How to bi-amp using mismatched amplifiers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ม.ค. 2021
- If two different amplifiers are incorporated to bi-amplify loudspeakers, what's the best way to match their gains? If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.amazon.com/Audiophiles-Gu...
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we need a video on those synths and keyboards.
Love that Rhodes keyboard you’ve got there, Paul. I’ll never forget the first time I saw the insides of one of those, and the mechanism by which they work is so brilliant, with basically many, many tuning forks being struck by hammers causing different notes. Amazing engineering and design!
You’re amazing! Always incredible things around.
I'd love to see a video on the modular synthesizer!
Me too, i can’t tell what the synth is on top of the Rhodes but it looks like either a preset synth like an arp soloist or a string machine.
@@graxjpg Moog 953, just a controller keyboard
Waiting for Paul to bi amp that synth
I had this problem also. My only solution was to design and build a custom (op-amp) based distribution amp circuit. It took a bit of work. There are distribution amp schematics out there but I don't know of anyone who makes a discrete dist. (analog de-mux) circuit (ie one input -> 2 to 4 outputs, with volume for each one). You could also just connect a 10k pot to the "strongest" amp (via the pot wiper). Essentially just a passive attenuator.
I do horizontal, usually with multiple outputs from my preamp. Now that you mention it, I have only one poweramp without gain and just don't use it in multiple amping. Usually have a graphic EQ going to the LF amp and kill off the mid and high frequencies. I gave two 2 and 3 way low level crossovers. They work great too except I'm prone to fiddling with them too much. You can set the individual crossover frequencies, the rolloff (6, 12, 18 dB/octave and gain of the outputs (fiddle with frequency overlap too).
Anyway... that's too much unless the basic /simple setup has some issues.
The reason for biamping IMHO is to avoid the need for hi level cross over networks. Also, since the woofers might need more power to reach the same sound level that the tweeters or midrange might need, then biamping with amplifiers of different power levels (horizontal) could make sense. Vertical bi-amping would seem to ONLY work with IDENTICAL amps, and then drivers with the same power needs.
Also a HUGE reason for bi-amping is to use a amp better suited for highs and one better for bass.
And the drivers don't need the same power requirements for vertical bi-amping.. Mids and tweeters never require as much as a woofer in the same system anyway.
But you could also use different amps but that would make no sense in a vertical bi-amp setup.
I have found that bi-amplification is best used to access the advantages of a DSP crossover system. The digital processing can accommodate complex crossover designs that are difficult to achieve and maintain with high power handling components.
I cannot aggree more. I'm trying to do the same by bypassing my floorstander crossover and using a digital dsp after the source then 2 dac then 2 stereo amps. As Paul said, the problem is that the gain is not the same for diff amplifier, so what can be done, is ajust the dac gain so at a listening volume both gain are the same. It's a good patch. Or us ROON and set both dac a différend max volume and everything will be ok.
Agree. I ended up fixing the issue with a totally neutral active crossover (Sub10 model). It worked perfectly, the slope adjustments are well designed to handle any scenario.
@Tiberius Tchaikovsky the output of a dac is digital... your digital crossover have to be placed before the dac. You'll need 2 or 3 dac depending of your setup
@@michaelknight5607 A-ha moment. Thanks for saying this.
It's exelent using bi-amping for getting better highs from one amp and better lows from another.
DSP I don't really touch much.
Hello! I can't thank you enough for such a helpful answer!
Just buy power amp with gain control like parasound 2350 for example, Done
@@blejzerosamigos6115 thank you!
@@blejzerosamigos6115 May I know many of them for active bi amping :') ? I need a diagram lol.
With most amps being so good these days (including classD) I think you are better off biamping vertically to hellp with channel separation and using valves in the preamp stage if you want that sound for your too end.
That's the setup I use and having seperate amps for each channel improved imaging,speration etc.
One thing to look out for whendoing this (Unless it's both Class A/B) is that many speakers can have a shared minus / ground. So if you use a i.e a Class A/B on the top and a Class D or a bridged A/B amp on the bottom it can end badly as that would short circuit because a Class D and a bridged A/B amp will have 2x hot (plus) instead of hot and cold (plus and minus)
There are two important factors that Paul didn't mention. Many amps invert the polarity of the signal. If one of the amps inverts and the other doesn't, you'll get terrible results unless you also compensate in the speaker hookup.
You also need to pay attention to the combined load of the two amps, especially if you use some kind of attenuator on one of them as suggested. With some preamps, you won't get good results driving the resulting load impedance of the combination.
TBH, I would suggest sticking to using two identical amps, or failing that, two different power versions from the same basic amp design and manufacturer.
Thanks for taking my question, Paul. -"Rusty" 😂
Easy way to do this is to buy power amp like parasound 2350 for example with gain controls in the back and you are done.
Just use an active crossover.
Yes, that's the best way👍
Not necessarily trivial if the speakers have a passive crossover built in, especially if that built-in crossover is dealing with "behavior problems" from the woofer. I agree that it's the best way to do it, but it is not always feasible.
Horizontal bi amping clearly offers a variety of advantages on difficult speakers..... Using different kinds of amps, adjusting gain etc..
Hi, Paul... My experience tells that you can't assure same dynamics from two very different topologies/technologies even having the same gain... After a while you get a very good headache!! Cheers
Don't different instruments play in different ranges (for different amplifiers)? Sure, drums will have a different dynamics than guitars have. I think it's about proper range selection. 20-80, 80-250, 250-(3.5k)5k, (3.5k)5k-20k, etc. Then your problems will go away I think.
@@sc0or You will most likely find some track that have sound overlapping on both amp. Instrument have a lots of harmonic that can be heard far from the crossover point.
@@michaelknight5607 Hm.. Makes sense. I'm only at a beginning of a way you've already passed
The source will give the dynamics of the whole presentation and its chara teristics over the bandwith, don't confuse the power demanded for lower frecuencies with dynamics... which is more dy... a cymbal splash or a drum kick? If your amps don't behave identically (aside "tone") you end sick...
Bi amping wihen neither amp has a volume knob is too much work i think, but mixing tube and solid state amps is a great idea, best of both worlds.
Back in the day we did that all the time with PA systems. That was kind of the first step of eq.
The gain of the Amplifier needs to be known-I tried this with a 29db amp & a 27 db amp (that means that the 29 db amp will be 2 db louder than the 27 db amp with the same preamp signal) The ear can hear a 1 db difference. I would not put a attenuator (potentiometer) in front of the amp. That spoils the nice low output impedance of the preamp by inserting a parallel and series impedance. It's the same as having a passive preamp, and the main issue with those, is that the increased impedance interacts with the capacitive and inductive reactance of the amplifier, typically causing a rolloff in the highs or other undesireable effects like weak bass. This can be managed by properly choosing component values in the voltage divider, and considering their effects as a whole with the amplifier... It's possible to do it right, but even then, it's not good for signal integrity or sound. If the point of bi-amping mis matched amplifiers is for better sound, I feel that the suggeston is counter to the goal.
What a cool modular synthesizer ! Let's have video 'bout that !
@paul, What about the Amplifiers that have functionality like 2 pairs of connections for Left and Right. These Amp's have so-called zoned speaker connections. It allows one to connect 2 pair of speakers or use it with speakers that has 2 pair of LF/HF connectors. In this case, is it Verticle Bi-Amping? the second part to this question is, if the amplifier is rated at 100W's per channel, how is that going to affect this configuration? (Driving 2 pairs, 4 speakers should be demanding than driving 2 speakers at 100W's, so theoretically Amp should be able to pump 400W's ?)
Very interesting
If you have an amp with better tweet dynamics use it with your tweet, using one with better bottom end for.........guess what , woof woof, seems simple, i currently use an old electrovoice amp for right left tweets, two kenwood monobloks for my woofs and a cheap class d bridged to mono for my subs. Sounds very nice.
Phase should be considered as just as important. Just as phase shifts differently from one passive crossover (and sections) to another, the same thing happens in different active gain and crossover circuits. Paul should know how important phase is for proper imaging and coherence. Cheers
To biamp mismatched amplifier gain, you can use a Schiit Sys (ready made solution) between your preamp and hotter amp to attenuate its gain. This can be a hit and miss option, due to preamp and amp impedance matching, not to mention the absolute importance of using the same brand and length of interconnects, speaker wire and power cords in this scenario. If you use the same amplifier model everything gets much simpler and if you're wondering, there is an advantage, when less than ideal power amps and speaker combos are in play! th-cam.com/video/TnXUtUUYzec/w-d-xo.html
So would my 1980 Carver c4000 and M400 benefit from bi amping if I used my idle Harmon Kardon 75w AVR for the HF? ...That patch board synth RIP Keith Emerson.
Hi Paul I think there is advantages on biamping with two different amps horizontally I run a Audiolab power for the low frequency’s and I have a NAD C 270 for the high frequency’s the NAD has a gain control and are both rated at 120 watts and work brilliantly to gather have tried stopping the amps that other way but that’s the best combination,even if they are a bit old still sounds great.thanks Tony.
Hi Tony,
I was wondering if you could guide me on my setup:
I have the NAD c162 pre-amp with 2 pre-outs. Pre-out 2 has a gain control. I want to bi-amp using the NAD c272 for the Low end and the NAD 320bee (or 302) for the high end . I know the c272 has gain control.
How do I setup the gain on the c272 to match the other amp (either 320bee or 302) ?
I know the 320bee and 302 are integrated amps , but , I intend to use one of them as the second power-amp on a horizontal bi-amp.
Any help would be much appreciated,
Cheers
@@andrebonfim6702 hi Andre I’m not at home at the moment but will get on to it when I get back. Tony
@@tonystevenson6068 fantastic! I am extremely grateful friend
@@andrebonfim6702 hi Andre hope this isn’t too late to get back,you probably won’t need the Pre-out 2 with gain control with all the amps been NAD they all probably have the same decibel gain so just leave the gains to 0 and should be ok I think my NAD C270 is 13db gain witch matches fine with my Audiolab 8000P. If you just experiment with witch amp sounds better on high and witch sounds better on low.Hope that’s of any help.Tony
@@tonystevenson6068 Hi Tony, thanks for the reply.
I have connected the c162 preamp with the c272 and the c320bee .
I read that both c272 and c320bee have the same “voltage gain” (29db).
In this case , shall I leave the gain button of the preout that goes to the c320bee as “0”?
Is the “voltage gain” that needs to be the same? Or is it something else?
Sorry for the stupid question but if I don’t ask , I will never learn.😁
I have 2 subwoofers with left/right in/out. Can I use bi amp connection to subwoofer left/right in, connect the subwoofer left/right out to speaker bi amp?
How about this scenario…
Using an AVR with Sub pre outs and you want to run that through a power amp, but highs/mids powered via the AVR’s left and right channels. Speakers would be bi amp wired.
Why not an electronic crossover you'd be able to adjust the levels for each frequency range, and also make frequency adjustments.
are the big speakers on the back Sony's??
I didn’t look at the comments because I don’t want my questions swayed. I understand your advice to keep the ohmage/ impedance of the different amps similar but what about the delta when the volume is changed? Amp number 1 could see a sweep of 1 millivolt as casual while amp number two could treat it as serious. Ignoring the MAF function (loudness button) how can folks to reliability assume delta from the preamp will equal delta outputs from different amp manufacturers?
I'm sorry but I disagree. The Glorious Infinity IRS V's are basically bi amped, it's just the speakers are separated (tweeters and mid towers and bass towers) but all the towers have their own amps. Its where I got the idea of bi amping my Infinity RS IIIa's. I have 4 of them and they are total power ho's. Burned up so many Receivers over the years it was sick. Bought an external amp to take the power load off the receiver from the bass (what make my headlights dim in my truck). Passive bi amped the speakers and hook all the bass to the new amp and ran the high end side to the receiver and sent the receiver into protection mode faster than I did when feeding the whole speaker with the receiver. Found the top end caused all the ohms resistance. Ended up buying another amp for the top end and have never been happier. It really frees up the speakers. I can't explain it, but I feel like all the speakers going to the same terminal and fed with one wire constricts it. Separate amp for the bass and another for the high end. I've had these speakers for 35+ years and they just seem like they have been unleashed after bi amping them.
"QUESTION ... could i bi-amp my TRIANGLE antal esw EVEN IF I HEAR SOME SOUND ON THE TWEETER ( very little...) WHEN I ONLY PLUG THE BASS CONNECTORS ???..( whitout the metal brackets of course :)).. with two different amp do you think it gonna burn both amp ??..thank for the answer !! "
when you use an active crossover you also have to use an equalizer and people forget that! In a standard passive crossover you have passive EQ. which lowers frequencies!
Why does Paul have these amazing vintage instruments there?
Some of them are vintage, but he is in a music studio!
Why wouldn't he?
OR you could just buy a passive pre which in effect is a volume control and balance it that way.
You have McIntosh Mc901, 300w of tubes and 600w of ss in a box. It is made like mono block. Price acordingly
Grab a schiit sys passive preamp. Has a volume knob. Now your amp has a gain knob for $50. (Rca)
may i know whats the floorstander speaker on left
The studio uses Sony speakers as their floorstanders.
Why not first vertically bi-amp and match the gain so loudness on both speakers is the same, than switch to horizontal bi-amping?
You would need to control volume after that with some kind of pre-amp or interface I guess.
Why don't you ever address electronic, active crossovers (between preamp and bi-amp set up)?
I don’t totally agree with Paul. Let’s say I have the most powerful amp a brand makes and I like its sound, if I want to improve my system or need more headroom to drive a new set of speaker I either change brand or I bi-amp. Especially in the days of social distancing where auditioning equipment is hard why not stick with your guns?
Play us some moog Paul!
A simple wiring diagram on a whiteboard would've been MUCH better, for us novices.
naim used to sell a suite of amps just for this purpose
I would'nt muck about with horizontal biamping because you don't get the benefits of keeping the channels separate.
If one already has 1 tube amp and a separate Class D amp to begin with then they must already have a pre-amp with like front and rear rca outputs. Many have a built in fader or volume control.
If preamp doesn’t have this then just buy something like in link?
Could also just use a crossover.
www.crutchfield.com/p_142RLC/EFX-Remote-Level-Control.html
Wondering why anyone would want to vertical bi-amp?
Could avoid cross talk between l & r channel,s but in a good design there shouldn’t be any
Phase coherence. ;)
So both power supplies share the same load? And experience the same impedance curves.
Yes Will, but more than that... any inductive or capacitive component, be it in an active or passive circuit, will shift the phase of the signal passing through it. So different circuits, say within different amplifiers, will have different phase shifts from input to output. And phase can have just as much influence on stereo image positioning as level/gain.
@@gitech7450 aren’t you describing an active setup though?
Just use DSP lol
Why wouldn't you just turn down the gain rather than build this "resistive divider" if such a thing even exists.
Most power amplifiers don't have volume controls, but two AVR receivers do. Even then, there are tonal/amp personality issues unless the AVRs are identical.
The way you explain is very confusing..
By you using diagram and showing us will really help. But so far you are very confusing.
I think you missed the point.
Wouldn't be the first time. :) What did you think I missed?
Do not use bi amping! That was before when one cable type managed light frequencies best and another cable managed bass best. Paul has explained this in a video.
rather use a more powerful amplifier. you do NOT get better sound with
bi amping!
Agreed.... the only advantage to bi-amping is if you are really going all the way to replace passive crossovers with active crossovers.... but in doing that, you're really redesigning the speakers. A great part in the voicing of a speaker lies in the crossover.
@@TheMirolab Totally agree with you 👍🏻
When you use an active crossover you also have to use an equalizer and people forget that!
In a standard passive crossover you have passive EQ. which lowers frequencies.