I’m a PA-C (in the US) and have lots of thoughts on this. 1) The way we are trained is to eval/diagnose/treat the 80% bread and butter cases. That’s where PAs excel and the nice thing about that is it takes the load off the physicians (who nobody should ever argue against the fact are more highly trained, educated and have more practice) to take on more complicated cases. Of course there are PAs in the US who after many years of practice are able to expand their case load, but it comes with time, study and education. I always was grateful for my collab and supervising physicians who I could shoot my dx and plan to and were always available in the case of complicated patient cases. And when in doubt, we referred out to ensure the best care. 2) There’s always a lot of hate on the pay PAs get. We get paid a full salary right out of school. In my opinion, it’s ridiculous that residents don’t get paid as much or more for the work they do especially with the crazy hours they work. That’s an issue with the system, direct your hate and anger there, not at PAs. Part of the reason of the pay difference (learned this from a PhD in economics who did his specialization in health Econ) is that 1) there is a need to limit the number of physicians in the pool to hyperinflate the pay attending physicians get. Two, because PAs are able to be put to work without the residency aspect, we make the clinics and hospitals more money more quickly and the pay we get is less than hiring a physician so they save more in the long term. It’s all about the money at the end of it, as always. Hiring 2 physicians and 5 PAs to see the same number of patients versus hiring 7 physicians. It makes a huge financial difference, and since we’re typically doing those bread and butter cases in whatever the specialty is, physicians can take on the more pressing responsibilities that are not in our scope of practice. 3) The PA profession is wayyyy too new in the UK for it to be moving to less supervision so quickly. That’s alarming. 4) If you’re in medicine, you know that malpractice cases including physicians are far and wide and 98% of them never make the light of day because they’re handled by lawyers in dark rooms with big payouts and licenses are maintained. The number of cases I’ve come across with sheer malpractice and irresponsibility on the part of physicians is wild and I know physicians with similar stories. Just because a single case come to light ( I don’t know the specifics) in the midst of heat and controversy, it needs to be evaluated with more nuance and more questions should be asked regarding the actual case and what went down and was the issue truly the PA was acting outside the scope of their practice or were there other factors being overlooked due to media sensationalism. Maybe I’m a little passionate about this because I as a PA have caught the mistakes of physicians I’ve worked with more than a few times and thankfully corrected and informed the provider before anything could’ve happened but in the world of medicine where patients are pumped through the door like cattle, providers are overworked, burnt out and drowning in documentation, there’s a huge revamp that needs to happen in both systems in the US and UK. Otherwise, the shortage just gets worse, patients get less care and it sucks for everyone. Also in the US, it’s a little different, we are able to order diagnostic labs and imaging and prescribe medications. So we’re way more liable for our patients. I definitely empathize with you on the fear of now taking liability for patient who wasn’t yours because you have to order tests on behalf of someone else. Hope that helps!
1- Complicated could mean a rare disease, an atypical presentation of a disease or a patient with a simple case but with many comorbidities and factors to take into consideration, and when you take all of these into account there's no way that these make 20% of patients. 2- The politicians want to fix the system by introducing a mid level medical provider instead of increasing the number of medical students at universitas and residency positions at hospitals this basically is to take the patient classism to another level, we already have a public health sector for the poor and lower middle class, and a private one for the upper middle class and rich people, but the public one is so flawed and the only way to 'morally' fix it is too expensive, so they decided to just make the gap between the private sector and public sector even wider, so if it used to be that if you have money you'll get to see the best doctors and otherwise you'll see *A* doctor, now if you don't have money its not even a doctor just someone slightly more educated than a nurse. 3- The salary point is right in that it is cheaper to hire PAs instead of residents, but its not from attendings and specialists, if you look up the salary increase for specialists and residents across the years its very consistent, now look up the administration side of hospitals, their salaries have exploded, and this mid level thing is just another trick for them to make more money, so yes, it is about money, greed specifically. 4- The malpractice point is just illogical, doctors study more, train more and are put through a more vigorous selection process, so the idea that they could make just as much or even more mistakes than someone who is less qualified is nonsense. If you could use that point to prove anything it's to prove that the system produces too many mistakes already, it needs MORE specialization not less. lastly, I want to ask you about AI, because even though I know that doctors and specialists quite far from being replaced by AI, I still worry, but with the emergence of PAs and NPs it became quite clear that AI is going to replace (or at least substantially decrease the need for) all the generalists, so GPs and IM and FM doctors, but first the PAs and NPs, if you look at what chatgpt can do its already exactly the same job, if not better. So the system will need more nurses for the AI input and more specialists for a closer look at the AI output. the ones in between will be expensive overqualified nurses.
@@AymanAlmshaqbh we agree on some, disagree on others, you misconstrued some of my comments and your comment about being “slightly more educated than nurses” (lol) tells me all I need to know about your opinion and miseducation on PAs. Not going to get into it, my salary, patient outcomes and job satisfaction don’t change whether someone thinks I’m fit/educated enough for the job or not. The UK and US system are very different as are perceptions, roles and contributions of PAs in the US, so I hope you all find a system that resolves your unique problems. I have friends who are physicians in the UK and they’ve alerted me to the issues, couldn’t imagine the stress medical workers are under. As for AI, my thoughts are not too profound. I can’t imagine it taking away the human interaction or hands on part of medicine. I see it enhancing certain aspects, minimizing errors, offloading work on all of us. Like any evolution in technology, we’ll adapt. I’m not worried about it “replacing” PAs or NPs. If it does, whelp, whoever is worried better be one of the best so they stay onboard. Good luck on your medical journey.
@@AymanAlmshaqbh PAs are educated just like medical school but not to the same depth in the underlying pathology/ pathophysiology.That is very different to the nursing model of education.I teach PAs in university and am a PA while my wife is a doctor so I know how both curricula compare and neither are anywhere like nursing.
@alasryh total agreeance, as a senior MD myself in the nhs, I can say that the nhs service is crumbling. @Dr. Kenji, you need to be fair on certain statements on medical practices gone wrong compared to new and experienced MD's it is above the highest mountain compared to a pa at fault, I have had experience where doctors have been told by pa's and nurses that their diagnosis was wrong and they have thanked them from potentially getting barred. Most of my family members in my generation are MD's and have all praised the pa's that have been under their wing. We find that most of the newly qualified doctors are the ones who are finding it unfair that pa's are around doing roles just as competently as a qualified doctor. They will never be in a position to take away a doctors job, but if you take away that helping hand that eases the huge pressures in the nhs that doctors face then what will be your own realistic solution, a robot? Then the ruthless government will say this is way more cost effective we don't need so many MD's anymore, or pa's, or practices and that's where you should be focusing attention and energy towards which is the bigger picture in your future for you and all upcoming MD's and healthcare professionals.
Physician Associates like nurses and other healthcare staff are on the agenda for change scale. Doctors have their own agreed pay scale. Band 7 roles most often require a Master's level degree or equivalent. As the Physician Associate degree is a 2 years master's they get placed in this bracket. I don't think the question is why are the PAs getting paid so much. It should be why doctors are getting paid so little. Hope this helps!
This must be a British thing because PAs don't do any of this in the US and damn sure don't make anywhere near the salary of an MD or DO. Probably not even as much as an NP to be honest
@@darcymccabe-pb1se EXACTLY! Doctors in the UK are paid so damn little compared to the rest of the world. Rightly like you said even Nurses get paid more than PAs in North America
If the intention was to make the service more efficient then I'm sure no one would argue with that. But if the intention is to cut funding then that's a different thing all together. 'Sacrifices' will always be made. In this case, it is your health. Efficiency is the government's euphemism for cutting funding.
6 years in medical school, IELTS, Plab 1 and 2, F1 and F2, first 3 years in specialty training, more responsibility and on call but still earn less than PA 😂
I understand the frustration, personally as someone who is applying to PA, I agree that doctors should get paid more, however people tend to forget that PA’s have studied for 5/6 years too 3 years undergraduate and then 2 years. The government is messed up, NHS is failing. If they didn’t make the entry requirements so hard to get into medical school and so competitive there would be so much more potentials for people who wanna do med. It’s just all about grades and I think it’s unfair that they define people based on a GRADE.
@@saraasam6407 "PAs have studied for 5/6 years too" ? do you know how to read and count? read OP's comment again and count the number of years mentioned to become a doctor. hint: its not 6 years, in case you fail to do basic arithmetic again.
@@NO1xANIMExFAN they studied for 5/6 years 3 years undergraduate 2 years postgraduate Then more if they wanna become senior! I know how to count thank you very much, people who talk like you won’t get no where in life! Relax your self
@@alearningcentre6711 yes but the rate depends on your qualifications. Also locum has many downsides and thus why the pay is significantly higher. Even so, this rate still pales what almost all other developed countries pay locum doctors. Hence why almost all UK medical graduates either are leaving or planning to. This country is going to soon run out of UK doctors.
People who are thinking about DOING PLAB and going to UK, this vedio is for you. No one should go to UK this pathway. The amount of payment and this new issue will really mess you up if you are middle class aisan like BANGLADESH OR INDIA and come to UK.
In undergrad, in the United States, you have to take science core classes for the PA program. Chemistry biology anatomy statistics and some higher science course's like biochemistry upper level
1) Why the name change from assistant --> associate in the first place ? Only acts to artificially inflate trust in the role by blurring lines, an associate physician is a highly experienced DOCTOR 2) If you put multiple barriers in front of incredibly hard working and academic individuals who care about what they do, but don't put these barriers in front of less qualified people, what do you expect?
1. It was strongly suggested from within the DHSC that the term 'assistant' would hold the profession back from becoming regulated, as it was perceived at that time that 'assistants' did not need to be regulated. 2. I'm not exactly sure what barriers you mean but, the ceiling for progression for PAs is much lower than for doctors. However there definitely needs to be an agreed scope of practice for PAs to not take on opportunities and work outside their limit of practice.
Also, PAs know they are not Doctors, they are healthcare professionals in their own right separate from doctors. They do need to be regulated but maybe the BMA could focus on educating the public on what a PA is, instead of trying to get rid of a profession that is not going anywhere, and that is going to be regulated by the GMC, there is no going back on that one so maybe the BMA should be trying to work with PAs instead of fighting against them. We all know Dr's are experts in their field so they should be the ones helping to shape healthcare and being at the forefront of positively supporting healthcare professionals. I'm sure there isn't a PA out there who isn't supportive of Dr's being paid more and of more training places for them becoming available!
PA’s should be regulated by their own regulatory body. They should be renamed “Medical assistant” The word “Physician” should be removed. The name of PA’s and regulation by GMC gives the impression a PA is almost a Doctor, when the reality is a PA is far from even a newly graduated doctor.
@bmwhocking I think all valid points, but I'm confused why Dr's or Dr's associations waited so long to change things. There were numerous consultations up until 2019 when it was decided that the GMC would be the regulator, and the title would be protected as Physician Associate. It took until 2023 when an act of parliament was about to be passed for organisations like the BMA to say they weren't happy. Unfortunately it's now too late. So I think it's time to work with what we've got and move forward.
@@ashs298 The BMA was alwayse opposed. It got rammed though parliament by the Tories before the election. IMO Labour's best option would be to unwind that law and re-name the profession. That would leave the govt open to court cases for compensation from PA's effectivly sold the lie that they will be the equal to Juniour Doctors. The two victims I see are patients being sold sub-standard care & the PA's themselves who were effectivly the Tories attempt to break the back of the Nurses Union and BMA.
A few thoughts I would like to share in leu of starting my PA MSc in September. 1) I am under no illusion that I am a doctor, or will possess an equal level of education on graduation. However, I do know that I will study enough of the medical model to understand how to assess/examine patients with common ailments, and whenever unsure have the self-awareness to escalate. 2) Dunning-Kruger effect I hear you bellow? Alright, sure, (you don't know what you don't know) And I do agree with this, especially working with undifferentiated patients in Primary care and A&E. I feel PA's are definitely more useful in secondary care in that regard, especially when you see the curriculum that we study. In primary care anybody who has worked in healthcare can spot a patient who is acutely unwell and needs hospital admission. The difficult part is spotting the patients that "could" deteriorate soon, or a subtle sign/symptom of something more sinister like a cancer that prompts further investigation. On my PA curriculum, there is no module on Oncology/Haematology which I find absolutely baffling and NEEDS to be addressed if the role has any future in PC. How can you possibly know what to look for if you haven't been educated on it. I worked as a HCA for many years on an Onc/Haem ward so in that regard I feel I have at least some knowledge of the warning signs. Paraneoplastic symptoms in SCLC, Papilledema in Brain tumours, you get the gist. But you wouldn't be aware of this without a module on it. Further education is never a bad thing, and I think the role could really use some of it in certain areas. 3) I read through the BMA's scope guidelines for us and frankly I was disappointed. I am very much pro guidelines and regulation for the role to help with it's legitimacy. Scope creep is becoming a problem and it does need to be dialed back Imo. But what I read was essentially "Scribe (Can you navigate a keyboard?), Chase up scans/results (Can you operate a phone and encroach on ward clerk and HCA duties?), Venepuncture (Can you attack someone with a needle?, HCA's and Nurses did this on my old ward mostly), ECG's (Can you attack someone with leads, again HCA's did this on my old ward). This isn't good enough and everything listed I already did as a HCA with 0 need for even a bachelors degree of education, never mind a masters. If that's all we are good for in their eyes then why are we doing half the shit we do over the 2 years. The fact they didn't even consult with the RCPA when developing these guidelines says all I need to know. 4) As people have eluded to we also need to distinguish between new graduate PA's and those who have been on a specialty ward for 5-10 years. This is where Imo the BMA guidelines are unacceptable. F1's have more medical knowledge than PA's do, that is a fact. But you cannot tell me that a fresh faced F1, first week on rotation has more clinical knowledge than a PA that has been static on the ward for many years. A person who has likely been doing specific specialty procedures with no incident (I would hope) for a long time under supervision of the consultant. The new BMA guidelines would remove the PA's ability to do that. And at that point I have to ask, 5 years of experience and no incidents, is it really about patient safety or is this about ego?. We need to work together on this to help develop a scope that allows us to assist doctors and acknowledges our education level. BMA's consultant ward clerk plan is insulting. If this means expanding the PA degree and making them more thorough and stringent/stricter on entry requirements then I'm all for it. 4) Do i think PA's should be stealing away Jr Doc training opportunities? NO, but that doesn't mean PA's should get no opportunities. Do i think PA's should be on doctors Rota's? NO Do I think PA's should be holding the med reg bleep? FUCK NO, PA's are not overpaid, Juniors are underpaid
PA’s were created in the US & Canada to let medical practices see more patients &/or be more profitable. In the UK’s case, the Tories main reason for introducing PA’s was to lesson the power of the Junior Doctors Union. Which is really sad, fundamentally the politics behind PA’s in the UK was about union bashing. PA’s may still evolve into a useful part of the UK medical workforce. Fundamentally I will not consent to be treated by someone who has far less education than a Doctor, Nurse or Paramedic. PA’s should be renamed to “assistants” & ideally have the work “Physician” removed from their job title. “Practice assistant” or “medical assistant” would both be more accurate terms.
So inappropriate to even use the word HATE here. You can disagree with PAs or whatever but you can’t hate an entire group of people. Would it be ok for you to say- Why physicians hate nurses? Why physicians hate phlebotomists? That’s ridiculous.
I agree I think there should be clearer guidance for supervision especially for newly qualified PA's - I have seen a GP practice who offered a preceptorships scheme which involved specific training for a newly qualified PA in GP. I think in primary care it is very dependent on the supervision - as you can imagine even for a F1 you would want to be supervised closely. There are some senior Dr's who are putting PA's in difficult positions. I have seen highly competent PA's working in a practice for years and have been promoted accordingly. It is dependent on the PA/ amount of supervision contact. I am hoping when regulation occurs - they will be stricter guidance for newly qualified PAs. Regarding GMC - hardly any patients know what a GMC number is. I think regulation is a much needed step forward. I don't think its blurs any lines - a PA should always ensure they introduce themselves - in my experience this has been the case. The GMC have confirmed the choice of regulator will not be changed. This was agreed in around 2019 - however the debate has heightened in the last year. Although very unfortunate, I disagree with individual cases - as Dr's make mistakes too. I don't think it is fair to generalise to the wider profession. There are many cases were Dr's were involved in never events. Agreed working within the right capacity + supervision needs to be ensured! Dr's 1000% need to be paid more but that is not the fault of PA's. Other allied roles - speech and language therapists/ nurses also earn more than newly qualified junior drs. PA's are paid fairly - junior dr's are paid incredibly unfairly fpr years. Definitely I agree all HCP's should be respected :) I personally do not thin there is a plan to replace Dr's - there are approx 3000 PA's in the UK + over 300,000 Drs. I think there is a role for PA to positively contribute to patient care - as you mentioned longer waiting times, increasing ageing population etc. There is alot of work to be done - I think roles like ACPs/ PAs can help. The other issues will help ease tension - if Dr's were just treated alot better as they deserve!
Completely agree, there needs to be more differentiation between an experienced PA and a newly qualified one. A standardised preceptorship would help massively for other professions to understand the differing levels of experience PAs can have.
@@kurukulle5294 This was in 2015 - a DVT was missed by 2 GP's. My point was 1 incident cannot be generalised to a whole profession. All these cases are incredibly unfortunate. "Mrs H went to the Practice in summer 2012 with pain and swelling in her left leg. The first GP warned her of the possibility of a DVT and prescribed painkillers. Mrs H was still in pain and returned to the Practice a few days later. She saw a second GP who thought she might have a cyst behind her knee, and prescribed more painkillers. Mrs H remained unwell and was admitted to hospital nine days later. The following morning she had a pulmonary embolism and died."
@@kurukulle5294 "In the early hours of 20 December 2017, S awoke complaining of pain in her right calf, chest pain, shortness of breath, and heart palpitations and asked her husband, M, to call an ambulance. To save time, their neighbour, a taxi driver, took them to A&E at Kingston Hospital. She was triaged before being seen by a junior doctor, who noted the history of DVT but performed no examination of her calves nor an assessment of her vital signs. She diagnosed S with an ear infection, despite there being no evidence of any abnormalities in her ear or throat. She was discharged with a course of antibiotics and to attend for an ECG test. Over the next 2 months, S attended her GP as her symptoms continued.' The pt suffered an extensive PE.
I know nothing about medicine. But I have read around this subject. I wonder why the government decided to start the PA’s on such a high salary, knowing how little doctors are paid. Some people have asked in the comments section that we should be asking why doctors are paid so low rather than questioning the higher wage of PA’s. But doctors came before PAs so the question really should be the other way round. As I said, why is the pay for PA’s so high when the responsible bodies know that doctors are paid a lot less? What does that say about the value placed in GPs versus the value being placed in GPs. And why are they making the PA role more desirable than the GP role based solely on pay?
Easy way for the government to say they're increasing the numbers of healthcare staff. Should also point out that the role was taken from the physician assistant role in the US. It works very well there but it's very different. their training is much more thorough. They eventually changed the name to physician assistant here. the UK PA degree isn't recognised internationally so they can't use it work abroad like drs can.. There's a lot going on but I think it's safe to say if you change the name from "assistant" to "associate" it is blurring the lines in terms of who patients think they're being seen by. The gov are essentially filling the gaps with a workforce that can't leave when they want to. With the changing of the name as well, patients will think they're being seen by Dr. Further more the funding is a big thing. NHS England have ringfenced funding for PAs. A consultant needed more regs on his ward but when he asked for me, he was told there's no money to create a Dr job but there is money to employe PAs. Some of the senior staff are enabling this as well because PAs don't rotate so consultants are more likely to invest in a someone who will be there for more than a few months. The thing is a complete mess.
The same type of problems exist here in the USA with the PA/NP dispute and the residents or training doctors pay/treatment/responsibilities. Leaving the NHS for the USA at least isn't better or the grass really is greener on the other side.
Residents are paid by a set amount of money from the gov. PAs don’t follow that model. If you’re upset at PAs then you probably don’t belong in medicine. This is why being well rounded became such a huge deal in the 90s. You gotta see all your options before you jump into med school. It ain’t 2001 anymore. This is why the US regulates you like dogs. Because you would easily form a monopoly on healthcare overnight and just hire your gf as a nurse/PA/CRNA and train her yourself without any degree. This is the style of medicine in the 60s and 70s.
@@taffyterrier The crown trained medical practitioners are the best trained in the world at the actual job and not the rigors of navigating the capitalist minefields that the US trained medics has to face.
Most PA courses require a science degree, you can get on without a science degree but you usually have to have significant healthcare experience and the course is so intense that without that I would imagine a student without that background would not do well. Yes there should be more training places for doctors and they should be paid more, but maybe that should be separate to the discussion of the PA role. PAs have been practicing in the NHS for 20 years and maybe if more had been done to regulate them earlier and define their role this wouldn't be an issue. I think there should also be a caveat that the role of a PA in a GP surgery vs a hospital in terms of working independently is different. And there is also a difference between a newly qualified PA and one who has been working for 5-10 years. The solution to what you're expressing doesn't seem an easy one but the hate towards PAs is intense and like you say they are also trying to do their best for patients and also have specific training but it seems like they are being targeted as the focus of hate regarding issues facing Dr's that should be resolved on a higher level.
@@Chemistryxoo no, it takes doctors almost 5 years after the graduate from medical school to ‘catch up’ to the pay that PAs make. Funny caus a medical graduate is already more qualified than a PA ever will be, yet get paid less wtf.
@@varadillath4508 A medical graduate is a trainee apprentice with limited practical experience taking their first tentative steps to learn the trade under strict supervision and guidance.
@@varadillath4508 the thing is, a lot of people say like you, but they don't realise is that after those 5 years, the dr can then go on to earn a lot more for the next 20+ years of their career, whereas your "boo, down with the PA" PA in 20years time is still on the same salary. So, yeah...
@@ivo7418 that’s false. A junior doctor takes a minimum of 5 years to catch up to the salary of a PA since PA salary also increases once they enter the workforce. The fact that a medical doctor who is more skilled and educated to begin with earn less then a PA is the problem. Doctors should begin with a higher salary than a PA since they have more responsibilities and are also responsible to look after PAs
Doctors need to learn to be better leaders, practice teamwork skills, and most importantly, agree to supervise PAs. Doctors that refuse to cooperate with PAs are the problem. It's not like PAs need any of this extra drama.
@@esvedra2419 why not? Is caring about money bad? Especially since people are struggling to live in places like London especially with the current inflation crisis. Jobs which have higher risks and higher responsibility are paid accordingly. That’s how the world works. Because the UK went Soviet Union style by socialising almost every bit of the UK healthcare, it’s needed up slashing doctors salaries by half. That’s one of the reasons why no dentists work in the NHS anymore and on average why they earn more than doctors, it’s because they work privately, not because their job is harder or require more responsibility. In almost all other developed country, medical specialists earn more than dental specialists. I am a staunch believer in if you work hard, sacrifice a bit of your social life and put effort into school, then you should be rewarded for that sacrifice. If you don’t believe in that then you believe in communism. Or you’re just a free loader.
It’s simple. The healthcare landscape has already begun to shift in the last 10 years towards use of APPs and less use of physicians. This happened as private equity begun to take over hospitals, urgent care clinics and ERs. The good old days are over.
Why hire an expensive physician When i can hire a cheap PA Patients safety? PFFFFT BOHAHAHAHAH AS IF I CARE Private equity I can already see a future where 1 physicain leads 5 PA instead of residents
What's wrong with doctors? Even in USA doctors I hear they do not like the Doctorate Nursing Practice DNP. They forget that A mathematicians or psychologists they can be called doctors if the individual achieved a doctorate degree.
Those arent medical doctors and cannot use the title doctor in a medical setting.DNP isnt even a clinical qualifocation ,its often about education and used for lecturing or leadership roles.
If a doctor hates a PA… there is something wrong with the doctor. The person doing the hate is always in the wrong. Its a healthcare team now not a dr only team. Doctors that have this thinking are horrible to work with or upset they did a bunch of schooling and people are not kissing their feet like the old days. There is a reason a Pa education is popular and why the 2024 match had a bunch of open spots left lol.
Was thinking the same. The doctor mentioned in the video supposedly worked unsupervised, so why this named doctor did not supervise him as required? He was clearly biased, bitter and did not foster the right environment to properly integrate PA into the team.
I would also add because I have an MBBS I am essentially barred from going onto the PA 2 year course, this occurs in no other field (you can always retrain), Or even convert to being a PA considering, we have completed all their modules and then some at university, that pathway should at least be open for a FY1 doctor to earn 42k and work 9-5. It shows it is about REPLACING doctors IMO What do you think?
@@Sonia-ig9fj You haven't understood my comment. I mean for a newly qualified doctor to work in the CAPACITY of a PA. Either after doing the masters or by the virtue of the fact that we have done EVERY single module a PA does during the 2 years and more. In fact this is the reason they give for not allowing MBBS graduates to go on a PA course. If you didn't misunderstand me, I'm sure you also wouldn't want to blur the lines and bar nurses/post graduates from completing a medical degree ?
Can I ask why you would want to? Aside from the pay, surely doing an intense MBBS means you would want to work as a doctor not a PA, as while they work within medicine they are two different roles
@@ashs298 My brother just graduated, London born and bred and went to uni in London also. He got northern Ireland as his job for fy1, he would much rather be a PA at least for 1 year and reapply. I disagree they are different roles, in the way say a nurse and a doctor are. You are essentially just there to help the doctors as a PA, you can't prescribe and you are not regulated, pretty much the same job but way easier than a FY1 work 9-5 and have autonomy on where you live and work, don't think you can put pay aside also in reality.
@@nadiarosa7630 So yeah, I'm studying the UK and I'm currently in 2nd year (but I'm in exam season - so I've finished 2nd yr in terms of lectures). So 1st yr tends to be like MCQs (multiple choice), 2nd yr essays with some mcqs depending on the modules and uni and 3rd yr is fully essay/dissertation based. So my tips would be firstly - preread lectures before going into uni or watching the lecture - just to familiarise and get an idea. Then - try and make notes the same day as the lecture to avoid being behind (although this is inevitable) - e.g. I annotate PDF slides with things that are not on the slides that are mentioned by the lecturer. But this is only half the work. From these notes - you need to find a system of remembering this information (personally I use flashcards on RemNote) - preferably an active recall process - reading notes imo are highly ineffective without some sort of closed book assessment of the info you have learnt. In addition to staying on top of lectures, try attend seminars/workshops as much as you can as lecturers may give u some support in person on things you are stuck - but you can always email or meet the lecturer to ask anyway. Do not fall into the trap of pure memorising without understanding (unless you really need to). Also ensure your math skills are decent (e.g. the chem equations u would have had a levels) - there is quite a bit of maths too. Biomed is heavy in memorisation and understanding so with that in mind - these are my tips for success.
@@nadiarosa7630 I study in the UK and I would say that my advice applies generically to any course but for biomed the more u can remember the better. So like make sure you try stay on top of lectures (it's hard - and everyone will be behind) - understand them and attend workshops/tutorials/seminars because they can be useful to test your knowledge and potentially allow you to talk to the lecturer and ask for help. I recommend finding an effective way to take notes (e.g. use a laptop) - what I do is annotate slides and use the slides and my annotations to make flashcards with condensed info. Taking notes should only be to supplement the slides - don't fall into the habit of copying slides because it won't work - unless it's a diagram/drawing and your a visual learner. For yr1, it tends to be multiple choice and doesn't count to first years but to do well generally - understand the content and when u do use an active recall method (not just reading notes) to help remember the info. In terms of coursework - prioritise it over lectures if you need to because they are important to maximise the scores you get - you will have time depending on the uni to go through lectures - hope that helps - good luck ;)
When i’ll start working as a doctor, i’m scared of that exact situation u described. a PA pressuring me to perform tasks they legally cannot, perhaps with the justification of “it’s what the consultant ordered”. Does anyone have experience with handling that type of situation? I would solve this by calling the consultant to clarify and to state that i’m not comfortable signing stuff for patients i haven’t seen particularly bc of my lack of experience. But i’m worried that this could ruffle some feathers as in the PA being upset bc they think i don’t trust their judgement and my other colleagues thinking i’m miss self-important.
What I did in these circumstances was read through the notes of the patient to clarify. If I can’t find a documented plan from the consultant or a plan that makes sense to me medically, I simply say I’m not comfortable doing so for that reason and there’s never been an issue. This is the same case when I’ve had nurses ask me to prescribe things on behalf of a seniors plan. No documented plan (that I agree with), no prescription. You don’t necessarily have to have seen the patient, as long as there’s been good documentation. Also, people should never pressure you to do things, doctors or not. Always act within your competency and don’t allow anyone to rush you
As a doctor maybe you can answer this question. A doctor and/ or nurse, etc job is to help people regardless of age, colour or gender, etc. Some of these people specialise in an area. Why do some doctors/ nurses choose to work with children only? When a their job is to help PEOPLE? I can understand not wanting to work in a different area, but why would they refuse to work with adults in their area. How is a child with let's say diabetes any different to an adult? The care might be different but the initial problem is the same for both.
If I’m the best in the world at tennis that doesn’t mean I should go play baseball, can I???….. yes but to make sure we win doesn’t it make sense to go get Jose altuve?
@@abracadabra5636 a Paediatrician is a Medical Specialist who looks only at children. The reason is because children’s physiology is substantially different than that of adults. Especially neonates. Hormones are different, bone density are different, the way their immune system works is different, the way their body works is different.
@@varadillath4508 I know what a Paediatrician is. Childrens bodies are different to adults etc. There was one doctor who worked with children and ADULTS in a certain area. Because the initial problem was the same, only the treatment was different. When I asked the others why they chose to work with children only on the same area, none could answer. What would you call them? And they were all equally qualified/experienced on the same level. There have been cases of Paediatricians being found to be paedophiles. Just because you dont hear about it does not mean it does not happen. NHS has a problem of hiding things under the carpet, oppose to dealing with problems. These paedophiles, sorry paediatricians currently work at Royal Manchester Children's Hospital.
An analogous resentment exists with BEng engineers 'hating' plumbers and installation/repair-technicians calling themselves 'engineers' and making a better, less stressful, living in some cases. So I find it ironic, and understandable, that some engineers becoming PAs creates an analogous resentment from doctors. But at least doctors maintain their professional title and status.
@@wsxhyp progression doesn’t matter when a newly graduated doctor is more qualified than the most qualified PA yet get paid less until 5 years later. That’s just plain stupid.
Surgical physician assistants and surgical nurse practitioners are allowed to be in the operating room by themselves as long as there is a circulating surgeon work on the case. For example if you take a bathroom break the first assist fully takes over case and the 2nd assist becomes the first assist. It’s very uncommon for a back up surgeon to be a physician at least in the US. The cases where cases where a surgeon will assist another surgeon can be if a spine surgeon needs the anatomy he or she is operating on. It’s very common for urology to get involved in s general surgery because the ureters are always getting punctured. The issue with a majority of PAs is that medicine is just their “9-5”, they don’t have clinical and academic obligations like a doctor and there a-lot less conscious of maintaining standards of care in this every evolving industry. The fact that they make how much they make without the fear of losing their license and hospital duties is that are placed on a physician. Ultimately mid levels will only grow because they provide cheaper labor. The medical degree is going to become s leadership degree in future, in my opinion. While the non physician practitioners will be the first person you see at the hospital. Ps kenji, I’m sorry for missing the payment on the writing course.
Physicians advocating for a halt in Physician Associate recruitment, rather than advancing structured definitions and levels for PAs, seem to align with outdated, elitist Conservative values rather than prioritizing patient safety. It’s essential that we focus on progress and patient well-being rather than clinging to traditional hierarchies
@@AtifKhan-ir7oe Australia doesn’t have PAs and the country is doing fine. In fact more than fine, its patient safety record is miles ahead of the UK and has a much better medical system than the UK. Same with New Zealand. You don’t need PAs to provide good healthcare, you NEED doctors.
@@varadillath4508 Like comparing apples to oranges. Australia doesn't have a national health service and operates completely differently from the UK. If training more doctors was the answer, then we would have the best healthcare system in the world. Lack of training places and poor retention is the problem. Attacking other professions does not help solve the problem, these roles are here to stay and yes they have their flaws but creating toxic environments in healthcare doesn't help solve anything.
PAs are a patient safety risk. They need permanent supervision because the don’t learn more than the common conditions. Get these wannabe doctors out of here!
A Junior doctor in the UK is basically a residency doctor in the US, and although they are paid more than the UK junior doctors, you don’t start earning good money until you become an Attending Physician, and the US also have PA, but the medical associations have learnt to blur a line between the two professions, I believe that the US health system is by far better than the UK, so how about the UK let go of pride and learn from a country that has had the PA profession for over 100 years.
Doctors in the US have to work much harder for longer hours, get less holiday, can’t take 6 months off every year on full pay claiming sickness and don’t retire at 50 on a gold plated, index linked, taxpayer funded pension.
Ex nurse and current patient who GP describes as a "complex case". I refuse to be seen by a PA instead of a GP. I have multiple conditions including a rare one, and there's no way a PA could safely diagnose me. I did once have an appointment with a PA who i thought was a doctor training to be a GP. Luckily for me she did ask the GP for advice, but her lack of quite basic knowledge was concerning.
I think what this fails to encapsulate is the fact that admissions into PA programmes require a degree in health or life sciences degree, so that’s biomedical science, nursing, physio. Saying only 2 years experience feels short of the many years of experience some had had prior, a PA who’s newly qualified but has over 20 years of experience as a nurse is still a VERY experienced and knowledgable practitioner
I see your point, but in the last few years in the NHS I haven’t met many PAs at all who had a long nursing background. Experienced nurses tend to go for ANP roles, not PAs. In the case of ANPs with long nursing background I partially agree with you, although that is a whole other nuanced topic. I’d be interested to see what others have seen in their experience
PA's have been shafted. They were promised a career based on certain qualifications, did everything asked of them and now are being made redundant at a frightening rate - just because the all-powerful BMA doesn't like em. I keep hearing this '2-years training' thing repeated, but it also requires a undergraduate qualification in a clinical or biological discipline. Many PA's are qualified, experienced nurses, with 5 years of clinical training/qualifications under their belt. I never hear any problems or complaints about nurse practitioners seeing patients unsupervised. It's the same level of qualification, afterall.
I see many other videos like this and even though author says, im not biased, some statements blur the line as such.. Here in the US.. Both PAs (physician assistant/associate student) and Medical students have the same prerequisites to entire their program. Both can have a art degree or a science degree as long as they meet science prerequisites. Both are very competitive to get into.. (PA schools require prior health care experience, Medical schools may require research or community service etc.) Medical school is 3 to 4 yrs (3 yrs for accelerated tracts in GP/IM, OBGYN, Pediatrics and psychiatry which are growing in numbers).. PA schools take approx 2 to 3yrs the work force as a general practioner with the ability to specialize in any area.. Notably: PA schools are accelerated with only 1-2 wks break in between semesters.. thats what makes it 2 to 3yrs long.. The same for 3yr accelerated Medical school programs vs the traditional 4yr medical school programs which have considerable more breaks especially in the 4th year which can be used for research or subinternships and interviews for residences At the end of both programs, both PAs and medical students are GPs.. YOUR TRAINING DOESN'T BEGIN UNTIL RESIDENCY.. Residency training ranging from 3yrs for Family medicine or IM or EM to 8yrs for Neurosurgery.. PAs don't have residences and entire the workforce with limted knowledge with the expectation to grow that clinical knowledge and expertise overtime within their specialities.. Both newly minted PA snd residents are and should be supervised. As both gain more clinical knowledge, the more autonomy is given.. I don't believe a PA thats has been working the same specialty for the past 5 to 10yrs (except for the surgical specialities) should be supervised or micromanaged just as much as a resident who trains for 3 yrs is no longer managed after their 3yrs..
With all respect but please look into the requirements for applying for physician associate studies, there is no medical school in the country which will accept a student with a history degree no way I challenge you on this in the nicest possible way
@@StudentDoctorAntonioPatterson ebery PA on earth knows they arent a doctor and most didnt want to be due to better hours but less pay/authority/responsibility.I would rather be a doctor for tje tesponsibilty but started much later in life so PA was more accessible for me personally.
I live in edinburgh and my gp practice has employed three all under the age of 22 . They are acting as though they are doctors. They are not supervised and imo banned as they are a liability.
All physician associates masters degrees require a first degree in Biomedical sciences or life sciences at 2.1 or above you are wrong about them doing a degree in anything?
UK PAs are vastly different than US PAs. Way different scope of practice and training. PA training programs in the US are very robust and prepare the PA for high level acuity practice. As a PA in the US I can practice in any specialty. Further, we have NCCPA and AAPA governing bodies and board certifications in place. It sounds like the UK has a lot of growing to do if they want the PA career to grow.
“Practice in any specialty” is very misleading. Just like the creator said, PAs assist physicians. This includes the US. Also the pay scale is more justified to the amount of training for each medical profession
@@DFOlover1 how is it misleading? We literally can practice in any specialty. PAs in the US have great autonomy and in some states don’t need a collaborating physician.
@@DFOlover1It isn’t misleading at all. PA’s within the US can practice in w/e speciality piques their interest & can move to another if they want a change. They also have a lot of autonomy in many cases. The physician is not hovering over their backs. They can even open up their own clinics & hire MD’s & other medical staff to work for them. I very much rather to see my PA than my doctor personally. She’s amazing.
@@dtae7855 what you’re implying as “hovering” is a safety net against patient misdiagnosis and harm. Also it wouldn’t make sense for a doc to work for a PA since CEOs don’t typically make less than their staff. I’m sorry your experience with a physician was less than stellar, but your situation does not reflect the populations’.
For example, Any level of junior doctor need to help PA , now they are not provided extra time. and essentially pay is same. And if certain difficult or unstable patient they wont discuss or refer the patient. Now that means to review patient on his list than call Speciality than come back to own list of patient list and get the same money as they are getting. 😂
It does take to long to train unless you start immediately after highschool to go to 4 years of college and 4 years med school and thennn 3-7 years of residency by that time if you make it through you’ll be 28-35 years old and then you don’t even see money until you finished the residency your which is the 3-7 years hahaha
I agree with everything here. There could be use for the PAs such as taking measurements or readings but certainly not diagnosing. Also they should probably change the title to physician assistant.
@@Robertsmith001 are you ok in the head? that is why they dont have the ability to prescribe and order scans??? your issue and the majoirty of juniors doctors have a issue with pay - NOT witht he pas. at least they should not have.
because most surgeries don't have any GPs. One GP, 5 other ANPs , pharmacists and HCA is what a GP surgery nowadays. Where did they go? most want to work locum because they get paid more than £100k/annum otherwise !! Trouble is "to have more money and less work is an illusion "
PA's are just fine for treating minor everyday ailments. Once you cross over into a chronic disease state like diabetes, forget about it! I find it to be extremely dangerous!
true. the problem is that all that Prof's and Government and MP's they will never see the PA's - they will see highly qualified 20+ year experience GP from Harley Street in London, the rest can see the PA's
So why you do not change the system and make just doctor's associate? The NHS will save money of course and save time ! Why you still need GP and doctors?
One Dr don't do much even though they learn lot ( as they say ) about different subjects. We have tremendous amount of specialist. Most of They only know about their field. I saw a video that dermatologist doesn't answer how to manage flat line. In that majority of specialist gave answer wrong. Some say they shock patient. Some admit they don't remember as they didn't involve in those areas. Is it a valid answer. Dont know how to mx flat line. What is my point is. It doesn't matter how many years you have learned. Its about experience with patients and their practice. If someone (eg PA NP ) who have experience and then they are educated to practice in specialized field in medicine. I think they are better than Fresh graduate doctors. If you think PA or NP need to have more education. Simply enroll them in last three years of medical school. Allow health care professionals like nurses. Who have learned and have experience in taking care of patients. To enroll in mbbs degree last 2-3years and learn more. This way we will produce more qualified experienced dr. They will perform more better than fresh graduate doctors.
I am still confused why the government doesn't have money for funding doctor's and training but they can open a new faculty and specialist which is more unsafe for patients and funds them ?
Very simple they kill inteleqtual class. The goverment try to widely open doors to PA because their training is diffrent they have diffrent perspective they are less connected to medicine at all. So patients will be treated by not fully qualified people. I did not say not qualified. The same time doors for doctors are closed but teiir education path to be honest starts from childhood. A lot of books labs, training and after no chance for progress and job, deeply not fair. They paid a lot money to UNI. They spend best life Years for hard study and after they are push to change proffesion. Not fair.
First of all, the title is part of the problem. First it was physician assistant. Now they are trying to change it to physician associate, already blurring the lines and confusing patients. Next they will want to be called physician. No thanks. I’ll just call them midlevels if they gonna be like that.
why are don't doctor always demanding pay rises? There are so many other staff in the NHS who work just as hard or if not harder than doctors. I think nurses, PAs, HCA and Physios should be paid as much as doctors if not more.
I've been noticing shocking fall of quality of professionalism when seeing a GP in once exemplary surgery. Only recently, to my shock, I found out that while asking for doctor's appointment i was assigned to see different people who are actually not doctors. Would've been safer and more pleasent to see a witch doctor, i would say
We have PAs and NPs here and now nurses can get a DNP, doctor of nursing practice. What bothers me are chiropractors calling themselves chiropractic physicians
I’m a PA-C (in the US) and have lots of thoughts on this.
1) The way we are trained is to eval/diagnose/treat the 80% bread and butter cases. That’s where PAs excel and the nice thing about that is it takes the load off the physicians (who nobody should ever argue against the fact are more highly trained, educated and have more practice) to take on more complicated cases. Of course there are PAs in the US who after many years of practice are able to expand their case load, but it comes with time, study and education. I always was grateful for my collab and supervising physicians who I could shoot my dx and plan to and were always available in the case of complicated patient cases. And when in doubt, we referred out to ensure the best care.
2) There’s always a lot of hate on the pay PAs get. We get paid a full salary right out of school. In my opinion, it’s ridiculous that residents don’t get paid as much or more for the work they do especially with the crazy hours they work. That’s an issue with the system, direct your hate and anger there, not at PAs. Part of the reason of the pay difference (learned this from a PhD in economics who did his specialization in health Econ) is that 1) there is a need to limit the number of physicians in the pool to hyperinflate the pay attending physicians get. Two, because PAs are able to be put to work without the residency aspect, we make the clinics and hospitals more money more quickly and the pay we get is less than hiring a physician so they save more in the long term. It’s all about the money at the end of it, as always. Hiring 2 physicians and 5 PAs to see the same number of patients versus hiring 7 physicians. It makes a huge financial difference, and since we’re typically doing those bread and butter cases in whatever the specialty is, physicians can take on the more pressing responsibilities that are not in our scope of practice.
3) The PA profession is wayyyy too new in the UK for it to be moving to less supervision so quickly. That’s alarming.
4) If you’re in medicine, you know that malpractice cases including physicians are far and wide and 98% of them never make the light of day because they’re handled by lawyers in dark rooms with big payouts and licenses are maintained. The number of cases I’ve come across with sheer malpractice and irresponsibility on the part of physicians is wild and I know physicians with similar stories. Just because a single case come to light ( I don’t know the specifics) in the midst of heat and controversy, it needs to be evaluated with more nuance and more questions should be asked regarding the actual case and what went down and was the issue truly the PA was acting outside the scope of their practice or were there other factors being overlooked due to media sensationalism.
Maybe I’m a little passionate about this because I as a PA have caught the mistakes of physicians I’ve worked with more than a few times and thankfully corrected and informed the provider before anything could’ve happened but in the world of medicine where patients are pumped through the door like cattle, providers are overworked, burnt out and drowning in documentation, there’s a huge revamp that needs to happen in both systems in the US and UK. Otherwise, the shortage just gets worse, patients get less care and it sucks for everyone.
Also in the US, it’s a little different, we are able to order diagnostic labs and imaging and prescribe medications. So we’re way more liable for our patients. I definitely empathize with you on the fear of now taking liability for patient who wasn’t yours because you have to order tests on behalf of someone else.
Hope that helps!
1- Complicated could mean a rare disease, an atypical presentation of a disease or a patient with a simple case but with many comorbidities and factors to take into consideration, and when you take all of these into account there's no way that these make 20% of patients.
2- The politicians want to fix the system by introducing a mid level medical provider instead of increasing the number of medical students at universitas and residency positions at hospitals this basically is to take the patient classism to another level, we already have a public health sector for the poor and lower middle class, and a private one for the upper middle class and rich people, but the public one is so flawed and the only way to 'morally' fix it is too expensive, so they decided to just make the gap between the private sector and public sector even wider, so if it used to be that if you have money you'll get to see the best doctors and otherwise you'll see *A* doctor, now if you don't have money its not even a doctor just someone slightly more educated than a nurse.
3- The salary point is right in that it is cheaper to hire PAs instead of residents, but its not from attendings and specialists, if you look up the salary increase for specialists and residents across the years its very consistent, now look up the administration side of hospitals, their salaries have exploded, and this mid level thing is just another trick for them to make more money, so yes, it is about money, greed specifically.
4- The malpractice point is just illogical, doctors study more, train more and are put through a more vigorous selection process, so the idea that they could make just as much or even more mistakes than someone who is less qualified is nonsense. If you could use that point to prove anything it's to prove that the system produces too many mistakes already, it needs MORE specialization not less.
lastly, I want to ask you about AI, because even though I know that doctors and specialists quite far from being replaced by AI, I still worry, but with the emergence of PAs and NPs it became quite clear that AI is going to replace (or at least substantially decrease the need for) all the generalists, so GPs and IM and FM doctors, but first the PAs and NPs, if you look at what chatgpt can do its already exactly the same job, if not better. So the system will need more nurses for the AI input and more specialists for a closer look at the AI output. the ones in between will be expensive overqualified nurses.
@@AymanAlmshaqbh we agree on some, disagree on others, you misconstrued some of my comments and your comment about being “slightly more educated than nurses” (lol) tells me all I need to know about your opinion and miseducation on PAs. Not going to get into it, my salary, patient outcomes and job satisfaction don’t change whether someone thinks I’m fit/educated enough for the job or not.
The UK and US system are very different as are perceptions, roles and contributions of PAs in the US, so I hope you all find a system that resolves your unique problems. I have friends who are physicians in the UK and they’ve alerted me to the issues, couldn’t imagine the stress medical workers are under.
As for AI, my thoughts are not too profound. I can’t imagine it taking away the human interaction or hands on part of medicine. I see it enhancing certain aspects, minimizing errors, offloading work on all of us. Like any evolution in technology, we’ll adapt. I’m not worried about it “replacing” PAs or NPs. If it does, whelp, whoever is worried better be one of the best so they stay onboard. Good luck on your medical journey.
@@AymanAlmshaqbh PAs are educated just like medical school but not to the same depth in the underlying pathology/ pathophysiology.That is very different to the nursing model of education.I teach PAs in university and am a PA while my wife is a doctor so I know how both curricula compare and neither are anywhere like nursing.
@alasryh total agreeance, as a senior MD myself in the nhs, I can say that the nhs service is crumbling. @Dr. Kenji, you need to be fair on certain statements on medical practices gone wrong compared to new and experienced MD's it is above the highest mountain compared to a pa at fault, I have had experience where doctors have been told by pa's and nurses that their diagnosis was wrong and they have thanked them from potentially getting barred. Most of my family members in my generation are MD's and have all praised the pa's that have been under their wing. We find that most of the newly qualified doctors are the ones who are finding it unfair that pa's are around doing roles just as competently as a qualified doctor. They will never be in a position to take away a doctors job, but if you take away that helping hand that eases the huge pressures in the nhs that doctors face then what will be your own realistic solution, a robot? Then the ruthless government will say this is way more cost effective we don't need so many MD's anymore, or pa's, or practices and that's where you should be focusing attention and energy towards which is the bigger picture in your future for you and all upcoming MD's and healthcare professionals.
I don't get it why physician associate are getting paid more than doctor? If so, joining med school is nonsense.
Physician Associates like nurses and other healthcare staff are on the agenda for change scale. Doctors have their own agreed pay scale. Band 7 roles most often require a Master's level degree or equivalent. As the Physician Associate degree is a 2 years master's they get placed in this bracket.
I don't think the question is why are the PAs getting paid so much. It should be why doctors are getting paid so little.
Hope this helps!
This must be a British thing because PAs don't do any of this in the US and damn sure don't make anywhere near the salary of an MD or DO. Probably not even as much as an NP to be honest
I agree
@@darcymccabe-pb1se EXACTLY! Doctors in the UK are paid so damn little compared to the rest of the world. Rightly like you said even Nurses get paid more than PAs in North America
@@varadillath4508 nurses do not get paid more,its ANPs that average only slightly more than PAs.
If the intention was to make the service more efficient then I'm sure no one would argue with that. But if the intention is to cut funding then that's a different thing all together. 'Sacrifices' will always be made. In this case, it is your health. Efficiency is the government's euphemism for cutting funding.
for starters start funneling immigrants budget to the healthcare system...what is so hard for this to be understood by the powers that be..
6 years in medical school, IELTS, Plab 1 and 2, F1 and F2, first 3 years in specialty training, more responsibility and on call but still earn less than PA 😂
I understand the frustration, personally as someone who is applying to PA, I agree that doctors should get paid more, however people tend to forget that PA’s have studied for 5/6 years too
3 years undergraduate and then 2 years.
The government is messed up, NHS is failing. If they didn’t make the entry requirements so hard to get into medical school and so competitive there would be so much more potentials for people who wanna do med. It’s just all about grades and I think it’s unfair that they define people based on a GRADE.
@@saraasam6407 "PAs have studied for 5/6 years too" ? do you know how to read and count? read OP's comment again and count the number of years mentioned to become a doctor. hint: its not 6 years, in case you fail to do basic arithmetic again.
@@saraasam6407 yeaaa not 5/6 years. and no where near the same rigor as medical school. stay in your lane
@@ashsmart6895 why you so heated?
@@NO1xANIMExFAN they studied for 5/6 years
3 years undergraduate
2 years postgraduate
Then more if they wanna become senior! I know how to count thank you very much, people who talk like you won’t get no where in life! Relax your self
Doctors should be valued more.
If they did their own jobs and didn’t need someone else to do their work we wouldn’t end up like this.
@@FayeesAdamthey want to, that’s why they are protesting. It’s the government which isn’t allowing doctors to do their own job.
how about locum dr in £120 an hr
100%
@@alearningcentre6711 yes but the rate depends on your qualifications. Also locum has many downsides and thus why the pay is significantly higher. Even so, this rate still pales what almost all other developed countries pay locum doctors. Hence why almost all UK medical graduates either are leaving or planning to. This country is going to soon run out of UK doctors.
People who are thinking about DOING PLAB and going to UK, this vedio is for you.
No one should go to UK this pathway.
The amount of payment and this new issue will really mess you up if you are middle class aisan like BANGLADESH OR INDIA and come to UK.
Stay in Bangladesh and India. It's better.
@@jackofalltrades.9098 lmao Indians are the wealthiest ethnic group in the UK
In undergrad, in the United States, you have to take science core classes for the PA program. Chemistry biology anatomy statistics and some higher science course's like biochemistry upper level
1) Why the name change from assistant --> associate in the first place ? Only acts to artificially inflate trust in the role by blurring lines, an associate physician is a highly experienced DOCTOR
2) If you put multiple barriers in front of incredibly hard working and academic individuals who care about what they do, but don't put these barriers in front of less qualified people, what do you expect?
1. It was strongly suggested from within the DHSC that the term 'assistant' would hold the profession back from becoming regulated, as it was perceived at that time that 'assistants' did not need to be regulated.
2. I'm not exactly sure what barriers you mean but, the ceiling for progression for PAs is much lower than for doctors. However there definitely needs to be an agreed scope of practice for PAs to not take on opportunities and work outside their limit of practice.
@@yedann5457 the are assistants they are subjugated to doctors and are there to assist
Anyone of average intelligence can become a doctor in dumbed down Britain.
Doctors are overvalued.
@@taffyterrier A doctor is the reason you go to the hospital not the support staff the doctor is the centre of the medical treatment team
Also, PAs know they are not Doctors, they are healthcare professionals in their own right separate from doctors. They do need to be regulated but maybe the BMA could focus on educating the public on what a PA is, instead of trying to get rid of a profession that is not going anywhere, and that is going to be regulated by the GMC, there is no going back on that one so maybe the BMA should be trying to work with PAs instead of fighting against them. We all know Dr's are experts in their field so they should be the ones helping to shape healthcare and being at the forefront of positively supporting healthcare professionals. I'm sure there isn't a PA out there who isn't supportive of Dr's being paid more and of more training places for them becoming available!
PA’s should be regulated by their own regulatory body.
They should be renamed
“Medical assistant”
The word “Physician” should be removed.
The name of PA’s and regulation by GMC gives the impression a PA is almost a Doctor, when the reality is a PA is far from even a newly graduated doctor.
@bmwhocking I think all valid points, but I'm confused why Dr's or Dr's associations waited so long to change things. There were numerous consultations up until 2019 when it was decided that the GMC would be the regulator, and the title would be protected as Physician Associate. It took until 2023 when an act of parliament was about to be passed for organisations like the BMA to say they weren't happy. Unfortunately it's now too late. So I think it's time to work with what we've got and move forward.
@@ashs298 The BMA was alwayse opposed. It got rammed though parliament by the Tories before the election.
IMO Labour's best option would be to unwind that law and re-name the profession.
That would leave the govt open to court cases for compensation from PA's effectivly sold the lie that they will be the equal to Juniour Doctors.
The two victims I see are patients being sold sub-standard care & the PA's themselves who were effectivly the Tories attempt to break the back of the Nurses Union and BMA.
PAs in my GP practice have said they are exactly the same as a doctor!!!!!
A few thoughts I would like to share in leu of starting my PA MSc in September.
1) I am under no illusion that I am a doctor, or will possess an equal level of education on graduation. However, I do know that I will study enough of the medical model to understand how to assess/examine patients with common ailments, and whenever unsure have the self-awareness to escalate.
2) Dunning-Kruger effect I hear you bellow? Alright, sure, (you don't know what you don't know) And I do agree with this, especially working with undifferentiated patients in Primary care and A&E. I feel PA's are definitely more useful in secondary care in that regard, especially when you see the curriculum that we study. In primary care anybody who has worked in healthcare can spot a patient who is acutely unwell and needs hospital admission. The difficult part is spotting the patients that "could" deteriorate soon, or a subtle sign/symptom of something more sinister like a cancer that prompts further investigation. On my PA curriculum, there is no module on Oncology/Haematology which I find absolutely baffling and NEEDS to be addressed if the role has any future in PC. How can you possibly know what to look for if you haven't been educated on it. I worked as a HCA for many years on an Onc/Haem ward so in that regard I feel I have at least some knowledge of the warning signs. Paraneoplastic symptoms in SCLC, Papilledema in Brain tumours, you get the gist. But you wouldn't be aware of this without a module on it. Further education is never a bad thing, and I think the role could really use some of it in certain areas.
3) I read through the BMA's scope guidelines for us and frankly I was disappointed. I am very much pro guidelines and regulation for the role to help with it's legitimacy. Scope creep is becoming a problem and it does need to be dialed back Imo. But what I read was essentially "Scribe (Can you navigate a keyboard?), Chase up scans/results (Can you operate a phone and encroach on ward clerk and HCA duties?), Venepuncture (Can you attack someone with a needle?, HCA's and Nurses did this on my old ward mostly), ECG's (Can you attack someone with leads, again HCA's did this on my old ward). This isn't good enough and everything listed I already did as a HCA with 0 need for even a bachelors degree of education, never mind a masters. If that's all we are good for in their eyes then why are we doing half the shit we do over the 2 years. The fact they didn't even consult with the RCPA when developing these guidelines says all I need to know.
4) As people have eluded to we also need to distinguish between new graduate PA's and those who have been on a specialty ward for 5-10 years. This is where Imo the BMA guidelines are unacceptable. F1's have more medical knowledge than PA's do, that is a fact. But you cannot tell me that a fresh faced F1, first week on rotation has more clinical knowledge than a PA that has been static on the ward for many years. A person who has likely been doing specific specialty procedures with no incident (I would hope) for a long time under supervision of the consultant. The new BMA guidelines would remove the PA's ability to do that. And at that point I have to ask, 5 years of experience and no incidents, is it really about patient safety or is this about ego?. We need to work together on this to help develop a scope that allows us to assist doctors and acknowledges our education level. BMA's consultant ward clerk plan is insulting. If this means expanding the PA degree and making them more thorough and stringent/stricter on entry requirements then I'm all for it.
4) Do i think PA's should be stealing away Jr Doc training opportunities? NO, but that doesn't mean PA's should get no opportunities.
Do i think PA's should be on doctors Rota's? NO
Do I think PA's should be holding the med reg bleep? FUCK NO,
PA's are not overpaid, Juniors are underpaid
PA’s were created in the US & Canada to let medical practices see more patients &/or be more profitable.
In the UK’s case, the Tories main reason for introducing PA’s was to lesson the power of the Junior Doctors Union.
Which is really sad, fundamentally the politics behind PA’s in the UK was about union bashing.
PA’s may still evolve into a useful part of the UK medical workforce.
Fundamentally I will not consent to be treated by someone who has far less education than a Doctor, Nurse or Paramedic.
PA’s should be renamed to “assistants” & ideally have the work “Physician” removed from their job title.
“Practice assistant” or “medical assistant” would both be more accurate terms.
When another doctor or hospital manager gets sick or one of their family, they call up a senior doctor, not the pa.
DOCTOR! DOCTOR!
So inappropriate to even use the word HATE here. You can disagree with PAs or whatever but you can’t hate an entire group of people. Would it be ok for you to say- Why physicians hate nurses? Why physicians hate phlebotomists? That’s ridiculous.
I agree I think there should be clearer guidance for supervision especially for newly qualified PA's - I have seen a GP practice who offered a preceptorships scheme which involved specific training for a newly qualified PA in GP. I think in primary care it is very dependent on the supervision - as you can imagine even for a F1 you would want to be supervised closely. There are some senior Dr's who are putting PA's in difficult positions. I have seen highly competent PA's working in a practice for years and have been promoted accordingly. It is dependent on the PA/ amount of supervision contact. I am hoping when regulation occurs - they will be stricter guidance for newly qualified PAs.
Regarding GMC - hardly any patients know what a GMC number is. I think regulation is a much needed step forward. I don't think its blurs any lines - a PA should always ensure they introduce themselves - in my experience this has been the case. The GMC have confirmed the choice of regulator will not be changed. This was agreed in around 2019 - however the debate has heightened in the last year.
Although very unfortunate, I disagree with individual cases - as Dr's make mistakes too. I don't think it is fair to generalise to the wider profession. There are many cases were Dr's were involved in never events.
Agreed working within the right capacity + supervision needs to be ensured!
Dr's 1000% need to be paid more but that is not the fault of PA's. Other allied roles - speech and language therapists/ nurses also earn more than newly qualified junior drs. PA's are paid fairly - junior dr's are paid incredibly unfairly fpr years. Definitely I agree all HCP's should be respected :)
I personally do not thin there is a plan to replace Dr's - there are approx 3000 PA's in the UK + over 300,000 Drs. I think there is a role for PA to positively contribute to patient care - as you mentioned longer waiting times, increasing ageing population etc. There is alot of work to be done - I think roles like ACPs/ PAs can help. The other issues will help ease tension - if Dr's were just treated alot better as they deserve!
I think you raise a lot of good points!
Completely agree, there needs to be more differentiation between an experienced PA and a newly qualified one. A standardised preceptorship would help massively for other professions to understand the differing levels of experience PAs can have.
I don't believe a GP would fail to suspect a DVT in a patient presenting with calf pain though. DVTs are common, not never events.
@@kurukulle5294 This was in 2015 - a DVT was missed by 2 GP's. My point was 1 incident cannot be generalised to a whole profession. All these cases are incredibly unfortunate.
"Mrs H went to the Practice in summer 2012 with pain and swelling in her left leg. The first GP warned her of the possibility of a DVT and prescribed painkillers. Mrs H was still in pain and returned to the Practice a few days later. She saw a second GP who thought she might have a cyst behind her knee, and prescribed more painkillers.
Mrs H remained unwell and was admitted to hospital nine days later. The following morning she had a pulmonary embolism and died."
@@kurukulle5294
"In the early hours of 20 December 2017, S awoke complaining of pain in her right calf, chest pain, shortness of breath, and heart palpitations and asked her husband, M, to call an ambulance. To save time, their neighbour, a taxi driver, took them to A&E at Kingston Hospital. She was triaged before being seen by a junior doctor, who noted the history of DVT but performed no examination of her calves nor an assessment of her vital signs. She diagnosed S with an ear infection, despite there being no evidence of any abnormalities in her ear or throat. She was discharged with a course of antibiotics and to attend for an ECG test.
Over the next 2 months, S attended her GP as her symptoms continued.' The pt suffered an extensive PE.
I do like the balanced approach to the topic - we're all working towards the same goal.
I know nothing about medicine. But I have read around this subject. I wonder why the government decided to start the PA’s on such a high salary, knowing how little doctors are paid. Some people have asked in the comments section that we should be asking why doctors are paid so low rather than questioning the higher wage of PA’s. But doctors came before PAs so the question really should be the other way round. As I said, why is the pay for PA’s so high when the responsible bodies know that doctors are paid a lot less? What does that say about the value placed in GPs versus the value being placed in GPs. And why are they making the PA role more desirable than the GP role based solely on pay?
You raise very interesting points!
@@DoctorKenjiyea
Easy way for the government to say they're increasing the numbers of healthcare staff. Should also point out that the role was taken from the physician assistant role in the US. It works very well there but it's very different. their training is much more thorough. They eventually changed the name to physician assistant here. the UK PA degree isn't recognised internationally so they can't use it work abroad like drs can.. There's a lot going on but I think it's safe to say if you change the name from "assistant" to "associate" it is blurring the lines in terms of who patients think they're being seen by. The gov are essentially filling the gaps with a workforce that can't leave when they want to. With the changing of the name as well, patients will think they're being seen by Dr.
Further more the funding is a big thing. NHS England have ringfenced funding for PAs. A consultant needed more regs on his ward but when he asked for me, he was told there's no money to create a Dr job but there is money to employe PAs. Some of the senior staff are enabling this as well because PAs don't rotate so consultants are more likely to invest in a someone who will be there for more than a few months.
The thing is a complete mess.
They are not,its only the very jumior docs that are paid less since its a training role
@@Medmey24the US and UK PAs do exactly the same course
Nurses are important as well and not only the MDs are special in the medical field.
@@Mimi50995 nurses are wayyy more important than a PA.
the education of an RN and into being practicions is the only way to go ,,they are alot better educated and only do hands on experience...
It is harder for you to get onto a training post because of the overseas trained doctors who are being brought to the UK
Doesn't make sense what you say.
The same type of problems exist here in the USA with the PA/NP dispute and the residents or training doctors pay/treatment/responsibilities. Leaving the NHS for the USA at least isn't better or the grass really is greener on the other side.
The grass is a Lush Jungle on the other side for a Doctor 🤣🤣
Residents are paid by a set amount of money from the gov.
PAs don’t follow that model.
If you’re upset at PAs then you probably don’t belong in medicine. This is why being well rounded became such a huge deal in the 90s. You gotta see all your options before you jump into med school. It ain’t 2001 anymore.
This is why the US regulates you like dogs. Because you would easily form a monopoly on healthcare overnight and just hire your gf as a nurse/PA/CRNA and train her yourself without any degree. This is the style of medicine in the 60s and 70s.
@@samnnamani but most British medics would never clear the interview.
@@taffyterrier The crown trained medical practitioners are the best trained in the world at the actual job and not the rigors of navigating the capitalist minefields that the US trained medics has to face.
Most PA courses require a science degree, you can get on without a science degree but you usually have to have significant healthcare experience and the course is so intense that without that I would imagine a student without that background would not do well.
Yes there should be more training places for doctors and they should be paid more, but maybe that should be separate to the discussion of the PA role. PAs have been practicing in the NHS for 20 years and maybe if more had been done to regulate them earlier and define their role this wouldn't be an issue.
I think there should also be a caveat that the role of a PA in a GP surgery vs a hospital in terms of working independently is different. And there is also a difference between a newly qualified PA and one who has been working for 5-10 years.
The solution to what you're expressing doesn't seem an easy one but the hate towards PAs is intense and like you say they are also trying to do their best for patients and also have specific training but it seems like they are being targeted as the focus of hate regarding issues facing Dr's that should be resolved on a higher level.
Good points there!
There is no requirement to have jralthcare experience to get into PA corse.
NHS doctors are among the highest paid in Europe but provide one of the worst services in Europe. British taxpayers are getting poor value for money.
Aren’t doctors paid like 2-3 times the amount PAs are paid once they complete residency?
@@Chemistryxoo no, it takes doctors almost 5 years after the graduate from medical school to ‘catch up’ to the pay that PAs make. Funny caus a medical graduate is already more qualified than a PA ever will be, yet get paid less wtf.
@@varadillath4508 A medical graduate is a trainee apprentice with limited practical experience taking their first tentative steps to learn the trade under strict supervision and guidance.
@@varadillath4508 the thing is, a lot of people say like you, but they don't realise is that after those 5 years, the dr can then go on to earn a lot more for the next 20+ years of their career, whereas your "boo, down with the PA" PA in 20years time is still on the same salary. So, yeah...
@@ivo7418 that’s false. A junior doctor takes a minimum of 5 years to catch up to the salary of a PA since PA salary also increases once they enter the workforce. The fact that a medical doctor who is more skilled and educated to begin with earn less then a PA is the problem. Doctors should begin with a higher salary than a PA since they have more responsibilities and are also responsible to look after PAs
Doctors need to learn to be better leaders, practice teamwork skills, and most importantly, agree to supervise PAs. Doctors that refuse to cooperate with PAs are the problem. It's not like PAs need any of this extra drama.
@@esvedra2419 don’t be a PA then and be smart enough to get into med school on the first place
@@varadillath4508 Don't be a doctor if all you care about is money.
@@esvedra2419 why not? Is caring about money bad? Especially since people are struggling to live in places like London especially with the current inflation crisis. Jobs which have higher risks and higher responsibility are paid accordingly. That’s how the world works. Because the UK went Soviet Union style by socialising almost every bit of the UK healthcare, it’s needed up slashing doctors salaries by half. That’s one of the reasons why no dentists work in the NHS anymore and on average why they earn more than doctors, it’s because they work privately, not because their job is harder or require more responsibility. In almost all other developed country, medical specialists earn more than dental specialists. I am a staunch believer in if you work hard, sacrifice a bit of your social life and put effort into school, then you should be rewarded for that sacrifice. If you don’t believe in that then you believe in communism. Or you’re just a free loader.
@@varadillath4508 Anyone of average intelligence can get into medical school since the entry requirements were dumbed down.
@@varadillath4508 Doctors are overpaid.
It’s simple. The healthcare landscape has already begun to shift in the last 10 years towards use of APPs and less use of physicians. This happened as private equity begun to take over hospitals, urgent care clinics and ERs. The good old days are over.
Why hire an expensive physician
When i can hire a cheap PA
Patients safety? PFFFFT BOHAHAHAHAH AS IF I CARE
Private equity
I can already see a future where 1 physicain leads 5 PA instead of residents
What's wrong with doctors? Even in USA doctors I hear they do not like the Doctorate Nursing Practice DNP. They forget that A mathematicians or psychologists they can be called doctors if the individual achieved a doctorate degree.
Those arent medical doctors and cannot use the title doctor in a medical setting.DNP isnt even a clinical qualifocation ,its often about education and used for lecturing or leadership roles.
If a doctor hates a PA… there is something wrong with the doctor. The person doing the hate is always in the wrong. Its a healthcare team now not a dr only team. Doctors that have this thinking are horrible to work with or upset they did a bunch of schooling and people are not kissing their feet like the old days. There is a reason a Pa education is popular and why the 2024 match had a bunch of open spots left lol.
Was thinking the same. The doctor mentioned in the video supposedly worked unsupervised, so why this named doctor did not supervise him as required? He was clearly biased, bitter and did not foster the right environment to properly integrate PA into the team.
PAs require lifelong supervision
Go away wannabe doctors.
I would also add because I have an MBBS I am essentially barred from going onto the PA 2 year course, this occurs in no other field (you can always retrain), Or even convert to being a PA considering, we have completed all their modules and then some at university, that pathway should at least be open for a FY1 doctor to earn 42k and work 9-5. It shows it is about REPLACING doctors IMO
What do you think?
I think it will blur the lines between the 2 professions - I think it is best to have separate roles - interchanging will be complicated!
@@Sonia-ig9fj You haven't understood my comment.
I mean for a newly qualified doctor to work in the CAPACITY of a PA. Either after doing the masters or by the virtue of the fact that we have done EVERY single module a PA does during the 2 years and more. In fact this is the reason they give for not allowing MBBS graduates to go on a PA course.
If you didn't misunderstand me, I'm sure you also wouldn't want to blur the lines and bar nurses/post graduates from completing a medical degree ?
Can I ask why you would want to? Aside from the pay, surely doing an intense MBBS means you would want to work as a doctor not a PA, as while they work within medicine they are two different roles
@@ashs298 My brother just graduated, London born and bred and went to uni in London also. He got northern Ireland as his job for fy1, he would much rather be a PA at least for 1 year and reapply.
I disagree they are different roles, in the way say a nurse and a doctor are.
You are essentially just there to help the doctors as a PA, you can't prescribe and you are not regulated, pretty much the same job but way easier than a FY1 work 9-5 and have autonomy on where you live and work, don't think you can put pay aside also in reality.
@@ashs298 Also I found my medical degree to be pretty easy, loved it aside for occasional time wasting and being ignored on occasion during placement
This video was very useful, currently doing biomed and potentially looking to do post-grad PA course
Hi I'm starting biomed this September could u give me some tips about it??? Are you doing it in UK? If you are how can I do well in it??
@@nadiarosa7630 So yeah, I'm studying the UK and I'm currently in 2nd year (but I'm in exam season - so I've finished 2nd yr in terms of lectures). So 1st yr tends to be like MCQs (multiple choice), 2nd yr essays with some mcqs depending on the modules and uni and 3rd yr is fully essay/dissertation based.
So my tips would be firstly - preread lectures before going into uni or watching the lecture - just to familiarise and get an idea. Then - try and make notes the same day as the lecture to avoid being behind (although this is inevitable) - e.g. I annotate PDF slides with things that are not on the slides that are mentioned by the lecturer. But this is only half the work. From these notes - you need to find a system of remembering this information (personally I use flashcards on RemNote) - preferably an active recall process - reading notes imo are highly ineffective without some sort of closed book assessment of the info you have learnt. In addition to staying on top of lectures, try attend seminars/workshops as much as you can as lecturers may give u some support in person on things you are stuck - but you can always email or meet the lecturer to ask anyway. Do not fall into the trap of pure memorising without understanding (unless you really need to). Also ensure your math skills are decent (e.g. the chem equations u would have had a levels) - there is quite a bit of maths too.
Biomed is heavy in memorisation and understanding so with that in mind - these are my tips for success.
Best of luck!
@@DoctorKenji I've been watching non stop your videos regarding biomed they have been soooo helpful thank you Soo much
@@nadiarosa7630 I study in the UK and I would say that my advice applies generically to any course but for biomed the more u can remember the better. So like make sure you try stay on top of lectures (it's hard - and everyone will be behind) - understand them and attend workshops/tutorials/seminars because they can be useful to test your knowledge and potentially allow you to talk to the lecturer and ask for help. I recommend finding an effective way to take notes (e.g. use a laptop) - what I do is annotate slides and use the slides and my annotations to make flashcards with condensed info. Taking notes should only be to supplement the slides - don't fall into the habit of copying slides because it won't work - unless it's a diagram/drawing and your a visual learner. For yr1, it tends to be multiple choice and doesn't count to first years but to do well generally - understand the content and when u do use an active recall method (not just reading notes) to help remember the info. In terms of coursework - prioritise it over lectures if you need to because they are important to maximise the scores you get - you will have time depending on the uni to go through lectures - hope that helps - good luck ;)
When i’ll start working as a doctor, i’m scared of that exact situation u described. a PA pressuring me to perform tasks they legally cannot, perhaps with the justification of “it’s what the consultant ordered”.
Does anyone have experience with handling that type of situation? I would solve this by calling the consultant to clarify and to state that i’m not comfortable signing stuff for patients i haven’t seen particularly bc of my lack of experience. But i’m worried that this could ruffle some feathers as in the PA being upset bc they think i don’t trust their judgement and my other colleagues thinking i’m miss self-important.
What I did in these circumstances was read through the notes of the patient to clarify. If I can’t find a documented plan from the consultant or a plan that makes sense to me medically, I simply say I’m not comfortable doing so for that reason and there’s never been an issue. This is the same case when I’ve had nurses ask me to prescribe things on behalf of a seniors plan. No documented plan (that I agree with), no prescription. You don’t necessarily have to have seen the patient, as long as there’s been good documentation. Also, people should never pressure you to do things, doctors or not. Always act within your competency and don’t allow anyone to rush you
As a doctor maybe you can answer this question.
A doctor and/ or nurse, etc job is to help people regardless of age, colour or gender, etc.
Some of these people specialise in an area. Why do some doctors/ nurses choose to work with children only?
When a their job is to help PEOPLE?
I can understand not wanting to work in a different area, but why would they refuse to work with adults in their area. How is a child with let's say diabetes any different to an adult? The care might be different but the initial problem is the same for both.
If I’m the best in the world at tennis that doesn’t mean I should go play baseball, can I???….. yes but to make sure we win doesn’t it make sense to go get Jose altuve?
@@amvgiant9795 ?
@@amvgiant9795 did you read my comment, from start to finish?
@@abracadabra5636 a Paediatrician is a Medical Specialist who looks only at children. The reason is because children’s physiology is substantially different than that of adults. Especially neonates. Hormones are different, bone density are different, the way their immune system works is different, the way their body works is different.
@@varadillath4508
I know what a Paediatrician is.
Childrens bodies are different to adults etc.
There was one doctor who worked with children and ADULTS in a certain area. Because the initial problem was the same, only the treatment was different.
When I asked the others why they chose to work with children only on the same area, none could answer.
What would you call them?
And they were all equally qualified/experienced on the same level.
There have been cases of Paediatricians being found to be paedophiles. Just because you dont hear about it does not mean it does not happen. NHS has a problem of hiding things under the carpet, oppose to dealing with problems.
These paedophiles, sorry paediatricians currently work at Royal Manchester Children's Hospital.
An analogous resentment exists with BEng engineers 'hating' plumbers and installation/repair-technicians calling themselves 'engineers' and making a better, less stressful, living in some cases. So I find it ironic, and understandable, that some engineers becoming PAs creates an analogous resentment from doctors. But at least doctors maintain their professional title and status.
Doctors have much better progression, PAs are permenantly capped at band 7
@@wsxhyp progression doesn’t matter when a newly graduated doctor is more qualified than the most qualified PA yet get paid less until 5 years later. That’s just plain stupid.
Surgical physician assistants and surgical nurse practitioners are allowed to be in the operating room by themselves as long as there is a circulating surgeon work on the case. For example if you take a bathroom break the first assist fully takes over case and the 2nd assist becomes the first assist. It’s very uncommon for a back up surgeon to be a physician at least in the US. The cases where cases where a surgeon will assist another surgeon can be if a spine surgeon needs the anatomy he or she is operating on. It’s very common for urology to get involved in s general surgery because the ureters are always getting punctured. The issue with a majority of PAs is that medicine is just their “9-5”, they don’t have clinical and academic obligations like a doctor and there a-lot less conscious of maintaining standards of care in this every evolving industry. The fact that they make how much they make without the fear of losing their license and hospital duties is that are placed on a physician. Ultimately mid levels will only grow because they provide cheaper labor. The medical degree is going to become s leadership degree in future, in my opinion. While the non physician practitioners will be the first person you see at the hospital.
Ps kenji, I’m sorry for missing the payment on the writing course.
I think that all M.D.s should have the MD part visible in the hospital, should be a lot easier to know if the person treating you is a PA or DR
Physicians advocating for a halt in Physician Associate recruitment, rather than advancing structured definitions and levels for PAs, seem to align with outdated, elitist Conservative values rather than prioritizing patient safety. It’s essential that we focus on progress and patient well-being rather than clinging to traditional hierarchies
@@AtifKhan-ir7oe Australia doesn’t have PAs and the country is doing fine. In fact more than fine, its patient safety record is miles ahead of the UK and has a much better medical system than the UK. Same with New Zealand. You don’t need PAs to provide good healthcare, you NEED doctors.
@@varadillath4508 Australia and New Zealand produce highly educated, properly trained, competent doctors.
@@varadillath4508 Like comparing apples to oranges. Australia doesn't have a national health service and operates completely differently from the UK.
If training more doctors was the answer, then we would have the best healthcare system in the world. Lack of training places and poor retention is the problem.
Attacking other professions does not help solve the problem, these roles are here to stay and yes they have their flaws but creating toxic environments in healthcare doesn't help solve anything.
PAs are a patient safety risk. They need permanent supervision because the don’t learn more than the common conditions. Get these wannabe doctors out of here!
Doctors in the US are paid way better. I make more than this running an applebees. Thats crazy
🥲🥲🥲🥲🥲
A Junior doctor in the UK is basically a residency doctor in the US, and although they are paid more than the UK junior doctors, you don’t start earning good money until you become an Attending Physician, and the US also have PA, but the medical associations have learnt to blur a line between the two professions, I believe that the US health system is by far better than the UK, so how about the UK let go of pride and learn from a country that has had the PA profession for over 100 years.
@@NobleDon-rv6kc the firstt PAs began work in the late 60s/early 70s,not 100yrs.
@@scarred10 Well it’s still longer than the UK, so my point still stands
Doctors in the US have to work much harder for longer hours, get less holiday, can’t take 6 months off every year on full pay claiming sickness and don’t retire at 50 on a gold plated, index linked, taxpayer funded pension.
Ex nurse and current patient who GP describes as a "complex case". I refuse to be seen by a PA instead of a GP. I have multiple conditions including a rare one, and there's no way a PA could safely diagnose me.
I did once have an appointment with a PA who i thought was a doctor training to be a GP. Luckily for me she did ask the GP for advice, but her lack of quite basic knowledge was concerning.
I find your lack of ambition concerning. As a former nurse and now PA you should be able to use use more than half your brain cells please
PAs have a science background not history or arts
Not all of them
They do not need a bio science bacground but should.
lol - you would hope so, but lots of PA courses accept anyone now
@@boratlovesrabbits I would put anatomy and physiology as minimum requirements in an umdergrad degree.
@@boratlovesrabbits how about you apply and try to get in then genius
I think what this fails to encapsulate is the fact that admissions into PA programmes require a degree in health or life sciences degree, so that’s biomedical science, nursing, physio. Saying only 2 years experience feels short of the many years of experience some had had prior, a PA who’s newly qualified but has over 20 years of experience as a nurse is still a VERY experienced and knowledgable practitioner
I see your point, but in the last few years in the NHS I haven’t met many PAs at all who had a long nursing background. Experienced nurses tend to go for ANP roles, not PAs. In the case of ANPs with long nursing background I partially agree with you, although that is a whole other nuanced topic. I’d be interested to see what others have seen in their experience
Being a nurse does not make you a doctor equivalent
PA's have been shafted. They were promised a career based on certain qualifications, did everything asked of them and now are being made redundant at a frightening rate - just because the all-powerful BMA doesn't like em.
I keep hearing this '2-years training' thing repeated, but it also requires a undergraduate qualification in a clinical or biological discipline. Many PA's are qualified, experienced nurses, with 5 years of clinical training/qualifications under their belt.
I never hear any problems or complaints about nurse practitioners seeing patients unsupervised. It's the same level of qualification, afterall.
I see many other videos like this and even though author says, im not biased, some statements blur the line as such..
Here in the US..
Both PAs (physician assistant/associate student) and Medical students have the same prerequisites to entire their program. Both can have a art degree or a science degree as long as they meet science prerequisites. Both are very competitive to get into.. (PA schools require prior health care experience, Medical schools may require research or community service etc.)
Medical school is 3 to 4 yrs (3 yrs for accelerated tracts in GP/IM, OBGYN, Pediatrics and psychiatry which are growing in numbers)..
PA schools take approx 2 to 3yrs the work force as a general practioner with the ability to specialize in any area..
Notably: PA schools are accelerated with only 1-2 wks break in between semesters.. thats what makes it 2 to 3yrs long..
The same for 3yr accelerated Medical school programs vs the traditional 4yr medical school programs which have considerable more breaks especially in the 4th year which can be used for research or subinternships and interviews for residences
At the end of both programs, both PAs and medical students are GPs.. YOUR TRAINING DOESN'T BEGIN UNTIL RESIDENCY..
Residency training ranging from 3yrs for Family medicine or IM or EM to 8yrs for Neurosurgery..
PAs don't have residences and entire the workforce with limted knowledge with the expectation to grow that clinical knowledge and expertise overtime within their specialities..
Both newly minted PA snd residents are and should be supervised. As both gain more clinical knowledge, the more autonomy is given..
I don't believe a PA thats has been working the same specialty for the past 5 to 10yrs (except for the surgical specialities) should be supervised or micromanaged just as much as a resident who trains for 3 yrs is no longer managed after their 3yrs..
With all respect but please look into the requirements for applying for physician associate studies, there is no medical school in the country which will accept a student with a history degree no way I challenge you on this in the nicest possible way
The entry requirements for medical school have been significantly lowered in recent decades.
Actually you’re wrong. Graduate entry medical schools accept people from a wide range of non scientific backgrounds
If you want to be a doctor and do what a doctor does, go to medical school!
Anyone can get into medical school these days in dumbed down Britain.
@@StudentDoctorAntonioPatterson ebery PA on earth knows they arent a doctor and most didnt want to be due to better hours but less pay/authority/responsibility.I would rather be a doctor for tje tesponsibilty but started much later in life so PA was more accessible for me personally.
I live in edinburgh and my gp practice has employed three all under the age of 22 . They are acting as though they are doctors. They are not supervised and imo banned as they are a liability.
All physician associates masters degrees require a first degree in Biomedical sciences or life sciences at 2.1 or above you are wrong about them doing a degree in anything?
UK PAs are vastly different than US PAs. Way different scope of practice and training. PA training programs in the US are very robust and prepare the PA for high level acuity practice. As a PA in the US I can practice in any specialty.
Further, we have NCCPA and AAPA governing bodies and board certifications in place. It sounds like the UK has a lot of growing to do if they want the PA career to grow.
“Practice in any specialty” is very misleading. Just like the creator said, PAs assist physicians. This includes the US. Also the pay scale is more justified to the amount of training for each medical profession
@@DFOlover1 how is it misleading? We literally can practice in any specialty. PAs in the US have great autonomy and in some states don’t need a collaborating physician.
@@DFOlover1It isn’t misleading at all. PA’s within the US can practice in w/e speciality piques their interest & can move to another if they want a change. They also have a lot of autonomy in many cases. The physician is not hovering over their backs. They can even open up their own clinics & hire MD’s & other medical staff to work for them. I very much rather to see my PA than my doctor personally. She’s amazing.
@@the1reaper33 you can “assist” in any specialty yes but your autonomy and decision making doesn’t even exceed that of an NP.
@@dtae7855 what you’re implying as “hovering” is a safety net against patient misdiagnosis and harm. Also it wouldn’t make sense for a doc to work for a PA since CEOs don’t typically make less than their staff.
I’m sorry your experience with a physician was less than stellar, but your situation does not reflect the populations’.
I think hate is a strong word ... more like envy ..
For example, Any level of junior doctor need to help PA , now they are not provided extra time. and essentially pay is same. And if certain difficult or unstable patient they wont discuss or refer the patient. Now that
means to review patient on his list than call Speciality than come back to own list of patient
list and get the same money as they are getting. 😂
Uk is technically saying doctors take too long to train …
It does take to long to train unless you start immediately after highschool to go to 4 years of college and 4 years med school and thennn 3-7 years of residency by that time if you make it through you’ll be 28-35 years old and then you don’t even see money until you finished the residency your which is the 3-7 years hahaha
I agree with everything here. There could be use for the PAs such as taking measurements or readings but certainly not diagnosing. Also they should probably change the title to physician assistant.
"Assistant TO the physician "
@@MisterPete3 it used to be Physician Assistant before it got changed to Physician Associate - whatever that means
Doctors don't make mistakes?
Great point, get someone with significantly less training. That is the solution, right?
@@Robertsmith001 are you ok in the head? that is why they dont have the ability to prescribe and order scans??? your issue and the majoirty of juniors doctors have a issue with pay - NOT witht he pas. at least they should not have.
Are u in australia right now
Why are GPs employing them?????
because most surgeries don't have any GPs.
One GP, 5 other ANPs , pharmacists and HCA is what a GP surgery nowadays.
Where did they go? most want to work locum because they get paid more than £100k/annum otherwise !!
Trouble is "to have more money and less work is an illusion "
PA's are just fine for treating minor everyday ailments. Once you cross over into a chronic disease state like diabetes, forget about it! I find it to be extremely dangerous!
true. the problem is that all that Prof's and Government and MP's they will never see the PA's - they will see highly qualified 20+ year experience GP from Harley Street in London, the rest can see the PA's
So why you do not change the system and make just doctor's associate?
The NHS will save money of course and save time !
Why you still need GP and doctors?
One Dr don't do much even though they learn lot ( as they say ) about different subjects. We have tremendous amount of specialist. Most of They only know about their field. I saw a video that dermatologist doesn't answer how to manage flat line. In that majority of specialist gave answer wrong. Some say they shock patient. Some admit they don't remember as they didn't involve in those areas. Is it a valid answer. Dont know how to mx flat line. What is my point is. It doesn't matter how many years you have learned. Its about experience with patients and their practice. If someone (eg PA NP ) who have experience and then they are educated to practice in specialized field in medicine. I think they are better than Fresh graduate doctors. If you think PA or NP need to have more education. Simply enroll them in last three years of medical school. Allow health care professionals like nurses. Who have learned and have experience in taking care of patients. To enroll in mbbs degree last 2-3years and learn more. This way we will produce more qualified experienced dr. They will perform more better than fresh graduate doctors.
I am still confused why the government doesn't have money for funding doctor's and training but they can open a new faculty and specialist which is more unsafe for patients and funds them ?
Very simple they kill inteleqtual class.
The goverment try to widely open doors to PA because their training is diffrent they have diffrent perspective they are less connected to medicine at all. So patients will be treated by not fully qualified people. I did not say not qualified.
The same time doors for doctors are closed but teiir education path to be honest starts from childhood. A lot of books labs, training and after no chance for progress and job, deeply not fair. They paid a lot money to UNI. They spend best life Years for hard study and after they are push to change proffesion. Not fair.
First of all, the title is part of the problem. First it was physician assistant. Now they are trying to change it to physician associate, already blurring the lines and confusing patients. Next they will want to be called physician. No thanks. I’ll just call them midlevels if they gonna be like that.
They’re fake doctors who weren’t smart enough to get into medical school. Straight to the dole queue!
why are don't doctor always demanding pay rises? There are so many other staff in the NHS who work just as hard or if not harder than doctors. I think nurses, PAs, HCA and Physios should be paid as much as doctors if not more.
I think we all deserve a pay rise!
Nonsense
Doctors train longer and are more demand and doctors are the most important resource in medical treatment
@@citizen1l that’s not necessarily true there are many important workers in the healthcare industry , which without the NHS would fall apart.
@@jigglypuff5918 No other person in a hospital can do what a surgeon does without going to jail
It’s not physicians associates it’s physicians assistants
Loud and wrong
@@normanilyrics1311 Feelings hurt? PAs will never be equal to a doctor. Not even close.
@@medstudent10101 no shit😂their scope doesn’t reach a doctors. But they are valuable to health care especially in rural areas
@@normanilyrics1311 Of course. They cost less. That's great for providers.
I've been noticing shocking fall of quality of professionalism when seeing a GP in once exemplary surgery. Only recently, to my shock, I found out that while asking for doctor's appointment i was assigned to see different people who are actually not doctors. Would've been safer and more pleasent to see a witch doctor, i would say
Shipman was a qualified Doctor
Doctors are being replaced by crappy associates..😮
Physican Assistant...
Because they are a cheap!... This is not rocket science...
Tory logic of course
Doctors are ten a penny in dumbed down Britain.
no hate here but it just sounds like the existence of the role of a PA is an excuse to avoid training more doctors 🤷♂
We train too many doctors.
We have PAs and NPs here and now nurses can get a DNP, doctor of nursing practice. What bothers me are chiropractors calling themselves chiropractic physicians