner cables for some reason. A more likely approach for simple bi-wiring would be to retain existing cables for the lesser power handling needed for the divided treble, and upgrade the LF cable which is still carrying most of the power, but still not as much as it was prior to bi-wiring. Doing this is providing less series resistance for the bass end without having to pay more for an even heavier cable and waste the one you've already got.
Bi-amping is a whole different scenario, but getting a second amplifier is a bit more adventurous than getting a second piece of wire.
@@PlatypusPerspective 👍but getting the other amp and bi-wiring may actually improve the system audibly, while I have my doubts on the benifits of bi- wiring other than to your wallet.
@@ericnortan9012 Bi-wiring is hit & miss, more likely to have some audible effect when amplifiers have lower damping factor and cable resistance is higher - i.e. less likely with good modern equipment - or maybe in a rare case like if an excellent speaker design is deliberately optimized in a bi-wire configuration.
@@PlatypusPerspective 👍right on. I like the idea of bi or tri amping with active crossovers, but that can get pricey real quick with quality equipment.
Paul is totally confusing and conflating biwiring and biamping. And his video is going to confuse more than enlighten people. Biamping and using line level crossover can help the separate amps control their assigned drivers better. But Biwiring with one amp into the low and high section of a speakers crossovers will have very minimal impact positive or negative on the speakers sound quality.
Oh god
Phase Linear and SAE are terrible sounding amplifiers are terrible sounding Amplifiers? Really??
Speaker cables are exactly the same today compared to 50 years ago. Speaker cables do not handle high and low frequencies differently, and have never done so. The Laws of Physics have not changed.
of course a speaker cable is a network of complex resistance and the dielectric constant is not really a constant, and the whole thing is susceptible to mechanical vibrations (speaker vibrates, floor does) and EMI/EMR was practically inexistent 50yrs back. Physics has not changed much in this regard since Maxwell, but the way to see, measure and describe a cable has changed massively over years.
That is like saying the cars of today is no different than the cars of 50 years ago. They are both made of metal and plastic. The laws of physics have not changed. It's more like same basic materials, same laws of physics, but more advance engineering.
@@gioponti6359 --- None of those considerations apply to the relatively low frequencies and very low impedances involved in driving a loudspeaker. The "audiophile cable" industry was essentially a scam from the getgo and remains a scam today.
@@flargosa We are talking about a bit of wire that conducts electricity. Speaker cables do not have any filtering effect at audio frequencies.
@@editorjuno Agreed. Paul calls himself an engineer but frequently talks nonsense.