In the aircraft industry, a very fine layer of glass is used as a visibilty layer for crack detection. It is exceedingly difficult to see hairline cracks or stress marks in carbon, while glass has an easy to see white marks. Personally in high stress locations, I'd prefer to see a layer of glass in there.
There is one more very big reason to use glass fiber in the steerer (and not elsewhere) it is that the modulus of glass is much lower but the elongation at break is much (3 to 4 times) higher. In practice, that means that in normal use the carbon is the one carrying pretty much all the load and the glass fiber will just stretch and carry very little load... But if you have a big crash or hit a big pot hole or another large object on the road the carbon with snap at something like 2% elongation while it will take about 7% elongation to break the glass fiber... That can very well make the difference between a fork that snaps off clean immediately and one that gets crushed but with the fork remaining attached to the steerer because of the glass fiber... If there is one place on a bike that you nevr want to snap off clean it is the fork steerer, guarranteed face plant... Also, do not call it "fiberglass" which usually refers to much cheaper and lower property glass fiber reinforced polyester resin used in boats while this is glass fiber reinforced with the same epoxy resin used with the carbon fiber...
I'd be pretty sure the failure model you suggest would not happen. A crash of this sort is a load dominated failure, which would cascade through the whole lot in short order. It the video is correct that sacrificial glass/epoxy being woven cloth there would be additional issues during complex bending/tension failures.
I'd love to get a "what actually matters" with these types of videos. What will lead to me riding down the road and have the frame spontaneously collapse, burst into flames, leaving me to get eaten by a tiger, vs. "it's just not perfect, but it's fine". The focus on BB area has been enlightening, the nice even circles and all of that makes sense, but what's the point where it matters? I know "fine" is hard to quantify, I'm 151 pounds and my fine may be far more tolerable than a 250 pound rider that slams ruts and potholes and such. But, give me a level of what matters on some level.
A similar occurrence happened to a friend. His frame didn't combust but it got so hot, he had to jump off and because he was getting burned he jumped into the ocean and then was eaten by a shark. Takeaway is...in life, sometimes better to be lucky than good.
As a composites guy, I have no issues with glass fiber being used in steerer tubes. It may be unnecessary in terms of preventing corrosion if a titanium expansion plug system is used, though. As for what the frame is called, "composite" would be an all-encompassing term. I recall some high end brands (Time?) also use other materials like kevlar for impact resistance in their layups too.
Time and Wilier now use a LCP like Vectran ( for Time ) .Bianchi use Countervail .But again in the case of Time it's about Braided Carbon Structure (BCS)
My Falath was supplied with an out of spec c-ring headset adapter (interface between the upper race and the first spacer). I wasn't even aware of this except they sent me an email asking me to check the frame for chipping of the paint. There was very minor chipping of the paint around the top of the headtube. Long story short - they are sending me a second frame. Very happy to have purchased from them considering the original frame is fine.
I can't really see what the issue is here....The fork tube has a layer of fibreglass that will prevent corrosion and make it stiffer, adding less than 10grams of weight. Then saying "Its expected for a heavy frame" . My all up race weight falath evo is 7.8kg with wahoo roam/pedals/bottle cages. What weight was he expecting for a fully aero race bike?
Thanks for the great leg work on the F.G. in the steer tube. In the marine industry, where corrosion is a huge issue, carbon rudder posts, carbon booms, carbon masts, and carbon spin poles are all buffered with F.G. where stainless fittings are attached. The carbon will cause corrosion of the metal surfaces in short order. I just assembled a Falath frame and was happy to see your video with the FG interior of the steer tube as I used a metal tensioner internally.
Yeah. I searched his previous videos with the mainstream brands and did not see the same level of checking the way he's doing with these Asian brands. :/
@@WashichawbachaW People must understand that the channel is evolving and adding more complexity to the videos (Also involving more professionals or potentially raising the budget for in-depth analysis). It doesn't mean that there is an attempt to prove that Elves is not as good as the big brands.
@@alexkerslake4613 The problem is that there are a lot of viewers who don't contribute with not 1 single penny and expect to receive the absolute top notch content for free. You wanna get the most accurate, complete information that suites you for free and thinking that just because you are watching the video you are making a great favor for the TH-camr. I think Cam Nicholls has brought great informational videos and great professionals to share knowledge here in this channel, and many people are thankful for his Good content.
@@lucasherculano5563 that's where you're wrong, bro. This is TH-cam and views is money. So basically we are giving him money by just watching his content. Also, he doesn't need to spend loads of money for a review of a mainstream brand. He got his own bikes from a mainstream brand. He can show that to us for a start.
Aside from stiffness/weight issues, for this consumer the most important consideration is how the use or absence of fiberglass impacts the longevity of the frame, especially regarding galvanic corrosion. I'd love to see a look back at the life expectancy of 5, 10, 15 year old carbon frames based on their choice of materials for things like bottom bracket shells and dropouts on rim brake frames.
Would love to see you shine the same light on BMC's reputation for fork failures & recalls, misaligned rear triangles, and their crazy threaded foam steerer filler. But that won't happen, will it ... P.S. the fibreglass layer inside is a normal and good thing - regardless of overall quality.
I wonder why the employees at companies with heinous histories don't say anything about their employer's history... 🙄 Whenever you're ready to sacrifice you're income, BY ALL MEANS, take the first step...
While the depth of analysis on these frames is impressive, we are overlooking the bigger picture concerning the product and the purpose of these reviews. I would argue that these frames offer an incredibly good value for their price, as the quality, performance, and aesthetic output surpass what else is on the market for their cost bracket. As an owner of the Falath, I can confidently state that my experience with the frame has been flawless, with the exception of a minor overspray (non)issue, for my custom paint job. The notion that a small sleeve of fiberglass, which serves to prevent galvanic corrosion, is considered a weight penalty is laughable, given its weight of 5-10 grams.
The bigger picture, IMO, is whether these cheaper frames are in-fact cheaper quality. I think Cam is answering that question in this video series. Of course as an owner, you want to believe that you beat the system by buying a cheaper frame with no compromises. We'll see.
@@bluemystic7501 I think that is certainly part of it, and yeah we will have to see what his verdict is. I just don't necessarily agree with the angle at which he is presenting the content, referring to these frames as 'cheap' comes with natural negative connotations. Ultimately, in an industry that is wildly overpriced, more affordable options that also offer high-end performance is surely no bad thing? I'd be happily proven wrong, if my frame were to snap then I sleep comfortably knowing that I have a comprehensive warranty on it.
Well, established brands all have major quality issues. Bianchi's new handlebars breaking, Canyon's seat post collapsing... I would rather pay a fraction of the price knowing that it can have a few gremlins, than pay for over priced garbage.
Hmm interesting, I've cut two Cannondale Hi Mod steerers, a Cube and a Winspace Steerer and can confirm they are all carbon all the way through. I wasn't aware of fibreglass being used in carbon frames in the structural areas. I've heard of it being a barrier between differing metals. Nice video Cam, thanks.
If it's safe to ride and rides well, why would it matter? I think it is totally fair for a more budget brand to make more budget focussed material choices. In the end you roughly know the weight of the frame+fork, the penalty of the fiberglass is simply it will be heavier. I rather would have fiberglass in the fork than brake mounts that are not aligned, bearing seats that are too small or too large and everything else that can go wrong in frame production...
I agree with you, it doesn't really matter. I think the point is that the bike companies should just be up front about it. "Hey, on these models there's a bit of fiberglass in the steerer tube and here's why...". I've never heard of fiberglass being used anywhere on a carbon bike, but now knowing why, I don't have a problem with it. Setting expectations and being transparent with the consumer is important.
Because its about informed consent and misrepresentation. If a frame says carbon fork, you expect a carbon fork. If there's fiber glass, it should be made obvious for the purchaser to see. When its not obvious, that's when people start getting skeptical. This is, once again, Chinese marketing failing to comprehend western consumer mindset.
@@cjohnson3836 that would simply be stupid from a manufacturers point of view. How many people would then not buy the frame because a few sheets of glass and instead buy another carbon frame that is full of defects and voids and what not? Building a frame is not magic, you either spend a lot or save on material choice or production quality.
@@Horstelin I couldn't give a rats fuck. People deserve to know what they're buying. Fuck anyone that thinks otherwise. Also, I think you're wrong. Plenty of brands marketing different materials. And, everything in your post from "...and instead..." is supposition and non sequitur. You could have saved the time and just not typed it because its irrelevant and adds nothing to conversation.
@@Horstelin Those cheap Chinese manufacturers have already a small clients base, this is nerdy stuff territory. You're gonna loose them if you're being dishonest (as they are here bullshitting with the fiber glass), end of story. And, this is not covered in this video but bear in mind all the obvious manufacturing problems in the bb/headset area. This is the recipe for a creaky machine.
My bike mechanic/husband overheard what you were saying and thankfully was interested enough to chat with me about this. Most curious to me was that although he has not seen fiberglass in the steerer tubes, he does mention galvanic corrosion as being the reason for seized seat posts. So, reminder from a bike mechanic to remove and inspect periodically.
Yes, you got me thinking about my aluminum bike with carbon seat post now which was already a tight fit (need to pour boiling water over seat tube before attempting to adjust seat post).
Great work! Interesting that they paid more attention to the seat post portion on the anonymous buy. Maybe it's not a no compromise frame but you got to appreciate the value that it offers. Looking forward to the "on bike" review
an official answer from an elves bike Please be reassured that having a thin layer of fibre glass inside the fork steerer is quite common in the manufacture of carbon fibre forks, at all levels, as indicated by the independent industry expert at the end of the Cam Nichols video and has two purposes. 1. Reaming of the inside of the fork steerer: The inside of the fork steerer needs to be reamed to ensure that it is perfectly round to accepts the expander plug. Carbon fibre is too hard to be effectively reamed, so the thin layer of fibre glass allows the inside of the fork steerer to be correctly reamed for a perfect match to the expander plug. 2. Galvanic corrosion. Carbon fibre and metals such as aluminium have a habit of bonding together over time. Fibre glass does not have the same issue. The expander plug used on Elves Bikes, like most brands, is aluminium. To ensure that the expander plug does not corrode and bond to the inside of the fork steerer, the same thin layer of fibre glass is used to place a barrier between 2. Galvanic corrosion. Carbon fibre and metals such as aluminium have a habit of bonding together over time. Fibre glass does not have the same issue. The expander plug used on Elves Bikes, like most brands, is aluminium. To ensure that the expander plug does not corrode and bond to the inside of the fork steerer, the same thin layer of fibre glass is used to place a barrier between the aluminium expander plug and the carbon fork tube. With regards to weight, this thin layer of fibre glass adds less than 10 grams to the weight of the fork, but the benefits to the consumer are significant when it comes to maintenance and longevity of the frame.
Honestly, I kinda prefer the glasfiber being there. Low weight is severely overappreciated in the cycling community and galvanic corrosion is one hell of a bitch, especially when you are dealing with expensive stuff, that you don't want to break. In regards to weight: Yes, the lower the better, but there is a point where the tradeoff in stuff as longevity, usability and aero is just too significant to ignore (unless you are professionally racing and have mechanic or a sponsorship, that makes you not give a shit about durability)
I think that main thing is that they are not lying about the weight and the safety is not compromised. Some brands put aluminium steerer tubes on carbon fork.
Yep, my 20+ year old GT ZR3.0 has a carbon fork with aluminum steer tube, it is miles better than the aluminum fork that came on the original frame which was warranteed for cracking around the head tube. No issues with the fork nor can I even notice any difference due to an aluminum steerer.
A great video packed with quality information i have said it before NO other platform is doing this or even coming close Thank you Cam & RCA keep them coming please my personal choice Alloy all the way .
Maybe it’s an education thing. If there’s valid engineering reasons like galvanic corrosion but the masses are ignorant of this they may demand a full carbon fork etc which is inferior due to the corrosion, which they don’t appreciate. Which I guess would be a marketing problem. Get the public to want the fork that has glass fibre so that it helps prevent corrosion.
Hey Cam, I have been riding my Falath Evo for about a month now and it has been excellent. I do a crit in Austin, Texas and it holds up under power well in the p1/2/3 field. Overall I can say it’s a great bike. It’s interesting to see you share these details about carbon frames! My personal opinion is that the bike rides great, and I feel that as long as the bike is safe to ride, the differences in a full carbon steerer versus one with fiberglass are going to be negligible for anyone who isn’t racing professionally and putting insane stress on the bike through repeated sprints and stuff like that
Thanks for this investigation and all the tech industry information from your experts Cam and the comments below. The use of fibre glass now obviously makes sense with metal contact areas. As a consumer its nice to understand this though as we are often marketed too, while not giving us all the facts. Very helpful to understand.
I wonder how many "normal" brands owners, who claims that is a shit frame, look inside their frames and searching layers of fiberglass or measure thickness of carbon 😉😉
Just like that video of remco's sl7 being pinched and bending all over. People need to understand that a 1000€ isn't the same as a 3000€ or 5000€ frame. But as you cut the middle retailers, you will have a 85% of the quality at 1000€ as you have on 5000€. Perhaps this asian brands investing more on quality control and they will rule the market very soon.
Two of the advantages given for a layer of glass are both significant. The dielectric barrier between carbon and metal inserts to prevent galvanic corrosion is huge. The thin glass veil to facilitate visual crack detection, may be less critical.
Not any more it ain't. "It's now a proprietary eponym, a brand name that, due to its popularity or significance, has become the generic name for the product it represents." and was really only applied to spun glass insulation and not GRP composites.
I have bought 4 Elves frames direct... all excellent. The fiberglass internal can insulate the aluminum compression plug from the carbon in the steerer tube... The falath pro rival my DOGMA F12. I'd never by a $5-6k frame again.
Kudos to Cam for properly examining this frame , especially his fairness in handling it. Agree that manufacturers need to be more transparent. Looking forward to the ride review
Yeah, I feel like many, but especially the Asian, marketing don't understand western consumers. Tell us what's in it. And tell us why you did it. Not only does it win points with transparency but then the bike geeks have even more to munch on, everyone learns something, and its an opportunity to throw in more marketing. Vittoria is a good example. I don't really think graphene is necessarily making their tires better, but they sure as shit get to market it. And people like that stuff.
The puristic approach can get a bit crazy in my opinion. Cycling may have gone modern, but it hasn't lost it's mysticism. Will you lose a race because of some fibreglass in the steerer. It's whatever you think it is.
Another way to look at it is, you can spend 500 USD on a Velobuild frame, Chinese, or twice as much (if not more) on a Elves frame. What more do you get when you spend 2x more? That's what's unclear to me. You can also spend 10x that and get a Factor frame, and ofc, the same question applies. I've recently built 4 Velobuild bikes, they're great, & it's unclear to me why i'd spend more on frames.
@@myxti3669 Their 066 model says 840g in XS. But less weight means less carbon means less stiff, unless you really know what you're doing. And we have a video here of Elves using fiberglass instead of carbon to cut corners. I'm staying away from ultra light frames: i'm big.
@@pierrex3226 I'm 70kg and Vanyar just as stiff as any other bike. They also claim 740g blah blah, but end result is 912g with hardware for painted size 52 frame.
@@myxti3669 ah, at your weight, it makes sense to worry about weight much more than me for sure! And yes, I would expect expensive brands to make lighter stuff at a given stiffness. But for the vast majority of people, 250g of frame weight more or less will be largely irrelevant. And I'm not sure Elves lays carbon better than the latest velobuild models.
Cam , That review / investigation was so in depth and informative I can only thank you for the work you are doing by enlightening us to new and upcoming brands but also holding them to account as well as the more established brands . If bike brands are watching this then they need to be careful how they describe their products as we as consumers are demanding transparency especially for our hard earned money . Thanks again ,keep out the great content ,I’ll keep watching 👍🏾
I have closely examined some Specialized frames as a bike store owner that were even worse finishing inside the frame and delamination than than any cheap Chinese frame I have ever seen. Just saying.
Careful with that type of ultrasonic thickness measurement, it could easily pick up an air bubble and makes it look like de-lamination or thin wall. It uses the first to second interface detected to measure thickness.
I'm wondering if you're also interested in looking at their other frames, particularly the Eglath, which is marketed as an all-rounder. I wish that frameset got more reviews since it looks amazing, plus the geometry has a less aggressive stack, which would favor more non-race-y people.
I am interested in Eglath as well. The thing is the say it is an all-rounder but actually the geometry seems to be pretty aggressive, even more than their racy bikes. But we must remember that stack and reach do not decide entirely about the bike characteristics, seatpost angle is also important and maybe that makes Eglath more comfortable to drive. In reviews people say it is great to ride!
@@MarianBobolny Elves geometry chart is all over the place. I know as I have 3 and one more (the Evo) coming in. The Eglath is a very comfortable balanced bike as intended. Don't trust the geometry. The feel is also very cushioned compared to the Vanyar and Falath Pro.
I far few years ago I had a flagship De Rosa King 3 which had fibreglass in the integrated seat post. A small hole had to be drilled for the clamping mechanism once the seat post was cut to length. My De Rosa Merak which was supposedly a lower spec frame had a similar integrated seat post, but no fibreglass.
Super interesting video. Detailed but easy to understand. Agree with some of the thoughts below wondering how mainstream brands would perform, but your mate at the carbon shop definitely had lots of forks to choose from. Tough to draw any "is it safe, will it last" conclusions but I think I still will stay to the big brands (even though I acknowledge they all probably come from the same factories!)
People want high end products for low money, you cannot have the penny and the bun I’m afraid, as long as it looks good and is structurally sound it’s ok to accept cost cutting.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I really appreciated all of that information. And I agree 100% with you regarding bike companies just being honest with us. A little bit of fiberglass in the steerer tube wouldn't be a big deal if they explained why it was used, but saying nothing and then having the consumer find fiberglass on their supposed carbon bike, well, you can understand why that might make people angry. Thanks for the video Cam, and I look forward to the follow ups.
Good luck with transparency. This might be the manufacturer's trade secret to make their forks more resistant to breakage. Lauf fork use fiber glass in their leaf spring which is virtually unbreakable. Fishing rods made of FG can flex to infinity without breaking as compared to carbon graphite counterpart.
I used to work in an aircraft prototyping shop and we would use fiberglass as an isolation layer when bonding carbon to aluminum, to prevent galvanic corrosion. I wonder if that is what was being done with the steerer?
That was a really fasinating video. I have also seen one of a carbon frame being made and you can see why some bits of roughness will always end up inside the frame. The use of glass fibre makes sence now. Thanks for posting this.
Carbon fibre reinforced composites are stiffer, but glass fibre is stronger. So where there are different stresses, different composites will be used, for instance in archery the bows tend to be glass and the arrows carbon.
Carbon corrosion in the same manner as dissimilar metal corrosion is something not talked about often but does take place and should be of concern. Especially in wet environments.
There is probably a bit of pressure on the manufacturing side from the middle men to keep the cost down. I thought about an Elves frame but decided to go direct to China and bought a Hyyge model S. Oh and the bit at the beginning when he says the top of the resin is pulled of probably was peel ply removal. A very well respected laminating process... I use it on a regular basis for carbon and glass
I have been riding my Elves Falath Evo for about a month now. With zero issues. I regard it as one of the best riding and handling bikes I've ever tried. My most recent bike includes the Canyon Aeroad disc, Giant TCR Advanced disc, BMC Roadmachine 01, BMC Teammachine SLR disc and Felt FR1 disc. If someone, for some reason, calls the Elves build quality and materials crap, I would counter that by saying it's way better than the sum of it's parts. Because Elves is quite frankly selling the Falath Evo too cheap.
Why would you even ride this garbage bikes at the first place? The list of bikes you mentioned there and ended up with this crap? I don't get the logic.
@@johnbossus I like to try new stuff. As mentioned, my Elves is as good as, if not better than any of the other bikes I've owned, all of which had their own quality or engineering related problems. Canyon in particular had lots of quality related problems.
@@johnbossus I rode a bunch of Italians before and I now only buy cheap Chinese frames cuz their performance is just that good now. Clearly you're not updated.
Hockey sticks cannot generally be 100% carbon for a host of reasons and expect some Fibre glass in the makeup. I see no reason why bikes should be any different particularly around galvanic corrosion risks. However - this is acknowledged in the specifications of the hockey stick i.e. "90% carbon" 5% aramid 5% X etc. In the bike world this is also requested or we end up with manufacturing fraud as seen here. Personally I don't care what they use, carbon, GF whatever, if it's stiff, light, and fit for purpose that's all fine, just say so.
Great video your channel is ace. I’ve been watching videos on this frame for a while. I am thinking of building my first bike and want to use this frame. I think given the price point I am ok with the glass given your investigation results. Now I want to know how it performs!!
I just want to say I really appreciate these videos. You've taught me a lot. Thank You so much. Out of curiosity, I checked 3 carbon steerers I have on hand. A 2013 flagship Merida definitely has unidirectional carbon in there, a Canyon Ultimate from mid 2010s has regular 3k carbon weave and a 2016 Canyon Endurace has something that doesn't really look like carbon, most likely black colored fiberglass.
Yes not making it clear that there is some glass can be seen as deceptive. But what is the right level of info that the consumer should have? Should the modulus of the particular grade of carbon be listed (not all carbon is the same by a long shot)? Should the different fabric weaves be listed? What about the details of the matrix, that will probably by epoxy, but which and how hard it is? I do agree that the more specialist the bike is then the more info should be given.
What comes through my mind immediately regarding corrosion - have you guys ever seen a "big" brand bike frame with fiberglass in the headtube where the bearings sit? Or around the fork crown? Or corrosion of those bearings is not actually an issue only the expander? To me it does not make sense but this is just based on my limited experience. Another thought is that it sounds like some manufacturers are using fiberglass to compensate for poor manufacturing tolerances by machining/reaming these surfaces. I don't think applying a small layer of glass fiber makes much difference in terms of manufacturing costs, it sounds like this is all about being able to compensate for lower quality carbon moulding.
What a great video Cam. I believe at the end of the day, you get what you pay for. I know for certain that my 2023 BMC teammachine SLR01 carbon fork steerer tube is definately full carbon.
@@MarianBobolny I have all the Elves. It's an all rounder for sure. But I take the Vanyar for long rides just cuz it's way stiffer and the Falath Pro for city peloton. So I sold the Eglath cuz I haven't used it for a year.
I'm not a bike guy (thanks youtube algorithm though!) or a carbon guy but have experience as a product design engineer. There can be numerous design decisions to make at every turn for products, even down to seemingly trivial parts. There is always a compromise at some point as timescales, price, expected longevity, intended use all play a role in what decision you come to. It has made me realise that, as a consumer, we sometimes jump to conclusions unfairly. Anyway, enjoyed watching :)
@CamNicholls HEY, that was MY post about the fiberlgass in the Ridley Steerer tube! What a cool surprise to see my Ridley fork (and kitchen table) in your video! I wound up returning that frame/fork for a full refund. It also conviced me to stick with frames with long track records, and from major companies that I could sue in the event of a failure :-) BTW, does this mean I get some @CamNicholls bling or something? A Cam-O-Matic-Tshirt perhaps?!
As a guy who just went through a threaded BB insert separating from my frame after 4 years of riding, I almost wish my frame had some fiberglass down there. I wonder if it was indeed galvanic corrosion that helped it along.
I'd love to hear what percentage is glass fiber. 1 layer of 5 but only used in a couple key places is different than something using all but the outside layer glass fiber.
Sounds like fiberglass is a good option for different areas of the bike, as long as you can bond it effectively to the carbon. I'm not upset about the fiberglass in the same way that I'm not upset my car uses both steel and aluminum. Sometimes you want the properties of one or the other. I don't drink 100% pure alcohol. If you're crazy about the status symbol of the composition instead of the capabilities of the product, you have the wrong hobby.
I bought a carbon fibre bike, a cyclecross, for a stiffer frame as I am big guy; it racks like crazy under load. Afterwards, I found out that for a little more, I could have had a custom titanium frame.
I think my view is that i just want clarity from all manufacturers of what theyre doing and why. Im no engineer so im likely never going to fully understand the full ins an outs of why manufacturers use certain materials in certain places, without their clarification. So if they have a good clear reason for (in this example) using fibreglass then be my guest, as long as its not at the expense of my safety or risk of the bike breaking etc. I should definitely say thanks to Cam for this video, im currently looking and possibly purchasing an Elves bike but have been waitijg for the reviews etc, before pulling the trigger. I guess ill wait a little longer.
The bottom line is you get what you pay for. I bought a frame from Elves and it had noticeable defects. Their answer was doesn't worry it has a warrantee. With these frames you're not going to get good quality control. The upside is they are a fraction of the price of name brands. Are they good enough? That depends on ones price to quality tolerance.
Is there any noticeable difference between a 50/50% carbon and 100% one? Will the 50/50 one be less prone to cracking for example? Or would you need to both ends with fiberglass? The weight doesn't matter though. If you buy a frame you already bought it with the specified weight.
Im no biker, but as a consumer in general, transparency is a big factor for me. If im told one thing about something, then find out (on my own or through others) that its something different, it pushes me away from that particular brand on everything they build. If its made a certain way, at least be honest and up front about it.
This is going to set the cat amongst the pigeons. The good thing is this may push Elves to change the product, or else, towards transparency. It’s so surprising that no one else has caught this on TH-cam (independent reviewing my arse)
I don't think he was knocking anyone or a particular brand. To me it seems he's just stating facts and what he's been told from many different sources in the field...Although I'm always happy to know that no matter the subject, TH-cam has millions of experts for every single thing no matter how small and i enjoy reading the opinions.
Doesn't matter. Even my $450 Ali cheap carbon frames held exceedingly well in tours thru even gravels with nothing loose, cracked, or chipping. Of course you can always pay for a "peace of mind" by paying $5k+ for a frame. Bottomline nobody can prove how much less durable in real life the Elves compared to a Dogma or a $450 frame.
The more I see about carbon frames, wheels, etc the more it makes me think, I'm sticking with Aluminium or Steel. I'm a big guy and if I don't trust what I'm riding, I ain't riding! Obviously there's the cost factor too! Aluminium bikes are cheaper. It's a win win. I'm old, I don't race, I'm big, I'm not bothered about saving 500 gramms. Thanks for your films. Really interesting. I like that you speak to various people rather than some guy who turns out to be your best mate. 👍
I was considering buying this frame but the weird geometry scared me off. I'd have to ride it to make sure it fits me. In addition it is heavy. I'm not as picky about that as I used to be but it's hard to give up the attractiveness of a super light weight bike.
Hi @donwinston If you are willing to invest a bit in lightweigth parts, you can also trim donw the falathe evo to 7.14kg. Like mine in size 52. It is aero, light and fast
Using a small amount of glass fibre for the interfacing with metal components makes sense. But that tube had it throughout. Definitely feel it was more of a cost saving thing than structural. Unless you are buying top of the range you are probably better off with a modern aluminium frame. On these cheaper frames you are paying carbon prices for what is effectively nicely painted trash. I expect some of these 'good value' brands are making more profit than some of the big boys, doing things properly is costly.
In the aircraft industry, a very fine layer of glass is used as a visibilty layer for crack detection. It is exceedingly difficult to see hairline cracks or stress marks in carbon, while glass has an easy to see white marks. Personally in high stress locations, I'd prefer to see a layer of glass in there.
How many people do you know routinely remove their expansion plug to visually inspect the steerer?
@@cup_and_cone After a crash or impact I would
You would also see a huge increase in price
Glass is algo used in layups because It has more breakage elongation. Providing a tougher layup. In academic literature they call It pseudo ductility.
@@Rafael-vu2xn yes, but not because it would increase cost much (a handful of dollars). There'd be a huge increase in warranty claims.
There is one more very big reason to use glass fiber in the steerer (and not elsewhere) it is that the modulus of glass is much lower but the elongation at break is much (3 to 4 times) higher. In practice, that means that in normal use the carbon is the one carrying pretty much all the load and the glass fiber will just stretch and carry very little load... But if you have a big crash or hit a big pot hole or another large object on the road the carbon with snap at something like 2% elongation while it will take about 7% elongation to break the glass fiber... That can very well make the difference between a fork that snaps off clean immediately and one that gets crushed but with the fork remaining attached to the steerer because of the glass fiber... If there is one place on a bike that you nevr want to snap off clean it is the fork steerer, guarranteed face plant... Also, do not call it "fiberglass" which usually refers to much cheaper and lower property glass fiber reinforced polyester resin used in boats while this is glass fiber reinforced with the same epoxy resin used with the carbon fiber...
I'd be pretty sure the failure model you suggest would not happen. A crash of this sort is a load dominated failure, which would cascade through the whole lot in short order.
It the video is correct that sacrificial glass/epoxy being woven cloth there would be additional issues during complex bending/tension failures.
These were my thoughts as well. Although I wish there wasn't so much delamination
I just ride alu frame rather
I'd love to get a "what actually matters" with these types of videos. What will lead to me riding down the road and have the frame spontaneously collapse, burst into flames, leaving me to get eaten by a tiger, vs. "it's just not perfect, but it's fine". The focus on BB area has been enlightening, the nice even circles and all of that makes sense, but what's the point where it matters? I know "fine" is hard to quantify, I'm 151 pounds and my fine may be far more tolerable than a 250 pound rider that slams ruts and potholes and such. But, give me a level of what matters on some level.
A similar occurrence happened to a friend. His frame didn't combust but it got so hot, he had to jump off and because he was getting burned he jumped into the ocean and then was eaten by a shark.
Takeaway is...in life, sometimes better to be lucky than good.
As a composites guy, I have no issues with glass fiber being used in steerer tubes. It may be unnecessary in terms of preventing corrosion if a titanium expansion plug system is used, though. As for what the frame is called, "composite" would be an all-encompassing term. I recall some high end brands (Time?) also use other materials like kevlar for impact resistance in their layups too.
Time and Wilier now use a LCP like Vectran ( for Time ) .Bianchi use Countervail .But again in the case of Time it's about Braided Carbon Structure (BCS)
I have PBO+carbon fiber frame，it's more impact-resistance。😎
Composite indeed. Time now uses Dyneema for reinforcing the carbon mesh.
@@tonyg3091 it is not easy to bond UHMPE to the resin
@@peterocks88 yeah I know but the strands seem to be few and far between so that might help dunno
My Falath was supplied with an out of spec c-ring headset adapter (interface between the upper race and the first spacer). I wasn't even aware of this except they sent me an email asking me to check the frame for chipping of the paint. There was very minor chipping of the paint around the top of the headtube.
Long story short - they are sending me a second frame. Very happy to have purchased from them considering the original frame is fine.
Did you have to return the first one? Or you keep it and use it?
@@neutronshiva2498 He gets to keep it.
I can't really see what the issue is here....The fork tube has a layer of fibreglass that will prevent corrosion and make it stiffer, adding less than 10grams of weight. Then saying "Its expected for a heavy frame" . My all up race weight falath evo is 7.8kg with wahoo roam/pedals/bottle cages. What weight was he expecting for a fully aero race bike?
Is there even an issue with a heavy aero race bike as proven by multiple sites and tests? It would be for a climbing bike...
Thanks for the great leg work on the F.G. in the steer tube. In the marine industry, where corrosion is a huge issue, carbon rudder posts, carbon booms, carbon masts, and carbon spin poles are all buffered with F.G. where stainless fittings are attached. The carbon will cause corrosion of the metal surfaces in short order. I just assembled a Falath frame and was happy to see your video with the FG interior of the steer tube as I used a metal tensioner internally.
I can’t help but wonder if mainstream carbon frames would also stand up to such scrutiny
Yeah. I searched his previous videos with the mainstream brands and did not see the same level of checking the way he's doing with these Asian brands. :/
absolutely not - but that doesn't make 'good' content
@@WashichawbachaW People must understand that the channel is evolving and adding more complexity to the videos (Also involving more professionals or potentially raising the budget for in-depth analysis). It doesn't mean that there is an attempt to prove that Elves is not as good as the big brands.
@@alexkerslake4613 The problem is that there are a lot of viewers who don't contribute with not 1 single penny and expect to receive the absolute top notch content for free. You wanna get the most accurate, complete information that suites you for free and thinking that just because you are watching the video you are making a great favor for the TH-camr.
I think Cam Nicholls has brought great informational videos and great professionals to share knowledge here in this channel, and many people are thankful for his Good content.
@@lucasherculano5563 that's where you're wrong, bro. This is TH-cam and views is money. So basically we are giving him money by just watching his content. Also, he doesn't need to spend loads of money for a review of a mainstream brand. He got his own bikes from a mainstream brand. He can show that to us for a start.
Aside from stiffness/weight issues, for this consumer the most important consideration is how the use or absence of fiberglass impacts the longevity of the frame, especially regarding galvanic corrosion. I'd love to see a look back at the life expectancy of 5, 10, 15 year old carbon frames based on their choice of materials for things like bottom bracket shells and dropouts on rim brake frames.
Would love to see you shine the same light on BMC's reputation for fork failures & recalls, misaligned rear triangles, and their crazy threaded foam steerer filler. But that won't happen, will it ... P.S. the fibreglass layer inside is a normal and good thing - regardless of overall quality.
あい😊
@camnichols wouldn't want to loose his ambassadorship influencer right ?
Savage...lol. What about BMC's unimpeachable engineering pedigree Cam shills on his channel?
YT hambini
I wonder why the employees at companies with heinous histories don't say anything about their employer's history... 🙄
Whenever you're ready to sacrifice you're income, BY ALL MEANS, take the first step...
While the depth of analysis on these frames is impressive, we are overlooking the bigger picture concerning the product and the purpose of these reviews. I would argue that these frames offer an incredibly good value for their price, as the quality, performance, and aesthetic output surpass what else is on the market for their cost bracket. As an owner of the Falath, I can confidently state that my experience with the frame has been flawless, with the exception of a minor overspray (non)issue, for my custom paint job.
The notion that a small sleeve of fiberglass, which serves to prevent galvanic corrosion, is considered a weight penalty is laughable, given its weight of 5-10 grams.
The bigger picture, IMO, is whether these cheaper frames are in-fact cheaper quality. I think Cam is answering that question in this video series. Of course as an owner, you want to believe that you beat the system by buying a cheaper frame with no compromises. We'll see.
@@bluemystic7501 I think that is certainly part of it, and yeah we will have to see what his verdict is. I just don't necessarily agree with the angle at which he is presenting the content, referring to these frames as 'cheap' comes with natural negative connotations. Ultimately, in an industry that is wildly overpriced, more affordable options that also offer high-end performance is surely no bad thing?
I'd be happily proven wrong, if my frame were to snap then I sleep comfortably knowing that I have a comprehensive warranty on it.
Well, established brands all have major quality issues. Bianchi's new handlebars breaking, Canyon's seat post collapsing... I would rather pay a fraction of the price knowing that it can have a few gremlins, than pay for over priced garbage.
@@alexkerslake4613 Well, high-end performance (and quality) is debatable. We'll see.
Enjoy your cheap garbage
Hmm interesting, I've cut two Cannondale Hi Mod steerers, a Cube and a Winspace Steerer and can confirm they are all carbon all the way through. I wasn't aware of fibreglass being used in carbon frames in the structural areas. I've heard of it being a barrier between differing metals. Nice video Cam, thanks.
What I'm most impressed by is their transparency in the customer support. Their answers sound factual, not like a cop-out
If it's safe to ride and rides well, why would it matter? I think it is totally fair for a more budget brand to make more budget focussed material choices. In the end you roughly know the weight of the frame+fork, the penalty of the fiberglass is simply it will be heavier. I rather would have fiberglass in the fork than brake mounts that are not aligned, bearing seats that are too small or too large and everything else that can go wrong in frame production...
I agree with you, it doesn't really matter. I think the point is that the bike companies should just be up front about it. "Hey, on these models there's a bit of fiberglass in the steerer tube and here's why...". I've never heard of fiberglass being used anywhere on a carbon bike, but now knowing why, I don't have a problem with it. Setting expectations and being transparent with the consumer is important.
Because its about informed consent and misrepresentation. If a frame says carbon fork, you expect a carbon fork. If there's fiber glass, it should be made obvious for the purchaser to see. When its not obvious, that's when people start getting skeptical. This is, once again, Chinese marketing failing to comprehend western consumer mindset.
@@cjohnson3836 that would simply be stupid from a manufacturers point of view. How many people would then not buy the frame because a few sheets of glass and instead buy another carbon frame that is full of defects and voids and what not? Building a frame is not magic, you either spend a lot or save on material choice or production quality.
@@Horstelin I couldn't give a rats fuck. People deserve to know what they're buying. Fuck anyone that thinks otherwise. Also, I think you're wrong. Plenty of brands marketing different materials. And, everything in your post from "...and instead..." is supposition and non sequitur. You could have saved the time and just not typed it because its irrelevant and adds nothing to conversation.
@@Horstelin Those cheap Chinese manufacturers have already a small clients base, this is nerdy stuff territory. You're gonna loose them if you're being dishonest (as they are here bullshitting with the fiber glass), end of story.
And, this is not covered in this video but bear in mind all the obvious manufacturing problems in the bb/headset area. This is the recipe for a creaky machine.
My bike mechanic/husband overheard what you were saying and thankfully was interested enough to chat with me about this. Most curious to me was that although he has not seen fiberglass in the steerer tubes, he does mention galvanic corrosion as being the reason for seized seat posts. So, reminder from a bike mechanic to remove and inspect periodically.
Yes, you got me thinking about my aluminum bike with carbon seat post now which was already a tight fit (need to pour boiling water over seat tube before attempting to adjust seat post).
Great work! Interesting that they paid more attention to the seat post portion on the anonymous buy. Maybe it's not a no compromise frame but you got to appreciate the value that it offers. Looking forward to the "on bike" review
an official answer from an elves bike
Please be reassured that having a thin layer of fibre glass inside the fork steerer is quite common in the manufacture of carbon fibre forks, at all levels, as indicated by the independent industry expert at the end of the Cam Nichols video and has two purposes.
1. Reaming of the inside of the fork steerer: The inside of the fork steerer needs to be reamed to ensure that it is perfectly round to accepts the expander plug. Carbon fibre is too hard to be effectively reamed, so the thin layer of fibre glass allows the inside of the fork steerer to be correctly reamed for a perfect match to the expander plug.
2. Galvanic corrosion. Carbon fibre and metals such as aluminium have a habit of bonding together over time. Fibre glass does not have the same issue. The expander plug used on Elves Bikes, like most brands, is aluminium. To ensure that the expander plug does not corrode and bond to the inside of the fork steerer, the same thin layer of fibre glass is used to place a barrier between
2. Galvanic corrosion. Carbon fibre and metals such as aluminium have a habit of bonding together over time. Fibre glass does not have the same issue. The expander plug used on Elves Bikes, like most brands, is aluminium. To ensure that the expander plug does not corrode and bond to the inside of the fork steerer, the same thin layer of fibre glass is used to place a barrier between the aluminium expander plug and the carbon fork tube.
With regards to weight, this thin layer of fibre glass adds less than 10 grams to the weight of the fork, but the benefits to the consumer are significant when it comes to maintenance and longevity of the frame.
Honestly, I kinda prefer the glasfiber being there. Low weight is severely overappreciated in the cycling community and galvanic corrosion is one hell of a bitch, especially when you are dealing with expensive stuff, that you don't want to break.
In regards to weight: Yes, the lower the better, but there is a point where the tradeoff in stuff as longevity, usability and aero is just too significant to ignore (unless you are professionally racing and have mechanic or a sponsorship, that makes you not give a shit about durability)
That’s a lot of effort for an interesting conversation starter. Thanks for the effort, always love your videos
Cam, love the info you are presenting here and they way you are doing it. You are really shining right now. Keep up the good work.
I think that main thing is that they are not lying about the weight and the safety is not compromised. Some brands put aluminium steerer tubes on carbon fork.
Yep, my 20+ year old GT ZR3.0 has a carbon fork with aluminum steer tube, it is miles better than the aluminum fork that came on the original frame which was warranteed for cracking around the head tube. No issues with the fork nor can I even notice any difference due to an aluminum steerer.
The reputable brands have the aluminum steerer listed in the frame specs though. Its transparent.
A great video packed with quality information i have said it before NO other platform is doing this or even coming close Thank you Cam & RCA keep them coming please my personal choice Alloy all the way .
Maybe it’s an education thing. If there’s valid engineering reasons like galvanic corrosion but the masses are ignorant of this they may demand a full carbon fork etc which is inferior due to the corrosion, which they don’t appreciate.
Which I guess would be a marketing problem. Get the public to want the fork that has glass fibre so that it helps prevent corrosion.
Hey Cam, I have been riding my Falath Evo for about a month now and it has been excellent. I do a crit in Austin, Texas and it holds up under power well in the p1/2/3 field. Overall I can say it’s a great bike. It’s interesting to see you share these details about carbon frames! My personal opinion is that the bike rides great, and I feel that as long as the bike is safe to ride, the differences in a full carbon steerer versus one with fiberglass are going to be negligible for anyone who isn’t racing professionally and putting insane stress on the bike through repeated sprints and stuff like that
I've got family in Austin. What crits do you enjoy?
I own three Falath pro frames - excellent... I use them over my Dogma F12
@@SkylarsRnD I usually drive to Austin for the Driveway Austin crits
Thanks for this investigation and all the tech industry information from your experts Cam and the comments below. The use of fibre glass now obviously makes sense with metal contact areas. As a consumer its nice to understand this though as we are often marketed too, while not giving us all the facts. Very helpful to understand.
I wonder how many "normal" brands owners, who claims that is a shit frame, look inside their frames and searching layers of fiberglass or measure thickness of carbon 😉😉
Just like that video of remco's sl7 being pinched and bending all over. People need to understand that a 1000€ isn't the same as a 3000€ or 5000€ frame. But as you cut the middle retailers, you will have a 85% of the quality at 1000€ as you have on 5000€. Perhaps this asian brands investing more on quality control and they will rule the market very soon.
Two of the advantages given for a layer of glass are both significant. The dielectric barrier between carbon and metal inserts to prevent galvanic corrosion is huge. The thin glass veil to facilitate visual crack detection, may be less critical.
Now we need an update on the Polygon.
Glass fibre is the correct term. Fibreglass is a trademark.
Not any more it ain't. "It's now a proprietary eponym, a brand name that, due to its popularity or significance, has become the generic name for the product it represents." and was really only applied to spun glass insulation and not GRP composites.
Cheap forks use glass instead of quality mandrel layup in carbon, plenty of brands use a glass layer around inserts or as a facing.
I have bought 4 Elves frames direct... all excellent. The fiberglass internal can insulate the aluminum compression plug from the carbon in the steerer tube... The falath pro rival my DOGMA F12. I'd never by a $5-6k frame again.
Kudos to Cam for properly examining this frame , especially his fairness in handling it. Agree that manufacturers need to be more transparent. Looking forward to the ride review
Yeah, I feel like many, but especially the Asian, marketing don't understand western consumers. Tell us what's in it. And tell us why you did it. Not only does it win points with transparency but then the bike geeks have even more to munch on, everyone learns something, and its an opportunity to throw in more marketing. Vittoria is a good example. I don't really think graphene is necessarily making their tires better, but they sure as shit get to market it. And people like that stuff.
The puristic approach can get a bit crazy in my opinion. Cycling may have gone modern, but it hasn't lost it's mysticism. Will you lose a race because of some fibreglass in the steerer. It's whatever you think it is.
Another way to look at it is, you can spend 500 USD on a Velobuild frame, Chinese, or twice as much (if not more) on a Elves frame. What more do you get when you spend 2x more? That's what's unclear to me. You can also spend 10x that and get a Factor frame, and ofc, the same question applies. I've recently built 4 Velobuild bikes, they're great, & it's unclear to me why i'd spend more on frames.
Weight. Does velobuild have a 900g frame and 320g fork on a rim brake model size S?
@@myxti3669 Their 066 model says 840g in XS. But less weight means less carbon means less stiff, unless you really know what you're doing. And we have a video here of Elves using fiberglass instead of carbon to cut corners. I'm staying away from ultra light frames: i'm big.
@@pierrex3226 I'm 70kg and Vanyar just as stiff as any other bike. They also claim 740g blah blah, but end result is 912g with hardware for painted size 52 frame.
@@myxti3669 ah, at your weight, it makes sense to worry about weight much more than me for sure! And yes, I would expect expensive brands to make lighter stuff at a given stiffness. But for the vast majority of people, 250g of frame weight more or less will be largely irrelevant. And I'm not sure Elves lays carbon better than the latest velobuild models.
Cam ,
That review / investigation was so in depth and informative I can only thank you for the work you are doing by enlightening us to new and upcoming brands but also holding them to account as well as the more established brands .
If bike brands are watching this then they need to be careful how they describe their products as we as consumers are demanding transparency especially for our hard earned money .
Thanks again ,keep out the great content ,I’ll keep watching 👍🏾
Unfortunately, he seems to be doing this only for Chinese frames because Mainstream frames are too expensive for him to buy.
This isn't really that in depth. You can actually test the carbon % destructively, something some magazines used to do for skiing sticks etc..
I have closely examined some Specialized frames as a bike store owner that were even worse finishing inside the frame and delamination than than any cheap Chinese frame I have ever seen. Just saying.
lol
Careful with that type of ultrasonic thickness measurement, it could easily pick up an air bubble and makes it look like de-lamination or thin wall.
It uses the first to second interface detected to measure thickness.
Thanks Cam. Has been worth the wait.
I'm wondering if you're also interested in looking at their other frames, particularly the Eglath, which is marketed as an all-rounder. I wish that frameset got more reviews since it looks amazing, plus the geometry has a less aggressive stack, which would favor more non-race-y people.
Bro it is an aggressive bike, low stack high reach, making you bend and stretch like a road racer
I am interested in Eglath as well. The thing is the say it is an all-rounder but actually the geometry seems to be pretty aggressive, even more than their racy bikes. But we must remember that stack and reach do not decide entirely about the bike characteristics, seatpost angle is also important and maybe that makes Eglath more comfortable to drive. In reviews people say it is great to ride!
@@MarianBobolny Elves geometry chart is all over the place. I know as I have 3 and one more (the Evo) coming in. The Eglath is a very comfortable balanced bike as intended. Don't trust the geometry. The feel is also very cushioned compared to the Vanyar and Falath Pro.
@@thebespokecyclist3624 Thanks for the info on the Eglath! It just makes me want to get an Eglath even more now (I'm still saving up)
I far few years ago I had a flagship De Rosa King 3 which had fibreglass in the integrated seat post. A small hole had to be drilled for the clamping mechanism once the seat post was cut to length.
My De Rosa Merak which was supposedly a lower spec frame had a similar integrated seat post, but no fibreglass.
Great video very interesting. You are exactly right manufacturers should share out all components of the frame.
Super interesting video. Detailed but easy to understand. Agree with some of the thoughts below wondering how mainstream brands would perform, but your mate at the carbon shop definitely had lots of forks to choose from. Tough to draw any "is it safe, will it last" conclusions but I think I still will stay to the big brands (even though I acknowledge they all probably come from the same factories!)
People want high end products for low money, you cannot have the penny and the bun I’m afraid, as long as it looks good and is structurally sound it’s ok to accept cost cutting.
Top bucket video. Groovy work, Cam and crew.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I really appreciated all of that information. And I agree 100% with you regarding bike companies just being honest with us. A little bit of fiberglass in the steerer tube wouldn't be a big deal if they explained why it was used, but saying nothing and then having the consumer find fiberglass on their supposed carbon bike, well, you can understand why that might make people angry. Thanks for the video Cam, and I look forward to the follow ups.
I've previously found fibreglass in the downtube of a Yeti mountain bike. They aren't exactly cheap frames either....
Good luck with transparency. This might be the manufacturer's trade secret to make their forks more resistant to breakage. Lauf fork use fiber glass in their leaf spring which is virtually unbreakable. Fishing rods made of FG can flex to infinity without breaking as compared to carbon graphite counterpart.
My Cervelo has glass fiber in the fork
Interesting and informative as always. Worth watching to the end.
I used to work in an aircraft prototyping shop and we would use fiberglass as an isolation layer when bonding carbon to aluminum, to prevent galvanic corrosion. I wonder if that is what was being done with the steerer?
Freak man, that bike is gorgeous I can't express the feeling with only words
That was a really fasinating video. I have also seen one of a carbon frame being made and you can see why some bits of roughness will always end up inside the frame. The use of glass fibre makes sence now. Thanks for posting this.
Carbon fibre reinforced composites are stiffer, but glass fibre is stronger. So where there are different stresses, different composites will be used, for instance in archery the bows tend to be glass and the arrows carbon.
Carbon corrosion in the same manner as dissimilar metal corrosion is something not talked about often but does take place and should be of concern. Especially in wet environments.
There is probably a bit of pressure on the manufacturing side from the middle men to keep the cost down.
I thought about an Elves frame but decided to go direct to China and bought a Hyyge model S.
Oh and the bit at the beginning when he says the top of the resin is pulled of probably was peel ply removal. A very well respected laminating process... I use it on a regular basis for carbon and glass
I have been riding my Elves Falath Evo for about a month now. With zero issues. I regard it as one of the best riding and handling bikes I've ever tried. My most recent bike includes the Canyon Aeroad disc, Giant TCR Advanced disc, BMC Roadmachine 01, BMC Teammachine SLR disc and Felt FR1 disc. If someone, for some reason, calls the Elves build quality and materials crap, I would counter that by saying it's way better than the sum of it's parts. Because Elves is quite frankly selling the Falath Evo too cheap.
Why would you even ride this garbage bikes at the first place? The list of bikes you mentioned there and ended up with this crap? I don't get the logic.
@@johnbossus I like to try new stuff. As mentioned, my Elves is as good as, if not better than any of the other bikes I've owned, all of which had their own quality or engineering related problems. Canyon in particular had lots of quality related problems.
@@johnbossus I rode a bunch of Italians before and I now only buy cheap Chinese frames cuz their performance is just that good now. Clearly you're not updated.
Ridley basically buying its framesets from chinese oem manufactures. So yeah, that's why you only found in on Ridley forks.
That Paint job is SICK!!!!
Hockey sticks cannot generally be 100% carbon for a host of reasons and expect some Fibre glass in the makeup. I see no reason why bikes should be any different particularly around galvanic corrosion risks. However - this is acknowledged in the specifications of the hockey stick i.e. "90% carbon" 5% aramid 5% X etc. In the bike world this is also requested or we end up with manufacturing fraud as seen here. Personally I don't care what they use, carbon, GF whatever, if it's stiff, light, and fit for purpose that's all fine, just say so.
They just have to tell us, otherwise its just fraud
Great video your channel is ace. I’ve been watching videos on this frame for a while. I am thinking of building my first bike and want to use this frame. I think given the price point I am ok with the glass given your investigation results. Now I want to know how it performs!!
I just want to say I really appreciate these videos. You've taught me a lot. Thank You so much. Out of curiosity, I checked 3 carbon steerers I have on hand. A 2013 flagship Merida definitely has unidirectional carbon in there, a Canyon Ultimate from mid 2010s has regular 3k carbon weave and a 2016 Canyon Endurace has something that doesn't really look like carbon, most likely black colored fiberglass.
Forget the glass fibre steerer more concerning was the layup variation and if that effects the frame’s strength and integrity.
Glass fibre refers to the fibers, be they in a mat or individual format, fibre glass refers to a complete composite, glass fibers and resin.
Yes not making it clear that there is some glass can be seen as deceptive. But what is the right level of info that the consumer should have? Should the modulus of the particular grade of carbon be listed (not all carbon is the same by a long shot)? Should the different fabric weaves be listed? What about the details of the matrix, that will probably by epoxy, but which and how hard it is? I do agree that the more specialist the bike is then the more info should be given.
I've got quite a nice lauf fork which also has a fiberglass layer inside the steerer tube
Sorry but with all the various elements to this video I'm struggling to understand the conclusion. Was quality of the new frame good or crap?
What comes through my mind immediately regarding corrosion - have you guys ever seen a "big" brand bike frame with fiberglass in the headtube where the bearings sit? Or around the fork crown? Or corrosion of those bearings is not actually an issue only the expander? To me it does not make sense but this is just based on my limited experience. Another thought is that it sounds like some manufacturers are using fiberglass to compensate for poor manufacturing tolerances by machining/reaming these surfaces. I don't think applying a small layer of glass fiber makes much difference in terms of manufacturing costs, it sounds like this is all about being able to compensate for lower quality carbon moulding.
What a great video Cam. I believe at the end of the day, you get what you pay for. I know for certain that my 2023 BMC teammachine SLR01 carbon fork steerer tube is definately full carbon.
I ordered an Elves Eglath frame. It took 3 weeks to arrive in the uk!
How is it? I am very much thinking about buying the same frame.
Yes, tell us more about the Eglath! The say it is a all-rounder but the geometry seems to be pretty aggressive, even more than in Elves' racy frames.
@@MarianBobolny I have all the Elves. It's an all rounder for sure. But I take the Vanyar for long rides just cuz it's way stiffer and the Falath Pro for city peloton. So I sold the Eglath cuz I haven't used it for a year.
@@thebespokecyclist3624 I am wondering why the Eglath is not as popular as Falath, not even close.
@@MarianBobolny Nobody buys all rounders. They want lightest or aero as if they race every other day.
I've been waiting for more Elves related content!
I would really like to see you testing and reviewing Elves Eglath!
I'm not a bike guy (thanks youtube algorithm though!) or a carbon guy but have experience as a product design engineer.
There can be numerous design decisions to make at every turn for products, even down to seemingly trivial parts. There is always a compromise at some point as timescales, price, expected longevity, intended use all play a role in what decision you come to.
It has made me realise that, as a consumer, we sometimes jump to conclusions unfairly.
Anyway, enjoyed watching :)
@CamNicholls HEY, that was MY post about the fiberlgass in the Ridley Steerer tube! What a cool surprise to see my Ridley fork (and kitchen table) in your video! I wound up returning that frame/fork for a full refund. It also conviced me to stick with frames with long track records, and from major companies that I could sue in the event of a failure :-) BTW, does this mean I get some @CamNicholls bling or something? A Cam-O-Matic-Tshirt perhaps?!
I actually would have thought Ridley does tick the box for being a company with a long track record to frame design and manufacture….
@@EddyCat1234 read their history, they have had financial trouble and need to make a buck any way they can
As a guy who just went through a threaded BB insert separating from my frame after 4 years of riding, I almost wish my frame had some fiberglass down there. I wonder if it was indeed galvanic corrosion that helped it along.
You should consider raising the anchor point for your car's shoulder belt. It looks to be a bit low.
I'd love to hear what percentage is glass fiber. 1 layer of 5 but only used in a couple key places is different than something using all but the outside layer glass fiber.
I've got a knew logo for you.
The three unwise monkeys.
See all evils...tell all evils...hear all evils.
Keep having fun!
We need it!
4:11 That's a really nice color combo! 😃👍
Except the bartape. I think it should match the color of the saddle. 😉
Sounds like fiberglass is a good option for different areas of the bike, as long as you can bond it effectively to the carbon. I'm not upset about the fiberglass in the same way that I'm not upset my car uses both steel and aluminum. Sometimes you want the properties of one or the other.
I don't drink 100% pure alcohol. If you're crazy about the status symbol of the composition instead of the capabilities of the product, you have the wrong hobby.
solid video man! agree with your point on transparency from bike company to consumer - it would be nice to know the ins and outs!
I bought a carbon fibre bike, a cyclecross, for a stiffer frame as I am big guy; it racks like crazy under load. Afterwards, I found out that for a little more, I could have had a custom titanium frame.
It's a wonder why we don't see more foberglass in bottom brackets if it reduces/stops galvanic corrosion. Thanks Cam.
I think my view is that i just want clarity from all manufacturers of what theyre doing and why. Im no engineer so im likely never going to fully understand the full ins an outs of why manufacturers use certain materials in certain places, without their clarification. So if they have a good clear reason for (in this example) using fibreglass then be my guest, as long as its not at the expense of my safety or risk of the bike breaking etc.
I should definitely say thanks to Cam for this video, im currently looking and possibly purchasing an Elves bike but have been waitijg for the reviews etc, before pulling the trigger. I guess ill wait a little longer.
The bottom line is you get what you pay for. I bought a frame from Elves and it had noticeable defects. Their answer was doesn't worry it has a warrantee. With these frames you're not going to get good quality control. The upside is they are a fraction of the price of name brands. Are they good enough? That depends on ones price to quality tolerance.
Is there any noticeable difference between a 50/50% carbon and 100% one? Will the 50/50 one be less prone to cracking for example? Or would you need to both ends with fiberglass?
The weight doesn't matter though. If you buy a frame you already bought it with the specified weight.
Nice review ... Now can you the same prospection with your BMC ?
Excellent video worth waiting for!
Im no biker, but as a consumer in general, transparency is a big factor for me. If im told one thing about something, then find out (on my own or through others) that its something different, it pushes me away from that particular brand on everything they build. If its made a certain way, at least be honest and up front about it.
This is going to set the cat amongst the pigeons. The good thing is this may push Elves to change the product, or else, towards transparency. It’s so surprising that no one else has caught this on TH-cam (independent reviewing my arse)
No, it's really no big deal at all.
I don't think he was knocking anyone or a particular brand. To me it seems he's just stating facts and what he's been told from many different sources in the field...Although I'm always happy to know that no matter the subject, TH-cam has millions of experts for every single thing no matter how small and i enjoy reading the opinions.
- Dude, why you didn't appear on group ride last week?
- Steerer of fork got stale so I've stopped riding my bike while new fork arrives.
kudos. looking fwd for such scrutiny check on other mainstream bikes, too.
Doesn't matter. Even my $450 Ali cheap carbon frames held exceedingly well in tours thru even gravels with nothing loose, cracked, or chipping. Of course you can always pay for a "peace of mind" by paying $5k+ for a frame. Bottomline nobody can prove how much less durable in real life the Elves compared to a Dogma or a $450 frame.
So, what is the best Chinese carbon frame to buy? Meaning strong construction, won't break apart.
The more I see about carbon frames, wheels, etc the more it makes me think, I'm sticking with Aluminium or Steel. I'm a big guy and if I don't trust what I'm riding, I ain't riding! Obviously there's the cost factor too! Aluminium bikes are cheaper. It's a win win. I'm old, I don't race, I'm big, I'm not bothered about saving 500 gramms. Thanks for your films. Really interesting. I like that you speak to various people rather than some guy who turns out to be your best mate. 👍
my falath pro steerer tube is full carbon , dont have fiber glass
Love to see a compare and contract of Elves versus Winspace .....
Have you seen a current gen S6Evo…has fiberglass in the fork steer. The bike is really nice and I don’t shite on it for that.
I was considering buying this frame but the weird geometry scared me off. I'd have to ride it to make sure it fits me. In addition it is heavy. I'm not as picky about that as I used to be but it's hard to give up the attractiveness of a super light weight bike.
Hi @donwinston If you are willing to invest a bit in lightweigth parts, you can also trim donw the falathe evo to 7.14kg. Like mine in size 52. It is aero, light and fast
Using a small amount of glass fibre for the interfacing with metal components makes sense. But that tube had it throughout. Definitely feel it was more of a cost saving thing than structural. Unless you are buying top of the range you are probably better off with a modern aluminium frame. On these cheaper frames you are paying carbon prices for what is effectively nicely painted trash. I expect some of these 'good value' brands are making more profit than some of the big boys, doing things properly is costly.
I believe with Giant bikes, the advanced versions have a fiberglass steerer and the advanced pro's do not.
Great video Cam 👍