This content is super relevant given the ridiculous prices of race bikes from the big manufacturers who make owning a quality rig an elitist pursuit....well done Cam, keep them coming.
Well said. On top of that the QC from the big brands are crap as exposed by Hambini. These are two triangles put together with good alignment compare that to the cost of motorcycles and cars the prices of bikes are out of hand. Thanks for the content Cam.
Exactly 20 years ago, an American made, carbon Trek 5200 (exact frame Postal rode), with a Shimano Ultegra groupset and Bontrager wheels (which were made by DT Swiss for Bontrager), retailed for $2,700USD. That's pretty insane...even accounting for inflation, that's $4,500 in today's money. Now you'll pay twice that for a Chinese made Ultegra bike.
In my cycling circle there is a lot of talk about this... prices, spares availability, being forced to 'upgrade' (change for the sake of it), prices are crazy for what you can get, will be get used to fork out 2k pounds (I am writing from the UK) for a tiagra entry level road bike? when 10 years ago we were getting Ultegra quality at race specs. I think we are witnessing a huge change in the industry, putting apart the fact that manufacturers are pushing the industry to ONLY supply whatever is most incompatible with what we had until recent (rim brakes, mechanical) they are forcing obsolescence at high speed to depart with our wallets, and forced obsolescence is a huge issue they should be accountable for - what are we doing with all the waste? Also in my cycling circle, there is A LOT more appetite to try Chinese groupsets, the big brands Shimano, SRAM, Campagnolo... might have shot their own foot with their recent business decisions and they are creating a HUGE market for these Chinese brands, as soon as they go through a second generation of product development I am sure they will be much more common in the West and it's going to hurt the big brands...
Haters are always insecure, like Cam said, it saves lots of money for someone who doesn’t have that much budget to built some nice bike. Keep up the content for us viewers who enjoy and learn something new not just for well known brand but also alternative and quality brand bike frame and parts.
Confident people know that if you want something you got to save up for it. It's a choice. Insecure people say it's too hard, and I can never afford that... If you say you cannot afford it, wouldn't you say you can say that you *_can_* afford it too? If you got a pulse, it means you got choices and I'm only responsible for myself.
@@gersonFls7 Most people tell themselves quality does not exist, so they will remain unfullfilled in life. It's selfpity talking and all too common. In the long run it cost less to own something that cost more if you've just cared enough to find your own true needs, and find the quality you feel is needed and that will not interfear with anything more important. It's expensive to buy cheap all the time, because you build a desire to just buy more shit because you think you actually have saved money, and in the longrun you just end up throwing away money on trash items you don't really want in the first place. This is how the rich become richer, and the poor remain poor. So, go the distance and pay for quality is my advice. I'd rather have less but good quality items in my life, because I will care more about them and make them last longer. Pay once, and with money you own.
I would argue this content is some of the most valuable cycling content in the space at the moment. TH-cam's like Tracevelo have brought forward the idea of Cheap Chinese carbon builds to the forefront and Francis doing bits here and there as well but these builds from a technical standpoint offer a ton to the average Joe and are rewriting how we approach cycling marketing and brands now. Love the content!
I thoroughly enjoyed the video and your experimentation with the Chinese bikes. I have ordered a few myself over the years and you nailed it when you said they are hit and miss. I have had some great ones and some where the rear triangle was crooked. I am one of those not willing to spend 10k on a bike. Thanks again!
So what did you do with the ones that didn't work out? I'm interested but couldn't you argue that if you had to trash those bikes the price gets pretty comparable to a solid bike like one from Canyon?
@@jackwright3098 Great question! I have found that I can buy 4 new frames from China before I hit the price of a brand new frame from the name brands. I have really only had one lemon from China and the other 7 or 8 were perfect. I enjoy buying and building up bikes so that is why I have experienced so many. Now many of the Chinese brands have some sort of warranty but even if they do not, you can buy 4 frames before you get to the cost of 1 name brand frame. Riding a Chinese frame, I do not have the fear of a frame breaking like I would if I was riding a name brand who may try to shaft me with their warranty fine print.
@@BlackWaterCyclist hey thanks for the reply. So you're not worried about the qc when you're going fast downhill? You could definitely have the same issues with a named brand but people have just made me paranoid maybe regarding Chinese manufacturers.
@@BlackWaterCyclist The problem is, if you have the money to buy 4, 8 or 10 or whatever Chinese frames in the hope one of them is good then you have the money to buy one frame that you'll know will be good and may as well do that. If the only downside to buying a known good frame is "might have spent a bit too much money" then you've lost nothing and you'd be better spending your time and energy finding ways to make money than buying multiple frames. What typically happens for someone who isn't just playing on their youtube channel is that they don't have the money to buy multiple Chinese frames and they don't have the money to buy the expensive frame, and they're attracted to the idea of getting a bargain from China. If they get a lemon they're left with nothing, out of pocket and living in regret sans a bike (that's without even taking into account the very real possibility that they discover the 'lemon' carbon parts when they break as they are riding along - because they don't have the money to take everything along to some carbon fibre specialist to xray either) So that's the flaw - playing at being poor and buying cheap products isn't the same as being poor. That person who genuinely cannot afford to take the hit if a cheap carbon frame is a lemon really needs to buy a known good quality metal frame or a used bike - because the hunt for non-lemons from China is a game they can't afford to play, in the same way the S-work frame is a game they can't afford.
Man, that Elves frame looks great! I'm rolling on a Trek Emonda SL7 and I still love the look of it. I reckon the Elves + Sensah set would make an amazingly flash cheaper bike for racing/commuting, something you wouldn't be too concerned about.
I've really enjoyed watching the Chinese bike frame series, very relevant at a time where the big brands have lost the plot with the amount of money they are charging for a push bike (Specialized) outragious for example.
Loved this video. My road bike I built up myself is a china carbon frame. After putting good quality, albeit used, components (Mostly sram red stuff), It weighs in at 14.6lbs. I.E. Lighter than the brand new Tarmac SL7. I have put a little over 3000 miles on it. It is still solid. Love riding it.
I'm so glad that the viewers chose that frame because it is WAY sexier than the other frame. Super nice paint job and I love the colors and the color change. Can't wait to see how this build comes along. On a side note, I love these Chinese bike videos. Yes, they make some poor quality stuff, but they also make some really good quality stuff, and it's thanks to people like you that we don't have to spend our hard-earned money to know the difference. In another year or so I plan on buying what will probably be my last bike (I'm not a young man anymore), and I'm going Chinese all the way. I want the most bang for my buck while still having a great looking and great performing bike. So keep it up and don't mind the haters, they can buy the $10,000 bikes and leave the smart choices to the rest of us.
As a Chinese I must say I've never heard of nor saw Trifox frame until I watch this video😂 Elves is quite popular among the "budget brands" though, lots of college students do custom builds with Elves or Upland frames. Winspace are quite rare, we know they focus on the foreign market(especially SEA). A few years ago Winspace had tried to introduce itself to Chinese domestic market but its frames have some quality issues then and they end up with a bad reputation in China.
@@jaaxc1036 Many people in mainland China regard Giant and Merida as Chinese brands. The market share and number of stores of these two brands are overwhelming in mainland China. If these two Taiwanese brands are not counted, Parous should be the "top brand" in enthusiastic bike market. There are also some small brands that have made good progress in focusing on cost performance. Most of the carbon fiber frames of these products use slightly modified designs of other brands, and are manufactured by factories in Guangdong.
I've only bought one, an ICAN A10. It is really good. Hambini had a good one too. The details are better than my Tarmac. The Elves ones have great paint jobs.
I do appreciate the 'Chinese' bike builds, as someone who'd like to build up a bike in the future, i feel that the cheaper parts etc are a good place for me to start that first build.
99% of the high price frames and forks are made out of China the last 12 years. They then ship to Taiwan for logistics and less dumping taxes. 100% of dentists dont know this fact. I currently own over 40 high end road bikes and work on bikes daily as a mechanic when in Australia. The Trifox X16 rim brake is an incredible machine. I sold my SL7 S-Works after the first ride. The S-Works SL7 you see being ridden by big name riders is a different frame and fork. This has been confirmed to me by a team mechanic and video proof. It is hilarious how most cyclists are conned by these big brands. Just look at the prices they charge now for frames made in the same industrial estate as these brands Cam features.
Dentists also know that if the fork breaks because of a defect and your teeth are knocked out, you want a name-brand OEM so you can sue them for damages.
elves seem to know what they're doing. francis cade built one up a few days ago, just over 6kg. there was a cable holder with "cervelo" on it, so they could in theory produce cervelo bikes, but who knows. anyway great to see where your content is going, love the high effort videos relevant to things people care about. keep it coming!
Absolutely worth doing this content Cam, point 2 for the win! Yes bikes have become ridiculously priced and cannot justify the money with a straight face. But until the market, ie us, show them its not on they will of course continue. We do that with taking our business elsewhere and that's where you come in. Thanks for looking at the options because point 3 is spot on too.
Ignore the critics.... i agree 100% with you. I love bikes, racing and riding for 30 years and the cost is now outrageous!! I am certainly interested in finding more out about alternatives without having to actually spend the money myself. We also all know that nearly all big brand names are made in China and in many case's the same factory!!! Keep them coming!!!!
Honestly as someone who's looking at building their own bike for the first time this kind of content is super helpful. Just standalone frames from the bigger names start around $2500. To see something like the Elves frame have an amazing paint job and good build quality for less than half the price is a no brainer. Especially for the average rider who's just does local rides and events.
I bought an Elves Vanyar (their "lightweight" road bike) a couple of years ago. Not sure if they still do it but at the time custom paint was free. I got my design painted in three colors, one of them a chameleon paint like on your frame. It is beautiful and the best bike I've owned. It's not the cheapest Chinese frame but it's worth it and a way better deal than the mainstream bike brands.
I love this series already! I bought an Elves Vanyar frame a couple of months ago, for the same reasons you mentioned in the video and it’s great to see that more and more people are discovering this great brand and frames. It’s a lovely ride for a sensible price.
Keep up the content on the Chinese made bikes. For the first time in awhile I’m looking at buying another bike and I’m blown away by the prices. Getting a mid level ultegra bike now with a decent wheel set from one of the big brands is close to 7k! I think these are a great option for those who still want a quality bike at a better price! I’m actually looking at the winspace stuff.
Three VERY good reasons!! These types of video reviewing this type of frames r rare. Especially from a perspective of some one like you who also experiences the more higher end main stream brands like Specialized, Cannondale and the likes of it. Hope you continue to review both mainstream and Chinese brands. Not just either one.😊👍🏽
Got a 2010 Chinerelo S3 from DHgate back in 2012 and came with carbon frame and fork for 500 bucks and haven't had any problems still ride every week and no cracks or noodling. It's NOW 2022 And my cheap carbon Chinese bike is STILL GOING STRONG!!!!!!
Anyone presenting affordable bikes and tech in todays market of inflating prices and sensibly comparing them with respect to their ups and downs has my support. Keep up the good work! 👍 I did my own build two years ago and just went with a little older tech. I ended up with a well working bike many would have lusted after three years before but at a fraction of the cost. Beeing a few years older puts such things into perspective too, just dont go oberboard and fall for nostalgia instead.
I'm 65 this year and I want a nice light weight bike I don't have to pay a arm and leg for . If its Chinese so be it . I'm glad you are doing the off brands bike . You get a lot more people watching your videos because its something we might be able to afford . Don't worry about what the bike snobs are saying . Keep helping the regular people . There are a lot more of use vs the snobs .
I’d say all of the frames are hit or miss really I think that’s the main difference with say giant whose we means each frameset will be a similar quality
Well done! Don't stop, this is the right direction. I have been studying the market of Chinese bicycle manufacturers for more than a year. I assembled a bike on the cheapest frameset and wheels from Seraph. He painted himself, corrected the production defect. I am satisfied with the result.Now I'm looking at ELVES and DARE. If I visit Australia, I would be glad to meet you.
I appreciate what you do very much. I am new to cycling and no way I can afford a 10,000 bike. I am not oppose to a Chinese made bike and you providing this content makes the process of purchasing a bike SO much easier. Ignore the negative people and continue with your content. Cheers
Spot on Cam. I cannot even imagine new bike day being a reality these days. I bought my Addict in 2015, full dura ace and all the bits for a price well below the ticket price of $8K (helps to have friends that own bike shops), but I "window shop" now for similarly specced machines, and there's nothing south of $15K. It's not even a joke anymore, and I fear that cycling is becoming such an exclusive domain, it won't be long before families can't afford to buy a Kmart cheapie for the kids. Your content is always relevant, and always interesting, and no doubt for every person knocking what you do, you'd have a dozen with both thumbs up. Looking forward to the Sensah reveal! 👍👍
I have a chinese carbon 29er frame I bought from someone that ordered 2. He kept one that was bigger, sold the other small/medium to me. It's near a match to a specialized or scott HT carbon frame with thru axle rear. I have about 2500 or more of very hard racing and mountain biking miles on the frame. Several 6 hour races, a few hundred mile races, It has no cracks, no issues. Beat to hell really. Raced it with carbon seat post, carbon bars, carbon specialized wheels and it comes in at just around or under 20 lbs. A super fast compliant race bike. I paid $500.00 bucks for the frame. There are options out there. Thanks Cam for showing the world we don't need to spend 10k on any bicycle.
Kudos to this video! Coming from the Philippines. I can say that these types of videos are fun to watch as it is very informative, timely, valuable, and relevant as we are often offered with these kinds of brands. Without the knowledge of its quality or even its origin. Especially since all sorts of brands are popping up, and prices of decent to well-known brands are skyrocketing.
As others have said, along with other contributors to this topic like Francis Cade, Trace Velo etc this is absolutely relevant content. Have a look at the prices of the new Trek Domane announced yesterday……….alternative frames and group sets are even more relevant now.
8:30 yes! The help and insight you are providing are helping us new riders who are struggling to figure out who offers the best value and is reputable.
thank you for the content ! Ive been using my 150$ hybrid bike from walmart for 3 years and im now thinking to upgrade for a Road bike around 2000$ range. (ive been doing 100-150km rides and 15% hills on that 150$ walmart bike lol and i use it 7 days a week)
I took that plunge myself about 6 months ago, spent my tax return on a gently used carbon dream machine for $2,000. Best thing I ever did. You won't regret it.
Definitely do it! Walmart bikes tend to be unsafe at anything but low speeds (poor braking, parts that fail while riding, cheap puncture-prone tires), so I’d take the plunge as soon as reasonably possible if I were you. You’re also at a good time, as many shops may be closing out the 2022 models, as it’s nearing the end of typical “riding season” anywhere except super warm climates.
Don’t forget that the vast majority of “American” companies still make their frames in China. So, you’re mostly paying for better Quality Control, and a name that you can sue if something goes wrong, not where the frame is made. My friend bought a nice CF Marin frame a while back that was defective, and he’s been waiting over 6 months for a replacement that he’s probably never going to see. And most of the Cannondales that come into the shop I work in have poorly-assembled components that need either hefty adjustments, or outright replacement. A faulty shifter, and a disc brake caliper that had a majorly leaking seal are just from the last shipment we got in. I feel like many of the “American” companies are relying on their past reputations, while cheaping out now.
I am very glad to see the evaluation of Chinese frame on youtube. I am a Chinese, but in China, the domestic frame is not very popular, and the evaluation of this aspect is very rare. It is also through this video that I learned that our country also has a good choice of frame, thank you very much
Never heard of the Elves frame but it looks nice. To know its build quality is better is good to know. Their logo looks legit too, not something just thrown together with basic computer fonts.
I've been called a "Bike snob" for caring where a bike comes from. I can speak from personal experience when I say that most American's don't give a dam where there bikes come from. Even this so called "budget" bike is still out of my price range. 2K is the most I've ever payed for a new bike. All the bikes I own now were purchased used. I really like the look of the Elves black/gold one. Thanks.
Such content is very useful for people who like to explore other options, at the end each can choose and buy what they wish and can! Keep up the good work!
I enjoy the chinese carbon bike reviews. In 2020 I got into biking but couldnt get my hands on a decent bike, I ended up buying a Yoleo R12 frame and rode the hell out of it. Its been a great bike and it bugs me when people hate on the frame just because its not a name brand. I wish there would have been more content like this when I bought the bike because it would have helped me decide on the brand.
Oh I have the same Trifox frame! Though the headset bearings on mine were smooth, and the paint is on par with the opinions in this video. Though still rides great and love it 🙂 Definately gonna get an elves for the next frame, that paint job alone is worth the little more 🤤
Really enjoyed this. I know Gary and Jay - both good eggs. I bought a TIdeace gravel frame (exploro copy) about 4 years ago now, and its been the best bike Ive owned. Im 100kg+ and have taken it to gap creek, daisy on single trail, taken it bikecamping, riverloops... its just been a lucky purchase I think. And it was about AUD$700 by memory, so an even bigger score.
My dad built one of these years ago. The rest of the bike was top of the line parts but the frame was Chinese. He's raced it a lot since then and it's been great to him.
Keep the great inexpensive bike content coming! Count me in as one of those looking to get good quality but less expensive alternatives. Piss off to the naysayers. Good on you Cam! 👏🎉
I think this content is worthwhile. For the ones who think it’s worthless… there are a 1,000 other TH-cam channels making the mainstream bike videos. There’s no shortage of content. However on this subject there’s a huge shortage of unbiased content towards these Chinese manufacturers. So I’m all for these continuing, but obviously that’s not going to happen.
100% agree with you, not everyone has 10 grand (and yes, I'm one of those poor people) to buy a bike, in my case I had to settle for a CANYON aeroad "original copy..." that I've been using since 2018 , I never had the slightest problem. Your channel is simply SUPER!!.
I think the difference between Chinese and name brand frames has more to do with chemistry and materials science than perceived build quality. Cut the frames up and run the samples through a 3 point bend and tensile test. It would be interesting to see the difference at the material level.
Yes, stuff like the finish on the fibers and the exact kind of epoxy really matters to bond strength and you can NOT see this by having a bike mechanic eyeball a painted frame. You have to do destructive tests. This is where I worry about a small Italian (or Chinese) frame maker. Can they afford to destructively test a statistically significant number of parts? You do not get good data by breaking only one frame. I assume Trek can afford to crush 100+ test articles a year.
Yes that was my thought as well. I dont care as much about the “finish” quality and the material makeup comparison. Because all carbon is definitely not created equally.
@@SourPatchPuss Hambini does do some basic material testing with different frame downtube materials here (trifox/canyon/cervelo/specalised) Obviously small sample size is nothing definitive and not the final word but definitely interesting th-cam.com/video/IfQCGoGHIEY/w-d-xo.html
Timely content, informative and practical. Elves has built a solid rereputation in South East Asia. The brand has good customer service and after sales support here. Cheers!
The ‘alternative’ bike supplier content is great! I love it - it’s varied. I can go watch GCN if I just want to know about the big brands. Keep it up 👍🏼
@@Superfly1503 Normally yes, however they've also been showcasing Ribble bikes lately. Also there was one episode where they examined a Lapierre. I think the presenters themselves would love exploring more bikes if it weren't for having to be loyal to their sponsors.
Thanks for the great content. I’ve built a TriFox X8 and ridden for past year. Amazing quality and superb service from them. Can’t recommend highly enough.
I very much appreciate what you're doing, haters be damned..you are likely going to save me thousands of dollars, and I will never be able to thank you enough.
Ordered a Specialized Allez Sprint frame. I just love aluminum and have been working at an online bike parts shop since last month, so I take advantage of the employee discount of course. I am slowly getting fitter again and feel better and can start training again. I just had a magnesium deficiency.
Glad to hear you got that sorted out, and it was nothing too major to fix. Keep riding, the fitness will follow. That’s coming from me, another cyclist who once weighed 50% more than I do now. 👍👍
Hey Cam., hope you're doing well mate. In regards to the negativity you may come across, it's probably best not to concern yourself with those select few. These people will project their own small and narrow opinions onto others regardless of whether or not there is value in said subject at hand. If your purpose is to reach those who are searching for what you have to offer, then you've done a fantastic job. I live in Tianjin and have been looking at these brands for a second bike build and this really video really helped. Thank you.
2 years ago, I wanted to build a cheap but good/reliable race bike that could last. That led me to watch videos like yours to find affordable alternatives. First I had was an unbranded carbon from aliexpress that developed a crack at the seat tube after only below 100km, no serious descends or rough roads and I'm 56kg by the way.. Still with affordability in mind and also durability, I decided to go for the Elves falath rim brake. No disc brake version available at the time and even if there were, I'd still choose rim over disc for the weight and aero gains. Elves was just starting to gain their popularity here in the Philippines during this but a "never-heard" in the western countries so there were no detailed reviews and I have no way of truly verifying the quality of the frame. Thank you for making this review and affirming my gut feeling then that I did make a good decision in choosing elves falath. I feel proud haha😄 p.s. I spec'd mine with Shimano R7000
I bought some Chinese carbon wheels called csc in 45s I ride with riders with wheels 5 times the price and I keep up and beat most of those riders and I put these wheels threw the grinder with rides in Nyc threw Manhattan Brooklyn and the bronx and it’s survived all of those massive craters they call potholes best 500 dollars spent and my friends ride them too with no issues
I have been using a mixture of Chinese and mainstream brand bikes and components for years and think the quality Chinese stuff stacks up incredibly well. Given the recent insane price rises it’s getting harder and harder to justify the spend and I honestly think some of those brands are now just taking the piss…. Videos like this are a great way to shed light on the alternative options available so keep up the great work Cam 👍🏻
Thanks Cam, this was a great look into Chinese products, I’m noticing a huge uptake in these products here in Oz given the current state of the industry, peoples mindsets are certainly changing, and giving the big three a run for there money
Super relatable content. Not everyone can afford the 10,000 dollar bike that the big bike brands offer. This gives us a good perspective on what is good and bad when it comes to affordable (relatively) bike parts
Elves frames are made in the same Shenzhen factory as Cervelo frames. The developers of Elves had previously worked on the development of the S-Works at Merida and offer a 5-year guarantee. There's a lot to be said for Elves...
People are just to afraid to even think about the fact there S-WORKS or Aeroad was made in China, but 95% or maybe even more carbon frames are made in China.
Thanks for the content Cam. Dont listen to the negative Nancy's out there, keep doing what you enjoy. I was very close to building myself a chinese carbon frame bike with all the bits but changed paths and will be taking delivery of a new Ribble CGR tomorrow. End price for the complete bike delivered is about $5k AUD with 105Di2. I still love to watch your content and a few others who review cheap frames and components even though getting another new bike is out of the question for me, I am interested in a hopefully upcoming cheap carbon wheels review! Take it easy!
Thank you for doing this video. I think it's great that you're making a video that's value oriented using Sensah groupset. As a follow up video, maybe you can also fit the Elves Falath frame with Shimano groupset and compare it against your other bikes like Winspace, BMC, Giant, etc. I'm sure many folks here are very interested in how they compare and whether the cost savings is actually worth it.
Ive had my eyes on Elves bikes for a while, the paint jobs drew me in immediately as lets admit a lot of the chinese oem paint jobs are brutal. Im glad im finally seeing some of them on youtube as it makes me more comfortable putting down £900 on a frame.
Great vid Cam as always.. as others have said these series of Chinese builds are valid and very interesting especially as big manufacturer costs rise. 😊👍🚴🤩
I like how you weigh your bikes in that circular room mantel thing, as if it's a conversational art piece and the entire room's decor is centered around it. You could hang a red and green bike there instead of a Christmas wreath during the holidays.
I have a pair of Elite 50mm rim brake wheels that have been faultless. I thrash them daily on Sydney roads and footpaths and they’ve performed flawlessly. A bargain for $500
I am going to be transitioning from marathon to triathlon in the near future. As a father of four and a wife with folded arms, tapping one foot on the floorboards, and throwing me the stink eye at the price of bikes, finding a ride with a more palatable price tag will probably be beneficial to my health. I appreciate your work 💯
I bought a Trifox x16 thru axle last year and the frame made it about a year before the threaded BB shell that holds the actual bracket came un-bonded from the frame. I reached out to Trifox and they pretended to care, said they’d get back to me and never did-great customer service, right? So, I bought a Winspace t1500 and the quality is a million times better.
I really like the 2min speech at the end. I really like the Chinese carbon frame content. Its a lot more interesting than regular bike content. Theres a lot less ego involved because Chinese carbon is already considered trash by elitist cycling gronks. I have thoroughly enjoyed following the cheaper builds thanks Cam
Keep doing it mate it’s brilliant. It’s real world as you say not everyone can afford the price of new bikes. Quality inspections is a great reference for everyone.
From the UK; Appreciated!!! Aero-disc-deep section wheeled bikes are way out my 'student/semi retired budget, still riding my non aero, caliper braking, shallow aluminum rimmed old, but lovely, 2005 C50 (bought from new when I had money) campag record blah blah. It seems to me new aero bikes are like the TT bikes I rode in the day (Guru chrono etc), ie bloody quick! £15K for a top aero bike is the cost of 3 years of academic research to be a small cog/sprocket/chainring, to try and make the world a better place. So Chinese maybe the option for many like me (liking the new Black Winspace wheels) on a limited budget who are fighting with the extra bagage of lost free watts.
price and availability of the big names are the reasons of your project, it makes a lot of sense. Keep it up. Time will tell what you are experimenting now will be the industry direction in the future.
I think the contant made about the Chinese carbon frame or wheelset can provide an alternative for cyclists who have a limited budget to start cycling or buy a second bike. Very interesting material and thank you.
Great video Cam, lovely piece at the end with the mission around the need to help uncover more affordable gear for both retailers and you're everyday enthusiast!
Love your videos, Cam! Keep doing what you're doing and if people don't enjoy the content, they can do one! Have recommended your channel to a lot of people at the club over here in the UK and they've got really good use out of it- especially the Neil bike fitting vids 👍
Just God knows how I like this kind of videos that shows and prove that chinese cheap frames are good enough. Cheers from Brazil, where expensive bikes are more and more expensive.
I think you are providing excellent content. I like many others got into cycling at the start of Covid, unlike older cyclists we don’t have as much snobbery or attachment to mainstream brands. If Chinese manufacturers can do a better job for a fraction of the cost, I wanna hear about it.
Hey Cam! Allow me to "aggressively" communicate how much I appreciate your thoughts, time, and research into this topic. Given how the cycling market is now gone from peddling applied sciences to peddling snake oil for the thousands of Dollars/Euros/Pounds we pay for it, I can see that things are changing in the marketplace. With that said, purchasing two frames was a bold move, but with good reason: QA-QC can still be hit and miss. But from what even the expert mechanics have said, the frames are nice and rideable, just that one has a nicer polish than the other. I look forward to seeing how things turn out with the bike build!
I'm looking forward to the builds. So I can definitely pull the trigger on the Elves Falath. I've seen other reviews and people are saying that's fast bike and bang for your buck.
Great video and fair play for the last couple of minutes. As others are saying - this is totally relevant right now - and you're not the only TH-camr doing this, so that says something in itself. I never get why some people feel the need to complain about TH-cam content - it's all free, the end result of someone else's hard work and, at the end of the day, if you don't like it. Personally, I really appreciate your videos. Top job. And the Elves frame looks top notch.
As an avid cyclist, this video is timely. I work as an apprentice bike mechanic and cannot believe the ridiculous cost of top-brand bikes . The sport has become unreachable for most people and, frankly, stupid. I ride a Legacy Vendetta 105, and it's a beautiful and fast bike. It survives just fine under my 235 pounds of body. I have owned everything that you can think of and flushed a lot of money down the toilet, and this bike surpasses them all in value and build. Thank you very much for this video, as it brings to light how much we are being ripped off by big brand greed. This is just my opinion.
Great video Cam once again. I bought an iCan gravel/ roadie around March this year. Chose raw black no logos. Put the awesome Campag Ekar GS on it. I can ride on the chain gang with the GC (Gold Coast) not the other GC (as in Gramd Tour Contemders!) at 45kms to 63 km sprints without a drama. I run Spesh Roval 38’s wheels with 30mm tubelss Roubaix tyres. I’ve also on these tyres thrashes it along the coastal grass an gravel around Ballina to Lennox. If I’m going serious all day gravel I swap out for some 3840 Spesh Pathfinders tubeless. This bike is brilliant. It weights about 1kg heavier than my 2021 Emonda SLR with AXS Red and top end RSL 37s. I love riding both but the “own label” STEVENS BEAST as I’ve badged it is a brilliant all rounder. I even put a small BMC decal on the seat post as I remind everyone who comments that in my instance BMC stands for Bicycle Made in China….! Frame, forks and carbon bars all up was $1200 delivered to Gold Coast. Qld Aus. So far so good folks.
The question I ultimately want answered: If cheaper Chinese parts give you "almost the same performance" as name brand parts, does that little bit of missing performance for each part compound over the entire build of the bike? While I think I could live with maybe one or two components being not quite as polished as a name brand part, if it starts adding up (i.e. - the brakes are constantly needing adjusted, the cassette shifts are clunky, the front crank drops chains, the shifters have bad ergonomics, the cables rattle constantly in the frame, etc), all those little issues compounding would really annoy me. I realize it's a somewhat subjective topic, and someone who doesn't regularly ride a top spec bike may not notice these little nuances, but I think it's worth discussing.
Really good point. You might check out Trace Velo. He looks at lots of budget/ ali express parts. He did a recent video on cheap and light cassettes which brought up this exact problem.
Cracking last 2 minutes for me bikes have got so expensive it become really hard to justify new purchases and this is the reason people look towards the alternative brands. A 10k does not feel significantly different to a 3k bike to justify it's exsistance. Road bikes are super simple the costs have just got ridiculous.
I have a hookup from a big online bike retailer- I got the employee discount- and my top end bike STILL cost me $6000 with a Chinese carbon frame and wheelset. It's just insane how expensive bikes have gotten in the last few years.
While I don't like the idea of buying a Chinese frame, the prices of big brand bikes have gotten completely out of control. Up until now, the mainstream brands disregarded Chinese frames / components because of quality issues, but if you can prove that the quality is getting better (at least for SOME of the Chinese brands), then hopefully that will get their attention. It's crazy that a mid-tier bike is somewhere around $6000 - $8000 US these days. It's making me strongly consider a frameset like that Elves, and maybe even the next generation of Sensah components (not there just yet). The new 105 pricing is just nuts.
Couldn't agree more. Just bought a Cannondale SuperSix Evo HiMod with Ultegra mechanical 11s .... but I had to go to Italy to get it on run-out sale. About $6.5k landed. The only local option in my size was SRAM Rival AXS 12s at nearly $10k. For a road bike!!! With no suspension!!! With SRAM (yuk)!!!
either way, you're buying chinese frames. The only question is, which quality-control stands behind it. But honestly: just look at how much wiggle-room the seat-posts have in Canyon frames. Yeah...
Elves and brands alike are building/maintaining a reputation and while it proves Chinese parts are fine for use the price is getting higher, in my opinion, a carbon frame shouldn't be invested in on a budget, the benefits of carbon is weight and stiffness, which affordable frames lack and a well made aluminium one will outperform in, carbon wheelsets for example however, provide great benefits and Chinese brands of no name produce well made things, as for delamination and poor QC, only the very cheap have that issue, I even bought a £30 carbon fork and the quality down the tube was excellent, whether the prongs themselves were the same I don't know but bristols roads are rough yet it's tactile and taking the potholes comfortably, carbon is at a stage where you can produce it in your kitchen, even cheap parts are effective, just not the best.
Jeez, what possesses people to waste their own time, and yours, with negativity when this is wholesome and informative content. First time stumbling across your vids, but a straight up sub. Gonna enjoy poking around the uploads list.
nice mate thanks for the info ❤️ you and gc p snd hambini is the best content in cycling especially in budget frame and wheels to give more idea to build
Hey Cam….. once again a cracking video!! TBH Was getting bored on the windspace bikes so these are something different and interesting to hear on Chinese bike frames!!! BUT I would never complain to you about it….. at the end of the day your doing us all a favour researching these for us because money is getting tight for the big €€€s for the mainstream brands!!! So 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 to you!! 😍 from 🇮🇪
These videos are 100% more interesting and more relevant to the vast majority of people who don't want to drop 10k on a bike. With so many different direct from China frames out there, it's good to see which ones offer the best value/quality. If I want to see the same old marketing BS about the latest Specialized/Trek/Canyon I'll just go and watch a GCN video. Keep these projects coming! 👍
I just discovered your channel at TH-cam and I really liked the video of the Chinese bike frames. You are doing very well and keep the videos coming to have a good time in our free time
This content is super relevant given the ridiculous prices of race bikes from the big manufacturers who make owning a quality rig an elitist pursuit....well done Cam, keep them coming.
Well said. On top of that the QC from the big brands are crap as exposed by Hambini. These are two triangles put together with good alignment compare that to the cost of motorcycles and cars the prices of bikes are out of hand. Thanks for the content Cam.
100%. Mid level bikes used to be $3/4k. The same thing is now about $7/8k. Top end used to be about $9k. It's now about $15k. Crazy 🤪
Exactly 20 years ago, an American made, carbon Trek 5200 (exact frame Postal rode), with a Shimano Ultegra groupset and Bontrager wheels (which were made by DT Swiss for Bontrager), retailed for $2,700USD. That's pretty insane...even accounting for inflation, that's $4,500 in today's money. Now you'll pay twice that for a Chinese made Ultegra bike.
In my cycling circle there is a lot of talk about this... prices, spares availability, being forced to 'upgrade' (change for the sake of it), prices are crazy for what you can get, will be get used to fork out 2k pounds (I am writing from the UK) for a tiagra entry level road bike? when 10 years ago we were getting Ultegra quality at race specs.
I think we are witnessing a huge change in the industry, putting apart the fact that manufacturers are pushing the industry to ONLY supply whatever is most incompatible with what we had until recent (rim brakes, mechanical) they are forcing obsolescence at high speed to depart with our wallets, and forced obsolescence is a huge issue they should be accountable for - what are we doing with all the waste?
Also in my cycling circle, there is A LOT more appetite to try Chinese groupsets, the big brands Shimano, SRAM, Campagnolo... might have shot their own foot with their recent business decisions and they are creating a HUGE market for these Chinese brands, as soon as they go through a second generation of product development I am sure they will be much more common in the West and it's going to hurt the big brands...
A home that cost $60000 in my parents’ day now cost $1.5m. What’s your point?
Haters are always insecure, like Cam said, it saves lots of money for someone who doesn’t have that much budget to built some nice bike. Keep up the content for us viewers who enjoy and learn something new not just for well known brand but also alternative and quality brand bike frame and parts.
Just laughing 😂 poor people, like me 🤔
The world loves making China rich somehow.
Confident people know that if you want something you got to save up for it. It's a choice.
Insecure people say it's too hard, and I can never afford that...
If you say you cannot afford it, wouldn't you say you can say that you *_can_* afford it too?
If you got a pulse, it means you got choices and I'm only responsible for myself.
@@Perception_ why? Save up 4k or up just so that BIG manufacturers like SPECIALIZED still commit mistakes. Or trek. Or cervelo
@@gersonFls7 Most people tell themselves quality does not exist, so they will remain unfullfilled in life. It's selfpity talking and all too common. In the long run it cost less to own something that cost more if you've just cared enough to find your own true needs, and find the quality you feel is needed and that will not interfear with anything more important. It's expensive to buy cheap all the time, because you build a desire to just buy more shit because you think you actually have saved money, and in the longrun you just end up throwing away money on trash items you don't really want in the first place. This is how the rich become richer, and the poor remain poor.
So, go the distance and pay for quality is my advice. I'd rather have less but good quality items in my life, because I will care more about them and make them last longer.
Pay once, and with money you own.
I would argue this content is some of the most valuable cycling content in the space at the moment. TH-cam's like Tracevelo have brought forward the idea of Cheap Chinese carbon builds to the forefront and Francis doing bits here and there as well but these builds from a technical standpoint offer a ton to the average Joe and are rewriting how we approach cycling marketing and brands now. Love the content!
I thoroughly enjoyed the video and your experimentation with the Chinese bikes. I have ordered a few myself over the years and you nailed it when you said they are hit and miss. I have had some great ones and some where the rear triangle was crooked. I am one of those not willing to spend 10k on a bike. Thanks again!
Thanks for sharing on the thread.
So what did you do with the ones that didn't work out? I'm interested but couldn't you argue that if you had to trash those bikes the price gets pretty comparable to a solid bike like one from Canyon?
@@jackwright3098 Great question! I have found that I can buy 4 new frames from China before I hit the price of a brand new frame from the name brands. I have really only had one lemon from China and the other 7 or 8 were perfect. I enjoy buying and building up bikes so that is why I have experienced so many. Now many of the Chinese brands have some sort of warranty but even if they do not, you can buy 4 frames before you get to the cost of 1 name brand frame. Riding a Chinese frame, I do not have the fear of a frame breaking like I would if I was riding a name brand who may try to shaft me with their warranty fine print.
@@BlackWaterCyclist hey thanks for the reply. So you're not worried about the qc when you're going fast downhill? You could definitely have the same issues with a named brand but people have just made me paranoid maybe regarding Chinese manufacturers.
@@BlackWaterCyclist The problem is, if you have the money to buy 4, 8 or 10 or whatever Chinese frames in the hope one of them is good then you have the money to buy one frame that you'll know will be good and may as well do that. If the only downside to buying a known good frame is "might have spent a bit too much money" then you've lost nothing and you'd be better spending your time and energy finding ways to make money than buying multiple frames.
What typically happens for someone who isn't just playing on their youtube channel is that they don't have the money to buy multiple Chinese frames and they don't have the money to buy the expensive frame, and they're attracted to the idea of getting a bargain from China. If they get a lemon they're left with nothing, out of pocket and living in regret sans a bike (that's without even taking into account the very real possibility that they discover the 'lemon' carbon parts when they break as they are riding along - because they don't have the money to take everything along to some carbon fibre specialist to xray either)
So that's the flaw - playing at being poor and buying cheap products isn't the same as being poor. That person who genuinely cannot afford to take the hit if a cheap carbon frame is a lemon really needs to buy a known good quality metal frame or a used bike - because the hunt for non-lemons from China is a game they can't afford to play, in the same way the S-work frame is a game they can't afford.
Man, that Elves frame looks great! I'm rolling on a Trek Emonda SL7 and I still love the look of it. I reckon the Elves + Sensah set would make an amazingly flash cheaper bike for racing/commuting, something you wouldn't be too concerned about.
I've really enjoyed watching the Chinese bike frame series, very relevant at a time where the big brands have lost the plot with the amount of money they are charging for a push bike (Specialized) outragious for example.
Loved this video. My road bike I built up myself is a china carbon frame. After putting good quality, albeit used, components (Mostly sram red stuff), It weighs in at 14.6lbs. I.E. Lighter than the brand new Tarmac SL7. I have put a little over 3000 miles on it. It is still solid. Love riding it.
what frame did you buy?
I'm so glad that the viewers chose that frame because it is WAY sexier than the other frame. Super nice paint job and I love the colors and the color change. Can't wait to see how this build comes along.
On a side note, I love these Chinese bike videos. Yes, they make some poor quality stuff, but they also make some really good quality stuff, and it's thanks to people like you that we don't have to spend our hard-earned money to know the difference. In another year or so I plan on buying what will probably be my last bike (I'm not a young man anymore), and I'm going Chinese all the way. I want the most bang for my buck while still having a great looking and great performing bike. So keep it up and don't mind the haters, they can buy the $10,000 bikes and leave the smart choices to the rest of us.
As a Chinese I must say I've never heard of nor saw Trifox frame until I watch this video😂 Elves is quite popular among the "budget brands" though, lots of college students do custom builds with Elves or Upland frames. Winspace are quite rare, we know they focus on the foreign market(especially SEA). A few years ago Winspace had tried to introduce itself to Chinese domestic market but its frames have some quality issues then and they end up with a bad reputation in China.
what is the top chinese brand in China then?
@@jaaxc1036 Many people in mainland China regard Giant and Merida as Chinese brands. The market share and number of stores of these two brands are overwhelming in mainland China. If these two Taiwanese brands are not counted, Parous should be the "top brand" in enthusiastic bike market. There are also some small brands that have made good progress in focusing on cost performance. Most of the carbon fiber frames of these products use slightly modified designs of other brands, and are manufactured by factories in Guangdong.
Trifox is basically repainted TFSA frame😂
Pardus ，not Parous@@zhixiaoliu3017
I've only bought one, an ICAN A10. It is really good. Hambini had a good one too. The details are better than my Tarmac. The Elves ones have great paint jobs.
I do appreciate the 'Chinese' bike builds, as someone who'd like to build up a bike in the future, i feel that the cheaper parts etc are a good place for me to start that first build.
I'm from Brazil and i purchased this Elves Falath 2022 Disc. I built with Elite Wheels and I'm loving it!
99% of the high price frames and forks are made out of China the last 12 years. They then ship to Taiwan for logistics and less dumping taxes.
100% of dentists dont know this fact.
I currently own over 40 high end road bikes and work on bikes daily as a mechanic when in Australia. The Trifox X16 rim brake is an incredible machine. I sold my SL7 S-Works after the first ride. The S-Works SL7 you see being ridden by big name riders is a different frame and fork. This has been confirmed to me by a team mechanic and video proof. It is hilarious how most cyclists are conned by these big brands. Just look at the prices they charge now for frames made in the same industrial estate as these brands Cam features.
You did not mention in your videos how rough the finishing was on trifox bikes, goes to show Cam is a lot more credible than you are!
Dentists also know that if the fork breaks because of a defect and your teeth are knocked out, you want a name-brand OEM so you can sue them for damages.
elves seem to know what they're doing. francis cade built one up a few days ago, just over 6kg. there was a cable holder with "cervelo" on it, so they could in theory produce cervelo bikes, but who knows. anyway great to see where your content is going, love the high effort videos relevant to things people care about. keep it coming!
Because elves are used by the pros here in Philippines and other south east asian countries
@@Jardsss yea forgot to mention that
@@The86rick in what ways did he disagree with this video?
@@The86rick lmao, fair enough considering they probably pay the minimum amount for the frame anyway
Hambini did a review of an elves frame. It was bad
Absolutely worth doing this content Cam, point 2 for the win! Yes bikes have become ridiculously priced and cannot justify the money with a straight face. But until the market, ie us, show them its not on they will of course continue. We do that with taking our business elsewhere and that's where you come in. Thanks for looking at the options because point 3 is spot on too.
Ignore the critics.... i agree 100% with you. I love bikes, racing and riding for 30 years and the cost is now outrageous!! I am certainly interested in finding more out about alternatives without having to actually spend the money myself. We also all know that nearly all big brand names are made in China and in many case's the same factory!!! Keep them coming!!!!
Love your work Cam! This content is extremely relevant to all of us who can't contemplate buying a big brand super-bike.
Honestly as someone who's looking at building their own bike for the first time this kind of content is super helpful. Just standalone frames from the bigger names start around $2500. To see something like the Elves frame have an amazing paint job and good build quality for less than half the price is a no brainer. Especially for the average rider who's just does local rides and events.
I bought an Elves Vanyar (their "lightweight" road bike) a couple of years ago. Not sure if they still do it but at the time custom paint was free. I got my design painted in three colors, one of them a chameleon paint like on your frame. It is beautiful and the best bike I've owned. It's not the cheapest Chinese frame but it's worth it and a way better deal than the mainstream bike brands.
I love this series already! I bought an Elves Vanyar frame a couple of months ago, for the same reasons you mentioned in the video and it’s great to see that more and more people are discovering this great brand and frames. It’s a lovely ride for a sensible price.
Where on their site can you find what the tire clearance is for each frame? I can’t figure it out. Lol
@@cincydooley just email them, their customer service is great. My Vanyar has 25mm max width on paper, but I think 28mm will fit as well.
Keep up the content on the Chinese made bikes. For the first time in awhile I’m looking at buying another bike and I’m blown away by the prices. Getting a mid level ultegra bike now with a decent wheel set from one of the big brands is close to 7k! I think these are a great option for those who still want a quality bike at a better price! I’m actually looking at the winspace stuff.
Cam, you are doing every one a huge favor by doing these videos. I always wondered about both of these manufacturers! Great information!
Three VERY good reasons!! These types of video reviewing this type of frames r rare. Especially from a perspective of some one like you who also experiences the more higher end main stream brands like Specialized, Cannondale and the likes of it. Hope you continue to review both mainstream and Chinese brands. Not just either one.😊👍🏽
Got a 2010 Chinerelo S3 from DHgate back in 2012 and came with carbon frame and fork for 500 bucks and haven't had any problems still ride every week and no cracks or noodling. It's NOW 2022 And my cheap carbon Chinese bike is STILL GOING STRONG!!!!!!
Anyone presenting affordable bikes and tech in todays market of inflating prices and sensibly comparing them with respect to their ups and downs has my support. Keep up the good work! 👍 I did my own build two years ago and just went with a little older tech. I ended up with a well working bike many would have lusted after three years before but at a fraction of the cost. Beeing a few years older puts such things into perspective too, just dont go oberboard and fall for nostalgia instead.
I'm 65 this year and I want a nice light weight bike I don't have to pay a arm and leg for . If its Chinese so be it . I'm glad you are doing the off brands bike . You get a lot more people watching your videos because its something we might be able to afford . Don't worry about what the bike snobs are saying . Keep helping the regular people . There are a lot more of use vs the snobs .
bit of a weird one, the elves frame that was bought anonymously for my channel was pretty crap. the trifox frame in contrast was immaculate.
Things tend to be reversed in the Southern Hemisphere so it makes perfect sense.
I’d say all of the frames are hit or miss really I think that’s the main difference with say giant whose we means each frameset will be a similar quality
Hey Hambini, small time fan here. I did recall you mentioned the trifox frame was sent to you by them to get roasted. Maybe a point to factor in?
“Trifox sent to me by Lily from the Company” said Hambini…….
Yeah, probably just a random bike from production 🧐
Let me get this right.The Trifox was the best.Correct?
Ciao from Italy.
Well done! Don't stop, this is the right direction. I have been studying the market of Chinese bicycle manufacturers for more than a year. I assembled a bike on the cheapest frameset and wheels from Seraph. He painted himself, corrected the production defect. I am satisfied with the result.Now I'm looking at ELVES and DARE.
If I visit Australia, I would be glad to meet you.
I appreciate what you do very much. I am new to cycling and no way I can afford a 10,000 bike. I am not oppose to a Chinese made bike and you providing this content makes the process of purchasing a bike SO much easier. Ignore the negative people and continue with your content. Cheers
Spot on Cam. I cannot even imagine new bike day being a reality these days. I bought my Addict in 2015, full dura ace and all the bits for a price well below the ticket price of $8K (helps to have friends that own bike shops), but I "window shop" now for similarly specced machines, and there's nothing south of $15K. It's not even a joke anymore, and I fear that cycling is becoming such an exclusive domain, it won't be long before families can't afford to buy a Kmart cheapie for the kids. Your content is always relevant, and always interesting, and no doubt for every person knocking what you do, you'd have a dozen with both thumbs up. Looking forward to the Sensah reveal! 👍👍
I have a chinese carbon 29er frame I bought from someone that ordered 2. He kept one that was bigger, sold the other small/medium to me. It's near a match to a specialized or scott HT carbon frame with thru axle rear. I have about 2500 or more of very hard racing and mountain biking miles on the frame. Several 6 hour races, a few hundred mile races, It has no cracks, no issues. Beat to hell really. Raced it with carbon seat post, carbon bars, carbon specialized wheels and it comes in at just around or under 20 lbs. A super fast compliant race bike. I paid $500.00 bucks for the frame. There are options out there. Thanks Cam for showing the world we don't need to spend 10k on any bicycle.
Kudos to this video! Coming from the Philippines. I can say that these types of videos are fun to watch as it is very informative, timely, valuable, and relevant as we are often offered with these kinds of brands. Without the knowledge of its quality or even its origin. Especially since all sorts of brands are popping up, and prices of decent to well-known brands are skyrocketing.
As others have said, along with other contributors to this topic like Francis Cade, Trace Velo etc this is absolutely relevant content. Have a look at the prices of the new Trek Domane announced yesterday……….alternative frames and group sets are even more relevant now.
8:30 yes! The help and insight you are providing are helping us new riders who are struggling to figure out who offers the best value and is reputable.
Cheers mate.
thank you for the content ! Ive been using my 150$ hybrid bike from walmart for 3 years and im now thinking to upgrade for a Road bike around 2000$ range. (ive been doing 100-150km rides and 15% hills on that 150$ walmart bike lol and i use it 7 days a week)
I took that plunge myself about 6 months ago, spent my tax return on a gently used carbon dream machine for $2,000. Best thing I ever did. You won't regret it.
Definitely do it! Walmart bikes tend to be unsafe at anything but low speeds (poor braking, parts that fail while riding, cheap puncture-prone tires), so I’d take the plunge as soon as reasonably possible if I were you. You’re also at a good time, as many shops may be closing out the 2022 models, as it’s nearing the end of typical “riding season” anywhere except super warm climates.
Don’t forget that the vast majority of “American” companies still make their frames in China. So, you’re mostly paying for better Quality Control, and a name that you can sue if something goes wrong, not where the frame is made. My friend bought a nice CF Marin frame a while back that was defective, and he’s been waiting over 6 months for a replacement that he’s probably never going to see. And most of the Cannondales that come into the shop I work in have poorly-assembled components that need either hefty adjustments, or outright replacement. A faulty shifter, and a disc brake caliper that had a majorly leaking seal are just from the last shipment we got in. I feel like many of the “American” companies are relying on their past reputations, while cheaping out now.
Exactly, soon the American companies won't exist when China steals their IP
I am very glad to see the evaluation of Chinese frame on youtube. I am a Chinese, but in China, the domestic frame is not very popular, and the evaluation of this aspect is very rare. It is also through this video that I learned that our country also has a good choice of frame, thank you very much
Never heard of the Elves frame but it looks nice. To know its build quality is better is good to know. Their logo looks legit too, not something just thrown together with basic computer fonts.
I've been called a "Bike snob" for caring where a bike comes from. I can speak from personal experience when I say that most American's don't give a dam where there bikes come from. Even this so called "budget" bike is still out of my price range. 2K is the most I've ever payed for a new bike. All the bikes I own now were purchased used. I really like the look of the Elves black/gold one. Thanks.
Such content is very useful for people who like to explore other options, at the end each can choose and buy what they wish and can! Keep up the good work!
I enjoy the chinese carbon bike reviews. In 2020 I got into biking but couldnt get my hands on a decent bike, I ended up buying a Yoleo R12 frame and rode the hell out of it. Its been a great bike and it bugs me when people hate on the frame just because its not a name brand. I wish there would have been more content like this when I bought the bike because it would have helped me decide on the brand.
Oh I have the same Trifox frame!
Though the headset bearings on mine were smooth, and the paint is on par with the opinions in this video.
Though still rides great and love it 🙂
Definately gonna get an elves for the next frame, that paint job alone is worth the little more 🤤
Really enjoyed this. I know Gary and Jay - both good eggs. I bought a TIdeace gravel frame (exploro copy) about 4 years ago now, and its been the best bike Ive owned. Im 100kg+ and have taken it to gap creek, daisy on single trail, taken it bikecamping, riverloops... its just been a lucky purchase I think. And it was about AUD$700 by memory, so an even bigger score.
My dad built one of these years ago. The rest of the bike was top of the line parts but the frame was Chinese. He's raced it a lot since then and it's been great to him.
Keep the great inexpensive bike content coming! Count me in as one of those looking to get good quality but less expensive alternatives. Piss off to the naysayers. Good on you Cam! 👏🎉
I think this content is worthwhile. For the ones who think it’s worthless… there are a 1,000 other TH-cam channels making the mainstream bike videos. There’s no shortage of content. However on this subject there’s a huge shortage of unbiased content towards these Chinese manufacturers. So I’m all for these continuing, but obviously that’s not going to happen.
100% agree with you, not everyone has 10 grand (and yes, I'm one of those poor people) to buy a bike, in my case I had to settle for a CANYON aeroad "original copy..." that I've been using since 2018 , I never had the slightest problem. Your channel is simply SUPER!!.
I think the difference between Chinese and name brand frames has more to do with chemistry and materials science than perceived build quality. Cut the frames up and run the samples through a 3 point bend and tensile test. It would be interesting to see the difference at the material level.
Last week I hit 76kph on a downhill - I’m not comfortable doing that on an unknown brand.
Yes, stuff like the finish on the fibers and the exact kind of epoxy really matters to bond strength and you can NOT see this by having a bike mechanic eyeball a painted frame. You have to do destructive tests.
This is where I worry about a small Italian (or Chinese) frame maker. Can they afford to destructively test a statistically significant number of parts? You do not get good data by breaking only one frame. I assume Trek can afford to crush 100+ test articles a year.
@@chrisalbertson5838 you have to understand some of the "Chinese" brands are doing the building and testing for Trek etc
Yes that was my thought as well. I dont care as much about the “finish” quality and the material makeup comparison. Because all carbon is definitely not created equally.
@@SourPatchPuss Hambini does do some basic material testing with different frame downtube materials here (trifox/canyon/cervelo/specalised)
Obviously small sample size is nothing definitive and not the final word but definitely interesting
th-cam.com/video/IfQCGoGHIEY/w-d-xo.html
Timely content, informative and practical. Elves has built a solid rereputation in South East Asia. The brand has good customer service and after sales support here. Cheers!
The ‘alternative’ bike supplier content is great! I love it - it’s varied. I can go watch GCN if I just want to know about the big brands. Keep it up 👍🏼
Only if you want Orbea, Canyon or Pinarello
@@Superfly1503 Normally yes, however they've also been showcasing Ribble bikes lately. Also there was one episode where they examined a Lapierre. I think the presenters themselves would love exploring more bikes if it weren't for having to be loyal to their sponsors.
Thanks for the great content. I’ve built a TriFox X8 and ridden for past year. Amazing quality and superb service from them. Can’t recommend highly enough.
I very much appreciate what you're doing, haters be damned..you are likely going to save me thousands of dollars, and I will never be able to thank you enough.
Ordered a Specialized Allez Sprint frame. I just love aluminum and have been working at an online bike parts shop since last month, so I take advantage of the employee discount of course.
I am slowly getting fitter again and feel better and can start training again. I just had a magnesium deficiency.
Glad to hear you got that sorted out, and it was nothing too major to fix. Keep riding, the fitness will follow. That’s coming from me, another cyclist who once weighed 50% more than I do now. 👍👍
Hey Cam., hope you're doing well mate. In regards to the negativity you may come across, it's probably best not to concern yourself with those select few. These people will project their own small and narrow opinions onto others regardless of whether or not there is value in said subject at hand. If your purpose is to reach those who are searching for what you have to offer, then you've done a fantastic job.
I live in Tianjin and have been looking at these brands for a second bike build and this really video really helped. Thank you.
2 years ago, I wanted to build a cheap but good/reliable race bike that could last. That led me to watch videos like yours to find affordable alternatives. First I had was an unbranded carbon from aliexpress that developed a crack at the seat tube after only below 100km, no serious descends or rough roads and I'm 56kg by the way..
Still with affordability in mind and also durability, I decided to go for the Elves falath rim brake. No disc brake version available at the time and even if there were, I'd still choose rim over disc for the weight and aero gains. Elves was just starting to gain their popularity here in the Philippines during this but a "never-heard" in the western countries so there were no detailed reviews and I have no way of truly verifying the quality of the frame.
Thank you for making this review and affirming my gut feeling then that I did make a good decision in choosing elves falath. I feel proud haha😄
p.s. I spec'd mine with Shimano R7000
I bought some Chinese carbon wheels called csc in 45s I ride with riders with wheels 5 times the price and I keep up and beat most of those riders and I put these wheels threw the grinder with rides in Nyc threw Manhattan Brooklyn and the bronx and it’s survived all of those massive craters they call potholes best 500 dollars spent and my friends ride them too with no issues
Just waiting for my Falath frame to arrive, glad to see it's come out on top! Looking forward to seeing you build it up.
Videos like these are a godsend for people on a budget, which is me. The Elves frame is a real looker.
I have been using a mixture of Chinese and mainstream brand bikes and components for years and think the quality Chinese stuff stacks up incredibly well. Given the recent insane price rises it’s getting harder and harder to justify the spend and I honestly think some of those brands are now just taking the piss….
Videos like this are a great way to shed light on the alternative options available so keep up the great work Cam 👍🏻
Thanks Cam, this was a great look into Chinese products, I’m noticing a huge uptake in these products here in Oz given the current state of the industry, peoples mindsets are certainly changing, and giving the big three a run for there money
Super relatable content. Not everyone can afford the 10,000 dollar bike that the big bike brands offer. This gives us a good perspective on what is good and bad when it comes to affordable (relatively) bike parts
Elves frames are made in the same Shenzhen factory as Cervelo frames. The developers of Elves had previously worked on the development of the S-Works at Merida and offer a 5-year guarantee. There's a lot to be said for Elves...
People are just to afraid to even think about the fact there S-WORKS or Aeroad was made in China, but 95% or maybe even more carbon frames are made in China.
S-Works what? Which model? Which year? What kind of 'development' are you talking about?
@@ccmmrrnn
Watch some of the China Cycling videos for more info. One video shows Specialized CEO at the Shanghai International bike show.
Thanks for the content Cam. Dont listen to the negative Nancy's out there, keep doing what you enjoy.
I was very close to building myself a chinese carbon frame bike with all the bits but changed paths and will be taking delivery of a new Ribble CGR tomorrow. End price for the complete bike delivered is about $5k AUD with 105Di2.
I still love to watch your content and a few others who review cheap frames and components even though getting another new bike is out of the question for me, I am interested in a hopefully upcoming cheap carbon wheels review!
Take it easy!
looking forward to seeing how this rides and the relationship between build quality and layup/ride quality
Thank you for doing this video. I think it's great that you're making a video that's value oriented using Sensah groupset. As a follow up video, maybe you can also fit the Elves Falath frame with Shimano groupset and compare it against your other bikes like Winspace, BMC, Giant, etc. I'm sure many folks here are very interested in how they compare and whether the cost savings is actually worth it.
Ive had my eyes on Elves bikes for a while, the paint jobs drew me in immediately as lets admit a lot of the chinese oem paint jobs are brutal. Im glad im finally seeing some of them on youtube as it makes me more comfortable putting down £900 on a frame.
Great vid Cam as always.. as others have said these series of Chinese builds are valid and very interesting especially as big manufacturer costs rise. 😊👍🚴🤩
Cheers Pete
I like how you weigh your bikes in that circular room mantel thing, as if it's a conversational art piece and the entire room's decor is centered around it. You could hang a red and green bike there instead of a Christmas wreath during the holidays.
I have a pair of Elite 50mm rim brake wheels that have been faultless.
I thrash them daily on Sydney roads and footpaths and they’ve performed flawlessly.
A bargain for $500
I am going to be transitioning from marathon to triathlon in the near future. As a father of four and a wife with folded arms, tapping one foot on the floorboards, and throwing me the stink eye at the price of bikes, finding a ride with a more palatable price tag will probably be beneficial to my health. I appreciate your work 💯
Very interesting. Your justification about the crazy price of bikes nips really good. Thanks for the helpful info.
I bought a Trifox x16 thru axle last year and the frame made it about a year before the threaded BB shell that holds the actual bracket came un-bonded from the frame. I reached out to Trifox and they pretended to care, said they’d get back to me and never did-great customer service, right? So, I bought a Winspace t1500 and the quality is a million times better.
I really like the 2min speech at the end. I really like the Chinese carbon frame content. Its a lot more interesting than regular bike content. Theres a lot less ego involved because Chinese carbon is already considered trash by elitist cycling gronks. I have thoroughly enjoyed following the cheaper builds thanks Cam
Keep doing it mate it’s brilliant. It’s real world as you say not everyone can afford the price of new bikes. Quality inspections is a great reference for everyone.
From the UK; Appreciated!!!
Aero-disc-deep section wheeled bikes are way out my 'student/semi retired budget, still riding my non aero, caliper braking, shallow aluminum rimmed old, but lovely, 2005 C50 (bought from new when I had money) campag record blah blah. It seems to me new aero bikes are like the TT bikes I rode in the day (Guru chrono etc), ie bloody quick! £15K for a top aero bike is the cost of 3 years of academic research to be a small cog/sprocket/chainring, to try and make the world a better place.
So Chinese maybe the option for many like me (liking the new Black Winspace wheels) on a limited budget who are fighting with the extra bagage of lost free watts.
Excited to watch this build as I have been planning on doing an Elves/Sensah build over the winter. Great content, love it.
price and availability of the big names are the reasons of your project, it makes a lot of sense. Keep it up. Time will tell what you are experimenting now will be the industry direction in the future.
Its all interesting and genuinely useful when an SL7 can cost £13k in the UK. Keep it rolling. And its good to hear old mate's valuable feedback
I think the contant made about the Chinese carbon frame or wheelset can provide an alternative for cyclists who have a limited budget to start cycling or buy a second bike. Very interesting material and thank you.
I really like how you explained the difference of both brands. I think I would buy an elves soon.
Very happy you're testing these out for the rest of us! Keep it up.
Great video Cam, lovely piece at the end with the mission around the need to help uncover more affordable gear for both retailers and you're everyday enthusiast!
Its great you are showing us in depth what is good coming out of China, as i think we will be seeing more and more Chinese bikes on the roads.
Love your videos, Cam! Keep doing what you're doing and if people don't enjoy the content, they can do one! Have recommended your channel to a lot of people at the club over here in the UK and they've got really good use out of it- especially the Neil bike fitting vids 👍
Just God knows how I like this kind of videos that shows and prove that chinese cheap frames are good enough. Cheers from Brazil, where expensive bikes are more and more expensive.
I think you are providing excellent content. I like many others got into cycling at the start of Covid, unlike older cyclists we don’t have as much snobbery or attachment to mainstream brands. If Chinese manufacturers can do a better job for a fraction of the cost, I wanna hear about it.
Hey Cam! Allow me to "aggressively" communicate how much I appreciate your thoughts, time, and research into this topic. Given how the cycling market is now gone from peddling applied sciences to peddling snake oil for the thousands of Dollars/Euros/Pounds we pay for it, I can see that things are changing in the marketplace.
With that said, purchasing two frames was a bold move, but with good reason: QA-QC can still be hit and miss. But from what even the expert mechanics have said, the frames are nice and rideable, just that one has a nicer polish than the other.
I look forward to seeing how things turn out with the bike build!
Haha cheers mate
I'm looking forward to the builds. So I can definitely pull the trigger on the Elves Falath. I've seen other reviews and people are saying that's fast bike and bang for your buck.
Great video and fair play for the last couple of minutes. As others are saying - this is totally relevant right now - and you're not the only TH-camr doing this, so that says something in itself. I never get why some people feel the need to complain about TH-cam content - it's all free, the end result of someone else's hard work and, at the end of the day, if you don't like it. Personally, I really appreciate your videos. Top job. And the Elves frame looks top notch.
As an avid cyclist, this video is timely. I work as an apprentice bike mechanic and cannot believe the ridiculous cost of top-brand bikes .
The sport has become unreachable for most people and, frankly, stupid.
I ride a Legacy Vendetta 105, and it's a beautiful and fast bike. It survives just fine under my 235 pounds of body.
I have owned everything that you can think of and flushed a lot of money down the toilet, and this bike surpasses them all in value and build. Thank you very much for this video, as it brings to light how much we are being ripped off by big brand greed. This is just my opinion.
Great video Cam once again. I bought an iCan gravel/ roadie around March this year. Chose raw black no logos. Put the awesome Campag Ekar GS on it. I can ride on the chain gang with the GC (Gold Coast) not the other GC (as in Gramd Tour Contemders!) at 45kms to 63 km sprints without a drama. I run Spesh Roval 38’s wheels with 30mm tubelss Roubaix tyres. I’ve also on these tyres thrashes it along the coastal grass an gravel around Ballina to Lennox. If I’m going serious all day gravel I swap out for some 3840 Spesh Pathfinders tubeless.
This bike is brilliant. It weights about 1kg heavier than my 2021 Emonda SLR with AXS Red and top end RSL 37s. I love riding both but the “own label” STEVENS BEAST as I’ve badged it is a brilliant all rounder. I even put a small BMC decal on the seat post as I remind everyone who comments that in my instance BMC stands for Bicycle Made in China….!
Frame, forks and carbon bars all up was $1200 delivered to Gold Coast. Qld Aus.
So far so good folks.
That Elves frame is beautiful! Can't wait to see it built!
The question I ultimately want answered: If cheaper Chinese parts give you "almost the same performance" as name brand parts, does that little bit of missing performance for each part compound over the entire build of the bike?
While I think I could live with maybe one or two components being not quite as polished as a name brand part, if it starts adding up (i.e. - the brakes are constantly needing adjusted, the cassette shifts are clunky, the front crank drops chains, the shifters have bad ergonomics, the cables rattle constantly in the frame, etc), all those little issues compounding would really annoy me. I realize it's a somewhat subjective topic, and someone who doesn't regularly ride a top spec bike may not notice these little nuances, but I think it's worth discussing.
Really good point. You might check out Trace Velo. He looks at lots of budget/ ali express parts. He did a recent video on cheap and light cassettes which brought up this exact problem.
Cracking last 2 minutes for me bikes have got so expensive it become really hard to justify new purchases and this is the reason people look towards the alternative brands. A 10k does not feel significantly different to a 3k bike to justify it's exsistance. Road bikes are super simple the costs have just got ridiculous.
I have a hookup from a big online bike retailer- I got the employee discount- and my top end bike STILL cost me $6000 with a Chinese carbon frame and wheelset. It's just insane how expensive bikes have gotten in the last few years.
While I don't like the idea of buying a Chinese frame, the prices of big brand bikes have gotten completely out of control. Up until now, the mainstream brands disregarded Chinese frames / components because of quality issues, but if you can prove that the quality is getting better (at least for SOME of the Chinese brands), then hopefully that will get their attention. It's crazy that a mid-tier bike is somewhere around $6000 - $8000 US these days. It's making me strongly consider a frameset like that Elves, and maybe even the next generation of Sensah components (not there just yet). The new 105 pricing is just nuts.
Couldn't agree more. Just bought a Cannondale SuperSix Evo HiMod with Ultegra mechanical 11s .... but I had to go to Italy to get it on run-out sale. About $6.5k landed. The only local option in my size was SRAM Rival AXS 12s at nearly $10k. For a road bike!!! With no suspension!!! With SRAM (yuk)!!!
either way, you're buying chinese frames. The only question is, which quality-control stands behind it. But honestly: just look at how much wiggle-room the seat-posts have in Canyon frames. Yeah...
Elves and brands alike are building/maintaining a reputation and while it proves Chinese parts are fine for use the price is getting higher, in my opinion, a carbon frame shouldn't be invested in on a budget, the benefits of carbon is weight and stiffness, which affordable frames lack and a well made aluminium one will outperform in, carbon wheelsets for example however, provide great benefits and Chinese brands of no name produce well made things, as for delamination and poor QC, only the very cheap have that issue, I even bought a £30 carbon fork and the quality down the tube was excellent, whether the prongs themselves were the same I don't know but bristols roads are rough yet it's tactile and taking the potholes comfortably, carbon is at a stage where you can produce it in your kitchen, even cheap parts are effective, just not the best.
Jeez, what possesses people to waste their own time, and yours, with negativity when this is wholesome and informative content. First time stumbling across your vids, but a straight up sub. Gonna enjoy poking around the uploads list.
nice mate thanks for the info ❤️ you and gc p snd hambini is the best content in cycling especially in budget frame and wheels to give more idea to build
Hey Cam….. once again a cracking video!! TBH Was getting bored on the windspace bikes so these are something different and interesting to hear on Chinese bike frames!!! BUT I would never complain to you about it….. at the end of the day your doing us all a favour researching these for us because money is getting tight for the big €€€s for the mainstream brands!!! So 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 to you!! 😍 from 🇮🇪
These videos are 100% more interesting and more relevant to the vast majority of people who don't want to drop 10k on a bike. With so many different direct from China frames out there, it's good to see which ones offer the best value/quality. If I want to see the same old marketing BS about the latest Specialized/Trek/Canyon I'll just go and watch a GCN video.
Keep these projects coming! 👍
I just discovered your channel at TH-cam and I really liked the video of the Chinese bike frames. You are doing very well and keep the videos coming to have a good time in our free time