Final Year UK medical student. Me and my friends have just been randomised for our foundation training allocation (not based on academic merit) to our 6th-18th choice deaneries. We can't even pick which rotations we get if we are ranked low. Whilst PAs get to freely chose where they go? They have been taking our spots on placement where I occasionally get turned away because there is already a PA student shadowing a doctor. Honestly its just shocking- they have a huge amount of confidence, and it is really worrying, I am worried they will start telling me what to do when they start becoming more senior rather than every healthcare professional sticking to their own role and working as part of the MDT. Thank you for making this. Its about time someone stood up!
They have been taking your spot? If they are in training and already with a doctor before you get there, why not find your own spot? If they're a student then they have the right to be there as they're focused on their own training and have earned the right to be where they are which is in their lane. Best to stop comparing yourselves to people who aren't even in the same course as you. The bullying is so disgusting. As if the NHS runs on doctors alone.
@@ThePushUKLifestyleusually the nurses shadow the nurses and doctors shadow doctors. When PA students are not allocated a spot on their timetable that a medical student is, I would say it is unfair. If you are so salty about doctors why are you shadowing them? Why not shadow a PA? How am I bullying anyone? You said stick to your own role, so how about the shadow an actual PA instead and stop stepping out of line.
@@DrSophieGP So why make a video about PAs when you don't even understand that PAs role is to work under a doctor's supervision. Yeah and PA training needs protection just as much as you think junior doctors' training need too so do nurses and all health care professionals and if you think PAs can shadow PAs then until PAs are granted prescription rights and all to work without doctors since you think they should shadow PAs, then PAs can continue to shadow the consultants who like them more than junior doctors anyway
Nobody in medicine thinks they are doctors, the trusts should be delegating duties and appropriately supervising them as was always sipposed to be the case
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
Congratulations on an excellent clear video explaining the very real perils of PAs. We in the BSIR British society of interventional radiology voted for a halt in recruitment of PAs in our recent AGM. We also pointed out some of the problems in our recent article in Clinical radiology. There are only 3 PAs in our specialty so far, but there are more posts advertised.......
There does seem to be a push from somewhere to steam ahead despite concerns. Thanks for taking the time to give this positive feedback, it means a lot to know it resonates across different specialties.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
Very brave of you to be so frank. But the assault on the NHS must be talked about openly. Imagine taking a flight and realising a baggage handler is in the captain's seat.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf First of all I'm not a doctor, reesee-dh5bf, totally real named person you. I'm a concerned future patient. And PAs are not doctors, they are cosplaying arseclowns. I know they're too thick to even understand they're just poison pills introduced by those who want to finish off the NHS in this country. But their IQ appears to improve when it comes to self-interest, so listen to this. If, god forbid, their project to destroy the NHS ever comes to fruition and we end up with a two-tier health system in this country, do you think PAs will go on enjoying their 50k+ a year salary? Or do you think they'll be the first to be chucked under the bus? The difference is, at least the junior doctors can go overseas. There's no payday for PAs in the Gold Coast; they have no real training recognised internationally (hence the cosplay). The ones making big money from all this already don't care about human lives such that they'd go and replace real doctors with fake doctors. Do you think they'll treat fake doctors with respect? (hence the arseclown)
Not a great comparison. A better metaphor would be a Cessna pilot vs a 737 pilot- the Cessna pilot is fine when flying a small propeller plane, but when they are being allowed to attempt flying a 737 they are potentially catastrophic.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
There are some places in London where PAs have literally hijacked the deptt and would make Rota for doctors. Most unfortunate thing is when they are backed up by some registrars and consultants as they believe PA stay in the deptt for years while junior doctors keep rotating so priority is given to PAs.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Hi, USA PA is here trying to understand the problem in the UK health system. So you are saying that PAs replacing MDs but they can't even prescribe or send referrals for imaging. It seems like even if PAs really wanted to replace MDs they still couldn't do so as they can`t fully function as providers with such limitations. In the USA PAs can prescribe and send referrals, but they still require MD supervision. I work in a hospital setting and our health system heavily relies on APPs. I see patients for surgical consults and I spend way more time than MD with patients on the floor managing their post-op course, I do consult my attendings for more complicated patients and other specialties as needed, as I`m aware of my scope of practice and limitations. I have been called many names: " , doctor wanna be, nurse, nurse assistant", but I always make it clear that I a PA, although I could care less about my title. I call myself a patient assistant, once I`m on the floor rounding, I also feed them, move them, and clean them as needed to help my nurses and nurse assistants. Patients see it all and they appreciate it and often they don`t care about the title when they see good care. I also earned the trust of my surgeons, who rely on my evaluation and clinical judgment, but of course, the final decision regarding surgical intervention is made by the surgeon. However, there were a few cases when a surgeon thought that surgery could be done electively, but I insisted and the patient listened to me (since I spent way more time with her and saw the progression of the disease, perhaps, she also developed some trust in me despite the fact that I wasn't a surgeon), and I was right, she did require surgery at the admission, and the patient was very happy with her decision and was very grateful for my input. I would never diminish the work that MDs have done, I don`t compete with them, nor I wanna be them, I collaborate with them, so patients get the best healthcare. I have seen terrible doctors and incredibly gifted PAs/NPs and also bad PAs and brilliant MDs. Let`s put it this way, my attending will trust my clinical evaluation more than any hospitalist MD with their gazillion years of training. Also, it was very hard to get to PA school (7 years ago, even harder now) 2000 applicants for 50 spots, 3.8 and higher, previous clinical experience (preferably EMT, paramedics, medical assistant), at least 100h, shadowing, participating in research. Medical schools in do not require even half of what PA schools require, PA school was hard as hell, none of our tests had 100% passing scores,even got shingles from the stress I went through. I graduated with honors ( English is also my second language). Perhaps, the educational system is different in our countries, PAs in require a minimal 1500h of clinical experience prior to practicing medicine, and of course, I continue to learn while at the job even took me 6 years in total to get my degree, and with 5 years on the job, I still will be more knowledgeable than MD who just graduated.
Thanks for sharing, it’s really interesting to hear how things are for PAs in the USA. I understand your training is completely different and I think the UK version is trying to be a watered down version, but with similar responsibilities. Sounds like you’re doing an amazing job 👍🏻
their training is not completely different. It's the same as in UK. It's just that they have prescription rights, and people don't highlight some bad fuckups done by PAs while working in the media. I'm sure doctors cause more fuckups than all of the PAs combined in UK. It's a part of the job. People make mistakes sometimes.
@ doctors, despite all their years and years of ongoing training & exams, do make mistakes; employing vastly lesser trained people are therefore highly likely to make more mistakes. In the US, PAs are required to accumulate extensive clinical experience hours before even applying to a PA course, and have a well stipulated scope of practice.
@@DrSophieGP Vastly lesser trained people.? PA'S work under their scope of practice they were trained in, they go to universities to study, not on TH-cam. They are highly skilled professionals and are a part of the healthcare team just like nurses and physiotherapists. The problem is doctors like you who compare PA's to MD's. PA'S are not claiming to be doctors and have no intention to do so. They do their work but junior doctors are pissed off that PA'S make more money than them. That's where the jealousy arises from. PA'S work under physicians ; it's literally a job that has existed for years. And FYI medical errors by Doctors is the third leading cause of death in the hospitals. So that says a lot about the errors that can happen when you're dealing with complex bodies of human beings.
@@RAO.NUTRITION You're absolutely right. When Drs boast of years of training, the more reason we should not allow them to make any mistakes at all if they're wanting to bring down PAs as PAs are safe due to the fact that patient cases are being discussed with another so therefore not rushed.
Fantastic piece of content here Sophie, so so important that patients are aware of what is happening in their NHS and creating simple, straightforward explanations like this is the only way that they will know. Very big thank you from a JD here knowing that our consultant colleagues like yourself are aware and fighting on our side for the betterment of patient safety! 🙌
This really means a lot to me, thank you for commenting. I really wanted to produce something balanced and factual. Absolutely support JDs and hope we can keep you in the NHS! 🤞🏻
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf I, having worked in one of the largest PA employing trusts in the UK, can tell you a few things. There is nothing personal about my comments about PAs. Like every profession- there are some who are extremely nice and some who are not. I treat them with respect no matter who they are. My comments are not ill informed nor misguided, having seen many unsafe practices take place at my trust when PAs work outside their remit. The problem is that a 2 year degree which is not medically trained to the same level, is doing the same work as doctors up to registrar level! And regarding less recognition and respect- this is completely untrue given that PAs work in their specialty for many years and know the system and seniors much better than rotational trainees. Given that PAs knew when they applied at the age of 21 (minimum) they should have known there was minimal career progression and could have easily applied to GEM is a problem I cannot solve. Now the pay is the cherry on top. A doctor would have to work for at least 5 years (after 5 years of medical school)- passing multiple exams, jumping through portfolio hoops, getting thrown across the country in order to earn THE SAME AMOUNT as their “so called assistant”. So maybe you should stop insinuating all doctors are biased and ill informed and take a second to think “maybe doctors are frustrated because there are safety concerns for patients and they can’t get the training needed to give better care for patients” or will you follow your “herd” mentality and not think laterally for at least one second.
I am a band 8a Advanced clinical practitioner in cardiology central London. I am NOT a doctor and DO NOT want to be a doctor. Physician associates work under a consultant the same way as I do. They have a restricted scope of practice as I do and it’s their responsibility to liaise with their consultant when necessary. I am sick of hearing PAs replace doctors, replace GPs.. who is allowing this? when are we going to talk about the responsibility of consultants and senior doctors agreeing to have PA under their wing without challenging what they do. Why do GP surgeries employ PAs at all then? Cheap labour left seeing undifferentiated patients on their own? If I was a PA I would refuse and challenge this. We should be harassing the government and GMC for more regulation, regulation, regulation if we are so worried about patient safety. Is the GMC acting quickly enough? If not, we should be protesting outside the GMC headquarters instead creating fear in the general public who have zero insight on hospital reality and will therefore be extremely influenced by any youtube/social media video telling them that they may be in danger. Let’s get things moving in the real world rather than producing more virtual social media content from the comfort of our own homes.
The GMC are literally being taken to court about this. We are doing all we can, but we need public awareness too. Your years of accredited training, exams, CPD, nationally agreed scope of practice and regulation are completely different to the Wild West of PAs. We are absolutely calling out the senior clinicians and leaders who have allowed the PA train to run wild, if you watched my video you would see that I put the blame exactly there and away from individual PA. I suspect you didn’t watch all the video.
@@DrSophieGPGP/consultant responsibility is mentioned only once, for 2 seconds(7:50) when talking about horrible headlines “the PA should have been supervised properly by a doctor” that’s all? There is a narrative of fear and imminent danger depicted throughout. The summary is : PA are expensive and unsafe. There is a conspiracy theory thrown out at the end about the government trying to create an NHS with non medics and private sector with doctors. I agree with one thing, PAs should not rotate and should instead work on the same medical/surgical ward where they would become part of the permanent team and gain valuable insight on the day to day management of patients in that particular ward. Good luck to all the PAs out there.
@@DrSophieGPthe gmc regulation is going ahead in december, it wont be stopped now, thats accepted.However, they arent setting scope of practise which I assumed was part of it, they want the royal colleges to do that but those colleges have no legal power to enforce that.Thats part of anaesthetist united case against GMC
@@DrSophieGP Wouldnt you agree it would be a good thing?The specifics of regulation is on the GMC site but doesnt cover scope which I was surprised about.
Very informative and clearly explained. It's a shame that priority is being given to building less standards of care for the masses with posts like the PA's and AA's. Now I know better.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you very much for bringing these unqualified people to my attention. I will make sure that no AA or PA does anything to me that they are not qualified to do, should I ever find myself in hospital.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
I’m in the USA and have seen a PA as my primary care for 20yrs. No way you see a doctor here. Not sure if it’s the same, but PA here can prescribe medication, xray, CT. If she is not sure she will set you up with the over seeing Dr. My PA has saved my life when I had a lung collapse. I feel confident in her ability. But again, not sure how much it’s different in the UK! 🤠💕
Thank you for sharing your experiences from the States! I believe there are quite a few differences in prior experience and training for PAs in the USA. I still wonder why anyone needs to go through the effort of training to be a doctor though, if a PA can do everything a doctor can do 🤷🏻♀️
There isn't a difference as the curriculum in the UK is the same as the US. US PAs brought the profession to the UK 20 years ago. The only reason why UK PAs don't prescribe is there needs to first be regulation which is happening in December by the same body that regulates Drs which is amazing. Glad you appreciate PAs out there. Only a few Drs in the UK come on social media as a last stunt to deliberately mislead the public about PAs as they find them a threat to their profession and are trying to prevent regulation of PAs by the GMC this December but this will die down as regulation is definitely taking place and even the chief medical officer welcomes PAs as well
I’m glad to see efforts to educate others about the vital role of Physician Associates. The training of US PAs serves as the inspiration for the UK’s model, and the standards are the same. UK PAs aren’t allowed to prescribe because they’re not a regulated profession but as of today 13/12/24, they’re now regulated by the GMC which is a significant milestone for their profession. For anyone to claim that PAs are unqualified or lack the necessary training to perform their roles is simply untrue. Regulation by the GMC underscores the profession’s competence and importance. If PAs were unsafe, they would not meet the criteria for regulation. Moreover, regulation enhances patient safety by holding PAs to strict professional standards. Like Drs, PAs will require a GMC license to practice in the UK henceforth and no PA would jeopardise their license by acting irresponsibly. Regulation also paves the way for future prescribing rights. While PAs currently consult with their supervising Drs for prescriptions, they’re trained to recommend appropriate medications based on patient needs. Although the US PAs are like 4 decades ahead in terms of practice rights, UK PAs are steadily advancing as their profession gains greater recognition. The Physician Associate title is now protected, reflecting the respect the GMC and other Drs/MPs and so on have for them. Attempts to demean PAs by calling them “assistants” other than associates are baseless and do not diminish their qualifications, expertise, or standing in the healthcare system. In the UK, Physician’s assistants don’t hold an MSc degree and aren’t trained to carry out the roles of Physician Associates but they too as with all MDTs, clinical and non-clinical staff all play a vital role in the NHS and should all be respected equally, regardless of their ranking which is what a lot of Drs in this campaign have forgotten. PAs remain committed to their patients, and their professionalism throughout this campaign speaks louder than uninformed opinions!
This is a brilliant summary of the problem with PAs in healthcare, it is such a good explanation of what the concerns and issues are regarding Physician Associates (originally called Physician Assistants) Worth a watch. Thank you for taking the time to explain this complex and scary situation! 👏👏👏
Its not scary if managed correctly which is being done in every other country except UK apparently.Holland for eg have full prescribing rights and fully regulated and is newer role than in Uk.Germany the same not to mention US where theyre virtually independant practitioners in Several states.The courses are no different to the UK educational model.
Thank you for your time and invaluable summary on one of the hottest healthcare topics of the year. It looks like unregulated markets either drive away doctors or raise the bar too high for the entry into specialty training. Nothing new. What's disconcertingly strange is that, a highly centralised system designed this model of care. One expects this to happen in insurance-based systems, such as in most European healthcare systems. Heading towards privatisation is a fact in many systems, but role fragmenting with little to no regulation is a bit steep. My first NHS role was made redundant 12 years ago. I could never get back in (sorry, long story) having originally trained overseas. Then Brexit came. This was another straw on the camel's back. And now we're where we are. But let's hope it can only get better after those 'never events' which shook many walks of life. Wishing everyone good luck and a win-win by the end this settles. Kind regards, Andreea
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf not sure I understand your point but I wrote a response letter in the HSJ years ago and may have expressed a similar thought when it came, at the time, about discussions on public health specialists, given that they all have various backgrounds, two registers, etc. 'Specialism' stems out of a primary degree. All PA are welcome to join the ranks, it's just that routes will never match an identical value stream of a doctor. Doctors grow up with a high and acute awareness of the risk and uncertainties they face in practice. Responsibilities are huge. As a doctor I am not the one who holds a whole cake. And I never took a slice of a cake which I held responsibility for, without putting the community I served first. I am privileged to have gained a very highly competitive entry into the medical school at the time I wanted to study medicine. I still stand tall yet reflect on my whole career veering with a humble and deep contemplation. Wishing every single PA to achieve a fulfilling career
@@andreeasteriu2073 "Doctors grow up with a high and acute awareness of the risk and uncertainties they face in practice. Responsibilities are huge" and why is that you think a PA cannot be brought around to the same level of awareness. is it because PAs didnt do the same 5-6yrs of medical school. sure, PAs have 2yrs of medical training. but who says that learning for PA stops after PA school. that literally is just the beginning. in the world of such advanced technology, free information, creative online teaching platforms (think medical youtubers vids such as osmosis, medical ninja, armando) geekymedics. even traditional medical textbooks like oxford handbook that is freely aviable to anyone in a capitalist market. what is there stopping PAs from eventually learning and accumulating same level of knowledge / sense of responsibility as a medical doctor? why does eveyone seem to think that growth for PAs is capped at PA school and PAs are not capable of learning anything past PA school. whereas medical students keep growing post medical school and retain the ability to learn and continue growth. having said all tht you sound like a sensible person. thank you for sharing your views.
This is what we have been waiting for! A simple explanation of what is happening in the NHS the beginnings of a two tier health system that favours people who can afford private healthcare. The public need to be made aware of what is happening and this will hopefully help them to understand at the same time why doctors are so disillusioned and disheartened. We need to look after our doctors or we will lose them. I hope people understand how brave you have been creating this video. Thank you
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you for the insightful video. It should be played in GP / OP waiting rooms across the country. It's a shame that the historically reputable NHS is being devalued and deskilled. It's abhorrent that the 'be kind' rule from the GMC was as a consequence of doctors like yourself highlighting the legitimate patient safety concerns around PAs. The disturbing thing is neither the GMC, Royal Colleges or Trusts have any idea of what PAs should be doing and this has been exploited where we're now seeing PAs in tertiary units taking referrals. It's demoralising.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thanks for raising awareness Sophie, the public deserves honesty and the right to choose and without this type of content are loved ones and families are at a huge risk.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Dr Sophie, as i am considering applying for the Physician Associate masters degree what would the perfect way for someone like me looking forward for this career path and also what should I realistically do to make the working environment suitable for workers and patients? Since i am not a weak person but not really a leader like a proper doctor and if i was supervised to some degree then i agree to that.
I really would recommend considering a different career path, due to the current uncertainty about the role. You don’t have to be a leader to be a doctor!
Hey definitely go for the Physician Associate career. You will be regulated by the GMC, well respected and from what I hear, a good work life balance without needing to be the sole responsible person for your patient as your supervising Dr would be. You can work in any specialty including surgery and get a good pay. Don't like a few social media Drs influence your decision otherwise as remember you do not want to be a doctor. Not every one wants that
To become a GP, one needs MINIMUM 5 YEARS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL AND A MINIMUM 5 YEARS TRAINING AFTER QUALIFYING. So enter medical school at age 18, MINIMUM age before you become a GP, is 28, with tons of knowledge, skills and experience.
And what has the number of years for doctors have anything to do with PAs who aren't doctors? PAs only need the two years because they're not and do not want to be doctors while they work alongside doctors because they're the ones with the number of years training.
@@ThePushUKLifestylethen why are they doing illegal procedures???? Can’t wait till the government turn on these useless PAs they are the thickest people I’ve met. Rejected from medicine and probably from their parents too lol
@@ThePushUKLifestyle But the whole point is that they are in fact taking roles meant for doctors, replacing them on rotas, in clinics, in surgery and in GP practices.
@@DrSophieGP and that's why their profession was created. To fit into those rotas in clinics, surgeries and GP practices but not as doctors or to replace doctors but as PAs that they're trained to be. You mislead gullible people by saying they're taking roles meant for doctors and replacing them. It's been stated severally that PAs DO NOT REPLACE doctors. PAs are medics, like it or not and are now part of the MDT just like any other health care profession in the NHS. And you don't have to be so condescending about their years of training. Stop trying to fit them into the doctor role and falsely accusing them of taking doctor jobs when in fact, they're hired to be PAs and into a PA role which includes GPs, surgeries, clinics as they are trained to be.
@@RAO.NUTRITION In the US, PAs are required to accumulate extensive clinical experience hours before even applying to a PA course, and have a well stipulated scope of practice.
@@DrSophieGP an allied health science degree is required for both US and UK to study Msc.physician associate studies And the course outline is also the same. The only difference being that US PA'S have prescription rights and can order ionizing radiation. In terms of knowledge and skills you won't find any difference.
IMG here,got a GMC registration after plab2 and more than 7 yrs experience outside uk have been applying since one year in NHS ,no job yet after hundreds of applications.i wouldnt have stepped into plab had i known about the condition of the NHS.almost 2 Years of hard work into this pathway drains you out when there is no outcome
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
I'm well aware of this and have twice had receptionists try to pass them off to me as a doctor. Not realising themselves maybe that they're not the same thing. This is not good and has to be paused. It's more fully med school trained doctors that we need. This is just going to lead to a two tier system.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
They aren’t as contentious because paramedics and nurses have a wealth of knowledge. PAs do not. Also if a PA makes a mistake, you can’t hold them to account. Case in point, the PA that misdiagnosed Emily Chesterson is still locuming in London because she didn’t want to work under close supervision.
@@TheMoo1995 regulation will occur by then of the year - so they will be held accountable for their actions. There are also PA's with a wealth of knowledge over 10+ years of experience which shouldnt be devalued simply based on a title. The scope of practice does need to be clear but they shouldnt be undervalued.
@@Sonia-ig9fj I highly doubt that GMC regulation will bring accountability. It is likely that they will either persecute the Supervising clinician. As for wealth of knowledge, If a physiotherapist/Nurse or someone of another healthcare background retrained as a PA, then their valuable contribution will be from their respective healthcare background. However, a PA genuinely adds nothing to the team that a doctor can't add. That is why their role should be supernumerary. Furthermore, PAs are going to get shafted by the government. It is only a matter of time before the funding dries up, mistakes will add up because PAs are forced into roles they are not qualified for and the media will crucify them. It may be a good time to be a PA but if I was a smart person, I would know that it's only a matter of time before the government turns against them.
@@TheMoo1995 I believe regulation will lea d to accountability as once regulated, any complaints will be investigation and the PA may lose their GMC registration. I think there is a definitely a place for PA's in the NHS, especially with increasing population and workload, I don't think that will change. There are areas where PA's have worked very well with Dr's. There are also several highly competent PA's who are contributing to providing a high quality of care. Alot needs to be sorted out - especially junior Dr pay restoration. I guess time will tell.
Well spoken. It needs to be said. It would be wrong to blame the people involved. However I am sad to hear how many politicians condemn the BMA for speaking the truth. It is almost as if they care more about hurt feelings than about patient safety
@@DrSophieGP I don't think the way they are leading the way is entirely appropriate. It is definitely important for the valuable + experienced voices of Dr's to be heard. A very biased approach from the BMA regarding scope of practice from a trade union. NHS chief executive noted - “All parts of the NHS share a desire to improve patient safety and we know that effective team-work is essential to that objective. It is surprising to learn therefore that the BMA does not seem to have engaged with the Faculty of Physician Associates in developing this union guidance about a different staff group. "It is to be hoped that further BMA contributions to this important discussion are now carried out differently, and employers across the NHS and MAPs themselves would appreciate the opportunity to play a part in this.”
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@DrSophieGPthe BMA is a lobby group it puts doctor interests above everything.You cannot trust any such biased group for accurate unvested appraisal.
This is interesting debate. As a senior radiology professional this reminds me of reading the stories whilst at university about how radiologists didn't like the fact that radiographers pushed for learning how to read and interpret x-rays independently. This is now common place in the profession. I myself am a sonographer I independently report on GP requested ultrasound scans as well obstetrics and gyne scans. Is this not just the start of a major dynamic change in your profession?
I think the key issues is that the qualifications are not credited, PAs & AAs do not bring unique skills to the MDT, and they are replacing doctors on rotas and in GP.
*GASP* an ACTUAL NHS Doctor being naughty and speaking the truth?!?! Honestly, thank you so much for being a brave Doctor and exposing these dangerous people who are being hired! I appreciate it!!!
Thanks. I don’t think they are dangerous people, but they are being put in difficult positions, encouraged by seniors to be involved in job roles way beyond their competence. I appreciate most of them are just trying their best. The public deserve to be aware what is going on!
@@DrSophieGP an example of the negative connotation above through putting the role down in your video - the idea all PA's are dangerous is extremely damaging and unfair. Imagine if all consultants said GP's are 'dangerous people' due to a variation in training. It is not fair. Public awareness and putting down a profession at the same time doesn't cancel the latter out. After regulation I am hoping there will be more awareness + limitations of the PA role, without the need to put an entire profession down 🤞
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
It’s a shame the misinformation in this video has had such an effect on you. By all means go for a carer that best suits you. Most carers go through developmental stages. But be aware of biased opinions and misinformation. Some Doctors have made it quite clear this is the beginning of the battle against medical associate professions, so PA and AA today, others tomorrow. I would encourage you to do a constructive research and just be aware of the misinformation out there. In 5 or 10years time where will all these professions and healthcare infrastructure be? In my view, doctor, PA, AA, ANP, PP, ACP, nurse, doctor. All reasonable carer choices in their own right, but there will always be ups and downs, people who are have supportive views and also the opposite. All said, wish you the best of luck.
@Dronkytee i reall appreciate your supporting mannar but there's one thing that you have mentioned in your opinion about beginning a battle between doctor and PA WHILE IN THE MOST OF VIDEOS THAT HAVE MADE BY DOCTORS THEY SAID THAT BECAUSE OF THE LACK ANALYSIS SKILL OF THE PA MANY PATIANTS HAVE TO FACE DIFFERENT INCONVENIENCE.WHY ARE THIS CONTRAINS ACTUALLY DEVELOPED IN THE MEDICAL FIELD WHERE SOME DOCTOR SAID THEY DON'T LIKE PA OTHER SAYS NO IT'S GOOD TO GIVE A MEANINGFUL SERVICE TO THE PEOPLE.BY THE DRONKYTEE I ALSO LIKE YOUR UK AND MOREOVER THIS JOB of a PA....
@@ronykkj72 my point exactly. There are a lot of opinions that aren’t supported by constructive facts. PAs are trained to take histories, diagnose, manage, supervised by doctors. There are PAs and doctors that work well together and surely there will be lapses no matter which profession, but I find most of these videos and opinions generalise based on isolated incidents, shared perceptions, and polarised views. Hence I suggested doing some constructive research. You may well find the AA role isn’t for you and that’s fine too. I just think there is a lot of misguided opinions, perception and misinformation out there atm. I am particularly not for PA, AA, ANP or doctor. I just feel there is a lot of polarisation and misinformation out there and it’s worth being mindful of this.
@@DrSophieGP DOC ACCORDING TO YOU Choosing A carreer in ANISTHESIA ASSOCIATE GOOD OR BAD . I MEAN IN THE REAL WOULD SITUATION DO YOU GUYS REALLY LIKE TO WORK WITH THOSE GUYS OR NOT ..
I've heard plots about how GPs are being sidelined in fabour of PAs. Doctoring on the cheap even though they are nowhere near doctors. What is the solution? How can we the public or GPs show we are not in favour of this. PAs are not physicians. They name is deceptive. The people who allowed this mess to happen is who we should be annoyed with not necessarily the PAs themselves. It pays a decent wage so I'm not surprised it's a popular role. Thank you for being brave enough to speak out.
There is more noise and discontent, so NHS England are starting to sit up and listen, I do think things may change. In the meantime, you can ask which health care practitioners you are seeing at the GP surgery or in hospital and if it is a PA, you could ask if what their role and supervision will be.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
I do care and I am sorry for these ordeals. Though as a victim of a bad experience from actual doctors and nobody is willing to save me. If actual doctors are now having a bad experience, it can feel like "What goes around, comes around", "You reap what you sow".
My concern isn’t with doctors, it is with patients. Patients are the ones who will ultimately suffer. I’m sorry you have had a bad experience, the NHS is not in a good way, but taking on cheaper, inexperienced workforce will only make the problems worse.
@@DrSophieGP I am extremely humbled by your response. Well said. My deepest apologies for venting my frustrations, please forgive my unkind words. You are right. I do agree with you. It is very kind of you to raise these issues. You have put a lot of work into this. There is so much I wish to say, but I cannot say them here. And you probably already know. Best wishes.
I am now a senior hospital doctor and am also worried about this development and in particular how it's being implemented. I have had student PAs attached to my firm and while they have all been nice people, their underlying clinical knowledge has been - so far - much less than the medical students also attached to the firm. Fair enough, one might say - different roles, different requirements. But then the roles need to be more clearly defined and separated. This isn't to say that there isn't space for non-doctors to work within a medical team. When I was a junior doctor, in one job I did we had Medical Support Workers. They were _not_ necessarily clinically trained, would shrivel up in horror if patients referred to them as doctors and would rapidly correct them (they also had a very distinctive uniform to help delineate this difference), but they were extremely helpful in terms of helping to keep the smooth running of a medical firm going. They might chase up scans to ensure they would happen in time, they might liaise with other specialties to ensure referrals happened, they would help you find the correct form (back in the day when paper forms ruled pre-electronic patient records), they would come to inform the medics if a patient confided they didn't understand what was happening so that it could be explained again by the doctors, they would help new junior doctors settle in to a firm and explain the ways of doing things. Although not compulsory, some were trained in taking blood samples or fitting IV cannulae. There was no blurring of the lines, and they were valued and even loved by the medics in the team. I've also worked with some wonderful Advanced Nurse Practitioners (ANPs), some of whom do have prescribing rights and rights to order ionising radiation. They are usually very senior nurses even before they go into their ANP training, and importantly have years, sometimes decades, of clinical experience at that point already. Crucially, they have an instinct or an at-glance assessment ability of when a patient is unwell, they "know" (in the same way that a senior nursing sister will know when a patient is unwell - surprise: many of the ANPs _are_ nursing sisters prior to ANP training). Secondly, they have a real understanding of what they do and do not know. That I'm not sure is always present with PAs. I'm not necessarily totally against PAs as a concept - and let's face it, they're not going away - but they do I'm afraid need to be more "Assistants" than "Associates" for the lines not to be blurred and for safety to be maintained; when people say the PA system works in America, it's for this reason. I can see them being _part_ of the clinical team, as long as these are done and as long as there is proper supervision and regulation, but I personally would not put them on the same rota as doctors, i.e. there should still be a minimum number of doctors on a given day, and the PAs should be supernumerary or at least separate and not influencing the number of doctors there. They should also be very clear at self-identifying themselves as PAs and correcting patients if they misidentify them as doctors. I know PAs will say they do this, and hopefully most do, but I've heard of some obfuscating when asked by a patient and saying they are a "clinician", "a member of the clinical team", a "locum" and so on - all of which may strictly be true, but potentially confusing for a patient. In the same way that you don't want just a Police Community Support Officer (PCSO) turning up when you are being attacked and in fear for your life (you want and need a fully-trained Police Officer), you also do not want a PA being the one to manage your life-threatening emergency solo, but potentially they could be helpful in the actual physical presence of and working side-by-side with the correct doctor.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf I'm sorry that you feel that this was an attack, but actually if you read what I wrote you'll see that I said that I'm not against PAs as a concept and that there is space for others to work within clinical teams. Expressing concerns and sharing one's own experiences are not hate speech or being vindictive; not all critique is punitive, and it is part of working in the NHS to be open to scrutiny and appraisal. In fact, the most important people are not one's colleagues, be they PAs, ANPs or doctors; above all, our responsibility and absolute duty of care is to the patients, and what is best for them. Much of what is written about PAs (not all, I grant you) is with this in mind. I may be wrong, but this appears to have been a copy-pasted reply, since it doesn't recognise what I wrote above - I'm certainly not doing the same "grunt work" as you anymore and am not in competition - there is a _lot_ more responsibility in my role, and that justifies any differences you speak of. But, crucially, that does not mean you do not have your own part to play within the NHS, it just needs to be properly defined - partly to protect you and your colleagues - rather than made up as one goes along without due consideration, as this and previous Governments are/have been doing. EDIT: having looked through the rest of the comments, I can see that I was not wrong when I suggested you were copy-pasting this reply which has nothing to do with the post it replies to. You have made the *exact same reply* to posts by eccentricbeliever7, luxdoctor4747, rubysharma8952, iansstinson8684, doctorlisaclinic9000, hmzbn, TT-fn1xb, faisalhanswati3521, andreeasteriu2073, bonariablackie4047, YvonneHrusa-id2xl, TheMrsar28, livvy601, mystrength5640, peterdavidburke, gujralsarabjeet, sanjaylakhani2263...and I'm sure many others. I also see from your profile that you joined TH-cam on 22nd March 2024 and that at the time of posting this, all your replies to the posters above were made exactly 18 hours ago. You are therefore either a bot posting this randomly, part of a troll farm, or perhaps most worryingly of all genuinely a PA with an axe to grind posting this randomly in scores of posts. I think that should speak for itself, and people can make judgments for themselves about whether to value what you have written.
Most PAs do not tell the patient they are not doctors, too many stories of that happening. i was never told i was seeing a PA. I phoned the medical centre to see doctor and never told by the receptionist i was seeing a PA. That has happened to me so many times now I get paranoid when i go to see the doctor, are they real doctors or a fake ones? Its not good. Not one PA has asked me how my mental health is, even though its on my medical records why.
I disagree that medical students know more than PA students. Because I had experience where Pa students knew as much as med students. Please dont put all PAs down the rabit hole.
I had an unsuccessful interview for PA last year and was thinking about applying again next year. However, after watching your video, you do make some very valid points and I dont want to cause any harm to patients. I intially would have applied to do graduate entry medicine after my BSc, but the competetiveness of it all put me off from applying. However thats probably for the better due to the rigorous years of training and studying a doctor would need to see and treat patients as you correctly mentioned in your video. They have to find the right person who is dedicated and committed enough for this career. I'm currently working in an NHS histology lab as a medical lab assistant so I think im going to carry on working towards becoming a Biomedical Scientist. There does seem to be a lot of uncertainity in the PA field at the moment. It just doesn't seem like the right time to train to become a PA with all of the uncertainty surrounding it. I may wait for a few more years till their role in the NHS becomes clearer.
I think you are making a sensible choice. Good luck with whatever you end up doing! PS - I was almost put off the graduate entry programme thinking I would never get in, but here I am!
Thank you., For this.. So concerning! A beautiful, Very large Hospital is very close to my home. This Hospital is Closing Down! 😮 Being New in the U.K., I’ve Noticed there are Soo few Private and NHS Emergency Facilities., Every Town, And Village needs to have its own 24/7 Emergency Services, they Don’t! I’m absolutely surprised by this, as There’s a Shortage of Beds, And medical Facilities! NHS what are you Doing? When is THE NHS going to build more Training Hospitals for Nurses, Doctors and Physios? Etc. 😮 THIS is a Vital and Key point missing to Facilitate ongoing Doctors Training, ABSOLUTELY appalling!
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school? also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team. both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals. infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay. why is no one talking about this? plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb? Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you for speaking out about this important issue. The appalling increase of Never Events as a result of PAs is terrifying. Raising awareness of this issue is not bullying. 'Some' PAs are entirely overconfident, which is dangerous. It's a scary illustration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
I dont think it is fair to say never events are a result of PA's. The highest causes of never events last year were listed as wrong site procedure (139)/ retained foreign body post procedure (50)/ wrong implant (25)/ missed nasogastric tube (18) etc Many health care professionals including Dr's are involved in these Never events
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession. like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you. way to go. clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf PA's complete a 2 year masters degree and their undergraduate degree doesn't even have to be science based. It takes 10+ years to become a GP, with additional years study for specialisms. I fully stand by my comment, especially where human lives, rather than inflated egos and/or insecurities, are at stake.
@@reesee-dh5bf Evidence: The NHS had 282 Never Events in 23/24 data. The UK has 376,000 docs = 0.07% There have been 12 Never Events linked to PA's in Scotland. Scotland has *143* PA's = 8.39% PA ratio is x100 more Never Events based on the Scottish data. PA's are putting lives at very serious risk of harm. www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Provisional-publication-NE-1-April-31-January-2024.pdf hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2024-01-17/debates/bde42233-6731-4370-96db-6836666abbab/DraftAnaesthesiaAssociatesAndPhysicianAssociatesOrder2024#:~:text=A%20freedom%20of%20information%20request,in%20Scottish%20health%20authority%20areas.&text=fact%20is%20that%20the%20associates,qualifications%20or%20expertise%20as%20doctors
Thanks for highlighting what we’re all thinking Sophie (speaking as a GP who assessed a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetic presenting in DKA in the Emergency Department today who had been seen by a PA who had totally disregarded their highly obvious symptoms several weeks earlier!!)
Brilliant video 👏 As a GP registrar I worked along side PA’s who although lovely people aren’t qualified to be seeing the patients independently like they were, and then they knock on my door asking me to sign prescriptions for patients they have seen. I don’t have time to re-review their patient and decide if this prescription is appropriate. Physician assistants may have a role on wards, joining on ward rounds and showing observation charts and drug charts to the doctors and taking bloods and then writing discharge summaries. They do not have a role independently seeing patients and definitely not working in GP practices seeing undifferentiated patients behind closed doors. Comments above have mentioned how they are great at taking the ‘simple cases’ and leaving the complex cases to a doctor, but i argue there are very rarely ‘simple’ cases. A a sore throat can be an oropharyngeal cancer, reflux can be oesophageal cancer, cystitis can be lichen sclerosis etc If you didn’t study the zebra’s at medical school you won’t look for them and things will get missed. Stopping the expansion of PA’s is in the interest of patient safety.
Dr Sophie can you provide research data/ literature evidence where patient safety was at risk because of PAs being in practice ? In addition there is lot of literature out there where patients are aware of rile of PAs and the care which PA provides, especially in USA and Canada. Also PAs can prescribe and order imaging. They don’t merely draw bloods or take histories. I think there is a scope to educate within medical profession about role of PAs.
Hi Sophie I 100% agree that Dr's need pay restoration ASAP. However, I think the wider issues of a training competition is not directly due to the PA role. If the PA role did not exist all these issues will not disappear. I think there are entirely valid points especially around scope of practice and patient safety. However, these are all things the GMC has stated they are working with all stakeholders to achieve the best outcome. I think conversation has become hostile on social media and the latest action by the BMA to release a scope of practice out of their remit - without consulting any stakeholders is very questionable. The difference in pay is unfair and needs to be resolved. All health care professionals support junior doctors. However the conversation around PA's has become toxic - implying all PA's are 'dangerous' is unfair. Some PA's have been working in the same department for 10+ years and are contributing everyday to providing a high quality of care for patients and are appreciated by their doctor colleagues and supervisors (despite significant backlash many dr's have spoken in support of the role). As well as highlighting all the reasons it doesn't work - there are a copious amount of cases where it is working. I agree regulation is necessary for patient safety - which the GMC hopes with be completed by the end of this year. This will ensure PA's are held accountable for their actions. I don't really understand the argument of 'blurring the lines' as most patients do not even know what a GMC number is - they have confirmed associate professional will have an A before - so other HCP's are aware of the role. PA's are not a subitution for Dr's. However, as the growing healthcare needs of the population increasing - PA's can help to ease the workload of Dr's and help to contribute to providing a high-quality of care - this is already occurring in the UK (demonstrated by several studies). It has also been successful in the US. The valid concerns of Dr's should be addressed - the GMC has said this is imperative that everyone is included in the conversation. However, actively putting down the profession through comparing to Dr's training is not helpful. PA's are not meant to be doctors. They have a specific training - although criticised has led to the development of excellent PA's who are actively helping patients and colleagues on a daily basis. They should not be undervalued. I hope Dr's are treated alot better by the government. However, I think PAs have a valuable contribution to make to the NHS. Regulation will allow for more public awareness of the role and its limitations. I don't think scaremongering is the way forward. The NHS is a sum of its parts - Dr's, nurses, admin staff, ACPs, PA's etc all have a contribution to make. As a PA student - the negativity has affected me. Simply due to the fact that I have chosen to train in a role with the best of intentions, to help contribute to delivering of patient care, entirely aware of the limitations. Other allied health roles have said they have received backlash such as the development of nurse practitioners. However, currently are working incredibly well in the healthcare system. Whilst on placement a consultant geriatrician said when she started her training many Dr's were against the speciality as there thought it was taking over other areas of medicines - however she pointed out that over time the value is understood. She said within medicine itself there is toxicity within specialities - I think more respect for all colleagues is important. Every one has a part to play - the regulation by GMC is a good step forward - I find some opinions are put out just to put down the role rather than provide solutions of how Dr's and PA's can work well. I have seen PA's + Dr's working incredibly well together and providing a high quality of patient care. Through regulation - the main concern of patient safety will be addressed. Additional several Dr's have pointed out PA's on wards have increased opportunities for training - as there is someone to stay on the wards. www.pulsetoday.co.uk/letter/letters/letter-gps-need-to-speak-out-against-the-online-abuse-pas-face/ www.birmingham.ac.uk/news-archive/2019/physician-associates-are-an-asset-to-hospital-medical-and-surgical-teams-study-finds www.hee.nhs.uk/our-work/medical-associate-professions/impact-case-studies/physician-associate-role-secondary-care-impact-case-study
As a survivor of contaminated blood I'm terrified of this short sighted petty cost saving con job. The thought of my post HCV and consequent liver transplant and concommitent comlex maintenance regime health being managed by a PA when even qualified GPs are somtimes out of their depth is terrifying tbh. Tax the bloody rich for God's sake, kick the private sector asset stripper out of our NHS, and cancel those rip off PFI contracts.
Dear Sophie I’m so confused now, is your concern about patient safety or about junior doctors not getting jobs? PA’s have good knowledge as they are being very well trained in a very intense course at the GMC standards; and their scientific background gives them the depth and base they need prior to the 2yr Masters program for PA. You should rather speak up about the overseas doctors who are flooding the NHS; they are the real threat to your jobs and patients safety as they haven’t been trained at the standards required in this country, whereas PAs pay an awful lot of money for their studies in this country and they are being trained at the UKs standards just like the doctors trained in the UK
It’s about patient safety. The PA courses are unaccredited, there is no agreed scope of practice, or supervision requirements. We see PAs are replacing doctors, rather than assisting them. Being a doctor is a crazy hard job, there’s a reason it takes years and years, huge financial investment, exams upon exams and strict portfolio requirements. This is simply incomparable to a 2 year course. A previous BSc doesn’t in any way make up for this, but that is not always required anyway. I had a previous BSc before doing medicine so can speak from experience. I do feel bad for PAs stuck in the middle of all this, but it is totally bonkers that thousands of doctors are out of work, whilst many are being replaced with PAs.
PAs need to have 1500 hours at least of clinical placement. Also, it a 2 year postgraduate degree on top of a science undergraduate degree, it is competitive as it may need a ucat score and MMI. It's not fair to say PAs are unsafe compared to doctors as the population sizes are vastly different and the data needs to be standardised for a fair comparison. PAs may not know 'zebra' conditions but they can always refer to a colleague for patients outside of their scope of practice as can doctors and advanced nurse practitioners who also see patients in GP. PAs are therefore well aware of emergency conditions for patient safety purposes. We need to stop scapegoating the whole profession because of one PAs wrongdoing and fear mongering to the public. What should be done is increasing the public's awareness of the profession and the scope of practice to employer as PAs cannot give medication without a prescriber signing off. PAs have been around for decades in other countries and they work, they have also been around in the UK for a fair while however only gained negative attention as of late, because of the potential encroachment of doctors' training due to unclear supervision which the GMC should clear up with regulation.
You can’t ask for help if the issue is in the ‘unknown unknown’ area, only the ‘known unknown’ area. There are many examples of undergraduate degrees that are acceptable for the PA course application, including zoology, botany and even law. You mention people should be made more aware of the scope of practice, where is this agreed? You mention the GMC, but they have made it clear they will not set scope of practice. Supervision is also unclear. Unfortunately, although I do feel sorry for the many brilliant PAs stuck in the middle, doing their best trying to help out patients and the NHS, the role has been expanded and extended without due diligence and patient safety is at risk.
@@DrSophieGPyou are right, the role has been expanded and extended without due diligence in SOME environments - so why not place the focus on what PAs should be doing and reprimanding the organisations responsible for the wrongful expansion? I can’t understand why you think the correct approach is to target the profession as a whole? Have you thought about the blowback this has day to day for PAs just trying to do their jobs? At the end of the day, no one in their right mind wants poor patient outcomes or to work in an unsafe environment, but the onus needs to be placed on the employing institutions for incorrectly using PAs, instead of on the individuals who have spent years of their life training to help the public. That’s the only way helpful change will be able to happen. It’s also worth noting that PAs have been around for over a decade in the UK and so patients could be seeing PAs anywhere on a spectrum of experience - some could have 10 years experience in GP and some could be newly qualified - the same as doctors. So to use the fact that they do a 2 year masters as evidence of their lack of capability is ludicrous.
@@Mimi04933 Unfortunately PAs are really stuck in the middle of all this mess and I really feel sympathy for them. I am really trying to show this is not the fault of PAs, doing their best with good intentions, but a systemic issue, at the fault of senior medical leadership. Experience doesn’t equate to competency though. There’s a reason an Emergency Medicine doctor can’t work in GP and a GP trainee can’t work independently until they have passed through years of training and very difficult exams. The issue is the profession as a whole, the lack of clarity on scope of practice, supervision and regulation is a patient safety concern.
@@DrSophieGP I would have to disagree that PAs are “stuck” in the middle - it appears doctors are hanging them out to dry on purpose. Where is this concern around clinical paramedics who are let loose in primary care after going to uni to be trained only to work on an ambulance? Some would argue this makes them even less qualified than PAs to be seeing routine conditions that they’re not taught about in uni, but no one seems to care about this? They aren’t even taught how to perform routine examinations like breast or DRE, which in recent years had lead to things like missed cancer diagnoses. You also made a clear distinction between Drs and PAs in your comment without highlighting the PA side - trainee GPs need to pass exams to work independently as GPs - PAs do not work independently in primary care, they work under the supervision of a GP throughout their career, no matter how much experience they have. It is also the case that GP surgeries have “preceptorship” years for newly qualified PAs, as a form of further training on the job for those with no primary care experience, or those who have just passed the national licensing exam. I agree that experience is not equal to competency, but in your video you seemed to use the length of the PA degree to call them incompetent compared to doctors as they study for longer. This now seems to contradict your view that experience doesn’t equal competency. I think the important thing to note here is that PAs are not trying to be doctors, but instead, some institutions are putting them in positions to work outside their scope. Ultimately it probably all comes down to the underfunding of the NHS which sometimes leads to the use of PAs, as well as Clinical Pharmacists, Clinical Paramedics and Advanced Nurse Practitioners as cheap labour. I think doctors would have a lot more support from all parties involved if they focused on calling out the root cause of the issue instead for fear mongering the public and degrading another profession. I think there needs to be more of an uprising from PAs on this issue of poor working conditions, but some are too scared to speak up out of fear of losing their jobs. If doctors could put their disdain for the role itself aside and team up with PAs as well as other Allied Health Professionals to address the root cause, I think everyone would get much further in the fight for patient safety.
@@Mimi04933 But the point is how PAs are being used, that they are seeing undifferentiated patients in primary & secondary care without adequate supervision. Doctors have qualifications, very rigorous training and then experience. It’s not one or the other. Other members of the healthcare team have distinct roles, training and regulation, so it’s not right to muddy the debate using ‘whataboutery’. I honestly don’t want to upset PAs, or cause a divide, but patient safety is paramount.
Here in the US, only 2 States don’t allow PAs to practice alone. IN & OH, my State and next door. And in the military, they can practice and proscribe on their own.
I understand the training process is quite different in the US compared to the UK, but I don’t know too much about it. Sounds like they do act to replace doctors though 🤷🏻♀️
@@DrSophieGP You are right. They aren’t Doctors. They’re Physicians’ Assistants! They can treat a wound or spider bite… in Indiana they can’t be ob-gyns! A surgeon can do it all. A GP also can do it all.
@@DrSophieGPthey can but I dont agree with it,they should see delegated cohorts appropriate for their experience. No hosppital or GP should employ PA they cannot supervise and mentor adequately.
I'm a senior ED Reg who saw an unfortunate 50 year old female, previously fit & well who was brought in following a cardiac arrest with Rosc and rearrested, became relatively "stable" after thrombolysis. She is now on ITU. It's absolutely terrifying that this happened and this would not have happened if she had been seen in Majors. I also saw a young man just last week who fell downstairs & complained to the paramedics of midline thoracic spine tenderness & was advised not to go to hospital! Needless to say he presented to us & xr showed unstable #'s & he then wrnt onto have a CT & a spinal surgical review!
Same issue exists in the US, perhaps worse because PA's write scripts think order tests. Also Doctors in the US are leaving the profession because of burnout. The reason is money. Insurance companies and hospitals want to reduce costs. Same thing happin my profession, I am a retired CPA and the State of Ohio awarded licenses to licensed PA'S, i.e. these people just had to send in a check and they were awarded a CPA license even though they never had to take and pass a uniform national exam. Some people say that it's harder than the bar exam. I was livid, lowering the standard lowers the value of what I achieved and cheapens it. I imagine you as a Doctor feel the same way about the PA'S. At the end of the day they are going to do what they want to, regardless of whether it's fair and/or safe for the patients.
They are rolling this project out in Ireland too. PA job adverts in cardio thoracic surgery & internal medicine at the moment. Currently in neurology, oncology, urology & on stroke teams. Major issues with informed consent as patients dont know or realise they're not doctors. Irish system also employs consultants who arent consultants & on the SpR division of IMC register.
Hopefully -otherwise we're on a downhill slope. I think there should be a separate regulator for PA's. Creates a conflict of interest if GMC are responsible for regulating doctors & PA's.
@@DrSophieGPim a PA for 2 yrs and would have done medicine if I was younger BUT this is being totally misreported by media , driven by resentment over pay in BMA and mismanaged by NHS and local trusts.No PA was ever supposed to repace doctors, play doctor or work outside delegated tasks by named consultant.Whats happpened this week with RCGP is a joke after some PAs being 20 yrs in the role almost.After that long they should know more than any junior doc, not a GP but they arent trying to be GPs .
@@scarred10 Experience doesn’t make up for the knowledge gained through medical school and resident doctor years of training, portfolio and exams. There is a reason we do all that. It’s not for fun!
@@DrSophieGP that would be true if the purpose of PAs was to replace a senior doctor which every PA knows is not the case regardless of what some trusts may be doing.I know that I have never met an intern with any more medical knowledge than me, but I learned at least twice as much since working the past 2 yrs, I still study outside work to understand the mechanism behind everything I see the senior docs do and say.I have a great appetite for understanding medicine.That will continue until I retire.
@@scarred10 That’s great that you have an appetite to learn medicine, you could even apply to the graduate entry course and study medicine. Whatever the outcome, I hope things get sorted soon, as it isn’t fair on PAs, doctors, but most importantly, the patients.
Couldn't agree with you more. I think I saw one recently and it was somewhat of a disaster. Nothing personal against whom I saw, perfectly pleasant person, but I recognised their lack of experience and qualification. The Govt needs to rethink its strategy extremely carefully.
It may work very differently in other countries. The UK Health Secretary has called for a review due to the concerns related to the use of PAs in the UK.
@@DrSophieGP and also because of misinformation spread by people like you. The ipsos poll showed positive public outcomes and interactions with PAs. I believe concerns are incidental and a review would be welcomed at looking at these critically as well as the positive contributions and work PAs do.
@ I still am yet to see evidence of any misinformation I have presented. Please stop the obsession with commenting so much on this thread, although it does help boost the algorithm.
@@DrSophieGP sounds good, hopefully more notice and call out the misinformation. You might want to check in with the GMC. your video, ‘evidence’ and reactive comments is all that’s needed. Thank you.
is this another doctor jealous that a PA does 2 years ? A PA knows their limits and is their to help doctors and be utilised by doctors rather then creating a seperate barrier.
Exactly!! It's like comparing apples and oranges and assuming both are citrus fruits just because they are fruits. Doctors and PA'S have somewhat similar roles but totally different roles overall with a doctor having much more knowledge due to more years of training. The problem is NHS not paying doctors enough and thus UK doctors go to US, Canada, Australia etc where they are paid 5-10 times higher. It's not the PA'S fault that a graduate PA makes more than a junior doctor. PA'S are doing their job which they were trained to do at universities, just like doctors are doing after studying at universities. Any sensible person can figure out where the problem is arising from. It's from doctors not getting paid enough under NHS and thus they are butthurt about it.
Physician Assistants is what we call them in the US. They’re fighting tooth and nail to change it to “Associate”. They also like to call themselves “medical providers” and like calling doctors the same making them seem equal. I did not go to “medical provider” school. I have a doctorates degree in medicine. Took me 10 years of training after undergrad school to be able to practice as an attending physician. I would have been scared for the patients had Id been thrown out there after my second year of training.
Yes, I don’t understand how they have the confidence to treat patients with such little training! It took me 13 years training before I was independently managing undifferentiated patients and I was still nervous 😬. I think the false confidence is part of the problem. #DunningKruger
The name is already changed to physician associate, because PAs are not assistant they have autonomy. A new PA graduate and intern doctor share similar knowledge. Ofcourse PAs are medical providers who are trained well to take care of patients. Just like PGY 1,2,3 would grow, PAs grow in their knowledge and clinical skills. If one PA didn’t show competency it doesn’t mean all are incompetent. 😕
@@aishaamjad428 Are you working in the USA? In the UK, PAs are not autonomous and always have to work under the supervision of a doctor (although there is no confirmed rules for how this applies in real life, which is problematic). PAs can not prescribe or order ionising radiation. If PAs had similar knowledge to interns, we might as well scrap the medical degree and get rid of all those pesky years of the medical degree and seemingly never ending exams!
Hi Sophie, I think some more nuanced discussion and questions are needed here. Are 3000 PAs working across the entire UK who are mostly working in GP really causing significant loss of training opportunities for junior doctors who are mostly rotating through hospital? This seems highly unlikely although it’s clear plenty of medical students and junior doctors feel this way. If they want us to be regulated then regulation with the GMC is surely a win, and if we’re focusing on safety which we should be then physician associates do need access to these opportunities too. I find it hard to believe that the numbers we exist in currently is having a significant impact. What’s clear is that the profession is currently being scapegoated for everything doctors are unhappy with. It will incite fear in patients (and division at a very sensitive time for both professions) to tell the public that we cannot be thought of as “medics” simply due to length of training and not being doctors, you can train as a paramedic in two years and attend life threatening emergencies. What do you think we do in those two years of postgraduate training? The undergraduate course length is also 3 years to account for lack of previous degree but you didn’t mention this. The data regarding never events you’re referring to all comes from Scotland unless you have access to more? Please can you provide more information on where, how and by who this data was collected and how much of it there is? We would also need information on access to supervision levels and the role of the supervising doctor who maintains overall clinical responsibility for the patient in these scenarios in order for people to be able to draw balanced conclusions. Many physician associates are working in general practise where all the patients are triaged first by senior GPs who are readily available if requested by patient or needed for input by clinician so difficult to see that we are replacing doctors (particularly in current numbers) or unsafe? Patients want to see doctors but current capacity doesn’t allow for that and demand for minor illness appointments isn’t going anywhere, so difficult to see how we are not needed? Most physician associates are over cautious because we are fully aware that two years of training leaves a lot of unknown unknowns hence the very clear and strict emphasis on working under a GP/consultant, asking for support, and discussing red flags and safety netting well with patients throughout training. Regarding doctors struggling to find work, this is a situation which needs addressing urgently but I think it’s ingenuous to blame physician associates. Interesting statistics posted on doctorsUK Reddit forum the other day, this struggle is in fact due to competition for jobs from the high levels of immigrant doctors we currently have in the UK.
I am not a Physician Associate but very well said. You guys are definitely being bullied and just watching this video and how condescending her tone of voice sounded in 2:03 about your two year training is awful and parts of the video when she rolls her eyes. I'm glad that not all doctors feel this way. I'm glad that you guys are being regulated by non other than the GMC. The facts in this video are all wrong and it'll be very interesting for her to bring in concrete evidence with every point she's mentioned. She's just carrying a story she has heard and spreading false rumours. Firstly, PAs always address themselves as PAs and not doctors and PAs want to be PAs and not doctors. It's so ridiculous for her to say that these PAs are taking your jobs on the wards and all.
PAs are not a profession, they offer absolutely nothing unique to the MDT. They are a tool of a government and are being ushered in against the will of the majority of the medical profession by seriously unscrupulous means in order to pave the way for privatisation.
The undergraduate course that qualifies for a PA masters could be zoology, or even law in some cases, so in no way replaces the 3 years of pre-clinical studies in a medical degree. Even a biomedical science degree isn't comparable. Yes, the Never Events data comes from Scotland, as discussed in the House of Lords debate (link attached in description). The guidelines for PAs working on the ARRS scheme states that they must be seeing undifferentiated patients, so certainly not all triaged by GPs. The point about the unknown unknowns is PAs may not always know when to ask for help. I certainly don't want to stoke division, and as I said in the video, there are loads of fantastic PAs working in the NHS doing their best for patients, but the concern is the lack of clarity on scope of practice, supervision and regulation. The RCGP have now stated they disagree the GMC should be regulating PAs, so even that is still up in the air. Patients have a right to know what is going on. I also mentioned in the video there are many problems with the NHS right now, but this concern over PAs/AAs is just one that many people have no idea about.
@@DrSophieGP You're so condescending in your video. How can PAs not know when to ask for help when that is literally what they're trained to do at Master's level after holding first class and 2:1 BSc degrees?So because someone's studied zoology, they're in capable of escalating a problem that they have been intensely trained to do at Level 7? Just because you want to compare their two year intensive postgraduate degree studying medicine modules to 5 years of medicine for those who want to become doctors? Even doctors need to know when to ask for help regardless of their grade. Again, why are you comparing a totally different profession to doctors when they are not doctors? Physios in the ward also escalate a problem to doctors on the ward when they notice a patient's sats deteriorating for example. HCAs, Nurses do too so if it is not to bully another profession because you're comparing their roles and falsely accused them of taking doctor jobs just because you're trying to fit them into that box so that the gullible can hate on them as well. Good that the same GMC is no longer for doctors but for PAs and AAs, that way, the doctors who hate them will be forced to come to terms with PAs and AAs who are here to stay. So ridiculous. Why should PAs not see undifferentiated diagnosis when they are trained to actually do that. If you're trained to see undifferentiated diagnosis in medical school that qualifies you to do this without supervision, and PAs are trained to see undifferentiated diagnosis in their two year training that qualifies them to do so but under supervision as it is for their profession then why can't they as well? Again, your problem is that you're trying to fit them into the doctor box when they're not doctors. And who is depriving patients of their rights to know? Every PA and health care professional introduce themselves by name and role so patients also know who is treating them. Just because you mentioned that there are fantastic PAs in your video doesn't erase the fact that you're also condescending towards their training with your tone of voice, eye rolling as if because they're not doctors, they're not qualified to do their job that they're actually qualified to do. The RCGP can disagree with GMC but good luck stopping the GMC. By the way, as you mentioned that a PA who misdiagnosed a patient that led to her death and scapegoating a whole PA profession, don't forget to mention the fit and healthy 46 year old postman who also died after London doctors failed to spot a blood cot just as was the case with the PA. So why is the doctor profession not being scapegoated for this too. Utter ridiculous, I guess doctors with longer years of training aren't perfect either.
But don’t clinical specialised nurses do the same ? 😂 They still see patients, manage, refer and prescribe by themselves… PAs and Doctors are meant to be a team and mutually decide on management and referrals. Just as cardiac physiologists help the cardiologists. Also If it’s proven to work in another country I don’t understand why it is so much of a worry in the UK. 😵💫 Or could it be simply jealousy/ anger exactly for the same points mentioned… Patents safety? Doesn’t the doctor make the decision as PAs work to support the doctor under the doctor? Perhaps if some doctors can go back would actually become PAs instead 🤔 Also to become PA is not 2 years is 5 and the undergraduate course most likely contains the same modules as in medicine and the 2yrs PA course is most likely more intense training. And in terms of money doctors get double the salary of a PA (Gp doctor vs PA in a GP practice) exactly because of the experience and specialising the GP doctor goes through…. Newly qualified PA earns more than Junior because Junior is still training but a PA is a PA and there is not any progression. I just think this is so unprofessional (I am not a PA neither a Doctor I am just sharing my thoughts and trying to understand) I am fine to be seen by a PA because In my understanding the PA should report it to the doctor and the doctor should approve….. Anyway in this country we are never seen by the specialist anyway mainly by nurses 🤷🏻♀️
- Clinical specialised nursing have gone through approved training, exams and regulation, unlike PAs. - PAs bring nothing unique to the MDT, unlike every other member. - It works completely differently in the USA. - Any undergraduate course does not in any way make up for the MBBS course. I did the graduate entry program and the only benefit to any previous degree is that you have learnt how to learn. The PAs who have gone onto do a medical degree have confirmed there is no comparison at all. - PAs are already trying to work for a progression, calling themselves senior PAs, consultant PAs etc. - It is not unprofessional to call out concerns regarding patient safety. - In the UK, it is a false statement to say "we are never seen by a specialist".
Scope of practice is key. This will be defined by registering bodies and of course needed. There is a need for recognised courses that meet GMC set requirements, many courses dont just require a science degreee but a prior qualification in crtain Allied Healthcare and be registered/practicing for a minimum number of years, nurses and ODPs are 2 roles that do the 2 years of training on top of their prior professional training and experience.. PAs should not replace medics as a cheap alternative. Junior doctors work under guidance of registrars and consultants, shouldnt PAs be a part of that hierarchy. We also have roles such as Surgical Care Practioners who do carry out surgical procedures when signed off by their supervising surgical consultant, but are not doctors, most come from nursing and ODP roles prior. Nurse Practioners in GP surgeries see patients and many can prescribe. Every ED visitor is triaged usuall by a nurse before seeing a doctor - a first point of contact that determines how that patient will progress through an ED, imo a massively responsible role and one in which there have been many many never events with inaccurate scoring. Roles evolve and the rate of medical advances is expotential and it puts so much strain on doctors that delegation is needed but I agree that this needs to be done for the right reasons and in the right way.
@@DrSophieGP I was curious about whether and how you would reply. You are absolutely correct in asserting that people should ask questions pertinant to the provision of their care. There is also a need not to be alarmist! The GMC have said they wont set scope of practive but with the addtional context of, to quote "_*We won't determine scope of practice for AAs and PAs*_ ....... _*just as we don’t determine it for doctors*_. We know that NHS England, employer bodies and royal colleges have begun looking at how AA and PA scope of practice may develop over time". As stated at the launch of the consultancy process on this subject matter. Legislated for by government already. I specifically mentioned educational standards, delegtion, inferred an issue with referral but you havent picked up on these or have chosen not to? Do you have misgivings about the GMC's position? If you do we must do better!!. To continue the GMC will - > set the standards of patient care and professional behaviours PAs and AAs need to meet > set the outcomes and standards that students qualifying from PA and AA courses must meet to achieve registration, and approve the curricula that courses must deliver > check who is eligible to work as a PA or AA in the UK and that they continue to meet the professional standards we set throughout their careers > give guidance and advice to help PAs and AAs understand what’s expected of them > investigate where there are concerns that patient safety, or the public’s confidence in PAs and AAs, may be at risk, and take action if needed Maybe adding the following link to references and further reading can assist with nuancing a less clickbait balanced tone to the information and to help reassure concerned viewers of this channel and patients that may be worried, highlighting that the GMC has and is addressing concerns mentioned. www.gmc-uk.org/news/news-archive/an-update-preparing-for-regulation-of-physician-associates-and-anaesthesia-associates As an aside another concerning issues facing the delivery of service is the onging creep of restriction of student doctors' direct involvement in patient care in comparison to previous generations, predominantly due to concerns of litigation. This has resulted in delayed progress to competance and levels of clinical independence. Day 1 as an FY1 was daunting enough in the past as Im sure you would agree, it is significantly moreso now. The average ages of a reg attaining specialist and/or consultant roles has remained the same but the depth of experience has lessened, also impacted by work time directives (not a bad thing of but does need to be taken in to consideration). There has, for a time, been an unoffocial hierarchy developing within consultant 'circles', consultants consulting consultants like that of a reg. With this in mind it is certainly worth a video to suggest to patients looking at the numbers, not percentages, of procedures perfromed by a consultant (and their team), pertinant to the particular patient, how recently, with straighforward, understandable and accurate stats on outcomes - facilitating effective informed consent. I do apologies for the length of this but I feel that it was important enough to bother. In an era of masses of information available to people it is essential to create awareness of issues, as you have done, but to update commentary also eg GMC addressed issues of education standards where 'distance learning' for such a role in a multi-dsiciplinary team would not be acceptable or accepted, in general or by esteemed colleagues in the profession.
@@rocksock7999 I didn’t respond to all your points because I responded many times in lots of other comments if you want to have a read further down. The GMC are being sued by the BMA for their role in this so the link to the GMC guidance isn’t very helpful. The GMC are absolutely failing the patients with their inability to give clarity on what the role of PA is. We’ve seen this yesterday with the GMC themselves confirming that PAs study medicine, ‘only the length and of course content’ was different. To then hours later turn around and say that was incorrect and in fact PAs do not study medicine. If the GMC don’t understand the role of PAs, how on earth is of any member of the public going to understand? Or PAs, or doctors for that matter 🤷🏻♀️.
@@DrSophieGP Point taken on previous replies, l didnt look too far beyond initial demoralised junior medics and their greener far away fields thinking - I understand their reasoning but not sure that many are as informed on choosing better work conditions in other countries rather than generally better lifestyles with the adventure abroad - Different debate for a different day, Canada eg is not all as whistles and bells as some think (mine own greener field at one time) and the sun in Perth will always make life that bit more positive. I dont expect additional answers as I suspect there could be answers already given and I havent deep dived in to whats already posted. But on the off chance, have you worked with PAs? Its not a loaded question! My experience is that they work in a team, under supervision as I would expect of juniors, different levels of expectation!! I would expect them to be clear on their role, scope, and clarity in their early patient interaction. If attention is brought to some lets pretend it could well become a formal disciplinary matter, havent been there yet but then it is a clear message given to all day dot. As with all the people worked with they know what is expected. I have had concern about FY1s, judgement rather than knowledge, indeed more senior colleagues on an occasion and it would be same for any staff where ultimately the buck stops here. I get that this isnt the concern you have per sé, that you feel the GMC need to project a clearer message - I feel there is personal responibility to keep things clear within what is proposed. I have watched PAs (anaesthesia) deliver and also train junior medics in the administration of regional blocks exceptionally well, better than I at one time albeit there werent fancy sonosites in my days. My personal experiences have been largely positive, trusted as much as any other but with the personal assessment of what when where and who. If I was convinced that there isnt a dollop of snobbery in a some of the attitudes seen towards PAs, that there are precedents in other roles, SCPs, various nurse practioners etc, that clinical experience is built so an experienced PA and FY1 I dont necessarily rank on a straight line (5yr at Uni v eg the knarly ED Sister 10yrs at the coalface + 2 postgrad one example Im not sure id butt heads with especially on their patch), I will never ignore a nurses clinical opinion, a schoolboy error made once, and they're not 5yrs a medhead, PAs are not 2 yrs at postgrad and off you go + as a mentioned, have significant previous experience etc etc..... then maybe Id shout a bit louder around GMC. BMA at odds with GMA wouldnt be a first!! Representation including job protectionsim is a primary function and something I happen to agree with. PA's are here and for good as an addition not a cheap replacement - I havent seen much beyond the usual sort of purveyor of future doom stating that this will happen. If its tried on me I would refuse, probably using scope of practice and an ability to effectively supervise or delegate supervision. I wont peak for GP practices not being a GP but I wouldnt mind being a fly on the wall for a butting heads with a chain superpractice manager - GPs refuse to consult or supervise under reasonable grounds (how did you feel when a practice nurse became a thing, or would now trust in comparison, or could we be back to not wanting to share a registation body? Ive not heard too much grumbling by nurses about nursing associates who are tbh I wouldnt necessarily spot the difference in the scrub role tbh). While I have been long winded, not as much as usual and not as coherant as id like, phone isnt as much fun to type and build an argument on even when at a loose end, this issue is not near the top 5 or even 10 most pressing risks to patient safety. Ive mentioned a few, another one would be to get our own profession to early recognition and treatment of sepsis. If PAs somehow manage to put a dent in that 50000 annual average they'd have a net positive on the service. How after 5 years training so many of the preventable deaths in that 50k are missed, all that training, to recognise.... infection or has that been delegated to nursing and EWS charts, where's their clinical head at if chart cheat sheets dont work. Worth a video - When to ask 'could it be sepsis' for patients. Done right clicks would be up there!! Sip and Stay policy, highlighting that many not such a killer but seriously not very nice!!
The British public do not have a clue how serious this is. PAs / AAs do not have the medical science competence to see and treat patients - yet they are. There are many cases where patients have died as a result of patients being treated by PAs. You have done the right thing trying to protect patients. It is simple for the public, how much do you value your health and that of your family health. If you do - make sure you know who you are being seen by.
I think they are getting wind of it because Labour are 20 points a head in the polls. Starmer and Co have not said anything, just keep mum and it double digits for them. People are fed up of the tories and want the NHS to be properly funded but labour hates the NHS.
You don’t get onto the training places because the NHS is flooded with overseas trained doctors PAs are not replacing doctors, they have a different role; Doctors trained in the UK have been leaving for other countries in the past due to higher pay; so you should ask the government for higher pay and have a go about the overseas doctors flooding the NHS and replacing the doctors trained in the UK
PAs are indeed replacing doctors, we have clear evidence of this. Have you noticed the doctor strikes? We have been asking for higher pay. I haven’t seen evidence that overseas doctors have been a cause of lack of training places for UK graduates.
My possible explanation of the non-medical profession expansion is the political need of the government and NHS management. As we know, a fully trained doctor requires money and time. Politicians cannot wait such years of training because they need to show the results ASAP to win the next election. As a result, politicians rather increase such non-medical professions than invest in training posts for doctors. As the NHS management, doctors in general are annoying people. Hard to deal with, annoyingly raise concerns and issues, etc... Probably, the worst part for the management is that doctors are a vital part of healthcare so they have to listen and follow what doctors say. Think about it. They think they are at the top of the hierarchy but they still need to listen and follow what those annoying people say. From the management perspective, Increasing PAs and alternative doctors' roles are favorable because then, they can easily control those annoying people. What about patient safety??? I don't think they care. ya, sure they always say "Patient safety is the highest priority, but funnily speaking they do not take any responsibility. For them, they just point their fingers toward "Oh! this bad doctor or PA did it." In conclusion, this recent increase in PAs and alternative professions is the rotten masterpiece of NHS management and politicians.
Already happening in my doctors i saw physian didn't kniw tiil checked ny practice website but difference is i know all gps at my practice which know whos gp my sisters partner is gp there my sister s nurse but thus be torys plan fill gap as torys who destroyed it slowly trying privatize it mean labour wont be much different as want increase private sector in nhs was new labour who introduced privatization
A major point Missing, Soo many Pharmaceuticals-can have MAJOR Side Effects which can Mimic soo many diseases, on presentation in an Emergency or even in a cumulative manner! I’m sure and hoping this 2 year degreed Course, will emphasis this!
@@DrSophieGPits 6 months pharmacology before clinical placement ,I personally had done ot all before at undergrad level and never used most of the material in practice since.From working alongside interns and SHOs,I know as much about the subject as most and details are always checked against online resources or ward pharmacist when needed kust like the junior docs do who like us all learn mostly on the job after graduation.
@@scarred10 I’ve since learned all the courses are different (as I don’t think accredited, with no consensus of syllabus?) @adam_skeen on Twitter was a PA and now a med student said: “Many PA courses are severely deficient in pharmacology and prescribing content - mine included.” Others may have the topic well covered, but hard to do pharmacology if you haven’t had chance to cover physiology & anatomy sufficiently.
@@DrSophieGPits correct the syllabi are not standardised since theres no legally overseeing body like the GMC(up until last week I believe,they will be standardised now)but the faculty of PAs out of the RCP has issued a recommended one for over a decade.We certainly studied anatomy from dissection but physiology was embedded in clinical medicine rather than a separate subject,you were expected to study the recommended resources outside class time.our pharma in Ireland was certainly enough theoretical content(I did several semesters of drug synthesis and design at undergrad)but no prescribing classes.PAs would need to do a prescribers course if the legislation to allow that ever goes through.In Ireland we only have 1 course and 70 working PAs so theres no disrespect from junior docs.They all treat me like a doctor but I refuse any task I havent trained to do or feel is outside my experience I have no problem admitting that.
Could you share data on this; specifically showing that PAs have poor patient putcomes compared to MDs. That would make more impact policy wise. Otherwise this is just person opinion and to some degree gateleeping medical practice.
Hi, i'm a nurse in Australia and have a graduate certificate in nursing i'm thinking about either doing a master's in nursing or your PA master in Ireland/England, i do NOT mean any desrespect but just wanting to ask your advices, do if you don't mind sharing your opinion please do! Thank you 😊PS: in Australia we are registered as nurses and can prescribe as NP's
Well done on a really comprehensive video Sophie, you covered all the main bases in an easy to follow way. And btw is this unscripted?! Even with some notes this is seriously impressive! Some long ass takes in such a natural way without any hesitations 🤯
Thank you! That really means a lot coming from you especially! I had headings to cover, but otherwise it was unscripted. I’d been researching for months, so knew the topic well. I don’t ever do scripted videos, it just doesn’t work for me, but it does mean I put a lot of work in upfront 🤪
PA school teaches you to ask for help! PAs don’t just do a two year course, without having a BSc - 3 sometimes 4 year course. Many medical schools only do 3 years of theory with placements staring in year 4 & 5. Stop misleading people to think PAs have just done a 2 year course. You are saying they aren’t doctors yet all you do is compare them. 8:15 you’ve just described your F1 colleagues who have done the equivalent amount of time in university. They see patients and gave but had that many examinations. It seems you think PAs are trying to be consultants? Cause what kind of unnecessary comparison are you making?! And have you bothered to explain that all juniors work under consultants - the consultant makes the decision mostly in the hospital during WR. The junior team typically do the jobs. Get your facts right. Nothing but a biased agenda here.
Ask any PAs who have gone on to become doctors, they will tell you the training is worlds apart and yes I do compare them, because PAs are being used to replace doctors. I’m not going to comment any further. It is a tricky situation and I’ve said many times, this is not the fault of hard working PAs, but rather the senior staff who have set up this new role without any proper evidence or planning. I wish you well in the future.
This feels like a broad assumption than someone who isn’t a doctor is immediately incapable. Someone with 3yrs science and often healthcare background and 2 years in INTENSE GENERALIST MEDICAL TRAINING, are trusted with patients because the literature supports them as safe practitioners. Pay and scope ate the governments responsibly
What evidence do you have that the 2 year unaccredited courses, many with 100% pass rate, are ‘intense generalist medical training’? We also know much of the positive research about PAs was written by someone with huge undeclared DOI.
If a PA with a BSc applied for medical training or even nursing, do you think they'd get compensations for modules taken in the Bsc or would they have to complete the whole course. The undergrad is irrelevant.
@@AM-ff5qi I did the graduate entry program and those courses are full of people with lots of relevant experience, like paramedics, but they don’t get to skip anything. Ultimately, the skills and knowledge required for a medical degree aren’t comparable to anything else.
That's my point. I did nursing but I wouldnt expect to get credit & exemptions if I opted to study medicine later. I went back & did social science - & even though I did psychology, sociology & social policy in nursing - there was no credit given for my B.Soc.Sc. I couldnt walk straight into a social work masters either with just a nursing degree.
How elitist! I am a Band 7 Clinical Pharmacist who works under the supervision of a GP due to my role, I work within my competency just like Physician Associate. This nonsense of 'replacing GP's is utterly sad. Even after introducing myself and my title, my patients still refer to me as their doctor, and I have to stop them to correct them. They NEED to be regulated to ensure there is a level of consistency across the border to prevent under qualified PAs from working outside of their competencies. The NHS are digging themselves a grave by allowing non medics to join the profession, it should ONLY be accessible if students have a science background with a certain level of experience. I can't watch this GP any more, it's sad that elitist attitudes act as barriers. There are some fantastic 'could be medics' but due to financial strain, lack of connection etc they are not given the opportunity. I agree there does need to be regulations put in place, but negative Nancy, stop with your attitude and outlook. #supportPAs #GMCregulation
PAs can't work to their competency, as no-one knows what that competency is without agreed scope of practice. Financial strain and lack of connection are not reasons to create poor versions of doctors, but instead highlights how we need to work on increasing accessibility to medical school for those who want to but struggle to.
I have seen PAs acting inappropriately. Most are very good, but the blurring of the lines is dangerous for patient safety. They are not doctors... they are not even close.
So you’ve seen PAs acting inappropriately. Not to say it isn’t true but it’s likely to have further context, and I’m sure there are doctors acting inappropriately also. There will always be competent and incompetent clinicians. ‘Most PAs are good’ and is that a bad thing? surely not. Competent PAs have worked hard, developed their knowledge within their teams and scope and go into work daily to do their best, as I’m sure other professions also do. To state a good PA as a problem is clear indication of insecurity in my opinion. I would happily see a good competent regulated PA. I wouldn’t generalise PAs as good or bad, that just misinforms the public. I think a constructive view and debate is important. And though it’s easy to be in one camp or the other, doctors misleading the public on this issue is creating more harm. Thousands of patients come across PAs and most feel well served and likely to question the integrity of opposing doctors who misinform. Hopefully the Leng review helps clear the air.
By the way, there are medical schools, at least one in Canada that is only 3 years as well as unsafe doctors who have put patients at risk and have killed patients too.
Yes, although ironically there are many GPs out of work now due to government cuts and the ARRS scheme. Crazy! Patients want to see GPs and GPs want to see patients. ☹️
You're so condescending at 2:03. Rolling your eyes, the tone of your voice and all. So glad that the GMC will be regulating at 1:07 "these non-medics, they're not doctors" as you call them. As if PAs want to be doctors. It's ridiculous you keep spelling out the number of years doctors do vs PAs as if PAs are doctors when they're not. By the way, you should get your facts right before doing a video because Physician Associates was the original name before it became Physician Assistants and back to Physician Associates again. You say glorified title. Of course, they should have their title protected. How can you say a Master's degree studying medical modules is easy? So ridiculous. You can at least make your point by respecting "these non-medics, they're not doctors" profession. You should bring your concrete evidence to the flawed points you raised. And more examples of how PAs have caused deaths. If you have a problem with PAs being paid higher, then leave your doctor job, study the MSc course for two years and then get that pay. When you realise that their pay doesn't go any higher and that doctors are on a totally different pay body and climb up significantly higher than PAs, then may be doctors will stay in their lane, stop comparing their pay to a profession that is not even a threat to their prestigious degree and just get on with their jobs as they're putting patients at risk, wasting time bullying PAs instead of working together for patient safety while the NHS is in crisis. Utter ridiculous
The President of the FPA was found to be a medical school reject. The countless social media posts from PAs believing they went to medical school, boasting about being on par with highly skilled doctors, says otherwise.
Not sure why you have quoted me stating they are "not doctors" - this is just a statement of fact. An exam rate with continuous 100% pass rate suggests the exam is not very difficult. There are many more examples of how PAs have caused deaths, but I don't think it is helpful to list them all, many have made headlines. Doctors, or anyone who has been to medical school for any period of time, are not allowed to apply for the PA training, (unsure why this is, seems odd). As I say in the video, this is not about bullying, it is about patient safety. Read all the comments from the doctors who are confirming day to day concerns with how PAs are taking opportunities for doctors to train, replacing doctors and putting patient safety at risk.
@@DrSophieGP I didn't make a mistake quoting you. You're the one saying that they are taking doctor jobs and being condescending stating "these non medics, they're not doctors". It is important you don't leave out the part where you state that they're non-medics when they actually are. They're not doctors anyway and don't claim to be one. You're the one comparing "non doctors" training to doctors training when they're not doctors. And where did you get this information about a 100% pass rate? It better be from more than one school/source you've taken this from because I know that the PANE exam that they sit is not a 100% pass rate. And there are many examples of how doctors have caused death by far and I think it'll be helpful to list a lot more than the same story that you've mentioned. If it is about patient safety then you will stop bullying and condescending another profession by saying their exam is easy with 100% pass rate. Eager to see enough 100% pass rates to prove your point and work with the profession as part of the MDT to focus on patient safety as I am sure that patient safety is at risk when one profession is focussed on bullying another instead of working together towards an ultimate goal which is patient safety as you say. PAs aren't taking opportunities from doctors to train, the PAs in their training have also earned their right to be there as they too need training to qualify and be excellent PAs so that they're not scapegoated when they make the same kind of mistakes that doctors can also make. So just as Doctors need training, PAs need training too . The NHS is not for doctors alone. By the way, you mean some doctors "and not doctors" comments on taking training.
I think the role has got about 5 years left at most before its binned. Patients dont want them and increasingly doctors do not want to work with them or supervise them, especially the newer generation of consultants coming through now who are overwhelmingy anti-PA. You can't be a physician associate when none of the physicians want to associate with you.
Well are chance 4th july vote torys out god help us they get back in could be end nhs not saying labour be any better but just don't think could be any worse nean loon nhs dentist people ripping own teeth out victirian values
Thank you for speaking out about this. I recently found out that the ''GP'' I thought I was seeing the last two times I sought medical attention from my practice was in fact a PA. He blurted out to me he's a PA after I suggested he orders a scan for my leg but he had to explain he doesn't have the power to do that and needs to consult the GP. I assumed PA was a junior doctor or something along those lines, but when I googled PA soon after I left I was flabbergasted. Your are absolutely right that their title is misleading and I'm certain there are probably hundreds of patients who are fully unaware their ''doctor'' is actually someone with a 2:1 in biology (best case scenario) and a 2 year masters masquerading as physician.
To be honest, your story sounds made up and just a target on PAs. Firstly, so many medical schools also accept people with non-science degrees including music now. Having a degree shows one is capable of studying and grasping and applying knowledge. GIve these people the credit they're due.
@@ThePushUKLifestyle It's not made up at all, but go off I guess it it makes you feel better. The issue is that it's not made clear from the beginning that these people are NOT doctors / GPs, and a lot of people including myself had no clue who we were seeing. I doubt a 'PA' degree is transferable or recognised anywhere else besides the UK
Sophie The logic goes like this - There is NO chef in every McDonald - with automation, computers, AI, teenagers off the street can be trained to turn out perfect burgers to feed the masses. In fact, in the military, 18 yo kids are trained to be Medical Corpmen and are the first responders on the battle lines. If so, the logic goes, armed with computers and AI, prompts, folks can be trained to attend to the medical needs of the masses. You only need a few trained chefs in specialty restaurants for the rich and a few specialty trained doctors for the private hospitals for the rich.
That is the goal - with AI . Even Doctors are now trained with automated Electronic Health Records throwing up prompts for Quality Assurance, Hierarchical Coding, and far more detailed concepts than they would routinely have brought up. Like I said - for the masses, PAs will do You want Drs you pay in Private settings
Another shitty video bullying Physician associates and missing out half of the information on the role its self🤦. 1. There are two ways to become a physician associate the postgraduate which is 2 years and the undergraduate degree which is a integrated 4 years degree which I am going to be doing where for the first two years of the degree, I will be studying alongside med students doing the same modules and exams, then the last 2 years Id progress into basically the postgrad 2 years which is a very intense degree, which some would say is harder than most of medicine, as med students have 5 years to learn all that knowledge and where Pa's have 2 years to learn a large proportion of that knowledge like having to learning 800 conditions in a year and how to diagnose them, although med students do get taught way more still, and thats why they are a DOCTOR and a Pa is just a physician associate, 2. To even get onto a PA degree its HIGHLY competitive, you need NHS experience like myself with 6 years experience in pharmacy and 1 year experience as a student nurse, you need a science related degree to get on to the degree, they cant get onti the degree with a german degree, so like biomedical which is similar to what Med students study minus the clinical skills, and thats why Universitys ask for the NHS experience also, for the undergraduate, you need the same sciences at A level as you would if you were going to study medicine to become a doctor. 3. they are there to help take the work load of doctors by dealing with the less enhanced cases freeing up doctors who have more enhanced knowledge than PA's to deal with the more enhanced and difficult cases, they are also there to help deliver continuity of care to patients on wards as junior doctors rotate through specialities every 3-4 months. Yes mistakes happen like in every profession including doctors and nurses where errors have lead to deaths, and yes thats horrible, but one or two rare cases in many situations a Physician associate has helped save many lives isnt justification to get rid of the role or bully the profession. Atm there is a real crisis and the whole reason these associate professions have been instigated like NURSING ASSOCIATE which are not nurses but can do alot of what a nurse can do, and nurses are happy for the help because it seems like the majority of nurses have the PATIENT as first priority NOT EGO or Money. And thats what this about MONEY locum doctors who are paid £100 an hour or more are loosing money because GPs and hospitals sometimea dont need a doctor as they have them on site but someone who can give a helping hand to the doctors ans are cheaper for the TAX PAYER as a locum PA gets between £45-£60 hour. The BMA bullying this profession reminds me of 1948 when the NHS was created, and the BMA tried at every opportunity to stop the creation of it, and NOT for patient safety or helping patients but because of the millions of pounds theyd loose from a free healthcare system, they didnt care that ppl at that time werw dying from basic things like infections and colds whixh are treated for free now to everyone, they just cared about the money, now its the same situations over 50 years later DOCTORS DRIVEN BY NOTHING BUT MONEY, POWER, AND EGO
I think it’s helpful to have a civil discussion about this. I do feel sad that there are so many brilliant PAs out there trying their best, but the system just hasn’t been set up to support them and ensure patient safety. In no way do I want to ‘bully’ anyone. I’ll go through your points to help try and clarify why many of us are so worried: 1. You do agree med students get taught much more and so then once qualified, doctors have to go through many more rotations, exams and additional qualifications in order to specialise, which is why it is a problem that PAs are replacing doctors on rotas and in primary care. 2. Many of the PA courses accept non-science undergraduate degrees, eg Swansea proudly admit you can apply with a law degree. The others accept science degrees including topics like zoology, which offers little help with medicine. Even biomedical science is not comparable, you can ask the doctors who also have a biomed degree. I did the graduate entry programme which was 75% made up of science graduates; none of them breezed through medicine! 3. PAs are supposed to help with the workload of doctors, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be what is happening on the ground and, in fact, they are often taking doctors opportunities for training and increasing workload pressures: www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-survey-finds-working-with-pas-is-increasing-doctors-workloads 4. if this was about money, doctors like me would be rubbing our hands in glee at the prospect of a two-tier system, where the rich pay privately to see a doctor and those that cannot afford see a non-doctor. There are genuine concerns that the role of PAs has been rolled out without due diligence for scope of practice, correct registration, supervision agreements and protection of junior doctor training.
PAs are a waste of taxpayer money. Patients dont want them, doctors dont want to have to work with them, the only people that are pushing them are the corrupt Tory govt and the NHS who get cheap labour which they can use as they see fit without any limitations on their scope of practice.
I just feel like if you are gonna have a civil discussion about this then there has to be the full correct information of the role and be a balanced argument instead of just crapping all over the role, missing out relevent information. And also I feel like doctors are not trying to fix things with the role they are trying to change the role entirely or get rid of the role all together. 1. Yes doctors have way more training and thats why they should always be dealing with the more enhanced cases, but physician associates do rotate through many specialities when qualified, same as doctors until they decide where theyd like to remain, although yes they are generalists, so they can decide to work in a different speciality, they are on the same rotas as doctors because they are there to support doctors and sometimes they dont need more doctors but more assistance with less enhanced diagnoses to free up their time for cases more suited to their enhanced knowledge, which is the same case with nursing associates on nurses rotas. 2. I agree yes maybe years ago they would take students from them type of degrees but if your keeping up to date, that isnt the case now, you need a science related degree and NHS experience or they wont even look at your application, and I dont think anyone breezes through medicine, but a biomedical degree, nurses degree, or pharmacy degree would give you an advantage, and as for the undergraduate integrated masters PA programme you cant say that isnt relevent as Id be studying medicine for two years along side med students training to be doctors before joining the postgraduates in the last two years. and as for the 2 year post graduate degree, as you know most of what you learn in medicine is medical research which doesnt benefit any doctor clinically unless your thinking of going into research, the whole reason the goverment has announced this year that medicine will now be 4 years not 5 years for undergraduate as they are reducing the amount of unrelevent information you learn. What Physician associates get taught is 2 years of clinical knowledge and yes they are still dont have the knowlege a doctor has but they advanced healthcare professionals (band 7) with the same knowledge as a advanced clinical practitioner nurse or pharmacist who dont replace doctors either but take the pressure of doctors. 3. I agree there are issues with how the role was rolled out and what they can and cant do and doctors taking responsibility for the PA's actions and thats why regulation will be a good thing for the profession but doctors like yourself and the BMA are against that, and yes it should be the GMC who regulate them as the profession is a associate profession of the doctor profession, same as nursing associates with nurses, who are regulated like nurses with the nursinf and midwifery council. 4. The role its self has proved to be a successful role in united states for the last 70 years, where they are now called physician associates too not assistants as thats a insult to the knowledge PA's bring to the table, and they havent replaced doctors in the states? Yes there has been rare instances where GPs have used them as doctors which isnt on at all but this is why regulation is soooò important so they have a clear scope of practice. 5. They dont take learning opportunities away from doctors, atm there are only 3000 Pa's in the UK, so thats a overexageration, and Ive seen first hand as a student nurse, PA's freeing up junior doctors time for more learning opportunities because PA's can deal with most of massive workload which has been forced upon junior doctors which is by no means fair on junior doctors. What Ive seen is the BMA who pushed forward to restrict the amount of medical places and restrict the amount of places for specialities, which makes no sense but is by any means the fault of the Physician Associate profession, there is a current crisis atm and the profession to any doctor focused on patient care a saving grace
@@coreysmith1982 1. It makes no sense that PAs are on the doctors rota 'to support doctors', as they are clearly replacing a doctor on that rota, not as well as. We have evidence PAs do not free up doctors time, but in fact make the job harder. 2. I am keeping up to date with PA entry requirements, here, for example is a link to Swansea website which shows you need C at GCSE Maths & English (no mention of science) and either a 2:2 healthcare related degree, or a 2:1 in a NON-healthcare related degree (with some work experience). www.swansea.ac.uk/postgraduate/taught/medicine/physician-associate-studies-mpas/#entry-requirements=is-expanded . I don't understand about your comment about medical research I'm afraid, it is certainly not true at all that "most of what you learn in medicine is medical research." It is also false that the gov have announced medicine will now be 4 years. 3. BMA are pro-regulation, but like other allied health professionals such as physios, they have their own regulator. The GMC was set up to protect doctors from those seeking to muddy the role. 4. Whatever is happening in the USA has no bearing on here in the UK, but I understand they do have more of an assistant role over there. 5. Again, no idea where you get the information that the BMA want to restrict the amount of medical places and speciality places; this is the antitithesis of the truth. Junior doctors are telling us they are taking away learning opportunities (read some of the comments on this video) - we need to listen and we need to act. I really am sorry that PAs are stuck in the middle of all this, when they are just trying their best, muddling their way through without agreed scope, supervision arrangements and regulation, but we need to protect patient safety; this is paramount.
1. Cant say there is evidence and then have no actual evidence to back up what your saying, but yh your most likely right to an extent because the lack of regulation (which is thankfully coming into place) prevents them from being able to independantly prescribe, but when that does come into place like a advanced clinical practitioner pharmacist, nurse, or paramedic they will be even more of valuable resource to doctors and patients alike. 2. your information is completely out of date, if you were keeping up to date you would see on the NHS workforce plan, that the goverment has announced that the undergraduate degree to medicine will be shortened from 5 to 4 years, this is the link to that information👍🏻👌www.gov.uk/government/news/expansion-of-medical-school-places-to-be-accelerated-to-next-year, they are reducing the amount of medical research and other irrelevent information in order for med students to become doctors faster something which my university has let me know about as am studying medicine for 2 years as apart of my undergraduate degree for PA👍🏻, and what you state about the postgraduate degree is just not true, they do not accept students with a law degree, or german degree or.... you cant just lie to state a point, and you say they say SOME experience, they dont say some, and it is HIGHLY competitive, so a student with more NHS experience will always be favoured over someone with none or little experience. Also, the BMA did restrict the amount of places for med students, this is common knowledge, and this information is in the following link👍🏻www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748#:~:text=BMA%20meeting%3A%20Doctors%20vote%20to%20limit%20number%20of%20medical%20students,-BMJ%202008%3B%20337&text=Delegates%20at%20the%20annual%20BMA,on%20opening%20new%20medical%20schools. Thankfully the goverment are now increasing the spaces to med school which am glad as the NHS needs more doctors. You say that the role isnt beneficial to patients or the healthcare team, but thats simply faulse, quantitative and qualitative data from a reliable resource Ive attached which shows how wrong you are www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6359738/ You say that the USA has no bearing in the UK? But it shows another healthcare system proving the success of the PA role which has been around for 70 years, and no they dont do more of an assistant role, they are advanced healthcare professionals who do alot more than they do in the UK and that is the whole reason they have changed the name in the USA from Physician assistant to Physician associate, because calling them assistants is an insult to them, so please do your research before talking about something you have no idea about. Also, of course the GMC should be regulating the profession as its associate profession of the doctor profession🤦♂️ same as the nursing associate profession which is regulated the same as nurses with the NMC. Anyway, Ive enjoyed this discussion😂 but no matter what you or the BMA say Physician associates are here to stay and am glad to be apart of the role👌
Sophie,you have not done your research on PAs and they are not doctor replacements. If theyre used for that,they will make mistakes especially if unsupervised.
I’ve done a huge amount of research. They are not SUPPOSED to be doctors’ replacements, but that is exactly how they are being used by many trusts and GP practices up and down the country. This is why today the Royal College of Physicians has voted for all five motions put forward on the issue.
@@scarred10 Yes, on the whole this is true. There are instances, such as the illegal prescribing of controlled drugs by PAs in Calderdale & Huddersfield trust, where the PAs should also carry blame for going beyond agreed scope.
@@DrSophieGP that isnt a scope issue which will vary within the law .that is entirely illegal regardless of scope.The supervision must have been nonexistent for that ro happen,our ward pharmacist would call that immediately if she saw it.
Thank you so much for making this Informative video! Hopefully the general public will be more educated with this important issue
👍🏻
Final Year UK medical student. Me and my friends have just been randomised for our foundation training allocation (not based on academic merit) to our 6th-18th choice deaneries. We can't even pick which rotations we get if we are ranked low. Whilst PAs get to freely chose where they go? They have been taking our spots on placement where I occasionally get turned away because there is already a PA student shadowing a doctor. Honestly its just shocking- they have a huge amount of confidence, and it is really worrying, I am worried they will start telling me what to do when they start becoming more senior rather than every healthcare professional sticking to their own role and working as part of the MDT. Thank you for making this. Its about time someone stood up!
They have been taking your spot? If they are in training and already with a doctor before you get there, why not find your own spot? If they're a student then they have the right to be there as they're focused on their own training and have earned the right to be where they are which is in their lane. Best to stop comparing yourselves to people who aren't even in the same course as you. The bullying is so disgusting. As if the NHS runs on doctors alone.
@@ThePushUKLifestyleusually the nurses shadow the nurses and doctors shadow doctors. When PA students are not allocated a spot on their timetable that a medical student is, I would say it is unfair. If you are so salty about doctors why are you shadowing them? Why not shadow a PA? How am I bullying anyone? You said stick to your own role, so how about the shadow an actual PA instead and stop stepping out of line.
@@ThePushUKLifestyleyour just salty because you are a useless PA 😂
We need to protect junior doctor training. PAs can shadow fellow PAs.
@@DrSophieGP So why make a video about PAs when you don't even understand that PAs role is to work under a doctor's supervision. Yeah and PA training needs protection just as much as you think junior doctors' training need too so do nurses and all health care professionals and if you think PAs can shadow PAs then until PAs are granted prescription rights and all to work without doctors since you think they should shadow PAs, then PAs can continue to shadow the consultants who like them more than junior doctors anyway
Very educational. Thank you for this video will be sharing far and wide, Such an important issue the British public deserve the truth about PA's.
Thank you. Yes, I was frustrated how little the public know, so keen to build awareness.
Nobody in medicine thinks they are doctors, the trusts should be delegating duties and appropriately supervising them as was always sipposed to be the case
@@scarred10 Yes, this is what should be happening, but sadly hadn’t been the case. Things may change with today’s RCP vote.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
Congratulations on an excellent clear video explaining the very real perils of PAs. We in the BSIR British society of interventional radiology voted for a halt in recruitment of PAs in our recent AGM. We also pointed out some of the problems in our recent article in Clinical radiology. There are only 3 PAs in our specialty so far, but there are more posts advertised.......
There does seem to be a push from somewhere to steam ahead despite concerns. Thanks for taking the time to give this positive feedback, it means a lot to know it resonates across different specialties.
Thanks for speaking up about this terrible government policy. It's a patient safety issue. You are absolutely right to be speaking up.
Thank you!
Bang on the money. I’m heading to Australia - this government simply does not care about doctors and therefore patients. Truly saddening
It is so sad we are losing brilliant doctors. I just have to hope the tide will turn. Good luck to you!
You don’t see every nurse on minimum wage doing one to Australia do you 😂. Nice option to have and I don’t blame you. Good luck
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
Being in the Authoritarian health system in Australia be ready for the rubbish you think UK is bad
Might not be much better here, sorry to say. We'll love to have you though.
Very brave of you to be so frank. But the assault on the NHS must be talked about openly. Imagine taking a flight and realising a baggage handler is in the captain's seat.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf First of all I'm not a doctor, reesee-dh5bf, totally real named person you. I'm a concerned future patient. And PAs are not doctors, they are cosplaying arseclowns. I know they're too thick to even understand they're just poison pills introduced by those who want to finish off the NHS in this country. But their IQ appears to improve when it comes to self-interest, so listen to this.
If, god forbid, their project to destroy the NHS ever comes to fruition and we end up with a two-tier health system in this country, do you think PAs will go on enjoying their 50k+ a year salary? Or do you think they'll be the first to be chucked under the bus? The difference is, at least the junior doctors can go overseas. There's no payday for PAs in the Gold Coast; they have no real training recognised internationally (hence the cosplay). The ones making big money from all this already don't care about human lives such that they'd go and replace real doctors with fake doctors. Do you think they'll treat fake doctors with respect? (hence the arseclown)
Not a great comparison. A better metaphor would be a Cessna pilot vs a 737 pilot- the Cessna pilot is fine when flying a small propeller plane, but when they are being allowed to attempt flying a 737 they are potentially catastrophic.
@@hmrobert7016 There is no simpler model of a human body
Well said Sophie! Thanks for speaking out.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Brilliant. We need to spread this so people know what they are facing
Yes, I think it’s important to raise public awareness of the issue.
There are some places in London where PAs have literally hijacked the deptt and would make Rota for doctors. Most unfortunate thing is when they are backed up by some registrars and consultants as they believe PA stay in the deptt for years while junior doctors keep rotating so priority is given to PAs.
@@faisalkhanswati3521 I didn’t even get round to mentioning the rotating issue!
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Hi, USA PA is here trying to understand the problem in the UK health system. So you are saying that PAs replacing MDs but they can't even prescribe or send referrals for imaging. It seems like even if PAs really wanted to replace MDs they still couldn't do so as they can`t fully function as providers with such limitations. In the USA PAs can prescribe and send referrals, but they still require MD supervision. I work in a hospital setting and our health system heavily relies on APPs. I see patients for surgical consults and I spend way more time than MD with patients on the floor managing their post-op course, I do consult my attendings for more complicated patients and other specialties as needed, as I`m aware of my scope of practice and limitations. I have been called many names: " , doctor wanna be, nurse, nurse assistant", but I always make it clear that I a PA, although I could care less about my title. I call myself a patient assistant, once I`m on the floor rounding, I also feed them, move them, and clean them as needed to help my nurses and nurse assistants. Patients see it all and they appreciate it and often they don`t care about the title when they see good care. I also earned the trust of my surgeons, who rely on my evaluation and clinical judgment, but of course, the final decision regarding surgical intervention is made by the surgeon. However, there were a few cases when a surgeon thought that surgery could be done electively, but I insisted and the patient listened to me (since I spent way more time with her and saw the progression of the disease, perhaps, she also developed some trust in me despite the fact that I wasn't a surgeon), and I was right, she did require surgery at the admission, and the patient was very happy with her decision and was very grateful for my input. I would never diminish the work that MDs have done, I don`t compete with them, nor I wanna be them, I collaborate with them, so patients get the best healthcare. I have seen terrible doctors and incredibly gifted PAs/NPs and also bad PAs and brilliant MDs. Let`s put it this way, my attending will trust my clinical evaluation more than any hospitalist MD with their gazillion years of training. Also, it was very hard to get to PA school (7 years ago, even harder now) 2000 applicants for 50 spots, 3.8 and higher, previous clinical experience (preferably EMT, paramedics, medical assistant), at least 100h, shadowing, participating in research. Medical schools in do not require even half of what PA schools require, PA school was hard as hell, none of our tests had 100% passing scores,even got shingles from the stress I went through. I graduated with honors ( English is also my second language). Perhaps, the educational system is different in our countries, PAs in require a minimal 1500h of clinical experience prior to practicing medicine, and of course, I continue to learn while at the job even took me 6 years in total to get my degree, and with 5 years on the job, I still will be more knowledgeable than MD who just graduated.
Thanks for sharing, it’s really interesting to hear how things are for PAs in the USA. I understand your training is completely different and I think the UK version is trying to be a watered down version, but with similar responsibilities. Sounds like you’re doing an amazing job 👍🏻
their training is not completely different. It's the same as in UK. It's just that they have prescription rights, and people don't highlight some bad fuckups done by PAs while working in the media. I'm sure doctors cause more fuckups than all of the PAs combined in UK. It's a part of the job. People make mistakes sometimes.
@ doctors, despite all their years and years of ongoing training & exams, do make mistakes; employing vastly lesser trained people are therefore highly likely to make more mistakes. In the US, PAs are required to accumulate extensive clinical experience hours before even applying to a PA course, and have a well stipulated scope of practice.
@@DrSophieGP Vastly lesser trained people.? PA'S work under their scope of practice they were trained in, they go to universities to study, not on TH-cam. They are highly skilled professionals and are a part of the healthcare team just like nurses and physiotherapists. The problem is doctors like you who compare PA's to MD's. PA'S are not claiming to be doctors and have no intention to do so. They do their work but junior doctors are pissed off that PA'S make more money than them. That's where the jealousy arises from. PA'S work under physicians ; it's literally a job that has existed for years.
And FYI medical errors by Doctors is the third leading cause of death in the hospitals. So that says a lot about the errors that can happen when you're dealing with complex bodies of human beings.
@@RAO.NUTRITION You're absolutely right. When Drs boast of years of training, the more reason we should not allow them to make any mistakes at all if they're wanting to bring down PAs as PAs are safe due to the fact that patient cases are being discussed with another so therefore not rushed.
Fantastic piece of content here Sophie, so so important that patients are aware of what is happening in their NHS and creating simple, straightforward explanations like this is the only way that they will know. Very big thank you from a JD here knowing that our consultant colleagues like yourself are aware and fighting on our side for the betterment of patient safety! 🙌
This really means a lot to me, thank you for commenting. I really wanted to produce something balanced and factual. Absolutely support JDs and hope we can keep you in the NHS! 🤞🏻
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf I, having worked in one of the largest PA employing trusts in the UK, can tell you a few things.
There is nothing personal about my comments about PAs. Like every profession- there are some who are extremely nice and some who are not. I treat them with respect no matter who they are. My comments are not ill informed nor misguided, having seen many unsafe practices take place at my trust when PAs work outside their remit. The problem is that a 2 year degree which is not medically trained to the same level, is doing the same work as doctors up to registrar level! And regarding less recognition and respect- this is completely untrue given that PAs work in their specialty for many years and know the system and seniors much better than rotational trainees. Given that PAs knew when they applied at the age of 21 (minimum) they should have known there was minimal career progression and could have easily applied to GEM is a problem I cannot solve. Now the pay is the cherry on top. A doctor would have to work for at least 5 years (after 5 years of medical school)- passing multiple exams, jumping through portfolio hoops, getting thrown across the country in order to earn THE SAME AMOUNT as their “so called assistant”.
So maybe you should stop insinuating all doctors are biased and ill informed and take a second to think “maybe doctors are frustrated because there are safety concerns for patients and they can’t get the training needed to give better care for patients” or will you follow your “herd” mentality and not think laterally for at least one second.
I am a band 8a Advanced clinical practitioner in cardiology central London. I am NOT a doctor and DO NOT want to be a doctor. Physician associates work under a consultant the same way as I do. They have a restricted scope of practice as I do and it’s their responsibility to liaise with their consultant when necessary. I am sick of hearing PAs replace doctors, replace GPs.. who is allowing this? when are we going to talk about the responsibility of consultants and senior doctors agreeing to have PA under their wing without challenging what they do. Why do GP surgeries employ PAs at all then? Cheap labour left seeing undifferentiated patients on their own? If I was a PA I would refuse and challenge this.
We should be harassing the government and GMC for more regulation, regulation, regulation if we are so worried about patient safety. Is the GMC acting quickly enough? If not, we should be protesting outside the GMC headquarters instead creating fear in the general public who have zero insight on hospital reality and will therefore be extremely influenced by any youtube/social media video telling them that they may be in danger. Let’s get things moving in the real world rather than producing more virtual social media content from the comfort of our own homes.
The GMC are literally being taken to court about this. We are doing all we can, but we need public awareness too. Your years of accredited training, exams, CPD, nationally agreed scope of practice and regulation are completely different to the Wild West of PAs. We are absolutely calling out the senior clinicians and leaders who have allowed the PA train to run wild, if you watched my video you would see that I put the blame exactly there and away from individual PA. I suspect you didn’t watch all the video.
@@DrSophieGPGP/consultant responsibility is mentioned only once, for 2 seconds(7:50) when talking about horrible headlines “the PA should have been supervised properly by a doctor” that’s all? There is a narrative of fear and imminent danger depicted throughout. The summary is : PA are expensive and unsafe. There is a conspiracy theory thrown out at the end about the government trying to create an NHS with non medics and private sector with doctors.
I agree with one thing, PAs should not rotate and should instead work on the same medical/surgical ward where they would become part of the permanent team and gain valuable insight on the day to day management of patients in that particular ward.
Good luck to all the PAs out there.
@@DrSophieGPthe gmc regulation is going ahead in december, it wont be stopped now, thats accepted.However, they arent setting scope of practise which I assumed was part of it, they want the royal colleges to do that but those colleges have no legal power to enforce that.Thats part of anaesthetist united case against GMC
@@scarred10 I’m not convinced the GMC regulation will go ahead. We will have to wait and see.
@@DrSophieGP Wouldnt you agree it would be a good thing?The specifics of regulation is on the GMC site but doesnt cover scope which I was surprised about.
Very informative and clearly explained. It's a shame that priority is being given to building less standards of care for the masses with posts like the PA's and AA's. Now I know better.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you very much for bringing these unqualified people to my attention. I will make sure that no AA or PA does anything to me that they are not qualified to do, should I ever find myself in hospital.
How will you know if an AA is qualified to look after you or a junior doctor?
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf : its from a doctor. clearly these guys are in it together. Cooked up story.
Very clear explanation for the general public well done. DOI I have been a GP for 30 years and feel this is very dangerous.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
I’m in the USA and have seen a PA as my primary care for 20yrs. No way you see a doctor here. Not sure if it’s the same, but PA here can prescribe medication, xray, CT. If she is not sure she will set you up with the over seeing Dr. My PA has saved my life when I had a lung collapse. I feel confident in her ability. But again, not sure how much it’s different in the UK! 🤠💕
Thank you for sharing your experiences from the States! I believe there are quite a few differences in prior experience and training for PAs in the USA. I still wonder why anyone needs to go through the effort of training to be a doctor though, if a PA can do everything a doctor can do 🤷🏻♀️
There isn't a difference as the curriculum in the UK is the same as the US. US PAs brought the profession to the UK 20 years ago. The only reason why UK PAs don't prescribe is there needs to first be regulation which is happening in December by the same body that regulates Drs which is amazing.
Glad you appreciate PAs out there. Only a few Drs in the UK come on social media as a last stunt to deliberately mislead the public about PAs as they find them a threat to their profession and are trying to prevent regulation of PAs by the GMC this December but this will die down as regulation is definitely taking place and even the chief medical officer welcomes PAs as well
I’m glad to see efforts to educate others about the vital role of Physician Associates. The training of US PAs serves as the inspiration for the UK’s model, and the standards are the same. UK PAs aren’t allowed to prescribe because they’re not a regulated profession but as of today 13/12/24, they’re now regulated by the GMC which is a significant milestone for their profession.
For anyone to claim that PAs are unqualified or lack the necessary training to perform their roles is simply untrue. Regulation by the GMC underscores the profession’s competence and importance. If PAs were unsafe, they would not meet the criteria for regulation. Moreover, regulation enhances patient safety by holding PAs to strict professional standards. Like Drs, PAs will require a GMC license to practice in the UK henceforth and no PA would jeopardise their license by acting irresponsibly.
Regulation also paves the way for future prescribing rights. While PAs currently consult with their supervising Drs for prescriptions, they’re trained to recommend appropriate medications based on patient needs.
Although the US PAs are like 4 decades ahead in terms of practice rights, UK PAs are steadily advancing as their profession gains greater recognition.
The Physician Associate title is now protected, reflecting the respect the GMC and other Drs/MPs and so on have for them. Attempts to demean PAs by calling them “assistants” other than associates are baseless and do not diminish their qualifications, expertise, or standing in the healthcare system. In the UK, Physician’s assistants don’t hold an MSc degree and aren’t trained to carry out the roles of Physician Associates but they too as with all MDTs, clinical and non-clinical staff all play a vital role in the NHS and should all be respected equally, regardless of their ranking which is what a lot of Drs in this campaign have forgotten.
PAs remain committed to their patients, and their professionalism throughout this campaign speaks louder than uninformed opinions!
this is ridiculous. thanks for sharing your concerns. 👏🏽
This is a brilliant summary of the problem with PAs in healthcare, it is such a good explanation of what the concerns and issues are regarding Physician Associates (originally called Physician Assistants) Worth a watch.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this complex and scary situation! 👏👏👏
Thank you!
Its not scary if managed correctly which is being done in every other country except UK apparently.Holland for eg have full prescribing rights and fully regulated and is newer role than in Uk.Germany the same not to mention US where theyre virtually independant practitioners in Several states.The courses are no different to the UK educational model.
Thank you for your time and invaluable summary on one of the hottest healthcare topics of the year. It looks like unregulated markets either drive away doctors or raise the bar too high for the entry into specialty training. Nothing new. What's disconcertingly strange is that, a highly centralised system designed this model of care. One expects this to happen in insurance-based systems, such as in most European healthcare systems. Heading towards privatisation is a fact in many systems, but role fragmenting with little to no regulation is a bit steep.
My first NHS role was made redundant 12 years ago. I could never get back in (sorry, long story) having originally trained overseas. Then Brexit came. This was another straw on the camel's back. And now we're where we are. But let's hope it can only get better after those 'never events' which shook many walks of life. Wishing everyone good luck and a win-win by the end this settles. Kind regards, Andreea
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf not sure I understand your point but I wrote a response letter in the HSJ years ago and may have expressed a similar thought when it came, at the time, about discussions on public health specialists, given that they all have various backgrounds, two registers, etc. 'Specialism' stems out of a primary degree. All PA are welcome to join the ranks, it's just that routes will never match an identical value stream of a doctor. Doctors grow up with a high and acute awareness of the risk and uncertainties they face in practice. Responsibilities are huge.
As a doctor I am not the one who holds a whole cake. And I never took a slice of a cake which I held responsibility for, without putting the community I served first. I am privileged to have gained a very highly competitive entry into the medical school at the time I wanted to study medicine. I still stand tall yet reflect on my whole career veering with a humble and deep contemplation.
Wishing every single PA to achieve a fulfilling career
@@andreeasteriu2073 "Doctors grow up with a high and acute awareness of the risk and uncertainties they face in practice. Responsibilities are huge"
and why is that you think a PA cannot be brought around to the same level of awareness. is it because PAs didnt do the same 5-6yrs of medical school. sure, PAs have 2yrs of medical training. but who says that learning for PA stops after PA school. that literally is just the beginning.
in the world of such advanced technology, free information, creative online teaching platforms (think medical youtubers vids such as osmosis, medical ninja, armando) geekymedics. even traditional medical textbooks like oxford handbook that is freely aviable to anyone in a capitalist market. what is there stopping PAs from eventually learning and accumulating same level of knowledge / sense of responsibility as a medical doctor? why does eveyone seem to think that growth for PAs is capped at PA school and PAs are not capable of learning anything past PA school. whereas medical students keep growing post medical school and retain the ability to learn and continue growth.
having said all tht you sound like a sensible person. thank you for sharing your views.
This is what we have been waiting for! A simple explanation of what is happening in the NHS the beginnings of a two tier health system that favours people who can afford private healthcare. The public need to be made aware of what is happening and this will hopefully help them to understand at the same time why doctors are so disillusioned and disheartened. We need to look after our doctors or we will lose them.
I hope people understand how brave you have been creating this video.
Thank you
Thank you, hoping it will help a little with public awareness.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
So much for the vaulted government health care system. If only there were people warning against it....
Thank you for the insightful video. It should be played in GP / OP waiting rooms across the country. It's a shame that the historically reputable NHS is being devalued and deskilled. It's abhorrent that the 'be kind' rule from the GMC was as a consequence of doctors like yourself highlighting the legitimate patient safety concerns around PAs. The disturbing thing is neither the GMC, Royal Colleges or Trusts have any idea of what PAs should be doing and this has been exploited where we're now seeing PAs in tertiary units taking referrals. It's demoralising.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thanks for raising awareness Sophie, the public deserves honesty and the right to choose and without this type of content are loved ones and families are at a huge risk.
❤️
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Dr Sophie, as i am considering applying for the Physician Associate masters degree what would the perfect way for someone like me looking forward for this career path and also what should I realistically do to make the working environment suitable for workers and patients? Since i am not a weak person but not really a leader like a proper doctor and if i was supervised to some degree then i agree to that.
I really would recommend considering a different career path, due to the current uncertainty about the role. You don’t have to be a leader to be a doctor!
Hey definitely go for the Physician Associate career. You will be regulated by the GMC, well respected and from what I hear, a good work life balance without needing to be the sole responsible person for your patient as your supervising Dr would be. You can work in any specialty including surgery and get a good pay. Don't like a few social media Drs influence your decision otherwise as remember you do not want to be a doctor. Not every one wants that
A valid perspective for sure
To become a GP, one needs MINIMUM 5 YEARS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL AND A MINIMUM 5 YEARS TRAINING AFTER QUALIFYING. So enter medical school at age 18, MINIMUM age before you become a GP, is 28, with tons of knowledge, skills and experience.
And what has the number of years for doctors have anything to do with PAs who aren't doctors? PAs only need the two years because they're not and do not want to be doctors while they work alongside doctors because they're the ones with the number of years training.
@@ThePushUKLifestylethen why are they doing illegal procedures???? Can’t wait till the government turn on these useless PAs they are the thickest people I’ve met. Rejected from medicine and probably from their parents too lol
@@ThePushUKLifestyle But the whole point is that they are in fact taking roles meant for doctors, replacing them on rotas, in clinics, in surgery and in GP practices.
@@DrSophieGP and that's why their profession was created. To fit into those rotas in clinics, surgeries and GP practices but not as doctors or to replace doctors but as PAs that they're trained to be. You mislead gullible people by saying they're taking roles meant for doctors and replacing them. It's been stated severally that PAs DO NOT REPLACE doctors. PAs are medics, like it or not and are now part of the MDT just like any other health care profession in the NHS. And you don't have to be so condescending about their years of training. Stop trying to fit them into the doctor role and falsely accusing them of taking doctor jobs when in fact, they're hired to be PAs and into a PA role which includes GPs, surgeries, clinics as they are trained to be.
@@ThePushUKLifestyleYour not invited to my birthday party
In the US the hospitals are full of PAs and NPs, they diagnose and prescribe medications. It’s cheaper for hospitals.
I understand the training is quite different for PAs in the USA
@@DrSophieGP it’s a two year program.
@@DrSophieGPno it's not. It's the same as in Uk.
@@RAO.NUTRITION In the US, PAs are required to accumulate extensive clinical experience hours before even applying to a PA course, and have a well stipulated scope of practice.
@@DrSophieGP an allied health science degree is required for both US and UK to study Msc.physician associate studies
And the course outline is also the same. The only difference being that US PA'S have prescription rights and can order ionizing radiation. In terms of knowledge and skills you won't find any difference.
IMG here,got a GMC registration after plab2 and more than 7 yrs experience outside uk have been applying since one year in NHS ,no job yet after hundreds of applications.i wouldnt have stepped into plab had i known about the condition of the NHS.almost 2 Years of hard work into this pathway drains you out when there is no outcome
So sorry 😔
Oh God it is scary. Thanks for sharing this important information.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
I'm well aware of this and have twice had receptionists try to pass them off to me as a doctor. Not realising themselves maybe that they're not the same thing.
This is not good and has to be paused. It's more fully med school trained doctors that we need.
This is just going to lead to a two tier system.
Yes, it’s really important patients are made aware of who they are seeing!
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
What’s your opinion of having nurse practitioners or paramedic practitioners in primary care?
They aren’t as contentious because paramedics and nurses have a wealth of knowledge. PAs do not. Also if a PA makes a mistake, you can’t hold them to account. Case in point, the PA that misdiagnosed Emily Chesterson is still locuming in London because she didn’t want to work under close supervision.
@@TheMoo1995what!! That’s mental!!
@@TheMoo1995 regulation will occur by then of the year - so they will be held accountable for their actions. There are also PA's with a wealth of knowledge over 10+ years of experience which shouldnt be devalued simply based on a title. The scope of practice does need to be clear but they shouldnt be undervalued.
@@Sonia-ig9fj I highly doubt that GMC regulation will bring accountability. It is likely that they will either persecute the Supervising clinician.
As for wealth of knowledge, If a physiotherapist/Nurse or someone of another healthcare background retrained as a PA, then their valuable contribution will be from their respective healthcare background. However, a PA genuinely adds nothing to the team that a doctor can't add. That is why their role should be supernumerary.
Furthermore, PAs are going to get shafted by the government. It is only a matter of time before the funding dries up, mistakes will add up because PAs are forced into roles they are not qualified for and the media will crucify them. It may be a good time to be a PA but if I was a smart person, I would know that it's only a matter of time before the government turns against them.
@@TheMoo1995 I believe regulation will lea d to accountability as once regulated, any complaints will be investigation and the PA may lose their GMC registration.
I think there is a definitely a place for PA's in the NHS, especially with increasing population and workload, I don't think that will change. There are areas where PA's have worked very well with Dr's. There are also several highly competent PA's who are contributing to providing a high quality of care. Alot needs to be sorted out - especially junior Dr pay restoration. I guess time will tell.
Well spoken. It needs to be said. It would be wrong to blame the people involved. However I am sad to hear how many politicians condemn the BMA for speaking the truth. It is almost as if they care more about hurt feelings than about patient safety
Yes, the BMA are leading the way in this, whilst most of the medical royal colleges and the government are dithering.
@@DrSophieGP I don't think the way they are leading the way is entirely appropriate. It is definitely important for the valuable + experienced voices of Dr's to be heard. A very biased approach from the BMA regarding scope of practice from a trade union.
NHS chief executive noted -
“All parts of the NHS share a desire to improve patient safety and we know that effective team-work is essential to that objective. It is surprising to learn therefore that the BMA does not seem to have engaged with the Faculty of Physician Associates in developing this union guidance about a different staff group.
"It is to be hoped that further BMA contributions to this important discussion are now carried out differently, and employers across the NHS and MAPs themselves would appreciate the opportunity to play a part in this.”
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@DrSophieGPthe BMA is a lobby group it puts doctor interests above everything.You cannot trust any such biased group for accurate unvested appraisal.
This is interesting debate. As a senior radiology professional this reminds me of reading the stories whilst at university about how radiologists didn't like the fact that radiographers pushed for learning how to read and interpret x-rays independently. This is now common place in the profession. I myself am a sonographer I independently report on GP requested ultrasound scans as well obstetrics and gyne scans. Is this not just the start of a major dynamic change in your profession?
I think the key issues is that the qualifications are not credited, PAs & AAs do not bring unique skills to the MDT, and they are replacing doctors on rotas and in GP.
Don't believe what this "Dr" says. Ask her to bring proof that PA courses in the UK aren't regulated before she carries on as she's playing a stunt.
*GASP* an ACTUAL NHS Doctor being naughty and speaking the truth?!?!
Honestly, thank you so much for being a brave Doctor and exposing these dangerous people who are being hired! I appreciate it!!!
Thanks. I don’t think they are dangerous people, but they are being put in difficult positions, encouraged by seniors to be involved in job roles way beyond their competence. I appreciate most of them are just trying their best. The public deserve to be aware what is going on!
@@DrSophieGP an example of the negative connotation above through putting the role down in your video - the idea all PA's are dangerous is extremely damaging and unfair. Imagine if all consultants said GP's are 'dangerous people' due to a variation in training. It is not fair.
Public awareness and putting down a profession at the same time doesn't cancel the latter out. After regulation I am hoping there will be more awareness + limitations of the PA role, without the need to put an entire profession down
🤞
@@Sonia-ig9fj This is why I replied to this comment to make it clear they are not ‘dangerous people’ and I also stated the same in the video.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
@@DrSophieGPyou arent stressing it enough then as evidenced from the replies supporting you.
You have done a great job ! But things won’t change unless we come on the street.
I think building public awareness is a really important start.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
You are exactly right doc. I also want to be an anisthesia associate but after hearing your professional advice i think ACP IS BETTER
It’s a shame the misinformation in this video has had such an effect on you. By all means go for a carer that best suits you. Most carers go through developmental stages. But be aware of biased opinions and misinformation. Some Doctors have made it quite clear this is the beginning of the battle against medical associate professions, so PA and AA today, others tomorrow.
I would encourage you to do a constructive research and just be aware of the misinformation out there.
In 5 or 10years time where will all these professions and healthcare infrastructure be?
In my view, doctor, PA, AA, ANP, PP, ACP, nurse, doctor. All reasonable carer choices in their own right, but there will always be ups and downs, people who are have supportive views and also the opposite. All said, wish you the best of luck.
@Dronkytee i reall appreciate your supporting mannar but there's one thing that you have mentioned in your opinion about beginning a battle between doctor and PA WHILE IN THE MOST OF VIDEOS THAT HAVE MADE BY DOCTORS THEY SAID THAT BECAUSE OF THE LACK ANALYSIS SKILL OF THE PA MANY PATIANTS HAVE TO FACE DIFFERENT INCONVENIENCE.WHY ARE THIS CONTRAINS ACTUALLY DEVELOPED IN THE MEDICAL FIELD WHERE SOME DOCTOR SAID THEY DON'T LIKE PA OTHER SAYS NO IT'S GOOD TO GIVE A MEANINGFUL SERVICE TO THE PEOPLE.BY THE DRONKYTEE I ALSO LIKE YOUR UK AND MOREOVER THIS JOB of a PA....
@@ronykkj72 my point exactly. There are a lot of opinions that aren’t supported by constructive facts.
PAs are trained to take histories, diagnose, manage, supervised by doctors. There are PAs and doctors that work well together and surely there will be lapses no matter which profession, but I find most of these videos and opinions generalise based on isolated incidents, shared perceptions, and polarised views.
Hence I suggested doing some constructive research. You may well find the AA role isn’t for you and that’s fine too.
I just think there is a lot of misguided opinions, perception and misinformation out there atm.
I am particularly not for PA, AA, ANP or doctor. I just feel there is a lot of polarisation and misinformation out there and it’s worth being mindful of this.
Please do point out what I said that is misinformation? Do substantiate any of your claims with data / evidence.
@@DrSophieGP DOC ACCORDING TO YOU Choosing A carreer in ANISTHESIA ASSOCIATE GOOD OR BAD . I MEAN IN THE REAL WOULD SITUATION DO YOU GUYS REALLY LIKE TO WORK WITH THOSE GUYS OR NOT ..
I've heard plots about how GPs are being sidelined in fabour of PAs. Doctoring on the cheap even though they are nowhere near doctors.
What is the solution? How can we the public or GPs show we are not in favour of this.
PAs are not physicians. They name is deceptive. The people who allowed this mess to happen is who we should be annoyed with not necessarily the PAs themselves. It pays a decent wage so I'm not surprised it's a popular role.
Thank you for being brave enough to speak out.
There is more noise and discontent, so NHS England are starting to sit up and listen, I do think things may change. In the meantime, you can ask which health care practitioners you are seeing at the GP surgery or in hospital and if it is a PA, you could ask if what their role and supervision will be.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf You’re taking this personally. She’s referring to broader implications and rightfully so.
I do care and I am sorry for these ordeals. Though as a victim of a bad experience from actual doctors and nobody is willing to save me. If actual doctors are now having a bad experience, it can feel like "What goes around, comes around", "You reap what you sow".
My concern isn’t with doctors, it is with patients. Patients are the ones who will ultimately suffer. I’m sorry you have had a bad experience, the NHS is not in a good way, but taking on cheaper, inexperienced workforce will only make the problems worse.
@@DrSophieGP I am extremely humbled by your response. Well said.
My deepest apologies for venting my frustrations, please forgive my unkind words. You are right. I do agree with you.
It is very kind of you to raise these issues. You have put a lot of work into this.
There is so much I wish to say, but I cannot say them here. And you probably already know.
Best wishes.
I am now a senior hospital doctor and am also worried about this development and in particular how it's being implemented. I have had student PAs attached to my firm and while they have all been nice people, their underlying clinical knowledge has been - so far - much less than the medical students also attached to the firm.
Fair enough, one might say - different roles, different requirements. But then the roles need to be more clearly defined and separated.
This isn't to say that there isn't space for non-doctors to work within a medical team. When I was a junior doctor, in one job I did we had Medical Support Workers. They were _not_ necessarily clinically trained, would shrivel up in horror if patients referred to them as doctors and would rapidly correct them (they also had a very distinctive uniform to help delineate this difference), but they were extremely helpful in terms of helping to keep the smooth running of a medical firm going. They might chase up scans to ensure they would happen in time, they might liaise with other specialties to ensure referrals happened, they would help you find the correct form (back in the day when paper forms ruled pre-electronic patient records), they would come to inform the medics if a patient confided they didn't understand what was happening so that it could be explained again by the doctors, they would help new junior doctors settle in to a firm and explain the ways of doing things. Although not compulsory, some were trained in taking blood samples or fitting IV cannulae. There was no blurring of the lines, and they were valued and even loved by the medics in the team.
I've also worked with some wonderful Advanced Nurse Practitioners (ANPs), some of whom do have prescribing rights and rights to order ionising radiation. They are usually very senior nurses even before they go into their ANP training, and importantly have years, sometimes decades, of clinical experience at that point already. Crucially, they have an instinct or an at-glance assessment ability of when a patient is unwell, they "know" (in the same way that a senior nursing sister will know when a patient is unwell - surprise: many of the ANPs _are_ nursing sisters prior to ANP training). Secondly, they have a real understanding of what they do and do not know. That I'm not sure is always present with PAs.
I'm not necessarily totally against PAs as a concept - and let's face it, they're not going away - but they do I'm afraid need to be more "Assistants" than "Associates" for the lines not to be blurred and for safety to be maintained; when people say the PA system works in America, it's for this reason. I can see them being _part_ of the clinical team, as long as these are done and as long as there is proper supervision and regulation, but I personally would not put them on the same rota as doctors, i.e. there should still be a minimum number of doctors on a given day, and the PAs should be supernumerary or at least separate and not influencing the number of doctors there. They should also be very clear at self-identifying themselves as PAs and correcting patients if they misidentify them as doctors. I know PAs will say they do this, and hopefully most do, but I've heard of some obfuscating when asked by a patient and saying they are a "clinician", "a member of the clinical team", a "locum" and so on - all of which may strictly be true, but potentially confusing for a patient.
In the same way that you don't want just a Police Community Support Officer (PCSO) turning up when you are being attacked and in fear for your life (you want and need a fully-trained Police Officer), you also do not want a PA being the one to manage your life-threatening emergency solo, but potentially they could be helpful in the actual physical presence of and working side-by-side with the correct doctor.
Thank you for replying with these excellent points. I totally agree.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf I'm sorry that you feel that this was an attack, but actually if you read what I wrote you'll see that I said that I'm not against PAs as a concept and that there is space for others to work within clinical teams. Expressing concerns and sharing one's own experiences are not hate speech or being vindictive; not all critique is punitive, and it is part of working in the NHS to be open to scrutiny and appraisal. In fact, the most important people are not one's colleagues, be they PAs, ANPs or doctors; above all, our responsibility and absolute duty of care is to the patients, and what is best for them. Much of what is written about PAs (not all, I grant you) is with this in mind.
I may be wrong, but this appears to have been a copy-pasted reply, since it doesn't recognise what I wrote above - I'm certainly not doing the same "grunt work" as you anymore and am not in competition - there is a _lot_ more responsibility in my role, and that justifies any differences you speak of. But, crucially, that does not mean you do not have your own part to play within the NHS, it just needs to be properly defined - partly to protect you and your colleagues - rather than made up as one goes along without due consideration, as this and previous Governments are/have been doing.
EDIT: having looked through the rest of the comments, I can see that I was not wrong when I suggested you were copy-pasting this reply which has nothing to do with the post it replies to. You have made the *exact same reply* to posts by eccentricbeliever7, luxdoctor4747, rubysharma8952, iansstinson8684, doctorlisaclinic9000, hmzbn, TT-fn1xb, faisalhanswati3521, andreeasteriu2073, bonariablackie4047, YvonneHrusa-id2xl, TheMrsar28, livvy601, mystrength5640, peterdavidburke, gujralsarabjeet, sanjaylakhani2263...and I'm sure many others. I also see from your profile that you joined TH-cam on 22nd March 2024 and that at the time of posting this, all your replies to the posters above were made exactly 18 hours ago.
You are therefore either a bot posting this randomly, part of a troll farm, or perhaps most worryingly of all genuinely a PA with an axe to grind posting this randomly in scores of posts. I think that should speak for itself, and people can make judgments for themselves about whether to value what you have written.
Most PAs do not tell the patient they are not doctors, too many stories of that happening. i was never told i was seeing a PA. I phoned the medical centre to see doctor and never told by the receptionist i was seeing a PA. That has happened to me so many times now I get paranoid when i go to see the doctor, are they real doctors or a fake ones? Its not good. Not one PA has asked me how my mental health is, even though its on my medical records why.
I disagree that medical students know more than PA students. Because I had experience where Pa students knew as much as med students. Please dont put all PAs down the rabit hole.
I had an unsuccessful interview for PA last year and was thinking about applying again next year. However, after watching your video, you do make some very valid points and I dont want to cause any harm to patients. I intially would have applied to do graduate entry medicine after my BSc, but the competetiveness of it all put me off from applying. However thats probably for the better due to the rigorous years of training and studying a doctor would need to see and treat patients as you correctly mentioned in your video. They have to find the right person who is dedicated and committed enough for this career.
I'm currently working in an NHS histology lab as a medical lab assistant so I think im going to carry on working towards becoming a Biomedical Scientist. There does seem to be a lot of uncertainity in the PA field at the moment. It just doesn't seem like the right time to train to become a PA with all of the uncertainty surrounding it. I may wait for a few more years till their role in the NHS becomes clearer.
I think you are making a sensible choice. Good luck with whatever you end up doing! PS - I was almost put off the graduate entry programme thinking I would never get in, but here I am!
Thank you., For this.. So concerning!
A beautiful, Very large Hospital is very close to my home. This Hospital is Closing Down! 😮
Being New in the U.K., I’ve Noticed there are Soo few Private and NHS Emergency Facilities., Every Town, And Village needs to have its own 24/7 Emergency Services, they Don’t!
I’m absolutely surprised by this, as There’s a Shortage of Beds, And medical Facilities!
NHS what are you Doing?
When is THE NHS going to build more Training Hospitals for Nurses, Doctors and Physios? Etc. 😮
THIS is a Vital and Key point missing to Facilitate ongoing Doctors Training, ABSOLUTELY appalling!
😣
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Well done
Thanks for the video, made me subscribe
👍🏻
Thankyou
Thank you for speaking out about this important issue.
The appalling increase of Never Events as a result of PAs is terrifying.
Raising awareness of this issue is not bullying. 'Some' PAs are entirely overconfident, which is dangerous. It's a scary illustration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
💯
I dont think it is fair to say never events are a result of PA's.
The highest causes of never events last year were listed as wrong site procedure (139)/ retained foreign body post procedure (50)/ wrong implant (25)/ missed nasogastric tube (18) etc
Many health care professionals including Dr's are involved in these Never events
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf PA's complete a 2 year masters degree and their undergraduate degree doesn't even have to be science based.
It takes 10+ years to become a GP, with additional years study for specialisms.
I fully stand by my comment, especially where human lives, rather than inflated egos and/or insecurities, are at stake.
@@reesee-dh5bf Evidence: The NHS had 282 Never Events in 23/24 data. The UK has 376,000 docs = 0.07%
There have been 12 Never Events linked to PA's in Scotland. Scotland has *143* PA's = 8.39%
PA ratio is x100 more Never Events based on the Scottish data.
PA's are putting lives at very serious risk of harm.
www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Provisional-publication-NE-1-April-31-January-2024.pdf
hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2024-01-17/debates/bde42233-6731-4370-96db-6836666abbab/DraftAnaesthesiaAssociatesAndPhysicianAssociatesOrder2024#:~:text=A%20freedom%20of%20information%20request,in%20Scottish%20health%20authority%20areas.&text=fact%20is%20that%20the%20associates,qualifications%20or%20expertise%20as%20doctors
Thanks for highlighting what we’re all thinking Sophie (speaking as a GP who assessed a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetic presenting in DKA in the Emergency Department today who had been seen by a PA who had totally disregarded their highly obvious symptoms several weeks earlier!!)
Gosh, there are so many frightening reports. Surely NHSE & colleges like the RCGP are going to have to act 🤞🏻
Brilliant video 👏 As a GP registrar I worked along side PA’s who although lovely people aren’t qualified to be seeing the patients independently like they were, and then they knock on my door asking me to sign prescriptions for patients they have seen. I don’t have time to re-review their patient and decide if this prescription is appropriate.
Physician assistants may have a role on wards, joining on ward rounds and showing observation charts and drug charts to the doctors and taking bloods and then writing discharge summaries. They do not have a role independently seeing patients and definitely not working in GP practices seeing undifferentiated patients behind closed doors.
Comments above have mentioned how they are great at taking the ‘simple cases’ and leaving the complex cases to a doctor, but i argue there are very rarely ‘simple’ cases. A a sore throat can be an oropharyngeal cancer, reflux can be oesophageal cancer, cystitis can be lichen sclerosis etc
If you didn’t study the zebra’s at medical school you won’t look for them and things will get missed. Stopping the expansion of PA’s is in the interest of patient safety.
Exactly 👍🏻
great video. You are a true queen
🙌🏻
Blame the government not PAs.
I blame senior medical leaders, not PAs
Dr Sophie can you provide research data/ literature evidence where patient safety was at risk because of PAs being in practice ?
In addition there is lot of literature out there where patients are aware of rile of PAs and the care which PA provides, especially in USA and Canada.
Also PAs can prescribe and order imaging. They don’t merely draw bloods or take histories.
I think there is a scope to educate within medical profession about role of PAs.
In the UK, PAs can not prescribe. I’ve left links in the description.
@@DrSophieGP thank you.
Hi Sophie
I 100% agree that Dr's need pay restoration ASAP. However, I think the wider issues of a training competition is not directly due to the PA role. If the PA role did not exist all these issues will not disappear. I think there are entirely valid points especially around scope of practice and patient safety. However, these are all things the GMC has stated they are working with all stakeholders to achieve the best outcome. I think conversation has become hostile on social media and the latest action by the BMA to release a scope of practice out of their remit - without consulting any stakeholders is very questionable.
The difference in pay is unfair and needs to be resolved. All health care professionals support junior doctors. However the conversation around PA's has become toxic - implying all PA's are 'dangerous' is unfair. Some PA's have been working in the same department for 10+ years and are contributing everyday to providing a high quality of care for patients and are appreciated by their doctor colleagues and supervisors (despite significant backlash many dr's have spoken in support of the role). As well as highlighting all the reasons it doesn't work - there are a copious amount of cases where it is working. I agree regulation is necessary for patient safety - which the GMC hopes with be completed by the end of this year. This will ensure PA's are held accountable for their actions. I don't really understand the argument of 'blurring the lines' as most patients do not even know what a GMC number is - they have confirmed associate professional will have an A before - so other HCP's are aware of the role. PA's are not a subitution for Dr's. However, as the growing healthcare needs of the population increasing - PA's can help to ease the workload of Dr's and help to contribute to providing a high-quality of care - this is already occurring in the UK (demonstrated by several studies). It has also been successful in the US.
The valid concerns of Dr's should be addressed - the GMC has said this is imperative that everyone is included in the conversation. However, actively putting down the profession through comparing to Dr's training is not helpful. PA's are not meant to be doctors. They have a specific training - although criticised has led to the development of excellent PA's who are actively helping patients and colleagues on a daily basis. They should not be undervalued.
I hope Dr's are treated alot better by the government. However, I think PAs have a valuable contribution to make to the NHS. Regulation will allow for more public awareness of the role and its limitations. I don't think scaremongering is the way forward. The NHS is a sum of its parts - Dr's, nurses, admin staff, ACPs, PA's etc all have a contribution to make.
As a PA student - the negativity has affected me. Simply due to the fact that I have chosen to train in a role with the best of intentions, to help contribute to delivering of patient care, entirely aware of the limitations. Other allied health roles have said they have received backlash such as the development of nurse practitioners. However, currently are working incredibly well in the healthcare system. Whilst on placement a consultant geriatrician said when she started her training many Dr's were against the speciality as there thought it was taking over other areas of medicines - however she pointed out that over time the value is understood. She said within medicine itself there is toxicity within specialities - I think more respect for all colleagues is important. Every one has a part to play - the regulation by GMC is a good step forward - I find some opinions are put out just to put down the role rather than provide solutions of how Dr's and PA's can work well. I have seen PA's + Dr's working incredibly well together and providing a high quality of patient care.
Through regulation - the main concern of patient safety will be addressed.
Additional several Dr's have pointed out PA's on wards have increased opportunities for training - as there is someone to stay on the wards.
www.pulsetoday.co.uk/letter/letters/letter-gps-need-to-speak-out-against-the-online-abuse-pas-face/
www.birmingham.ac.uk/news-archive/2019/physician-associates-are-an-asset-to-hospital-medical-and-surgical-teams-study-finds
www.hee.nhs.uk/our-work/medical-associate-professions/impact-case-studies/physician-associate-role-secondary-care-impact-case-study
As a survivor of contaminated blood I'm terrified of this short sighted petty cost saving con job. The thought of my post HCV and consequent liver transplant and concommitent comlex maintenance regime health being managed by a PA when even qualified GPs are somtimes out of their depth is terrifying tbh. Tax the bloody rich for God's sake, kick the private sector asset stripper out of our NHS, and cancel those rip off PFI contracts.
Dear Sophie I’m so confused now, is your concern about patient safety or about junior doctors not getting jobs?
PA’s have good knowledge as they are being very well trained in a very intense course at the GMC standards; and their scientific background gives them the depth and base they need prior to the 2yr Masters program for PA.
You should rather speak up about the overseas doctors who are flooding the NHS; they are the real threat to your jobs and patients safety as they haven’t been trained at the standards required in this country, whereas PAs pay an awful lot of money for their studies in this country and they are being trained at the UKs standards just like the doctors trained in the UK
It’s about patient safety. The PA courses are unaccredited, there is no agreed scope of practice, or supervision requirements. We see PAs are replacing doctors, rather than assisting them. Being a doctor is a crazy hard job, there’s a reason it takes years and years, huge financial investment, exams upon exams and strict portfolio requirements. This is simply incomparable to a 2 year course. A previous BSc doesn’t in any way make up for this, but that is not always required anyway. I had a previous BSc before doing medicine so can speak from experience. I do feel bad for PAs stuck in the middle of all this, but it is totally bonkers that thousands of doctors are out of work, whilst many are being replaced with PAs.
PAs need to have 1500 hours at least of clinical placement. Also, it a 2 year postgraduate degree on top of a science undergraduate degree, it is competitive as it may need a ucat score and MMI. It's not fair to say PAs are unsafe compared to doctors as the population sizes are vastly different and the data needs to be standardised for a fair comparison. PAs may not know 'zebra' conditions but they can always refer to a colleague for patients outside of their scope of practice as can doctors and advanced nurse practitioners who also see patients in GP. PAs are therefore well aware of emergency conditions for patient safety purposes. We need to stop scapegoating the whole profession because of one PAs wrongdoing and fear mongering to the public. What should be done is increasing the public's awareness of the profession and the scope of practice to employer as PAs cannot give medication without a prescriber signing off. PAs have been around for decades in other countries and they work, they have also been around in the UK for a fair while however only gained negative attention as of late, because of the potential encroachment of doctors' training due to unclear supervision which the GMC should clear up with regulation.
You can’t ask for help if the issue is in the ‘unknown unknown’ area, only the ‘known unknown’ area. There are many examples of undergraduate degrees that are acceptable for the PA course application, including zoology, botany and even law. You mention people should be made more aware of the scope of practice, where is this agreed? You mention the GMC, but they have made it clear they will not set scope of practice. Supervision is also unclear. Unfortunately, although I do feel sorry for the many brilliant PAs stuck in the middle, doing their best trying to help out patients and the NHS, the role has been expanded and extended without due diligence and patient safety is at risk.
@@DrSophieGPyou are right, the role has been expanded and extended without due diligence in SOME environments - so why not place the focus on what PAs should be doing and reprimanding the organisations responsible for the wrongful expansion? I can’t understand why you think the correct approach is to target the profession as a whole? Have you thought about the blowback this has day to day for PAs just trying to do their jobs? At the end of the day, no one in their right mind wants poor patient outcomes or to work in an unsafe environment, but the onus needs to be placed on the employing institutions for incorrectly using PAs, instead of on the individuals who have spent years of their life training to help the public. That’s the only way helpful change will be able to happen.
It’s also worth noting that PAs have been around for over a decade in the UK and so patients could be seeing PAs anywhere on a spectrum of experience - some could have 10 years experience in GP and some could be newly qualified - the same as doctors. So to use the fact that they do a 2 year masters as evidence of their lack of capability is ludicrous.
@@Mimi04933 Unfortunately PAs are really stuck in the middle of all this mess and I really feel sympathy for them. I am really trying to show this is not the fault of PAs, doing their best with good intentions, but a systemic issue, at the fault of senior medical leadership. Experience doesn’t equate to competency though. There’s a reason an Emergency Medicine doctor can’t work in GP and a GP trainee can’t work independently until they have passed through years of training and very difficult exams. The issue is the profession as a whole, the lack of clarity on scope of practice, supervision and regulation is a patient safety concern.
@@DrSophieGP I would have to disagree that PAs are “stuck” in the middle - it appears doctors are hanging them out to dry on purpose. Where is this concern around clinical paramedics who are let loose in primary care after going to uni to be trained only to work on an ambulance? Some would argue this makes them even less qualified than PAs to be seeing routine conditions that they’re not taught about in uni, but no one seems to care about this? They aren’t even taught how to perform routine examinations like breast or DRE, which in recent years had lead to things like missed cancer diagnoses.
You also made a clear distinction between Drs and PAs in your comment without highlighting the PA side - trainee GPs need to pass exams to work independently as GPs - PAs do not work independently in primary care, they work under the supervision of a GP throughout their career, no matter how much experience they have.
It is also the case that GP surgeries have “preceptorship” years for newly qualified PAs, as a form of further training on the job for those with no primary care experience, or those who have just passed the national licensing exam.
I agree that experience is not equal to competency, but in your video you seemed to use the length of the PA degree to call them incompetent compared to doctors as they study for longer. This now seems to contradict your view that experience doesn’t equal competency.
I think the important thing to note here is that PAs are not trying to be doctors, but instead, some institutions are putting them in positions to work outside their scope.
Ultimately it probably all comes down to the underfunding of the NHS which sometimes leads to the use of PAs, as well as Clinical Pharmacists, Clinical Paramedics and Advanced Nurse Practitioners as cheap labour.
I think doctors would have a lot more support from all parties involved if they focused on calling out the root cause of the issue instead for fear mongering the public and degrading another profession.
I think there needs to be more of an uprising from PAs on this issue of poor working conditions, but some are too scared to speak up out of fear of losing their jobs.
If doctors could put their disdain for the role itself aside and team up with PAs as well as other Allied Health Professionals to address the root cause, I think everyone would get much further in the fight for patient safety.
@@Mimi04933 But the point is how PAs are being used, that they are seeing undifferentiated patients in primary & secondary care without adequate supervision. Doctors have qualifications, very rigorous training and then experience. It’s not one or the other. Other members of the healthcare team have distinct roles, training and regulation, so it’s not right to muddy the debate using ‘whataboutery’. I honestly don’t want to upset PAs, or cause a divide, but patient safety is paramount.
Here in the US, only 2 States don’t allow PAs to practice alone. IN & OH, my State and next door. And in the military, they can practice and proscribe on their own.
I understand the training process is quite different in the US compared to the UK, but I don’t know too much about it. Sounds like they do act to replace doctors though 🤷🏻♀️
@@DrSophieGP You are right. They aren’t Doctors. They’re Physicians’ Assistants! They can treat a wound or spider bite… in Indiana they can’t be ob-gyns! A surgeon can do it all. A GP also can do it all.
the RCGP at their council meeting last Friday have adopted policies which are closer to the BMA view
Yes, this was very interesting. Still lacking clarity on if PAs can see undifferentiated patients though.
@@DrSophieGPthey can but I dont agree with it,they should see delegated cohorts appropriate for their experience. No hosppital or GP should employ PA they cannot supervise and mentor adequately.
@@scarred10 absolutely 👍🏻
Just spoke to a PA and she said she was a medical professional. I had to disagree she didn't like it
She is a medical professional but not a doctor just as an ANP is a med prof.
I'm a senior ED Reg who saw an unfortunate 50 year old female, previously fit & well who was brought in following a cardiac arrest with Rosc and rearrested, became relatively "stable" after thrombolysis. She is now on ITU. It's absolutely terrifying that this happened and this would not have happened if she had been seen in Majors. I also saw a young man just last week who fell downstairs & complained to the paramedics of midline thoracic spine tenderness & was advised not to go to hospital! Needless to say he presented to us & xr showed unstable #'s & he then wrnt onto have a CT & a spinal surgical review!
Were these patients not reviewed by doctors quick enough?
Same issue exists in the US, perhaps worse because PA's write scripts think order tests. Also Doctors in the US are leaving the profession because of burnout. The reason is money. Insurance companies and hospitals want to reduce costs. Same thing happin my profession, I am a retired CPA and the State of Ohio awarded licenses to licensed PA'S, i.e. these people just had to send in a check and they were awarded a CPA license even though they never had to take and pass a uniform national exam. Some people say that it's harder than the bar exam. I was livid, lowering the standard lowers the value of what I achieved and cheapens it. I imagine you as a Doctor feel the same way about the PA'S. At the end of the day they are going to do what they want to, regardless of whether it's fair and/or safe for the patients.
Thanks for sharing your experience from the US. It is difficult to understand why PAs get to skip the tough stuff!
100000000% accurate
This rotten mindset of employing PAs must cease ASAP.
The job of PA must disappear. Period.
I do think there may be a role for a physician assistant, as it was first intended.
They are rolling this project out in Ireland too. PA job adverts in cardio thoracic surgery & internal medicine at the moment. Currently in neurology, oncology, urology & on stroke teams. Major issues with informed consent as patients dont know or realise they're not doctors. Irish system also employs consultants who arent consultants & on the SpR division of IMC register.
Eeek! Hopefully the challenges made in England will have ramifications in Ireland too 🤞🏻
Hopefully -otherwise we're on a downhill slope. I think there should be a separate regulator for PA's. Creates a conflict of interest if GMC are responsible for regulating doctors & PA's.
@@DrSophieGP If the challenges are not won you will see a lot of people dying.
Patients need to be up front and ask a doctor directly what eaatly they are.
Thank you I work nhs admin and had heard of this was worried still am ! Everyone should know well done
Yes, I really think more people need to know.
I think I may no longer pursue PA anymore due to the hate that I might be facing ....
I would suggest it’s not a good role to get into at the moment with so much uncertainty. Try the graduate entry program into medicine instead!
@@DrSophieGPim a PA for 2 yrs and would have done medicine if I was younger BUT this is being totally misreported by media , driven by resentment over pay in BMA and mismanaged by NHS and local trusts.No PA was ever supposed to repace doctors, play doctor or work outside delegated tasks by named consultant.Whats happpened this week with RCGP is a joke after some PAs being 20 yrs in the role almost.After that long they should know more than any junior doc, not a GP but they arent trying to be GPs .
@@scarred10 Experience doesn’t make up for the knowledge gained through medical school and resident doctor years of training, portfolio and exams. There is a reason we do all that. It’s not for fun!
@@DrSophieGP that would be true if the purpose of PAs was to replace a senior doctor which every PA knows is not the case regardless of what some trusts may be doing.I know that I have never met an intern with any more medical knowledge than me, but I learned at least twice as much since working the past 2 yrs, I still study outside work to understand the mechanism behind everything I see the senior docs do and say.I have a great appetite for understanding medicine.That will continue until I retire.
@@scarred10 That’s great that you have an appetite to learn medicine, you could even apply to the graduate entry course and study medicine. Whatever the outcome, I hope things get sorted soon, as it isn’t fair on PAs, doctors, but most importantly, the patients.
It’s pathetic,all measures to save money but poor patients healthcare
😔
Couldn't agree with you more. I think I saw one recently and it was somewhat of a disaster.
Nothing personal against whom I saw, perfectly pleasant person, but I recognised their lack of experience and qualification.
The Govt needs to rethink its strategy extremely carefully.
👍🏻
You'll find that with every profession when starting out including Drs
Not a risk works weell in many countries
It may work very differently in other countries. The UK Health Secretary has called for a review due to the concerns related to the use of PAs in the UK.
@@DrSophieGP and also because of misinformation spread by people like you. The ipsos poll showed positive public outcomes and interactions with PAs. I believe concerns are incidental and a review would be welcomed at looking at these critically as well as the positive contributions and work PAs do.
@ I still am yet to see evidence of any misinformation I have presented. Please stop the obsession with commenting so much on this thread, although it does help boost the algorithm.
@@DrSophieGP sounds good, hopefully more notice and call out the misinformation. You might want to check in with the GMC. your video, ‘evidence’ and reactive comments is all that’s needed.
Thank you.
is this another doctor jealous that a PA does 2 years ? A PA knows their limits and is their to help doctors and be utilised by doctors rather then creating a seperate barrier.
It sounds like you haven’t watched the video.
I really have watched it people like you can’t admit faults !
@@pkajk7321 In the video I specifically talk about doctors making errors, hence, again, why it would seem you haven’t watched it.
Exactly!! It's like comparing apples and oranges and assuming both are citrus fruits just because they are fruits. Doctors and PA'S have somewhat similar roles but totally different roles overall with a doctor having much more knowledge due to more years of training. The problem is NHS not paying doctors enough and thus UK doctors go to US, Canada, Australia etc where they are paid 5-10 times higher. It's not the PA'S fault that a graduate PA makes more than a junior doctor. PA'S are doing their job which they were trained to do at universities, just like doctors are doing after studying at universities. Any sensible person can figure out where the problem is arising from. It's from doctors not getting paid enough under NHS and thus they are butthurt about it.
Yes i believe i hada phone call with a P A,lovely to me,but felt she was more suited to sales position than understanding my problem
Physician Assistants is what we call them in the US. They’re fighting tooth and nail to change it to “Associate”. They also like to call themselves “medical providers” and like calling doctors the same making them seem equal. I did not go to “medical provider” school. I have a doctorates degree in medicine. Took me 10 years of training after undergrad school to be able to practice as an attending physician. I would have been scared for the patients had Id been thrown out there after my second year of training.
Yes, I don’t understand how they have the confidence to treat patients with such little training! It took me 13 years training before I was independently managing undifferentiated patients and I was still nervous 😬. I think the false confidence is part of the problem. #DunningKruger
The name is already changed to physician associate, because PAs are not assistant they have autonomy. A new PA graduate and intern doctor share similar knowledge.
Ofcourse PAs are medical providers who are trained well to take care of patients. Just like PGY 1,2,3 would grow, PAs grow in their knowledge and clinical skills. If one PA didn’t show competency it doesn’t mean all are incompetent. 😕
@@aishaamjad428 Are you working in the USA? In the UK, PAs are not autonomous and always have to work under the supervision of a doctor (although there is no confirmed rules for how this applies in real life, which is problematic). PAs can not prescribe or order ionising radiation. If PAs had similar knowledge to interns, we might as well scrap the medical degree and get rid of all those pesky years of the medical degree and seemingly never ending exams!
Hi Sophie, I think some more nuanced discussion and questions are needed here. Are 3000 PAs working across the entire UK who are mostly working in GP really causing significant loss of training opportunities for junior doctors who are mostly rotating through hospital? This seems highly unlikely although it’s clear plenty of medical students and junior doctors feel this way. If they want us to be regulated then regulation with the GMC is surely a win, and if we’re focusing on safety which we should be then physician associates do need access to these opportunities too. I find it hard to believe that the numbers we exist in currently is having a significant impact. What’s clear is that the profession is currently being scapegoated for everything doctors are unhappy with.
It will incite fear in patients (and division at a very sensitive time for both professions) to tell the public that we cannot be thought of as “medics” simply due to length of training and not being doctors, you can train as a paramedic in two years and attend life threatening emergencies. What do you think we do in those two years of postgraduate training? The undergraduate course length is also 3 years to account for lack of previous degree but you didn’t mention this.
The data regarding never events you’re referring to all comes from Scotland unless you have access to more? Please can you provide more information on where, how and by who this data was collected and how much of it there is? We would also need information on access to supervision levels and the role of the supervising doctor who maintains overall clinical responsibility for the patient in these scenarios in order for people to be able to draw balanced conclusions.
Many physician associates are working in general practise where all the patients are triaged first by senior GPs who are readily available if requested by patient or needed for input by clinician so difficult to see that we are replacing doctors (particularly in current numbers) or unsafe? Patients want to see doctors but current capacity doesn’t allow for that and demand for minor illness appointments isn’t going anywhere, so difficult to see how we are not needed? Most physician associates are over cautious because we are fully aware that two years of training leaves a lot of unknown unknowns hence the very clear and strict emphasis on working under a GP/consultant, asking for support, and discussing red flags and safety netting well with patients throughout training.
Regarding doctors struggling to find work, this is a situation which needs addressing urgently but I think it’s ingenuous to blame physician associates. Interesting statistics posted on doctorsUK Reddit forum the other day, this struggle is in fact due to competition for jobs from the high levels of immigrant doctors we currently have in the UK.
I am not a Physician Associate but very well said. You guys are definitely being bullied and just watching this video and how condescending her tone of voice sounded in 2:03 about your two year training is awful and parts of the video when she rolls her eyes. I'm glad that not all doctors feel this way. I'm glad that you guys are being regulated by non other than the GMC. The facts in this video are all wrong and it'll be very interesting for her to bring in concrete evidence with every point she's mentioned. She's just carrying a story she has heard and spreading false rumours. Firstly, PAs always address themselves as PAs and not doctors and PAs want to be PAs and not doctors. It's so ridiculous for her to say that these PAs are taking your jobs on the wards and all.
PAs are not a profession, they offer absolutely nothing unique to the MDT. They are a tool of a government and are being ushered in against the will of the majority of the medical profession by seriously unscrupulous means in order to pave the way for privatisation.
The undergraduate course that qualifies for a PA masters could be zoology, or even law in some cases, so in no way replaces the 3 years of pre-clinical studies in a medical degree. Even a biomedical science degree isn't comparable. Yes, the Never Events data comes from Scotland, as discussed in the House of Lords debate (link attached in description). The guidelines for PAs working on the ARRS scheme states that they must be seeing undifferentiated patients, so certainly not all triaged by GPs. The point about the unknown unknowns is PAs may not always know when to ask for help. I certainly don't want to stoke division, and as I said in the video, there are loads of fantastic PAs working in the NHS doing their best for patients, but the concern is the lack of clarity on scope of practice, supervision and regulation. The RCGP have now stated they disagree the GMC should be regulating PAs, so even that is still up in the air. Patients have a right to know what is going on. I also mentioned in the video there are many problems with the NHS right now, but this concern over PAs/AAs is just one that many people have no idea about.
@@DrSophieGP You're so condescending in your video. How can PAs not know when to ask for help when that is literally what they're trained to do at Master's level after holding first class and 2:1 BSc degrees?So because someone's studied zoology, they're in capable of escalating a problem that they have been intensely trained to do at Level 7? Just because you want to compare their two year intensive postgraduate degree studying medicine modules to 5 years of medicine for those who want to become doctors? Even doctors need to know when to ask for help regardless of their grade. Again, why are you comparing a totally different profession to doctors when they are not doctors? Physios in the ward also escalate a problem to doctors on the ward when they notice a patient's sats deteriorating for example. HCAs, Nurses do too so if it is not to bully another profession because you're comparing their roles and falsely accused them of taking doctor jobs just because you're trying to fit them into that box so that the gullible can hate on them as well. Good that the same GMC is no longer for doctors but for PAs and AAs, that way, the doctors who hate them will be forced to come to terms with PAs and AAs who are here to stay. So ridiculous. Why should PAs not see undifferentiated diagnosis when they are trained to actually do that. If you're trained to see undifferentiated diagnosis in medical school that qualifies you to do this without supervision, and PAs are trained to see undifferentiated diagnosis in their two year training that qualifies them to do so but under supervision as it is for their profession then why can't they as well? Again, your problem is that you're trying to fit them into the doctor box when they're not doctors. And who is depriving patients of their rights to know? Every PA and health care professional introduce themselves by name and role so patients also know who is treating them. Just because you mentioned that there are fantastic PAs in your video doesn't erase the fact that you're also condescending towards their training with your tone of voice, eye rolling as if because they're not doctors, they're not qualified to do their job that they're actually qualified to do. The RCGP can disagree with GMC but good luck stopping the GMC. By the way, as you mentioned that a PA who misdiagnosed a patient that led to her death and scapegoating a whole PA profession, don't forget to mention the fit and healthy 46 year old postman who also died after London doctors failed to spot a blood cot just as was the case with the PA. So why is the doctor profession not being scapegoated for this too. Utter ridiculous, I guess doctors with longer years of training aren't perfect either.
@@ThePushUKLifestyle faack you ,pas don’t know shiit
Funding should not take priority over safety
But don’t clinical specialised nurses do the same ? 😂 They still see patients, manage, refer and prescribe by themselves… PAs and Doctors are meant to be a team and mutually decide on management and referrals. Just as cardiac physiologists help the cardiologists. Also If it’s proven to work in another country I don’t understand why it is so much of a worry in the UK. 😵💫 Or could it be simply jealousy/ anger exactly for the same points mentioned… Patents safety? Doesn’t the doctor make the decision as PAs work to support the doctor under the doctor? Perhaps if some doctors can go back would actually become PAs instead 🤔 Also to become PA is not 2 years is 5 and the undergraduate course most likely contains the same modules as in medicine and the 2yrs PA course is most likely more intense training. And in terms of money doctors get double the salary of a PA (Gp doctor vs PA in a GP practice) exactly because of the experience and specialising the GP doctor goes through…. Newly qualified PA earns more than Junior because Junior is still training but a PA is a PA and there is not any progression. I just think this is so unprofessional (I am not a PA neither a Doctor I am just sharing my thoughts and trying to understand) I am fine to be seen by a PA because In my understanding the PA should report it to the doctor and the doctor should approve….. Anyway in this country we are never seen by the specialist anyway mainly by nurses 🤷🏻♀️
- Clinical specialised nursing have gone through approved training, exams and regulation, unlike PAs.
- PAs bring nothing unique to the MDT, unlike every other member.
- It works completely differently in the USA.
- Any undergraduate course does not in any way make up for the MBBS course. I did the graduate entry program and the only benefit to any previous degree is that you have learnt how to learn. The PAs who have gone onto do a medical degree have confirmed there is no comparison at all.
- PAs are already trying to work for a progression, calling themselves senior PAs, consultant PAs etc.
- It is not unprofessional to call out concerns regarding patient safety.
- In the UK, it is a false statement to say "we are never seen by a specialist".
Scope of practice is key. This will be defined by registering bodies and of course needed. There is a need for recognised courses that meet GMC set requirements, many courses dont just require a science degreee but a prior qualification in crtain Allied Healthcare and be registered/practicing for a minimum number of years, nurses and ODPs are 2 roles that do the 2 years of training on top of their prior professional training and experience.. PAs should not replace medics as a cheap alternative. Junior doctors work under guidance of registrars and consultants, shouldnt PAs be a part of that hierarchy. We also have roles such as Surgical Care Practioners who do carry out surgical procedures when signed off by their supervising surgical consultant, but are not doctors, most come from nursing and ODP roles prior. Nurse Practioners in GP surgeries see patients and many can prescribe. Every ED visitor is triaged usuall by a nurse before seeing a doctor - a first point of contact that determines how that patient will progress through an ED, imo a massively responsible role and one in which there have been many many never events with inaccurate scoring. Roles evolve and the rate of medical advances is expotential and it puts so much strain on doctors that delegation is needed but I agree that this needs to be done for the right reasons and in the right way.
GMC have specifically said they won’t set scope of practice, so you are right, this is a key issue.
@@DrSophieGP I was curious about whether and how you would reply. You are absolutely correct in asserting that people should ask questions pertinant to the provision of their care. There is also a need not to be alarmist! The GMC have said they wont set scope of practive but with the addtional context of, to quote
"_*We won't determine scope of practice for AAs and PAs*_ ....... _*just as we don’t determine it for doctors*_. We know that NHS England, employer bodies and royal colleges have begun looking at how AA and PA scope of practice may develop over time". As stated at the launch of the consultancy process on this subject matter. Legislated for by government already.
I specifically mentioned educational standards, delegtion, inferred an issue with referral but you havent picked up on these or have chosen not to? Do you have misgivings about the GMC's position? If you do we must do better!!.
To continue the GMC will -
> set the standards of patient care and professional behaviours PAs and AAs need to meet
> set the outcomes and standards that students qualifying from PA and AA courses must meet to achieve registration, and approve the curricula that courses must deliver
> check who is eligible to work as a PA or AA in the UK and that they continue to meet the professional standards we set throughout their careers
> give guidance and advice to help PAs and AAs understand what’s expected of them
> investigate where there are concerns that patient safety, or the public’s confidence in PAs and AAs, may be at risk, and take action if needed
Maybe adding the following link to references and further reading can assist with nuancing a less clickbait balanced tone to the information and to help reassure concerned viewers of this channel and patients that may be worried, highlighting that the GMC has and is addressing concerns mentioned.
www.gmc-uk.org/news/news-archive/an-update-preparing-for-regulation-of-physician-associates-and-anaesthesia-associates
As an aside another concerning issues facing the delivery of service is the onging creep of restriction of student doctors' direct involvement in patient care in comparison to previous generations, predominantly due to concerns of litigation. This has resulted in delayed progress to competance and levels of clinical independence. Day 1 as an FY1 was daunting enough in the past as Im sure you would agree, it is significantly moreso now. The average ages of a reg attaining specialist and/or consultant roles has remained the same but the depth of experience has lessened, also impacted by work time directives (not a bad thing of but does need to be taken in to consideration). There has, for a time, been an unoffocial hierarchy developing within consultant 'circles', consultants consulting consultants like that of a reg. With this in mind it is certainly worth a video to suggest to patients looking at the numbers, not percentages, of procedures perfromed by a consultant (and their team), pertinant to the particular patient, how recently, with straighforward, understandable and accurate stats on outcomes - facilitating effective informed consent.
I do apologies for the length of this but I feel that it was important enough to bother. In an era of masses of information available to people it is essential to create awareness of issues, as you have done, but to update commentary also eg GMC addressed issues of education standards where 'distance learning' for such a role in a multi-dsiciplinary team would not be acceptable or accepted, in general or by esteemed colleagues in the profession.
@@rocksock7999 I didn’t respond to all your points because I responded many times in lots of other comments if you want to have a read further down. The GMC are being sued by the BMA for their role in this so the link to the GMC guidance isn’t very helpful. The GMC are absolutely failing the patients with their inability to give clarity on what the role of PA is. We’ve seen this yesterday with the GMC themselves confirming that PAs study medicine, ‘only the length and of course content’ was different. To then hours later turn around and say that was incorrect and in fact PAs do not study medicine. If the GMC don’t understand the role of PAs, how on earth is of any member of the public going to understand? Or PAs, or doctors for that matter 🤷🏻♀️.
@@DrSophieGP Point taken on previous replies, l didnt look too far beyond initial demoralised junior medics and their greener far away fields thinking - I understand their reasoning but not sure that many are as informed on choosing better work conditions in other countries rather than generally better lifestyles with the adventure abroad - Different debate for a different day, Canada eg is not all as whistles and bells as some think (mine own greener field at one time) and the sun in Perth will always make life that bit more positive. I dont expect additional answers as I suspect there could be answers already given and I havent deep dived in to whats already posted. But on the off chance, have you worked with PAs? Its not a loaded question! My experience is that they work in a team, under supervision as I would expect of juniors, different levels of expectation!! I would expect them to be clear on their role, scope, and clarity in their early patient interaction. If attention is brought to some lets pretend it could well become a formal disciplinary matter, havent been there yet but then it is a clear message given to all day dot. As with all the people worked with they know what is expected. I have had concern about FY1s, judgement rather than knowledge, indeed more senior colleagues on an occasion and it would be same for any staff where ultimately the buck stops here. I get that this isnt the concern you have per sé, that you feel the GMC need to project a clearer message - I feel there is personal responibility to keep things clear within what is proposed. I have watched PAs (anaesthesia) deliver and also train junior medics in the administration of regional blocks exceptionally well, better than I at one time albeit there werent fancy sonosites in my days. My personal experiences have been largely positive, trusted as much as any other but with the personal assessment of what when where and who. If I was convinced that there isnt a dollop of snobbery in a some of the attitudes seen towards PAs, that there are precedents in other roles, SCPs, various nurse practioners etc, that clinical experience is built so an experienced PA and FY1 I dont necessarily rank on a straight line (5yr at Uni v eg the knarly ED Sister 10yrs at the coalface + 2 postgrad one example Im not sure id butt heads with especially on their patch), I will never ignore a nurses clinical opinion, a schoolboy error made once, and they're not 5yrs a medhead, PAs are not 2 yrs at postgrad and off you go + as a mentioned, have significant previous experience etc etc..... then maybe Id shout a bit louder around GMC. BMA at odds with GMA wouldnt be a first!! Representation including job protectionsim is a primary function and something I happen to agree with. PA's are here and for good as an addition not a cheap replacement - I havent seen much beyond the usual sort of purveyor of future doom stating that this will happen. If its tried on me I would refuse, probably using scope of practice and an ability to effectively supervise or delegate supervision. I wont peak for GP practices not being a GP but I wouldnt mind being a fly on the wall for a butting heads with a chain superpractice manager - GPs refuse to consult or supervise under reasonable grounds (how did you feel when a practice nurse became a thing, or would now trust in comparison, or could we be back to not wanting to share a registation body? Ive not heard too much grumbling by nurses about nursing associates who are tbh I wouldnt necessarily spot the difference in the scrub role tbh).
While I have been long winded, not as much as usual and not as coherant as id like, phone isnt as much fun to type and build an argument on even when at a loose end, this issue is not near the top 5 or even 10 most pressing risks to patient safety. Ive mentioned a few, another one would be to get our own profession to early recognition and treatment of sepsis. If PAs somehow manage to put a dent in that 50000 annual average they'd have a net positive on the service. How after 5 years training so many of the preventable deaths in that 50k are missed, all that training, to recognise.... infection or has that been delegated to nursing and EWS charts, where's their clinical head at if chart cheat sheets dont work. Worth a video - When to ask 'could it be sepsis' for patients. Done right clicks would be up there!!
Sip and Stay policy, highlighting that many not such a killer but seriously not very nice!!
The British public do not have a clue how serious this is. PAs / AAs do not have the medical science competence to see and treat patients - yet they are. There are many cases where patients have died as a result of patients being treated by PAs.
You have done the right thing trying to protect patients.
It is simple for the public, how much do you value your health and that of your family health. If you do - make sure you know who you are being seen by.
👏🏻
I think they are getting wind of it because Labour are 20 points a head in the polls. Starmer and Co have not said anything, just keep mum and it double digits for them. People are fed up of the tories and want the NHS to be properly funded but labour hates the NHS.
You don’t get onto the training places because the NHS is flooded with overseas trained doctors
PAs are not replacing doctors, they have a different role;
Doctors trained in the UK have been leaving for other countries in the past due to higher pay; so you should ask the government for higher pay and have a go about the overseas doctors flooding the NHS and replacing the doctors trained in the UK
PAs are indeed replacing doctors, we have clear evidence of this. Have you noticed the doctor strikes? We have been asking for higher pay. I haven’t seen evidence that overseas doctors have been a cause of lack of training places for UK graduates.
My possible explanation of the non-medical profession expansion is the political need of the government and NHS management.
As we know, a fully trained doctor requires money and time. Politicians cannot wait such years of training because they need to show the results ASAP to win the next election. As a result, politicians rather increase such non-medical professions than invest in training posts for doctors.
As the NHS management, doctors in general are annoying people. Hard to deal with, annoyingly raise concerns and issues, etc...
Probably, the worst part for the management is that doctors are a vital part of healthcare so they have to listen and follow what doctors say. Think about it. They think they are at the top of the hierarchy but they still need to listen and follow what those annoying people say. From the management perspective, Increasing PAs and alternative doctors' roles are favorable because then, they can easily control those annoying people.
What about patient safety??? I don't think they care. ya, sure they always say "Patient safety is the highest priority, but funnily speaking they do not take any responsibility. For them, they just point their fingers toward "Oh! this bad doctor or PA did it."
In conclusion, this recent increase in PAs and alternative professions is the rotten masterpiece of NHS management and politicians.
Already happening in my doctors i saw physian didn't kniw tiil checked ny practice website but difference is i know all gps at my practice which know whos gp my sisters partner is gp there my sister s nurse but thus be torys plan fill gap as torys who destroyed it slowly trying privatize it mean labour wont be much different as want increase private sector in nhs was new labour who introduced privatization
Yes, it’s all quite disheartening! There are plenty of great people still willing to fight for the NHS though 💪🏻🤞🏻
A major point Missing, Soo many Pharmaceuticals-can have MAJOR Side Effects which can Mimic soo many diseases, on presentation in an Emergency or even in a cumulative manner!
I’m sure and hoping this 2 year degreed Course, will emphasis this!
Yes, I’m not clear on how much pharmacology is covered on the course. Clearly won’t be anything comparable to a medical degree and ongoing training.
@@DrSophieGPits 6 months pharmacology before clinical placement ,I personally had done ot all before at undergrad level and never used most of the material in practice since.From working alongside interns and SHOs,I know as much about the subject as most and details are always checked against online resources or ward pharmacist when needed kust like the junior docs do who like us all learn mostly on the job after graduation.
@@scarred10 I’ve since learned all the courses are different (as I don’t think accredited, with no consensus of syllabus?) @adam_skeen on Twitter was a PA and now a med student said: “Many PA courses are severely deficient in pharmacology and prescribing content - mine included.” Others may have the topic well covered, but hard to do pharmacology if you haven’t had chance to cover physiology & anatomy sufficiently.
@@DrSophieGPits correct the syllabi are not standardised since theres no legally overseeing body like the GMC(up until last week I believe,they will be standardised now)but the faculty of PAs out of the RCP has issued a recommended one for over a decade.We certainly studied anatomy from dissection but physiology was embedded in clinical medicine rather than a separate subject,you were expected to study the recommended resources outside class time.our pharma in Ireland was certainly enough theoretical content(I did several semesters of drug synthesis and design at undergrad)but no prescribing classes.PAs would need to do a prescribers course if the legislation to allow that ever goes through.In Ireland we only have 1 course and 70 working PAs so theres no disrespect from junior docs.They all treat me like a doctor but I refuse any task I havent trained to do or feel is outside my experience I have no problem admitting that.
@@scarred10 I’m sure you’re a credit to your team, great to hear, thank you.
Could you share data on this; specifically showing that PAs have poor patient putcomes compared to MDs.
That would make more impact policy wise. Otherwise this is just person opinion and to some degree gateleeping medical practice.
I’ve added references in the description
Hi, i'm a nurse in Australia and have a graduate certificate in nursing i'm thinking about either doing a master's in nursing or your PA master in Ireland/England, i do NOT mean any desrespect but just wanting to ask your advices, do if you don't mind sharing your opinion please do! Thank you 😊PS: in Australia we are registered as nurses and can prescribe as NP's
I think there’s a lot of uncertainty about the PA training and jobs in England, so it isn’t something I’d be recommending to people at the moment.
Well done on a really comprehensive video Sophie, you covered all the main bases in an easy to follow way. And btw is this unscripted?! Even with some notes this is seriously impressive! Some long ass takes in such a natural way without any hesitations 🤯
Thank you! That really means a lot coming from you especially! I had headings to cover, but otherwise it was unscripted. I’d been researching for months, so knew the topic well. I don’t ever do scripted videos, it just doesn’t work for me, but it does mean I put a lot of work in upfront 🤪
PA school teaches you to ask for help!
PAs don’t just do a two year course, without having a BSc - 3 sometimes 4 year course.
Many medical schools only do 3 years of theory with placements staring in year 4 & 5.
Stop misleading people to think PAs have just done a 2 year course. You are saying they aren’t doctors yet all you do is compare them.
8:15 you’ve just described your F1 colleagues who have done the equivalent amount of time in university. They see patients and gave but had that many examinations. It seems you think PAs are trying to be consultants? Cause what kind of unnecessary comparison are you making?!
And have you bothered to explain that all juniors work under consultants - the consultant makes the decision mostly in the hospital during WR. The junior team typically do the jobs.
Get your facts right. Nothing but a biased agenda here.
Ask any PAs who have gone on to become doctors, they will tell you the training is worlds apart and yes I do compare them, because PAs are being used to replace doctors. I’m not going to comment any further. It is a tricky situation and I’ve said many times, this is not the fault of hard working PAs, but rather the senior staff who have set up this new role without any proper evidence or planning. I wish you well in the future.
Safe and effective
?
@@DrSophieGP 'some doctors are safe and effective in their clinical reasoning .don't you think so
@@sugarcan1110 Well, I would hope most doctors are!
This feels like a broad assumption than someone who isn’t a doctor is immediately incapable. Someone with 3yrs science and often healthcare background and 2 years in INTENSE GENERALIST MEDICAL TRAINING, are trusted with patients because the literature supports them as safe practitioners. Pay and scope ate the governments responsibly
What evidence do you have that the 2 year unaccredited courses, many with 100% pass rate, are ‘intense generalist medical training’? We also know much of the positive research about PAs was written by someone with huge undeclared DOI.
If a PA with a BSc applied for medical training or even nursing, do you think they'd get compensations for modules taken in the Bsc or would they have to complete the whole course. The undergrad is irrelevant.
@@AM-ff5qi I did the graduate entry program and those courses are full of people with lots of relevant experience, like paramedics, but they don’t get to skip anything. Ultimately, the skills and knowledge required for a medical degree aren’t comparable to anything else.
That's my point. I did nursing but I wouldnt expect to get credit & exemptions if I opted to study medicine later. I went back & did social science - & even though I did psychology, sociology & social policy in nursing - there was no credit given for my B.Soc.Sc. I couldnt walk straight into a social work masters either with just a nursing degree.
Interesting
There is clearly a shortage of physicians don’t blame PAs for this
Watch the video and I explain why this is a fallacy.
I would be sceptical of a doctor with a biased narrative, portraying colleagues in such a manner with selective ‘evidence’ toward the public.
I heard Dr will be replaced by AI and PAs will be there to check the AI’s diagnosis…
AI certainly has a role in health care, but I don’t think it will replace doctors. PAs wouldn’t be suitable to check diagnosis either.
How elitist!
I am a Band 7 Clinical Pharmacist who works under the supervision of a GP due to my role, I work within my competency just like Physician Associate. This nonsense of 'replacing GP's is utterly sad. Even after introducing myself and my title, my patients still refer to me as their doctor, and I have to stop them to correct them. They NEED to be regulated to ensure there is a level of consistency across the border to prevent under qualified PAs from working outside of their competencies. The NHS are digging themselves a grave by allowing non medics to join the profession, it should ONLY be accessible if students have a science background with a certain level of experience.
I can't watch this GP any more, it's sad that elitist attitudes act as barriers. There are some fantastic 'could be medics' but due to financial strain, lack of connection etc they are not given the opportunity. I agree there does need to be regulations put in place, but negative Nancy, stop with your attitude and outlook.
#supportPAs #GMCregulation
PAs can't work to their competency, as no-one knows what that competency is without agreed scope of practice. Financial strain and lack of connection are not reasons to create poor versions of doctors, but instead highlights how we need to work on increasing accessibility to medical school for those who want to but struggle to.
I have seen PAs acting inappropriately. Most are very good, but the blurring of the lines is dangerous for patient safety. They are not doctors... they are not even close.
Exactly
So you’ve seen PAs acting inappropriately. Not to say it isn’t true but it’s likely to have further context, and I’m sure there are doctors acting inappropriately also. There will always be competent and incompetent clinicians.
‘Most PAs are good’ and is that a bad thing? surely not. Competent PAs have worked hard, developed their knowledge within their teams and scope and go into work daily to do their best, as I’m sure other professions also do.
To state a good PA as a problem is clear indication of insecurity in my opinion. I would happily see a good competent regulated PA.
I wouldn’t generalise PAs as good or bad, that just misinforms the public. I think a constructive view and debate is important. And though it’s easy to be in one camp or the other, doctors misleading the public on this issue is creating more harm.
Thousands of patients come across PAs and most feel well served and likely to question the integrity of opposing doctors who misinform. Hopefully the Leng review helps clear the air.
By the way, there are medical schools, at least one in Canada that is only 3 years as well as unsafe doctors who have put patients at risk and have killed patients too.
Cool story bro
Wouldn't know haven't seen a GP in years they're scarce as hens teeth
Yes, although ironically there are many GPs out of work now due to government cuts and the ARRS scheme. Crazy! Patients want to see GPs and GPs want to see patients. ☹️
You're so condescending at 2:03. Rolling your eyes, the tone of your voice and all. So glad that the GMC will be regulating at 1:07 "these non-medics, they're not doctors" as you call them. As if PAs want to be doctors. It's ridiculous you keep spelling out the number of years doctors do vs PAs as if PAs are doctors when they're not. By the way, you should get your facts right before doing a video because Physician Associates was the original name before it became Physician Assistants and back to Physician Associates again. You say glorified title. Of course, they should have their title protected. How can you say a Master's degree studying medical modules is easy? So ridiculous. You can at least make your point by respecting "these non-medics, they're not doctors" profession. You should bring your concrete evidence to the flawed points you raised. And more examples of how PAs have caused deaths. If you have a problem with PAs being paid higher, then leave your doctor job, study the MSc course for two years and then get that pay. When you realise that their pay doesn't go any higher and that doctors are on a totally different pay body and climb up significantly higher than PAs, then may be doctors will stay in their lane, stop comparing their pay to a profession that is not even a threat to their prestigious degree and just get on with their jobs as they're putting patients at risk, wasting time bullying PAs instead of working together for patient safety while the NHS is in crisis. Utter ridiculous
Talk about hurt feelings. The never event rate with PAs was in a recent Scottish study.
The President of the FPA was found to be a medical school reject. The countless social media posts from PAs believing they went to medical school, boasting about being on par with highly skilled doctors, says otherwise.
Not sure why you have quoted me stating they are "not doctors" - this is just a statement of fact. An exam rate with continuous 100% pass rate suggests the exam is not very difficult. There are many more examples of how PAs have caused deaths, but I don't think it is helpful to list them all, many have made headlines. Doctors, or anyone who has been to medical school for any period of time, are not allowed to apply for the PA training, (unsure why this is, seems odd). As I say in the video, this is not about bullying, it is about patient safety. Read all the comments from the doctors who are confirming day to day concerns with how PAs are taking opportunities for doctors to train, replacing doctors and putting patient safety at risk.
@@DrSophieGP I didn't make a mistake quoting you. You're the one saying that they are taking doctor jobs and being condescending stating "these non medics, they're not doctors". It is important you don't leave out the part where you state that they're non-medics when they actually are. They're not doctors anyway and don't claim to be one. You're the one comparing "non doctors" training to doctors training when they're not doctors. And where did you get this information about a 100% pass rate? It better be from more than one school/source you've taken this from because I know that the PANE exam that they sit is not a 100% pass rate. And there are many examples of how doctors have caused death by far and I think it'll be helpful to list a lot more than the same story that you've mentioned. If it is about patient safety then you will stop bullying and condescending another profession by saying their exam is easy with 100% pass rate. Eager to see enough 100% pass rates to prove your point and work with the profession as part of the MDT to focus on patient safety as I am sure that patient safety is at risk when one profession is focussed on bullying another instead of working together towards an ultimate goal which is patient safety as you say. PAs aren't taking opportunities from doctors to train, the PAs in their training have also earned their right to be there as they too need training to qualify and be excellent PAs so that they're not scapegoated when they make the same kind of mistakes that doctors can also make. So just as Doctors need training, PAs need training too . The NHS is not for doctors alone. By the way, you mean some doctors "and not doctors" comments on taking training.
I think the role has got about 5 years left at most before its binned. Patients dont want them and increasingly doctors do not want to work with them or supervise them, especially the newer generation of consultants coming through now who are overwhelmingy anti-PA. You can't be a physician associate when none of the physicians want to associate with you.
Well are chance 4th july vote torys out god help us they get back in could be end nhs not saying labour be any better but just don't think could be any worse nean loon nhs dentist people ripping own teeth out victirian values
Yes, I’m just hoping at least it will stop getting worse 🤞🏻
Brilliant video. I despise the role of the PA so much
A.I consultations and diagnostics coming next.
lol good luck with that. Ever heard of Babylon?
Thank you for speaking out about this. I recently found out that the ''GP'' I thought I was seeing the last two times I sought medical attention from my practice was in fact a PA. He blurted out to me he's a PA after I suggested he orders a scan for my leg but he had to explain he doesn't have the power to do that and needs to consult the GP. I assumed PA was a junior doctor or something along those lines, but when I googled PA soon after I left I was flabbergasted. Your are absolutely right that their title is misleading and I'm certain there are probably hundreds of patients who are fully unaware their ''doctor'' is actually someone with a 2:1 in biology (best case scenario) and a 2 year masters masquerading as physician.
This is part of the problem, he should have made his role clear from the start.
To be honest, your story sounds made up and just a target on PAs.
Firstly, so many medical schools also accept people with non-science degrees including music now. Having a degree shows one is capable of studying and grasping and applying knowledge. GIve these people the credit they're due.
@@ThePushUKLifestyle It's not made up at all, but go off I guess it it makes you feel better. The issue is that it's not made clear from the beginning that these people are NOT doctors / GPs, and a lot of people including myself had no clue who we were seeing. I doubt a 'PA' degree is transferable or recognised anywhere else besides the UK
Sophie
The logic goes like this - There is NO chef in every McDonald - with automation, computers, AI, teenagers off the street can be trained to turn out perfect burgers to feed the masses.
In fact, in the military, 18 yo kids are trained to be Medical Corpmen and are the first responders on the battle lines.
If so, the logic goes, armed with computers and AI, prompts, folks can be trained to attend to the medical needs of the masses.
You only need a few trained chefs in specialty restaurants for the rich and a few specialty trained doctors for the private hospitals for the rich.
Only if medical care was as simple as making a McDonald’s meal
That is the goal - with AI . Even Doctors are now trained with automated Electronic Health Records throwing up prompts for Quality Assurance, Hierarchical Coding, and far more detailed concepts than they would routinely have brought up.
Like I said - for the masses, PAs will do You want Drs you pay in Private settings
Another shitty video bullying Physician associates and missing out half of the information on the role its self🤦.
1. There are two ways to become a physician associate the postgraduate which is 2 years and the undergraduate degree which is a integrated 4 years degree which I am going to be doing where for the first two years of the degree, I will be studying alongside med students doing the same modules and exams, then the last 2 years Id progress into basically the postgrad 2 years which is a very intense degree,
which some would say is harder than most of medicine, as med students have 5 years to learn all that knowledge and where Pa's have 2 years to learn a large proportion of that knowledge like having to learning 800 conditions in a year and how to diagnose them, although med students do get taught way more still, and thats why they are a DOCTOR and a Pa is just a physician associate,
2. To even get onto a PA degree its HIGHLY competitive, you need NHS experience like myself with 6 years experience in pharmacy and 1 year experience as a student nurse, you need a science related degree to get on to the degree, they cant get onti the degree with a german degree, so like biomedical which is similar to what Med students study minus the clinical skills, and thats why Universitys ask for the NHS experience also, for the undergraduate, you need the same sciences at A level as you would if you were going to study medicine to become a doctor.
3. they are there to help take the work load of doctors by dealing with the less enhanced cases freeing up doctors who have more enhanced knowledge than PA's to deal with the more enhanced and difficult cases, they are also there to help deliver continuity of care to patients on wards as junior doctors rotate through specialities every 3-4 months.
Yes mistakes happen like in every profession including doctors and nurses where errors have lead to deaths, and yes thats horrible, but one or two rare cases in many situations a Physician associate has helped save many lives isnt justification to get rid of the role or bully the profession.
Atm there is a real crisis and the whole reason these associate professions have been instigated like NURSING ASSOCIATE which are not nurses but can do alot of what a nurse can do, and nurses are happy for the help because it seems like the majority of nurses have the PATIENT as first priority NOT EGO or Money.
And thats what this about MONEY locum doctors who are paid £100 an hour or more are loosing money because GPs and hospitals sometimea dont need a doctor as they have them on site but someone who can give a helping hand to the doctors ans are cheaper for the TAX PAYER as a locum PA gets between £45-£60 hour.
The BMA bullying this profession reminds me of 1948 when the NHS was created, and the BMA tried at every opportunity to stop the creation of it, and NOT for patient safety or helping patients but because of the millions of pounds theyd loose from a free healthcare system, they didnt care that ppl at that time werw dying from basic things like infections and colds whixh are treated for free now to everyone, they just cared about the money, now its the same situations over 50 years later DOCTORS DRIVEN BY NOTHING BUT MONEY, POWER, AND EGO
I think it’s helpful to have a civil discussion about this. I do feel sad that there are so many brilliant PAs out there trying their best, but the system just hasn’t been set up to support them and ensure patient safety. In no way do I want to ‘bully’ anyone. I’ll go through your points to help try and clarify why many of us are so worried:
1. You do agree med students get taught much more and so then once qualified, doctors have to go through many more rotations, exams and additional qualifications in order to specialise, which is why it is a problem that PAs are replacing doctors on rotas and in primary care.
2. Many of the PA courses accept non-science undergraduate degrees, eg Swansea proudly admit you can apply with a law degree. The others accept science degrees including topics like zoology, which offers little help with medicine. Even biomedical science is not comparable, you can ask the doctors who also have a biomed degree. I did the graduate entry programme which was 75% made up of science graduates; none of them breezed through medicine!
3. PAs are supposed to help with the workload of doctors, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be what is happening on the ground and, in fact, they are often taking doctors opportunities for training and increasing workload pressures: www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-survey-finds-working-with-pas-is-increasing-doctors-workloads
4. if this was about money, doctors like me would be rubbing our hands in glee at the prospect of a two-tier system, where the rich pay privately to see a doctor and those that cannot afford see a non-doctor. There are genuine concerns that the role of PAs has been rolled out without due diligence for scope of practice, correct registration, supervision agreements and protection of junior doctor training.
PAs are a waste of taxpayer money. Patients dont want them, doctors dont want to have to work with them, the only people that are pushing them are the corrupt Tory govt and the NHS who get cheap labour which they can use as they see fit without any limitations on their scope of practice.
I just feel like if you are gonna have a civil discussion about this then there has to be the full correct information of the role and be a balanced argument instead of just crapping all over the role, missing out relevent information. And also I feel like doctors are not trying to fix things with the role they are trying to change the role entirely or get rid of the role all together.
1. Yes doctors have way more training and thats why they should always be dealing with the more enhanced cases, but physician associates do rotate through many specialities when qualified, same as doctors until they decide where theyd like to remain, although yes they are generalists, so they can decide to work in a different speciality, they are on the same rotas as doctors because they are there to support doctors and sometimes they dont need more doctors but more assistance with less enhanced diagnoses to free up their time for cases more suited to their enhanced knowledge, which is the same case with nursing associates on nurses rotas.
2. I agree yes maybe years ago they would take students from them type of degrees but if your keeping up to date, that isnt the case now, you need a science related degree and NHS experience or they wont even look at your application, and I dont think anyone breezes through medicine, but a biomedical degree, nurses degree, or pharmacy degree would give you an advantage, and as for the undergraduate integrated masters PA programme you cant say that isnt relevent as Id be studying medicine for two years along side med students training to be doctors before joining the postgraduates in the last two years.
and as for the 2 year post graduate degree, as you know most of what you learn in medicine is medical research which doesnt benefit any doctor clinically unless your thinking of going into research, the whole reason the goverment has announced this year that medicine will now be 4 years not 5 years for undergraduate as they are reducing the amount of unrelevent information you learn. What Physician associates get taught is 2 years of clinical knowledge and yes they are still dont have the knowlege a doctor has but they advanced healthcare professionals (band 7) with the same knowledge as a advanced clinical practitioner nurse or pharmacist who dont replace doctors either but take the pressure of doctors.
3. I agree there are issues with how the role was rolled out and what they can and cant do and doctors taking responsibility for the PA's actions and thats why regulation will be a good thing for the profession but doctors like yourself and the BMA are against that, and yes it should be the GMC who regulate them as the profession is a associate profession of the doctor profession, same as nursing associates with nurses, who are regulated like nurses with the nursinf and midwifery council.
4. The role its self has proved to be a successful role in united states for the last 70 years, where they are now called physician associates too not assistants as thats a insult to the knowledge PA's bring to the table, and they havent replaced doctors in the states? Yes there has been rare instances where GPs have used them as doctors which isnt on at all but this is why regulation is soooò important so they have a clear scope of practice.
5. They dont take learning opportunities away from doctors, atm there are only 3000 Pa's in the UK, so thats a overexageration, and Ive seen first hand as a student nurse, PA's freeing up junior doctors time for more learning opportunities because PA's can deal with most of massive workload which has been forced upon junior doctors which is by no means fair on junior doctors. What Ive seen is the BMA who pushed forward to restrict the amount of medical places and restrict the amount of places for specialities, which makes no sense but is by any means the fault of the Physician Associate profession, there is a current crisis atm and the profession to any doctor focused on patient care a saving grace
@@coreysmith1982
1. It makes no sense that PAs are on the doctors rota 'to support doctors', as they are clearly replacing a doctor on that rota, not as well as. We have evidence PAs do not free up doctors time, but in fact make the job harder.
2. I am keeping up to date with PA entry requirements, here, for example is a link to Swansea website which shows you need C at GCSE Maths & English (no mention of science) and either a 2:2 healthcare related degree, or a 2:1 in a NON-healthcare related degree (with some work experience). www.swansea.ac.uk/postgraduate/taught/medicine/physician-associate-studies-mpas/#entry-requirements=is-expanded . I don't understand about your comment about medical research I'm afraid, it is certainly not true at all that "most of what you learn in medicine is medical research." It is also false that the gov have announced medicine will now be 4 years.
3. BMA are pro-regulation, but like other allied health professionals such as physios, they have their own regulator. The GMC was set up to protect doctors from those seeking to muddy the role.
4. Whatever is happening in the USA has no bearing on here in the UK, but I understand they do have more of an assistant role over there.
5. Again, no idea where you get the information that the BMA want to restrict the amount of medical places and speciality places; this is the antitithesis of the truth. Junior doctors are telling us they are taking away learning opportunities (read some of the comments on this video) - we need to listen and we need to act.
I really am sorry that PAs are stuck in the middle of all this, when they are just trying their best, muddling their way through without agreed scope, supervision arrangements and regulation, but we need to protect patient safety; this is paramount.
1. Cant say there is evidence and then have no actual evidence to back up what your saying, but yh your most likely right to an extent because the lack of regulation (which is thankfully coming into place) prevents them from being able to independantly prescribe, but when that does come into place like a advanced clinical practitioner pharmacist, nurse, or paramedic they will be even more of valuable resource to doctors and patients alike.
2. your information is completely out of date, if you were keeping up to date you would see on the NHS workforce plan, that the goverment has announced that the undergraduate degree to medicine will be shortened from 5 to 4 years, this is the link to that information👍🏻👌www.gov.uk/government/news/expansion-of-medical-school-places-to-be-accelerated-to-next-year, they are reducing the amount of medical research and other irrelevent information in order for med students to become doctors faster something which my university has let me know about as am studying medicine for 2 years as apart of my undergraduate degree for PA👍🏻, and what you state about the postgraduate degree is just not true, they do not accept students with a law degree, or german degree or.... you cant just lie to state a point, and you say they say SOME experience, they dont say some, and it is HIGHLY competitive, so a student with more NHS experience will always be favoured over someone with none or little experience.
Also, the BMA did restrict the amount of places for med students, this is common knowledge, and this information is in the following link👍🏻www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748#:~:text=BMA%20meeting%3A%20Doctors%20vote%20to%20limit%20number%20of%20medical%20students,-BMJ%202008%3B%20337&text=Delegates%20at%20the%20annual%20BMA,on%20opening%20new%20medical%20schools.
Thankfully the goverment are now increasing the spaces to med school which am glad as the NHS needs more doctors.
You say that the role isnt beneficial to patients or the healthcare team, but thats simply faulse, quantitative and qualitative data from a reliable resource Ive attached which shows how wrong you are www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6359738/
You say that the USA has no bearing in the UK? But it shows another healthcare system proving the success of the PA role which has been around for 70 years, and no they dont do more of an assistant role, they are advanced healthcare professionals who do alot more than they do in the UK and that is the whole reason they have changed the name in the USA from Physician assistant to Physician associate, because calling them assistants is an insult to them, so please do your research before talking about something you have no idea about.
Also, of course the GMC should be regulating the profession as its associate profession of the doctor profession🤦♂️ same as the nursing associate profession which is regulated the same as nurses with the NMC.
Anyway, Ive enjoyed this discussion😂 but no matter what you or the BMA say Physician associates are here to stay and am glad to be apart of the role👌
Sophie,you have not done your research on PAs and they are not doctor replacements. If theyre used for that,they will make mistakes especially if unsupervised.
I’ve done a huge amount of research. They are not SUPPOSED to be doctors’ replacements, but that is exactly how they are being used by many trusts and GP practices up and down the country. This is why today the Royal College of Physicians has voted for all five motions put forward on the issue.
@@DrSophieGP then they are being misused by the NHS not a fault with the profession itself
@@scarred10 Yes, on the whole this is true. There are instances, such as the illegal prescribing of controlled drugs by PAs in Calderdale & Huddersfield trust, where the PAs should also carry blame for going beyond agreed scope.
@@DrSophieGP that isnt a scope issue which will vary within the law .that is entirely illegal regardless of scope.The supervision must have been nonexistent for that ro happen,our ward pharmacist would call that immediately if she saw it.
@@scarred10 It was apparently a common occurrence (according to the FOI info), so many must have known about it! 😵💫