Just take the note that Morannon orcs only get the +1 Fight if they are engaged in combat with a man model -> not when supporting So they want to be in the front
Yeah, but they do not have the options of two-handed weapons and basically cost 50% more than regular orcs, 0/10. I will only take them in lists where I have to.
@@grimgrauman7650 I mean maybe, I would rather just have more numbers, with the drum shooting is not that much of an issue. Defense only makes you die slower. The two-handers secure kills on Elves with a 4, heroes 5s at worst. One of the things they said in the video was "they hate [courage] 7." Which you don't have to worry so much about with two-handers!
This is the list I have been running, and it slaps so hard! The buffs that you can layer on your murder hobos are really good. The chieftains have the light shields to hold off strong enemies if needed. 800 Pts Usurpers of Edoras- 800 points | 70 models Usurpers of Edoras Freca, Lord of the West March: (80) 5x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (30) 4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24) 5x Hill Tribesman: Bow (30) Wulf, High Lord of the Hill Tribes: Horse (130) 5x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (30) 5x Hill Tribesman: Spear (30) 5x Hill Tribesman: Bow (30) General Targg: Horse (100) 4x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (24) 4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24) 4x Hill Tribesman: Bow (24) Hill Tribes Chieftain: Two-handed weapon, Light shield (50) 4x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (24) 4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24) 4x Hill Tribesman: Bow (24) Hill Tribes Chieftain: Two-handed weapon, Light shield (50) 4x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (24) 4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24) 4x Hill Tribesman: Bow (24)
Dude that looks awesome. Personally, is throw in Lord Thorne with 14 throwing spears and banner, maybe a Warhorn if I feel crazy. Stretching that FV4 wider is great too, and they have D5 so they can at least hold their own. Not to mention 14 throwing spears as either backline, Frontline, or mixed, adds a lot of versatility.
@KnudAutlermann I have an alternate list that runs Thorne for banner access and throwing spears, but in testing, I have found that you lose out a bit too much on consistency. Thorne's group makes for a solid center, but I personally prefer him at lower point levels to make up for the lack of being able to horde as much. Wildmen are as good at shooting as soldiers of Rohan as well. I kind of wish Thorne could bring riders, but that would probably be broken in this list. Still, I think Usurpers will be a strong list no matter how you run it. The protection from cavalry/monsters that the brands give is actually astonishingly good.
As others have said, I reckon dropping either a chieftain (or dare I say, targg) for Thorne and 1-2 banners and some F4 throwing spears is a worthwhile inclusion. Great to see it serving you well though! Alex
I'm very excited to try out Usurpers of Edoras. I taught my mate the game early last year and since then he has tabled me repeatedly with Riders of Theoden. Hatred(Rohan) is exactly what I need.
Yeah, I played Usurpers in a friendly match against Army of Edoras and it was a slaughter. They absolutely mince through Rohan armies. Wulf 1-shotted Helm. It was very fun but very brutal. You'll be able to flip the script on him very quickly.
I played with Muster of Isengard yesterday. As I have only one Warrior Captain painted up I had to go with Scout Captain as my second captain, and it was GLORIOUS. With two pikes supporting him and a banner re-roll he did't lose a fight despite having to go two-handed all the time. Then he wounded MT warriors with active shieldwall (d7) on 3+...
Yeah for Usurpers I'm genuinely unsure if I'd even bring Targ at high points since he's exactly the cost of 2 Wild Men Chieftans who have 4 might instead of his 2. Really just depends how good master of battle is by comparison and I'm not sure what the answer is there.
So, I've played 3 games now with the Usurpers and Targg (imho) is a must take. His Master of Battle has been insane. Sending him with Wulf to go hunt heroes is nasty as hell. Plus, having two cav models in a list really hurting for them has been quite helpful. On average, he's spent the equivalent of 5 might points in every game I've played thanks to Master. Anecdotal, and relying on some RNG of course, but I'd really encourage using him.
@@alex51011ah that’s a great use case having a tag team with Wulf. I’ve got the starter set so I like the idea of picking up just a handful of heroes and having a full new army so I’ll give that a shot! Edit: hot damn I just realised the +1 to wound heroes is for all Dunland in that list not just troops. I can see why Wulf is scary!!!
@Hughzaa9 Right? Plus Wulf using Heroic Challenge on the enemy general nets him +2 to wound (army bonus + challenge) AND he gets 2 might back if he kills them thanks to General Hunter. I feel like it's a list that looks kind of rough on paper (not much defence, fv, etc.), but the sheer numbers and shooting capability have made it quite fun for me.
Lots of good takes here, and a great video! I'm not really sure I'm as sold on Host this edition as I was last time around. A large part of its strength in the past was a super-cheap WK and Barrow Wights letting it hit crazy numbers (54 at 600) with great tricks and magic to shut down heroes. Now the numbers really aren't there (36 at 600 is fine, but when they're mostly Orcs it's not enough to win the warrior fights), the tricks and magic are worse, and there's less Terror. It gets a better WK in some regards, and the Werewolves are clearly an improvement, but I think it's going to struggle too much with warrior fights to be totally top-tier. How does it deal with Muster, or Minas Morgul, or Thranduil's Halls, or Gondor, or Ugluk's Scouts, or Depths? High skill ceiling, but very low skill floor (in the bad way). Minas Morgul is obviously much stronger, and is clearly a top-tier list. I do think that this isn't exactly the way to build it at either points value though. It's a list that can hit 45 models at 600 (with the FB), and I think that those extra 10 models are going to be worth much more than the extra few Morannons and the Drum. They change it from a slightly-larger-than-average list to a true swarm, which is huge. I also don't really think the Drum is great anymore: for 15 points more you could just get a Captain, who will give you the 2 Marches in games where you need it (and then provide a surprising amount of combat punch to boot) and will give you you 2 extra Might in games like Domination where you don't need the March. Plus, he's much less of a liability in Fog. The Drummer gives you a little more flexibility, but how often do you really need more than 2 Marches? At 600 I'd probably just leave him at home and get the extra models, and at 800 I think he turns nicely into another Captain. At 800, I'm also not sold on the second FB. It's very cool, but I've played against it a couple of times now and the 1 Might is pretty crippling. You have to play so cagey with him, and at that point are you really getting the value from the second flyer? And if he does get engaged, then you lose the benefits of the second caster who can dig the WK out of trouble. You could just take another Captain for 2 more Might (a real concern with this list, as noted), or spam out 8 more dudes if you have the warband slots (which you'd get from swapping the Drum for a Captain). I'd also not get too excited about the A5 WK. It strikes me as clearly an unintended impact from their simplification of Monstrous Charge, so while it's definitely great for the first couple events of the edition, I'd be surprised if it stuck around past the February FAQ. They flagged all the other big monster changes in WarCom articles, so it seems weird that they'd arbitrarily give FBs and Eagles (when ridden by Radagast, but not otherwise) an extra Attack without noting it in some way. The Muster of Isengard list is pretty classic, and I do think some crossbows are probably sensible. I don't really see the need for the horse on Saruman though, especially now that Sorcerous Blast is non-directional. It's a little bit of extra mobility in the lategame, or to (maybe) line up a spell a turn earlier, and that's nice. But realistically you want Saruman in a fairly central position a lot of the time, so you're unlikely to get that much value from it. And given that both variants of the list are a little low on numbers, 2 extra Uruks seems like a no-brainer to me. If you're worried about mobility getting to objectives, then just send those two warriors on a side quest from the start of the game and you'll end up in a way better position. One list that I'm surprised didn't make the cut is Depths of Moria. It's felt quite strong at all the points levels I've tested it at, and is arguably the most points-flexible Evil list now (spam Goblins at low points, then add the Watcher, then replace it with the Balrog, then add the Watcher back again). It's got its weaknesses, as ever, but I really do think there's a lot of strength that people need to respect now. The Balrog is as unstoppable as ever, and is now harder to avoid with M8 and Dominant 10. And the free Drum makes those Goblins a huge headache to deal with, especially given how good the model count can be. No banner is sad, but when you have the Watcher your opponent won't have one either! Always good to hear your thoughts!
Good to hear from you mate! Upon further playtesting your take on Minas Morgul I'd very much agree with. I've actually taken to dropping the 2nd wraith and the drummer for a Troll with Drum and additional captain with far more success. Regarding Angmar, haven't seen or heard many people playing with it atm but I'd also say the reduction back to 3" terror is also a big change to how people have to build their lists and select their heroes. Moria is definitely a sleeper, especially with the lack of shiny things to drop your model count (cant wait for bats and prowlers to return, RIP Blackshield shaman). Looking forward to seeing you at Cancon, hopefully another awesome match incoming! Alex
trying to make an isengart force work at 900points at the moment. would you include a third captain at 900 points? and i am also thinking about not taking sarumans horse. is the horse an autotake for you even tough it is worth 2 uruks?
@@MtnGoatGamingThanks for the reply mate. Follow up question, when using the morgul blade, do you get the standard 3 attacks? Can’t find any rule that says otherwise.
Played yesterday against Angmar at 500 points with Gulhavar, 2 barrow wights 2 specters and 2 werewolves. The list is solid and super strong in every matchup and can absolutely steal games in some scenarios with the control it gives you on the table
@@kylemckiernan1445 you mean that in his move section of the book movement is 6"? If that so that is his movement when he does not fly (like in woodland terrains) When a creatures flies the max movement is always 12"
The age of the WK is not over. The carn dum list looks awesome too. F7 Aldrac with 3 hill trolls looks menacing! Do you think theres any competative viability in it though? And a question: if your using a big hero like aldrac or Gil Galad, how do you play around magic? It just feels completely unbeatable when your opponent is running a Sarruman or a Galdriel. I get like 1 turn out of my big hero and then they just get transfixed to death. (At both high and low points)
The key thing to remember with big heroes is that they're often not that much more expensive than the enemy casters (now that the WK is forced to actually pay points for his power). If Saruman is mercilessly Transfixing your Aldrac every turn, then they're spending resources from a 170-point hero to stop your 120-point hero from killing stuff. That means that you should have 70 points more on the field killing their warriors, to hopefully break through to Saruman and tag him. That's obviously less applicable for Gil-galad, and to some extent there isn't a great answer there because it's his traditional weakness. But again, he's about the same price as Saruman, who can't reliably Transfix him every turn indefinitely. He's more expensive than Galadriel, but she's noticeably less reliable than Saruman, and you should have F6 Elves making a mess of her battleline. Just bide your time and wait till their caster fluffs it or only just casts, throw some Will at resisting and go for a big Heroic Combat. If you can kill 4 models that turn then things are way in your favour tempo wise, so your warriors should be able to clean up from there while Gil-galad takes a (Transfixed) breather. The exception is if your opponent has lined up a scary assassination run on your hero, in which case you should throw everything at resisting for that turn. But neither Saruman nor Galadriel can partner with anything that scary, so this sort of situation should be rare. A Transfixed Gil-galad is still totally fine for fending off Uruks or Elves, so just don't let him get exposed to a massive trap and you should be fine
I've never tried that! What I've been doing is just throwing in my big hero, then they get transfixed after 1 turn and beaten to death by an enemy striker. I'll try playing more conservatively with them next time. Thanks!
Genuinely, I think Carn dum are a mid table menace and can be played to podium. Double troll is the sweet spot at 750 for me ! But I think three is meta dependent. Spam your numbers hard and look to use Aldrac and trolls for as much brutality as possible !!! The easiest way to work around magic is to threat overload with characters and make it so you can continue pressure in as many areas as possible. I hope that makes sense. It’s not unbeatable !
When on fell beast WK gets Monsterus charge for +1A and it's counted as Cavalry so an extra +1A taking him to 5A on the charge. These rules stack in the new edition -Sean
@@BrickWannnot at all, why does a man on a horse get more attacks on a charge than a nazgul on a pound land dragon? Not an oversight at all, makes fellbeast slightly worth taking now.
@@Lerbrandt It's not certain, but it seems very likely. GW have flagged all the other big monster changes in WarCom, so making a change that arbitrarily gives FBs and Eagles (when ridden by Radagast, but not otherwise) an extra Attack without noting it in some way would seem odd. They clearly intended to simplify Monstrous Charge, and it seems very plausible that they just didn't realise how that would interact with those three specific models.
That Troll Chieftain Barad-dur list as a counter to Saruman is odd. I suppose we will have to see, I would expect it would result in a lot of laying on the ground prone or being Transfixed/Compelled into irrelevance and the rest of your army being overwhelmed. At least Grima doesnt get to freely run off the board in Recon and win the game by himself though as long as your dice dont hate you, so theres that.
@@joshsanders9129 it should be only for waiths on fell beast and radagast on eagles, i do not recall any other monster that can you ride upon but yes 1 attack more
Try play against corsair fleets with 3 ballistae max bows/ hero crossbows and +50 model count, is most annoying list to fight for good forces. on paper it's look meh, but no minimal range siege engine with d6 flung that can shoot to combat is really frustrating think for enemy heroes, and with power shooting you can easy kill many troops before combat starts.
Muster is a bit overrated, IMO. When Saruman really struggles (which is often), your troops can get run over by big heroes or hordes. Had a really rough game against Battle of Fornost. Grima is such a champ though.
Hot take army of Gothmog is really good at ~600. Just spam as many moranons as possible. Gothmog's enforcer is really good. Their biggest cuck is terror armies though. Losing the shaman was the biggest nerf to that list in this edition IMO.
OOFT hot take here, personally the enforcer is just plain ass, just having his won 3 might would be far better and more versatile. Additionally, losing Goroth and Zagdush and the lack of hitting power through gothmog makes their consistency somewhat questionable. I still want to see how it goes, but think it might find it tough nowadays... Alex
@MtnGoatGaming true, it would be nicer if it was true, might, but effectively, 4 points of might at 55pts is really good. Especially in this legion where you're mainly using might to call moves to get favourable fights or marches as you don't really have any combat heroes. But I don't think you need the combat hero's, I think your battle line is so strong with s4 d6, and you can spam out so many. Like 650 pts, you can have the 3 named heroes, 38 moranons with shields/spears, and shields/ one with a banner. Also, the best part of this list is the mini game, hoping that your opponent is playing a faction of men. XD
I'm not saying Muster of Isengard Zerker Frontline is bad... I just think it's overrated. Yes they're scary, yes they do put out a lot of work, yes there are few Frontline matchups they won't grind through, but you're also extremely vulnerable to magic, artillery, monsters, and certain big heroes. I think of it as the "big risk big reward" option for this list. It's not as flashy, it's not as good in the grind, but D7 Uruk-hai spam is a more safe option since you have more bodies, higher defense, and it's not like they're slouches in combat either. The strengths are so pronounced like the Zerker Frontline, but so aren't the weaknesses. I think both builds are totally viable and good, but from other conversations I'm hearing I do think Zerker Frontline is overrated. I could be proven wrong in the coming months.
Zerkers do fix the corage issue Isenguard now has. And an F5 enemy was a pretty classic weakness of the list. I played against Isenguard quite a bit last edition, and I managed to do crazy things against it with elves. If the list had F5 in it last edion, my elves would have suffered greatly
Considerations to the metagame are taken in real time, with the options available and chosen by the player base you are a part of. We do not have those options, so they do not factor in. The metagame at present still exists without them.
Wdym 1/3 has been released. Is there any info on what else will be released yet? I have been wondering on what will happen to the profiles that are yet not featured in the current "released" army lists. Like what forum do I have to go to to get mesbg news. Thanks for your help
@@gijuki1335 mostly *armies of middle earth* . To me personally, having played for many years, the rules released so far are just an early access version of the game that I enjoyed until the new edition, very bare bones. Cant wait for armies and legacies of middle earth to release so I will be able to play Khazad dum, Old Dain, Reaper Boltthrowers and many more again.
![The History of Sauron [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](/img/n.gif)
Just take the note that Morannon orcs only get the +1 Fight if they are engaged in combat with a man model -> not when supporting
So they want to be in the front
Yeah, but they do not have the options of two-handed weapons and basically cost 50% more than regular orcs, 0/10. I will only take them in lists where I have to.
@@ClaymoreLinx you also want them in the fron for the D6. I don't think that you really need two-handed weapons when you have blades of the dead
@@grimgrauman7650 I mean maybe, I would rather just have more numbers, with the drum shooting is not that much of an issue. Defense only makes you die slower.
The two-handers secure kills on Elves with a 4, heroes 5s at worst. One of the things they said in the video was "they hate [courage] 7." Which you don't have to worry so much about with two-handers!
@@ClaymoreLinxthis is a great point bro!
I’ll try it out in my next game!
This is the list I have been running, and it slaps so hard! The buffs that you can layer on your murder hobos are really good. The chieftains have the light shields to hold off strong enemies if needed.
800 Pts Usurpers of Edoras- 800 points | 70 models
Usurpers of Edoras
Freca, Lord of the West March: (80)
5x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (30)
4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24)
5x Hill Tribesman: Bow (30)
Wulf, High Lord of the Hill Tribes: Horse (130)
5x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (30)
5x Hill Tribesman: Spear (30)
5x Hill Tribesman: Bow (30)
General Targg: Horse (100)
4x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (24)
4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24)
4x Hill Tribesman: Bow (24)
Hill Tribes Chieftain: Two-handed weapon, Light shield (50)
4x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (24)
4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24)
4x Hill Tribesman: Bow (24)
Hill Tribes Chieftain: Two-handed weapon, Light shield (50)
4x Hill Tribesman: Flaming brand (24)
4x Hill Tribesman: Spear (24)
4x Hill Tribesman: Bow (24)
Dude that looks awesome. Personally, is throw in Lord Thorne with 14 throwing spears and banner, maybe a Warhorn if I feel crazy. Stretching that FV4 wider is great too, and they have D5 so they can at least hold their own. Not to mention 14 throwing spears as either backline, Frontline, or mixed, adds a lot of versatility.
@KnudAutlermann
I have an alternate list that runs Thorne for banner access and throwing spears, but in testing, I have found that you lose out a bit too much on consistency. Thorne's group makes for a solid center, but I personally prefer him at lower point levels to make up for the lack of being able to horde as much. Wildmen are as good at shooting as soldiers of Rohan as well. I kind of wish Thorne could bring riders, but that would probably be broken in this list. Still, I think Usurpers will be a strong list no matter how you run it. The protection from cavalry/monsters that the brands give is actually astonishingly good.
As others have said, I reckon dropping either a chieftain (or dare I say, targg) for Thorne and 1-2 banners and some F4 throwing spears is a worthwhile inclusion. Great to see it serving you well though!
Alex
I'm very excited to try out Usurpers of Edoras. I taught my mate the game early last year and since then he has tabled me repeatedly with Riders of Theoden. Hatred(Rohan) is exactly what I need.
Yeah, I played Usurpers in a friendly match against Army of Edoras and it was a slaughter. They absolutely mince through Rohan armies. Wulf 1-shotted Helm. It was very fun but very brutal. You'll be able to flip the script on him very quickly.
Bro, usurpers are great! And Wulf is just SO Good ! The free challenge for anyone is just brutal if played well!!!
I played with Muster of Isengard yesterday. As I have only one Warrior Captain painted up I had to go with Scout Captain as my second captain, and it was GLORIOUS. With two pikes supporting him and a banner re-roll he did't lose a fight despite having to go two-handed all the time. Then he wounded MT warriors with active shieldwall (d7) on 3+...
Genuinely think muster is one of the top 3 scariest lists that are out there right now.
Nice lists! I also encounter The Black Gate as a very solid list when you use 2 Troll.
At 600 points the one troll is great, anything above needs 2 monsters. I’m not opposed to the double troll.
But fellbeast and troll is where it’s at
Hey boys, love the discussions. Any chance of ever getting an Audio RSS feed of the pods? Id love to listen to them at work but cant via TH-cam
We are looking to eventually get over on to Spotify in the near future
-Sean
@MtnGoatGaming that's great news. An Audio RRS would be great too for those that don't use Spotify. Kinda like Entmoot/Green Dragon etc.
Yeah for Usurpers I'm genuinely unsure if I'd even bring Targ at high points since he's exactly the cost of 2 Wild Men Chieftans who have 4 might instead of his 2.
Really just depends how good master of battle is by comparison and I'm not sure what the answer is there.
So, I've played 3 games now with the Usurpers and Targg (imho) is a must take. His Master of Battle has been insane. Sending him with Wulf to go hunt heroes is nasty as hell. Plus, having two cav models in a list really hurting for them has been quite helpful. On average, he's spent the equivalent of 5 might points in every game I've played thanks to Master.
Anecdotal, and relying on some RNG of course, but I'd really encourage using him.
@@alex51011ah that’s a great use case having a tag team with Wulf.
I’ve got the starter set so I like the idea of picking up just a handful of heroes and having a full new army so I’ll give that a shot!
Edit: hot damn I just realised the +1 to wound heroes is for all Dunland in that list not just troops. I can see why Wulf is scary!!!
@Hughzaa9 Right? Plus Wulf using Heroic Challenge on the enemy general nets him +2 to wound (army bonus + challenge) AND he gets 2 might back if he kills them thanks to General Hunter.
I feel like it's a list that looks kind of rough on paper (not much defence, fv, etc.), but the sheer numbers and shooting capability have made it quite fun for me.
Lots of good takes here, and a great video!
I'm not really sure I'm as sold on Host this edition as I was last time around. A large part of its strength in the past was a super-cheap WK and Barrow Wights letting it hit crazy numbers (54 at 600) with great tricks and magic to shut down heroes. Now the numbers really aren't there (36 at 600 is fine, but when they're mostly Orcs it's not enough to win the warrior fights), the tricks and magic are worse, and there's less Terror. It gets a better WK in some regards, and the Werewolves are clearly an improvement, but I think it's going to struggle too much with warrior fights to be totally top-tier. How does it deal with Muster, or Minas Morgul, or Thranduil's Halls, or Gondor, or Ugluk's Scouts, or Depths? High skill ceiling, but very low skill floor (in the bad way).
Minas Morgul is obviously much stronger, and is clearly a top-tier list. I do think that this isn't exactly the way to build it at either points value though. It's a list that can hit 45 models at 600 (with the FB), and I think that those extra 10 models are going to be worth much more than the extra few Morannons and the Drum. They change it from a slightly-larger-than-average list to a true swarm, which is huge. I also don't really think the Drum is great anymore: for 15 points more you could just get a Captain, who will give you the 2 Marches in games where you need it (and then provide a surprising amount of combat punch to boot) and will give you you 2 extra Might in games like Domination where you don't need the March. Plus, he's much less of a liability in Fog. The Drummer gives you a little more flexibility, but how often do you really need more than 2 Marches? At 600 I'd probably just leave him at home and get the extra models, and at 800 I think he turns nicely into another Captain.
At 800, I'm also not sold on the second FB. It's very cool, but I've played against it a couple of times now and the 1 Might is pretty crippling. You have to play so cagey with him, and at that point are you really getting the value from the second flyer? And if he does get engaged, then you lose the benefits of the second caster who can dig the WK out of trouble. You could just take another Captain for 2 more Might (a real concern with this list, as noted), or spam out 8 more dudes if you have the warband slots (which you'd get from swapping the Drum for a Captain).
I'd also not get too excited about the A5 WK. It strikes me as clearly an unintended impact from their simplification of Monstrous Charge, so while it's definitely great for the first couple events of the edition, I'd be surprised if it stuck around past the February FAQ. They flagged all the other big monster changes in WarCom articles, so it seems weird that they'd arbitrarily give FBs and Eagles (when ridden by Radagast, but not otherwise) an extra Attack without noting it in some way.
The Muster of Isengard list is pretty classic, and I do think some crossbows are probably sensible. I don't really see the need for the horse on Saruman though, especially now that Sorcerous Blast is non-directional. It's a little bit of extra mobility in the lategame, or to (maybe) line up a spell a turn earlier, and that's nice. But realistically you want Saruman in a fairly central position a lot of the time, so you're unlikely to get that much value from it. And given that both variants of the list are a little low on numbers, 2 extra Uruks seems like a no-brainer to me. If you're worried about mobility getting to objectives, then just send those two warriors on a side quest from the start of the game and you'll end up in a way better position.
One list that I'm surprised didn't make the cut is Depths of Moria. It's felt quite strong at all the points levels I've tested it at, and is arguably the most points-flexible Evil list now (spam Goblins at low points, then add the Watcher, then replace it with the Balrog, then add the Watcher back again). It's got its weaknesses, as ever, but I really do think there's a lot of strength that people need to respect now. The Balrog is as unstoppable as ever, and is now harder to avoid with M8 and Dominant 10. And the free Drum makes those Goblins a huge headache to deal with, especially given how good the model count can be. No banner is sad, but when you have the Watcher your opponent won't have one either!
Always good to hear your thoughts!
Good to hear from you mate!
Upon further playtesting your take on Minas Morgul I'd very much agree with. I've actually taken to dropping the 2nd wraith and the drummer for a Troll with Drum and additional captain with far more success.
Regarding Angmar, haven't seen or heard many people playing with it atm but I'd also say the reduction back to 3" terror is also a big change to how people have to build their lists and select their heroes.
Moria is definitely a sleeper, especially with the lack of shiny things to drop your model count (cant wait for bats and prowlers to return, RIP Blackshield shaman).
Looking forward to seeing you at Cancon, hopefully another awesome match incoming!
Alex
Jay is a kindred spirit, switch those morannons out for two-handed regular orcs and our MM lists are basically the same.
@@ClaymoreLinx melted my heart ♥️
-J
trying to make an isengart force work at 900points at the moment. would you include a third captain at 900 points? and i am also thinking about not taking sarumans horse. is the horse an autotake for you even tough it is worth 2 uruks?
In host of the witch king, do warg riders get the 3” terror effect as they are orcs? Or does Angmar orc refer to the profile and not the keywords?
@@TheChristhesecond as long as they have the keyword orc in their profile man then they will cause terror from memory
@@MtnGoatGamingThanks for the reply mate. Follow up question, when using the morgul blade, do you get the standard 3 attacks? Can’t find any rule that says otherwise.
Played yesterday against Angmar at 500 points with Gulhavar, 2 barrow wights 2 specters and 2 werewolves. The list is solid and super strong in every matchup and can absolutely steal games in some scenarios with the control it gives you on the table
@reslime Guli has a 6" fly tho. Big nerf unless it's a typo
@@kylemckiernan1445 you mean that in his move section of the book movement is 6"? If that so that is his movement when he does not fly (like in woodland terrains) When a creatures flies the max movement is always 12"
@reslime read the new rulebook and get back to me. Specifically, the fly special rule
@@kylemckiernan1445 man i just got the book and checked you are right, but this changed in this new edition isn't it? Thanks for the tip!
@reslime yes, previously everything flew 12" but now they fly their move value. Meaning rules as written Guli is a 6" fly
The age of the WK is not over. The carn dum list looks awesome too. F7 Aldrac with 3 hill trolls looks menacing!
Do you think theres any competative viability in it though?
And a question: if your using a big hero like aldrac or Gil Galad, how do you play around magic? It just feels completely unbeatable when your opponent is running a Sarruman or a Galdriel. I get like 1 turn out of my big hero and then they just get transfixed to death. (At both high and low points)
The key thing to remember with big heroes is that they're often not that much more expensive than the enemy casters (now that the WK is forced to actually pay points for his power). If Saruman is mercilessly Transfixing your Aldrac every turn, then they're spending resources from a 170-point hero to stop your 120-point hero from killing stuff. That means that you should have 70 points more on the field killing their warriors, to hopefully break through to Saruman and tag him.
That's obviously less applicable for Gil-galad, and to some extent there isn't a great answer there because it's his traditional weakness. But again, he's about the same price as Saruman, who can't reliably Transfix him every turn indefinitely. He's more expensive than Galadriel, but she's noticeably less reliable than Saruman, and you should have F6 Elves making a mess of her battleline. Just bide your time and wait till their caster fluffs it or only just casts, throw some Will at resisting and go for a big Heroic Combat. If you can kill 4 models that turn then things are way in your favour tempo wise, so your warriors should be able to clean up from there while Gil-galad takes a (Transfixed) breather.
The exception is if your opponent has lined up a scary assassination run on your hero, in which case you should throw everything at resisting for that turn. But neither Saruman nor Galadriel can partner with anything that scary, so this sort of situation should be rare. A Transfixed Gil-galad is still totally fine for fending off Uruks or Elves, so just don't let him get exposed to a massive trap and you should be fine
I've never tried that! What I've been doing is just throwing in my big hero, then they get transfixed after 1 turn and beaten to death by an enemy striker.
I'll try playing more conservatively with them next time. Thanks!
Genuinely, I think Carn dum are a mid table menace and can be played to podium.
Double troll is the sweet spot at 750 for me !
But I think three is meta dependent.
Spam your numbers hard and look to use Aldrac and trolls for as much brutality as possible !!!
The easiest way to work around magic is to threat overload with characters and make it so you can continue pressure in as many areas as possible.
I hope that makes sense. It’s not unbeatable !
In Minas Morgul, what gives the wk 5 attacks?
When on fell beast WK gets Monsterus charge for +1A and it's counted as Cavalry so an extra +1A taking him to 5A on the charge.
These rules stack in the new edition
-Sean
@@MtnGoatGaming RAW they do stack, but it's 100% an oversight from GW that will get FAQ'd.
@@MtnGoatGaming You don't know that, why say it with such conviction until an official FAQ addresses this?
@@BrickWannnot at all, why does a man on a horse get more attacks on a charge than a nazgul on a pound land dragon? Not an oversight at all, makes fellbeast slightly worth taking now.
@@Lerbrandt It's not certain, but it seems very likely. GW have flagged all the other big monster changes in WarCom, so making a change that arbitrarily gives FBs and Eagles (when ridden by Radagast, but not otherwise) an extra Attack without noting it in some way would seem odd. They clearly intended to simplify Monstrous Charge, and it seems very plausible that they just didn't realise how that would interact with those three specific models.
Can’t wait for the good edition
Hang out for next week ;)
That Troll Chieftain Barad-dur list as a counter to Saruman is odd. I suppose we will have to see, I would expect it would result in a lot of laying on the ground prone or being Transfixed/Compelled into irrelevance and the rest of your army being overwhelmed.
At least Grima doesnt get to freely run off the board in Recon and win the game by himself though as long as your dice dont hate you, so theres that.
Sauron stat checks armies so hard, and if he gets on a roll he kills so well!
For a high value infantry list they hate a model that does this.
@@MtnGoatGaming Iiiiif you say so.
Can the WK channels "enchant bandes" on himself and combine with morgul blade ?
He can.
@@DesmondDentresti I Gues WK is better than i tought first time :)
thkx
Wait, so Monsterous Charge now stacks with the Cavalry charge bonus? 😮
Yes
Holy shite! That’s nuts
@@joshsanders9129 it should be only for waiths on fell beast and radagast on eagles, i do not recall any other monster that can you ride upon but yes 1 attack more
No but it's gonna be confirmed
Very interesting, thank you! Please tell me, why take two archers in HotWK?
Honesty bows man, ideally I’d take more.
Try play against corsair fleets with 3 ballistae max bows/ hero crossbows and +50 model count, is most annoying list to fight for good forces.
on paper it's look meh, but no minimal range siege engine with d6 flung that can shoot to combat is really frustrating think for enemy heroes, and with power shooting you can easy kill many troops before combat starts.
Here's a Baradur 800 pt list for ya. Sauron 19 warg riders (Shield & Throwing Weapon), Mordor shield Catapult.
Legendary.
Oh Jeez! This looks TASTY! lemme try it and get back to you !
Muster is a bit overrated, IMO. When Saruman really struggles (which is often), your troops can get run over by big heroes or hordes. Had a really rough game against Battle of Fornost. Grima is such a champ though.
Why doesn't the video have a subtitle option? 🤔
That’s a great question!
Hot take army of Gothmog is really good at ~600. Just spam as many moranons as possible. Gothmog's enforcer is really good. Their biggest cuck is terror armies though. Losing the shaman was the biggest nerf to that list in this edition IMO.
OOFT hot take here, personally the enforcer is just plain ass, just having his won 3 might would be far better and more versatile. Additionally, losing Goroth and Zagdush and the lack of hitting power through gothmog makes their consistency somewhat questionable. I still want to see how it goes, but think it might find it tough nowadays...
Alex
@MtnGoatGaming true, it would be nicer if it was true, might, but effectively, 4 points of might at 55pts is really good. Especially in this legion where you're mainly using might to call moves to get favourable fights or marches as you don't really have any combat heroes. But I don't think you need the combat hero's, I think your battle line is so strong with s4 d6, and you can spam out so many. Like 650 pts, you can have the 3 named heroes, 38 moranons with shields/spears, and shields/ one with a banner. Also, the best part of this list is the mini game, hoping that your opponent is playing a faction of men. XD
Pre watching the video. The 2 scout lists seem to be dominating low points imo.
Didn't include them since I don't think they scale up to 800 amazingly (maybe they do lol) but I have no doubt they'll be amazing at lower points!
I'm not saying Muster of Isengard Zerker Frontline is bad... I just think it's overrated. Yes they're scary, yes they do put out a lot of work, yes there are few Frontline matchups they won't grind through, but you're also extremely vulnerable to magic, artillery, monsters, and certain big heroes. I think of it as the "big risk big reward" option for this list.
It's not as flashy, it's not as good in the grind, but D7 Uruk-hai spam is a more safe option since you have more bodies, higher defense, and it's not like they're slouches in combat either. The strengths are so pronounced like the Zerker Frontline, but so aren't the weaknesses.
I think both builds are totally viable and good, but from other conversations I'm hearing I do think Zerker Frontline is overrated. I could be proven wrong in the coming months.
Zerkers do fix the corage issue Isenguard now has. And an F5 enemy was a pretty classic weakness of the list.
I played against Isenguard quite a bit last edition, and I managed to do crazy things against it with elves. If the list had F5 in it last edion, my elves would have suffered greatly
@lutzeichmeyer9338 again, not saying it's bad, I just think it's the new shiny thing that's overlooking the more classic build.
@@KnudAutlermann
Cannot agree more. Classic Isenguard uruk spam was awesome last edition without shieldwall. It will be ever better with it now!
Fair enough take! I think a minimum of 3-6 will still be insanely worth the cost though!
Alex
How the witch King can have 5 attacks??
With fell beast now takes 1 attack bonus for cavarly and 1 more for monstrous charge
isn't *Meta* a tad big of a word, when barely 1/3rd of the games content has been released?
Considerations to the metagame are taken in real time, with the options available and chosen by the player base you are a part of.
We do not have those options, so they do not factor in. The metagame at present still exists without them.
Wdym 1/3 has been released. Is there any info on what else will be released yet? I have been wondering on what will happen to the profiles that are yet not featured in the current "released" army lists. Like what forum do I have to go to to get mesbg news.
Thanks for your help
Meta literally means “most effective tactic AVAILABLE” since this is what’s available right now it’s a fair meta discussion
@@gijuki1335 mostly *armies of middle earth* . To me personally, having played for many years, the rules released so far are just an early access version of the game that I enjoyed until the new edition, very bare bones. Cant wait for armies and legacies of middle earth to release so I will be able to play Khazad dum, Old Dain, Reaper Boltthrowers and many more again.
First